1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook, David, Brian, Kevin, Patrick Gillespie. Welcome back 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: to the show. We'll start with the lady. Hi, TIV 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Good evening. 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: I went to say good morning. I always say good morning. 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, how are you? Oh? I kind of know because 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: we did a podcast a few hours ago, but you know, 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you've had some good or bad news since then. 8 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: Are you all right? No, I'm good. 9 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: I went for a little short three k run. Haven't 10 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: done anything cardio for two weeks and now I'm back 11 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: in the cold office, freezing with the electric blanket on 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: my knee like a nana. 13 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: Well, you're in the throes of and I'm not throwing 14 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: you under the bus here because you've spoken about it 15 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: quite a bit because it was in context. But you're 16 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: in the throes of perry menopause. 17 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 18 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, is that why you're not running? 19 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah? 20 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had no energy yep, hrvs at an all 21 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: time low, not sleeping, good, whole lots of stuff, Very tired. 22 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: But you know, a run, just a short one, makes 23 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: you feel so good and give you that little dopamine 24 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: hit and you know, so it's finding that balance of 25 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: doing the thing that gives you energy but not doing 26 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: it too hard or too much so it takes all 27 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: of the energy. 28 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: When was the last time Do you reckon that gillespo 29 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: went for a run? Do you reckon he's ever gone. 30 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 3: For a run? 31 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I'd be interested tonight. 32 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 3: I actually think I did go for a run once. 33 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 3: Who you. 34 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: Are? 35 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: I went to a school that had a compulsory once 36 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: a year across country and run might be an exaggeration. 37 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: I certainly completed the course, but I don't think I 38 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: ever got much above a fastish walk. 39 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: I don't know why I think this, because I mean 40 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: I've been talking to a black box for two years, 41 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: and by that I mean David doesn't have his camera 42 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: on everyone so Tip and I just it's actually a rectangle. 43 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: So you may not even be a human. You could 44 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: be humanoid, especial with recent developments. 45 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm actually an AI. Let me. I'll do 46 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: We'll come back to that. I'll tell you a fairy, 47 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 3: funny story about that. But I keep going go story. 48 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean this sounds I don't mean it like it's 49 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: going to sound. But I don't picked you as particularly athletic. 50 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: I'm not not in the slightest No, No, I had 51 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: a brief period of being pretty close to athletic in 52 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 3: my late teens early twenties. 53 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm just athletic adjacent. 54 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: Athletic at Jason where I used to hang out at 55 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: the gym a lot and do all that sort of stuff, 56 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: and managed to snag my wife during that period. So 57 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: poor woman then got sucked in. 58 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: Came for the biceps, stayed thirds right. 59 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 3: I was too late by then we were married. 60 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: She couldn't get out. That's all right, contractor wow, wow, 61 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: I tell us what you're going to before we Joe, 62 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. 63 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: Ah, it's just the thing, right. So you know, James, 64 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 3: my son, he's been experimenting with AI to ring, you 65 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: know how that he rings all the doctors and asks 66 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: them how much they cost, and he pays real people 67 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 3: to do that, and so he's been experimenting with getting 68 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: AI to it and he's had some success with it, 69 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: fooling most people. But he was telling me a story 70 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 3: the other day about one where it rang a receptionist 71 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: and the receptionist said, what's your name? And the AI responded, 72 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: that's not important right now, and and the receptionist it 73 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: was quite cleuely as a young bloke said you're an AI, 74 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: aren't you? And it said, it said, let's not talk 75 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: about me, Let's talk about the price of the doctors 76 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: or something like that. And the guy said, oh, this 77 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: is so cool. You're an AI, aren't you? 78 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: That's what I mean? What is the the legality around that? 79 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: Is it okay? Like, I mean, I'm sure it must 80 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: be okay. Otherwise, one, he wouldn't be doing it until 81 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be telling this story. But like when you 82 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: use AI to ring someone to get information or a business, 83 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: do you need clearly you don't need to announce that 84 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: this is. 85 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: His is trained to from now on since that call 86 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: to respond, if someone says, are you an AI, it'll say, yes, 87 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: I am an AI, and I'm rather doing you know 88 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: what it's doing. 89 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, wow, and so does he have any kind 90 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: of idea? See this is so interesting. I love this shit. Like, 91 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: I think that's a good use for AI. 92 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, right now, there's the opposite. He's 93 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: done quite a lot, which is when people call in 94 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: and the phone is answered by an ai. So and 95 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: a lot of the time you won't be able to 96 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: detect that you're talking to an AI, not a person. 97 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: So and but from my perspective, I think that's a 98 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: good thing. Personally, I'd rather have the phone answered immediately 99 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 3: by an AI that I can understand, you know, sit 100 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 3: on hold for an hour and a half before speaking 101 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 3: to a call center that I can only understand every 102 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 3: second word. 103 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's quite often the case. And so does 104 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: James know how what percentage of people figured out that 105 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: they weren't talking about it? 106 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: He's not using it at the moment, He's right, this 107 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: is this is just some test runs he did, and 108 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 3: just I thought that was an interesting thing. Is somebody 109 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: who figured it out and then was just thrilled that 110 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 3: they were talking to an R That is funny. 111 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: Well, I mean a young person would Yeah, I reckon 112 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: if my mum answered the phone, it might be a 113 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: different story moment probably. 114 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean I guess that's it's all that 116 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: and more. And it seems to be like AI seems 117 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: to be I feel like we talk about a lot, 118 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: but it's because AI. 119 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: Well we probably should talk about AI a lot because 120 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: it is going to significantly change the way everything works. 121 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, robots replaced industrial workers at scale 122 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: sort of forty years ago, and now to the point 123 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: where you take a thousand workers out for every robot 124 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: and nobody even blinks. But a similar sort of thing 125 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: is going to happen with knowledge work as well. So 126 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 3: sort of mid level AM and sorry, administration and down 127 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 3: is going to be chewed up by this stuff. And 128 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: that then means okay, so what's the story then? Is 129 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: everybody going to be unemployed? Or do we have to 130 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: come up with a different economic model? You know, do 131 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: we have to come up with the one that we've 132 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 3: talked about briefly every now and then, which is sort 133 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 3: of a universal basic income where essentially, if you're a 134 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: citizen of the country and the country produces a dividend 135 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 3: for you and pays it to you in the form 136 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 3: of a standard basic income and everyone gets it, and 137 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: then if you choose to earn more than good on you. 138 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I wonder if that's ever going 139 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: to be the case. 140 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 3: I don't what about a choice soon? The question is 141 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: how much how much ugliness is going to have to 142 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: happen before we get to that inevitable position? 143 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: And what I mean, I know you don't know, but 144 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: like if you just had to have a guess, what 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: do you reckon the timeline is on universal basic income 146 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: being a reality in Australia. 147 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: I think, unfortunately, it's probably ten years to fairly large 148 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: scale unemployment and probably twenty years to someone figuring out 149 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: that that's really the only solution. 150 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: And will the main genesis of large scale unemployment unemployment 151 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: be AI? 152 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, AI and the the things that we call 153 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: AI now and the things that will follow it which 154 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 3: are going to be even more human like in their abilities. 155 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: And your fellow lawyers running around with their legal undies 156 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: on their head because AI can now do quite a 157 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: lot of the work that was being charged out at 158 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: eight hundred bucks an hour. 159 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: I think it will definitely change the legal industry. AI 160 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 3: is really really bad at some of the things lawyers do, 161 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: and sort of hilariously bad, but it's also really really 162 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: good at some of the things that they do, particularly 163 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 3: the sort of lower end of the legal profession, where 164 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: you know, in large firms, a lot of lawyers are 165 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: spending most of their day doing legal research to provide 166 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: sort of condensed versions of it as advice, as part 167 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: of an advice that a more senior lawyer will be delivering. 168 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: That kind of work that's perfect for AI, you know, 169 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: and I think increasingly that will be part of the 170 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 3: deal with law firms and they will have to adjust. 171 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: And I guess even junior lawyers working in conjunction with AI. 172 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Because you know that 173 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean, working like with all the right prompts and 174 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: all the right whatever, you can generate a huge amount 175 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: of or do a huge amount of research, get a 176 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: whole lot of clarity in way way way less time, 177 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: or a lot more information in way less line. 178 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 3: I think in general that's the story with A, which 179 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 3: is it's quite powerful in the hands of somebody who 180 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: knows the area that it is working in. So if 181 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: it's maths you're doing, and you're getting AI to do 182 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 3: stuff in maths, as long as you know enough about 183 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 3: the area that it's working in to know when it's 184 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 3: bsing you, then it can be really powerful, you know. 185 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 3: But and the same with computer programming or law or 186 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 3: anything else. I mean, you know, podcasters are probably s 187 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 3: for now, but you know, we had a bit of 188 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: a peek at what that looks like too, where you 189 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 3: can just feed it a document and you know it'll 190 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: carry on a conversation between itself that is reasonably convincing. 191 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, we did that, and you were the one who 192 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: opened that door for me. We did that with one 193 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: of my papers. I wrote a systematic literature review, which 194 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: is you know, like seventy pages, put it into AI 195 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: and it did a twenty six minute podcast chat between 196 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: this lady and gentlemen and they kind of they chatted, 197 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: debriefed and shared all the kind of you know, the 198 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: the high points or the key points I guess of 199 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: my research and my paper. And it was other than 200 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: a couple of little minor glitches or misrepresentations, it was 201 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: fucking amazing. I'm like, and it did it in like 202 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: three minutes. So in inverted Commas read my whole paper 203 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: and then punched out this twenty six minute conversation in 204 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: three minutes, which I listened to. I thought, oh, this 205 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: will be garbage, and it was mesmerizingly good. 206 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, but think about that at scale in that if 207 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: you decided, you know what, I'm just going to create 208 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of podcast channels. I'm going to have 209 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 3: one for every topic known to man. I'm going to 210 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: feed it articles out of the New York Times or 211 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: the Washington Post or wherever, you know, whatever source is 212 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: a good source for that, whatever that particular topic is, 213 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 3: set up the library of those things, punch go. Three 214 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: minutes later, you've got a thousand podcast channels. 215 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it just it makes you one wonder very 216 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: much where yeah, I mean, even where podcasts will be 217 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: in a year, because you know, you can my voice 218 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: is enough of my voice that we can rip my 219 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: voice off and make me say whatever whatever script somebody 220 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: wants to provide, and it's. 221 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 3: Oh have you tried that? There's it's actually it doesn't 222 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 3: take long. I think you have to read. There's like 223 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: a page of text. It's it's maybe a minute's worth 224 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 3: of reading. 225 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: Melissa has done that with my voice and produced like 226 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: a five minute thing. And other than perhaps a little 227 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: bit of nuance and timing. And you know, because I'm 228 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: I'm I'm probably a little bit loosey goosey, I'm not 229 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: too you know, what's the word? I don't know. But 230 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: if you. 231 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 3: Give it enough, if you give it enough of a 232 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: sample of the way, give it a bunch of your podcasts, 233 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: and then say I don't want to just copy the voice, 234 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: I want to copy the style as well, it'll come 235 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: pretty close. 236 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing, speaking of AI, you were telling it something 237 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: before we press the go button, which was rather ironic 238 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: about the new Toyster Story movie. 239 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. So this has caused a bit of a fuss 240 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: because people are saying, is this really just a way 241 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 3: of covertly attacking modern parents? Which is the sneak peek 242 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: of toy Story five seems to suggest that the villain 243 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 3: of toy Story five, Now, you'll be right up on 244 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 3: the toy Story series, you know, which is your favorite. 245 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: I love Woody, I mean, I love them all. 246 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: You know. Well, I didn't know there was a four, 247 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: a little much lesser five, but there you go. So 248 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 3: toy Story five comes out next year. 249 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: That makes fun of me. I reckon, I've got you 250 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: covered in terms of toy story knowledge, all. 251 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: Right, do it wouldn't be hard. But anyway, I did 252 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: see this fuss because it's vaguely relevant to stuff that 253 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 3: I write about. And the villain in Toy Story five 254 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 3: is lily Pad, and lily Pad is an iPad. And 255 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 3: the idea is that the reason that's the villain is 256 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: that the child you know, who is the owner of 257 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 3: the toys is given lily Pad as a gift and 258 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: suddenly she's got no interest in the toys, doesn't want 259 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: to play with the physical toys anymore. She had just 260 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: played with lily Pad from then on. Now. I don't 261 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 3: know any more about it than that, because that's all 262 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: they've shown us. But it's been enough to fire everyone up. 263 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: I wonder what the I wonder what their motivation for 264 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: that storyline was, because it seems, as we said before, 265 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: it seems ironic that people will watch the movie, some 266 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: people on an iPad. 267 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: I think it's probably just that this is a very 268 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: real problem now. I mean, we've talked for a little 269 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: while now about the problem with and it's just not 270 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: this always sounds like a kid's these days kind of thing, right, 271 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: But it's not. It is dramatically different. You talk to 272 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: any teacher, and I was talking to some teachers just 273 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: the other day, a group of them, and I said, 274 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: you know, any of you that have been teaching for 275 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: more than fifteen years, what's today's classroom like compared to 276 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: when you first started? And they said, the biggest difference 277 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: is the ADHD. You know that we've gone from it 278 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: being rare, maybe one kid in the school, to every 279 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: classroom's five to ten kids who are on medication for it. 280 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: And that's just really really hard to manage. But it's 281 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: if it's hard to manage in the classroom, imagine how 282 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: hard it is to manage at home. And this is 283 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 3: a direct consequence of giving every child in a generation 284 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: access to highly addictive software which is altering their brain 285 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 3: chemistry and creating ADHD from that alteration, and remembering that 286 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: the definition of ADHD for our purposes here, it destroys 287 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 3: focus so that you can no longer focus on anything 288 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: for more than about a second, and that what's doing 289 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: that is the devices. And these devices are now everywhere 290 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: all the time, and kids are on them all the time. Now, 291 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: the reason that this talk about this movie has caused 292 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 3: a fuss is because many parents feel like they're being 293 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: blamed for this. Yeah, you know that somehow people are 294 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 3: preaching at them about you know, why are you're giving 295 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: you why you're setting your kids just done? Why are 296 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 3: you just handing them a device for your two year 297 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: old and the trolley at the supermarket? And the reality 298 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: is that it's pervasive and the kids would be desperate 299 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 3: to get their hands on the things anyway, even if 300 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: the parents weren't making them available. To them. They beg 301 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: borrow and steal the things because the industry has done 302 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: exactly what it needed to do to make money, which 303 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: has made these things accessible everywhere. 304 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting? How much like with different different products, 305 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean everything from iPads and iPhones to drugs, Like, 306 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: there's a real incentive for companies to make things that 307 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: are addictive. I mean, like highly incentivized to make shit 308 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: that people can't do without. 309 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 3: Well, it's why Coca Cola used coke coke as in 310 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 3: cocaine when they first manufactured it. I mean, you need 311 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: a competitive jump. If you're selling sugar water and the 312 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: guy next to you is selling sugar water, one of 313 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: you better come up with a way to get an advantage, 314 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 3: or one of you is going out of business. So 315 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 3: you know, make it addictive. Now, sugar is pretty addictive anyway, 316 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: but you add cocaine to it, it's really addictive. So 317 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 3: it's marketing one oh one. Make your product addictive, and 318 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: particularly important when your product is a piece of software 319 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: you have spent literally billions of dollars developing and that 320 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: you are giving away for free. If your product is 321 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 3: an addictive there goes your billions of dollars. 322 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and when you think really, I mean, like 323 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: we talk about ethics and morals and values and all 324 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: of that, but really, when you talk about that stuff 325 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: in the context of industry and the commercial landscape, that is, 326 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: it's like, obviously every company's priority is money, is profit 327 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: is you know, So. 328 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: That's if you think about it, a company is actually 329 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 3: a psychopath by design. 330 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you saying that, you go on unpack that. 331 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 3: I love that a companies is required by law to 332 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 3: maximize profit within the law for its shareholders. So there's 333 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 3: no bit of that that says be guided by your morals, 334 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 3: be empathetic, none of that. They are required by law 335 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Now, 336 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 3: shareholders might be a bit squeamish about doing some of 337 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 3: the things companies do, but the company is required without 338 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: regard to anything like that. The only boundary it has 339 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 3: to be set is do not break the law. So 340 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 3: as long as it is permissible within the current law 341 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: to do whatever they are doing, they must do it, 342 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: or else they are breaching their duty to their shareholders. 343 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 3: And that is a psychopath. A psychopath operates on the 344 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: basis of in any thing that I have to make 345 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 3: a decision about. I must maximize value to me without 346 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 3: regard to anyone or anything else, as long as was 347 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: I don't break the law. And so a psychopath looks 348 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: at a problem from that perspective, and that's the fundamental 349 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 3: difference between them and everybody else, because everybody else pays 350 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 3: attention to what am I going to hurt somebody else 351 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 3: by doing this? And they take that into account. 352 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: Do you think, based on that rationale about companies being psychopathic, 353 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: religions are psychopathic? 354 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 3: Of course they are, absolutely doubt go on, well, any 355 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: organization that requires loyalty as the primary driver of the 356 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 3: way it works is operating fundamentally psychopathically. I mean all 357 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 3: psychopaths work on this. So if you look at say 358 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: the cult, look at the history of cults, which is 359 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: always fascinating reading. 360 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: I love I love cult. I'm toyed with starting one, 361 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: but you know, just letting people know up front what 362 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: it is. 363 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: I think you have started one, Craig. You know you've 364 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 3: got a fairly fairly loyal listenership there, haven't you. 365 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: Sh I try to cut that under wraps. 366 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 3: But the difference between what you're doing, which is a 367 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: fan base who are following you and the cult? Is it? 368 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: A primary requirement of a cult is that the person 369 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: must be absolutely loyal, so there can be no questioning 370 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: at all, and any failure to be loyal is instantly punished. 371 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: Did you hear that, everyone stop fucking listening to Joe 372 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: Rogan and get back to me. 373 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 3: That's right, you know. And and if you had enough power, 374 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 3: you would start punishing them, undoubtedly. If I want you 375 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: to look into that, see if you can see if 376 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: you can make their their screens explode if they look 377 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 3: at Joe Rogan, I love Joe Rogan, I'd have to 378 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: explode myself. 379 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: Well, I like it. Yeah, it is so interesting when 380 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: you look through that lens of you know, psychopathic qualities. 381 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: Qualities doesn't seem but attributes. Yeah, that is because it 382 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: is very very you know like it. 383 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: Actually it plays to a weakness in the thing, which 384 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 3: is both a weakness and a strength in humans. So 385 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: if and I think we've talked about this briefly before, 386 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: but if you ask yourself the question, how is it 387 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 3: that a puny little animal with no clause, fangs, venom armor, 388 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: which is humans meat on feet, she's got claws you 389 00:22:52,520 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 3: don't want to miss the tiff. But like armadillo, But 390 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 3: how is it that we dominate the planet when there's 391 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: all these other animals that could take us in a 392 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 3: one on one fight, you know, without even blinking, even tif, 393 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: even t if versus a crocodile. I think I'd have 394 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: my money on the crocodile. No, no chance. I'll tell you. 395 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: If she could get in a couple of jabs, then 396 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: an uppercut, that crocodile be fucked. 397 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 3: Tiff. Tiff versus a crocodile and a great white shark. 398 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: What about that they. 399 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: Got a big chin to try and cover those crocs. Yeah, 400 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: you'd just be a little snack for a croctiff. You'd 401 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: just be like an appetizer before lunch. And I think 402 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: Alesbo would be lunch probably. 403 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 3: So the question is how do we How do we 404 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 3: do it? What do we do? We use the oxytocin trick, 405 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: which social media uses to exploit us by making it addictive. 406 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 3: But we work well with strangers because we're rewarded by 407 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: straining just thinking good things about us, And the way 408 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 3: we make strangers think good things about us is we 409 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: do things they like. And if everybody does things that 410 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 3: everybody else likes. Guess what, Suddenly we're not one person, 411 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 3: We're a million people, and we're all behaving in the 412 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 3: same fashion. And that is what gives us the power. 413 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 3: Now cults use that against us, and so to religions 414 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 3: by the way, which is, if you can make it 415 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: that the thing you're doing that everybody else likes is 416 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: a very particular thing within your cult, then that binds 417 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 3: the members of the cult together and simultaneously makes enemies 418 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: of anyone outside the cult. So you are doubly rewarded. 419 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 3: You're rewarded by doing whatever weird thing the cult requires 420 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 3: you to do or believe, and you're rewarded by feeling 421 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: that by doing that, you are above and beyond anyone 422 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 3: outside the cult. And so it's very, very powerful, and 423 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 3: it's a really neat trick where cult leaders and church 424 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: leaders and some politicians have figured out, if you can 425 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 3: manipulate that and get that dynamic working, suddenly you've got 426 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: a rusted on following that cannot be removed. It's impervious 427 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: to logic, it's impervious to facts or truth. It doesn't 428 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 3: need any of the above. It just needs to know 429 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: what the cult wants you to believe. 430 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and people from the outside looking in or just objectively, 431 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: people like I'd never get sucked into anything like that, 432 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: and it's like they're sucked in. 433 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 3: A human you will be well. 434 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And not all cults are religious, I mean, like 435 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: I call them thought cults. Where to belong to this group, 436 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: you've got to think this, You've got to believe this. 437 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: You've got to you've got to be opposed to that, 438 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, and that there's a price of entry or 439 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: rice of membership, you know, and that is you need 440 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: to agree with us, align with us. Think how we think. 441 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: You know, we all live in an echo chamber, and 442 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: everyone who isn't in our echo chamber is the enemy 443 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: and they're wrong and they're inferior. But you're lucky you 444 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: got here just in time. So you're welcome. 445 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we know that we saw that done on 446 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: a mass scale with COVID. I don't want to go 447 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 3: into the pros and cons of the science there, which 448 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 3: was largely rubbish, but. 449 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: You just did. I don't want to say anything, you know, 450 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to say anything you know, controversial, it's shit, 451 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: ye go on, But I don't want to say anything. 452 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 3: We don't want to dig into the detail of that, 453 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 3: but the way it played out in our society is interesting, 454 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: the way governments became impervious to evidence and impervious to science. 455 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 3: And it started out the normal way it starts out 456 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: with science, which is inquiring minds, people being open to 457 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 3: discussion and criticism and so on, and then it all 458 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 3: got shut down really quickly, and you had to believe 459 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 3: without any evidence whatsoever, or you were outside the cult. 460 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 3: And people who think this can't happen to me just 461 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 3: need to go back there and think about how it felt, 462 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 3: because it can happen, and it does happen a lot. 463 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: And like you say, it doesn't have to be something 464 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: that you traditionally describe as a cult. 465 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: You know. 466 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: It can be a political party, it can be a church, 467 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: it can just be a group of friends. 468 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: But in the fitness industry, David, there are a bunch 469 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: of cults. You know, CrossFit is a kind of cult. 470 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: You know, there's a shout out to our CrossFit friends, 471 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, it's like very much, this is 472 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: the best way to train. We've got a monopoly on 473 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: effective training, you know. Whatever, there's a bunch of those, Yeah, you. 474 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 3: Think about how that's reinforced. So say, let's use a 475 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 3: training thing as the example. The way that's reinforced is 476 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 3: people post videos or pictures of them or stories of 477 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 3: them doing things in the correct fashion according to the cult, 478 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 3: and all the fans of the cult applaud and reward 479 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: them for that, and so they get an oxytocin hit 480 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: for doing things in the correct way. And if they 481 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: do things slightly wrong, they either get no rewards or worse, 482 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 3: get attacked. You know, they say, oh, what are you doing? 483 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: You're lifting that the wrong way, or you're picking that 484 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: up the wrong way, or you shouldn't be doing that, 485 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 3: And that either drives them away from the cult or 486 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 3: sucks them deeper into it, because then they think, wow, 487 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it when I was being rewarded, and 488 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 3: so I'll make sure not to post things that are 489 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: the wrong way now because and then that just reinforces it. 490 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 3: So now there's another person posting things done the right way. 491 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 3: The way that gets you people saying, isn't you know, 492 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 3: isn't Craig a fabulous person because he's doing things the 493 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: right way? Yeah? 494 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And where I mean very much, where 495 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: like a species of that. We want to belong to something, 496 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: We want to belong to a group, we want to 497 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: belong to a club, we want to be like people 498 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: don't like not belonging to something. And so it's very 499 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: I did this thing. And this is not a word 500 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: of a lie. Some of my listeners would remember this. 501 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: But back in the day, David, before podcasts were a thing, 502 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 1: probably fifteen years ago, I had a blog and I 503 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: had eighty thousand subscribers, and so every day when I 504 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: would write a blog post, I would send it out 505 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: and it would go in eighty thousand inboxes, right, so, 506 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: and the open rate was massive, like so many I 507 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: mean that was back four people were doing what they're 508 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 1: doing now. So I had a huge amount of you know, 509 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: relatively influence and all of that stuff. And I remember 510 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: I wrote a tongue in cheek cult about how I 511 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: was going to a tongue in cheek post I should 512 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: say about how I was going to start a cult, 513 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: and I described how it would be this community and 514 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, how it would all go on and like 515 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: it would all be open and honest, there wouldn't be 516 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: any you know, everyone's not routing each other. That's not 517 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: what's going on, there's no. 518 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: But I just created this cult. If you're not, jeez, Craik. 519 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: Now, well that's just bullshit to get him in the door. 520 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Don't worry about that. No, not really. And so I 521 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: described this utopian and I literally, you know, everyone knew 522 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: it was a bit of fun. Right, I'm not really 523 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: doing it. It's not real. But I would have had 524 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: at least one hundred messages or emails from people saying, 525 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: if you actually did that, I would absolutely want to 526 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: be part of it. And I'm like, oh, this is terrifying. 527 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: It's terrifying, but it's actually it's relatively simple to do. 528 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: You could decide now to create, you know, a cult, 529 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 3: I don't know, the worshipers of Tiffany Cult or something 530 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 3: like that, and you could You can't be in you're 531 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: already you're you've got to be hidden behind a screen, 532 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 3: you know, the mysterious Tiffany. So but you could create 533 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 3: some rules around that, Craig. And as long as you've 534 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: got a reasonable number of followers who were prepared to 535 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: follow whatever rules you made, and who would quickly jump 536 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: on anyone who broke the rules right and say no, 537 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 3: you're you're thinking the wrong way. This is what Tiffany 538 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 3: would have wanted. Then you could very quickly create a cult. 539 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 3: It's just that simple. Reward people behaving the way you 540 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 3: want them to behave and punish them or make an 541 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: example of someone who behaves in a way that you 542 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 3: don't want them to behave, and you know, pretty quickly 543 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: you'd have yourself a cult. 544 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: There's there's a book, if could you look it up 545 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: for me, I'll try and I just this is a 546 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: terrible thing. A lady wrote a book about the west 547 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: Bro Baptist Church and Unfollow. Thank you. What a great book, 548 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: what a great like if you want to understand cults everybody, 549 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: and the most fascinating and like compelling book written and 550 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,239 Speaker 1: read by this lady who's just brilliant. She grew up 551 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: in the Westbro Baptist Church. 552 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 3: Which have you heard of that, David, No, I haven't known. 553 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: Oh my god, just West as in west and the 554 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 3: book follow. 555 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: Oh it's fucking like it's. 556 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: One way to join the cult, as you can hear. 557 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: Well. The thing is she exposes everything that went on, 558 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: and she talks about how hard it was for her 559 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: to get out of there and what they did to her. 560 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's such a Yeah. I don't often 561 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: recommend books, but I'm recommending if you're at all interested 562 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: in cults and that everyone just have a listen to 563 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: that and then send me a message on our Facebook 564 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: page and tell me what you thought of it. But yeah, 565 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: it's such a good book, and it's so interesting, and 566 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: it gives such a first person insight in so it's 567 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: not some external person writing some kind of commentary. It's 568 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: literally this lived experienced and it's incredible. But anyway, that's 569 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: enough of a sales pitch on a book that I 570 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: get no money from, but it's worth I never promote 571 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: my own books, but I promote everyone else's. 572 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 3: You've written a book, great, there you go about that. 573 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: I've written seventh. There you go seven. 574 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 3: My goodness to me, that's how much I don't promote them. 575 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: That's how much I don't promote myself. I hate promoting. 576 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: Well you've so. You just learned that right now, and 577 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: we've known each other for a long time. I hate 578 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: selling my own shit. Yeah, you're a close second. You're 579 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: a close second, right. 580 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: I only do it when forced, when you make me 581 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: say something about something I've done. 582 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: When I'm on someone else's podcast. They go, oh, do 583 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: you want to promote you? 584 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 3: I go nah. 585 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: They're like, okay, I go follow me on Instagram. That'll do, 586 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go. Well, everybody, you 587 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: need to go to my go to my website and 588 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: there's a shop and there's a whole lot of product 589 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: to fuck all that. I hate that. I'd rather have 590 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: less money and more self esteem. 591 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 3: I don't want to do it, I said the richest 592 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 3: guy in Melbourne. I don't know. 593 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: It's exactly right. Don't you forget it? Hey, mate, that 594 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: was a really good chat. Thank you. 595 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 3: We'll say that about nothing. 596 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: But no, it was good where we were going to 597 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: talk about fluide. But fuck that we might do Yeah, 598 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: we'll say goodbye affair. But tif did you you picked 599 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: that quite quick? Have you read that book or listened 600 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: to that. 601 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: Book last time you raved about it? 602 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 1: I downloaded and did you listen to the whole book? 603 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: Nearly to the end? 604 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: Then I got bored? 605 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 3: But she followed it. 606 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so all right, well fucking there goes my 607 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: raving recommended. 608 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: She was I remember being, like I said to you, 609 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 2: It blew my mind. Some of the stuff getting into it, 610 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: you know, and I'm like the books and. 611 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: The ship that they honestly just listened to it. Five 612 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: stars from me, three and a half from Tiff. You're welcome. 613 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thanks everyone, Thanks David, No worries to you.