Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Child's sexual
Speaker 1: abuse is a hideous crime. The impact it has on
Speaker 1: victims is horrendous, and it can last a lifetime. Today's
Speaker 1: guest was abused by a step parent and the child
Speaker 1: was born from that abuse. Now, I'm sure your initial
Speaker 1: thoughts upon hearing that would probably lean towards the fact
Speaker 1: the perpetrator was a step father abusing his stepdaughter. But
Speaker 1: you would be wrong today's guest, Harrison James, was a
Speaker 1: naive thirteen year old boy when his stepmother started grooming
Speaker 1: him and sexually assaulting him. This abuse went on for
Speaker 1: three years, and the impact nearly destroyed him. It was
Speaker 1: a secret he kept for years. A child was born
Speaker 1: from the abuse, and Harrison had the live of a
Speaker 1: secret that his sister was actually his daughter. I can't
Speaker 1: even contemplate how you process what Harrison has been through,
Speaker 1: but today we have Harrison in the studio to tell
Speaker 1: us his story. Harrison James, welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me go. It's a
Speaker 2: great opportunity.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming on. Now let me clarify up front.
Speaker 1: We've spoken before. I've called you Harry or Harrison.
Speaker 3: You're right if.
Speaker 1: Either okay, Well, it'll probably drift between the two because
Speaker 1: I've got a short, short memory. I want to ask
Speaker 1: you a question up front. Do you think that society
Speaker 1: looks at child's sexual assault differently when the victim is
Speaker 1: a male?
Speaker 3: Look.
Speaker 2: I think there's a unique set of challenges that come
Speaker 2: with being a male and being a survivor of child
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. There's sort of this.
Speaker 3: Look.
Speaker 2: I'll speak from my experience and hopefully we can learn
Speaker 2: something from it. When I was going through when I
Speaker 2: was going through the healing process, it was fraught with
Speaker 2: this sort of tension. There's this expectation that society puts
Speaker 2: on men on how they should react to trauma, and
Speaker 2: then there's the flip side to that, which is the
Speaker 2: reality of how I navigated my healing. So it's this
Speaker 2: double standard and you're trying to adhere to that societal expectation,
Speaker 2: but really behind closed there's this thing that you grapple with.
Speaker 2: Am I less of a man because I went through this?
Speaker 2: Am I less of a man because I speak out?
Speaker 2: And really that understanding of you know, for me, what
Speaker 2: really helped me was coming to that understanding that there
Speaker 2: is strength and vulnerability and there is courage and empathy
Speaker 2: and speaking out and that's sort of taken me to
Speaker 2: the position that I'm able to be in today where
Speaker 2: I'm able to speak out in the way that I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it touches on a lot of issues what you
Speaker 1: just raised there about masculinity and the way that we
Speaker 1: deal with the pressures and traumas that life spits up.
Speaker 1: The reason I asked you that because it made me
Speaker 1: reading up and preparing for this podcast and what you've
Speaker 1: gone through and understanding your story. It made me reflect
Speaker 1: on a few things through my life. And I had
Speaker 1: a mate that was sexually abused as a child that
Speaker 1: when he was in high school by a teacher, and
Speaker 1: it was talked about, it was known after he left school,
Speaker 1: and there wasn't a lot of sympathy and he put
Speaker 1: on the bravado. It's almost shameful when you sit here
Speaker 1: and look back, but I'm talking a long time ago
Speaker 1: looking back, and it's oh luck guy. You know he
Speaker 1: had that happened to him and there was laughter about it,
Speaker 1: and that was all. This misinformation wasn't until he got
Speaker 1: into his forties and he lived a productive life, but
Speaker 1: there was a demon there that would surface every now
Speaker 1: and then when he was in his forties and we
Speaker 1: sat down had a heart to heart chat and he
Speaker 1: said he only realized, and this is after he's had kids,
Speaker 1: he's married and life was going on, how much it
Speaker 1: affected him and the way it changed the way he
Speaker 1: looked at life without dealing with it. And it really
Speaker 1: opened my eyes up to it that we just didn't
Speaker 1: fully understand what that type of sexual abuse. The impact
Speaker 1: that can have on young men throughout their life.
Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean that's something that I resonate with quite deeply.
Speaker 2: I mean, the impact of child sexual abuse and going
Speaker 2: through that is devastating for any child of any gender,
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying it's worse, but being a male
Speaker 2: and going through that, it just presents a unique set
Speaker 2: of challenges that we have to overcome because of those
Speaker 2: societal expectations that you just presented there. So when I
Speaker 2: was being sexually abused by my stepmother for three years,
Speaker 2: every day for three years before and after school, you know,
Speaker 2: I thought I was lucky. I thought I was living
Speaker 2: out every teenage boy's fantasy. And you know, you see
Speaker 2: things in media that just confirm that narrative as well.
Speaker 2: You see things and sorry to be crashed, but in
Speaker 2: things like pornography as well. You know, there's categories like
Speaker 2: stepmom and teen fantasy and things like that. And for
Speaker 2: me now, at the time, it was just confirming that
Speaker 2: what I went through was a good thing, something that
Speaker 2: all teenage boys should strive for, that ultimate fantasy. But
Speaker 2: now I look back on it with the benefit of hindsight,
Speaker 2: and I think that doesn't feel like a fantasy that
Speaker 2: feels like a normalization of my trauma.
Speaker 1: There's so many layers, Yeah, so many layers to it, Harrison,
Speaker 1: And it just adds to the ads, to the pressure
Speaker 1: and the confused that must you must have been going
Speaker 1: through at that stage. And yeah, I think we all
Speaker 1: need to check and realize that it's difficult being a
Speaker 1: man as it is difficult being a woman. There's certain
Speaker 1: society expectations that we fulfill.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the way the world looked at the.
Speaker 1: Type of thing that you went through, it was almost
Speaker 1: half hard that jokes would be made about it. The
Speaker 1: comedy movies would have situations in there like that. And
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting yourself sitting there thinking while you've
Speaker 1: been abused that it's not that bad and you're lucky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's crazy. Well, that's something that I went
Speaker 2: through on a daily basis. Just reiterating that, partially because
Speaker 2: now that I think, you know, maybe it made it
Speaker 2: easier to go through as well. At the time, true,
Speaker 2: but also it was just that was the standard. You know,
Speaker 2: it was if you're a teenage boy, you're getting lucky.
Speaker 2: That's the quote, right, Like you're living out every teenage
Speaker 2: boy's fantasy. And now that's something now that I speak
Speaker 2: now very publicly and share my story as I do.
Speaker 2: Part of the reason I do what I do is
Speaker 2: to let boys know and let other men know that
Speaker 2: there is that strength and vulnerability and sharing that story.
Speaker 2: And what you went through was trauma and those feelings
Speaker 2: that you're feeling but are sort of bubbling just under
Speaker 2: the surface, they're valid and there's something that need to
Speaker 2: be addressed. And I think as society we need to
Speaker 2: we need to look at this as the abuse of
Speaker 2: power across the board, because that's exactly what child sexual
Speaker 2: abuse is. It's that dynamic. It is a total abuse
Speaker 2: of power.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you take the gender out of it.
Speaker 1: That is about the power, the power in balance like
Speaker 1: a stepmother teenage boy and the confusion that that would
Speaker 1: cause you. We'll dig into that whole situation that you
Speaker 1: went through, but I just want to get an understanding
Speaker 1: of who you were before before the sexual abuse started.
Speaker 1: So tell us about your early years and the life
Speaker 1: and that who you were and who you thought you were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I was a young boy who loved
Speaker 2: his art and was quite a good drawer and was
Speaker 2: into his films, loved film. Every time there was a
Speaker 2: new film out, I had the costume and the toys
Speaker 2: and everything and would draw it all that. My mother
Speaker 2: has very fond memories of that, and she reminds me
Speaker 2: of that all the time. So there were good aspects
Speaker 2: of my childhood. And when I speak out about the
Speaker 2: TRAUMAA interface, that doesn't mitigate those good aspects either. They
Speaker 2: were there, and I'm very lucky that I had those
Speaker 2: people like my mother and my mother's parents, my grandma
Speaker 2: and my grandfather to really be a shining light and
Speaker 2: an example for me to follow. You know, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be here and be able to speak the way I
Speaker 2: do without that source of inspiration. So there was the divorce,
Speaker 2: and I didn't see my dad for a good few years,
Speaker 2: and he was remarried by that point, and to a
Speaker 2: woman from the Philippines. And that's when, you know, by
Speaker 2: the time I was thirteen, I was starting year eight.
Speaker 2: I was the oldest of four kids. You're in a
Speaker 2: house with your mother and three other kids. You know,
Speaker 2: it's and you're becoming a teenage boy. You know, you
Speaker 2: want your own space, and I wanted that father figure
Speaker 2: in my life as well. So I reached out to
Speaker 2: my dad and it went really well in the beginning.
Speaker 2: You know, he would take me to the gym. I
Speaker 2: hated the gym, but I just loved the fact that
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with my old man. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it went really well, and it got to a point
Speaker 2: where it went so well that I ended up moving
Speaker 2: in with him because it was attractive. He lived near
Speaker 2: the beach and it was right near my school. I
Speaker 2: would have my own room and like that, tick tick
Speaker 2: tick for a thirteen year old boy, that's unreal. And
Speaker 2: I moved in and I hadn't met my stepmother before
Speaker 2: I moved in. But it was a very gradual process
Speaker 2: of erosion. And there were things that was sort of
Speaker 2: maybe rub me the wrong way a little bit, but
Speaker 2: also made me think, oh, she's just trying to be
Speaker 2: a proactive mother figure type thing.
Speaker 1: Right, if I stop you there, there's so much at thirteen,
Speaker 1: You've got puberty kicking in the world is so confusing
Speaker 1: at the best of times. At that age, you don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on, the feelings, You've got the insecurities,
Speaker 1: but you're presenting as with all the bravado that comes
Speaker 1: with being a teenager. So you've moved in with your father,
Speaker 1: You've made that connection that felt right, the benefits of
Speaker 1: your own room and living beside the beach and the
Speaker 1: connection with your father, and then the step mother starts
Speaker 1: coming into your life. For kids, it's difficult when they're
Speaker 1: meeting the new partner in situations like that. What was
Speaker 1: your first impressions of your stepmother.
Speaker 2: I actually thought she was quite unassuming. Thought she was
Speaker 2: just you know, from a foreign country who came here,
Speaker 2: didn't really speak the language well, and I just thought,
Speaker 2: you know, she just kept to herself, and you know,
Speaker 2: it was sort of just the dynamic that was there.
Speaker 2: I was there to hang out with dad and she
Speaker 2: just happened to be there. So it's very unassuming, which
Speaker 2: is part of the facade that these type of offenders
Speaker 2: put on. But it was a gradual sort of erosion,
Speaker 2: as I was saying before. And she invited me to
Speaker 2: the movies one night, and again I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just and.
Speaker 3: That's tapping into your interests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And you know, also just want to put
Speaker 2: this point there so context is provided. My parents' divorce
Speaker 2: was a very very messy. It was it was I
Speaker 2: was put in a situation where I felt like I
Speaker 2: needed to choose a side as well. So there was
Speaker 2: that dynamic there that my parents were focused on the
Speaker 2: divorce and I was sort of just a product byproduct
Speaker 2: of that, and I think my stepmother saw an opportunity
Speaker 2: to pray upon that, and she filled that void by
Speaker 2: taking me to the movies. You know, I felt seen,
Speaker 2: I felt heard.
Speaker 3: I felt like, why.
Speaker 1: Are your parents are the facusy? Your parents were still
Speaker 1: sorting out the dynamics between their separation. You've got someone
Speaker 1: that's showing you kindness.
Speaker 2: And interest which has been stripped of me. And that
Speaker 2: was sort of how she weaved her way in anyway.
Speaker 2: She took me to the movies, and that's where the
Speaker 2: touching on the leg began, and the holding of the
Speaker 2: hands and putting her arm around my shoulder when we
Speaker 2: went home, and things like that. And then in a
Speaker 2: matter of days it escalated to sexual abuse.
Speaker 3: How old were you at the time, thirteen?
Speaker 1: Did you even it would have been school yard talk
Speaker 1: about sex and everything else that goes on at that
Speaker 1: age At thirteen, did you even have an understanding of
Speaker 1: what was going on? Did you have an appreciation that
Speaker 1: she was making the contact with touching your leg or
Speaker 1: holding your hand.
Speaker 2: I thought I was engaging in an affair behind my
Speaker 2: father's back. I thought I was having a consensual sexual
Speaker 2: relationship with my stepmother behind my father's back. I thought
Speaker 2: it was just a secret I needed to keep in
Speaker 2: that aspect, like don't tell my father.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So did you get a sense that something
Speaker 1: was wrong about it? And I'm not sitting here in
Speaker 1: judging you. You're the victim, and will make that point
Speaker 1: very clear throughout this podcast, But did you get a
Speaker 1: sense that something wasn't quite right or you just didn't
Speaker 1: know at that age, Because that's why I'm curious about.
Speaker 2: Of course, well the grooming and the insidious nature of it,
Speaker 2: and the preparation and the things that are the rhetoric
Speaker 2: that I was told over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: If you say anything, we could both go to jail.
Speaker 2: You're the man in this relationship, you know, preparing me
Speaker 2: for that dynamic and to feel like that's what the
Speaker 2: situation is, That's exactly what happened, and that's what I
Speaker 2: didn't feel like I was a victim of anything or
Speaker 2: like it was a crime. I thought we were just
Speaker 2: participating in an affair. Behind my father. Yeah, because of
Speaker 2: that expert grooming and that that that facade that was
Speaker 2: put upon me. And that's just not that's not a
Speaker 2: few that's not something that's said a few times. That's
Speaker 2: something that is codified in every conversation, in the entire
Speaker 2: dynamic of this. Yeah, I don't even want to call
Speaker 2: it relationships.
Speaker 3: To each other.
Speaker 1: It's not a relationship. It's a sexual abuse of minor.
Speaker 1: How did she hide it from your father or and
Speaker 1: from her point of view and your point of view
Speaker 1: of course.
Speaker 2: So my father was just starting out his new business
Speaker 2: at the time, so he was out early mornings back
Speaker 2: late afternoons. So I remember every Wednesday morning specifically, the
Speaker 2: first time it happened was on a Wednesday evening because
Speaker 2: my dad would fly to Queensland every Wednesday because he
Speaker 2: was expanding the business from New South Wales to Queensland.
Speaker 2: And the first time it happened was a Wednesday evening
Speaker 2: when Dad was away and I was just it was
Speaker 2: expertly sort of before school while he was out. If
Speaker 2: he was still away, it would have happened. So anytime
Speaker 2: he wasn't in that home it would happen.
Speaker 1: And did you have have an expectation that would happen
Speaker 1: all the time, like it became became a regular thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one per became a regular occurrence.
Speaker 1: What was the dynamics like between you and the person
Speaker 1: who's abusing you, your stepmother when your father was in
Speaker 1: the house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so at that age, so again I was told,
Speaker 2: you know the things that I was saying before, if
Speaker 2: you say anything, we'll both go to jail. So that
Speaker 2: fear was instilled in me as well. So there's that
Speaker 2: dynamic of you know, I stay in my room, nothing
Speaker 2: else happens while Dad's in the house, which just normal
Speaker 2: to me. So I just put my school uniform and
Speaker 2: packed my lunch and went to school, caught the bus
Speaker 2: to school.
Speaker 1: I sit here and just sort of shake my head.
Speaker 1: How going through all that with that house is meant
Speaker 1: to be the safe place, and you're going through that
Speaker 1: then gave the school looking back and you if you
Speaker 1: can describe how you felt it impacted on you at
Speaker 1: the time, but looking back, how was it affecting you
Speaker 1: your relationships with your schoolmates and socializing teachers you study
Speaker 1: what sort of impact did that type of abuse have?
Speaker 2: Well, everything revolved around it. Gary and I couldn't go
Speaker 2: to house parties, I couldn't go to school events or
Speaker 2: anything like that, because if anyone else had any inclination
Speaker 2: that something was happening between me and my stepmother, I
Speaker 2: was breaching that and I was putting her at risk.
Speaker 2: I was putting me at risk. I was putting the relationship,
Speaker 2: I say in quotations at risk. So I didn't engage
Speaker 2: in a normal teenage life. It just wasn't wasn't viable
Speaker 2: for me because my whole whole sort of mission was
Speaker 2: to ensure her protection because I was the man in
Speaker 2: the relationship.
Speaker 1: Okay, can we delve in a bit deeper without it
Speaker 1: explain that you're the victim, you've been abused, but your
Speaker 1: sense of duty as a man in this relationship, which
Speaker 1: isn't actually a relationship, it's abuse, felt that you had
Speaker 1: to protect her even though she was abusing you. That's
Speaker 1: that insidious manipulation that people that pray on young kids
Speaker 1: and sexually abuse young kids create, isn't it.
Speaker 3: They put the responsibility on the child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the dynamic because perpetrators want to put you
Speaker 2: in a position, a victim, in a position where they
Speaker 2: are giving them sort of like the perpetrators their entire world,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean. It's their source of
Speaker 2: punishment but also their source of relief and safety, So
Speaker 2: they create that entire dynamic and child sexual abuse. What
Speaker 2: I hope that listeners understand when they hear this story
Speaker 2: is that child sexual abuse is very rarely, very rarely
Speaker 2: a singular event. It's an entire process. It is rife
Speaker 2: with manipulation and expert manipulation, Like these people are pros
Speaker 2: at what they do, and it's an entire process that
Speaker 2: spans over years of not just grooming the victim, but
Speaker 2: their entire safety network. You know, my own mother was
Speaker 2: groomed into thinking my stepmother was a safe person for
Speaker 2: me to be in the care of. To an extent,
Speaker 2: my father was groomed.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I think what people don't understand the more I sit
Speaker 1: down and speak with people like yourself than Grace Tame
Speaker 1: who you know, and people that have gone through that
Speaker 1: abuse as children, that it's not just the sexual act
Speaker 1: where the abuse is happening, it's in every aspect of
Speaker 1: your life and confusing you at that age, confusing you
Speaker 1: that you're the person responsible for this, like you'll go
Speaker 1: to jail Yeah, we all carry guilt on things, but
Speaker 1: as a kid thinking you've committed something or done something
Speaker 1: that would send you the jail, that is so much
Speaker 1: of a burden to carry.
Speaker 3: Gary, I went to school the weight.
Speaker 2: It felt like a backpack full of bricks. It's the
Speaker 2: only way I can explain it. It's just the weight
Speaker 2: of confusion and not being able to understand what the
Speaker 2: hell has happened to you, you know, because there's all
Speaker 2: these you know, when you're a teenager, you're going through
Speaker 2: transformation into adulthood. There's things that are happening, happening neurologically
Speaker 2: and sort of physically as well, and it's just such
Speaker 2: a confusing period already. So you throw this this weight
Speaker 2: all over like it just exacerbates it, and it just
Speaker 2: makes you feel a sense of isolation and that that
Speaker 2: person is your entire world and that's all you that's
Speaker 2: all your worth is completely tied to that individual.
Speaker 3: To that one person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you think about that age, that's when
Speaker 1: the world's opening up to you. So you're discovering the
Speaker 1: world and you're called in this trap where your whole
Speaker 1: focus is on this one person who's abusing you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the other thing is people hear me with
Speaker 2: the ability to articulate it. Now, I had no ability
Speaker 2: to articulate what I was going through at thirteen, fourteen
Speaker 2: or fifteen, So there has.
Speaker 1: That as well, that extra Well, where do you start
Speaker 1: to try? They'll explain that you explained that with your
Speaker 1: mother and your father's divorce, that there wasn't that much
Speaker 1: communication between your biological mother and yourself. Did you consider
Speaker 1: telling anyone close to you, friends at school, or any
Speaker 1: role models and talk me through the process there at the.
Speaker 2: End of the day, know, because it just would jeopardize
Speaker 2: what I thought was my relationship. But the reason I
Speaker 2: didn't come forward for all those years was because well
Speaker 2: when I was fifteen, my daughter became a dynamic of it,
Speaker 2: which we'll dive into as well. But there was that
Speaker 2: parental responsibility in me as well to sort of adhere too.
Speaker 2: But I just you don't even You just think if
Speaker 2: I if I say anything, even a word, it's going
Speaker 2: to jeopardize everything. So if you say anything, it's gonna
Speaker 2: it's gonna it's gonna blow.
Speaker 1: And I would imagine with the manipulation from your step mother,
Speaker 1: you'd be concerned. And you've articulated quite well and said
Speaker 1: it that you didn't want you were trying to protect her,
Speaker 1: and like the irony is not lost on me, But
Speaker 1: the way that you're explaining it, I think people are
Speaker 1: getting understanding of the complexities of what child's sexual abuse
Speaker 1: is about. That is why it's such a horrible crime
Speaker 1: because the damage that it does.
Speaker 2: Undoubtedly it affects every aspect of your life, whether it's
Speaker 2: your intimate relationships or your ability at work or you know,
Speaker 2: the the weight of trauma. It's interesting because there are
Speaker 2: days where progress feels in my life, where progress feels
Speaker 2: like it's the only way, like it's just great. But
Speaker 2: there's also these days where the weight of the past
Speaker 2: just looms large and you can't escape that. It's a
Speaker 2: constant navigation and just trying to understand. And even today,
Speaker 2: like only recently have I been able to engage in
Speaker 2: a romantic relationship because I found someone that can, you know, hold.
Speaker 3: That space for me.
Speaker 2: But for years like that was just a real struggle
Speaker 2: to even be intimate with someone. You know, it just
Speaker 2: corrupted every facet of my being.
Speaker 1: Looking back, and it's not about regrets, it's about looking back.
Speaker 1: If other people are going through there. Can you talk
Speaker 1: to someone going through that type of abuse? Do you
Speaker 1: think it was possible to speak out?
Speaker 3: Could of you? Do you regret not speaking out? Was
Speaker 3: it even an option? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was particularly even an option,
Speaker 2: to be honest.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen a crime like child sexual abuse where
Speaker 1: people just bury their head in the scene and hope
Speaker 1: it goes away.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I try to rationalize it with the fact that it's
Speaker 1: too confronting to people, but it challenges people's weaknesses. I
Speaker 1: think that they don't want the family blown apart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's the thing with when abuse happens within
Speaker 2: a family dynamic. Carrying it completely obliterates that dynamic and
Speaker 2: splits it into there's a division the camp that believed
Speaker 2: the survivor and the camp that decide to go side
Speaker 2: with the perpetrator. Because no one wants to confirm in
Speaker 2: their mind that's someone that they've shared Christmas lunches with,
Speaker 2: and anniversaries with and birthdays with could ever be capable
Speaker 2: of such harrowing acts that for me, I sort of
Speaker 2: have an understanding of why it's hard to come to.
Speaker 1: Terms with, and it's almost worse than if there was
Speaker 1: an untimely death in the family where everyone can grieved together, because,
Speaker 1: as you identify, it splits the family apart. Sides have
Speaker 1: to be taken, Sides shouldn't be taken. That should be
Speaker 1: obvious that everyone should be on the same page, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I say it time and time again, and
Speaker 1: I hope people listening to this and the bravery you've
Speaker 1: got coming out and talking about your story. So the
Speaker 1: abuse went on for three years. So how old are
Speaker 1: you now? So I'm twenty four now twenty four okay,
Speaker 1: So we're talking formative views between the ages of thirteen
Speaker 1: and sinxteen sixteen, and you've described your life as you
Speaker 1: were so confused about life. You didn't step out anywhere.
Speaker 1: Did you mask it or hide what was going on.
Speaker 2: I was an expert at masking it. It was just
Speaker 2: part of the gig, so to speak. You had to
Speaker 2: do that in order to maintain what you thought was
Speaker 2: the only thing that mattered, which was which was my
Speaker 2: stepmother for me at the time, and also the birth
Speaker 2: of my daughter. So yeah, as you as you stated,
Speaker 2: I was sexually abused from the ages of thirteen to
Speaker 2: sixteen and a month before I turned sixteen when I
Speaker 2: was fifteen, my daughter was born, so my stepmother felt
Speaker 2: pregnant to my daughter, and I had to pretend that
Speaker 2: that girl was my sister for many, many years.
Speaker 1: If we talk about when we're looking at life, that
Speaker 1: Scott got some issues and this one. Let's start to
Speaker 1: start at the beginning with that. So you're fourteen or fifteen,
Speaker 1: just before we move on to the pregnancy. With your
Speaker 1: friends when they were boys at that age, they're talking
Speaker 1: about their first sexual conquest with a girl, that type
Speaker 1: of thing. Did you just step back from those conversations when.
Speaker 2: I remember making things up. I remember saying that I
Speaker 2: lost my virginity at a party one time and stuff
Speaker 2: like that to sort of evade any suspicion, Okay.
Speaker 1: Otherwise that they would be looking at you going, well,
Speaker 1: what's what's wrong with them?
Speaker 3: What's wrong with him?
Speaker 2: So unfortunately that's not the right thing to think. But
Speaker 2: that's what kids and I would have thought at the
Speaker 2: time one hundred percent. And that's kids just trying to
Speaker 2: survive in the tough environment that at school. Did you
Speaker 2: have communication with your mother at all, your biological mother, Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: so initially because again because of the dynamic dynamics of
Speaker 2: the divorce, I thought I had to choose a site
Speaker 2: so that that communication separated a little bit, but it regained,
Speaker 2: but it was very It was always at an arm's
Speaker 2: length because again, if she got too close, I know
Speaker 2: for a fact, she would have, you know, had some
Speaker 2: sort of suspicion.
Speaker 1: So you're you're making a conscious, deliberate decision to keep people.
Speaker 1: You must have been. Ah, he's just this teenager. It's
Speaker 1: just a dirty teenne moody teen that doesn't like communicating.
Speaker 1: You just played that role to suit your purposes. Yea there, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Did it affect your schoolwork?
Speaker 2: Oh undoubtedly. I mean I was not a because because Gary,
Speaker 2: as you were saying before, you know, home is usually
Speaker 2: the safe place for me, it wasn't. So school was
Speaker 2: sort of an opportunity. I still had to wear a mask,
Speaker 2: but it was an opportunity for me to sort of
Speaker 2: get out of that having to be regimented at home,
Speaker 2: you know, be a certain way, otherwise you know, you'll,
Speaker 2: you know, suspicional looker. So school was sort of me
Speaker 2: an opportunity for me to get away from that a
Speaker 2: little bit. And I wasn't engaged with school work. It
Speaker 2: was more just a moment for me to drop your guard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I drop my guard a little bit, and I didn't
Speaker 2: really apply myself to school like I probably could have
Speaker 2: if the abuse didn't oca. But yeah, it just it
Speaker 2: didn't happen at the time.
Speaker 1: Did you find was there any joy in your life
Speaker 1: or was your life, as you've said, just called up
Speaker 1: around what was going on with your step mother.
Speaker 2: Look, there were definitely moments of joy. I mean I
Speaker 2: had friends and like I would go out on the
Speaker 2: weekends to the beach sometimes and stuff like that. It
Speaker 2: was it was always very surface level for that protection.
Speaker 2: Like it's hard to sort of articulate, but I'm just
Speaker 2: going to say, but my whole life revolved around this perpetrator,
Speaker 2: my stepmother. Everything everything that I did dictated whether or
Speaker 2: not it was going to infiltrate upon that.
Speaker 3: How did it continue on after that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just it was just let's roller back
Speaker 2: a little bit, be more discreet and be like stay
Speaker 2: apart when he's in the house, and like even more
Speaker 2: to an extent. So it's really it was really it
Speaker 2: wasn't even a direct conversation that occurred between my stepmother
Speaker 2: and I. It was just sort of, oh, we have
Speaker 2: to be careful now. And that was it, and and
Speaker 2: then you sort of knew it's hard to really articulate
Speaker 2: the dynamic in the house. It was it was strange,
Speaker 2: like I can't, I can't.
Speaker 3: I think strange. It's strange.
Speaker 2: It's the only way to sort of say. It's it's
Speaker 2: an odd it's an odd and unnatural way to live life.
Speaker 1: Most definitely, were there times where you're thinking this isn't right,
Speaker 1: this is not right, and you push back against a
Speaker 1: stepmother or did she just manipulate you to the point
Speaker 1: where you didn't even feel like you had a platform
Speaker 1: to there was no equality there.
Speaker 3: You could not tell her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I simply could not. But also the only time
Speaker 2: that it felt wrong was was if I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: we're doing this behind my dad's back. You know, we're
Speaker 2: having an affair. Because she would tell me other things, Garry, like,
Speaker 2: you know, once you reach eighteen, we're going to run
Speaker 2: away and we're going to like have our own house
Speaker 2: and live out our life. Like I was told that
Speaker 2: just filling your head there was a goal, do you know?
Speaker 2: So that sort of made me want to continue at
Speaker 2: it because I thought I've got the rest of my
Speaker 2: life set up here. I'm going to live my life
Speaker 2: with the love of my life.
Speaker 1: And that's that's not just sexual abuse, it's the emotional
Speaker 1: manipulation and that's how much damage it can cause.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: So how old were you and how did you find
Speaker 1: out that your stepmother was pregnant?
Speaker 2: So I remember my step mother found out she was
Speaker 2: pregnant on a holiday back to the Philippines, where she
Speaker 2: was from. And the reason I know for a fact
Speaker 2: that it's mine, which is a question that I get
Speaker 2: very regularly, is my father had a It's sorry, I'm
Speaker 2: not laughing because it's it's just the saying it out loud.
Speaker 2: It's just so crazy. Yeah, my father had a vasectomy, Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: years before, and he claims that he never got the
Speaker 2: test done after. So there's that, there's that that there's
Speaker 2: a slight change and of.
Speaker 1: Doubt that's left in people's minds if they don't have
Speaker 1: the test after.
Speaker 2: So he's sort of been able to tell himself that
Speaker 2: it's his or during that period of time before it
Speaker 2: eventually came out.
Speaker 1: So she's gone back to the Philippines, she's got family
Speaker 1: in the Philippines, had she had ldren before. Okay, so
Speaker 1: she's gone back there, found out she's pregnant, made out
Speaker 1: it's my father's when she's come back, well, he was
Speaker 1: over there with her. Okay, yeah, right, okay, So and
Speaker 1: you you weren't there, you were back. I was back home,
Speaker 1: back home, and they've come back and announced.
Speaker 3: Guess what I was going to have her sister?
Speaker 1: Yeah, your step mom's pregnant. Yeah, okay, just break it down.
Speaker 3: Where were you talking through? What went through your mind there?
Speaker 2: So I got it through a text from my stepmother.
Speaker 2: I remember I was on the bus home from school.
Speaker 2: I was in my school uniform, fifteen years old.
Speaker 3: You're dealing with here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember because I was because obviously my father
Speaker 2: and stepmother were away. I wasn't staying in the house.
Speaker 2: I stayed with my mum for that period of time.
Speaker 2: So I remember I was going past Waverley College, which
Speaker 2: isn't the school that I went to, but was on
Speaker 2: the bus going past it. Got the text and just
Speaker 2: sort of went, okay, like what are our options here?
Speaker 2: And and yeah, I think we just sort of came
Speaker 2: to the conclusion conclusion that we were going to have
Speaker 2: to pretend it was my sister, and that's what happened.
Speaker 1: Okay, so the text you've received, the text, were you
Speaker 1: openly communicating with what was going on in text with
Speaker 1: you your stepmother?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: So it was it was via Facebook, I message, and
Speaker 2: I remember after every time we'd have a chat, we'd say,
Speaker 2: like you know, sort of like a normal relationship, I
Speaker 2: sort of text each other, I love you, and then
Speaker 2: she'd say delete, make sure you delete this chat. So
Speaker 2: everything was deleted after. But yeah, that was the that
Speaker 2: was the format that I sort of found out that
Speaker 2: I was going to be a father and.
Speaker 1: Just touching on that, like I love you. That was
Speaker 1: you thought that you thought that's what it was. Thought
Speaker 1: that I thought it was. See that that's that stuffs
Speaker 1: you up too, doesn't it. Really you don't have have
Speaker 1: an understanding. Love can be confusing enough at best of times,
Speaker 1: and that you don't even understand what love is.
Speaker 2: No, not at all. But that's what I thought it.
Speaker 1: Was, and she led you to belief. So anytime you're
Speaker 1: hearing people talk about love and all that, your your
Speaker 1: definition of lover is what was happening between you and
Speaker 1: your step mother.
Speaker 3: Okay, so how.
Speaker 1: Were you then four and fifteen fifteen, The fifteen year
Speaker 1: old boy shouldn't have to deal with in normal circumstances.
Speaker 1: But when you're having these conversations but via text with
Speaker 1: your step mother, was there a point in time when
Speaker 1: you just felt I can't deal with this, Like, was
Speaker 1: there you just wanted to scream.
Speaker 2: Oh, I've never really thought about it because it was
Speaker 2: just head down, survive, get through it. I didn't know
Speaker 2: that at the time, but it was just, Okay, this
Speaker 2: is another thing we have to deal with. I remember
Speaker 2: the weight of feeling, how are we going to navigate this?
Speaker 2: Like are we going to get caught now that there's
Speaker 2: a little that there's a child involved, And that was
Speaker 2: sort of the only at the time what I thought
Speaker 2: was the only sort of lever of stress that was
Speaker 2: brought upon me, that we get caught because now there's
Speaker 2: a child involved. But that sort of alleviated when I
Speaker 2: found out that my father was of the belief that
Speaker 2: it was his and I thought, okay, we can. We
Speaker 2: both came to the conclusion that we can navigate and
Speaker 2: put that for startup and that would cover us.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they'll carry you through. But from a personal
Speaker 1: point of view, your personal point of view and you
Speaker 1: can talk about it from what you're going through as
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old and what you know now as
Speaker 1: a young adult finding out going to be a parent
Speaker 1: for the first time.
Speaker 3: Is Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember when it happened to me, and I was
Speaker 1: a late twenties when.
Speaker 3: I first found out I was going to be a father.
Speaker 1: You're overwhelmed with joy, excitement, all the emotions that run
Speaker 1: with that. What was going through your head was their joy,
Speaker 1: was their sadness, was their confusion?
Speaker 2: What was happening there was there was anxiety, stress, There
Speaker 2: was also, funnily enough, joy.
Speaker 3: I thought it was.
Speaker 2: I thought it was I thought it was part of
Speaker 2: how it.
Speaker 3: Was meant to play out. This is beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And look now with the benefit of hindsight,
Speaker 2: it's obviously sick and twisted, and no fifteen year old boy,
Speaker 2: no child should ever have to go through that. It's
Speaker 2: so devastating. It's part of the reason that I talk
Speaker 2: out to ensure that we that the next child doesn't
Speaker 2: even experience a tenth of what I've been through. And
Speaker 2: most importantly of concern to me is that little girl
Speaker 2: that came of that. She never asked for any of this.
Speaker 2: My daughter never asked for a thing here. I didn't
Speaker 2: and she she definitely didn't. And that's just so devastating
Speaker 2: that she's been caught up in this, in this cowards manipulation.
Speaker 2: She's pose that upon my childhood and stripped that of me,
Speaker 2: but she's let this child be born into that. It's
Speaker 2: not fair.
Speaker 1: Again, you articulate it so well, but it opens up
Speaker 1: thought processes that I weren't considering. But that manipulation is
Speaker 1: at a different.
Speaker 2: Level, isn't it. It's expert Gary.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Was there any other signs that you saw with her,
Speaker 1: like when I'm saying with the step mother that showed
Speaker 1: her to be a person of such poor morals? Or
Speaker 1: is there anything about it?
Speaker 2: There's no, because she just presented as this wonderful human being.
Speaker 2: And that initial grooming and that that opportunity where she
Speaker 2: came into that movie theater where I was articulating before,
Speaker 2: it just was such a sense of relief for me.
Speaker 2: I found someone that cared for me, saw me. My
Speaker 2: parents were off doing the divorce and worried about that.
Speaker 2: But here's this person just giving me all this love
Speaker 2: and adoration. How lucky am I?
Speaker 1: And therein is the creepiness of pedophiles and child sex
Speaker 1: abuses that they prey on the vulnerable people, and the
Speaker 1: vulnerable people are quite often the people like yourself, broken,
Speaker 1: broken home, looking for love, looking for something secure, and
Speaker 1: it's almost.
Speaker 3: Like a radar to them, is part of their playbook,
Speaker 3: zero in on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whether it's the basketball coach at school who says, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, mom's going through a divorce, I'll take care
Speaker 2: of the kid this afternoon while while you go sort
Speaker 2: that out, or it's you know whatever, like it's part
Speaker 2: of the playbook. They look for that and presented this safe, fine,
Speaker 2: upstanding person because I'm sure people from the outside be thinking, no,
Speaker 2: isn't it good how she's taken the responsibility of a
Speaker 2: thirteen forteen year old boy in her life.
Speaker 1: Okay, your father and your stepmother have come back from overseas.
Speaker 1: You've been living with your biological mother while they're away.
Speaker 1: You've moved back in with them. What discussions did you
Speaker 1: have with the step mother?
Speaker 3: How did she manipulate the way through?
Speaker 1: You've had the text where you've agreed that your father
Speaker 1: of the belief it's his child and you and your
Speaker 1: stepmother are going to let that play its natural course.
Speaker 1: What sort of conversations did you have with it? Did
Speaker 1: she say she's sorry, did she say was there anything?
Speaker 1: Did she say this is beautiful? What sort of manipulation continue?
Speaker 2: There's nothing like that. I just remember I was working fifteen,
Speaker 2: or would have been working at a fish and chip
Speaker 2: shop across the street. I remember using my money to
Speaker 2: pay for things for babies, and I was just excited
Speaker 2: to be a part of it. That was the dynamic.
Speaker 2: Garry as strange, but I was just a victim of
Speaker 2: this coercion and this grooming, and that's how it was.
Speaker 2: It's disgraceful. It irks me to even say it out loud.
Speaker 2: Now you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: When you say it's disgraceful.
Speaker 1: It's disgraceful that you've been put in the positions and
Speaker 1: the things that you're articulating is perfectly understandable. The confusion
Speaker 1: you'd have, your thought, the situation that you're in that
Speaker 1: was loved.
Speaker 3: You thought that.
Speaker 1: A child's being born of that love. That's something beautiful.
Speaker 1: And look at you at at fifteen, you're working in
Speaker 1: your fish and chip shop, trying to build up the
Speaker 1: assets and baby toys and all that, and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to, Like we sit here and laugh,
Speaker 1: but we're I can assure people were not laughing at the.
Speaker 2: We're not laughing at the subject of it. We're laughing
Speaker 2: at the pure unbelievability that someone could get away with
Speaker 2: this for that long and just evade total accountability and
Speaker 2: total suspicion and all that.
Speaker 3: And it's just.
Speaker 2: I even I laugh at it because it's not a
Speaker 2: thing of humor. It's just a shock, a total disbelief.
Speaker 2: It still hits me, you know, because I engage with
Speaker 2: the media regularly now because of the advocacy and stuff,
Speaker 2: which we'll get into, and I'm not trying to jump
Speaker 2: the gun.
Speaker 1: No, it's something I want people to understand your story
Speaker 1: because I want when we talk about the advocacy having
Speaker 1: an impact, so people understand, of.
Speaker 2: Course, but I don't go into it into this much detail,
Speaker 2: you know. So this is a first for me usually
Speaker 2: because usually you say it and it fits in a SoundBite. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but me to take stock and sit back and have
Speaker 2: this sort of long form discussion with you and talk
Speaker 2: about it in this level of detail, it still hits
Speaker 2: me every like I'm saying things that I haven't said
Speaker 2: for years. You know, it's the shock and the total
Speaker 2: the aspect of how unbelievable it just is that someone
Speaker 2: got away with that. It still hits me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the most horrendous crime.
Speaker 1: It's happening under everyone's nose, and one person is paying
Speaker 1: the impact in unbelievable, unbelievable ways. I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: comprehend as a fifteen year old boy doing the things
Speaker 1: of the fifteen, like.
Speaker 3: Your childhood was stolen from you. Yeah, like your teenage
Speaker 3: is just stolen stolen.
Speaker 1: From you as a fifteen year old boy, the responsibility
Speaker 1: of working the fish and chip shop so you can
Speaker 1: buy buy some gifts for your daughter that you've got
Speaker 1: to pretend is your sister because you've been abused by your.
Speaker 3: Step mother living in the house.
Speaker 1: Was it just overwhelming as it's confronting watching someone become pregnant.
Speaker 1: That's not something you even consider when you're a teenager.
Speaker 1: But she's getting bigger and it's getting closer to the
Speaker 1: time and everything that happens with pregnancy. What was your
Speaker 1: life like at that point in time, Well.
Speaker 2: Before my daughter was born, I contemplated leaving school to
Speaker 2: do a trade. I didn't want to do that. But
Speaker 2: the reason was that thinking was because I thought I
Speaker 2: had to be a father and build a life for
Speaker 2: my daughter and sort of create an opportunity for me,
Speaker 2: my stepmother, and my daughter to run off and be
Speaker 2: a happy family and sort of provide for that. So
Speaker 2: that was the thinking at the time. Remember during that
Speaker 2: summer I said I was going to leave school. I
Speaker 2: did like a summer apprenticeship as an electrician. I remember
Speaker 2: the day my daughter was born, I got a photo
Speaker 2: of her texted to me while I was putting up
Speaker 2: a sign on Claverly Road, and I remember finishing there
Speaker 2: and going straight to the hospital after. And you know,
Speaker 2: my dad's not that tall, but I'm quite tall, and
Speaker 2: I saw the long arms and long limbs, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: my god, is she Are we going to get found
Speaker 2: out because of that fact that just that constant you're trying,
Speaker 2: you're on a minefield.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I could imagine you also would have been confronted by
Speaker 1: other people in your life, people that there friends with
Speaker 1: your father and your stepmother, with the oh, congratulations to
Speaker 1: your father, you're becoming a father, Good on you, and
Speaker 1: you would I'm assuming you would have been caught up
Speaker 1: in discussions like that and have to sit there.
Speaker 2: I was sitting there, But also there was a feeling
Speaker 2: of jealousy coming up as well of real anger. He's
Speaker 2: taking that from me, and he's taken my partner and
Speaker 2: my daughter, and that's coming up as well. So there's
Speaker 2: that dynamic. It's just so complex and complicated, but it
Speaker 2: this this all came about because of one person decided.
Speaker 3: To one person sexually as.
Speaker 1: A child just for her own sexual gratification, that she's
Speaker 1: comfortable destroying, destroying lives. I would imagine that talking on
Speaker 1: the issue of masculinity too. And you're talking about you're
Speaker 1: getting jealous of your father. When you're a teenage boy
Speaker 1: living in a household, relationships can become fractured. I know
Speaker 1: with my father, even with my son, where it's almost
Speaker 1: like the alpha male is trying to take over the
Speaker 1: household and I would clash with my father and fifteen
Speaker 1: or sixteen that I'm going to stand up to you,
Speaker 1: and you sort that you're testing the waters. I experienced
Speaker 1: the same thing with my son. There's a bit of
Speaker 1: pushback in your situation. I would imagine that would be
Speaker 1: like it was on steroids. It was agnified a complete steroids.
Speaker 2: It's the only way I can do it. Can I
Speaker 2: articulate that it was through the roof? I remember when
Speaker 2: my daughter was born. It was in the December of
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, and I turned sixteen in the January. The
Speaker 2: last sexual act occurred on my sixteenth birthday. And then
Speaker 2: it got to a point where all that came to
Speaker 2: a head. Gary and I couldn't be in that house
Speaker 2: anymore because that anger was just taking over me and
Speaker 2: that jealousy, and it was sort of coming out, not
Speaker 2: in a physical aspect from my end, Like I wasn't
Speaker 2: violent with my father or anything, but I knew I
Speaker 2: had to leave the house. So that's when I moved
Speaker 2: with my grandmother. And then that's when the dynamic between
Speaker 2: me and my daughter. I was like the older brother
Speaker 2: who would just come visit his little sister, can take
Speaker 2: her out for a swim for the day, take her
Speaker 2: to McDonald's, or take her to get ice cream more,
Speaker 2: you know, things like that. It became that dynamic there.
Speaker 3: Okay, so the.
Speaker 1: Abuses stopped, but the damage is still continuing on. We
Speaker 1: might take this uppportunity to have a break at this
Speaker 1: point in time, and when we come back. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk about having that child that you're pretending to
Speaker 1: be your sister in your life, what you've learned from that,
Speaker 1: allegations that your abuser made against you, claiming that she
Speaker 1: was raped, and the damage that that caused.
Speaker 3: She's a class act.
Speaker 1: Those limits and the work that you're doing in regards
Speaker 1: to making the difference. And I've just got to say,
Speaker 1: I've just got to say, Harry or Harrison, whatever whichever
Speaker 1: one I decided to call you, the fact that you
Speaker 1: come out and speak and speak so clearly, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people will be listening to this and
Speaker 1: go right, I'm starting to understand and get it. Because
Speaker 1: as we started off, as I said with my mate
Speaker 1: that was in the situation where a teacher is sexually
Speaker 1: abusing him, everyone just thought, oh, well, lucky guy type thing.
Speaker 3: But there's so much more damage that's done, isn't there.
Speaker 2: There's a whole entire dynamic that's behind the curtain, and
Speaker 2: the only way are going to ensure that this doesn't
Speaker 2: happen again, or try to the best availability to ensure
Speaker 2: that this doesn't happen within society again is by bringing
Speaker 2: light to it and by speaking about these stories, because
Speaker 2: these crimes, they operate in darkness, they operate and behind
Speaker 2: closed doors, and they thrive off shame and silence. And
Speaker 2: the only way we're going to combat that is by
Speaker 2: speaking out and speaking candidly, like you and I are
Speaker 2: here today. So it's a very important discussion and I'm
Speaker 2: just absolutely honored at the opportunity to contribute to today,
Speaker 2: and I look forward to coming back after a little break, Okay,
Speaker 2: Jeers