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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Child's sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse is a hideous crime. The impact it has on

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Speaker 1: victims is horrendous, and it can last a lifetime. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest was abused by a step parent and the child

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Speaker 1: was born from that abuse. Now, I'm sure your initial

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Speaker 1: thoughts upon hearing that would probably lean towards the fact

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator was a step father abusing his stepdaughter. But

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Speaker 1: you would be wrong today's guest, Harrison James, was a

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Speaker 1: naive thirteen year old boy when his stepmother started grooming

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Speaker 1: him and sexually assaulting him. This abuse went on for

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Speaker 1: three years, and the impact nearly destroyed him. It was

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Speaker 1: a secret he kept for years. A child was born

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Speaker 1: from the abuse, and Harrison had the live of a

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Speaker 1: secret that his sister was actually his daughter. I can't

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Speaker 1: even contemplate how you process what Harrison has been through,

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Speaker 1: but today we have Harrison in the studio to tell

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Speaker 1: us his story. Harrison James, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me go. It's a

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Speaker 2: great opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming on. Now let me clarify up front.

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Speaker 1: We've spoken before. I've called you Harry or Harrison.

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Speaker 3: You're right if.

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Speaker 1: Either okay, Well, it'll probably drift between the two because

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Speaker 1: I've got a short, short memory. I want to ask

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Speaker 1: you a question up front. Do you think that society

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Speaker 1: looks at child's sexual assault differently when the victim is

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Speaker 1: a male?

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a unique set of challenges that come

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Speaker 2: with being a male and being a survivor of child

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse. There's sort of this.

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 2: I'll speak from my experience and hopefully we can learn

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Speaker 2: something from it. When I was going through when I

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Speaker 2: was going through the healing process, it was fraught with

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Speaker 2: this sort of tension. There's this expectation that society puts

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Speaker 2: on men on how they should react to trauma, and

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Speaker 2: then there's the flip side to that, which is the

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Speaker 2: reality of how I navigated my healing. So it's this

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Speaker 2: double standard and you're trying to adhere to that societal expectation,

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Speaker 2: but really behind closed there's this thing that you grapple with.

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Speaker 2: Am I less of a man because I went through this?

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Speaker 2: Am I less of a man because I speak out?

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Speaker 2: And really that understanding of you know, for me, what

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Speaker 2: really helped me was coming to that understanding that there

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Speaker 2: is strength and vulnerability and there is courage and empathy

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Speaker 2: and speaking out and that's sort of taken me to

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Speaker 2: the position that I'm able to be in today where

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Speaker 2: I'm able to speak out in the way that I do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it touches on a lot of issues what you

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Speaker 1: just raised there about masculinity and the way that we

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Speaker 1: deal with the pressures and traumas that life spits up.

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Speaker 1: The reason I asked you that because it made me

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Speaker 1: reading up and preparing for this podcast and what you've

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Speaker 1: gone through and understanding your story. It made me reflect

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Speaker 1: on a few things through my life. And I had

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Speaker 1: a mate that was sexually abused as a child that

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Speaker 1: when he was in high school by a teacher, and

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Speaker 1: it was talked about, it was known after he left school,

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Speaker 1: and there wasn't a lot of sympathy and he put

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Speaker 1: on the bravado. It's almost shameful when you sit here

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Speaker 1: and look back, but I'm talking a long time ago

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Speaker 1: looking back, and it's oh luck guy. You know he

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Speaker 1: had that happened to him and there was laughter about it,

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Speaker 1: and that was all. This misinformation wasn't until he got

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Speaker 1: into his forties and he lived a productive life, but

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Speaker 1: there was a demon there that would surface every now

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Speaker 1: and then when he was in his forties and we

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Speaker 1: sat down had a heart to heart chat and he

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Speaker 1: said he only realized, and this is after he's had kids,

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Speaker 1: he's married and life was going on, how much it

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Speaker 1: affected him and the way it changed the way he

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Speaker 1: looked at life without dealing with it. And it really

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Speaker 1: opened my eyes up to it that we just didn't

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Speaker 1: fully understand what that type of sexual abuse. The impact

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Speaker 1: that can have on young men throughout their life.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean that's something that I resonate with quite deeply.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the impact of child sexual abuse and going

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Speaker 2: through that is devastating for any child of any gender,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not saying it's worse, but being a male

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Speaker 2: and going through that, it just presents a unique set

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Speaker 2: of challenges that we have to overcome because of those

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Speaker 2: societal expectations that you just presented there. So when I

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Speaker 2: was being sexually abused by my stepmother for three years,

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Speaker 2: every day for three years before and after school, you know,

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Speaker 2: I thought I was lucky. I thought I was living

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Speaker 2: out every teenage boy's fantasy. And you know, you see

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Speaker 2: things in media that just confirm that narrative as well.

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Speaker 2: You see things and sorry to be crashed, but in

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Speaker 2: things like pornography as well. You know, there's categories like

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Speaker 2: stepmom and teen fantasy and things like that. And for

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Speaker 2: me now, at the time, it was just confirming that

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Speaker 2: what I went through was a good thing, something that

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Speaker 2: all teenage boys should strive for, that ultimate fantasy. But

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Speaker 2: now I look back on it with the benefit of hindsight,

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Speaker 2: and I think that doesn't feel like a fantasy that

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Speaker 2: feels like a normalization of my trauma.

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Speaker 1: There's so many layers, Yeah, so many layers to it, Harrison,

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Speaker 1: And it just adds to the ads, to the pressure

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Speaker 1: and the confused that must you must have been going

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Speaker 1: through at that stage. And yeah, I think we all

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Speaker 1: need to check and realize that it's difficult being a

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Speaker 1: man as it is difficult being a woman. There's certain

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Speaker 1: society expectations that we fulfill.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, the way the world looked at the.

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Speaker 1: Type of thing that you went through, it was almost

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Speaker 1: half hard that jokes would be made about it. The

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Speaker 1: comedy movies would have situations in there like that. And

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Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting yourself sitting there thinking while you've

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Speaker 1: been abused that it's not that bad and you're lucky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's crazy. Well, that's something that I went

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Speaker 2: through on a daily basis. Just reiterating that, partially because

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Speaker 2: now that I think, you know, maybe it made it

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Speaker 2: easier to go through as well. At the time, true,

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Speaker 2: but also it was just that was the standard. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was if you're a teenage boy, you're getting lucky.

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Speaker 2: That's the quote, right, Like you're living out every teenage

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Speaker 2: boy's fantasy. And now that's something now that I speak

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Speaker 2: now very publicly and share my story as I do.

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Speaker 2: Part of the reason I do what I do is

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Speaker 2: to let boys know and let other men know that

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Speaker 2: there is that strength and vulnerability and sharing that story.

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Speaker 2: And what you went through was trauma and those feelings

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Speaker 2: that you're feeling but are sort of bubbling just under

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Speaker 2: the surface, they're valid and there's something that need to

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Speaker 2: be addressed. And I think as society we need to

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Speaker 2: we need to look at this as the abuse of

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Speaker 2: power across the board, because that's exactly what child sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse is. It's that dynamic. It is a total abuse

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Speaker 2: of power.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you take the gender out of it.

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Speaker 1: That is about the power, the power in balance like

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Speaker 1: a stepmother teenage boy and the confusion that that would

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Speaker 1: cause you. We'll dig into that whole situation that you

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Speaker 1: went through, but I just want to get an understanding

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Speaker 1: of who you were before before the sexual abuse started.

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Speaker 1: So tell us about your early years and the life

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Speaker 1: and that who you were and who you thought you were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I was a young boy who loved

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Speaker 2: his art and was quite a good drawer and was

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Speaker 2: into his films, loved film. Every time there was a

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Speaker 2: new film out, I had the costume and the toys

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Speaker 2: and everything and would draw it all that. My mother

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Speaker 2: has very fond memories of that, and she reminds me

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Speaker 2: of that all the time. So there were good aspects

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Speaker 2: of my childhood. And when I speak out about the

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Speaker 2: TRAUMAA interface, that doesn't mitigate those good aspects either. They

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Speaker 2: were there, and I'm very lucky that I had those

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Speaker 2: people like my mother and my mother's parents, my grandma

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Speaker 2: and my grandfather to really be a shining light and

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Speaker 2: an example for me to follow. You know, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be here and be able to speak the way I

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Speaker 2: do without that source of inspiration. So there was the divorce,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't see my dad for a good few years,

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Speaker 2: and he was remarried by that point, and to a

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Speaker 2: woman from the Philippines. And that's when, you know, by

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Speaker 2: the time I was thirteen, I was starting year eight.

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Speaker 2: I was the oldest of four kids. You're in a

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Speaker 2: house with your mother and three other kids. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's and you're becoming a teenage boy. You know, you

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Speaker 2: want your own space, and I wanted that father figure

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Speaker 2: in my life as well. So I reached out to

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Speaker 2: my dad and it went really well in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: You know, he would take me to the gym. I

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Speaker 2: hated the gym, but I just loved the fact that

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Speaker 2: I was hanging out with my old man. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it went really well, and it got to a point

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Speaker 2: where it went so well that I ended up moving

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Speaker 2: in with him because it was attractive. He lived near

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Speaker 2: the beach and it was right near my school. I

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Speaker 2: would have my own room and like that, tick tick

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Speaker 2: tick for a thirteen year old boy, that's unreal. And

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Speaker 2: I moved in and I hadn't met my stepmother before

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Speaker 2: I moved in. But it was a very gradual process

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Speaker 2: of erosion. And there were things that was sort of

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Speaker 2: maybe rub me the wrong way a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: also made me think, oh, she's just trying to be

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Speaker 2: a proactive mother figure type thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, if I stop you there, there's so much at thirteen,

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Speaker 1: You've got puberty kicking in the world is so confusing

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Speaker 1: at the best of times. At that age, you don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on, the feelings, You've got the insecurities,

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Speaker 1: but you're presenting as with all the bravado that comes

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Speaker 1: with being a teenager. So you've moved in with your father,

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Speaker 1: You've made that connection that felt right, the benefits of

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Speaker 1: your own room and living beside the beach and the

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Speaker 1: connection with your father, and then the step mother starts

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Speaker 1: coming into your life. For kids, it's difficult when they're

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Speaker 1: meeting the new partner in situations like that. What was

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Speaker 1: your first impressions of your stepmother.

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Speaker 2: I actually thought she was quite unassuming. Thought she was

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Speaker 2: just you know, from a foreign country who came here,

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Speaker 2: didn't really speak the language well, and I just thought,

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Speaker 2: you know, she just kept to herself, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it was sort of just the dynamic that was there.

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Speaker 2: I was there to hang out with dad and she

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Speaker 2: just happened to be there. So it's very unassuming, which

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Speaker 2: is part of the facade that these type of offenders

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Speaker 2: put on. But it was a gradual sort of erosion,

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Speaker 2: as I was saying before. And she invited me to

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Speaker 2: the movies one night, and again I thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just and.

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Speaker 3: That's tapping into your interests.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And you know, also just want to put

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Speaker 2: this point there so context is provided. My parents' divorce

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Speaker 2: was a very very messy. It was it was I

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Speaker 2: was put in a situation where I felt like I

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Speaker 2: needed to choose a side as well. So there was

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Speaker 2: that dynamic there that my parents were focused on the

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Speaker 2: divorce and I was sort of just a product byproduct

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Speaker 2: of that, and I think my stepmother saw an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to pray upon that, and she filled that void by

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Speaker 2: taking me to the movies. You know, I felt seen,

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Speaker 2: I felt heard.

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Speaker 3: I felt like, why.

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Speaker 1: Are your parents are the facusy? Your parents were still

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Speaker 1: sorting out the dynamics between their separation. You've got someone

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Speaker 1: that's showing you kindness.

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Speaker 2: And interest which has been stripped of me. And that

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Speaker 2: was sort of how she weaved her way in anyway.

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Speaker 2: She took me to the movies, and that's where the

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Speaker 2: touching on the leg began, and the holding of the

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Speaker 2: hands and putting her arm around my shoulder when we

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Speaker 2: went home, and things like that. And then in a

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Speaker 2: matter of days it escalated to sexual abuse.

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Speaker 3: How old were you at the time, thirteen?

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Speaker 1: Did you even it would have been school yard talk

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Speaker 1: about sex and everything else that goes on at that

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Speaker 1: age At thirteen, did you even have an understanding of

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Speaker 1: what was going on? Did you have an appreciation that

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Speaker 1: she was making the contact with touching your leg or

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Speaker 1: holding your hand.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was engaging in an affair behind my

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Speaker 2: father's back. I thought I was having a consensual sexual

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Speaker 2: relationship with my stepmother behind my father's back. I thought

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Speaker 2: it was just a secret I needed to keep in

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Speaker 2: that aspect, like don't tell my father.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So did you get a sense that something

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Speaker 1: was wrong about it? And I'm not sitting here in

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Speaker 1: judging you. You're the victim, and will make that point

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Speaker 1: very clear throughout this podcast, But did you get a

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Speaker 1: sense that something wasn't quite right or you just didn't

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Speaker 1: know at that age, Because that's why I'm curious about.

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Speaker 2: Of course, well the grooming and the insidious nature of it,

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Speaker 2: and the preparation and the things that are the rhetoric

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Speaker 2: that I was told over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: If you say anything, we could both go to jail.

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Speaker 2: You're the man in this relationship, you know, preparing me

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Speaker 2: for that dynamic and to feel like that's what the

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Speaker 2: situation is, That's exactly what happened, and that's what I

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Speaker 2: didn't feel like I was a victim of anything or

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Speaker 2: like it was a crime. I thought we were just

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Speaker 2: participating in an affair. Behind my father. Yeah, because of

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Speaker 2: that expert grooming and that that that facade that was

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Speaker 2: put upon me. And that's just not that's not a

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Speaker 2: few that's not something that's said a few times. That's

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Speaker 2: something that is codified in every conversation, in the entire

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Speaker 2: dynamic of this. Yeah, I don't even want to call

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Speaker 2: it relationships.

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Speaker 3: To each other.

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Speaker 1: It's not a relationship. It's a sexual abuse of minor.

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Speaker 1: How did she hide it from your father or and

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Speaker 1: from her point of view and your point of view

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Speaker 1: of course.

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Speaker 2: So my father was just starting out his new business

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Speaker 2: at the time, so he was out early mornings back

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Speaker 2: late afternoons. So I remember every Wednesday morning specifically, the

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Speaker 2: first time it happened was on a Wednesday evening because

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Speaker 2: my dad would fly to Queensland every Wednesday because he

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Speaker 2: was expanding the business from New South Wales to Queensland.

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Speaker 2: And the first time it happened was a Wednesday evening

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Speaker 2: when Dad was away and I was just it was

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Speaker 2: expertly sort of before school while he was out. If

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Speaker 2: he was still away, it would have happened. So anytime

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Speaker 2: he wasn't in that home it would happen.

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Speaker 1: And did you have have an expectation that would happen

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Speaker 1: all the time, like it became became a regular thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one per became a regular occurrence.

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Speaker 1: What was the dynamics like between you and the person

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Speaker 1: who's abusing you, your stepmother when your father was in

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Speaker 1: the house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so at that age, so again I was told,

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Speaker 2: you know the things that I was saying before, if

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Speaker 2: you say anything, we'll both go to jail. So that

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Speaker 2: fear was instilled in me as well. So there's that

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Speaker 2: dynamic of you know, I stay in my room, nothing

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Speaker 2: else happens while Dad's in the house, which just normal

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Speaker 2: to me. So I just put my school uniform and

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Speaker 2: packed my lunch and went to school, caught the bus

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Speaker 2: to school.

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Speaker 1: I sit here and just sort of shake my head.

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Speaker 1: How going through all that with that house is meant

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Speaker 1: to be the safe place, and you're going through that

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Speaker 1: then gave the school looking back and you if you

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Speaker 1: can describe how you felt it impacted on you at

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Speaker 1: the time, but looking back, how was it affecting you

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Speaker 1: your relationships with your schoolmates and socializing teachers you study

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Speaker 1: what sort of impact did that type of abuse have?

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Speaker 2: Well, everything revolved around it. Gary and I couldn't go

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Speaker 2: to house parties, I couldn't go to school events or

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Speaker 2: anything like that, because if anyone else had any inclination

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Speaker 2: that something was happening between me and my stepmother, I

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Speaker 2: was breaching that and I was putting her at risk.

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Speaker 2: I was putting me at risk. I was putting the relationship,

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Speaker 2: I say in quotations at risk. So I didn't engage

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Speaker 2: in a normal teenage life. It just wasn't wasn't viable

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Speaker 2: for me because my whole whole sort of mission was

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Speaker 2: to ensure her protection because I was the man in

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Speaker 2: the relationship.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can we delve in a bit deeper without it

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Speaker 1: explain that you're the victim, you've been abused, but your

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Speaker 1: sense of duty as a man in this relationship, which

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Speaker 1: isn't actually a relationship, it's abuse, felt that you had

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Speaker 1: to protect her even though she was abusing you. That's

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Speaker 1: that insidious manipulation that people that pray on young kids

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Speaker 1: and sexually abuse young kids create, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: They put the responsibility on the child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the dynamic because perpetrators want to put you

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Speaker 2: in a position, a victim, in a position where they

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Speaker 2: are giving them sort of like the perpetrators their entire world,

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Speaker 2: do you know what I mean. It's their source of

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Speaker 2: punishment but also their source of relief and safety, So

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Speaker 2: they create that entire dynamic and child sexual abuse. What

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Speaker 2: I hope that listeners understand when they hear this story

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Speaker 2: is that child sexual abuse is very rarely, very rarely

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Speaker 2: a singular event. It's an entire process. It is rife

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Speaker 2: with manipulation and expert manipulation, Like these people are pros

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Speaker 2: at what they do, and it's an entire process that

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Speaker 2: spans over years of not just grooming the victim, but

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Speaker 2: their entire safety network. You know, my own mother was

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Speaker 2: groomed into thinking my stepmother was a safe person for

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Speaker 2: me to be in the care of. To an extent,

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Speaker 2: my father was groomed.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: I think what people don't understand the more I sit

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Speaker 1: down and speak with people like yourself than Grace Tame

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Speaker 1: who you know, and people that have gone through that

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Speaker 1: abuse as children, that it's not just the sexual act

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Speaker 1: where the abuse is happening, it's in every aspect of

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Speaker 1: your life and confusing you at that age, confusing you

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Speaker 1: that you're the person responsible for this, like you'll go

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Speaker 1: to jail Yeah, we all carry guilt on things, but

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Speaker 1: as a kid thinking you've committed something or done something

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Speaker 1: that would send you the jail, that is so much

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Speaker 1: of a burden to carry.

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Speaker 3: Gary, I went to school the weight.

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Speaker 2: It felt like a backpack full of bricks. It's the

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Speaker 2: only way I can explain it. It's just the weight

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Speaker 2: of confusion and not being able to understand what the

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Speaker 2: hell has happened to you, you know, because there's all

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Speaker 2: these you know, when you're a teenager, you're going through

365
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Speaker 2: transformation into adulthood. There's things that are happening, happening neurologically

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Speaker 2: and sort of physically as well, and it's just such

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Speaker 2: a confusing period already. So you throw this this weight

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Speaker 2: all over like it just exacerbates it, and it just

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Speaker 2: makes you feel a sense of isolation and that that

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Speaker 2: person is your entire world and that's all you that's

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Speaker 2: all your worth is completely tied to that individual.

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Speaker 3: To that one person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you think about that age, that's when

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Speaker 1: the world's opening up to you. So you're discovering the

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Speaker 1: world and you're called in this trap where your whole

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Speaker 1: focus is on this one person who's abusing you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the other thing is people hear me with

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Speaker 2: the ability to articulate it. Now, I had no ability

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Speaker 2: to articulate what I was going through at thirteen, fourteen

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Speaker 2: or fifteen, So there has.

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Speaker 1: That as well, that extra Well, where do you start

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Speaker 1: to try? They'll explain that you explained that with your

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Speaker 1: mother and your father's divorce, that there wasn't that much

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Speaker 1: communication between your biological mother and yourself. Did you consider

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Speaker 1: telling anyone close to you, friends at school, or any

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Speaker 1: role models and talk me through the process there at the.

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Speaker 2: End of the day, know, because it just would jeopardize

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Speaker 2: what I thought was my relationship. But the reason I

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Speaker 2: didn't come forward for all those years was because well

390
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Speaker 2: when I was fifteen, my daughter became a dynamic of it,

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Speaker 2: which we'll dive into as well. But there was that

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Speaker 2: parental responsibility in me as well to sort of adhere too.

393
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Speaker 2: But I just you don't even You just think if

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Speaker 2: I if I say anything, even a word, it's going

395
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Speaker 2: to jeopardize everything. So if you say anything, it's gonna

396
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: it's gonna it's gonna blow.

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Speaker 1: And I would imagine with the manipulation from your step mother,

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Speaker 1: you'd be concerned. And you've articulated quite well and said

399
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Speaker 1: it that you didn't want you were trying to protect her,

400
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Speaker 1: and like the irony is not lost on me, But

401
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Speaker 1: the way that you're explaining it, I think people are

402
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: getting understanding of the complexities of what child's sexual abuse

403
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Speaker 1: is about. That is why it's such a horrible crime

404
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: because the damage that it does.

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Speaker 2: Undoubtedly it affects every aspect of your life, whether it's

406
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 2: your intimate relationships or your ability at work or you know,

407
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 2: the the weight of trauma. It's interesting because there are

408
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Speaker 2: days where progress feels in my life, where progress feels

409
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Speaker 2: like it's the only way, like it's just great. But

410
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Speaker 2: there's also these days where the weight of the past

411
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: just looms large and you can't escape that. It's a

412
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: constant navigation and just trying to understand. And even today,

413
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Speaker 2: like only recently have I been able to engage in

414
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Speaker 2: a romantic relationship because I found someone that can, you know, hold.

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Speaker 3: That space for me.

416
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Speaker 2: But for years like that was just a real struggle

417
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Speaker 2: to even be intimate with someone. You know, it just

418
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Speaker 2: corrupted every facet of my being.

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Speaker 1: Looking back, and it's not about regrets, it's about looking back.

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Speaker 1: If other people are going through there. Can you talk

421
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: to someone going through that type of abuse? Do you

422
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Speaker 1: think it was possible to speak out?

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Speaker 3: Could of you? Do you regret not speaking out? Was

424
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Speaker 3: it even an option? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was particularly even an option,

426
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Speaker 2: to be honest.

427
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Speaker 1: I haven't seen a crime like child sexual abuse where

428
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Speaker 1: people just bury their head in the scene and hope

429
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Speaker 1: it goes away.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

431
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Speaker 1: I try to rationalize it with the fact that it's

432
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: too confronting to people, but it challenges people's weaknesses. I

433
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Speaker 1: think that they don't want the family blown apart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's the thing with when abuse happens within

435
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 2: a family dynamic. Carrying it completely obliterates that dynamic and

436
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 2: splits it into there's a division the camp that believed

437
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: the survivor and the camp that decide to go side

438
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Speaker 2: with the perpetrator. Because no one wants to confirm in

439
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: their mind that's someone that they've shared Christmas lunches with,

440
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 2: and anniversaries with and birthdays with could ever be capable

441
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: of such harrowing acts that for me, I sort of

442
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: have an understanding of why it's hard to come to.

443
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: Terms with, and it's almost worse than if there was

444
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: an untimely death in the family where everyone can grieved together, because,

445
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: as you identify, it splits the family apart. Sides have

446
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: to be taken, Sides shouldn't be taken. That should be

447
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,479
Speaker 1: obvious that everyone should be on the same page, but

448
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I say it time and time again, and

449
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: I hope people listening to this and the bravery you've

450
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: got coming out and talking about your story. So the

451
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: abuse went on for three years. So how old are

452
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: you now? So I'm twenty four now twenty four okay,

453
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: So we're talking formative views between the ages of thirteen

454
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 1: and sinxteen sixteen, and you've described your life as you

455
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: were so confused about life. You didn't step out anywhere.

456
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: Did you mask it or hide what was going on.

457
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: I was an expert at masking it. It was just

458
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: part of the gig, so to speak. You had to

459
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: do that in order to maintain what you thought was

460
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: the only thing that mattered, which was which was my

461
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: stepmother for me at the time, and also the birth

462
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: of my daughter. So yeah, as you as you stated,

463
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: I was sexually abused from the ages of thirteen to

464
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: sixteen and a month before I turned sixteen when I

465
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: was fifteen, my daughter was born, so my stepmother felt

466
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: pregnant to my daughter, and I had to pretend that

467
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: that girl was my sister for many, many years.

468
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: If we talk about when we're looking at life, that

469
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: Scott got some issues and this one. Let's start to

470
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: start at the beginning with that. So you're fourteen or fifteen,

471
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: just before we move on to the pregnancy. With your

472
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: friends when they were boys at that age, they're talking

473
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: about their first sexual conquest with a girl, that type

474
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: of thing. Did you just step back from those conversations when.

475
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: I remember making things up. I remember saying that I

476
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: lost my virginity at a party one time and stuff

477
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: like that to sort of evade any suspicion, Okay.

478
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: Otherwise that they would be looking at you going, well,

479
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: what's what's wrong with them?

480
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: What's wrong with him?

481
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: So unfortunately that's not the right thing to think. But

482
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: that's what kids and I would have thought at the

483
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: time one hundred percent. And that's kids just trying to

484
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: survive in the tough environment that at school. Did you

485
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: have communication with your mother at all, your biological mother, Yeah, yes,

486
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: so initially because again because of the dynamic dynamics of

487
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: the divorce, I thought I had to choose a site

488
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: so that that communication separated a little bit, but it regained,

489
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: but it was very It was always at an arm's

490
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: length because again, if she got too close, I know

491
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: for a fact, she would have, you know, had some

492
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: sort of suspicion.

493
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: So you're you're making a conscious, deliberate decision to keep people.

494
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: You must have been. Ah, he's just this teenager. It's

495
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: just a dirty teenne moody teen that doesn't like communicating.

496
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: You just played that role to suit your purposes. Yea there, yeah, yeah.

497
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: Did it affect your schoolwork?

498
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: Oh undoubtedly. I mean I was not a because because Gary,

499
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: as you were saying before, you know, home is usually

500
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: the safe place for me, it wasn't. So school was

501
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: sort of an opportunity. I still had to wear a mask,

502
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: but it was an opportunity for me to sort of

503
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: get out of that having to be regimented at home,

504
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: you know, be a certain way, otherwise you know, you'll,

505
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: you know, suspicional looker. So school was sort of me

506
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: an opportunity for me to get away from that a

507
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: little bit. And I wasn't engaged with school work. It

508
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: was more just a moment for me to drop your guard. Yeah,

509
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: I drop my guard a little bit, and I didn't

510
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: really apply myself to school like I probably could have

511
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: if the abuse didn't oca. But yeah, it just it

512
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: didn't happen at the time.

513
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: Did you find was there any joy in your life

514
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: or was your life, as you've said, just called up

515
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: around what was going on with your step mother.

516
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: Look, there were definitely moments of joy. I mean I

517
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: had friends and like I would go out on the

518
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: weekends to the beach sometimes and stuff like that. It

519
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: was it was always very surface level for that protection.

520
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: Like it's hard to sort of articulate, but I'm just

521
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: going to say, but my whole life revolved around this perpetrator,

522
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: my stepmother. Everything everything that I did dictated whether or

523
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: not it was going to infiltrate upon that.

524
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: How did it continue on after that?

525
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just it was just let's roller back

526
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: a little bit, be more discreet and be like stay

527
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: apart when he's in the house, and like even more

528
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: to an extent. So it's really it was really it

529
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: wasn't even a direct conversation that occurred between my stepmother

530
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: and I. It was just sort of, oh, we have

531
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: to be careful now. And that was it, and and

532
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: then you sort of knew it's hard to really articulate

533
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: the dynamic in the house. It was it was strange,

534
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: like I can't, I can't.

535
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: I think strange. It's strange.

536
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: It's the only way to sort of say. It's it's

537
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: an odd it's an odd and unnatural way to live life.

538
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: Most definitely, were there times where you're thinking this isn't right,

539
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: this is not right, and you push back against a

540
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: stepmother or did she just manipulate you to the point

541
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: where you didn't even feel like you had a platform

542
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: to there was no equality there.

543
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: You could not tell her.

544
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I simply could not. But also the only time

545
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: that it felt wrong was was if I thought, oh,

546
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 2: we're doing this behind my dad's back. You know, we're

547
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: having an affair. Because she would tell me other things, Garry, like,

548
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: you know, once you reach eighteen, we're going to run

549
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: away and we're going to like have our own house

550
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: and live out our life. Like I was told that

551
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,239
Speaker 2: just filling your head there was a goal, do you know?

552
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: So that sort of made me want to continue at

553
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: it because I thought I've got the rest of my

554
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: life set up here. I'm going to live my life

555
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: with the love of my life.

556
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: And that's that's not just sexual abuse, it's the emotional

557
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: manipulation and that's how much damage it can cause.

558
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

559
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: So how old were you and how did you find

560
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: out that your stepmother was pregnant?

561
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: So I remember my step mother found out she was

562
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: pregnant on a holiday back to the Philippines, where she

563
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: was from. And the reason I know for a fact

564
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: that it's mine, which is a question that I get

565
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: very regularly, is my father had a It's sorry, I'm

566
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: not laughing because it's it's just the saying it out loud.

567
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: It's just so crazy. Yeah, my father had a vasectomy, Okay, yeah, yeah,

568
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: years before, and he claims that he never got the

569
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: test done after. So there's that, there's that that there's

570
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: a slight change and of.

571
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: Doubt that's left in people's minds if they don't have

572
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: the test after.

573
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: So he's sort of been able to tell himself that

574
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: it's his or during that period of time before it

575
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: eventually came out.

576
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 1: So she's gone back to the Philippines, she's got family

577
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: in the Philippines, had she had ldren before. Okay, so

578
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: she's gone back there, found out she's pregnant, made out

579
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: it's my father's when she's come back, well, he was

580
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: over there with her. Okay, yeah, right, okay, So and

581
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: you you weren't there, you were back. I was back home,

582
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: back home, and they've come back and announced.

583
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 3: Guess what I was going to have her sister?

584
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, your step mom's pregnant. Yeah, okay, just break it down.

585
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: Where were you talking through? What went through your mind there?

586
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: So I got it through a text from my stepmother.

587
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: I remember I was on the bus home from school.

588
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: I was in my school uniform, fifteen years old.

589
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: You're dealing with here?

590
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember because I was because obviously my father

591
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: and stepmother were away. I wasn't staying in the house.

592
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: I stayed with my mum for that period of time.

593
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: So I remember I was going past Waverley College, which

594
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: isn't the school that I went to, but was on

595
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: the bus going past it. Got the text and just

596
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: sort of went, okay, like what are our options here?

597
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: And and yeah, I think we just sort of came

598
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: to the conclusion conclusion that we were going to have

599
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: to pretend it was my sister, and that's what happened.

600
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so the text you've received, the text, were you

601
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: openly communicating with what was going on in text with

602
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: you your stepmother?

603
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: Yes?

604
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: So it was it was via Facebook, I message, and

605
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: I remember after every time we'd have a chat, we'd say,

606
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: like you know, sort of like a normal relationship, I

607
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: sort of text each other, I love you, and then

608
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: she'd say delete, make sure you delete this chat. So

609
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: everything was deleted after. But yeah, that was the that

610
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: was the format that I sort of found out that

611
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: I was going to be a father and.

612
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: Just touching on that, like I love you. That was

613
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: you thought that you thought that's what it was. Thought

614
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: that I thought it was. See that that's that stuffs

615
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: you up too, doesn't it. Really you don't have have

616
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: an understanding. Love can be confusing enough at best of times,

617
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: and that you don't even understand what love is.

618
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: No, not at all. But that's what I thought it.

619
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: Was, and she led you to belief. So anytime you're

620
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: hearing people talk about love and all that, your your

621
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: definition of lover is what was happening between you and

622
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: your step mother.

623
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: Okay, so how.

624
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: Were you then four and fifteen fifteen, The fifteen year

625
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: old boy shouldn't have to deal with in normal circumstances.

626
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: But when you're having these conversations but via text with

627
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: your step mother, was there a point in time when

628
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: you just felt I can't deal with this, Like, was

629
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: there you just wanted to scream.

630
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: Oh, I've never really thought about it because it was

631
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: just head down, survive, get through it. I didn't know

632
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: that at the time, but it was just, Okay, this

633
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: is another thing we have to deal with. I remember

634
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: the weight of feeling, how are we going to navigate this?

635
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: Like are we going to get caught now that there's

636
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: a little that there's a child involved, And that was

637
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: sort of the only at the time what I thought

638
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: was the only sort of lever of stress that was

639
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: brought upon me, that we get caught because now there's

640
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 2: a child involved. But that sort of alleviated when I

641
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: found out that my father was of the belief that

642
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: it was his and I thought, okay, we can. We

643
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: both came to the conclusion that we can navigate and

644
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: put that for startup and that would cover us.

645
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so they'll carry you through. But from a personal

646
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: point of view, your personal point of view and you

647
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: can talk about it from what you're going through as

648
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old and what you know now as

649
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: a young adult finding out going to be a parent

650
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: for the first time.

651
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 3: Is Yeah.

652
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: I remember when it happened to me, and I was

653
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: a late twenties when.

654
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: I first found out I was going to be a father.

655
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: You're overwhelmed with joy, excitement, all the emotions that run

656
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: with that. What was going through your head was their joy,

657
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: was their sadness, was their confusion?

658
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: What was happening there was there was anxiety, stress, There

659
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: was also, funnily enough, joy.

660
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: I thought it was.

661
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 2: I thought it was I thought it was part of

662
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: how it.

663
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: Was meant to play out. This is beautiful.

664
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And look now with the benefit of hindsight,

665
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: it's obviously sick and twisted, and no fifteen year old boy,

666
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 2: no child should ever have to go through that. It's

667
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: so devastating. It's part of the reason that I talk

668
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,959
Speaker 2: out to ensure that we that the next child doesn't

669
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: even experience a tenth of what I've been through. And

670
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 2: most importantly of concern to me is that little girl

671
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: that came of that. She never asked for any of this.

672
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: My daughter never asked for a thing here. I didn't

673
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: and she she definitely didn't. And that's just so devastating

674
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 2: that she's been caught up in this, in this cowards manipulation.

675
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: She's pose that upon my childhood and stripped that of me,

676
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: but she's let this child be born into that. It's

677
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: not fair.

678
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: Again, you articulate it so well, but it opens up

679
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: thought processes that I weren't considering. But that manipulation is

680
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: at a different.

681
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: Level, isn't it. It's expert Gary.

682
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

683
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: Was there any other signs that you saw with her,

684
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: like when I'm saying with the step mother that showed

685
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: her to be a person of such poor morals? Or

686
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: is there anything about it?

687
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: There's no, because she just presented as this wonderful human being.

688
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: And that initial grooming and that that opportunity where she

689
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: came into that movie theater where I was articulating before,

690
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: it just was such a sense of relief for me.

691
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: I found someone that cared for me, saw me. My

692
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: parents were off doing the divorce and worried about that.

693
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: But here's this person just giving me all this love

694
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: and adoration. How lucky am I?

695
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: And therein is the creepiness of pedophiles and child sex

696
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: abuses that they prey on the vulnerable people, and the

697
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: vulnerable people are quite often the people like yourself, broken,

698
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: broken home, looking for love, looking for something secure, and

699
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: it's almost.

700
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 3: Like a radar to them, is part of their playbook,

701
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: zero in on it.

702
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, whether it's the basketball coach at school who says, oh,

703
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: you know, mom's going through a divorce, I'll take care

704
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: of the kid this afternoon while while you go sort

705
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: that out, or it's you know whatever, like it's part

706
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: of the playbook. They look for that and presented this safe, fine,

707
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: upstanding person because I'm sure people from the outside be thinking, no,

708
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: isn't it good how she's taken the responsibility of a

709
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 2: thirteen forteen year old boy in her life.

710
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: Okay, your father and your stepmother have come back from overseas.

711
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: You've been living with your biological mother while they're away.

712
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: You've moved back in with them. What discussions did you

713
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: have with the step mother?

714
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 3: How did she manipulate the way through?

715
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: You've had the text where you've agreed that your father

716
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: of the belief it's his child and you and your

717
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: stepmother are going to let that play its natural course.

718
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: What sort of conversations did you have with it? Did

719
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: she say she's sorry, did she say was there anything?

720
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: Did she say this is beautiful? What sort of manipulation continue?

721
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 2: There's nothing like that. I just remember I was working fifteen,

722
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: or would have been working at a fish and chip

723
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: shop across the street. I remember using my money to

724
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: pay for things for babies, and I was just excited

725
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: to be a part of it. That was the dynamic.

726
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: Garry as strange, but I was just a victim of

727
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: this coercion and this grooming, and that's how it was.

728
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: It's disgraceful. It irks me to even say it out loud.

729
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: Now you know what I mean.

730
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 3: When you say it's disgraceful.

731
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: It's disgraceful that you've been put in the positions and

732
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: the things that you're articulating is perfectly understandable. The confusion

733
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: you'd have, your thought, the situation that you're in that

734
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: was loved.

735
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: You thought that.

736
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: A child's being born of that love. That's something beautiful.

737
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: And look at you at at fifteen, you're working in

738
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: your fish and chip shop, trying to build up the

739
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: assets and baby toys and all that, and you shouldn't.

740
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to, Like we sit here and laugh,

741
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: but we're I can assure people were not laughing at the.

742
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: We're not laughing at the subject of it. We're laughing

743
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: at the pure unbelievability that someone could get away with

744
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: this for that long and just evade total accountability and

745
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: total suspicion and all that.

746
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: And it's just.

747
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 2: I even I laugh at it because it's not a

748
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: thing of humor. It's just a shock, a total disbelief.

749
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: It still hits me, you know, because I engage with

750
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: the media regularly now because of the advocacy and stuff,

751
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: which we'll get into, and I'm not trying to jump

752
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: the gun.

753
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: No, it's something I want people to understand your story

754
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: because I want when we talk about the advocacy having

755
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: an impact, so people understand, of.

756
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: Course, but I don't go into it into this much detail,

757
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: you know. So this is a first for me usually

758
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: because usually you say it and it fits in a SoundBite. Yeah,

759
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: but me to take stock and sit back and have

760
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: this sort of long form discussion with you and talk

761
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: about it in this level of detail, it still hits

762
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: me every like I'm saying things that I haven't said

763
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: for years. You know, it's the shock and the total

764
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 2: the aspect of how unbelievable it just is that someone

765
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 2: got away with that. It still hits me.

766
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, the most horrendous crime.

767
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: It's happening under everyone's nose, and one person is paying

768
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: the impact in unbelievable, unbelievable ways. I'm just trying to

769
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: comprehend as a fifteen year old boy doing the things

770
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: of the fifteen, like.

771
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: Your childhood was stolen from you. Yeah, like your teenage

772
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 3: is just stolen stolen.

773
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: From you as a fifteen year old boy, the responsibility

774
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: of working the fish and chip shop so you can

775
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: buy buy some gifts for your daughter that you've got

776
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: to pretend is your sister because you've been abused by your.

777
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 3: Step mother living in the house.

778
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: Was it just overwhelming as it's confronting watching someone become pregnant.

779
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: That's not something you even consider when you're a teenager.

780
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: But she's getting bigger and it's getting closer to the

781
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: time and everything that happens with pregnancy. What was your

782
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: life like at that point in time, Well.

783
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: Before my daughter was born, I contemplated leaving school to

784
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: do a trade. I didn't want to do that. But

785
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: the reason was that thinking was because I thought I

786
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: had to be a father and build a life for

787
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: my daughter and sort of create an opportunity for me,

788
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: my stepmother, and my daughter to run off and be

789
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: a happy family and sort of provide for that. So

790
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 2: that was the thinking at the time. Remember during that

791
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: summer I said I was going to leave school. I

792
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: did like a summer apprenticeship as an electrician. I remember

793
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: the day my daughter was born, I got a photo

794
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: of her texted to me while I was putting up

795
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: a sign on Claverly Road, and I remember finishing there

796
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 2: and going straight to the hospital after. And you know,

797
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: my dad's not that tall, but I'm quite tall, and

798
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: I saw the long arms and long limbs, and I thought, oh,

799
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: my god, is she Are we going to get found

800
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: out because of that fact that just that constant you're trying,

801
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: you're on a minefield.

802
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

803
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: I could imagine you also would have been confronted by

804
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: other people in your life, people that there friends with

805
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: your father and your stepmother, with the oh, congratulations to

806
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: your father, you're becoming a father, Good on you, and

807
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: you would I'm assuming you would have been caught up

808
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: in discussions like that and have to sit there.

809
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: I was sitting there, But also there was a feeling

810
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: of jealousy coming up as well of real anger. He's

811
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: taking that from me, and he's taken my partner and

812
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: my daughter, and that's coming up as well. So there's

813
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: that dynamic. It's just so complex and complicated, but it

814
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: this this all came about because of one person decided.

815
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 3: To one person sexually as.

816
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: A child just for her own sexual gratification, that she's

817
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: comfortable destroying, destroying lives. I would imagine that talking on

818
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: the issue of masculinity too. And you're talking about you're

819
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: getting jealous of your father. When you're a teenage boy

820
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: living in a household, relationships can become fractured. I know

821
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: with my father, even with my son, where it's almost

822
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: like the alpha male is trying to take over the

823
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: household and I would clash with my father and fifteen

824
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: or sixteen that I'm going to stand up to you,

825
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: and you sort that you're testing the waters. I experienced

826
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: the same thing with my son. There's a bit of

827
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: pushback in your situation. I would imagine that would be

828
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: like it was on steroids. It was agnified a complete steroids.

829
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: It's the only way I can do it. Can I

830
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: articulate that it was through the roof? I remember when

831
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: my daughter was born. It was in the December of

832
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, and I turned sixteen in the January. The

833
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 2: last sexual act occurred on my sixteenth birthday. And then

834
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: it got to a point where all that came to

835
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: a head. Gary and I couldn't be in that house

836
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: anymore because that anger was just taking over me and

837
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 2: that jealousy, and it was sort of coming out, not

838
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: in a physical aspect from my end, Like I wasn't

839
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: violent with my father or anything, but I knew I

840
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: had to leave the house. So that's when I moved

841
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: with my grandmother. And then that's when the dynamic between

842
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 2: me and my daughter. I was like the older brother

843
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: who would just come visit his little sister, can take

844
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 2: her out for a swim for the day, take her

845
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 2: to McDonald's, or take her to get ice cream more,

846
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, things like that. It became that dynamic there.

847
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so the.

848
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: Abuses stopped, but the damage is still continuing on. We

849
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: might take this uppportunity to have a break at this

850
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: point in time, and when we come back. We're going

851
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: to talk about having that child that you're pretending to

852
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: be your sister in your life, what you've learned from that,

853
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: allegations that your abuser made against you, claiming that she

854
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: was raped, and the damage that that caused.

855
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: She's a class act.

856
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: Those limits and the work that you're doing in regards

857
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: to making the difference. And I've just got to say,

858
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: I've just got to say, Harry or Harrison, whatever whichever

859
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: one I decided to call you, the fact that you

860
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: come out and speak and speak so clearly, I think

861
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people will be listening to this and

862
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 1: go right, I'm starting to understand and get it. Because

863
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: as we started off, as I said with my mate

864
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: that was in the situation where a teacher is sexually

865
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: abusing him, everyone just thought, oh, well, lucky guy type thing.

866
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 3: But there's so much more damage that's done, isn't there.

867
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: There's a whole entire dynamic that's behind the curtain, and

868
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: the only way are going to ensure that this doesn't

869
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 2: happen again, or try to the best availability to ensure

870
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 2: that this doesn't happen within society again is by bringing

871
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: light to it and by speaking about these stories, because

872
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 2: these crimes, they operate in darkness, they operate and behind

873
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: closed doors, and they thrive off shame and silence. And

874
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: the only way we're going to combat that is by

875
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: speaking out and speaking candidly, like you and I are

876
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: here today. So it's a very important discussion and I'm

877
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: just absolutely honored at the opportunity to contribute to today,

878
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: and I look forward to coming back after a little break, Okay,

879
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: Jeers