1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:06,029 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear And Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,390 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. There's been plenty of volatility in equity markets so 3 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:11,680 Sean Aylmer: far this year, which has probably made for a lot 4 00:00:11,710 --> 00:00:14,990 Sean Aylmer: of nervous investors. But how do you invest if you're 5 00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:19,729 Sean Aylmer: looking for long- term, more consistent returns? Does all this short- 6 00:00:19,730 --> 00:00:23,270 Sean Aylmer: term volatility matter? Hugh Dive is the Founder and Chief 7 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:26,400 Sean Aylmer: Investment Officer of Atlas Funds Management. Hugh, welcome to Fear 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:26,830 Sean Aylmer: And Greed. 9 00:00:27,130 --> 00:00:27,580 Hugh Dive: Yeah. Good morning, sir. 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,250 Sean Aylmer: Firstly, let's start with your philosophy because I want to 11 00:00:30,250 --> 00:00:33,680 Sean Aylmer: talk about it. Atlas Funds Management's philosophy is smaller with 12 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,370 Sean Aylmer: certain returns today are worth more than larger uncertain future 13 00:00:38,510 --> 00:00:41,540 Sean Aylmer: returns. Are you talking dividends? Is that what that means? 14 00:00:41,950 --> 00:00:45,970 Hugh Dive: Yeah. For a bit of dividends. So when we look at the ... Investors sort of systematically 15 00:00:45,970 --> 00:00:48,950 Hugh Dive: overpay for Blue Sky and sort of the future earnings, 16 00:00:48,950 --> 00:00:51,409 Hugh Dive: very, very distant in the future, and they undervalue those 17 00:00:51,409 --> 00:00:54,140 Hugh Dive: certain returns today. So I know sort of from my, in terms of 18 00:00:54,140 --> 00:00:57,550 Hugh Dive: my background, I started off as a young analyst in 19 00:00:57,550 --> 00:00:59,960 Hugh Dive: Canada working for a big fund manager over there and 20 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,040 Hugh Dive: saw the Canadian sort of tech wreck first up. Whereas 21 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:05,380 Hugh Dive: some very large tech companies, which had earnings a long 22 00:01:05,380 --> 00:01:08,590 Hugh Dive: way in the future, such as sort of Nortel, Research 23 00:01:08,590 --> 00:01:10,640 Hugh Dive: in Motion, the makers of Blackberrys, which we all used 24 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,419 Hugh Dive: to love, were huge companies. That was Nortel's 30% of the index, 25 00:01:14,420 --> 00:01:16,580 Hugh Dive: Research in Motion was fourth of the largest stock in 26 00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:19,270 Hugh Dive: the index. And these all had sort of returns far in the future 27 00:01:19,390 --> 00:01:22,350 Hugh Dive: and very little earnings stay. When the tech wreck came and 28 00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:25,130 Hugh Dive: these companies sort of fell to bits, there was not 29 00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:27,840 Hugh Dive: the dividends to cushion their falls. And we saw this 30 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,080 Hugh Dive: a bit, like in January where we saw the markets 31 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,001 Hugh Dive: falling sort of quite heavily, markets, like Australia, their (inaudible) 32 00:01:33,001 --> 00:01:35,520 Hugh Dive: was off about six and a half percent. And the 33 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,480 Hugh Dive: companies that were hit the hardest were those without dividends because the 34 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,030 Hugh Dive: dividends provide a bit of an airbag. So in terms of 35 00:01:41,030 --> 00:01:44,260 Hugh Dive: our underlying philosophy, we quite like dividends and prefer sort 36 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:48,300 Hugh Dive: of that certainty of money, sort of cash accounts and hitting 37 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:51,310 Hugh Dive: the client's accounts today rather than sort of future returns 38 00:01:51,310 --> 00:01:54,460 Hugh Dive: in the future. Because, often, companies promise large returns in 39 00:01:54,460 --> 00:01:57,760 Hugh Dive: the future that don't get delivered. Also, with dividends, we 40 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,640 Hugh Dive: see sort of time and time again that management teams can restate 41 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,180 Hugh Dive: earnings and reset ARPS due to sort of aggressive accounting 42 00:02:04,180 --> 00:02:07,020 Hugh Dive: treatment, but they can't restate a dividend that's already hit 43 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:08,320 Hugh Dive: your bank account. But we like that certainty. 44 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,260 Sean Aylmer: So I'm sure many of our listeners, particularly, who aren't 45 00:02:12,260 --> 00:02:16,160 Sean Aylmer: institutional investors, but are more retail investors and retirees, that 46 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,440 Sean Aylmer: dividend certainty, undoubtedly, extremely attractive. The downside, though: does it 47 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,000 Sean Aylmer: mean that you can miss out on some big capital 48 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,790 Sean Aylmer: gains in tech stocks, for example, and you gave a 49 00:02:25,790 --> 00:02:28,910 Sean Aylmer: couple there who didn't do so well? But certainly, some 50 00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:34,299 Sean Aylmer: of the Facebooks of the world, notwithstanding recent activity, they 51 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:36,991 Sean Aylmer: kind of rose really hard even when they weren't making money. 52 00:02:36,991 --> 00:02:42,430 Hugh Dive: I think sort of where, obviously, I'm an Australian investor, so I can't invest in sort of Facebook in the 53 00:02:42,430 --> 00:02:45,460 Hugh Dive: portfolio, so what I'm trying to do is we're trying 54 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:46,919 Hugh Dive: to focus in on sort of providing sort of a 55 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,070 Hugh Dive: systematic income. And a lot of these sort of tech companies have done 56 00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:52,329 Hugh Dive: very well in a period of very low interest rates 57 00:02:52,410 --> 00:02:54,100 Hugh Dive: and where that sort of matters, which may be a 58 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:56,210 Hugh Dive: bit difficult for sort of some of the listeners to 59 00:02:56,430 --> 00:02:59,419 Hugh Dive: understand is that when someone's valuing a company with large amount 60 00:02:59,419 --> 00:03:02,300 Hugh Dive: of earnings, 20 or 30, 20 years in the future, when you 61 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:06,040 Hugh Dive: discount those earnings at sort of one percent, they look very large. When interest rates 62 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,040 Hugh Dive: go up and you have to discount those earnings at four percent, the 63 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,220 Hugh Dive: future value of those earnings come down. But, also, the 64 00:03:10,220 --> 00:03:13,030 Hugh Dive: future value of the earnings getting paid today for boring 65 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:16,630 Hugh Dive: companies, like Amcor and the banks, that increases. So that's 66 00:03:16,690 --> 00:03:17,021 Hugh Dive: something to think about there. 67 00:03:17,021 --> 00:03:20,770 Sean Aylmer: So Commonwealth Bank last week announced a higher dividend. In 68 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:22,840 Sean Aylmer: fact, I think it was probably higher than most people expected. 69 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:22,919 Hugh Dive: Yeah. 70 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,130 Sean Aylmer: That's kind of an example of what you're talking about? 71 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:28,269 Hugh Dive: Yeah, so that was a bit, a very pleasant surprise for investors. So 72 00:03:28,310 --> 00:03:31,230 Hugh Dive: Commonwealth Bank, they increased their interim dividend from $ 1. 50 to $1. 73 00:03:31,830 --> 00:03:34,920 Hugh Dive: 75, so almost getting back to the $ 2 we paid pre- 74 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,670 Hugh Dive: COVID, and also came in with a surprise 2 billion 75 00:03:37,670 --> 00:03:39,710 Hugh Dive: dollar buyback, so that's very good news for investors. And 76 00:03:39,710 --> 00:03:43,380 Hugh Dive: that's sort of an example of future income today. But, 77 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:45,840 Hugh Dive: for me, as sort of an institutional investor, one of 78 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,220 Hugh Dive: the things I like about dividends (inaudible) part of that, 79 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,570 Hugh Dive: franky, is not so much the advantage it gives to 80 00:03:50,570 --> 00:03:53,440 Hugh Dive: our investors, but it actually sort of proves up earnings. 81 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,110 Hugh Dive: So one of the things about dividends, a company board 82 00:03:57,110 --> 00:03:59,290 Hugh Dive: is not going to declare a dividend unless they're very 83 00:03:59,290 --> 00:04:01,370 Hugh Dive: certain about the outlook of the earnings. 84 00:04:01,370 --> 00:04:01,670 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 85 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:04,640 Hugh Dive: And second, with franking credits, a company CFO, they're not 86 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,880 Hugh Dive: going to overpay taxes. So in order to pay franking, you 87 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,650 Hugh Dive: have to pay tax to the ATO. 88 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:10,900 Sean Aylmer: Yep. 89 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,710 Hugh Dive: And they're not going to overstate that. So they're not going to pay more 90 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,570 Hugh Dive: tax than they have to. And we saw that sort 91 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:18,520 Hugh Dive: of during the GFC companies like Babcock & Brown and Alco, 92 00:04:18,580 --> 00:04:21,370 Hugh Dive: they were able to pay very good dividends, but they didn't pay very much franky 93 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,740 Hugh Dive: because the profits were sort of largely a luxury for shuffling money around and no 94 00:04:25,740 --> 00:04:26,670 Hugh Dive: money was actually being paid to the ATO. So franky, 95 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:31,460 Hugh Dive: which what I like is it sort of gives a bit of 96 00:04:31,460 --> 00:04:33,860 Hugh Dive: an earnings quality measure, it shows that these earnings are 97 00:04:33,900 --> 00:04:37,430 Hugh Dive: real because no CFO's going to pay more tax than they have to. 98 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:37,760 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 99 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:40,190 Hugh Dive: Secondly, on the franking there, is it's a bit of 100 00:04:40,190 --> 00:04:44,360 Hugh Dive: an undervalued area for Australian investors in that our tax laws prevent foreigners 101 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:47,730 Hugh Dive: from using franking credits and that results in their sort of systematic 102 00:04:48,690 --> 00:04:53,270 Hugh Dive: end evaluation because right around about 50% of the ASX is owned by foreign investors. And we see 103 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:55,360 Hugh Dive: that in some of these buybacks, and we've seen over the last couple 104 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,300 Hugh Dive: of years where foreign investors have set off these off- market 105 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:02,670 Hugh Dive: buybacks, so we saw Ampal do one, CBA did one last year 106 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:04,760 Hugh Dive: and they were very good for domestic investors and that got lots 107 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,330 Hugh Dive: of franking credits and you got much more than your fair 108 00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:11,339 Hugh Dive: share of allocation because the foreign investors just step back 109 00:05:11,339 --> 00:05:13,740 Hugh Dive: because they can't use them. So that's one of the reasons 110 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:15,040 Hugh Dive: why we like franking credits. 111 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:16,690 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Hugh, and we'll be back in a 112 00:05:16,690 --> 00:05:23,960 Sean Aylmer: minute. My guest this morning is Hugh Dive, Chief Investment 113 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,860 Sean Aylmer: Officer of Atlas Funds Management. Okay. So frank dividends, which 114 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:31,110 Sean Aylmer: companies do you like at the moment with that in 115 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:32,560 Sean Aylmer: mind? Which local companies? 116 00:05:32,910 --> 00:05:36,050 Hugh Dive: Oh, so there's a lot we've been looking at ones on the market. Looking 117 00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:37,900 Hugh Dive: through there, the banks all look sort of pretty good. 118 00:05:37,970 --> 00:05:40,640 Hugh Dive: They're sort of what we've seen in the most recent 119 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,960 Hugh Dive: reporting says it coming back very strongly, very strong sort 120 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:46,850 Hugh Dive: of returns. Looking through elsewhere through the market, I think somebody 121 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:50,820 Hugh Dive: we quite like is Deterra Royalty Trust, that's the royalty trust 122 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:53,460 Hugh Dive: spun out of Iluka. It's a royalty trust, so they're 123 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,001 Hugh Dive: not exposed to mining costs, just pure iron ore, but (inaudible) 124 00:05:57,001 --> 00:06:01,839 Hugh Dive: totally franked. Looking elsewhere through there, Sonic Healthcare, very 125 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,510 Hugh Dive: highly sort of franked, a lot of companies have done 126 00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:05,719 Hugh Dive: well out of COVID- 19, but no one's done as well 127 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,120 Hugh Dive: as Sonic Healthcare. Their result, they'll be in the blue, 128 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:09,760 Hugh Dive: I suppose that they're trying to minimize how much money 129 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,270 Hugh Dive: they're really making. Looking elsewhere, similar to that mining grain 130 00:06:13,290 --> 00:06:16,529 Hugh Dive: and Woodside Petroleum, obviously do very well out of rise 131 00:06:16,529 --> 00:06:18,740 Hugh Dive: in oil price, they're paying very high sort of frank dividends. 132 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:22,089 Hugh Dive: Similarly, sort of Wesfarmers, everyone's been buying a lot of Bunnings products, 133 00:06:22,089 --> 00:06:26,210 Hugh Dive: even though there has been a bit of disruption. So still very hard, strong sort of frank dividends. 134 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,130 Hugh Dive: There's a lot of frank dividends out there. 135 00:06:29,529 --> 00:06:31,710 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And you ... I want to talk about property in a moment, X Property, 136 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,169 Sean Aylmer: X rates. You are kind of agnostic in terms of 137 00:06:35,170 --> 00:06:38,279 Sean Aylmer: sectors. It's much more about what the company's doing, whether 138 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,909 Sean Aylmer: they're real earnings, whether they're paying dividends and whether they're franked. 139 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,270 Hugh Dive: And whether those dividends are growing. Because do you know 140 00:06:44,270 --> 00:06:46,600 Hugh Dive: what I own a dividend that's not growing? We have inflation 141 00:06:46,670 --> 00:06:48,700 Hugh Dive: running at sort of three percent, company's got to be, 142 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,680 Hugh Dive: better generate a higher dividend within several years to make 143 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,940 Hugh Dive: up for inflation. You got to protect your earnings against inflation. 144 00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:56,310 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's talk about rates. 145 00:06:56,450 --> 00:06:56,670 Hugh Dive: Yep. 146 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,710 Sean Aylmer: It just seems that on the property market, given what has 147 00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:02,101 Sean Aylmer: happened in the last couple of years with COVID-19. 148 00:07:02,101 --> 00:07:08,140 Hugh Dive: So 2020 was a bit of a rough year for anyone that had 149 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,710 Hugh Dive: anything to do with sort of real assets in that 150 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:12,620 Hugh Dive: no one was ever going to use a toll road 151 00:07:12,620 --> 00:07:16,410 Hugh Dive: again, no one was going to go to office or shopping centers were going to 152 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:16,970 Hugh Dive: be deserted. 153 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:19,429 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. The thing that has surprised me, though, is that 154 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,850 Sean Aylmer: construction seems to continue running pretty well, not withstanding how 155 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:25,880 Sean Aylmer: much they were sold off in 2020. They've come back 156 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Sean Aylmer: a bit, but how's that all work? 157 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:30,002 Hugh Dive: Oh, you mean as in looking around the city and (inaudible) construction? 158 00:07:30,002 --> 00:07:34,540 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. But even Mirvac last week came out and said, " We didn't have 159 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:36,900 Sean Aylmer: a great time with our retail centers," but, wow, people 160 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:39,420 Sean Aylmer: have building homes and building offices. 161 00:07:39,890 --> 00:07:43,810 Hugh Dive: Yeah, I think with a lot of the offices, they're very hard to stop. So I'm 162 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:46,890 Hugh Dive: looking out in Martin Place right now. There's a sea, there's a range 163 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:50,250 Hugh Dive: of cranes everywhere. These are things that were put in place 164 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:53,809 Hugh Dive: well before COVID- 19. And there's such a long wait 165 00:07:53,810 --> 00:07:56,420 Hugh Dive: period. But, ultimately, what we're also seeing is a lot 166 00:07:56,420 --> 00:07:59,310 Hugh Dive: of foreign money coming into Australia. Pension money from Southeast 167 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:03,180 Hugh Dive: Asia, from Europe, looking to buy Australian assets. So whereas 168 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:05,800 Hugh Dive: Australians about sort of shying away from assets on it 169 00:08:05,950 --> 00:08:08,500 Hugh Dive: with a yield of three or four percent, that looks 170 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:11,300 Hugh Dive: pretty attractive to a German pension fund when they're facing bonds 171 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,150 Hugh Dive: of like zero. So we're still seeing money flowing in, they're 172 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:18,510 Hugh Dive: still seeing transactions. So that's sort of why we're seeing 173 00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:20,270 Hugh Dive: stuff still being built. 174 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:23,150 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So do you like the real estate investment trust 175 00:08:23,150 --> 00:08:24,530 Sean Aylmer: sector in Australia at the moment? 176 00:08:24,940 --> 00:08:27,040 Hugh Dive: It's a tough question to answer because it's not a 177 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,530 Hugh Dive: very homogenous asset. 178 00:08:28,630 --> 00:08:29,080 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yep. 179 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:32,450 Hugh Dive: So a broad sort of, " I like it," is not 180 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,660 Hugh Dive: so great. So in terms of where we're positioned in the portfolio, we have some industrial 181 00:08:36,660 --> 00:08:41,100 Hugh Dive: properties, we have very little discretionary retail, so that's sort of the glitzy 182 00:08:41,330 --> 00:08:44,020 Hugh Dive: malls like sort of Westfield Sydney, I think that there will be 183 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:46,480 Hugh Dive: a sort of a hard road out there. We have a 184 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Hugh Dive: big overweight to Staples retailing, so that's sort of companies 185 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,700 Hugh Dive: like SCP and Charter Hall retail, which is like a Woolworth 186 00:08:53,970 --> 00:08:55,970 Hugh Dive: in the suburbs with Dan Murphy's next to it. 187 00:08:56,190 --> 00:08:56,280 Sean Aylmer: Yep. 188 00:08:56,290 --> 00:08:59,650 Hugh Dive: During lockdown, those things did very well. People were buying food and, certainly, 189 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:01,579 Hugh Dive: I know I was buying a lot of Shiraz on those dark 190 00:09:01,580 --> 00:09:02,711 Hugh Dive: days when the markets were down two per cent. 191 00:09:02,711 --> 00:09:02,712 Sean Aylmer: We all were, Hugh. We all were. 192 00:09:02,712 --> 00:09:08,559 Hugh Dive: And they didn't move and indeed like we saw SCP came out this week, 193 00:09:08,890 --> 00:09:12,100 Hugh Dive: they have seen no drop off and everything's going better than it was 194 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:16,439 Hugh Dive: before COVID for those boring, our regional malls. Don't have 195 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,620 Hugh Dive: much office, I think office, there's still a bit of 196 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,260 Hugh Dive: better to play out in that the big companies are 197 00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:24,179 Hugh Dive: still sort of coming back. I think this will see 198 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,670 Hugh Dive: a vacancy increase in the office market. Where we also 199 00:09:27,670 --> 00:09:31,939 Hugh Dive: like is that medical educational sector and then, also, the infrastructure sector. 200 00:09:31,950 --> 00:09:36,120 Hugh Dive: Residential's not a big part of the LPT index. I know the casual 201 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,770 Hugh Dive: sort of viewers would think that sort of residential property 202 00:09:38,770 --> 00:09:41,120 Hugh Dive: is a big part of the LPTs, it's not; it's 203 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,650 Hugh Dive: about 5% overall. That's because institutions are at a massive 204 00:09:45,790 --> 00:09:50,400 Hugh Dive: disadvantage compared to individuals investing in residential property in that there is 205 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,219 Hugh Dive: no negative gearing and there's no sort of capital gains free tax. 206 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:53,260 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 207 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:56,530 Hugh Dive: So, consequently, the residential exposure is the likes of sort 208 00:09:56,530 --> 00:09:59,970 Hugh Dive: of Mirvac and Stockland where they develop something and get off their books 209 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:02,610 Hugh Dive: as fast as possible. They don't actually own, or they don't 210 00:10:02,830 --> 00:10:06,050 Hugh Dive: want to actually own any residential property. The only time 211 00:10:06,050 --> 00:10:07,960 Hugh Dive: they own residential property is when something's gone wrong. 212 00:10:08,610 --> 00:10:11,520 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. Hugh, thank you. You've given us a great 213 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,390 Sean Aylmer: lesson in why frank dividends are things to keep an 214 00:10:14,390 --> 00:10:14,891 Sean Aylmer: eye out when you're investing. 215 00:10:14,891 --> 00:10:15,410 Hugh Dive: Yeah. It mean those earnings are real. 216 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:19,920 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 217 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:20,730 Hugh Dive: Thanks so much, guys. 218 00:10:21,410 --> 00:10:24,179 Sean Aylmer: That was Hugh Dive, Founder and Chief Investment Officer of 219 00:10:24,179 --> 00:10:27,050 Sean Aylmer: Atlas Funds Management. This is the Fear And Greed daily 220 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:29,280 Sean Aylmer: interview. Join me every morning for the full Fear and 221 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,600 Sean Aylmer: Greed podcast with all the business news you need to 222 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,760 Sean Aylmer: know. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.