1 00:00:03,460 --> 00:00:05,840 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:11,360 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Today, I wanted to get a bit of a 101 on investing in alternative 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,200 Sean Aylmer: assets. Travis Miller is the chief executive officer and co- 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,639 Sean Aylmer: founder of iPartners, an Australian platform founded in 2017 to give better 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,989 Sean Aylmer: access to alternative investment. Since then, iPartners has raised more 6 00:00:22,989 --> 00:00:25,440 Sean Aylmer: than $ 2 billion in investor funds. Travis, welcome to Fear and Greed. 7 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:28,220 Travis Miller: Thank you. Appreciate you having me. 8 00:00:28,510 --> 00:00:32,210 Sean Aylmer: So give me a definition of an alternative asset. There 9 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:34,510 Sean Aylmer: are many definitions of alternative assets out there. 10 00:00:34,620 --> 00:00:37,670 Travis Miller: Yeah. I find it's better as far as a definition 11 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:41,330 Travis Miller: to explain what it's not. I think when people look at traditional assets, 12 00:00:41,330 --> 00:00:43,820 Travis Miller: they look at buying or selling equities, buying or selling 13 00:00:44,229 --> 00:00:49,380 Travis Miller: bonds and some cash in traditional funds. Alternative assets is 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,979 Travis Miller: pretty much everything else. It's the kind of assets you 15 00:00:52,979 --> 00:00:55,510 Travis Miller: access. If you go to a standard financial planner and 16 00:00:55,510 --> 00:00:58,870 Travis Miller: you walk out with the balanced portfolio in what they're 17 00:00:58,870 --> 00:01:02,360 Travis Miller: offering, they tend to not be offering alternative assets. So 18 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:05,699 Travis Miller: the best way to think of it is everything else and alternative 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,480 Travis Miller: to the traditional asset set that an average investor would 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:10,540 Travis Miller: have in their portfolio. 21 00:01:10,910 --> 00:01:15,930 Sean Aylmer: So it's everything outside of local equities, international equities, cash, 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,240 Sean Aylmer: bonds, effectively. 23 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:19,360 Travis Miller: Yeah, and just think, yeah, traditional fixed incomes, so other kind of 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,399 Travis Miller: bonds, exactly right. If you think of everything else, that 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,479 Travis Miller: is what an alternative asset is and it's very broad. 26 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,010 Travis Miller: Arguably, it's the largest asset class that exists because it's, 27 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:32,390 Travis Miller: literally, everything else. 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,780 Sean Aylmer: So do real assets, things like property and the infrastructure, fit into 29 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:38,809 Sean Aylmer: that alternative asset definition? 30 00:01:39,250 --> 00:01:43,080 Travis Miller: Yeah, absolutely. I think resi property, you own a house, 31 00:01:43,420 --> 00:01:45,880 Travis Miller: people would probably put that in the traditional bucket, but 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,250 Travis Miller: everything else. So investing in residential property developments, investing in 33 00:01:51,250 --> 00:01:56,900 Travis Miller: commercial property, industrial property, you're investing in infrastructure, various things 34 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:00,990 Travis Miller: like that, absolutely. So real assets would fit into the alternative 35 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:01,820 Travis Miller: asset bucket. 36 00:02:02,690 --> 00:02:04,640 Sean Aylmer: I want to get into the particular specifics in a 37 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,920 Sean Aylmer: moment, but how big is that alternative asset class? You 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,040 Sean Aylmer: said arguably it's the biggest of the lot. I suppose 39 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,350 Sean Aylmer: it encompasses lots of things. How big is it and 40 00:02:14,350 --> 00:02:15,050 Sean Aylmer: is it growing? 41 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,139 Travis Miller: It's definitely growing. I think the best way to think 42 00:02:18,139 --> 00:02:21,179 Travis Miller: about it is an asset allocation in a traditional portfolio. 43 00:02:21,900 --> 00:02:25,490 Travis Miller: I would say a traditional portfolio having the range of 44 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:32,070 Travis Miller: 2 to 5% allocation to alternative assets. Again, arguably that 45 00:02:32,070 --> 00:02:35,810 Travis Miller: should actually be higher towards 15 to 20%. The future fund, 46 00:02:35,810 --> 00:02:39,470 Travis Miller: for example, has a long- term investment horizon. In the last 47 00:02:39,470 --> 00:02:42,549 Travis Miller: update they did, they looked to have about 30% in 48 00:02:42,550 --> 00:02:45,710 Travis Miller: their portfolio. So, obviously, it depends on the type of client, 49 00:02:46,410 --> 00:02:50,260 Travis Miller: the investment horizon, various things, but you would argue that current 50 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:54,950 Travis Miller: allocation towards alternative assets is quite small. Then just simply 51 00:02:54,950 --> 00:02:58,780 Travis Miller: increasing that towards a 10% allocation would have a huge 52 00:02:58,780 --> 00:03:04,790 Travis Miller: impact on investor exposure to alternatives. The traditional investor in alternatives really is that 53 00:03:04,790 --> 00:03:08,750 Travis Miller: institutional investor, that investor that's got a whole investment team 54 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:13,489 Travis Miller: with time to analyze the entire universe of possible investments they 55 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,300 Travis Miller: can allocate the money towards. 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,290 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So most of its institutional money, but retail investors can get into 57 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,399 Sean Aylmer: it via taking units in funds and invest in alternative 58 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:23,410 Sean Aylmer: investments. Is that right? 59 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:27,760 Travis Miller: That's one of the more traditional ways of getting exposure 60 00:03:27,810 --> 00:03:30,500 Travis Miller: so I'd say that's the traditional way to access alternative 61 00:03:30,770 --> 00:03:36,360 Travis Miller: assets. The way that's occurring is that gives investor exposure to a very small 62 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,590 Travis Miller: pocket of what's available in that alternative asset space. But 63 00:03:40,590 --> 00:03:44,740 Travis Miller: absolutely in an asset allocation, investing in fund managers that 64 00:03:44,740 --> 00:03:48,040 Travis Miller: have a tilt towards alternatives is absolutely one way to 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,140 Travis Miller: get some of that exposure. 66 00:03:49,150 --> 00:03:52,360 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So if we go through some of the different assets 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,160 Sean Aylmer: within alternative assets and we'll start with property, because you 68 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,810 Sean Aylmer: mentioned that outside resi, so it's industrial office and retail, 69 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:01,480 Sean Aylmer: they're the typical ones, are they? 70 00:04:02,010 --> 00:04:03,401 Travis Miller: Yeah, that's about right. Yep. 71 00:04:03,401 --> 00:04:07,320 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I suppose the pros and cons of investing in 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,520 Sean Aylmer: those sorts of assets as against resi property because I think 73 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,700 Sean Aylmer: we all understand residential property really well. 74 00:04:13,970 --> 00:04:17,770 Travis Miller: Yeah. I mean one way to think about it is property there's two 75 00:04:17,770 --> 00:04:20,860 Travis Miller: key ways you can take exposure to property in the 76 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:25,630 Travis Miller: alternative space. One is you can take an equity exposure, so you 77 00:04:25,630 --> 00:04:29,690 Travis Miller: can outright buy physical equity in the property so buy 78 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:32,280 Travis Miller: industrial properties, buy retail properties. 79 00:04:32,390 --> 00:04:33,270 Sean Aylmer: Buying a building, basically. 80 00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:35,690 Travis Miller: Yeah, so just outright equity. The other way that's very 81 00:04:35,690 --> 00:04:39,779 Travis Miller: popular is taking a debt exposure to those assets. So 82 00:04:39,779 --> 00:04:43,080 Travis Miller: just think a property owner traditionally would go to a bank and say, " 83 00:04:43,450 --> 00:04:44,830 Travis Miller: Look, can you give me some money? I want to 84 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:49,029 Travis Miller: purchase this industrial property." But banks often take a long time 85 00:04:49,029 --> 00:04:52,169 Travis Miller: to get approvals through. If you don't fit their criteria, then 86 00:04:52,170 --> 00:04:54,460 Travis Miller: you're not going to get a loan. So there's an 87 00:04:54,460 --> 00:04:59,210 Travis Miller: entire market to lend money to property owners to purchase 88 00:04:59,210 --> 00:05:03,680 Travis Miller: effectively assets or develop assets. That's where investors looking for a yield 89 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,940 Travis Miller: to fixed income, you would take a debt exposure on 90 00:05:06,950 --> 00:05:10,790 Travis Miller: property, rather than equity exposure on property. Both of those 91 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:12,650 Travis Miller: are quite common in the alternative asset space. 92 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:18,160 Sean Aylmer: Okay. That private debt area, obviously, goes well beyond property. I mean, 93 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:22,700 Sean Aylmer: I know there's stories around last week about superfunds lending 94 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:25,930 Sean Aylmer: directly to big businesses as a way of finding returns 95 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:27,880 Sean Aylmer: for all the money they've got at the moment so 96 00:05:28,050 --> 00:05:30,120 Sean Aylmer: that sort of goes much broader than just property then. 97 00:05:30,550 --> 00:05:33,570 Travis Miller: Yeah. When you look at debt, it can literally be over sort of any 98 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:36,120 Travis Miller: asset class. So you could be taking a senior- secured 99 00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:39,730 Travis Miller: debt position over a property, could be a senior- secured 100 00:05:39,730 --> 00:05:43,849 Travis Miller: position over a operating company. It could be over an 101 00:05:43,850 --> 00:05:47,920 Travis Miller: infrastructure asset. It could be over an agricultural asset. Being 102 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,410 Travis Miller: a debt provider in replacing that traditional lender, which was 103 00:05:51,410 --> 00:05:55,330 Travis Miller: the bank, is very common and growing at a rate 104 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,529 Travis Miller: of knots and, literally, focused on filling the gap where 105 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:03,090 Travis Miller: banks are either exiting or banks are just too slow 106 00:06:03,410 --> 00:06:07,270 Travis Miller: or too awkward to deal with, to achieve the objectives 107 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:08,229 Travis Miller: that a borrower is looking for. 108 00:06:08,830 --> 00:06:10,570 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me. Travis will be back in a minute. 109 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:17,740 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Travis Miller, CEO and co- 110 00:06:17,740 --> 00:06:20,869 Sean Aylmer: founder of iPartners. Okay. Another couple I've just want to 111 00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:25,250 Sean Aylmer: mention, you mentioned then agriculture so that's an alternative investment. What are you talking 112 00:06:25,250 --> 00:06:27,710 Sean Aylmer: about when you're talking about investing in agriculture? 113 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,070 Travis Miller: Yeah. Agriculture, I break into roughly three buckets. You have 114 00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:35,339 Travis Miller: the real land so just going in, buying a farm 115 00:06:35,339 --> 00:06:37,640 Travis Miller: that has various things that happen on it, whether it's 116 00:06:38,450 --> 00:06:40,900 Travis Miller: an operating business, whether it's cattle, grain, all sorts of 117 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,170 Travis Miller: different things. So you could buy the land or you 118 00:06:43,170 --> 00:06:45,790 Travis Miller: can actually lend money to the owner of the land, 119 00:06:45,790 --> 00:06:50,080 Travis Miller: again, replacing the traditional lenders in that space. Or you 120 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,850 Travis Miller: could provide agri finance and so just think of providing 121 00:06:53,850 --> 00:06:57,830 Travis Miller: finance to the farmer for them to buy additional cattle 122 00:06:57,830 --> 00:07:00,520 Travis Miller: to sit on their farm or to plant some grain 123 00:07:00,810 --> 00:07:05,510 Travis Miller: for the upcoming crop. Across that agri sector, again, you 124 00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:08,099 Travis Miller: can take an equity exposure, you can take a debt 125 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:13,110 Travis Miller: exposure. You can invest in operating businesses where you effectively 126 00:07:13,110 --> 00:07:15,900 Travis Miller: can own the land and the operating business, but you 127 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:18,700 Travis Miller: can actually segregate the two. So it may you invest 128 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,510 Travis Miller: in an operating business that runs cattle on the land, but they 129 00:07:22,510 --> 00:07:24,430 Travis Miller: may not actually own the land so they may be 130 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:27,770 Travis Miller: leasing it. So it's all of the sorts of business 131 00:07:27,770 --> 00:07:32,460 Travis Miller: and finance that occur across other sectors, the market it's 132 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:36,030 Travis Miller: really just focusing on the agri sector and taking exposure 133 00:07:36,030 --> 00:07:37,230 Travis Miller: to a specific bucket. 134 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:39,520 Sean Aylmer: The other one I just want to ask about is private 135 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,280 Sean Aylmer: equity. We hear lots about private equity investing in Australian 136 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,980 Sean Aylmer: companies, but as an investor, you can invest in private 137 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:48,830 Sean Aylmer: equity companies who do those investments. 138 00:07:49,190 --> 00:07:52,020 Travis Miller: Exactly right. Yeah. I mean, when I look at private 139 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:54,280 Travis Miller: equity, I just look at equity and companies. I think people 140 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,750 Travis Miller: look at private equity as the big ticket items when 141 00:07:58,410 --> 00:08:01,680 Travis Miller: a private equity firms comes in, takes a controlling stake, 142 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,710 Travis Miller: puts someone on the board and provides advice and helps 143 00:08:04,710 --> 00:08:06,980 Travis Miller: in operating that business. But when you look at equity 144 00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:10,100 Travis Miller: in private companies, so companies that are not listed, there's 145 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:12,530 Travis Miller: a whole range of stages, right? You have that angel 146 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:15,739 Travis Miller: phase, which you can invest in and sort of just hope the 147 00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:18,480 Travis Miller: company goes well because it's very early stage. Then you 148 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,370 Travis Miller: have the seed stage when the company's got a bit 149 00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:24,179 Travis Miller: of the proof of concept doing okay, little bit lower 150 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,340 Travis Miller: risk because they've established themselves. Then you get to that 151 00:08:27,340 --> 00:08:31,140 Travis Miller: growth sort of VC stage when company is starting to 152 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:34,010 Travis Miller: get established, need a bit of equity capital to continue 153 00:08:34,010 --> 00:08:38,030 Travis Miller: growing. Then you get to that later stage, more strategic, and 154 00:08:38,030 --> 00:08:41,300 Travis Miller: I think that's what people would consider private equity when 155 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:44,500 Travis Miller: the business has got sort of positives, making a profit, 156 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,410 Travis Miller: reasonably established, just looking for some advice and additional equity 157 00:08:48,410 --> 00:08:52,720 Travis Miller: capital. But effectively it's just, literally, taking an equity position 158 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,010 Travis Miller: in an unlisted company. That can be at various stage of 159 00:08:56,090 --> 00:09:01,179 Travis Miller: that company's evolution, from an absolute seed angel stage to 160 00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:05,491 Travis Miller: quite established, progressing toward actually IPOing and listing. 161 00:09:05,491 --> 00:09:07,610 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what I've sort of learnt in the last 162 00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:10,750 Sean Aylmer: 10 minutes or so is just the huge variety of 163 00:09:10,750 --> 00:09:14,280 Sean Aylmer: investments that you can make well outside the traditional equities 164 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,819 Sean Aylmer: fixed income cash areas. What are the key benefits of 165 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:20,250 Sean Aylmer: alternative investments and what are the key risks? 166 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:24,589 Travis Miller: Yeah, I think the key benefit is control. If you go and 167 00:09:24,940 --> 00:09:28,209 Travis Miller: buy a listed equity, you're literally just buying the listed 168 00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:30,860 Travis Miller: equity, and you have limited control of the outcome of 169 00:09:30,860 --> 00:09:34,540 Travis Miller: your investment. In private market is you typically have greater 170 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:38,309 Travis Miller: access to management. You have greater access and control over 171 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:42,179 Travis Miller: the documentation processes and the clauses. If things are going 172 00:09:42,179 --> 00:09:46,559 Travis Miller: wrong, you can step in and try and remediate at 173 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,240 Travis Miller: an earlier stage in the process so it really is 174 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,819 Travis Miller: that control. What is evolving now and it has always 175 00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:55,760 Travis Miller: been missing for the average investor is access. Traditionally, alternative 176 00:09:57,410 --> 00:10:00,939 Travis Miller: assets have been all about the institution or investor. Now 177 00:10:00,940 --> 00:10:05,880 Travis Miller: with platforms a bit like iPartners, investors can access in 178 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,359 Travis Miller: smaller increments and effectively get a seat at the table 179 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,600 Travis Miller: and explore assets they historically could never get access to. 180 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:16,929 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And presumably it diversifies your investment portfolio as well. 181 00:10:17,330 --> 00:10:21,580 Travis Miller: Yeah. And so that's, yeah, the traditional sort of diversification benefits and 182 00:10:21,580 --> 00:10:25,610 Travis Miller: low correlations. There's an entire asset class that doesn't sit 183 00:10:25,610 --> 00:10:28,939 Travis Miller: in most investor's portfolio and by adding that asset class 184 00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:31,700 Travis Miller: or a spread of those asset class, you improve the 185 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:35,929 Travis Miller: diversification of your portfolio. But you also can improve the risk- 186 00:10:35,929 --> 00:10:41,140 Travis Miller: return outcomes by adding low correlation assets that have sort 187 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:44,819 Travis Miller: of return profile different to your existing portfolio, which can lower 188 00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:47,179 Travis Miller: the risk across the entire investments. 189 00:10:47,809 --> 00:10:51,699 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What about the key risks? Presumably they're not as 190 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:55,300 Sean Aylmer: liquid, not as tradable as inequity, for example. 191 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,010 Travis Miller: Yeah. So yeah. I think in private markets, investors benefit 192 00:11:00,010 --> 00:11:04,700 Travis Miller: from taking illiquidity risk, and they benefit from taking complexity 193 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:08,130 Travis Miller: risk, and they benefit from there's a scarcity of capital. 194 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,760 Travis Miller: You're benefiting from those elements, but then you've also got to take 195 00:11:12,090 --> 00:11:14,400 Travis Miller: the flip side of that. It is illiquid, right? So if you 196 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,959 Travis Miller: want to get out of this asset, invest today, you want 197 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,819 Travis Miller: to get out tomorrow, well, it's often quite difficult because 198 00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:23,540 Travis Miller: they tend to be longer maturity. The investments can be 199 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:26,510 Travis Miller: more complex so you need to spend more time educating 200 00:11:26,510 --> 00:11:31,469 Travis Miller: and understanding the investment and the asset class. But the risk 201 00:11:31,470 --> 00:11:34,270 Travis Miller: are very similar in all investments, right? So you invest in 202 00:11:34,270 --> 00:11:37,470 Travis Miller: debt. That company borrow, it doesn't repay you, then you 203 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:40,870 Travis Miller: can lose some money. You invest in equity, company doesn't perform, 204 00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:43,640 Travis Miller: the value can go down. But the illiquidity is a 205 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,450 Travis Miller: key one in alternative assets. Also, the complexity element is 206 00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:51,480 Travis Miller: also key. They're two main things that I'd be thinking 207 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,949 Travis Miller: about in considering the risks. 208 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:55,709 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. Travis, thank you very much for talking to us 209 00:11:55,710 --> 00:11:58,069 Sean Aylmer: this morning. You've just given a great 101 on alternative 210 00:11:58,070 --> 00:12:00,910 Sean Aylmer: investments. I'm going to go to iPartners and now check 211 00:12:00,910 --> 00:12:01,210 Sean Aylmer: it out. 212 00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:02,050 Travis Miller: Good on you. 213 00:12:02,270 --> 00:12:05,100 Sean Aylmer: We're not a financial planning, we don't offer advice. Go 214 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,309 Sean Aylmer: and see someone, any listener out there, speak to your 215 00:12:07,309 --> 00:12:10,550 Sean Aylmer: own financial planner, but certainly as an asset class, it's 216 00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:13,130 Sean Aylmer: worth considering. So thank you this morning, Travis, for talking 217 00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:13,480 Sean Aylmer: to us. 218 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:16,190 Travis Miller: Thanks a lot. Really appreciate your time and getting me 219 00:12:16,190 --> 00:12:16,640 Travis Miller: on the show. 220 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,410 Sean Aylmer: That was Travis Miller, CEO and co- founder of iPartners. 221 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:22,650 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join me 222 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:24,850 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with 223 00:12:24,850 --> 00:12:27,179 Sean Aylmer: all the business news you need to know. I'm Sean 224 00:12:27,179 --> 00:12:28,480 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Enjoy your day.