1 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:08,520 Adam Lang: Welcome to the Fear and Greed business interview. I'm Adam 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,299 Adam Lang: Lang. For businesses there are few commodities as precious as 3 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:15,839 Adam Lang: trust. This goes beyond the business community and brands. It's 4 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:19,710 Adam Lang: the same for government, charities, and any institution with a 5 00:00:19,710 --> 00:00:23,520 Adam Lang: relationship with the public. That's why Edelman's Trust Barometer is 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,819 Adam Lang: so interesting. For the last 24 years, Edelman has been 7 00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:31,620 Adam Lang: surveying thousands of people worldwide, assessing global attitudes and perceptions 8 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:36,689 Adam Lang: towards institutions. The latest Trust Barometer is released today, and 9 00:00:36,690 --> 00:00:40,650 Adam Lang: the findings are pretty confronting for Australian business leaders. Tom 10 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:44,250 Adam Lang: Robinson is the Chief Executive Officer of Edelman Australia. Tom, 11 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:45,300 Adam Lang: welcome to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:45,929 --> 00:00:47,818 Tom Robinson: Thank you very much, Adam. Great to be here. 13 00:00:48,598 --> 00:00:51,330 Adam Lang: Tom, I know that you're very familiar with this currency 14 00:00:51,330 --> 00:00:53,910 Adam Lang: of trust, but why does it matter so much? 15 00:00:55,140 --> 00:00:59,610 Tom Robinson: Firstly, trust is quite personal. It dominates the relationships of 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,179 Tom Robinson: almost every interaction we have, which is key, as it's 17 00:01:03,179 --> 00:01:07,740 Tom Robinson: a measure of a relationship between someone and something or 18 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:11,100 Tom Robinson: someone else. And it's two- way. And when that balance 19 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:15,270 Tom Robinson: of trust leans one way or another, and we're asking 20 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:19,710 Tom Robinson: to be trusted, we see levels impacted. And it's fragile, 21 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:24,000 Tom Robinson: it's hard- earned, and it's easily lost. And for business 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:29,429 Tom Robinson: leaders, trust defines an organization's license to operate, whether it 23 00:01:29,430 --> 00:01:33,810 Tom Robinson: can lead and succeed as well. Trust is the foundation 24 00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:37,709 Tom Robinson: that allows an organization to take responsible risk, and if 25 00:01:37,709 --> 00:01:40,440 Tom Robinson: it makes mistakes, how it will rebound from them as 26 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,819 Tom Robinson: well. And so for any business, lasting trust is the 27 00:01:44,819 --> 00:01:49,650 Tom Robinson: strongest insurance against competitive disruption. It's almost the antidote to 28 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:53,280 Tom Robinson: consumer indifference, if you will, and the best path for 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,630 Tom Robinson: continued growth. So without that, really credibility gets lost and 30 00:01:57,630 --> 00:02:01,230 Tom Robinson: reputation can be threatened. So that's why we look at 31 00:02:01,230 --> 00:02:03,959 Tom Robinson: trust as a real measure for how not only the 32 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Tom Robinson: economy is doing, but what we need to do in 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,950 Tom Robinson: future to continue to grow and succeed together. 34 00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:13,619 Adam Lang: So let's take a look at some of the broad 35 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:18,270 Adam Lang: trends in the research. Establishment leaders are not trusted to 36 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:21,839 Adam Lang: tell us the truth. Has this been in long- term decline? 37 00:02:22,529 --> 00:02:25,169 Tom Robinson: It has to a point. We've been studying trust now 38 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:28,500 Tom Robinson: for 24 years, and so that's allowed us to look 39 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:31,680 Tom Robinson: at some of these larger macro trends that play a 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,080 Tom Robinson: role in society. And this dispersion of authority from institutional 41 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,550 Tom Robinson: leaders that we once held so dear towards, now, community, 42 00:02:41,669 --> 00:02:46,980 Tom Robinson: people like me so to speak, friends, neighbors, colleagues, and co- 43 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:51,600 Tom Robinson: workers? That level of trust has shifted over time. And 44 00:02:51,630 --> 00:02:56,250 Tom Robinson: there's been a few incidences and things that happened during 45 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,489 Tom Robinson: that period that will help facilitate that in some way, 46 00:03:00,150 --> 00:03:02,400 Tom Robinson: but that has been a growing trend, as you note 47 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,470 Tom Robinson: there, particularly amongst government or from government and political leaders. 48 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:11,070 Adam Lang: So Tom, why do you think that's happening? What's driving it? 49 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,790 Tom Robinson: We've seen during that same period a number of things 50 00:03:14,790 --> 00:03:18,840 Tom Robinson: happen within the global economy and within Australia. We had 51 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,880 Tom Robinson: the GFC in 2009, 2010, and that really shook the levels 52 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,988 Tom Robinson: of trust that people held in business leaders. We also 53 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:31,500 Tom Robinson: then more recently saw the impact of Covid play a 54 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:36,179 Tom Robinson: role in who and how we trusted. Covid actually allowed 55 00:03:36,210 --> 00:03:39,660 Tom Robinson: business, it allowed government, to really stand up, to regain 56 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:43,530 Tom Robinson: levels of trust in the public consciousness. And ultimately what 57 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:47,970 Tom Robinson: we do see within that period is, when economic prosperity 58 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Tom Robinson: and when future economic positivity held dearly, our levels of 59 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,610 Tom Robinson: trust remain quite high. And so there was a level 60 00:03:56,610 --> 00:03:59,520 Tom Robinson: of trust placed in government, placed in business, during our 61 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,480 Tom Robinson: response to Covid. We felt that everyone would succeed together 62 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:06,570 Tom Robinson: and we had the nation's best interests at heart. Now 63 00:04:06,570 --> 00:04:09,509 Tom Robinson: since then, what we have seen, we had that simple 64 00:04:09,509 --> 00:04:13,740 Tom Robinson: economic boost off the back of Covid. And over the 65 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:16,260 Tom Robinson: last couple of years we've seen that period of decline 66 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:19,469 Tom Robinson: and contraction within the market. And in line with that, 67 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:23,279 Tom Robinson: we've seen level of trust shaken. And ultimately it comes 68 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,210 Tom Robinson: down to economic prosperity. And when we can be positive 69 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:29,998 Tom Robinson: about our future and the future of our colleagues, co- 70 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,620 Tom Robinson: workers, family, we are more trusting in the leaders that 71 00:04:34,620 --> 00:04:37,830 Tom Robinson: we've instilled to guide us through that period as well. 72 00:04:38,099 --> 00:04:42,120 Adam Lang: Oh wow, that's really interesting. So economic prosperity can impact trust. 73 00:04:42,719 --> 00:04:45,750 Tom Robinson: Absolutely. It's a really close measure and a close link 74 00:04:45,928 --> 00:04:48,990 Tom Robinson: there, as we identified last year as well. And in 75 00:04:48,990 --> 00:04:51,000 Tom Robinson: the last couple of years, some interesting things have been 76 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,490 Tom Robinson: at play, and I've spoken about the effects of Covid 77 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:57,630 Tom Robinson: and what we saw there. And really in last year's 78 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,120 Tom Robinson: data, what we found was a level of polarization and 79 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:06,779 Tom Robinson: division in society. And we defined polarization by how significant 80 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:10,529 Tom Robinson: people thought divisions were in society, but also how easily 81 00:05:10,529 --> 00:05:13,650 Tom Robinson: they could be overcome. And when both of those measures 82 00:05:13,650 --> 00:05:16,500 Tom Robinson: were quite low, we found a nation that was really 83 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,979 Tom Robinson: on the cusp of polarization, deep divisions amongst the haves 84 00:05:19,980 --> 00:05:22,678 Tom Robinson: and the have- nots. Depending on whether you sat on 85 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,830 Tom Robinson: the political left or the political right, people were willing 86 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:29,430 Tom Robinson: to be more trusting or not. And so when those 87 00:05:29,730 --> 00:05:33,900 Tom Robinson: divisions are created, we also see the total level of 88 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:35,940 Tom Robinson: trust within society diminish. 89 00:05:36,509 --> 00:05:38,640 Adam Lang: Stay with me Tom, we'll be back in a minute. 90 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:49,020 Adam Lang: I'm speaking to Tom Robinson, chief executive officer of Edelman 91 00:05:49,020 --> 00:05:54,540 Adam Lang: Australia. So Tom, this report focuses on innovation in particular. 92 00:05:54,540 --> 00:05:57,899 Adam Lang: Does a lack of trust in authority make us more 93 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:01,950 Adam Lang: wary of innovation like artificial intelligence? Do we not trust 94 00:06:01,950 --> 00:06:04,980 Adam Lang: our leaders to effectively regulate new technology? 95 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,339 Tom Robinson: So that's the interesting lens in which we're operating right 96 00:06:08,339 --> 00:06:12,719 Tom Robinson: now. And last year was quite significant. OpenAI unleashed this 97 00:06:12,719 --> 00:06:18,510 Tom Robinson: new technology to the masses in November of 2022, and 98 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:22,979 Tom Robinson: really mass adoption continued to grow last year. So when 99 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:27,570 Tom Robinson: technologies and innovations hit the market so quickly, we do 100 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:31,469 Tom Robinson: see a challenge there. And this is the real paradox 101 00:06:31,469 --> 00:06:34,919 Tom Robinson: in society right now. On the one hand, we believe 102 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,238 Tom Robinson: these innovations like AI could unleash a new era of 103 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,890 Tom Robinson: economic prosperity. And yet on the other, they also risk 104 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:47,549 Tom Robinson: deepening those divisions in society. And I talk about that 105 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:50,938 Tom Robinson: in the lens of Australia, as AI is one of 106 00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:54,839 Tom Robinson: the least trusted and most rejected innovations that we found 107 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,610 Tom Robinson: in the study this year. Now, we looked at four 108 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,779 Tom Robinson: types of innovation. Artificial intelligence was one of those, as 109 00:07:03,779 --> 00:07:08,639 Tom Robinson: was green energy, as was gene- based medicine, and GMO 110 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:13,109 Tom Robinson: foods as well. And across the four, green energy was 111 00:07:13,140 --> 00:07:16,710 Tom Robinson: the most likely to be embraced, and AI and GMO 112 00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:19,739 Tom Robinson: foods were the two least likely to be embraced, or 113 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:23,130 Tom Robinson: as I say rejected, by the public. One of the 114 00:07:23,130 --> 00:07:26,309 Tom Robinson: key findings in this year's report was whether or not 115 00:07:26,309 --> 00:07:29,369 Tom Robinson: we believe establishment leaders can be trusted to tell the 116 00:07:29,369 --> 00:07:33,240 Tom Robinson: truth. And nearly two thirds of the country felt that 117 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,580 Tom Robinson: government leaders and business leaders were purposely misleading them in 118 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:42,119 Tom Robinson: some way. Now that's quite staggering when you think about 119 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,690 Tom Robinson: it. We don't trust them to tell the truth, by 120 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:51,180 Tom Robinson: and large. And within artificial intelligence, what we're seeing is 121 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:55,470 Tom Robinson: a tension not only between what it means in society, 122 00:07:55,620 --> 00:07:59,160 Tom Robinson: but also how it's regulated. And by and large, we 123 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,309 Tom Robinson: just don't trust government at this point to regulate it. 124 00:08:02,549 --> 00:08:04,949 Tom Robinson: And the reason for that, we found, was that we 125 00:08:04,949 --> 00:08:10,470 Tom Robinson: don't have faith that government leaders understand the technologies well 126 00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:13,590 Tom Robinson: enough to be able to regulate them effectively enough. So 127 00:08:13,590 --> 00:08:17,490 Tom Robinson: we've lost faith in our political leaders in their understanding 128 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:20,909 Tom Robinson: of the technology, and we don't trust business leaders to 129 00:08:20,910 --> 00:08:25,650 Tom Robinson: have the public interest at heart either. And so for business leaders 130 00:08:25,650 --> 00:08:30,930 Tom Robinson: themselves, there's a question mark around how we communicate or 131 00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:34,980 Tom Robinson: how effectively we communicate. Should we not be hearing more 132 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:38,219 Tom Robinson: from the scientists and the technical experts carrying out the 133 00:08:38,219 --> 00:08:42,930 Tom Robinson: research before we then hear from business leaders about what 134 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,380 Tom Robinson: impact the research and the innovation may hold for our 135 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:47,760 Tom Robinson: economy and our society? 136 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,689 Adam Lang: So Tom, there's a number of points there. And just 137 00:08:51,690 --> 00:08:55,259 Adam Lang: to explore them a bit more, it seems like, say 138 00:08:55,259 --> 00:08:58,740 Adam Lang: for example in AI, there's macro impacts, how it affects 139 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:01,679 Adam Lang: society as a whole, in which we're reasonably open to 140 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,429 Adam Lang: that. There's then individual impacts, which, " How does this affect 141 00:09:05,429 --> 00:09:08,520 Adam Lang: me," which we're quite wary about. And when it comes 142 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,309 Adam Lang: to hearing about it, we don't necessarily want to hear 143 00:09:11,309 --> 00:09:13,830 Adam Lang: from business leaders, we want to hear from experts. Is 144 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:14,850 Adam Lang: that the basic summary? 145 00:09:15,389 --> 00:09:18,540 Tom Robinson: That's absolutely right. And therefore we need to think about 146 00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:22,380 Tom Robinson: the voices. Not just the voices we're listening to, but 147 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,590 Tom Robinson: the voices we're also putting forward to speak confidently and 148 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:29,848 Tom Robinson: competently about how these changes might affect us. 149 00:09:30,389 --> 00:09:34,828 Adam Lang: So for business leaders, government leaders, can you boil this 150 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:38,490 Adam Lang: down to some tips for us, to bring this information 151 00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:41,700 Adam Lang: into our world and how we communicate with our staff, 152 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:44,700 Adam Lang: with our clients, with our partners and suppliers? How do 153 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:48,089 Adam Lang: we summarize all of that to have the best impact 154 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:49,680 Adam Lang: possible on behalf of our brands? 155 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,990 Tom Robinson: So there's some really, I guess, key findings this year. Firstly, too 156 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:59,728 Tom Robinson: often with innovation, we think about the innovation itself and 157 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:03,689 Tom Robinson: what it might bring. We don't often think about the 158 00:10:03,690 --> 00:10:07,139 Tom Robinson: implementation of that. And key to that is engagement with 159 00:10:07,139 --> 00:10:11,369 Tom Robinson: community, with society, and listening to people. And I think 160 00:10:11,369 --> 00:10:14,520 Tom Robinson: that's the question we must ask. Are we listening enough, 161 00:10:14,730 --> 00:10:18,240 Tom Robinson: and are we adapting and acknowledging the concerns that people hold? 162 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:23,580 Tom Robinson: So implementation is certainly as important as the invention, and 163 00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:27,360 Tom Robinson: we need to keep that top of mind. Secondly, another 164 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,268 Tom Robinson: macro trend that we have seen now for a number of 165 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:34,290 Tom Robinson: years is the role of business and government in partnership. 166 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:38,550 Tom Robinson: And again, what we find is that many people would 167 00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:43,500 Tom Robinson: view innovations, and would hold greater confidence in business and 168 00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:47,219 Tom Robinson: government, if they worked better together. A great example of 169 00:10:47,219 --> 00:10:52,260 Tom Robinson: this recently with the latest new vehicle emissions scheme announced 170 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:54,390 Tom Robinson: to the public and announced to the industry without the 171 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:57,450 Tom Robinson: level of engagement that might have more often perceived that. 172 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,559 Tom Robinson: So that's the second one, is how we partner together 173 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,139 Tom Robinson: with government and how government need to come to the 174 00:11:04,139 --> 00:11:08,218 Tom Robinson: table with business more often. Thirdly, we must lead with 175 00:11:08,220 --> 00:11:12,090 Tom Robinson: the science. We have to lead with facts and we 176 00:11:12,090 --> 00:11:16,500 Tom Robinson: need science to help integrate with society on this. So 177 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,919 Tom Robinson: bring the trusted experts to the front, let them have 178 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,819 Tom Robinson: a voice. And then finally is giving control, or at 179 00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:27,420 Tom Robinson: least acknowledging that people should have control, in decisions that 180 00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:29,880 Tom Robinson: are going to affect the future of their lives and 181 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,300 Tom Robinson: their reality. And that's what we're not seeing. I think 182 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:37,019 Tom Robinson: certainly across business and across government, decisions are being made, 183 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:39,900 Tom Robinson: they're going to impact many for many years to come. 184 00:11:40,379 --> 00:11:43,380 Adam Lang: Thank you for being our trusted expert on trust today, Tom. 185 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,720 Tom Robinson: Thank you very much, Adam. It was great to talk 186 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:46,110 Tom Robinson: to you today. 187 00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:50,728 Adam Lang: That was Tom Robinson, CEO of Edelman Australia. This is 188 00:11:50,730 --> 00:11:53,460 Adam Lang: the Fear and Greed business interview. Join us every morning 189 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:56,130 Adam Lang: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, daily business 190 00:11:56,130 --> 00:11:58,859 Adam Lang: news for people who make their own decisions. I'm Adam 191 00:11:58,859 --> 00:11:59,968 Adam Lang: Lang. Enjoy your day.