WEBVTT - Defending notorious criminals: Greg Goold Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.360 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.720 Today I had a conversation with Greg Gouhl, who is 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:54.000 a highly respected defense solicitor. They're the natural enemies of detectives, 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.840 so sitting down having a conversation with one was always 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.760 going to be a bit awkward. We learned from today's 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.200 conversation what drove our guests to defend the q's persons 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.119 with the same vigor that I pursued suspects. I found 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.920 out who Greg Gould is as a person. We talked 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.840 about what drives him, his thoughts on police, the legal system, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.040 and some of his high profile and interesting cases. He's 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.800 been defending people in the courts for over forty years. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:27.680 This is our chat. Okay, Greg, Well, I know that 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.760 you defend your clients with the same passion that I 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.720 used to pursue the suspects as a defense solicitor. Where 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:37.800 did that passion come from? 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.440 Well, it just sort of developed, I would think, Gary, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.160 I have my dad told me that my grandmother had 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.720 some interest in law or legal studies in South Australia 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.880 where she came from originally. And I sort of drifted 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:57.440 through high school and scored a Commonwealth scholarship which allowed 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.080 me to do arts lawrits in the university, and I didn't. 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:02.960 It wasn't much good at science, so that was all 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.320 that was left, and I ended up in law and 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:09.640 drifted into criminal law. And I guess coming from a 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:16.520 working class background and coming from a time when respect 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.079 for each other was pretty important, it was drieled into 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.320 you at school and at home, you get a feel 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:23.320 for wanting to help. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.720 People, Okay, And that's I speak to the defense listens 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.320 that I do speak to that. Quite often they say 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.360 about that that everyone's entitle to a defense, which we 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.400 fully understand, but there does seem to be a passion 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.520 and to do it. Do it as long as you do. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:40.840 I think you're in your fifth decade now. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:41.160 I am. 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.440 Yeah, that's a lot you would have. You would have 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.600 seen some changes in that time. 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.519 I certainly have, and some for the better and some 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:51.440 you wonder. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:56.320 Why, Yeah, when you representing someone and you're playing at 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:00.400 high stakes and went on the major cases, like depending 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.120 on how you do your job potentially could dictate whether 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.000 someone spends a large portion of their life behind bars. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.280 Do you feel that sense of responsibility when you take 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:10.840 on a case. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:18.359 Absolutely, and more so since the standard non parole periods 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:22.760 which apply to serious criminal activity were introduced. That puts 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:29.600 an extremely high large burden on criminal or practitioners to 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.040 make sure that their clients understand that if they go 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.520 to trial and lose, the penalty that they're going to 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.600 face is going to be substantially more than if they 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:38.720 decide to plead guilty. 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.520 I'm going to ask you this because I've spent my 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.560 career in the witness box under cross examination, sitting there 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:50.200 and getting carved up, sometimes getting victories other times, and 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.160 most recent times, I've been sitting in there as the accused, 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.760 which is even worse, and sitting in there as the informant. 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.840 Have you ever been in the witness box? 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.720 I spent three days in the witness box at the 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:09.320 Police Royal Commission, being cross examined about aspects of the 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.760 what you might call the King's Cross Underbelly saga, because 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.920 I acted for quite a few of the participants in 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.440 the Underbelly from the top Colorful Identities, the Colorful Sydney 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.440 Identities and I and I was being asked about things 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:30.000 that as the responsible partner for the legal the legal 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.120 facilities that we provided, I wasn't actually the solicitor on 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:34.520 the ground doing a lot of the work. It was 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.280 a couple of my employees. So but I had to 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.000 carry the can to the Crime Commission and it was 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.480 I found it nerve wracking. I found it. I was 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:47.320 angered by it and some of the inferences that were 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.839 being drawn. I've always tried to be above board with 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:52.720 the way I carry out my practice, and I was 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:53.880 a bit disappointed and. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.560 In the witness box, in that environment in the Royal Commission. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.960 That's increase in the pressure. There's a lot more pressure 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.920 than what I was talking about in the witness box 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.920 of the criminal trial. Moving on past the traumas that 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.960 I suffered in the witness box by people from your profession. 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.120 And might I say, and i'd give this advice to 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.080 young detectives. I'd see some police come out of the 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.200 witness box absolutely shocked that they've been criticized because they 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.000 haven't done anything wrong. And I was pain to explain, 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.479 it doesn't matter if you've done everything right, there's still 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.279 going to be criticism. This is a way of an 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.960 adversarial system. They're going to try to pull apart what 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.680 you've done and the decisions you've made and the things 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:36.680 that you've seen and said. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.200 That's true, Gary, but it's probably it's less so now. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:45.080 As I was saying earlier about the advances in forensic technology, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.880 the need for police officers to get into the witness 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:53.200 box has become less than it was in the past. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.520 Police officers tend to gather evidence more than being involved 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.839 in the case. They go out as investigators, they get 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.200 the evidence, or they've already got the evidence because it's 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:10.640 transcribed recording transcriptions of recordings or they are recordings, they've 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:16.600 got photographic evidence, which tends to make the job easier 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.440 for the prosecution in terms of its presentation and coming 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.520 to the defense loves and saying well, try and get 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:21.920 over this. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.920 Yeah, I see what you're saying. And that probably answers 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.880 why the police don't had that experience, because I remember 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:30.960 my early days in playing clothes. I was in the 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.960 witness box virtually every week there'd be some matter that 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.719 you're called to give evidence on, and of course this 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.440 is going way back, but when I came in the 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.840 electronic recording of interviews, that took a lot of pressure 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.400 out of instead of the type written Q and as. 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.080 While I was around when there were the verbals, the 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:52.760 police verbals as they were called. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:52.719 And. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.240 Yeah, rasps are are advantageous and can be to both 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.240 sides if they use properly. But normally I would tell 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:09.040 my clients never participate in an ARRASP because my advice 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:14.360 to them is normally in a police station, so it's 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.560 in their house. They'rey asking the questions, and you've been 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.680 plucked and are in a state of shock, so the 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.000 worst time to try and gather your thoughts and answer questions. 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.720 Well, that comes as a surprise. I've never heard a 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.960 defenseless as say no, don't participate in an interview. I've 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.760 been at bit cynical. There, tell me about from your 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.880 point of view, if someone comes to you, someone gets 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.520 themselves in the trouble, or someone's been charged with a 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.920 by police, what's the process? So they get in contact 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:48.080 with you and say, hey, Greg, I want you to 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:53.120 represent me. I've been charged with this offense. Where do 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.480 you start from there? Talk us through the process. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.200 I started off straight away by looking at what the 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.200 charges are and then going what is set out in 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.160 the fact sheet? That's the fact sheet is a version 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:11.120 of events that the officer in charge has formulated based 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.440 on the evidence they've got at that particular time. Now, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:19.160 that's going to tell me in a reasonably accurate way 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.560 the strength of the case and whether there's any holes 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.480 in it that are going to assist in me stopping 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.320 the police from eventually proving their case beyond reasonable doubt. 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.640 Okay, you got the brief of evidence, You have a 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.880 conference with the client, I would imagine, yep, And what 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.000 sort of advice or what without giving a specific example, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.080 what sort of advice general advice are you providing to 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:43.560 the client. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.440 Well, I'm telling the client, on the basis of what 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.000 i'm reading now, what your prospects are likely to be. 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:58.319 And unless you can explain what is said about your behavior, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:04.680 which is criminal, that's going to change my mind or 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.400 provide us with a defense, then I'm going to be saying, well, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:10.800 you're going to have to consider your position, and these 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.800 are your options. You complete guilty and get a lot 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:18.040 of sentence. We can ask for particulars, we can take 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:24.120 various make various applications in the court to get more information. 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.440 But generally, as an experienced criminal lawyer, you read the facts, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.080 You've got a pretty good idea of which way you're heading. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.439 Yeah, okay, you've got a brief. Let's use an example. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.960 I've charged someone with murder. It's a brief. I consider 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.960 it the strong brief murder. We're likely to be going 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.600 through the trial without giving the way you trade secrets. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.680 What do you go through looking at the brief? Do 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.960 you look at failings in that we've legislation, that we've 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.640 breached something, or there's a hole in this particular proof 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.679 of the offense. What type of things are you looking 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.560 for when you're dissecting the brief evidence. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.600 Well, first of all, you look at what the factual 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:09.079 circumstances are and whether the facts are based upon inferences. 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.280 That's connecting the dots on the basis of what you 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.959 expected to have happened or what the police know happened. Now, 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.679 that's firstly the thing. You look at what's the factual 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.720 scenario here and can that be established without speculation. The 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.960 second thing is you then go to the technical aspects 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.840 of the case in terms of what then can be 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.480 proved in a court of law, because what's put in 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.239 a fact sheet, we're in a statement is not necessarily 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.280 compliant with the rules of evidence. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.360 So that's okay. And then you've got the brief. You 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.439 going to court, do you get access to witnesses or 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.480 you speak to your client and make a decision whether 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.480 they're going to get in the witness box or not. 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:56.240 How do you. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.839 Approach a strategy for prepping for a trial? I'm talking 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.880 general sense here, so each trial, I would imagine that 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.720 have its own issues. How do you prepare for a trial? 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:12.400 Well, unlike other states in Australia who still have local 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:18.920 court proceedings where you can examine witnesses, New South Wales 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.440 is to a large extent done away with that system, 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.000 the committal system. It was as a result of a 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.440 legend case called the Greek Conspiracy which went for months 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.800 and months and months as a committal proceeding down at 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.240 Central Local Court and clogged up the whole local court 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.040 system for a long time, or the Court of Petty 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.000 Sessions as it was then called. But ultimately there are 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:49.959 there are ways of asking for further material, asking for particulars. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.160 There's a procedure called section eighty two of the Criminal 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.400 PROCEDURECT which allows us to ask for witnesses. But you're 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.040 not going to get a witness or a victim of 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.719 a sexual assault because it's too traumatic. You're not going 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:08.199 to get a victim of a serious violent offense. So 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.680 you're really really left with looking at what's available through 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:17.240 the evidence, calculating what, as I was saying before, what 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.600 is based upon inference or speculation, and what can be 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.920 actually proved. You then have to think about what your 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:27.600 client's going to say and you have to make an 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.560 assessment of their ability to withstand the rigors of the 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.120 witness box. Now you've already spoken Gary about how tough 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:35.760 it is, and I know from personal experience it can 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.480 be tough and the average person is simply not equipped 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.520 generally to handle that type of pressure. And so it's 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.520 very rarely that you'd called you call your client in 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.120 a trial. In fact, as an ould saying amongst criminal 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.480 is that the best your case I'll ever be is 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.040 at the end of the crown case. It's all downhill 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:56.440 from there. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.800 And explaining that, I think people have a sense of 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.959 it that the crown case, that's the prosecution present their 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.040 case and then they rest their case. They've established If 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.920 they reach that benchmark and they've established the primer facy, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.800 then it's a matter of the defense coming yes. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.560 And to understand why you wouldn't call your client is 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.960 because there are two levels of proof in a criminal trial, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:25.720 and that is the evidence being accepted by the judge, 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.840 not the jury at that stage, but by the judge 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.240 to what we call a primer facy level, or a 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:35.280 first level, which requires there to be evidence of the 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.040 commission of the crime, but not necessarily proof beyond reasonable 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.920 doubt of the crime. And that step from knowing that 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.559 someone may have committed the crime and then elevating that 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.040 to proof beyond reasonable doubt and that means that there's 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.880 no other explanation that's really consistent with innocence that had 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.720 explained that conduct being available. Now at the end of 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.720 the Crown case, you might be saying, well, I've punched 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.400 enough holes in this case for the jury to have 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:03.680 some doubts. I'll leave it at that. 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.680 Yeah, okay, no, I've seen it, seen it happen before. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.920 We talk about some of your high profile cases and 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.720 some of the characters you've met, and the the extraordinary 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.200 world that you've seen in the over forty years practicing 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.640 criminal law in Sydney, the lovely queen Streets of Sydney. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.240 Why did you get into law? What were first of 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.360 all your background, where'd you grow up and what inspired 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:31.800 you to become a lawyer? 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.280 Born in born in Couldji by the second son of 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.880 two avid rabbit o supporters. They've gled red and green. 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.800 Mum and dad ended up a rooster supporters somehow much 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:43.480 of their chagrin. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:44.880 He would have been a shame of you. 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.480 And so yeah, grew up in the Southern Shire, I 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.360 delic place for me to grow up, word around on 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.480 three sides, and went to a local Christian Brothers school, 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.000 did well at school, surprised evan myself in that regard, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.680 and ended up at Sydney University doing arts law major 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.800 it in politics. Realized that's the last place I'd ever 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:14.480 want to be and drifted into law. Got myself a 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.920 job with a commercial firm as an article, one of 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.960 the last article clerks, and within two years I was out. 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.920 I hung up my own shingle, and just for reasons 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.120 that were driven by where could I get work? You 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:31.240 ended up in criminal law. 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.560 Okay, So it wasn't the driving passion from the day 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.760 you went to kindergarten and you were accused of something 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.480 and you were going to defend people for the rest 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.680 of your life. It was just something that you fell into. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:43.520 Yeah, just something that I fell into. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.280 But your your reputation is that your passion and the 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.880 way that you go about your work, and you have 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.720 a good reputation. I say that not begrudgingly. It's I 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.280 think from a detective point of view, when I came 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.520 up against a good defend team, it would make me 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.320 raise my standard. So it's sort of it helps in 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.320 the way that you present your case. But what made 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.360 you follow the path of a defense lawyer. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.560 Well, I've never prosecuted anyone. I can say that you 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.160 should try. It's great, but I don't know. I think 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.080 it was just, you know, I'm a bit of a 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.480 people person. I like to help people. I like to 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:32.280 see people who are entitled to representation get a job 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.800 done properly for them. And some people that say, oh, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.320 I wasn't happy with your work, and a lot of 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.360 others would say I did a good job, and that 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.600 really pleases me, and it upsets me that someone mightn't 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.000 have thought they got the best job done for them 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.280 because as a lawyer, as a criminal lawyer, as a professional, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.440 that's what I strive to do and make a difference 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:52.640 in a person's life. 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.640 Is there a point in your career when you started 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.880 out that you got someone off a serious crime, or 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.639 off a crime that you believed that they're innocent. You 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.120 got them off and you went home that night, or 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.280 you felt, Okay, this is I'm achieving some good. 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.240 I couldn't name the cases, Gary, but there have been 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.639 cases where that's been the case, and I've felt really, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:25.240 really pleased that the system worked for that person. I've 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:30.199 looked at systems in other parts of the world. I 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.720 haven't appeared in course elsewhere, only in Australia, and I 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.880 think we're reasonably lucky that in terms of the ability 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.480 of a system to provide fairness, this one does its best. 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.640 Okay. So that's interesting because I don't think it's infallible 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.320 the system. I think there's always room for improvement. I'd 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.520 like to talk talk to you about that later on, 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.439 but I got a sense and going through a police 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.920 career where I was prosecuting people for a long time 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.720 and then been on the other side of the prosecution 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:06.520 as the accused. It's quite confronting. And I always had 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.240 an understanding that you had the balance. It couldn't be 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.760 favored all for the defense or all for the prosecution, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.480 but seeing it from having the full resources of the 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.680 state coming after you, and I was probably best set 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.840 up as anyone could be to defend myself in that 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.720 I understood the system and had the experience. But it 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.000 was intimidating. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.480 Well, that's because it's an adversarial system. At the end 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:37.159 of the day. I regard going into a courtroom like 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.120 going onto a sporting pitch. It's no hols barred within 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.160 the rules of the game. Once you're in the courtroom. 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.440 You've got to play according to the rules. But having 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.680 done that, you walk outside and you'll leave it there. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.679 But it's not for the fainthearted, and you've got to 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.560 expect that you're not going to win every game it is. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.439 It's and I think people need to under stand that. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.760 And I don't know of anyone that's been exposed to court, 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.600 whether as a victim of crime or someone that's been 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.840 convicted of a crime, that it has an impact on you. 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.399 I enjoy it, so it's my daily bread. So I 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:14.920 enjoy it. 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.840 Well, I'm glad you enjoy it because you've been doing 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.080 it for a very long time. I don't know if 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.399 you're considering changing careers. Oh this was a wrong career. 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.159 Well, I don't think you're going to be swopping places. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.399 Well, don't get cocky. I thought I was going to 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.040 be a cop until the day I died. And look 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:38.720 at me. Now. You've met some interesting characters and had 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.840 some high profile cases, and I'll just rattle off a few. 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.639 And if there's cases that you're not comfortable talking about, 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.760 please tell me. If not, let me know of the 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.439 one of the people that you defended, Alan Meridian. He 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.240 was murdered in two thy and twenty three. I believe 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.480 he was, and there was a lead up to the murder. 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.760 Do you want to describe Allen and how you got 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.720 to represent him in your dealings with him, what you 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:10.120 thought of him and the circumstances leading up to his murder. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.240 I've been involved with Alan going back to the to 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:18.920 a case that he was he was involved in which 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.359 caused him to serve a considerable amount of time in prison. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.320 I ran into him afterwards and he asked me would 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.520 he would he or could he use my services if 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:35.480 that was needed? And whilst he didn't, he wasn't in 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:42.120 any further trouble he was so far as charges were concerned. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.080 I don't. I'm not talking about what he may have 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:50.240 been doing otherwise. But he came to see me, and 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.040 he also got some advice from me another another lawyer 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.000 who had had actually worked for me in relation to 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.119 trying to get out of the country because of fear 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:00.920 of being assassinated. 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.520 And to put it in context, he was a high 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.080 ranking member of the Commoneros. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:12.639 He wasn't a particularly high ranking member, but because of 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:17.240 allegations about his involvement in other criminal activity, he had 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:18.440 a profile within that. 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.159 Okay, well established, yes, in that world. Okay, So there's 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.119 fears that he was going to be killed. And I 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.800 want to get your thoughts on some of the things 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.639 with the we call it the gang wars. I'm not 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:33.760 sure if that's a media so that they beat up, 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.159 but there's been a lot of public shootings and different 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.600 things going on. So at that particular point in time, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.399 there was legitimate threats for his well being. 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:49.040 Absolutely, and he was aware of that, and he spoke 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:54.040 to me about that, and it was a burden on him, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.280 it was a burden on his family, and it was 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:03.280 something that I think, from what we know now could 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.120 have or may have been avoided. 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:10.399 And how with the benefit of hindsight, but how it 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:11.800 could have been avoided. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.199 Well, perhaps the police could have stepped in earlier. My 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:20.600 history of an experience of police officers, particularly in relation 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:27.320 to listening device availability and monitoring devices. When they hear 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.879 guns are involved, they jump in. If a shipment of 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:32.800 drugs is coming in, they'll watch it, but if someone 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.280 pulls out a gun, they're straight there. It didn't happen 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:39.320 with Allan, and that's a real disappointment that I feel 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.800 in relation to the way the police acted. Now, I 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.399 may be offbeen, but as I understand it, they watched 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.879 these people plan an assassination for a considerable period of time, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.480 and maybe they could have done something better. 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.040 We see these people played out in the media, and 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:00.359 the media love the picture of the gangs on the 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:02.840 front page of the paper or the lead story in 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.359 the news. What was this particular person? 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.840 What was he like? So with me, he was a 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.560 very very intense type of person. On the one hand, 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.280 he could be he could be like your next door neighbor, 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.960