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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Today I had a conversation with Greg Gouhl, who is

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Speaker 1: a highly respected defense solicitor. They're the natural enemies of detectives,

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Speaker 1: so sitting down having a conversation with one was always

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Speaker 1: going to be a bit awkward. We learned from today's

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Speaker 1: conversation what drove our guests to defend the q's persons

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Speaker 1: with the same vigor that I pursued suspects. I found

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Speaker 1: out who Greg Gould is as a person. We talked

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Speaker 1: about what drives him, his thoughts on police, the legal system,

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Speaker 1: and some of his high profile and interesting cases. He's

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Speaker 1: been defending people in the courts for over forty years.

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Speaker 1: This is our chat. Okay, Greg, Well, I know that

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Speaker 1: you defend your clients with the same passion that I

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Speaker 1: used to pursue the suspects as a defense solicitor. Where

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Speaker 1: did that passion come from?

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Speaker 2: Well, it just sort of developed, I would think, Gary,

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Speaker 2: I have my dad told me that my grandmother had

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Speaker 2: some interest in law or legal studies in South Australia

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Speaker 2: where she came from originally. And I sort of drifted

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Speaker 2: through high school and scored a Commonwealth scholarship which allowed

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Speaker 2: me to do arts lawrits in the university, and I didn't.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't much good at science, so that was all

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Speaker 2: that was left, and I ended up in law and

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Speaker 2: drifted into criminal law. And I guess coming from a

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Speaker 2: working class background and coming from a time when respect

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Speaker 2: for each other was pretty important, it was drieled into

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Speaker 2: you at school and at home, you get a feel

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Speaker 2: for wanting to help.

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Speaker 1: People, Okay, And that's I speak to the defense listens

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Speaker 1: that I do speak to that. Quite often they say

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Speaker 1: about that that everyone's entitle to a defense, which we

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Speaker 1: fully understand, but there does seem to be a passion

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Speaker 1: and to do it. Do it as long as you do.

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Speaker 1: I think you're in your fifth decade now.

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Speaker 2: I am.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot you would have. You would have

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Speaker 1: seen some changes in that time.

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Speaker 2: I certainly have, and some for the better and some

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Speaker 2: you wonder.

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Speaker 1: Why, Yeah, when you representing someone and you're playing at

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Speaker 1: high stakes and went on the major cases, like depending

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Speaker 1: on how you do your job potentially could dictate whether

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Speaker 1: someone spends a large portion of their life behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that sense of responsibility when you take

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Speaker 1: on a case.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and more so since the standard non parole periods

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Speaker 2: which apply to serious criminal activity were introduced. That puts

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Speaker 2: an extremely high large burden on criminal or practitioners to

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Speaker 2: make sure that their clients understand that if they go

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Speaker 2: to trial and lose, the penalty that they're going to

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Speaker 2: face is going to be substantially more than if they

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Speaker 2: decide to plead guilty.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you this because I've spent my

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Speaker 1: career in the witness box under cross examination, sitting there

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Speaker 1: and getting carved up, sometimes getting victories other times, and

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Speaker 1: most recent times, I've been sitting in there as the accused,

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Speaker 1: which is even worse, and sitting in there as the informant.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been in the witness box?

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Speaker 2: I spent three days in the witness box at the

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Speaker 2: Police Royal Commission, being cross examined about aspects of the

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Speaker 2: what you might call the King's Cross Underbelly saga, because

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Speaker 2: I acted for quite a few of the participants in

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Speaker 2: the Underbelly from the top Colorful Identities, the Colorful Sydney

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Speaker 2: Identities and I and I was being asked about things

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Speaker 2: that as the responsible partner for the legal the legal

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Speaker 2: facilities that we provided, I wasn't actually the solicitor on

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Speaker 2: the ground doing a lot of the work. It was

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Speaker 2: a couple of my employees. So but I had to

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Speaker 2: carry the can to the Crime Commission and it was

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Speaker 2: I found it nerve wracking. I found it. I was

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Speaker 2: angered by it and some of the inferences that were

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Speaker 2: being drawn. I've always tried to be above board with

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Speaker 2: the way I carry out my practice, and I was

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Speaker 2: a bit disappointed and.

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Speaker 1: In the witness box, in that environment in the Royal Commission.

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Speaker 1: That's increase in the pressure. There's a lot more pressure

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Speaker 1: than what I was talking about in the witness box

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Speaker 1: of the criminal trial. Moving on past the traumas that

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Speaker 1: I suffered in the witness box by people from your profession.

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Speaker 1: And might I say, and i'd give this advice to

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Speaker 1: young detectives. I'd see some police come out of the

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Speaker 1: witness box absolutely shocked that they've been criticized because they

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Speaker 1: haven't done anything wrong. And I was pain to explain,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you've done everything right, there's still

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Speaker 1: going to be criticism. This is a way of an

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Speaker 1: adversarial system. They're going to try to pull apart what

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Speaker 1: you've done and the decisions you've made and the things

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Speaker 1: that you've seen and said.

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Speaker 2: That's true, Gary, but it's probably it's less so now.

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Speaker 2: As I was saying earlier about the advances in forensic technology,

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Speaker 2: the need for police officers to get into the witness

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Speaker 2: box has become less than it was in the past.

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Speaker 2: Police officers tend to gather evidence more than being involved

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Speaker 2: in the case. They go out as investigators, they get

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Speaker 2: the evidence, or they've already got the evidence because it's

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Speaker 2: transcribed recording transcriptions of recordings or they are recordings, they've

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Speaker 2: got photographic evidence, which tends to make the job easier

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Speaker 2: for the prosecution in terms of its presentation and coming

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Speaker 2: to the defense loves and saying well, try and get

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Speaker 2: over this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see what you're saying. And that probably answers

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Speaker 1: why the police don't had that experience, because I remember

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Speaker 1: my early days in playing clothes. I was in the

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Speaker 1: witness box virtually every week there'd be some matter that

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Speaker 1: you're called to give evidence on, and of course this

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Speaker 1: is going way back, but when I came in the

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Speaker 1: electronic recording of interviews, that took a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: out of instead of the type written Q and as.

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Speaker 2: While I was around when there were the verbals, the

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Speaker 2: police verbals as they were called.

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Speaker 1: And.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, rasps are are advantageous and can be to both

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Speaker 2: sides if they use properly. But normally I would tell

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Speaker 2: my clients never participate in an ARRASP because my advice

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Speaker 2: to them is normally in a police station, so it's

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Speaker 2: in their house. They'rey asking the questions, and you've been

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Speaker 2: plucked and are in a state of shock, so the

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Speaker 2: worst time to try and gather your thoughts and answer questions.

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Speaker 1: Well, that comes as a surprise. I've never heard a

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Speaker 1: defenseless as say no, don't participate in an interview. I've

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Speaker 1: been at bit cynical. There, tell me about from your

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Speaker 1: point of view, if someone comes to you, someone gets

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Speaker 1: themselves in the trouble, or someone's been charged with a

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Speaker 1: by police, what's the process? So they get in contact

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Speaker 1: with you and say, hey, Greg, I want you to

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Speaker 1: represent me. I've been charged with this offense. Where do

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Speaker 1: you start from there? Talk us through the process.

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Speaker 2: I started off straight away by looking at what the

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Speaker 2: charges are and then going what is set out in

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Speaker 2: the fact sheet? That's the fact sheet is a version

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Speaker 2: of events that the officer in charge has formulated based

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Speaker 2: on the evidence they've got at that particular time. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's going to tell me in a reasonably accurate way

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Speaker 2: the strength of the case and whether there's any holes

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Speaker 2: in it that are going to assist in me stopping

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Speaker 2: the police from eventually proving their case beyond reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you got the brief of evidence, You have a

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Speaker 1: conference with the client, I would imagine, yep, And what

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Speaker 1: sort of advice or what without giving a specific example,

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Speaker 1: what sort of advice general advice are you providing to

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Speaker 1: the client.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling the client, on the basis of what

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Speaker 2: i'm reading now, what your prospects are likely to be.

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Speaker 2: And unless you can explain what is said about your behavior,

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Speaker 2: which is criminal, that's going to change my mind or

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Speaker 2: provide us with a defense, then I'm going to be saying, well,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have to consider your position, and these

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Speaker 2: are your options. You complete guilty and get a lot

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Speaker 2: of sentence. We can ask for particulars, we can take

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Speaker 2: various make various applications in the court to get more information.

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Speaker 2: But generally, as an experienced criminal lawyer, you read the facts,

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Speaker 2: You've got a pretty good idea of which way you're heading.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you've got a brief. Let's use an example.

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Speaker 1: I've charged someone with murder. It's a brief. I consider

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Speaker 1: it the strong brief murder. We're likely to be going

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Speaker 1: through the trial without giving the way you trade secrets.

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Speaker 1: What do you go through looking at the brief? Do

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Speaker 1: you look at failings in that we've legislation, that we've

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Speaker 1: breached something, or there's a hole in this particular proof

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Speaker 1: of the offense. What type of things are you looking

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Speaker 1: for when you're dissecting the brief evidence.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you look at what the factual

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Speaker 2: circumstances are and whether the facts are based upon inferences.

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Speaker 2: That's connecting the dots on the basis of what you

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Speaker 2: expected to have happened or what the police know happened. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's firstly the thing. You look at what's the factual

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Speaker 2: scenario here and can that be established without speculation. The

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Speaker 2: second thing is you then go to the technical aspects

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Speaker 2: of the case in terms of what then can be

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Speaker 2: proved in a court of law, because what's put in

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Speaker 2: a fact sheet, we're in a statement is not necessarily

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Speaker 2: compliant with the rules of evidence.

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Speaker 1: So that's okay. And then you've got the brief. You

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Speaker 1: going to court, do you get access to witnesses or

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Speaker 1: you speak to your client and make a decision whether

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Speaker 1: they're going to get in the witness box or not.

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Speaker 2: How do you.

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Speaker 1: Approach a strategy for prepping for a trial? I'm talking

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Speaker 1: general sense here, so each trial, I would imagine that

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Speaker 1: have its own issues. How do you prepare for a trial?

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Speaker 2: Well, unlike other states in Australia who still have local

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Speaker 2: court proceedings where you can examine witnesses, New South Wales

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Speaker 2: is to a large extent done away with that system,

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Speaker 2: the committal system. It was as a result of a

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Speaker 2: legend case called the Greek Conspiracy which went for months

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Speaker 2: and months and months as a committal proceeding down at

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Speaker 2: Central Local Court and clogged up the whole local court

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Speaker 2: system for a long time, or the Court of Petty

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Speaker 2: Sessions as it was then called. But ultimately there are

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Speaker 2: there are ways of asking for further material, asking for particulars.

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Speaker 2: There's a procedure called section eighty two of the Criminal

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Speaker 2: PROCEDURECT which allows us to ask for witnesses. But you're

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Speaker 2: not going to get a witness or a victim of

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Speaker 2: a sexual assault because it's too traumatic. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to get a victim of a serious violent offense. So

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Speaker 2: you're really really left with looking at what's available through

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Speaker 2: the evidence, calculating what, as I was saying before, what

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Speaker 2: is based upon inference or speculation, and what can be

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Speaker 2: actually proved. You then have to think about what your

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Speaker 2: client's going to say and you have to make an

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Speaker 2: assessment of their ability to withstand the rigors of the

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Speaker 2: witness box. Now you've already spoken Gary about how tough

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Speaker 2: it is, and I know from personal experience it can

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Speaker 2: be tough and the average person is simply not equipped

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Speaker 2: generally to handle that type of pressure. And so it's

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Speaker 2: very rarely that you'd called you call your client in

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Speaker 2: a trial. In fact, as an ould saying amongst criminal

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Speaker 2: is that the best your case I'll ever be is

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Speaker 2: at the end of the crown case. It's all downhill

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 1: And explaining that, I think people have a sense of

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Speaker 1: it that the crown case, that's the prosecution present their

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Speaker 1: case and then they rest their case. They've established If

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Speaker 1: they reach that benchmark and they've established the primer facy,

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Speaker 1: then it's a matter of the defense coming yes.

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Speaker 2: And to understand why you wouldn't call your client is

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Speaker 2: because there are two levels of proof in a criminal trial,

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Speaker 2: and that is the evidence being accepted by the judge,

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Speaker 2: not the jury at that stage, but by the judge

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Speaker 2: to what we call a primer facy level, or a

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Speaker 2: first level, which requires there to be evidence of the

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Speaker 2: commission of the crime, but not necessarily proof beyond reasonable

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Speaker 2: doubt of the crime. And that step from knowing that

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Speaker 2: someone may have committed the crime and then elevating that

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Speaker 2: to proof beyond reasonable doubt and that means that there's

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Speaker 2: no other explanation that's really consistent with innocence that had

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Speaker 2: explained that conduct being available. Now at the end of

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Speaker 2: the Crown case, you might be saying, well, I've punched

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Speaker 2: enough holes in this case for the jury to have

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Speaker 2: some doubts. I'll leave it at that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, no, I've seen it, seen it happen before.

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Speaker 1: We talk about some of your high profile cases and

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Speaker 1: some of the characters you've met, and the the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: world that you've seen in the over forty years practicing

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Speaker 1: criminal law in Sydney, the lovely queen Streets of Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Why did you get into law? What were first of

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Speaker 1: all your background, where'd you grow up and what inspired

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Speaker 1: you to become a lawyer?

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Speaker 2: Born in born in Couldji by the second son of

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Speaker 2: two avid rabbit o supporters. They've gled red and green.

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Speaker 2: Mum and dad ended up a rooster supporters somehow much

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Speaker 2: of their chagrin.

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Speaker 1: He would have been a shame of you.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, grew up in the Southern Shire, I

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Speaker 2: delic place for me to grow up, word around on

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Speaker 2: three sides, and went to a local Christian Brothers school,

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Speaker 2: did well at school, surprised evan myself in that regard,

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Speaker 2: and ended up at Sydney University doing arts law major

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Speaker 2: it in politics. Realized that's the last place I'd ever

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Speaker 2: want to be and drifted into law. Got myself a

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Speaker 2: job with a commercial firm as an article, one of

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Speaker 2: the last article clerks, and within two years I was out.

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Speaker 2: I hung up my own shingle, and just for reasons

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Speaker 2: that were driven by where could I get work? You

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Speaker 2: ended up in criminal law.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it wasn't the driving passion from the day

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Speaker 1: you went to kindergarten and you were accused of something

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Speaker 1: and you were going to defend people for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life. It was just something that you fell into.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just something that I fell into.

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Speaker 1: But your your reputation is that your passion and the

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Speaker 1: way that you go about your work, and you have

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Speaker 1: a good reputation. I say that not begrudgingly. It's I

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Speaker 1: think from a detective point of view, when I came

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Speaker 1: up against a good defend team, it would make me

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Speaker 1: raise my standard. So it's sort of it helps in

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Speaker 1: the way that you present your case. But what made

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Speaker 1: you follow the path of a defense lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've never prosecuted anyone. I can say that you

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Speaker 2: should try. It's great, but I don't know. I think

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Speaker 2: it was just, you know, I'm a bit of a

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Speaker 2: people person. I like to help people. I like to

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Speaker 2: see people who are entitled to representation get a job

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Speaker 2: done properly for them. And some people that say, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't happy with your work, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: others would say I did a good job, and that

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Speaker 2: really pleases me, and it upsets me that someone mightn't

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Speaker 2: have thought they got the best job done for them

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Speaker 2: because as a lawyer, as a criminal lawyer, as a professional,

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Speaker 2: that's what I strive to do and make a difference

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Speaker 2: in a person's life.

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Speaker 1: Is there a point in your career when you started

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Speaker 1: out that you got someone off a serious crime, or

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Speaker 1: off a crime that you believed that they're innocent. You

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Speaker 1: got them off and you went home that night, or

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Speaker 1: you felt, Okay, this is I'm achieving some good.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't name the cases, Gary, but there have been

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Speaker 2: cases where that's been the case, and I've felt really,

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Speaker 2: really pleased that the system worked for that person. I've

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Speaker 2: looked at systems in other parts of the world. I

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Speaker 2: haven't appeared in course elsewhere, only in Australia, and I

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Speaker 2: think we're reasonably lucky that in terms of the ability

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Speaker 2: of a system to provide fairness, this one does its best.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So that's interesting because I don't think it's infallible

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Speaker 1: the system. I think there's always room for improvement. I'd

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Speaker 1: like to talk talk to you about that later on,

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Speaker 1: but I got a sense and going through a police

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Speaker 1: career where I was prosecuting people for a long time

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Speaker 1: and then been on the other side of the prosecution

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Speaker 1: as the accused. It's quite confronting. And I always had

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Speaker 1: an understanding that you had the balance. It couldn't be

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Speaker 1: favored all for the defense or all for the prosecution,

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Speaker 1: but seeing it from having the full resources of the

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Speaker 1: state coming after you, and I was probably best set

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Speaker 1: up as anyone could be to defend myself in that

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Speaker 1: I understood the system and had the experience. But it

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Speaker 1: was intimidating.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's because it's an adversarial system. At the end

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Speaker 2: of the day. I regard going into a courtroom like

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Speaker 2: going onto a sporting pitch. It's no hols barred within

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Speaker 2: the rules of the game. Once you're in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: You've got to play according to the rules. But having

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Speaker 2: done that, you walk outside and you'll leave it there.

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Speaker 2: But it's not for the fainthearted, and you've got to

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Speaker 2: expect that you're not going to win every game it is.

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Speaker 1: It's and I think people need to under stand that.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know of anyone that's been exposed to court,

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Speaker 1: whether as a victim of crime or someone that's been

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Speaker 1: convicted of a crime, that it has an impact on you.

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Speaker 2: I enjoy it, so it's my daily bread. So I

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Speaker 2: enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you enjoy it because you've been doing

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Speaker 1: it for a very long time. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you're considering changing careers. Oh this was a wrong career.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you're going to be swopping places.

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Speaker 1: Well, don't get cocky. I thought I was going to

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Speaker 1: be a cop until the day I died. And look

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Speaker 1: at me. Now. You've met some interesting characters and had

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Speaker 1: some high profile cases, and I'll just rattle off a few.

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Speaker 1: And if there's cases that you're not comfortable talking about,

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Speaker 1: please tell me. If not, let me know of the

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Speaker 1: one of the people that you defended, Alan Meridian. He

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Speaker 1: was murdered in two thy and twenty three. I believe

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Speaker 1: he was, and there was a lead up to the murder.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to describe Allen and how you got

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Speaker 1: to represent him in your dealings with him, what you

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Speaker 1: thought of him and the circumstances leading up to his murder.

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Speaker 2: I've been involved with Alan going back to the to

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Speaker 2: a case that he was he was involved in which

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Speaker 2: caused him to serve a considerable amount of time in prison.

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Speaker 2: I ran into him afterwards and he asked me would

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Speaker 2: he would he or could he use my services if

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Speaker 2: that was needed? And whilst he didn't, he wasn't in

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Speaker 2: any further trouble he was so far as charges were concerned.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not talking about what he may have

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Speaker 2: been doing otherwise. But he came to see me, and

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Speaker 2: he also got some advice from me another another lawyer

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Speaker 2: who had had actually worked for me in relation to

361
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Speaker 2: trying to get out of the country because of fear

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Speaker 2: of being assassinated.

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Speaker 1: And to put it in context, he was a high

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Speaker 1: ranking member of the Commoneros.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't a particularly high ranking member, but because of

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Speaker 2: allegations about his involvement in other criminal activity, he had

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Speaker 2: a profile within that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well established, yes, in that world. Okay, So there's

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Speaker 1: fears that he was going to be killed. And I

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Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on some of the things

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Speaker 1: with the we call it the gang wars. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if that's a media so that they beat up,

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Speaker 1: but there's been a lot of public shootings and different

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Speaker 1: things going on. So at that particular point in time,

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Speaker 1: there was legitimate threats for his well being.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and he was aware of that, and he spoke

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Speaker 2: to me about that, and it was a burden on him,

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Speaker 2: it was a burden on his family, and it was

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Speaker 2: something that I think, from what we know now could

380
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Speaker 2: have or may have been avoided.

381
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Speaker 1: And how with the benefit of hindsight, but how it

382
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Speaker 1: could have been avoided.

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Speaker 2: Well, perhaps the police could have stepped in earlier. My

384
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Speaker 2: history of an experience of police officers, particularly in relation

385
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Speaker 2: to listening device availability and monitoring devices. When they hear

386
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Speaker 2: guns are involved, they jump in. If a shipment of

387
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: drugs is coming in, they'll watch it, but if someone

388
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Speaker 2: pulls out a gun, they're straight there. It didn't happen

389
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Speaker 2: with Allan, and that's a real disappointment that I feel

390
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Speaker 2: in relation to the way the police acted. Now, I

391
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 2: may be offbeen, but as I understand it, they watched

392
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Speaker 2: these people plan an assassination for a considerable period of time,

393
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Speaker 2: and maybe they could have done something better.

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Speaker 1: We see these people played out in the media, and

395
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Speaker 1: the media love the picture of the gangs on the

396
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Speaker 1: front page of the paper or the lead story in

397
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Speaker 1: the news. What was this particular person?

398
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Speaker 2: What was he like? So with me, he was a

399
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Speaker 2: very very intense type of person. On the one hand,

400
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Speaker 2: he could be he could be like your next door neighbor,

401
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: nice block on the other but Alan was certainly not

402
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: someone to be messed with. But in my dealings with him,

403
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Speaker 2: I always found him to be straight up, honest and

404
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: reliable in what he said and what he would do.

405
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: Okay, you had in dealings with him, and correct me

406
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, if I've got the information wrong. But

407
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Speaker 1: handing in a lot of firearms.

408
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: Too, I did. I've been asked sort of not to

409
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: talk about that back in the day, But yeah, that

410
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: was that that assisted in him in his case, and

411
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: it's on public record that it did assist him.

412
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, we'll speaking taken away from allan, but you've

413
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Speaker 1: had clients that have yeah to show that, Okay, I'm

414
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Speaker 1: changing my ways of handed in firearms and the police

415
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: are always keen to get firearms off the street. Have

416
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Speaker 1: you the gun buyback scheme run by Greg gul.

417
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Speaker 2: I had an interesting experience. And I'm not a particularly

418
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Speaker 2: a particular lover of firearms. My dad out of twenty

419
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 2: two back in the day when everyone had a twenty two.

420
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 2: Unfortunately shoot bandicoots in the backyard. But I got called

421
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: on to go down to Westpac Bank in Martin Place

422
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: and go to the vault and pick up what turned

423
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Speaker 2: out to be an old red Quantus bag with the

424
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: white flying kangaroo. And anyone who would have traveled with

425
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: the sixties or seventies in Quantus would have got one

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 2: of these carry on bags, little sports bag. It was

427
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: fall to the brim. It was absolutely chopper with ammunition

428
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Speaker 2: and pistols. And I won't name the name of the

429
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Speaker 2: person that gave it to, but I had. But I

430
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Speaker 2: was glad. I was a bit of a bit of

431
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: exercise at the time because I had to walk from

432
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Speaker 2: Martin Place up to the police center all right and

433
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: handed in and the sergeant looked at me when I

434
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: handed in and he said, ask me, was I serious

435
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: handing this in? And I said, well, absolutely, it's an amnesty.

436
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: He said, well, are you going to tell me anything

437
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: about it, mister Gilder, And I said, no names, no

438
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: pact or serge. It's yours.

439
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: I remember when the gun amnesty was in and people

440
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: would walk into the police station and hand hand weapons in.

441
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: Just over the county. You'd be there and they walk

442
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: in with all sorts of rifles and different things. One

443
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: of the things that was handed into you had resulted

444
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: in the army being notified and called the outher Blue.

445
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: I got an AR fifteen semi automatic Army Army Well

446
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: I think they're automatic weapons, but it had had the

447
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 2: grenade launcher attached to it, and I also got a

448
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: grenade with it.

449
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: Okay, they're always good there.

450
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: And it was this. It was about I'm not talking.

451
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: It was about five or six inches long, round around,

452
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: with a sort of a sort of round knob on

453
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: the end of it. And so I put it in

454
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: the bird of my car and drove up to First

455
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: of all, I rang the particular inspector who I was

456
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: dealing with. I think it might have been Arthur Cat

457
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: and Arthur had put a sergeant in touch with me

458
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 2: to deal with these sorts of things, and I told

459
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: them I was bringing in the rocket, the grenade, launch

460
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: around the grenade. It was all sorts also, who we

461
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: can't touch that, We've got to get the We've got

462
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: to get the army involved. And ended up having a

463
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: major from Ordinance come down and take control and I

464
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: had the bloody thing bumping around in the boot of

465
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: a car.

466
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll send you to a lecture about firearm

467
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: safety later. But it's amazing the type of things that

468
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: you get get called up in doing the work that

469
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: you're doing, and the time characters that you meet, and

470
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: there is you know, there's a fascination with true crime,

471
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: and I think people are particularly interested in the gangster types.

472
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: And you know, we see these these public shootings and

473
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: you think, how does this happen? You've had dealings with

474
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: other clients. Wally Ahmed also ended up on the wrong

475
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: end of a gun too.

476
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was. I acted for Wally and when

477
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: he was involved in a shooting at Condall Park of

478
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: Long Haired Danny. When I was involved in that, that

479
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: was an interesting one. And then so i'd sort of

480
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: acted for both sides, and I don't and I don't

481
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: take sides. Yeah, when a client comes into me, provided

482
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 2: there's no immediate conflict.

483
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Yeah, And I've heard that because I worked

484
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Gang Squad for a while and I heard some solicitors

485
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: are associated with this gang other because if there's a crossover,

486
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: there can be a conflict of interest.

487
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: I've been I've been warned off cases only once or twice,

488
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: and I won't go into who it was and who

489
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: it wasn't, but yeah, I was contacted and said, it's

490
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: not politically correct for you to be acting on this case.

491
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people that are upset about what happened.

492
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, there's a lot of threatened menace in

493
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: a comment like that, if it's from a particular person.

494
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt concerned for your welfare or compromise

495
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: with the type of people that you're dealing with, Like

496
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: I would imagine, and I know the characters and we

497
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: don't have to name particular ones, but someone would come

498
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: in and get Greg, I want to you get me off,

499
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: You get me off this. I don't care what it costs,

500
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: what you've got to do, get me off. And they

501
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: would really be going at you that way.

502
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 2: I haven't really had that sort of intensity Gary. People

503
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: come in and they say, you know it, can't you

504
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: do better than that? I say, look on what I've

505
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: got before me, on the case that the prosecution have

506
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: assembled against you, your chances of winning this case are minimal. Now.

507
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: If you want to waste your money and put yourself

508
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: up for a much higher sentence, then I suggest that

509
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: you reconsider. But if you want to get better news

510
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: from some other lawyer who's prepared to tell you that,

511
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: then off you go.

512
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: I think that probably safeguarded you because my under or

513
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: not my understanding, my dealings with people like that. If

514
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: you're up front, then they know where you stand, where

515
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: they stand, you're probably better off than making a false

516
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: promise you I'll get you off and then you'll be

517
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: looking living in fear for the rest of your life.

518
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: I don't have any I don't have any sleepless nights

519
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: because of that. The only time I was ever concerned

520
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: was when to senior detectives came to see me back

521
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: at a time when heroin was the drug of choice,

522
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: and it was might have been the late nineties or something,

523
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: and a senior sergeant from the Drug Task Force came

524
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: to see me and told me that there was a

525
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: contract on me. I was a bit disappointed to know

526
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: that it's not as much as get you get paid

527
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: these days. And it turned out that a rather roguish

528
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: Chinese client of mind had asked me to send money

529
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: overses back in the day when you could, and what

530
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: he told me it was going for was totally different

531
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: to what the reason it was going for, and then

532
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: he'd pocketed it when it got to Hong Kong. Okay,

533
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: So I got the blame.

534
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: You got called up in that. Well, there is potential

535
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: to get caught up in that as innos an agent

536
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: doing your job. Were you Were you involved in the

537
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: airport brawl the flow on effect from the airport brawl

538
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: I think two thousand and nine Common Cerios and the

539
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: Hell's Angels came to blows at Sydney Airport.

540
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: I was. I was acting for one of the common

541
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: Cero's and got to know quite a few of them

542
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: and was always of the opinion that my particular client

543
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: was innocent because he had no real involvement in it,

544
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: but because of the arduous nature of leaving a jail

545
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: at four thirty in the morning, traveling to the traveling

546
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: to the court, being kept in cells underground, never seen

547
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: the light of day, and getting back to the jail

548
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: at eight o'clock is first arduous and difficult for anyone

549
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: when you're morbidly obese and your health is a real issue. Michael,

550
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: I didn't think you could take it and pleaded guilty

551
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: to Manselord, totally against my advice.

552
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 1: I was on call in gang squad when it happened,

553
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of trouble brewing within the

554
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: gangs at the time. I'd been out all night. There'd

555
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: been sixth places, six or seven places shot up that night. Men,

556
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm just driving home. And then the stuff that happened

557
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: at the airport, I think there was. I was in

558
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: gang squad at the time. I didn't work the case.

559
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: I had some other cases. I think Steve French, detective inspector,

560
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: was the officer in charge. But fifteen people were charged

561
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: all up with a fray and different offenses.

562
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: Is that and murder? Yeah?

563
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: And murder? Mick Howie, Mick Howie, you again is another

564
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: person that ended up at the wrong end of a gun?

565
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's well. It seems to be that Sydney,

566
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: particularly in the last twenty to thirty years, has changed

567
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: in that respect. I think for those who know what

568
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: the Raptor Squad does and what they deal with mostly,

569
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: I think there's been a distinct change in the way

570
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: criminals conduct themselves in their dealings with each other. The

571
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: ego seems to be so important. Greed seems to be paramount,

572
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: and you would think when you hear the statistics of

573
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: the amount of drugs that are brought into Australia and

574
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 2: what comes in, that there's enough for everybody. Not that

575
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: that's right, Not that I'm saying that's right in the

576
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: context of you know, how many midiings do you want?

577
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: And do you have to go and kill someone because

578
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: they got more than you.

579
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: I'm watching it, watching it from the sidelines now, obviously,

580
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: But in my early days in major crime, the shootings

581
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: were quite often the person that disappear, you know, put

582
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: on the boat and taken out the sea and never

583
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 1: never seen again. That those were the type of murders

584
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: that were investigating. Now it almost seems like there's a

585
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: statement being made that the amount of people who are

586
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: shot coming out of the gym or whatever in public

587
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: places and letting shots fire. I don't you know, I

588
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: don't want to compromise you talking about specific cases. But

589
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: do you see because you've been involved in it and

590
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: seeing it, do you see that nature of the crime

591
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: crime change?

592
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: Well? I do, and I see and what I see,

593
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: Gary is that And you'd recognize this that twenty years

594
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: ago these guys who were prepared to do this sort

595
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: of thing were doing drive by. Now they're prepared to

596
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 2: stake out a location, watch the intended victim, and then

597
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: get out of cars, walk up to the victim and

598
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: pump a magazine full of bullet to him from point

599
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: blank range.

600
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well you're right on that because the day or

601
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: the night before the airport brawl. Yeah, as I said,

602
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: seven houses have been shut up, and they were all

603
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: drive by. They were the statements. But then it's escalated

604
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: to the point, well, we're not going to do it

605
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: just random drive by. We're going to wait till the

606
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: target comes out and blow them my way.

607
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

608
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's a violent, violent situation and an extreme situation.

609
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: But you mentioned Raptor, and I talk about Raptor in

610
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: that Raptor was formed on the back of what happened

611
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: at the airport, because that was up until that point

612
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: in time. You had the Father's Day massacre with the

613
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: bikes where six or seven people were killed way back

614
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: in the back in the eighties, but the violence wasn't public.

615
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: And when that happened at the airport, you can't have

616
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: Sydney Airport and someone caught up in the brawl and

617
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: someone dying die in a brawl like that, them Raptor

618
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: was formed and it was really the public had had enough,

619
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: the politicians had had enough, and the police had to

620
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: do something. Now, I know there's different views on Raptor,

621
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: and I don't need you the comment, but I know

622
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 1: the difference it made in that world at the time.

623
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: Well, it's when I look back on my career, what

624
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: I've seen is that when I first started it, there

625
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: was a lot of There was a lot of robberies,

626
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: armed robberies. Drugs weren't Drugs weren't as available. But with

627
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: the Vietnam War particularly, and the influx of what we

628
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: used to be buddhistics, which was cannabis coming in and

629
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 2: heroin coming in. Cocaine had been around few years but

630
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: was sort of running under the radar. And having been criminalized.

631
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: Back in the early part of the last century, meth

632
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: was really just speed, it was a it was a

633
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: biky drug, which was we used to say it's poor

634
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: man's cocaine. And most crime was under the radar. But

635
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: the last twenty five thirty years have seen ego and

636
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: I think sort of the look at me generation has

637
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: influenced the way that crime has exploded. People want to

638
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 2: be seen as criminals rather than criminals being under the radar,

639
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: out of sight, making their money punting most of it

640
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: away at the races of the tab But these days

641
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: it's a look at me generation and the influences the

642
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: criminal influencers want to.

643
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: Be saying, I hadn't thought of it that way, but

644
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: these almost generational because I know, as you know, some

645
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: of the good crooks getting around, they slip under the radar.

646
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: They don't stick their head up and you know they're

647
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: doing major stuff, but they don't flaunt it. So yeah,

648
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting, but it's problematic. That makes it. Yeah, police

649
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: have got to respond, like the underworld could operate and

650
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: I think the word the underworld operate under the cover,

651
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: but when they commit crime so publicly, well, the public

652
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: are not going to accept that, and the politicians and

653
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: the police and everyone's got to act on it. Let's

654
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: let's just change change tacked a little bit. We'll get

655
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: more into your stories, because you've got thousands of them

656
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: on different people that you've come across. But we guilty, please,

657
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: And we touched on it briefly about that. Have you

658
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: when you're representing the client? Have you ever had a

659
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: client that you've just gone, I can't represent you. Has

660
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: it ever got to that point?

661
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: I can't immediately think of anybody, But I've been lucky

662
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: in that I haven't been or my practice hasn't been

663
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: one of those practice that does a lot of historical sex.

664
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: I've filed myself lucky in that respect, and not for

665
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: my own personal experience, but from experience within my extended family.

666
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: I've had experience that how sexual assaults, both in a

667
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: family situation or an extended family situation, can have really

668
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: lasting effects. And I actually have a lot of respect

669
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: for those practitioners who do that work, because not only

670
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: the practitioners, but the judges who are involved in it.

671
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: It's a really difficult area of and I'm lucky enough

672
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: not to have to deal with that when you've got

673
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: juveniles and young people involved who've been sexually abused, it's

674
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 2: terrific stuff.

675
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 1: I've got a greater understanding any the work that I've done,

676
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: more so since i've been from the police, speaking to

677
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people who have been victims of childhood

678
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: sexual assault. And even the time that I spent in

679
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: prison doing the Breaking Bad podcast series, the amount of

680
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: people in prison that were victims of child sexual abuse

681
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: was quite frightening. And when you sat down and heard

682
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: their stories. And we're always looking at ways of reducing crime,

683
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: society wants crime to be reduced, I think we've really

684
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: got to look at the impact that child sexual abuse

685
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 1: has because people carry that with them. And yeah, you've

686
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: talked and I'm not saying any of the clients you've had,

687
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: all the people that we've mentioned here on the podcast,

688
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: but quite often these big, tough, taboo covered bikis that

689
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: you don't mess with me, look about them. When you

690
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: scratch the surface, go right back. It's because something that's

691
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: happened in their childhood and they never want to be

692
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:45,479
Speaker 1: victims again.

693
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: Oh well, we're all products of our upbringings. Yeah, and

694
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: the influences that we've had in our lives, and hopefully

695
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: for most of us they're all positive. But for those

696
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 2: who haven't been that fortunate and haven't had the breaks

697
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: with their parents, with their schooling, with the amount of

698
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 2: money in the family, with food on the table, you know,

699
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: life could be pretty tough, and you make choices that

700
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: you might have otherwise made if you'd had the breaks

701
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: that the bloke standing next to you had.

702
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: I suppose you get to see that too. You would

703
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: get closer to the people who have been in charge

704
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 1: with criminal offenses than I would from the police point

705
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: of view, So you get to understand, you get to

706
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: meet the family more. You would understand that. That's your

707
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: take on it. And you said before we sat down

708
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: that you don't like to be judgmental on people unless

709
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: you understand where what path they've walked.

710
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: Now, that's been one of my one of my sort

711
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 2: of mantras that I go, but you can't walk in

712
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: another man's shoes, and there but for the grace of

713
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: God go I. And coming from a person who doesn't

714
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: believe in God, that was called well in Catholicism. You know,

715
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: you've got to be very careful about how you judge

716
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: a fellow man, and in relation to do a criminal practice,

717
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: as I indicated to you Willia Gary, I think sentencing,

718
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: particularly for judges, is an extremely difficult area of law.

719
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: What do I cringe from a police point of view

720
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: where I hear mandatory sentencing and I know that's a

721
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: chest beating comment that's made where crime appears to be

722
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: out of control and okay, we're going to get tough

723
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: and mandatory sentencing. What horrifies me about that is that

724
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: each case should be judged on its own individual merits.

725
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: You can't just if you've committed that offense you should

726
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: be there's non negotiable, You're going the way for ten years.

727
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: It just doesn't sit with me. Well, what's your thoughts on.

728
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: I agree with that, and there are very few crimes

729
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: in our criminal calendar, in the Crimes Act that carry

730
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: a mandatory sentence. Interestingly enough, is assault occasioning death as

731
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: an aggravated offense carries a mandatory sentence of eight years.

732
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: So that's like the coward punch and the history of

733
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: all that is unfortunate because of what happened with that

734
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: poor young Kelly Fellow and the reaction to that was

735
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: was quite remarkable. But all political more than legal.

736
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: We had Kelly's parents on the podcast and it's yeah,

737
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: it's just such a sad situation, sad, sad story. And

738
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: I like the fact that they've changed the narrative and

739
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: calling it the coward punch. I think that's good changing

740
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: changing that. But I'm also very much aware that you know,

741
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: people walking down the street, you know someone could lash

742
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: out and you know, horrible situation happens and they're mandatory

743
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: eight years in eight years in prison or whatever did

744
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: you say? Eight years mandatory eight years and the nature

745
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: of the offense might warrant that, but the judge's hands

746
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: are tied to send that person.

747
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 2: That's true. That was all round. That was an absolutely

748
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: disastrous piece of history that New South Wales has got

749
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 2: to live with because it wasn't just the Kelly family

750
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: that was decimated, which is tragic. About two thousand people

751
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: lost their jobs in King's Cross and these people who

752
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 2: have been working in that industry for a long time.

753
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 2: And if anyone knows what it's like to go to

754
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: work every day with the same people for years and

755
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: years and years and all of a sudden you haven't

756
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: got a job.

757
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: The licensing law changes and yeah, all that that impacted

758
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: on it.

759
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: You're in no man's land. Your whole life goes down

760
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: the drain. So it wasn't just that aspect of a

761
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: person who deserved to be punished going to jail and

762
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: a poor family being totally decimated. Thousands of people were

763
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: impacted by all that.

764
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, if it was cleaning up the streets of

765
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: King's Cross. I was living at Piermouth at the time

766
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: and all ended up down that end of town.

767
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: Well the Star city got it all. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

768
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: I was living there there for a running the morning, dodging,

769
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: dodging things.

770
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: And the impact of that on Sydney as an after

771
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: dark city we're still suffering from it. I think Christmins

772
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: is trying to do an admirable job in bringing the

773
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,479
Speaker 2: life back to Sydney after dark.

774
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree. I think we need to know

775
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: we're a big world city and needs needs to have

776
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: that after ours sensing for drug matters and again, and

777
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: you learn a lot putting a foreign into a something,

778
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: a different environment, foreign environment that you're not used to,

779
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: but time spending in prison speaking to the inmates and

780
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: the amount of prisoners there that started using drugs and

781
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: then I'll buy a bigger bag and I'll give that

782
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: to my mates, and then I'll buy a bigger and

783
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: end up in jail and then doing very very long

784
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: sentences in jail. And I'm thinking, well, I've been charging

785
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: people with murder that aren't getting this, and I know

786
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: the damage that drugs done, that can do. But I

787
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: was shocked how many people are doing such lengthy senses

788
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: for drug dealing.

789
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: I'm pleased to say that in New South Wales our

790
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 2: sentencing in relation to drugs is generally pretty humane. Don't

791
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 2: go to Western Australia. They wack you out of the

792
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: park over there unnecessarily. I think it's in humane the

793
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: sentences they give over there. But yeah, there's a lot

794
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: of people doing long sentences, and it's strange that because

795
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: of the fact that you've got to demand, which is

796
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: informed by people wanting to enjoy themselves or think they're

797
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: going to enjoy themselves, but being totally ignorant of how

798
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: that drug got to them, the journey from South America

799
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: or from some meth lab or from the Netherlands of

800
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: its pills and so forth. But generally it's quite it's

801
00:45:53,680 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: quite difficult to understand the sentences that people do get

802
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: when you're being asked to provide something to a group

803
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: of people who want something. No one wants to be murdered,

804
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: no one wants to be sexually assaulted, and that's done

805
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: by a person who is is not is deserved a

806
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: greater deal of punishment. So it's a really typical area

807
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: of the law. But we're told in the in a

808
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: society where I think there's got a lot to do

809
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: with Queen Victoria and Catholics who said, if it makes

810
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: you feel good, you must it must be bad, it

811
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: must be a sin. I can't understand in the society

812
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: in which we can we can do heart transplants and

813
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: we can save people's lives on an operating table, and

814
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: we can have drugs for this and drugs for that

815
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: that they can't give drugs to keep people who want

816
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: to use them as safe and allow them to have

817
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: a different experience. I just don't understand it. And all this,

818
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: all this industry that creates death and stryduction could be avoided.

819
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's thinking outside the square and it wouldn't

820
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: be without controversy. Taking what you're saying and putting it

821
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: in practice, but.

822
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,959
Speaker 2: One provides a way Tiller retire.

823
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: Bears your business, Greg, jeez, well done. But yeah, I've

824
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: often looked at what we're doing and you hear the

825
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: war on drugs and all the commentary that comes with it,

826
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: and it hasn't really worked. Drugs are still on the street,

827
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: and maybe we're going to change our thinking well transportation.

828
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: When the first letter I didn't work either, I was

829
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 2: still stuff and we're still going through the same process.

830
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: What I'm really really pleased about, though, Gary, is the

831
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: way that that jails are changing, and there we're starting

832
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: that the people who run the jails are starting to

833
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 2: turn out human beings rather than criminals, and that's something

834
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: that we can be pleased with. I know a lot

835
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: of people want revenge and they want to see people

836
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: locked up forever because they've been individually affected by it.

837
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: But we live in a state run society where the

838
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: state determines punishment the state, and we don't sort of

839
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: live in a tribal society where you go and get

840
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: an eye for an eye and so forth. And it's

841
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: pleasing from certainly a criminal lawyer's point of view, that

842
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: the jails are starting to improve and people might look

843
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: at the new Hunter section of the CESSNA and say,

844
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: I look what these criminals are getting. They haven't got

845
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: their freedom.

846
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: We greg You've got. I concur one hundred percent with

847
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: what you're talking about there. And Macquarie Correctional Center, which

848
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: is on the same vein as Hunter, and what they're

849
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: doing there and the way that they're treating prisoners. That

850
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: was the whole premise of going in corrective services in

851
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: by the men in the prison. They had a look

852
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: at it and I can't champion it enough. What is

853
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: happening in there, because the high recidivism rate that we have,

854
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: we've got to try and break that. So Michael, and Yeah,

855
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: someone that's known to you and someone that I've mentioned

856
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 1: often here became a good friend before he passed away,

857
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: Bernie Matthews, who did a lot of time in prison,

858
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: a lot of time in the hard prisons in Grafton

859
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: and Ktingle. He was the longest serving prisoner in Ktingle,

860
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: the first supermax. And he said to me, you treat

861
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: this like animals were going to come out like animals.

862
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: And what I saw at Macquarie Correctional Center there was

863
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: respect between the inmates and the corrective services stuff, and

864
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: you know it's not always perfect, but there was definitely

865
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: a different vibe in that prison, and the people I

866
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: was talking to seemed a lot more prepared to come

867
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: out into society and integrate back into society than other

868
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: prisons that I've been in, where you feel the tension

869
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: you walk in there. Everyone's bridged up and everyone's ready

870
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: to go. And some of the prisoners said to me

871
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: when I was in there, you put us in a

872
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: jar when you open the cell doors, and the moment

873
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: we walk out, we're looking for where the next bit

874
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 1: of dangers coming from, and it's about survival, and then

875
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: you open the door and put us back in the streets.

876
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: We've still got that attitude. So if someone that insults

877
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: me or someone does something that annoys me, my natural

878
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 1: reaction is I'm going to react like I would in prison.

879
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: And it makes sense when it's explained that way, doesn't it.

880
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: It does, it doesn't. And that's built upon looking at

881
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: people in terms of why they committed a cry and

882
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: then going back to that sentencing aspect that we're talking

883
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: about before, and crafting a sentence that's going to punish them.

884
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 2: Because there are seven different aspects to sentencing which includes

885
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: deterrents and acknowledgment and protection of the community and the

886
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 2: punishment of the offender.

887
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 1: Can you break that down? That just explain that because

888
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people we all make comments,

889
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: so that person didn't get enough or that was a

890
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: big sentence. What's the criteria when you're looking at that.

891
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: There are seven criteria. Don't ask me to name them all,

892
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: but there's and they each have equal value. First of all,

893
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: person's got to be punished for what they've done. They've

894
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: got to acknowledge what they've done. They've got to be

895
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: put in a position where the community is safe. Other

896
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 2: members of our society have got to be deterred from

897
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: doing the same things by virtue of the punishment that

898
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: that particular criminal receives. And importantly too, that person's got

899
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 2: to be rehabilitated. In the children's court, rehabilitation takes the

900
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: primary place because there's a view which is right that

901
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 2: children that have a chance of being saved. Unfortunately, that

902
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: doesn't always happen because a lot of the times they

903
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: go into the very environments which cause them to commit

904
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: crime in the first place. But yeah, sentencing has to

905
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: look at all those aspects and if you go into

906
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: an environment where everything's taken away from including respect, then

907
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 2: you're never going to have any respect. And ultimately it

908
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: saves the community money. People don't go back to jail.

909
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: Well, it saves money. And I spoke to someone about

910
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: a family member of victim of crime about what they're

911
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: doing in Macquarie and Hunter and this person, I've mentioned

912
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: him before, I can mention him again. I know he's

913
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: comfortable with me talking about it. Ken marslw whose son

914
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: was some was murdered and he set up enough is

915
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: Enough and was protesting and truth in sentencing and all

916
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: sorts of things. Over the past twenty years, he's channeled

917
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: his energy differently in that how can we prevent crime?

918
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 1: And I asked Ken, because I get on this platform

919
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: about what they're doing in prison, I think is better

920
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: than the more traditional way prisons were done. But I

921
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: wanted to feel comfortable that I'm not forgetting the victim's

922
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: point of view on this. And Ken made the point

923
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: that it's not about getting tough on crime, it's getting

924
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: smart on crime, and that if you reduce crime, you

925
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: reduce victims. So it seems like a no brainer. And

926
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: if that's what that prison system that we've been talking

927
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: about does, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.

928
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: It does, And I think that you might remember that

929
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 2: you need a copy.

930
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

931
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: Her father had a very very pragmatic view, very much

932
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: like Ken's, and it was not put aside his anger

933
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: and his revenge and thought about how can we make

934
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: the system better. That's it's hard for victims or victims

935
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 2: families to come to that position, but it's a position,

936
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, that is worthwhile.

937
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, it's worthwhile and utmost respect for them

938
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: that they can do that. Ken would say, and Gary

939
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: Lynch neither Cobby's father. Ken would make the point that

940
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: he's still got the anger, he will always have the anger,

941
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 1: but he's not going to let it destroy him. He's

942
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: going to channel it into something positive. And I find

943
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: that quite inspirational. On what Gary Lynch did as well,

944
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: we might we might take a break now when we

945
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: get back, we're going to talk about more of your

946
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: k I'm also going to ask you, if you've ever

947
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: fired a gun in the courthouse, have a think about that.

948
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: You can get you can get some legal advice during

949
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: the break.

950
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 2: If you need.

951
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: And I'm going to give you another question on notice.

952
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 1: Have you ever come across a good detective, Like forty

953
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: years you must have had someone that you can say.

954
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 1: Think about it, and we'll come back in part two

955
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: and talk about your more about your fascinating career and

956
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: your insights in the law and order.

957
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: I'll put my mind to it and during the break

958
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:30,720
Speaker 2: carry cas.

959
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:31,439
Speaker 1: Jeez,