1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: A warning for listeners that this series contains graphic details, 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: including references to murder and rape. He's been dubbed Australia's 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: greatest detective and he's arguably got the highest conviction rate 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: out of any other homicide investigator in Victoria, maybe even 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: the entire country. 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: A policing legend. 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 3: He's arguably one of Australia's greatest detectives. 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 4: Ron Iddls has seen people at their best and their. 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 5: Very worst, solving ninety nine percent of three hundred and 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 5: twenty murder investigations. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 4: Ron would never want to be called that, but I'm 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 4: happy to call them one of the best. 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 5: So what I've always said is the answersize in the file. 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 4: Most of the people that I've dealt with aren't bad 15 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 4: or evil. 16 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 5: They just made poor choices. We might have the skills 17 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 5: to interview and we have the skills to put it together, 18 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 5: but the information comes from eyewitnesses and comes from the community. 19 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: Former Detective Ron iddles spent over two decades out of 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: his forty year policing career investigating more than three hundred 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: homicides and infamous murders in the Victoria Police homicide Squad. 22 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: But the mystery of who murdered Susan Bartlett and Susanne 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Armstrong had lingered for decades as the case sat idle 24 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: in the cold case unit and passed through the hands 25 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: of a string of investigators, including Ron himself many years later. 26 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: But it may have been Ron's chance encounter with a 27 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: teenage Perry Krumblus when he was a junior officer almost 28 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: fifty years ago that resulted in one of this case's 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: most promising leads. Now Ron and Perry sit face to 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: face in a Melbourne court as the public learns for 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: the first time exactly how their meeting unfolded and how 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: a list of more than one hundred and thirty persons 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: of interest was whittled down to just one. My name 34 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: is Olivia Jenkins, and I'm a crime reporter at the 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: Herald's Son and this is hunting justice the Easy Street murders. 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: We'll learn all about how the young Ron Iddles came 37 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: face to face with Perry Krumbulus later in this episode, 38 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: but first let's go back to the crime scene. By Friday, 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: the fourteenth of January nineteen seventy seven, twenty eight year 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: old Susan Bartlett and twenty seven year old Susanne Armstrong 41 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: had been dead for four days, there was no murder 42 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: weapon in sight, and the pool of potential killers was growing. 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: By that point. Detectives knew at least three different men 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: had been to the two sus home between when they 45 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: were killed and when neighbors Alona Stevens and Janet Powell 46 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: had discovered their bodies. 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 5: Eighty Street was remarkable in that it threw up a 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 5: range of suspects, all of about the same height. They 49 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 5: didn't have a standout suspect the police at the start, 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 5: and in fact they didn't actually have what would turn 51 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 5: out to be the main suspect really at all. What 52 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 5: they had were about eight potentials that are pretty keen 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 5: on and you can't blame them. 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: That's veteran crime writer Andrew Rule again, who you've heard 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: before in this series. 56 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 5: They were very keen early doors on. The two brothers 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 5: a Shearer or two Shearers. I think they were brothers 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 5: from Yiraba who knew Susan Armstrong. I think one of 59 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 5: them had gone out with her or whatever, and the 60 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 5: police said, well, he's got a motive, you know, often 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 5: a thing. Then there was other people who had visited. 62 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: The house detectives immediately set their sights on one of 63 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: the men who had visited the home during that crucial window, 64 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: Susanne Armstrong's new boyfriend, third one year old shearer Barry Woodard. 65 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: Remember in the last episode when we mentioned how he 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: and his brother Henry went to one four seven Easy 67 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Street on the night of Wednesday, January thirteenth. The brothers 68 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: pulled up to the home in Barry's white Hole in 69 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: SD because his and his sister's calls to Suzanne kept 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: going unanswered. When the brothers get there, there's already a 71 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: note pinned to the front door, the one written by 72 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: Alona Stevens. Barry says he and Henry called out to 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: the sus and knocked on their door, and when there 74 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: was still no answer, they walked around the side of 75 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: the house down the laneway. Barry says when they got 76 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: to the back door, it was half open and it 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: looked like a light was on in the kitchen, but 78 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: there was still no sign of Susan or Suzanne. So 79 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: the pair wrote a note asking Suzanne to give Barry 80 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: a call whenever she could and placed it on the 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: kitchen table. Henry suggested they look through the other rooms 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: in the house in case the girls were there, but 83 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: Barry says he he didn't want to go looking into 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: someone else's home, so they left. The brothers both say 85 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: they had no idea Susan and Suzanne had been lying 86 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: dead just meters away towards the front of the house. 87 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: Barry was among the first to be interviewed by police 88 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: over the Sue's murders, and detectives turned up the pressure 89 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: on him right away, outright, asking him if he had 90 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: some sort of sexual motivation for killing them, something Barry 91 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: denies to this day. He told the committal hearing late 92 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: last year. 93 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: They blamed me all the time, and it wasn't me. 94 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: I'll tell you that now. I never even had sex 95 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: with her in the time I met her, So there 96 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: you go. They were even trying to say I've done it. 97 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the guts to do that. God Almighty. 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: Suspects and witnesses have died, some are too sick to 99 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: recount their versions of events again, and those who knew 100 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: the sues had been afraid for decades that answers would 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,559 Speaker 1: come far too late for everyone still alive who needed 102 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: to hear them the most. Barry's now eighty years old. 103 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: He lives back in the country, and as he sat 104 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: in a local courtroom giving evidence through a webcam, it's 105 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: clear that modern technology understandably isn't his strong suit. Some 106 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: specific details, like the exact time he and Henry pulled 107 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,239 Speaker 1: up to the home and who of the two wrote 108 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: the note, are hazy for him, But the one thing 109 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: that endoys in between blurry timelines and missing memories is 110 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: his frustration at having the finger pointed at him at all. 111 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: But what Barry can recall clearly fifty years later as 112 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: he gives evidence that Perry Kurumbliss's committal, is how persistent 113 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: investigators were with him and the tactics they used to 114 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: try to get him to confess to a crime he 115 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: had always maintained he never committed. Barry said one detective told. 116 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: Him, I think you did it, boy. 117 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: And he also feared what police might do to him. 118 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: I had to put my legs up under the table 119 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: in case they kicked me. 120 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: It wasn't unusual, though, that investigators would want to zero 121 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: in on Barry and his brother Henry. Early on. The 122 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: numbers tell us that most people, particularly women, are killed 123 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: by someone they know, and more often than not by 124 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: a partner or a boyfriend. He's journalist and author Helen Thomas, 125 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: who you heard from last episode. 126 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 4: The sort of main persons of interest were Barry Woodard, 127 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 4: who had visited the house the night before the bodies 128 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 4: were found and left a note for Suzanne because he'd 129 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 4: taken her out once or twice and had tried to 130 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: get her on the phone, had no luck, and so 131 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 4: it popped round to the house to see, you know, 132 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 4: if she'd been there, and left a note asking her 133 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 4: to call him. So he was obviously someone the police 134 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 4: wanted to talk to. 135 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: But Andrew Rule says it seems like Barry and Henry 136 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: were caught up in a series of suspicious coincident and 137 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: those coincidences have followed the Woodard brothers and their families 138 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: ever since. 139 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 5: Police are suspicious, obviously, and they don't really believe in 140 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 5: coincidences really mostly and mostly they're right. But in this 141 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 5: case it was a coincidence. These guys had gone around 142 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 5: the back gate, which has never really shut, gone in 143 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 5: the back door which has never really locked. It was 144 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 5: a long, skinny, sort of shotgun shack house with a 145 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 5: hallway with bedrooms opening off it, and the kitchens and 146 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 5: bathrooms and all that were always down in the back 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 5: of those little skinny cottages. And having gone into the kitchen, 148 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 5: they didn't want to go up the hallway because that 149 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 5: would be sort of intrusive or rude. And they were 150 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 5: respectable country guys, a bit shy, and they hadn't walked 151 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 5: up the hallway, and had they walked up there, they 152 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 5: would have found their friends murdered. 153 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: We know Barry and Henry weren't the only ones to 154 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: visit Easy Street after the girls were murdered. Sue Bartlett 155 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: had also met a new suitor, recently named Ross Hammond. 156 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: Investigators said something was off about his story right from 157 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: the start of the investigation. How is it that he 158 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: climbed in through a bedroom window and missed not one, 159 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: but two women's bodies lying in the house just a 160 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: few steps away. Ross is unfortunately another key voice we 161 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: can't hear from anymore because he's no longer alive. But 162 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: in January nineteen seventy seven, he had only just started 163 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: dating Sue Barlet, and like Barry Woodard, he had also 164 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: visited the Sue's house during the period that they were 165 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: allegedly killed. According to police notes mentioned in court last year, 166 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Hammond told detective Douglas Carroll in seventy seven that he 167 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: climbed in through a bedroom window, which left a footprint 168 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: on Sue Bartlett's bedspread, and walked through the house. Hammond 169 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: said he walked through the hallway where Sue Bartlett's body 170 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: was found, but he didn't see anything because it was dark. 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: According to police notes from that time, Hammond's story quote 172 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: did not have a truthful ring to it. To detectives, 173 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: it sounded like Hammond quote appeared to be trying to 174 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: justify his movements, But Andrew Rule says it wasn't just 175 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: Susanne and Susan's associations that police were interested in. 176 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 5: You can see how easy it would have been for 177 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 5: the police to get very keen on any particular person, 178 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 5: including the guy that was next door in the house 179 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 5: next door Johnny Grant truth crime reporter knock about plug 180 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 5: and nothing against. Johnny grand I used to work at 181 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 5: the same time he did. He's still around somewhere, but 182 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 5: he was interesting to the police because he did knock 183 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 5: around with a lot of crooks as well as a 184 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 5: lot of police. Naturally, crime reporter it. 185 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: Was more than John Grant's rough and humble personality that 186 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: landed him on the radar of investigators. Not only did 187 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: his crime writing at the now defunct Truth newspaper mean 188 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: he mixed with all sorts of questionable characters, but the 189 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: two serious murders wouldn't be the first time John Grant 190 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: himself became tied to a major homicide probe. 191 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 5: It'd been at a flat in North Melbourne on the 192 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 5: same night that the girl lived in the flat, Julie 193 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 5: Garcia Salai, a Californian girl only a nineteen year old 194 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 5: girl who worked at the same newspaper office as Johnny Grant. 195 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 5: She went missing and was never seen again. Clearly Julie 196 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 5: was abducted and murdered not by John Grant mystad, but 197 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 5: the police were fascinated by that coincidence that he had 198 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 5: been at her place in nineteen seventy five and here 199 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 5: in the first month of nineteen seventy seven his next 200 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 5: door when this murder happens. 201 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: Nineteen year old Julianne Garcia Slay from California had been 202 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: working as a library reference clerk at what was then 203 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: called Southdown Press in Melbourne, CBD. That's how she met 204 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: John Grant and two of his so called associates. One 205 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: was a former boxer named Rhys Tommy Collins, the other 206 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: career criminal John Joseph Power, who was acquitted of murdering 207 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: a woman three years before meeting Julianne. The paper that 208 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: John covered, the crime beat for the Truth and the 209 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: Australian Newspapers, were both printed at South Down Press, and 210 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: the men came looking for articles in the archive about 211 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: soul Food because they said they were thinking of opening 212 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: up a restaurant. And so Julianne, who was still new 213 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: in Melbourne and looking for friends, invited the men over 214 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: to her place in North Melbourne to talk about the plan. 215 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: Later that night, that get together was the last time 216 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: anyone saw her alive. The men said Julianne left her 217 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: flat to make a phone call at about ten thirty pm, 218 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: only she never returned her not that. 219 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 4: He literally lived for fifty years not knowing what happened 220 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 4: to Julie, and she died last year still not knowing 221 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: what happened to Julie. And by the end of that time, 222 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: really she had an idea of what had happened to Julie, 223 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: and we don't need to go into detail about that now, 224 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 4: but all that really mattered to her by that point, 225 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 4: you know, five decades literally five decades later, all she 226 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 4: wanted to do before she died was to bring Julie 227 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: home so that she could bury her, and she didn't 228 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 4: get a chance to do that. Julie's body still has 229 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 4: never been found, So I think that gives us all 230 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 4: some idea of just how traumatic, how. 231 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 5: You know? 232 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 4: I mean, it's almost beyond words, isn't it. 233 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: Just living with that. 234 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 1: Helen Thomas has spent years investigating Julie's case too, and 235 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: it's haunting similarities to the Suze murders. 236 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 4: What a terrible thing to have to deal with again 237 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 4: every day. There would not be a day or a 238 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 4: night where you wouldn't thinking about what had happened. In 239 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 4: this case, where was Julie? Where is Julie's body? And 240 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 4: in the case of the two sues, why did this happen? 241 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: Why did you know? Why did my friend? Why did 242 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: my sister? Why did my daughter have to die like this? 243 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: And the questionable history of John Joseph Power and John 244 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: Grant's close association with him is what placed them in 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: the frame. Not only for Julianne's suspected murder, but as 246 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Susanne and Susan's potential killers, he's. 247 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 5: Next door when this murder happens. But I know for 248 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 5: a fact that the homicide squad took him into Russell 249 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 5: Strait and questioned him very vigorously for quite a long time. 250 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 5: And I know that because the head of the squad 251 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 5: told me that himself many years later, and he said 252 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 5: there's no way he had anything to do with it, 253 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 5: because he would have told us something which I think 254 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 5: tells you her vigorously he was questioned. In those far off, rugged. 255 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: Days, hardly anyone knew John's knock about persona better than 256 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: the Sue's next door neighbor and John's colleague at the Truth, 257 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: Alona Stevens. This is what she told a court right 258 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: before Perry Korunblus was committed to stand trial for the 259 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: Sue's murders. 260 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: I knew he was considered involved in another matter. 261 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: Alona had known John for about eighteen months before the murders, 262 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: and she knew him to be foul mouthed after having 263 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: a few drinks, and as someone who had no problem with. 264 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 5: Walking up to a girl. He did not know and 265 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 5: asking her for a fook. 266 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 4: It was in keeping with most of the men I. 267 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: Knew Despite all that the pair were friends, and Alona 268 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: had invited John to sleep at her place on the 269 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: night of the tenth because he was having some trouble 270 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: at his own place with his father. According to Janet Powell, 271 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: she Alona and John were listening to records late into 272 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: the night and into the early hours of Tuesday morning 273 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: before they all went to bed, with John sleeping on 274 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: their couch. John was already up and ready for work 275 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: by the time Aloner woke up the next morning, and 276 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: the pair left for their shift at the paper together 277 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: just before eight o'clock. It was this arrangement that placed 278 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: the colorful police reporter near a major crime scene for 279 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: the second time in as many years, when a Loner 280 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: and Janet discovered the two sues' bodies two days later. 281 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: While the homicide squad was chasing down the woodyards Ross 282 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Hammond and John Grant as potential leads, a young constable 283 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: Ron Iddles was out on patrol in Collingwood. He's conducting 284 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: random vehicle checks, a regular part of the beat. When 285 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: he pulls over a teenage boy driving a nineteen sixty 286 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: eight holdin HK. The teen readily offers up his name 287 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: and date of birth when Constable Idles asks him to 288 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: Perry Crumblus seventeen born July fourth, nineteen fifty nine, and 289 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: forty eight years later, as Ron and Perry sit facing 290 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: one another in a Melbourne courtroom, Ron details, according to him, 291 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: exactly how that interaction unfolded. 292 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 5: It was a routine check of a vehicle. 293 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: It was a random check that we routinely did. 294 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: We're piecing together this recollection of Ron's from what he 295 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: told the court at Perry Korumblus's committal and with the 296 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: help of Andrew Ruhle, so we can bring you more 297 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: about that encounter. 298 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 5: Ron Needles pulls up this kid in the car. Ron 299 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 5: knows that he's a knock about kid around town, and 300 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 5: he said, okay, buddy, can you open the boot the 301 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 5: standard procedures a boot. There in the boot is a knife, 302 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 5: a nice new sheath knife, you know, leather sheath. 303 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: With Susan and Suzanne's murders fresh in his mind, Ron 304 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: asked the teenage Perry where he got his hands on 305 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: the weapon. At this point, you may remember in episode 306 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: one where I mentioned the Victoria Park train station. That's 307 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: where Perry told Ron he had found the knife lying 308 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: on the trucks. 309 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 5: And said, what's that and he said, oh I found that? 310 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, where? Well? I found it when I walked 311 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 5: over the railway tracks below the footpath over there near 312 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 5: Victoria Park, the footy ground the album, and I saw 313 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 5: it when I was walking across, lying on the tracks 314 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 5: and went down and got it, which was quite a 315 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 5: feasible story. I mean, had I been a seventeen year 316 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 5: old getting collingwood and I saw a new sheath knife 317 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 5: on the tracks, I would have gone down and got it. 318 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 5: So why wouldn't he? It made enough sense. But Ron 319 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 5: eddles conscientious young copper. He removed took the knife and 320 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 5: he handed it over to real detectives at that stage, 321 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 5: and they tested it and they looked at it and 322 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 5: they pulled it out and it's nice and new, but 323 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 5: it had a little trace of blood inside the sheath. 324 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 5: And they tested the blood. In those days, no DNA, 325 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 5: we're talking the seventies, very primitive. The blood was one 326 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 5: of the common types, a positive or whatever, and that 327 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 5: match about half the population or whatever. And it did 328 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 5: match one of the murdered girls. That is not very 329 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 5: much a proof of anything. Could be anybody, So Karumblus's 330 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 5: name goes Is it just on a long list of 331 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 5: people who have been spoken. 332 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: To Ron's chance meeting with Perry wouldn't be the teenager's 333 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: only dealings with police about the murders. On January nineteen, 334 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: Perry turns up at the homicide squad office with a 335 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: friend to tell officers where he was on the night 336 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: Susan and Susan were killed at the friend's house on 337 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: Keel Street in Collingwood. It's a few hundred meters from 338 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: the crime scene at one four seven Easy Street. While 339 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Ron picks the knife up from Perry's car and hands 340 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: it in for forensic testing, homicide detectives are canvassing everyone 341 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: connected to their list of persons of interest, and that 342 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: list is only getting longer and longer. Detectives also speak 343 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: with another man who lives in Abbersford about a different 344 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: knife that was looked at as the potential murder weapon. 345 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: Their following up reports that he owned a knife similar 346 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: to the one police believed the killer used in the murders, 347 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: with potential leads pulling police in several different directions their 348 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: focus on the two sues. Social lives intensified. Two friends 349 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: in the early twenties, sort of single renting a place 350 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: together close to town, not an unusual setup for young 351 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: women like myself in twenty twenty six, but pouring over 352 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: how seventies newspaper articles describe the sues their male friends 353 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: and suitors, it's a bit of a sobering reminder that 354 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: women who were officially unattached, dating casually and making it 355 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: on their own weren't always viewed in the most positive light. 356 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: In fact, the late author Tom Pryor, who spent most 357 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: of his career as a police reporter at the Sun 358 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: News Pictorial, the precursor to our newspaper, The Herald's son, 359 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: wrote this in his nineteen ninety six book about the Murders. 360 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: They trusted men too. 361 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 3: Many men had had experience of Suzanne Armstrong, but few 362 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: had anything to say against her. 363 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: Journalists and author Helen Thomas. 364 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 4: You know that phrase of they knew a lot of men. 365 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 4: I mean, well, I don't even now you just think, well, 366 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 4: what does that actually mean? How many men did they know? 367 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 4: And I mean how many men were young women allowed 368 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 4: to know? Back in nineteen seventy seven. It's kind of 369 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 4: crazy when you look back, isn't it. 370 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy seven, Suzanne Armstrong's official occupation was printed 371 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: in the paper as quote an unmarried mother. 372 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 3: Because there was two women and there were a number 373 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: of men that were sort of being looked at as 374 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: potent or suspects or people of interest in this case, 375 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: there were some nasty rumors. 376 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: You might remember reporter Anthony Dowsley detailing these types of 377 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: rumors and attitudes that surrounded Susan and Suzanne early on, 378 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: and from my talks with people at the center of 379 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: this case, those rumors Anthony Dowsley mentioned painted them as 380 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: women who kept undesirable company with men, as if that 381 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: would have somehow contributed to their own demise. As Halen 382 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: Thomas says, everyone who knew the girls maintained those rumors 383 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: weren't true. In fact, it was the total opposite. 384 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 4: All the people that know Suzanne say, what a fantastic 385 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 4: mum she was, what a diligent mother she was, and 386 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: you know what a terrific friend she had in Susan, 387 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: who was also you know, helping share the load to 388 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 4: an extent because she was sharing the house with Suzanne 389 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 4: and you know, all the neighbors that I've spoken to 390 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 4: and there are still a numberwell, there's at least a 391 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 4: couple of people who lived there at the time who 392 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: are in this street in easy history. They all just 393 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 4: speak about the well they call them the girls, you know. 394 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 4: And how you know Susanna had wave as she'd sort 395 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: of zoomed down the street on a bike with little 396 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 4: Greg in the back, get in one of those little 397 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 4: back seats. 398 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, police did have to probe everybody the sus 399 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: knew and in addition to Barry and Henry Woodard and 400 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: Ross Hammond, they also worked out Susanne Armstrong's connection with 401 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: a late motor racing legend. Crime reporter Anthony Dowsley. 402 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: There was something that came across my desk in the 403 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: mid twenty tens from memory about a very famous Australian 404 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: racing driver who had known the two victims in this crime, 405 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: and his name Peter Brock. 406 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 5: Peter Brock, the third place drive and the mobile Commodore comes. 407 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 3: Into the pits, and Peter Brock was not alive anymore. 408 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 3: He died in a racing car accident many years earlier. 409 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: But the interesting bit that happened was that I'd been 410 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: told that his DNA was going to be tested against 411 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: the crime scene evidence to see if he was a 412 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 3: potential suspect. So he was a person of interest to 413 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: the cold case investigators who were trying to eliminate suspects 414 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: or people of interest from this case. And of course 415 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 3: they were all men, I believe, and there was a 416 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: fairly large group of people that they were trying to 417 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 3: test against for years as they tried to solve this murder. 418 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: But Brock's connection to the case flew under the radar 419 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: for decades, in fact, right up until there had already 420 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: been an arrest of Perry crumblus in Rome. 421 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes as journals we have to make calls on what's 422 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 3: in the public interest and what is really fair, And 423 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 3: it was decided not just by me, but by others 424 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: in news organizations that came across this as well, that 425 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 3: it would be unfair to named Peter Brock is a 426 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: potential suspect in a really obviously vicious crime. So his 427 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 3: name remained out of the media for almost a decade 428 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 3: until the arrest came. 429 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: A man named Peter Samsonidas and a former traffic cop 430 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: called Ian Lloyd, who was also a roof plumber, were 431 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: both added to the list of what police believed were 432 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: their strongest suspects. During Perry's committal, former detective Peter Hiscock 433 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: told the court that it was well known mister Lloyd 434 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: would proposition women to perform sexual favors for him in 435 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: exchange for avoiding traffic fines. Gladys Coventry, an elderly neighbor 436 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: of the girls, was adamant she saw a man at 437 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: the house later on the night they were murdered. Much 438 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: has been made of her potential eyewitness accounting court in 439 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: more recent times, but back then the police didn't seem 440 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: to want a whole lot to do with her. According 441 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: to one former homicide detective, at Perry's committal, the elderly 442 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: woman told him that she'd seen, how he put it, quote, 443 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: the bigger of the two sitting opposite a man while 444 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: she had something to drink. She told detectives she thought 445 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: she saw this between two am and two point fifteen 446 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: on the night of the murders, and she also told 447 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: police she'd often hear Greek music playing in the girl's home, 448 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: whether it was because of the contents of her statement, 449 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: perhaps her age, or even because she was a woman. 450 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: Helen Thomas says that detectives initially dismissed Missus Carventry's count. 451 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 4: Missus Coventry, again, as I understand it, had seen a 452 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 4: man in the house the night the women are believed 453 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 4: to have been killed, and when their bodies were found, 454 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 4: you know, several days later, tried to tell police that 455 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: she had something that, you know, of some interest that 456 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 4: they might like to be you know, talking to her about. 457 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 4: And again, as I understand it, they just basically dismissed 458 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 4: her at that point. Now several days later, say a 459 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 4: week later, they went back to talk to her because 460 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 4: they realized that maybe she was, in fact the only 461 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 4: witness who might have seen someone involved in this you know, 462 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 4: double homicide. Now, whoever she saw, he's never been identified. 463 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: Years later, Peter Sellers, who lived in one three nine 464 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: Easy Street and was twenty one years old at the 465 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: time of the murders, told Helen Thomas that he'd heard 466 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: some sounds he'd never forgotten, one which sounded to him 467 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: like a front door closing and then two card doors 468 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: slamming before a car took off down the street, but 469 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: he never got the chance to share that with investigators. 470 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 4: Peter told his parents, particularly his mum, what he'd seen 471 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 4: and heard, because they were around holders, and when they 472 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 4: came back, he told them so. She told one of 473 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 4: the young police officers or younger technics who came to 474 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: the door, and he wrote down Peter's name, but he 475 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 4: never came back to interviewing. 476 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: But the wider the pool of potential suspects became, the 477 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: more the investigation seemed to stall. Even the inquest into 478 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: the girl's deaths in July nineteen seventy seven, seven months 479 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: after they were murdered, couldn't point to the person responsible. 480 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 5: As it turns out, none of those were good suspects. 481 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 5: That's not the police's fault. The police didn't really get 482 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 5: any way of reducing the numbers on their list until 483 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 5: the early two thousands, when early DNA was applied to it. 484 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: Coroner Harry Pasco did take statements from Susan Bartlett's brother Martin, 485 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: from homicide detectives Barry and Henry, and forensic specialists, and 486 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: we've used parts of that material to piece together some 487 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: of what you've heard in this series so far. The 488 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: inquest findings even mentioned that Perry Krumblus had found a knife. 489 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: Even with all those names, the potential murder weapons, intriguing 490 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: ties to other crimes, and an official inquiry, the investigation 491 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: somehow languished. The answers to all those crucial questions evaded 492 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: the seu's families and investigators for years. 493 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 5: I was in disbelief. I thought, God, it's crazy, you know, 494 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 5: but you know, like there's still a lot of questions 495 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 5: in their. 496 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 6: Evidence for us. I think the eldest case is one 497 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 6: that's quite I say, infamous, famous neck Kelly. So you know, 498 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 6: those bones were over one hundred years old and we 499 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 6: were able to recover mitochondrial DNA. 500 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: This show is hosted, researched, and written by me Olivia Jenkins. 501 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: It was produced, edited and written by John ty Burton. 502 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: Our video producer is Daniel Coates. Our graphic designers are 503 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: Kirko Dwyer and Sean Lee. Jordie Atkinson is our executive producer. 504 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: You can find all of our coverage of this case 505 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: at Huntingjustice dot com dot au. You can also find 506 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: every article, video and episode of this series, as well 507 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: as the crime stories Melbourne cares about most by joining 508 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: our Facebook group Harold's sun Crime and Courts. If you 509 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: have questions, feedback or something you think we should know, 510 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: get in touch with us anytime. Our email address is 511 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: Harold'suncrime at news dot com dot au, or you can 512 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: contact me securely. Those details are in the show notes