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Speaker 1: Apoge Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. In two thousand and three, when I was

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Speaker 2: covering Melbourne's Gangland War, I met the former Catholic chaplain

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Speaker 2: of Penridge Prison in Melbourne, Father Peter Norden. For more

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Speaker 2: than forty years, Father Peter Norden has worked in a

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Speaker 2: variety of roles within the Australian criminal justice system. At

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Speaker 2: the time, he was burying many of the old school

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Speaker 2: crooks who were gunned down in that bloody conflict. Between

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight and twenty ten, thirty six Underworld figures

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Speaker 2: were murdered in the so called Melbourne Gangland killings. He

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Speaker 2: moved easily in the ranks of those heavy criminals and

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Speaker 2: their families.

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Speaker 3: This was because he.

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Speaker 2: Built up trust in the underworld over decades behind those

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Speaker 2: bluestone walls of Penridge. He wasn't there to convert them

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Speaker 2: or judge them for their crimes, but to be a

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Speaker 2: confidant and source of comfort, particularly to the most vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: while also being a voice for reform. Norden was senior

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Speaker 2: chaplain at Pentridge and has written extensively on prison reform

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Speaker 2: and human rights. In two thousand and eight, he left

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Speaker 2: the priesthood, but has continued to advocate on behalf of

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Speaker 2: prison inmates across Australia. Father Peter Nordon continues to call

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Speaker 2: for sweeping reform of the criminal justice system. I recently

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Speaker 2: caught up with Peter for this chat. How did you

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Speaker 2: become the prison chaplain at patrick.

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Speaker 3: Well? I started a training for the priesthood as at a

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Speaker 3: very young age, just turned eighteen, and I joined a

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Speaker 3: group called the Jesuits, which is part of the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 3: and they had a seminary out at Watsonia later became

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Speaker 3: the Prison Officers Training College. But when I was there,

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Speaker 3: I came across a young fellow called Gary whose fiftieth

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Speaker 3: wedding nun of her I went to recently, and he'd

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Speaker 3: stolen a car and I asked the person in charge

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Speaker 3: of our training could go and visit him at a

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Speaker 3: place called Tarana in Parkwell. The boy was there on

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Speaker 3: he got six months for car theft or something, so

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Speaker 3: that was how I initially made contact. I was only

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Speaker 3: eighteen and I was in my first year of training

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Speaker 3: and it was a fairly isolated place. You weren't allowed

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Speaker 3: to go out visiting people much, but I was allowed

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Speaker 3: to do that. And then that summer, or was it

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Speaker 3: the next summer, I did a four week placement with

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Speaker 3: the chaplain who was there, who was a wonderful guy

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Speaker 3: called Kevin Mogg should have been archbishop instead of George

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Speaker 3: Pell would have made a much better job of.

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Speaker 1: It, and that's on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Anyhow, So I started some work there and then as

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Speaker 3: a training Jesuit, normally you'd have a break. It's a

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Speaker 3: fifteen year training period, longer than a brain surgeon, and

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Speaker 3: halfway through you'd do kind of an internship and normally

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Speaker 3: you'd go and teach him one of these prestigious Jesuit schools. Well,

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Speaker 3: i'd done social work at Melbourne UNI and the schools

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Speaker 3: weren't quite very creative about how they could use a

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Speaker 3: trainee Jesuit as a social worker in a school, little

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Speaker 3: did they know. So instead I came up with this

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Speaker 3: proposal to open a halfway house for young men at

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Speaker 3: that time, later men and women seventeen to twenty one

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Speaker 3: year olds who were repeat offenders, and we set that

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Speaker 3: up in Power Street, Hawthorne, and that became late the

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Speaker 3: Brosenham Center, which then grew into Jesuit Social services. But

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Speaker 3: that was the beginning. It was meeting a young fellow

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Speaker 3: who had stolen a car, who lived near Bungo Street

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Speaker 3: in Watsonia, and I started visiting him and then brothers

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Speaker 3: didn't take much notice because he had a lot of

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Speaker 3: people come in and sniff around the prison. But after

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Speaker 3: a few years, when I was running this halfway house,

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Speaker 3: we had a murder and the murder was the mother

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Speaker 3: of Robin Cooper, who at that time late he was

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Speaker 3: a qure counselor and an old Saverian. He and his

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Speaker 3: brother were aligned at the Liberal Party and he became

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Speaker 3: a member of Parliament and if Jeff if Kennet had

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Speaker 3: have won his last election, Robin Cooper would have been

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Speaker 3: the Minister for Prisons and Police. But it was a

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Speaker 3: shocking tragedy which I don't want to discuss in detail here.

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Speaker 3: But after that happened, Broz sort of took a bit

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Speaker 3: of notice because he saw me on the Willasey program

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Speaker 3: wellasy at seven, and he thought I had a bit

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Speaker 3: of dash, I think, and decided that I might be

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Speaker 3: someone who could come and work with him as he

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Speaker 3: moved towards retirement.

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Speaker 2: Several years later, Father Broslin is one of the great

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Speaker 2: figures of Victorian society.

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Speaker 1: He needs it with the background. Who was he? What

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Speaker 1: was his mission?

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Speaker 3: Well, he was a diocesan priest working for the bishop.

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Speaker 3: He'd been a chaplain down at the orphanages in geelongs

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Speaker 3: and St Augustus. He later worked at the inner city

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Speaker 3: parish of Saint Joseph in Collingwood and Saint John's in

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Speaker 3: East Melbourne, and he was asked to become the first

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Speaker 3: full time Catholic chaplain of Pentridge in nineteen fifty six

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Speaker 3: and he stayed there for thirty years. He was there,

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Speaker 3: of course from fifty six. He was there during the

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Speaker 3: Ronald Ryan trial and hanging and he was one of

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Speaker 3: the key people along with Barry Jones and Brian Dixon,

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Speaker 3: the Liberal member of Parliament who opposed the execution against

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Speaker 3: Henry Bolty. Anyhow, Ryan was eventually executed, Broslon and the

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Speaker 3: chaplain had to stand at the bottom of the gallows

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Speaker 3: and before my last rites. But he became probably the

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Speaker 3: best known priests in Australia before Bob Maguire. Father Bob

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Speaker 3: came along and he was the first Catholic priest in

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Speaker 3: Australia to get a state funeral, which happened perhaps twenty

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Speaker 3: years ago. In our twenty five years ago, I.

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Speaker 2: Remember interviewing Father Brosnan when Baldy died, and his anger

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Speaker 2: towards Baldy had never did Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think he might have said what Thursday, bastard, but

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Speaker 1: I can't remember.

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Speaker 3: He wouldn't have said done.

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Speaker 1: Is that something in those terms?

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Speaker 3: Someone said to him, what are you going to do

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Speaker 3: when you retire, Father Broston? He said, oh, I think

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Speaker 3: there's a nice quiet parish in Western Victor Victory and

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Speaker 3: it was where Baldi had his farm, and he said,

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Speaker 3: I thought I might just become a nice quiet parish

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Speaker 3: priest over in Western District. And of course it was

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Speaker 3: Baldy's place, and the last thing Baldi won it was

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Speaker 3: for Brosman to be appointed the local priests there. When

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Speaker 3: bros retired at the age of seventy five.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people would be unclear about

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Speaker 2: what a chaplain actually does in the prison.

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Speaker 1: What is the role?

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Speaker 3: Well, when I was working as a chaplain, sometimes you'd

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Speaker 3: have to speak to year twelves at some school or

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Speaker 3: rather and they'd say, father Peter did it. Prisoners talked

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Speaker 3: to you much. I'd have to try to explain to

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Speaker 3: them what actually the dynamic was because in the prison

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Speaker 3: no one trusted each other. The crims didn't trust the screws,

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Speaker 3: and the crims after the drugs hit the place, at least,

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Speaker 3: didn't trust each other. Previously, there were settled networks that

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Speaker 3: were predictable and added a degree of stability to the

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Speaker 3: prison environment. But once the serious drugs hit the prison,

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Speaker 3: the prisoners didn't even trust each other. So the chaplain

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Speaker 3: was about the only person in the place you could trust.

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Speaker 3: My approach there was an Anglican, a Salvony, an arting church,

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Speaker 3: and my approach was I was there for the crims

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Speaker 3: and other chaplains, so we're here for everyone. They're all

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Speaker 3: God's children. And I'm saying the staff live in homes,

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Speaker 3: they've got access to chaplains. It's an adversary situation. It's

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Speaker 3: the green uniforms versus the blue, and I'm here for

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Speaker 3: the people who are in the green. Of course I'll

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Speaker 3: be polite and respectful to the staff, otherwise you get

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Speaker 3: no cooperation at all. But my priority is for the

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Speaker 3: people in green and not for the gangsters. I didn't

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Speaker 3: say this publicly, But I was there for the people

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Speaker 3: who were the most vulnerable in the prison, and that

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Speaker 3: meant the young, the disabled, those with mental illness. They

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Speaker 3: were very vulnerable in the prison. But to be effective

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Speaker 3: with them, you had to make it with the top

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Speaker 3: tier of the prison pecking order. So it meant you

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Speaker 3: had to engage the gangsters to get ability and profile

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Speaker 3: and status. I didn't want it for its own sake,

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Speaker 3: so that I could move more easily within the prison

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Speaker 3: and engage those who are the greatest need and most vulnerable.

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Speaker 2: And who were the leading gangsters. And this is like

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, I believe.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it right? Ah? Yes, but I don't want to

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Speaker 3: be highlighting names. We can talk about that as much

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Speaker 3: as I did. I mean, probably most of them. I

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Speaker 3: used to say, you know, father Peter, he's running with

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Speaker 3: this mobel, he's running with the Richmond Moby, he's running

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Speaker 3: with the Carlton crew, or he's running with the crew

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Speaker 3: of the Western Soburbs. I wasn't with anyone, so but

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Speaker 3: you had to kind of get engaged with them in

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Speaker 3: order to have credibility. I suppose it's a street credibility,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I come from a middle class background,

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Speaker 3: although you know our family never owned its own home,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. But I knew I had to learn the lingo.

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Speaker 3: You learn how to walk, you learn how to talk

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Speaker 3: in the prison in such a way that you're credible.

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Speaker 3: Not some tough from outside the crims would say, father,

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Speaker 3: But you know you come in here at eight in

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Speaker 3: the morning, you leave it four o'clock at night. You

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Speaker 3: don't really know what prison it's like. You know we

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Speaker 3: have to live here, and I say, I know that,

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Speaker 3: but I am You know, I've been doing this for

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Speaker 3: quite a long period of time now, on and off

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Speaker 3: in different roles, about twenty years. But it's true. If

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Speaker 3: you don't live in the prison, you don't understand the

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Speaker 3: insecurities of being a convicted or even a reminded person.

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Speaker 3: It's not the same.

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Speaker 2: Seeing you again after quite a few years, I suddenly

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Speaker 2: recall your motive, active listening, the empathetic listening, the way

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Speaker 2: you engage with your eyes and things. I'd amaze that

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Speaker 2: would have been critical back then. Yes, we would have

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Speaker 2: learned those skills.

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Speaker 3: In there. You learn, but you learn not to be

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Speaker 3: too confronting, like with a seventeen to eighteen year old

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Speaker 3: who comes into the prison shit scared. You don't want

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Speaker 3: to be doing too much eyeballing because it's threatening, and

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Speaker 3: you don't ask too many questions. You talk a little

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Speaker 3: bit and know that he or she's assessing you from

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Speaker 3: those first couple of minutes. It's a bit like I

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Speaker 3: do weddings. You know, if you say something stupid in

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Speaker 3: the first minute or two, you've lost the whole gathering.

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Speaker 3: So it's really important, say, in doing a wedding, that

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Speaker 3: I have the couple, like greet them and say a

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Speaker 3: few little nice words, and I tell the couple I said,

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Speaker 3: everyone's looking at me wondering who this guy is and

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Speaker 3: is he going to make a mess of it or not?

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Speaker 3: And within twenty seconds thirty seconds, if you look friendly

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Speaker 3: and you're smiling and happy, you've won half of them

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Speaker 3: already within a minute. You've got to.

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Speaker 1: Judge the room and how you approach it.

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Speaker 2: But I think that I guess my point is that

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Speaker 2: you would get a quick read of the person you're

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Speaker 2: dealing with, how much familiarity, what level of spirituality, you

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Speaker 2: could engage with the sorts of things and try to

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Speaker 2: find their need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it wasn't about religion. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's about engagement first, and religious needs came two or

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Speaker 3: three or four steps down the line. So I was

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Speaker 3: there as a religious chaplain, but I was there for

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Speaker 3: the whole person. You know everything about that person. So

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Speaker 3: in the prison I would be down go to education.

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Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time in remand, but I

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Speaker 3: go to industries. If there was a football game on

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Speaker 3: or an athletic carnival, I'd be there. So you're involved

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Speaker 3: in the whole world of the prison. And that's the

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Speaker 3: same as what used to happen at least as a priest.

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Speaker 3: That the priest wasn't there just at the weddings and

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Speaker 3: funerals and masses, but he or sheena would be visiting homes,

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Speaker 3: would be at the shopping center, be at the local football.

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Speaker 3: It was a total involvement. So for these young people

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Speaker 3: who said did they talk to you much, you didn't

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Speaker 3: have any understanding of what it would be like. And

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Speaker 3: in fact, if you played the game right, you were

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Speaker 3: the most sought after people in the prison, And particularly

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Speaker 3: if you showed yourself to be courageous, you know, by

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Speaker 3: being prepared to name injustice when it occurred, and access

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Speaker 3: to the media. You then became in some ways the

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Speaker 3: most powerful person in the institution because you had access

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Speaker 3: to the media no one else did, and he had

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Speaker 3: access to the not just the local prison officer. If

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Speaker 3: they said I'm not happy you were doing that, and

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Speaker 3: I'd say, we'll speak to the governor, or speak to

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Speaker 3: the Director of Prisons, or speak to the minister. But

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Speaker 3: in fact I'm accountable to a higher authority, and I

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Speaker 3: don't mean the archbishop. So you take the wind out

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Speaker 3: of their sales when they thought they were going to

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Speaker 3: sit on you for going over time at a service

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Speaker 3: for five minutes or something like that. You know, petty

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Speaker 3: things they'd pick you up for. But access to the media.

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Speaker 3: The very first day that I was appointed, Tom Pryor

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Speaker 3: was a famous Herald's Son crime reporter and he was

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Speaker 3: a great mate. He wrote the book On a Knock

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Speaker 3: about Priest John Brosnan. He interviewed me at the front

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Speaker 3: of the prison with a photographer and he said, Farlo Peter,

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Speaker 3: what do you think of the prison system? And I thought,

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Speaker 3: here's the chance. First day, Well, it's an old system

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Speaker 3: built on what wasn't working in England for the last

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Speaker 3: two or three hundred years and here we are still

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Speaker 3: replicating the model. It's more school of crime than doing

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Speaker 3: anything other than warehousing people at great expense to the community.

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Speaker 3: Well bang, That gets on page three of the Herald's son.

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Speaker 3: So from the very first day, I established my license,

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Speaker 3: my freedom, my capacity to actually have freedom of speech,

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Speaker 3: even though officially I was a public servant and shouldn't

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Speaker 3: have been talking.

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Speaker 2: And you were there in the wake of the Jenkinson Inquiry,

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Speaker 2: which had been purported to look at violence and treatment

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Speaker 2: of prisoners and so forth, and it was widely regarded

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Speaker 2: by prisoners as a whitewash. A lot of these practices continued.

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Speaker 2: It was a grim place, Gothic old battle castle.

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Speaker 1: There in Coburg. What were your impressions of it back

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Speaker 1: then and how brutal was it.

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Speaker 3: I've been rereading the evidence brought before Jenkinson over the

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Speaker 3: last six months and some of his conclusions, but it

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Speaker 3: was a big disappointment. He was a Catholic judge. I

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Speaker 3: think his son for a while joined the Jesuits tree

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Speaker 3: or two. But I was very disappointed that it went nowhere.

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Speaker 3: It's very hard to have independent witnesses, but it went

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Speaker 3: for several months, but it's a closed institution. I used

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Speaker 3: to have a saying that the prison walls serve a

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Speaker 3: dual purpose. They stopped prisoners for escaping, but I also

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Speaker 3: keep the community outside and ignorant of what goes on

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Speaker 3: behind those walls. So you did have visiting magistrates, and

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Speaker 3: you had a visiting doctor. But in many ways those

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Speaker 3: people who were visiting magistrates and even the resident doctor

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Speaker 3: could be very easily compromised by going along with a

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Speaker 3: system of oppression and rather than speaking as a proper professional.

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Speaker 3: If you're a visiting magistrate, individuals should have freedom of

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Speaker 3: speech without having three or four prison officers there prepare

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Speaker 3: you and tell you that this blokes are no hope,

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Speaker 3: and he wouldn't know what he was talking about. And

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Speaker 3: the same with the doctors. There was a guy there once.

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Speaker 3: His arm was just about falling off. He had a

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Speaker 3: bad bone injury in his shoulder up her arm and

288
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Speaker 3: you could tell it was just fading away. And I

289
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Speaker 3: went to the local governor and directed nothing happen. He'd

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Speaker 3: been waiting for twelve months to go to Saint Vincent's.

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Speaker 3: So I rang up Brendan Dooley, who was the top

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Speaker 3: bone specialist in Australia doctor Brendan Dooley, and Brendan Dooley

293
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Speaker 3: got them to ring the prison and he was in

294
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Speaker 3: Saint Vincent's Hospital for a surgery to his arm within

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours. Now, this guy had been waiting for

296
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Speaker 3: a year and literally his arm was falling off, it

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Speaker 3: was fading away. But instead within twenty four hours, forty

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Speaker 3: eight hours, he was in Saint Vincent's and he had

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Speaker 3: a reconstruction on his arm that saved his arm. That's

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Speaker 3: an example. I don't mean that's a big note, but

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Speaker 3: that's what an ombudsman, or what a visiting magistrate or

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Speaker 3: a visiting doctor should be doing.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, the society was steeped in the

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Speaker 1: idea that jails should be.

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Speaker 2: Punishing and brutal, and that was the whole Bentham approach

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Speaker 2: to incarceration. If you could make it hard, make it harder,

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Speaker 2: if you could make the food poor, make it poorer.

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Speaker 2: These people were here to be punished. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: the community was quite happy to go.

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Speaker 1: Along with all this. So you were a voice in

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Speaker 1: the wilderness in a way. People like you.

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Speaker 3: Well, that was the old Christian moral. You know that

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Speaker 3: you've made a bad decision, and you'd be punished for it,

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Speaker 3: as if people were all living off a level playing field.

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Speaker 3: But most people who commit serious crime, except for the

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Speaker 3: five or ten percent of professional crooks, they don't think

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Speaker 3: about their actions. They're either influenced by drugs or alcohol,

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Speaker 3: or by some form of mental illness, who've got very

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Speaker 3: low front lobal development if they're a teenager, they don't

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Speaker 3: think of the consequences. And so most murders that are committed,

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Speaker 3: half of which are domestic, are committed without thought, without planning.

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Speaker 3: I mean some of them, as we've seen recently with

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Speaker 3: mushroom killings and so on, allegedly were very carefully planned.

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Speaker 3: But most serious crimes is not thought about. And so

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Speaker 3: that idea that to treat people badly so that they

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Speaker 3: will repent and change the way of their lives. When

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Speaker 3: the key issues, particularly today is access to stable housing,

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Speaker 3: access to legitimate employment, and health services. So now the

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Speaker 3: prisons are crowded, with almost half the prison population of

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Speaker 3: people with a significant disability. It's more than five times

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Speaker 3: the rate of the general community. So these people, maybe

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Speaker 3: some might have committed serious crimes, but most wouldn't, so

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Speaker 3: they're not given a prison sentence to start with, they're

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Speaker 3: given it what's called a community based order, but because

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Speaker 3: they've got a disability, whether it intellectual or mental health

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00:17:51,961 --> 00:17:55,681
Speaker 3: or whatever, they breach that order. And so the magistrate

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Speaker 3: or possibly the judge who gave them a community based

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Speaker 3: order never intended them to go to the prison maximum

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Speaker 3: security prison, but more than half of them breached. People

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Speaker 3: with disability breach those community alternatives and they end up

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Speaker 3: in the neck for a crime that didn't deserve a

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Speaker 3: prison sentence. So there's been this huge net widening now

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Speaker 3: that we're having all this remand bail reforms. When I

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Speaker 3: was working in the prison, twenty five to thirty percent

345
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Speaker 3: of the prison population were on remand and they were

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Speaker 3: people mostly who committed serious crimes. Now it's fifty percent

347
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Speaker 3: across Australia people of the whole prison population. Fifty percent

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Speaker 3: of people charged but are not given bail because if

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Speaker 3: they've committed a very very serious crime, everyone understands the reason.

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Speaker 3: But if that person's homeless or if they've got a

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Speaker 3: significant disability, the police are going to oppose that bail

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Speaker 3: because there's no way that person's going to turn up

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Speaker 3: in court otherwise. So now you've got fifty to fifty

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Speaker 3: people on remand. Now we're not talking about the serious offends.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about those who have got disability and they're

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Speaker 3: filling up fifty percent of our prison population. It's the

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Speaker 3: biggest challenge that this state government has at the moment.

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Speaker 3: They've got empty prisons because they've got no staff to

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Speaker 3: employ people. There's about two thousand empty cells in the

360
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Speaker 3: Victoria at the moment, but there's no one to actually

361
00:19:15,921 --> 00:19:18,881
Speaker 3: staff the prison. Who've got to train the people and

362
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Speaker 3: that's the biggest concern. I had a meeting with the

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Speaker 3: Secretary of the department only two weeks ago, Apartment of Justice,

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Speaker 3: and that's her biggest challenge at the moment. What are

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Speaker 3: we going to do with all these people who are

366
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Speaker 3: going to end up on remand and it's just going

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Speaker 3: to overflow.

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Speaker 1: In your era, you saw this failed experiment.

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Speaker 2: Well, Age Division was long there on before you got there,

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Speaker 2: and you had Jaikie Jock I was.

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Speaker 3: In Haste Division two days a week.

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Speaker 2: You were, and what we saw from h Division was

373
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Speaker 2: people going there for disciplinary offenses while they're in jail

374
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Speaker 2: for often minor pup offenses. And after the Age Division experience,

375
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Speaker 2: they came out as very resentful.

376
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Speaker 1: Very nasty, and huge problems to the community.

377
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Speaker 2: People like Stanley Taylor, mister Adel Flannery, people like that,

378
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Speaker 2: What did you see in the way that they were

379
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Speaker 2: treated that was turning a bicycle thief into a murderer.

380
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Speaker 3: That was Brosnan's quote. He actually said that publicly many times,

381
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Speaker 3: that he saw the brutality of H Division turned by

382
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Speaker 3: thieves into murderers and rapists.

383
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Speaker 1: I'm glad to Robertson quite.

384
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Speaker 3: Eminence, but look, it still happened. When I used to

385
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Speaker 3: go to H Division every Wednesday morning, and that was predictable.

386
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Speaker 3: The prison officers knew that I was going to arrive,

387
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Speaker 3: but I also when another time during the week, and

388
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Speaker 3: I never told them when I was coming, so it

389
00:20:42,281 --> 00:20:45,801
Speaker 3: was unpredictable. When I'd rock up as a chaplain, you know,

390
00:20:46,521 --> 00:20:48,880
Speaker 3: other crims from over in the remard. But so go

391
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Speaker 3: and see Johnny. He's gone down the slot down to

392
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Speaker 3: H Division. So I'd rock up to see Johnny, and

393
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Speaker 3: the prison officer would say, oh, he doesn't want to

394
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Speaker 3: see it, and I said, it's a right, I need

395
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Speaker 3: to say that with a big smirk on his face.

396
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Speaker 3: So I'd call someone else out, and then i'd work

397
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 3: out from the chief's office, I'd see who else was

398
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Speaker 3: in the yard with this original guy that I'd asked

399
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Speaker 3: to see. So I want to see Tommy Brown. Tommy

400
00:21:13,321 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 3: Brown come out very father, you know, yep, yep, yep.

401
00:21:16,041 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 3: I said, why didn't you want to see me? She

402
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,081
Speaker 3: didn't even know you were here. What do you mean?

403
00:21:19,561 --> 00:21:21,041
Speaker 3: And I said, oh, I heard he didn't want to

404
00:21:21,041 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 3: see me. So this second personer goes back to the

405
00:21:23,721 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 3: yard and tells him, and then from the artist, I

406
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,921
Speaker 3: want to see the bard Ray. I want to see

407
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Speaker 3: the eff and pard Ray and you know, so they

408
00:21:30,321 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 3: had to bring him and sure enough, black and blue

409
00:21:32,481 --> 00:21:35,441
Speaker 3: stitches all around his eyes and whatever. He had been

410
00:21:35,481 --> 00:21:37,801
Speaker 3: bashed as soon as he got there, seriously bashed, not

411
00:21:37,921 --> 00:21:41,601
Speaker 3: just fallen over. Should have been a hospital case. And

412
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Speaker 3: they didn't want the chaplain to see that type of thing.

413
00:21:44,801 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 2: You're one of the few people that wasn't in there

414
00:21:46,961 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 2: to give accounts of H Division. And we've seen the

415
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Speaker 2: Chopper film that's probably where we've most got a big

416
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Speaker 2: look at H Division.

417
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Speaker 1: Described the atmosphere in there, what was it like it.

418
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Speaker 3: Was compared to the rest of the prison, which was antiquated, yes,

419
00:22:00,721 --> 00:22:04,281
Speaker 3: and a lot of isolation, but it was militarized. It

420
00:22:04,321 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 3: was all like you're in a military camp marching. Instead

421
00:22:07,681 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 3: of walking, prisoners were went to march at the double

422
00:22:11,321 --> 00:22:14,441
Speaker 3: pace or something, and they weren't allowed to have any

423
00:22:14,481 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 3: eye contact. There was no TVs there. I think early

424
00:22:17,961 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 3: on they had radios and later they had TVs, but

425
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,881
Speaker 3: there were so many other punishments. There are some maximum

426
00:22:24,921 --> 00:22:27,481
Speaker 3: security places. I did a report for the Supreme Court

427
00:22:27,521 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: in Tasmania recently which replicates that there was a guy there.

428
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 3: He'd been in solitary confinement for four and a half years,

429
00:22:34,721 --> 00:22:37,521
Speaker 3: only got one hour of the solid day. He had

430
00:22:37,521 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 3: one book, no radio, no TV, no contact visits. In

431
00:22:41,681 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 3: other words, if you had a visitor, he had to

432
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,801
Speaker 3: have visitors, but behind a glass screen. And that went

433
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: on for practically four years until it was brought forward

434
00:22:50,521 --> 00:22:53,921
Speaker 3: into the Supreme Court, and unfortunately it was an out

435
00:22:53,921 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 3: of court settlement and the system was changed. Was based

436
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,721
Speaker 3: on what had been going on in Barwin in a

437
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,001
Speaker 3: CASIA unit in Victoria. All the training happens to Victoria.

438
00:23:04,041 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 3: The idea is Tazzy replicated and picked it up. But

439
00:23:07,201 --> 00:23:11,401
Speaker 3: because it wasn't a court decision, it didn't establish precedent,

440
00:23:11,801 --> 00:23:14,881
Speaker 3: so therefore there was no policy change. I did one

441
00:23:15,001 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: a similar case of the Supreme Court recently here in Victoria,

442
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,041
Speaker 3: a young Indigenous man who was mistreated in the cells

443
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: under the Melbourne Magistrates Court here in Melbourne in Lonstoyle Street,

444
00:23:26,961 --> 00:23:31,041
Speaker 3: and he became a quadriplegic, and it was medical neglect

445
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,041
Speaker 3: and they should have called a doctor in two nights

446
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 3: before he was flat out for three days and finally

447
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: when the doctor was called in the ambos, he was

448
00:23:40,481 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: set off to the Austin and he's now a quadriplegic.

449
00:23:45,041 --> 00:23:47,881
Speaker 3: Now he had a case that settled, and I don't

450
00:23:47,921 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: know what it was a secret settlement, but it'd be three,

451
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,001
Speaker 3: four or five million dollars easily. But there was no precedent,

452
00:23:54,201 --> 00:23:58,561
Speaker 3: in other words, no change in policy. So even only

453
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,521
Speaker 3: last month I went to see the secretary of the

454
00:24:00,521 --> 00:24:03,241
Speaker 3: Department and I said, well, look that's going to happen

455
00:24:03,281 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 3: again if you don't change it. You've got to have

456
00:24:05,201 --> 00:24:08,441
Speaker 3: a doctor turn up there every afternoon to make sure

457
00:24:08,481 --> 00:24:10,761
Speaker 3: those people should be in that place rather than at

458
00:24:10,801 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 3: a proper prison, and they should only be there for

459
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,921
Speaker 3: one or two nights, not for fourteen nights. And she said,

460
00:24:16,921 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 3: my biggest problem is finding themselves for all these extra

461
00:24:19,721 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 3: romand people that I've got. But that's how change occurred

462
00:24:23,681 --> 00:24:26,121
Speaker 3: in the United States. And I've been to those through

463
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:30,561
Speaker 3: the United States several times. California particularly, people say the

464
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,041
Speaker 3: changes occurred because it was costing too much money. It

465
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,601
Speaker 3: was civil action cases coming out of California that actually

466
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,241
Speaker 3: produced systemic change. And that's why you won't get these

467
00:24:41,321 --> 00:24:44,281
Speaker 3: changes by marching up and down the street. It's from

468
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 3: good human rights lawyers who are prepared to take on

469
00:24:47,801 --> 00:24:51,921
Speaker 3: these sorts of cases and establish precedent and changes in policy.

470
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:54,041
Speaker 1: Certainly wasn't happening back in the seventies.

471
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: No. Brutal, absolutely brutal h division and it was the

472
00:24:58,561 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 3: idea that make it tough and people will learn. But

473
00:25:01,801 --> 00:25:04,801
Speaker 3: as you say, there were very prominent examples where people

474
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,481
Speaker 3: came out and took it out on the community.

475
00:25:08,521 --> 00:25:12,041
Speaker 2: As you're talking to people in that situation and you're

476
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:17,201
Speaker 2: aware of the brutality, the pressure, the institutionalized brutality. Now

477
00:25:17,201 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: could you see the coarsening of the human spirit if

478
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: you like, the brutalizing of people going on?

479
00:25:24,041 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: Oh within no, but most of them were either broken

480
00:25:27,561 --> 00:25:32,321
Speaker 3: or they just became aggressive. But you had to be careful.

481
00:25:33,241 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: You know, the last man who had the Cat of

482
00:25:35,281 --> 00:25:38,561
Speaker 3: nine tales in Australia, Bill O'Malley. We had the last

483
00:25:38,561 --> 00:25:42,761
Speaker 3: man hanged in Australia, Ronald Ryan. But Bill O'Malley had

484
00:25:42,801 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: been o'melia O'Malley had been convicted of the murder of

485
00:25:46,921 --> 00:25:51,161
Speaker 3: a police officer and he got these Cat of nine tales.

486
00:25:51,681 --> 00:25:53,521
Speaker 3: I've read his book. I don't know how much of

487
00:25:53,561 --> 00:25:56,321
Speaker 3: that is true as against what the official record was.

488
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,521
Speaker 3: But he then learned to be tricky and people didn't

489
00:26:02,521 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 3: know what he was thinking. He'd been belted in the boys'

490
00:26:04,681 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: homes in New South Wales many many times as a

491
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: thirteen fourteen, fifteen year old that escaped very frequently. But

492
00:26:12,241 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: Bill learned not to give away what he was truly thinking.

493
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,401
Speaker 3: And that's the biggest danger. You don't know what impact

494
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,041
Speaker 3: are bashing or this neglect or solitary confinements having on

495
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,041
Speaker 3: the human mind until they get out, and that's when

496
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,561
Speaker 3: you can often see the consequences. And there were some

497
00:26:30,761 --> 00:26:34,561
Speaker 3: very notorious examples from h division. But look, there is

498
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,441
Speaker 3: a bit of a tendency to focus on the high

499
00:26:37,561 --> 00:26:40,801
Speaker 3: security prisons most of my time when I was working

500
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 3: as a chaplain, the people who are most concerned about

501
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: were the seventeen eighteen year olds in Remand for a

502
00:26:45,721 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: stolen car and their welfare and what was happening to

503
00:26:49,241 --> 00:26:53,441
Speaker 3: them because young kids. Now. I helped change the law

504
00:26:53,521 --> 00:26:56,721
Speaker 3: from seventeen to eighteen about ten fifteen years ago now,

505
00:26:57,281 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 3: and it was Steve Brax who did it.

506
00:26:58,921 --> 00:27:01,761
Speaker 1: Finally under Rob Holes, former Victorian premier.

507
00:27:01,521 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: As Attorney General. When Brax was Premier and Rob Holes

508
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 3: was the Attorney General, they weren't going to change the

509
00:27:07,441 --> 00:27:10,521
Speaker 3: law even though it had been policy. Anyhow, after several

510
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,641
Speaker 3: years we brought the change about. So it's now eighteen

511
00:27:15,001 --> 00:27:17,761
Speaker 3: in Victoria as in the rest of the country. But

512
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: this idea of changing from ten to fourteen, which has

513
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: been resisted by the Victorian government, but around Australia has

514
00:27:24,761 --> 00:27:27,681
Speaker 3: also been resisted, I think Northern Territory change, but they're

515
00:27:27,681 --> 00:27:31,801
Speaker 3: moved it back. Queensland still ten year olds. Well, you know,

516
00:27:32,441 --> 00:27:35,401
Speaker 3: putting ten year olds in custody now if they've committed

517
00:27:35,441 --> 00:27:37,921
Speaker 3: a serious crime, and sometimes there's a twelve year old

518
00:27:38,001 --> 00:27:40,401
Speaker 3: or a thirteen year old that will commit murder. We're

519
00:27:40,441 --> 00:27:43,561
Speaker 3: not talking about those cases. We're talking about, particularly in

520
00:27:43,561 --> 00:27:47,001
Speaker 3: the territory or Western Australia, Aboriginal kids who win their

521
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 3: charged had taken thousands of climeters away on remand down

522
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,721
Speaker 3: to Perth, and they might be there for a week

523
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: or two, but sometimes they might be there for a

524
00:27:56,201 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: couple of months, even for vandalism charge. This is the

525
00:28:00,281 --> 00:28:03,961
Speaker 3: best way to create a criminal identity and to lay

526
00:28:03,961 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 3: the foundations of a or career.

527
00:28:06,761 --> 00:28:09,641
Speaker 2: True And as you say, I guess the people who

528
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: were in h Division and Jaiker Jiker and the adult

529
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,401
Speaker 2: the gangsters is that probably were beyond really come redemption.

530
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: But you're focusing on the up and comers who are

531
00:28:16,921 --> 00:28:20,201
Speaker 2: coming in there, and they're seeing a lot of life

532
00:28:20,241 --> 00:28:24,961
Speaker 2: opportunities gone, employment, education and so forth. So what did

533
00:28:25,001 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: you see your role? I mean, you're more a social

534
00:28:28,041 --> 00:28:29,241
Speaker 2: worker really than a priest.

535
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 3: No, you're there for the whole person. And that's what

536
00:28:32,681 --> 00:28:35,041
Speaker 3: I said before. That's why i'd rock up an industry

537
00:28:35,041 --> 00:28:38,601
Speaker 3: and education and family visits I'd turn in. I wouldn't

538
00:28:38,601 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: intrude on family visits, but you'd walk into the visiting

539
00:28:41,241 --> 00:28:43,161
Speaker 3: era and if someone called you over you come and

540
00:28:43,241 --> 00:28:46,801
Speaker 3: join the family, and you'd visit the families out of ours.

541
00:28:47,401 --> 00:28:51,001
Speaker 3: But people misunderstand these days, particularly what the role of

542
00:28:51,001 --> 00:28:52,641
Speaker 3: a chaplin might be, or what the role of a

543
00:28:52,681 --> 00:28:56,521
Speaker 3: priest was. At least it wasn't like a supermarket person

544
00:28:56,601 --> 00:29:00,881
Speaker 3: running around doing weddings, funerals and baptisms. It was actually

545
00:29:01,161 --> 00:29:04,081
Speaker 3: knocking on doors and being part of the community. Now,

546
00:29:04,321 --> 00:29:07,121
Speaker 3: particularly in the for a church, because of the shortage

547
00:29:07,121 --> 00:29:10,201
Speaker 3: of priests, they can't do that. Instead of having two

548
00:29:10,281 --> 00:29:12,201
Speaker 3: or three priests in each parish, now they've got one

549
00:29:12,201 --> 00:29:16,361
Speaker 3: priest running three parishes and all he does is jumping

550
00:29:16,441 --> 00:29:18,281
Speaker 3: his car and drive from one place to the other.

551
00:29:18,481 --> 00:29:21,521
Speaker 3: And a capacity to actually be engaged. So when I

552
00:29:21,561 --> 00:29:24,561
Speaker 3: was chuckling at prison, coming back to the central focus

553
00:29:24,561 --> 00:29:28,361
Speaker 3: of our discussion, I was playing that pastoral role. And

554
00:29:28,441 --> 00:29:31,881
Speaker 3: out of the pastoral role becomes a guidance role, and

555
00:29:31,921 --> 00:29:35,241
Speaker 3: out of the guidance role sometimes comes a spiritual role.

556
00:29:35,761 --> 00:29:38,841
Speaker 3: But you don't start the other way around. You'll scare people.

557
00:29:38,841 --> 00:29:41,801
Speaker 3: Offer to start, but people also you've got to establish

558
00:29:41,881 --> 00:29:45,881
Speaker 3: a credibility and your capacity to engage in order to

559
00:29:45,881 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: be able to work at that deeper level.

560
00:29:48,041 --> 00:29:50,761
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found a very minor way.

561
00:29:50,761 --> 00:29:53,201
Speaker 2: I've been speaking the prisoners for twenty five years as well,

562
00:29:53,241 --> 00:29:57,241
Speaker 2: I guess, and that pastoral thing is very important, particularly

563
00:29:57,241 --> 00:29:59,921
Speaker 2: when you see people who've gone in there and they've

564
00:29:59,961 --> 00:30:01,361
Speaker 2: been on the tear outside.

565
00:30:01,361 --> 00:30:04,801
Speaker 1: They're probably alcohol affected, off in drugs. There's a lot

566
00:30:04,801 --> 00:30:06,681
Speaker 1: of from all around them. When something in the.

567
00:30:06,641 --> 00:30:10,241
Speaker 2: Solitude and the quiet of the prison, insight begins to

568
00:30:11,161 --> 00:30:14,321
Speaker 2: occur and there's a desire to talk.

569
00:30:15,281 --> 00:30:17,041
Speaker 1: Could you see that as certain prisoners.

570
00:30:17,241 --> 00:30:19,121
Speaker 3: I know it happened a lot, not for everyone, and

571
00:30:19,161 --> 00:30:21,481
Speaker 3: you don't impose yourself on everyone. But on the day

572
00:30:21,681 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: that Pentridge officially closed in ninety six or thereabouts, I

573
00:30:26,321 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: was asked to speak at the closing ceremony, despite the

574
00:30:28,761 --> 00:30:31,641
Speaker 3: fact that I'd been a public critic of the system.

575
00:30:32,281 --> 00:30:34,761
Speaker 3: The governor or the director of the prisons that invited

576
00:30:34,801 --> 00:30:37,881
Speaker 3: me to speak, and I only had a few minutes,

577
00:30:38,081 --> 00:30:42,041
Speaker 3: and I said, every cell in this institution has been

578
00:30:42,081 --> 00:30:45,841
Speaker 3: wept in and every cell has been prayed in, every

579
00:30:45,921 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: cell And it was just a catchy phrase which got

580
00:30:49,481 --> 00:30:52,681
Speaker 3: remembered and picked up. When I finished in the prison,

581
00:30:53,481 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: I was moving on to another job and we had

582
00:30:56,041 --> 00:30:59,121
Speaker 3: a chaplains meeting with the other Protestant chaplains, and the

583
00:30:59,161 --> 00:31:01,561
Speaker 3: governor of the prison was meant to offer me a plaque,

584
00:31:01,561 --> 00:31:03,561
Speaker 3: which was a bit silly because prison offices used to

585
00:31:03,561 --> 00:31:06,001
Speaker 3: get a plark as public servant because they had been

586
00:31:06,001 --> 00:31:08,761
Speaker 3: in uniform. But they started giving one to retiring chaplains,

587
00:31:09,721 --> 00:31:13,121
Speaker 3: and the word went around that the governor wasn't refused

588
00:31:13,161 --> 00:31:16,481
Speaker 3: to present this plaque to me, and the other chaplains

589
00:31:16,481 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 3: were a bit churlish about it and sort of saying, well,

590
00:31:19,001 --> 00:31:21,681
Speaker 3: that serves him right, really, But I said, look, I

591
00:31:21,681 --> 00:31:23,881
Speaker 3: can only come for a short time of this chaplains

592
00:31:23,921 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: meeting because I've got to go into town. Actually, the

593
00:31:26,281 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: minister's going to present the plaque to me himself, so

594
00:31:30,361 --> 00:31:32,921
Speaker 3: as the minister who decided to be the puck, possibly

595
00:31:33,001 --> 00:31:36,041
Speaker 3: because he thought it might be bad, you know, publicity.

596
00:31:36,081 --> 00:31:38,001
Speaker 3: If the plaque wasn't presented to me, not that I

597
00:31:38,041 --> 00:31:40,761
Speaker 3: wanted it, Now I have it a pride of place

598
00:31:40,761 --> 00:31:42,641
Speaker 3: at home. More is a bit of a joke than

599
00:31:43,961 --> 00:31:46,281
Speaker 3: any kind of If I had been a prison officer

600
00:31:46,281 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: and worked there for twenty years, obviously it's got a

601
00:31:48,241 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 3: different significance. But as a chaplain, I didn't want to

602
00:31:51,201 --> 00:31:55,601
Speaker 3: be part of the social control system because very easy

603
00:31:55,681 --> 00:31:58,041
Speaker 3: for chaplains, and I've written something about this in a

604
00:31:58,121 --> 00:32:01,601
Speaker 3: journal recently. Very easy for chaplains to be part of

605
00:32:01,601 --> 00:32:04,641
Speaker 3: the social control system. After all, the modern prison was

606
00:32:04,681 --> 00:32:09,321
Speaker 3: built the monastic model. For your listeners, I'm talking about monasteries,

607
00:32:09,441 --> 00:32:12,841
Speaker 3: monks who lived in cells and they were cut off

608
00:32:12,881 --> 00:32:15,601
Speaker 3: from the outside world and just had the Bible and

609
00:32:15,681 --> 00:32:20,521
Speaker 3: they're singing in the chapel. And so the modern design

610
00:32:20,641 --> 00:32:23,881
Speaker 3: of the prisons from England was built on that monastic model,

611
00:32:23,961 --> 00:32:24,721
Speaker 3: like a monastery.

612
00:32:24,761 --> 00:32:26,841
Speaker 1: I never knew that, hence the word cell.

613
00:32:27,241 --> 00:32:29,721
Speaker 3: And the only thing you didn't have TVs or radios,

614
00:32:29,761 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 3: You had a Bible and you'd only get out of

615
00:32:32,241 --> 00:32:34,841
Speaker 3: the cell for an hour's exercise into one of these

616
00:32:35,401 --> 00:32:38,041
Speaker 3: the big exercise yard. You get out and exercise and

617
00:32:38,041 --> 00:32:40,761
Speaker 3: there'd be a prison officer in the center tower and

618
00:32:40,761 --> 00:32:41,601
Speaker 3: you wouldn't even be.

619
00:32:43,241 --> 00:32:45,801
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, they don't see everything from the tower.

620
00:32:46,121 --> 00:32:48,841
Speaker 3: They only discover them in the foundations in the old

621
00:32:48,881 --> 00:32:53,321
Speaker 3: Pentridge prison only very recent years. Yeah, the chaplain can

622
00:32:53,361 --> 00:32:56,561
Speaker 3: be very easily made part of the social control system.

623
00:32:56,761 --> 00:32:59,641
Speaker 3: When I visited America for the first time and I

624
00:32:59,841 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: was part of a more progressive network of prison chaplains

625
00:33:03,521 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: part of particularly through the Jesuit Network and others, but

626
00:33:07,321 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 3: the American Correctional Chaplains Association didn't oppose capital punishment and

627
00:33:13,281 --> 00:33:17,081
Speaker 3: at the time didn't oppose the rapid expansion of the

628
00:33:17,081 --> 00:33:20,361
Speaker 3: prison system that took place through the nineteen eighties. Of

629
00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:25,361
Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties, the prison population of America increased by

630
00:33:25,401 --> 00:33:27,401
Speaker 3: a million and a few years and then a second

631
00:33:27,401 --> 00:33:31,841
Speaker 3: million ad huge cost to the community, despite the fact

632
00:33:31,841 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: crime wasn't dramatically increasing, it was significant. But after the

633
00:33:36,481 --> 00:33:40,561
Speaker 3: first million extra prisoners they found in America, there was

634
00:33:40,601 --> 00:33:43,921
Speaker 3: obviously a significant drop in the crime rate because street

635
00:33:44,241 --> 00:33:46,281
Speaker 3: it was easy to go to New York without getting

636
00:33:46,321 --> 00:33:50,321
Speaker 3: margged and so on. But the second midion no measurable

637
00:33:50,401 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: impact on crime or community safety for the second million people.

638
00:33:54,441 --> 00:33:57,601
Speaker 3: All the research has been done, so obviously more people

639
00:33:57,601 --> 00:34:00,521
Speaker 3: could have gone to prison make the streets safer, but

640
00:34:00,641 --> 00:34:06,641
Speaker 3: the second million nothing and huge expect both financial and

641
00:34:06,721 --> 00:34:10,361
Speaker 3: social cost. All those people in prison have got kids,

642
00:34:11,081 --> 00:34:14,481
Speaker 3: and it's those kids who don't have dads, and in

643
00:34:14,561 --> 00:34:17,961
Speaker 3: some ways, even though they are the father, the dads

644
00:34:18,081 --> 00:34:22,841
Speaker 3: actually perform a negative role because there's a high possibility

645
00:34:22,841 --> 00:34:26,361
Speaker 3: that those kids will model themselves on their father's antisocial

646
00:34:26,481 --> 00:34:30,121
Speaker 3: behavior because the father is not home, is in prison.

647
00:34:31,641 --> 00:34:36,161
Speaker 2: The confessionals always regarded as sacrisanct, the confidentiality when you're

648
00:34:36,881 --> 00:34:39,921
Speaker 2: in cells with prisoners and talking to them, did you

649
00:34:39,961 --> 00:34:41,601
Speaker 2: take a similar approduct, I mean them, I guess there

650
00:34:41,601 --> 00:34:43,641
Speaker 2: are moments where they could have passed information to you

651
00:34:43,681 --> 00:34:46,321
Speaker 2: that might have been important to the waters.

652
00:34:47,001 --> 00:34:49,521
Speaker 3: Ah, well, that's right in terms of being part of

653
00:34:49,521 --> 00:34:55,681
Speaker 3: the system. The confessional secrecy, which is part of church's

654
00:34:56,321 --> 00:35:00,201
Speaker 3: rules and regulations, doesn't just apply to what's called the

655
00:35:00,281 --> 00:35:05,081
Speaker 3: sacramental confession. It also applies to the professional role of

656
00:35:05,121 --> 00:35:08,361
Speaker 3: the chaplain as a confidant, much the same as it

657
00:35:08,401 --> 00:35:12,361
Speaker 3: does to a lawyer and a doctor. That confidentiality has

658
00:35:12,401 --> 00:35:17,161
Speaker 3: to be interpreted broadly in terms of the professional practice.

659
00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:20,561
Speaker 3: But I would avoid being in situations where I was

660
00:35:20,641 --> 00:35:23,681
Speaker 3: receiving information that might have compromised me. And on some

661
00:35:23,761 --> 00:35:27,321
Speaker 3: occasions prisoners wanted to put you in a situation where

662
00:35:27,321 --> 00:35:31,161
Speaker 3: you were compromised for their own advantage, So you had

663
00:35:31,201 --> 00:35:33,521
Speaker 3: to be a bit smart. They might have thought that

664
00:35:33,561 --> 00:35:35,961
Speaker 3: you were a bit naive, and it's okay if they

665
00:35:36,001 --> 00:35:39,601
Speaker 3: think that. But behind it all even through the Gangland

666
00:35:39,641 --> 00:35:44,121
Speaker 3: Wars later on, which I was centrally involved doing quite

667
00:35:44,161 --> 00:35:46,561
Speaker 3: a few of the funerals, I always had a bit

668
00:35:46,601 --> 00:35:48,921
Speaker 3: in reserve that I knew that I needed to be

669
00:35:48,961 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: in charge of the situation. I'd turn up at some

670
00:35:52,241 --> 00:35:56,401
Speaker 3: social functions, birthday parties or whatever they were, whether it

671
00:35:56,441 --> 00:35:58,521
Speaker 3: was a wedding or a baptism or something for the

672
00:35:58,601 --> 00:36:01,801
Speaker 3: families of some of the people centrally involved in that,

673
00:36:02,441 --> 00:36:04,521
Speaker 3: and that was my role as a chaplain, to be

674
00:36:04,601 --> 00:36:08,401
Speaker 3: part of it social world. But at some of those functions,

675
00:36:08,561 --> 00:36:11,401
Speaker 3: I would not only see solicitors there, but I'd also

676
00:36:11,561 --> 00:36:15,521
Speaker 3: see barristers there, and I used to ask myself, and

677
00:36:15,561 --> 00:36:19,281
Speaker 3: I never really challenged them, what hell is this barrister

678
00:36:19,441 --> 00:36:23,201
Speaker 3: doing at this family function? Solicitor you might ask the

679
00:36:23,201 --> 00:36:26,321
Speaker 3: same question, but it's a little bit not quite as clear.

680
00:36:27,041 --> 00:36:32,001
Speaker 3: I had serious reservations that criminal barristers were crossing the

681
00:36:32,081 --> 00:36:36,001
Speaker 3: line by socializing with some of these people that they'd represented.

682
00:36:36,481 --> 00:36:38,801
Speaker 3: Now many many of them, most of them wouldn't do it,

683
00:36:39,401 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: and I'm not going to mention any names, but it's

684
00:36:41,521 --> 00:36:44,121
Speaker 3: just a question that came to my mind, and I

685
00:36:44,121 --> 00:36:46,801
Speaker 3: had to think about what my role was there. Have

686
00:36:46,961 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 3: dinner and whatever with the families. But I didn't want

687
00:36:50,441 --> 00:36:51,361
Speaker 3: to be compromised.

688
00:36:51,881 --> 00:36:54,161
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can have a few names with Bob Vernon

689
00:36:54,201 --> 00:36:57,761
Speaker 2: and Brian Burke and the host of them, Andrew Fraser.

690
00:36:58,641 --> 00:37:00,441
Speaker 2: You wonder why that is, and I think maybe they did.

691
00:37:00,481 --> 00:37:03,161
Speaker 2: They were just better company. I think them probably judges

692
00:37:03,281 --> 00:37:06,001
Speaker 2: or other barristers or certainly believe warders.

693
00:37:06,561 --> 00:37:09,681
Speaker 3: Yes, oh well, I mean that's their judgment. And I

694
00:37:09,721 --> 00:37:12,841
Speaker 3: think the experienced people like Brian Burke would never have

695
00:37:12,921 --> 00:37:16,921
Speaker 3: been compromised. But I saw others that I thought could

696
00:37:16,921 --> 00:37:19,121
Speaker 3: have been. I can't sit in judgment on them, but

697
00:37:19,161 --> 00:37:21,641
Speaker 3: I just wondered about that crossing the line a bit.

698
00:37:22,601 --> 00:37:23,401
Speaker 1: Yes, I did meet you.

699
00:37:23,441 --> 00:37:25,401
Speaker 2: I think it was in December two thousand and three

700
00:37:26,121 --> 00:37:29,561
Speaker 2: when you were officiating at Graham the Munster Kinnerburg's funeral.

701
00:37:29,601 --> 00:37:32,241
Speaker 2: He'd been murdered in the first week of December in

702
00:37:32,361 --> 00:37:34,601
Speaker 2: that year by Carl William's cohort.

703
00:37:35,321 --> 00:37:38,721
Speaker 1: And you gave a very memorable service.

704
00:37:38,761 --> 00:37:41,361
Speaker 2: It was the Sacred Heart Q I believe, yes, right,

705
00:37:41,561 --> 00:37:44,921
Speaker 2: and everyone was. There was a huge moment. Church was overflowing.

706
00:37:44,921 --> 00:37:47,801
Speaker 2: It was full of criminal heads. How would you at

707
00:37:47,841 --> 00:37:50,561
Speaker 2: you go about framing a not a eulogy of but

708
00:37:50,561 --> 00:37:53,561
Speaker 2: a whole service around someone who's died so violently.

709
00:37:54,081 --> 00:37:56,441
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there were I knew Graham pretty well. He

710
00:37:56,561 --> 00:38:00,681
Speaker 3: used to He and his wife Sybil used to call

711
00:38:00,681 --> 00:38:03,121
Speaker 3: at a restaurant in Bridge Road, Richmond. I was at

712
00:38:03,121 --> 00:38:05,521
Speaker 3: Saint Saint Ignatius Church on the hill and I'd be

713
00:38:05,561 --> 00:38:08,001
Speaker 3: walking the dog and Graham it would be at this

714
00:38:08,921 --> 00:38:13,121
Speaker 3: Italian place, just a reasonable cheebot place, and you'd see

715
00:38:13,161 --> 00:38:17,081
Speaker 3: me go past, you come out going and I said,

716
00:38:17,081 --> 00:38:18,241
Speaker 3: what are you here for? He said, I like to

717
00:38:18,281 --> 00:38:20,641
Speaker 3: come here on Tuesday nights because the Tigers coming here

718
00:38:20,681 --> 00:38:23,441
Speaker 3: from their pastor after their training. And he was like

719
00:38:23,481 --> 00:38:26,761
Speaker 3: a kid wanting to see these football players with his wife.

720
00:38:27,321 --> 00:38:31,241
Speaker 3: But no at Graham's funeral and he was gunned down

721
00:38:32,281 --> 00:38:33,761
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night when he was just

722
00:38:33,801 --> 00:38:37,721
Speaker 3: coming home to cure his family home. And I got

723
00:38:37,721 --> 00:38:42,561
Speaker 3: a call, as I had several times previously from the family.

724
00:38:42,641 --> 00:38:45,881
Speaker 3: Sybil rang and as I said to Cameron Stewart, I

725
00:38:45,881 --> 00:38:50,361
Speaker 3: think in the Australia Yea that his headline was that

726
00:38:50,401 --> 00:38:54,761
Speaker 3: they'd moved from being gangster wives to gangster widows in

727
00:38:54,881 --> 00:38:59,761
Speaker 3: five seconds. And they would then call and not necessarily

728
00:38:59,801 --> 00:39:03,121
Speaker 3: in this order according to Father Nordon, the police, their

729
00:39:03,201 --> 00:39:06,081
Speaker 3: lawyer and the priest, but not necessary early in that order.

730
00:39:06,561 --> 00:39:08,801
Speaker 3: So when I get a call from civil at two

731
00:39:08,921 --> 00:39:10,881
Speaker 3: or something, I'm over there in.

732
00:39:10,841 --> 00:39:13,321
Speaker 1: The morning, in the morning after the murder.

733
00:39:13,401 --> 00:39:18,241
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm there within ten minutes. I drive from Richmond

734
00:39:18,281 --> 00:39:20,841
Speaker 3: over to q By the time I get there, there's

735
00:39:20,841 --> 00:39:23,321
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty coppers there. They've already got a

736
00:39:23,481 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: caravan there making hamburgers and coffee. And I thought, it's

737
00:39:28,001 --> 00:39:31,601
Speaker 3: just funny. It's a bit suspicious, but I was being paranoid.

738
00:39:31,961 --> 00:39:34,161
Speaker 3: But anyhow, they have these systems ready to roll out.

739
00:39:35,441 --> 00:39:38,441
Speaker 3: And so there was a young copper standing outside and

740
00:39:38,481 --> 00:39:40,321
Speaker 3: he said, what are you doing in here? And I said, oh,

741
00:39:40,401 --> 00:39:43,241
Speaker 3: I obviously allowed in. I'm a chaplain to the family

742
00:39:43,321 --> 00:39:45,881
Speaker 3: and I'm being called to the family to conduct the

743
00:39:45,961 --> 00:39:49,641
Speaker 3: last rites. So I open up the book. He's and

744
00:39:49,681 --> 00:39:52,641
Speaker 3: I've got the oil and whatever, and you're not allowed

745
00:39:52,681 --> 00:39:55,841
Speaker 3: touch the body. And I said, well, I'm doing the annoying.

746
00:39:55,921 --> 00:39:58,561
Speaker 3: I've got to annoy at the forehead and the palms.

747
00:39:59,201 --> 00:40:01,001
Speaker 3: You're not allowed to touch the body, and I know.

748
00:40:02,161 --> 00:40:05,521
Speaker 3: So I then started the service and I turned up

749
00:40:05,521 --> 00:40:08,961
Speaker 3: the volume saying that these prayers and you know, a

750
00:40:09,041 --> 00:40:12,681
Speaker 3: gospel passage, and the officers started getting a bit embarrassed

751
00:40:12,681 --> 00:40:16,161
Speaker 3: because I'm doing this religious thing. And so he turns

752
00:40:16,161 --> 00:40:19,401
Speaker 3: and looks the other way. While he's turning the other

753
00:40:19,441 --> 00:40:22,121
Speaker 3: way for twenty seconds, bang the oil goes on the

754
00:40:22,201 --> 00:40:25,521
Speaker 3: monster's forehead and on his wrists. So I fulfilled what

755
00:40:25,841 --> 00:40:30,001
Speaker 3: was my professional duty. I mean, there's not as interfering

756
00:40:30,041 --> 00:40:33,121
Speaker 3: with a crime scene. They knew how he died, and

757
00:40:33,161 --> 00:40:36,601
Speaker 3: it wasn't from anything I'd done. It was from a

758
00:40:36,641 --> 00:40:40,521
Speaker 3: thirty eight revolver. So anyhow, we go inside. I said,

759
00:40:40,521 --> 00:40:42,201
Speaker 3: I'll go and to see the family. You've done what

760
00:40:42,241 --> 00:40:45,441
Speaker 3: you know, I'll go and see the family. And so

761
00:40:45,601 --> 00:40:48,601
Speaker 3: there's three or four senior inspectors there and talked at

762
00:40:48,601 --> 00:40:50,681
Speaker 3: FAB five. So one of the inspectors say, you're ready

763
00:40:50,681 --> 00:40:52,881
Speaker 3: to go now, father, and I said, no, not at all.

764
00:40:53,441 --> 00:40:55,521
Speaker 3: I'll be here for a long time. Mat He said,

765
00:40:55,561 --> 00:40:57,601
Speaker 3: I thought you might have been finished, you know, you're

766
00:40:57,601 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 3: having done the annoying And I said, oh no, it's

767
00:41:01,481 --> 00:41:04,041
Speaker 3: been a pretty tough I'll be here as long as

768
00:41:04,041 --> 00:41:07,721
Speaker 3: the family want me here. And so he then thinks

769
00:41:07,761 --> 00:41:10,801
Speaker 3: to himself and he says, Look, Missus Kinnerborough, it's been

770
00:41:10,841 --> 00:41:14,001
Speaker 3: a shocking experience for you, but you know we can

771
00:41:14,041 --> 00:41:15,801
Speaker 3: solve a lot of these things. If you and the

772
00:41:15,841 --> 00:41:18,521
Speaker 3: family members were to come down to some Kilda road now,

773
00:41:19,001 --> 00:41:21,121
Speaker 3: you could make your statements and it all be finished.

774
00:41:21,161 --> 00:41:22,561
Speaker 3: You know, you wouldn't have to worry having to do

775
00:41:22,601 --> 00:41:25,241
Speaker 3: it in the next couple of days. So several turns

776
00:41:25,241 --> 00:41:28,481
Speaker 3: and looks at me and I go, I'm shaking my head, No,

777
00:41:28,641 --> 00:41:32,561
Speaker 3: don't do it, and he's sort of persisting, and I said, Inspector,

778
00:41:33,441 --> 00:41:36,241
Speaker 3: Missus Kinnerburrough has had a very, very difficult time. As

779
00:41:36,241 --> 00:41:39,441
Speaker 3: of the family members, I think it'd be much better

780
00:41:39,841 --> 00:41:41,761
Speaker 3: for them to stay here in their own home and

781
00:41:42,201 --> 00:41:45,161
Speaker 3: within the next few days they will be happy to

782
00:41:45,241 --> 00:41:48,561
Speaker 3: do the interviews that you have suggested, But not tonight, Inspector.

783
00:41:49,321 --> 00:41:51,601
Speaker 3: But the inspector wanted the family out of the house

784
00:41:52,241 --> 00:41:55,641
Speaker 3: so they could search the place, and they wanted the

785
00:41:55,641 --> 00:41:57,921
Speaker 3: place empty so they could go through with a fine

786
00:41:57,961 --> 00:42:01,081
Speaker 3: tooth comb and find a whole lot of what they

787
00:42:01,121 --> 00:42:03,401
Speaker 3: thought might have been evidence. Now I'm not there on

788
00:42:04,081 --> 00:42:07,001
Speaker 3: Graham's side. They had every right in the world to

789
00:42:07,041 --> 00:42:09,441
Speaker 3: stay in that home that night and not to be

790
00:42:09,561 --> 00:42:12,201
Speaker 3: talked into having to leave the home to give some

791
00:42:12,281 --> 00:42:16,321
Speaker 3: interview at two or three in the morning, after Graham

792
00:42:16,321 --> 00:42:19,521
Speaker 3: had been shot dead on their doorstep. Now I'm not

793
00:42:19,561 --> 00:42:22,761
Speaker 3: saying that because I wanted to disrupt the police duties,

794
00:42:23,361 --> 00:42:25,601
Speaker 3: but it was just if I hadn't have been there,

795
00:42:26,601 --> 00:42:29,321
Speaker 3: they would have had a lot of trouble saying no

796
00:42:29,561 --> 00:42:32,441
Speaker 3: to that pressure being placed on them by that senior

797
00:42:32,481 --> 00:42:34,161
Speaker 3: inspector from the homicide squad.

798
00:42:35,961 --> 00:42:38,361
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think that, and the place could have

799
00:42:38,401 --> 00:42:40,001
Speaker 2: been searched, and it could have been very embarrassing for

800
00:42:40,001 --> 00:42:43,321
Speaker 2: everyone because obviously Graham was a prolific receiver of stolen goods,

801
00:42:43,361 --> 00:42:47,761
Speaker 2: and so they say it's all in the past now,

802
00:42:47,841 --> 00:42:50,161
Speaker 2: but I think but he was also the old school

803
00:42:50,161 --> 00:42:53,121
Speaker 2: where those guys didn't share much with their wives because

804
00:42:53,161 --> 00:42:55,121
Speaker 2: they might have to be forced into that situation at

805
00:42:55,121 --> 00:42:57,761
Speaker 2: some stage or other. And I think he knew better

806
00:42:57,761 --> 00:43:00,881
Speaker 2: than to burden his wife with those things. But that era, right,

807
00:43:00,961 --> 00:43:02,521
Speaker 2: We can go to the gang lay war, because it

808
00:43:02,561 --> 00:43:05,561
Speaker 2: was that's what I really started my crime career, if

809
00:43:05,561 --> 00:43:09,321
Speaker 2: you like, and the violence and the spondineity of it.

810
00:43:09,361 --> 00:43:11,241
Speaker 2: And I think we've had a lot of gang wors

811
00:43:11,321 --> 00:43:15,641
Speaker 2: since in Australia, but that one seems to still be

812
00:43:15,721 --> 00:43:16,521
Speaker 2: the high watermark.

813
00:43:17,441 --> 00:43:20,481
Speaker 3: Well, it was complicated because when I was cutting my

814
00:43:20,601 --> 00:43:24,601
Speaker 3: teeth during the seventies, ten years fifteen years before, there

815
00:43:24,681 --> 00:43:27,601
Speaker 3: was such a thing as a consorting squad, and the

816
00:43:27,681 --> 00:43:32,281
Speaker 3: consorting squad was an intelligence gathering squad in Victoria Police,

817
00:43:32,321 --> 00:43:35,921
Speaker 3: and there was one in every jurisdiction around Australia and

818
00:43:36,001 --> 00:43:39,081
Speaker 3: they would be doing research and gathering data and who's

819
00:43:39,121 --> 00:43:42,761
Speaker 3: connected to herm And eventually the consorting squads were abandoned.

820
00:43:43,561 --> 00:43:47,561
Speaker 3: So when the Gangland murders started occurring in Melbourne early

821
00:43:47,681 --> 00:43:51,241
Speaker 3: nineties to mid nineties, at least with about thirty thirty

822
00:43:51,241 --> 00:43:58,881
Speaker 3: plus deaths occurring, the police had no background information and

823
00:43:59,241 --> 00:44:02,601
Speaker 3: it was either yourself or Cameron Stewart that asked me,

824
00:44:02,761 --> 00:44:05,881
Speaker 3: had I ever heard of someone called Benji andvy Venemon?

825
00:44:06,081 --> 00:44:06,441
Speaker 1: Yeah?

826
00:44:06,481 --> 00:44:09,521
Speaker 3: And I said, no, I know who you referring to,

827
00:44:09,601 --> 00:44:11,521
Speaker 3: but I don't know him and I don't know who

828
00:44:11,521 --> 00:44:14,841
Speaker 3: he is because he came from nowhere. And it was

829
00:44:14,881 --> 00:44:17,561
Speaker 3: a journalist, whether it was yourself or whether it was

830
00:44:17,641 --> 00:44:21,761
Speaker 3: Cameron Stuart, was asking me that question. But they had

831
00:44:21,801 --> 00:44:24,801
Speaker 3: no background information and there was a change in power

832
00:44:24,921 --> 00:44:29,641
Speaker 3: dynamics going on between those who were the old crew

833
00:44:29,841 --> 00:44:33,041
Speaker 3: often centered around Carlton and a new crew that was

834
00:44:33,081 --> 00:44:36,121
Speaker 3: growing up in the western suburbs. Who don't need to

835
00:44:36,161 --> 00:44:38,681
Speaker 3: mention any names, but there was a power struggle going

836
00:44:38,721 --> 00:44:40,961
Speaker 3: on and that was what it was all over, and

837
00:44:41,001 --> 00:44:44,361
Speaker 3: a lot of strong egos that had been offended, and

838
00:44:44,721 --> 00:44:47,561
Speaker 3: it went on and on and on. But the police

839
00:44:47,641 --> 00:44:53,521
Speaker 3: had very little intelligence and possibly that's why they compromised

840
00:44:53,561 --> 00:44:59,081
Speaker 3: themselves at that time and decided to proceed with witness.

841
00:44:58,841 --> 00:45:00,641
Speaker 1: X oh Nicola Gobbo.

842
00:45:01,521 --> 00:45:04,361
Speaker 3: It was pretty desperate times. There were a lot of deaths.

843
00:45:05,161 --> 00:45:08,841
Speaker 3: They didn't know what was going on. They felt they

844
00:45:08,881 --> 00:45:15,041
Speaker 3: needed to compromise a barrister who was representing some of

845
00:45:15,081 --> 00:45:19,201
Speaker 3: these people and at the same time allegedly became a

846
00:45:19,281 --> 00:45:23,961
Speaker 3: Crown witness against them. Now, the senior police would say

847
00:45:24,001 --> 00:45:26,521
Speaker 3: and did say in the Royal Commission, and they can

848
00:45:26,601 --> 00:45:30,241
Speaker 3: remain nameless, that they were not aware that Gobo was

849
00:45:30,281 --> 00:45:33,001
Speaker 3: actually giving evidence to police on people that she was

850
00:45:33,041 --> 00:45:37,041
Speaker 3: currently representing. That's what they said on sworn evidence at

851
00:45:37,041 --> 00:45:41,561
Speaker 3: the Royal Commission. Certain senior officers. Well that could well

852
00:45:41,641 --> 00:45:45,401
Speaker 3: be true. It sounds unlikely, but if it's sworn evidence

853
00:45:45,401 --> 00:45:49,521
Speaker 3: from very senior ex officers. You'd have to give it

854
00:45:49,561 --> 00:45:51,961
Speaker 3: some credibility. That might be the case, because that's the

855
00:45:52,001 --> 00:45:54,721
Speaker 3: sworn evidence they gave in the Royal Commission. But they

856
00:45:54,721 --> 00:45:57,961
Speaker 3: were certainly in the dark and they were desperate to

857
00:45:58,401 --> 00:46:01,361
Speaker 3: find out what the next step was. But at Graham's

858
00:46:01,361 --> 00:46:04,921
Speaker 3: funeral at Sacred Heart, you asked me the question how

859
00:46:05,201 --> 00:46:08,361
Speaker 3: you proceed with that? Well, I knew that crew, a

860
00:46:08,481 --> 00:46:12,041
Speaker 3: number of them pretty well. Media were thrown outside and

861
00:46:12,041 --> 00:46:15,081
Speaker 3: weren't allowed in, although someone had a microphone inside and

862
00:46:15,121 --> 00:46:17,801
Speaker 3: they had a camera through a side door. But I

863
00:46:17,841 --> 00:46:21,321
Speaker 3: remember one of the lines there that I said was

864
00:46:22,201 --> 00:46:24,841
Speaker 3: by this time a dozen or more of the people

865
00:46:24,841 --> 00:46:28,241
Speaker 3: that I knew had been murdered, And I said to

866
00:46:28,281 --> 00:46:31,921
Speaker 3: this group they were about four hundred there. Real strength

867
00:46:32,561 --> 00:46:35,801
Speaker 3: doesn't come from the barrel of a gun. But when

868
00:46:35,881 --> 00:46:39,801
Speaker 3: men who have differences with one another learn to live

869
00:46:39,881 --> 00:46:43,201
Speaker 3: with one another and settle their differences and find a

870
00:46:43,201 --> 00:46:46,761
Speaker 3: way of getting on with their own lives, these deaths

871
00:46:46,841 --> 00:46:51,481
Speaker 3: have to stop. Well. Now, a very famous journalist who's

872
00:46:51,561 --> 00:46:58,521
Speaker 3: got different reputation from different quarters, Andrew Bolt, around that time,

873
00:46:59,641 --> 00:47:02,001
Speaker 3: gave me a broadside in his column in The Herald

874
00:47:02,081 --> 00:47:05,681
Speaker 3: Sun saying that I wasn't preaching the gospel of these people.

875
00:47:05,721 --> 00:47:08,641
Speaker 3: I was getting up there and saying that Mara Gondala

876
00:47:08,761 --> 00:47:12,641
Speaker 3: would be welcomed at the Pearly Gates or something. So

877
00:47:12,961 --> 00:47:16,881
Speaker 3: I got Bolt's email and I sent him word for

878
00:47:16,921 --> 00:47:19,041
Speaker 3: word because I don't add lib. At those funerals, I

879
00:47:19,041 --> 00:47:21,521
Speaker 3: didn't add LIB. I had a script. They mightn't have

880
00:47:21,601 --> 00:47:23,321
Speaker 3: known that I had a script, but I was reading

881
00:47:23,361 --> 00:47:26,921
Speaker 3: it word for word without looking like I was reading

882
00:47:26,921 --> 00:47:30,161
Speaker 3: it because I knew what I wanted to say, and

883
00:47:30,201 --> 00:47:32,521
Speaker 3: I told him. I gave him exactly what I said,

884
00:47:32,561 --> 00:47:34,921
Speaker 3: and I said, if you say I'm not preaching the gospel,

885
00:47:35,081 --> 00:47:38,401
Speaker 3: just read the scripts of those couple of homilies that

886
00:47:38,481 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: I've given at recent funerals and tell me where I'm

887
00:47:40,961 --> 00:47:43,961
Speaker 3: not preaching the gospel. Didn't have the guts to reply,

888
00:47:44,841 --> 00:47:47,321
Speaker 3: and he didn't have a leg to stand on because

889
00:47:47,321 --> 00:47:49,841
Speaker 3: I knew exactly what I was doing, what I was saying.

890
00:47:50,721 --> 00:47:54,721
Speaker 3: And obviously you've got to be engaging, even at a funeral.

891
00:47:55,521 --> 00:47:58,361
Speaker 3: But there's no way I wasn't giving them the hard

892
00:47:58,401 --> 00:48:02,001
Speaker 3: word and challenging them. You were.

893
00:48:02,041 --> 00:48:03,281
Speaker 1: I remember that I was there that day.

894
00:48:03,441 --> 00:48:06,761
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I couldn't help but feel, knowing

895
00:48:06,841 --> 00:48:10,041
Speaker 2: your background of pantries prior to that, that there was

896
00:48:10,081 --> 00:48:13,361
Speaker 2: a sense of trust that had come from those quiet

897
00:48:13,441 --> 00:48:18,441
Speaker 2: moments behind bluestone walls, listening to people's lives, listen to

898
00:48:18,441 --> 00:48:21,841
Speaker 2: their struggles, and the empathy that gave you a bit

899
00:48:21,881 --> 00:48:23,801
Speaker 2: of license to tell the truth.

900
00:48:23,921 --> 00:48:26,201
Speaker 3: That's true. But even in that Church of Sagred Heart,

901
00:48:26,241 --> 00:48:29,801
Speaker 3: on the day of Graham Kinnerborough, the Monster's funeral, when

902
00:48:29,841 --> 00:48:32,281
Speaker 3: I came out with that key line, which was the

903
00:48:32,281 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 3: most confronting line in the homily, I could see two

904
00:48:36,641 --> 00:48:42,361
Speaker 3: three hundred heads drop. Everyone's head dropped because I'm telling

905
00:48:42,401 --> 00:48:45,361
Speaker 3: them put the guns away. That's got to be the

906
00:48:45,481 --> 00:48:45,881
Speaker 3: end of it.

907
00:48:46,921 --> 00:48:49,561
Speaker 2: There was some sort of crescendo was reached shortly after that.

908
00:48:49,681 --> 00:48:52,721
Speaker 2: I quoted that in my book Big Shots, that exact line,

909
00:48:52,881 --> 00:48:57,201
Speaker 2: and that you understood how high the stakes were. The

910
00:48:57,281 --> 00:49:00,801
Speaker 2: volume was being turned up, and eventually the thing was

911
00:49:00,841 --> 00:49:03,241
Speaker 2: that the cart and Crew weren't really firing back. They

912
00:49:03,241 --> 00:49:05,721
Speaker 2: were coming from a position a relative stream than affluence,

913
00:49:05,961 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: whereas the Western suburbs, people led by Carl Williams, were

914
00:49:09,041 --> 00:49:11,401
Speaker 2: trying to establish themselves and they had people there who.

915
00:49:11,241 --> 00:49:13,681
Speaker 1: Didn't mind dying in the process.

916
00:49:13,321 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 3: Of this well gun for hires. There was a lot

917
00:49:15,441 --> 00:49:18,361
Speaker 3: of young and even more, you know, semi burnt out

918
00:49:18,441 --> 00:49:21,841
Speaker 3: gangsters that were prepared to do the dirty work for

919
00:49:21,921 --> 00:49:24,801
Speaker 3: a price. And some of them are spending long, long

920
00:49:24,841 --> 00:49:27,321
Speaker 3: times in prison. Some of them have been knocked themselves.

921
00:49:27,641 --> 00:49:28,841
Speaker 3: He talked about Andrew Venyuman.

922
00:49:28,881 --> 00:49:31,881
Speaker 2: He'd come from a Greek Orthodox background, great Cypriet family

923
00:49:31,921 --> 00:49:34,921
Speaker 2: from Sunshine, and I went to attend his forty day

924
00:49:35,041 --> 00:49:39,601
Speaker 2: memorial after his funeral he died in early two thousand.

925
00:49:39,361 --> 00:49:43,121
Speaker 1: And four, and all the boys of an older boys

926
00:49:43,161 --> 00:49:46,001
Speaker 1: there and all these young gangsters. They had the spiritual background.

927
00:49:46,161 --> 00:49:49,241
Speaker 2: And I was speaking to the family, and they'd had

928
00:49:49,601 --> 00:49:52,321
Speaker 2: connection with their local clergy and things, and they growing

929
00:49:52,401 --> 00:49:56,121
Speaker 2: up in that environment. And Andrew had this view that

930
00:49:56,161 --> 00:49:59,521
Speaker 2: he was beyond the pale spiritual sense and that now

931
00:49:59,561 --> 00:50:01,161
Speaker 2: he was going to take down as many people as

932
00:50:01,161 --> 00:50:02,801
Speaker 2: he could because he was headed for hell.

933
00:50:04,001 --> 00:50:07,041
Speaker 3: Although when he was killed in the restaurant in Carlton,

934
00:50:07,401 --> 00:50:09,441
Speaker 3: he had a pair of rosary beads in his pocket,

935
00:50:09,801 --> 00:50:12,201
Speaker 3: just like Mario Kunda had a pair of rostary beads

936
00:50:12,241 --> 00:50:14,481
Speaker 3: in his pocket when he was gunned down outside his

937
00:50:14,641 --> 00:50:16,001
Speaker 3: home in Brighton.

938
00:50:16,041 --> 00:50:18,241
Speaker 2: So there's a strong spiritual connection and a sense of

939
00:50:18,801 --> 00:50:20,121
Speaker 2: heaven and hell going on here.

940
00:50:20,481 --> 00:50:23,121
Speaker 3: Well, it's as if there's two different worlds and those

941
00:50:23,121 --> 00:50:26,561
Speaker 3: two worlds interact with one another. And I would have

942
00:50:26,721 --> 00:50:30,361
Speaker 3: had the opportunity of seeing that more closely than most

943
00:50:31,321 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: clerical repers, the church representatives would have, but all of us,

944
00:50:35,561 --> 00:50:39,201
Speaker 3: you know, if there is a struggle between good and

945
00:50:39,281 --> 00:50:43,001
Speaker 3: evil and self centered and other scented ways of living,

946
00:50:43,481 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 3: it's a lifelong kind of journey, and no one gets

947
00:50:46,441 --> 00:50:47,561
Speaker 3: it completely sorted out.

948
00:50:47,561 --> 00:50:49,881
Speaker 2: I don't think not to get to the end. I

949
00:50:49,881 --> 00:50:54,241
Speaker 2: guess it all is revealed or nothing. That's two thousand

950
00:50:54,241 --> 00:50:57,041
Speaker 2: and three four. You completed your work at Pintrick by

951
00:50:57,081 --> 00:50:57,721
Speaker 2: the time, when.

952
00:50:57,561 --> 00:51:00,361
Speaker 3: Did you finish the pend nineteen ninety two. But from

953
00:51:00,401 --> 00:51:03,401
Speaker 3: then I ran this network that I set up Victorian

954
00:51:03,401 --> 00:51:06,001
Speaker 3: Criminal Justice Coalition for the next or fifteen years, and

955
00:51:06,041 --> 00:51:09,201
Speaker 3: we had sixty members, and that would be what's lacking

956
00:51:09,201 --> 00:51:12,321
Speaker 3: at the moment in Victoria around human rights. There's some

957
00:51:12,521 --> 00:51:15,881
Speaker 3: very good individual lawyers and legal advocates doing different things,

958
00:51:16,401 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 3: but we had a membership of sixty and we were

959
00:51:20,121 --> 00:51:23,561
Speaker 3: focused on what private prisons, which were just being introduced

960
00:51:23,561 --> 00:51:26,121
Speaker 3: by Jeffrey Kennett or the other parts of the country

961
00:51:26,761 --> 00:51:31,401
Speaker 3: police shootings. There were one stage fifteen shootings a year

962
00:51:31,441 --> 00:51:33,601
Speaker 3: and Victoria compared to about one or two in New

963
00:51:33,641 --> 00:51:36,801
Speaker 3: South Wales. We managed to help stop that because in

964
00:51:36,841 --> 00:51:39,441
Speaker 3: the end more people were being killed with mental illness

965
00:51:39,441 --> 00:51:43,201
Speaker 3: than with criminal records. And then police pursuit. So I mean,

966
00:51:43,241 --> 00:51:45,201
Speaker 3: we saw a pursuit the other day with a couple

967
00:51:45,201 --> 00:51:47,761
Speaker 3: of kids ended up in Burke Street. Again it was

968
00:51:47,761 --> 00:51:50,841
Speaker 3: a stolen car. Now, I don't think the police knew

969
00:51:50,841 --> 00:51:53,761
Speaker 3: that they'd done a serious crime before that, but there

970
00:51:53,761 --> 00:51:57,641
Speaker 3: were thirty plus thousand cars stolen in Victoria every year.

971
00:51:58,561 --> 00:52:01,241
Speaker 3: Ninety five percent of those found the next day with

972
00:52:01,281 --> 00:52:05,481
Speaker 3: an empty tank, not damaged and not having caused any injury.

973
00:52:06,321 --> 00:52:09,121
Speaker 3: But if there's a police pursuit on the risk of

974
00:52:09,321 --> 00:52:13,201
Speaker 3: injury to either the drivers or the car the police

975
00:52:13,201 --> 00:52:18,921
Speaker 3: officers themselves or independent bystanders has increased incredibly. So we

976
00:52:19,241 --> 00:52:22,521
Speaker 3: actually happened to change those the police pursuit policy. The

977
00:52:22,601 --> 00:52:26,401
Speaker 3: Association didn't like it at all, the use of firearms.

978
00:52:26,721 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 3: When I was doing the funeral for Colleen Richmond, who

979
00:52:29,481 --> 00:52:32,561
Speaker 3: was the last person killed at that time, she was

980
00:52:32,601 --> 00:52:35,321
Speaker 3: a young Couri woman who was shot dead by police

981
00:52:35,361 --> 00:52:40,121
Speaker 3: outside the Hanniba Welfare Services in Saint Kilda. She had

982
00:52:40,161 --> 00:52:43,241
Speaker 3: a little tomahawk and she was attacking the park bench

983
00:52:43,281 --> 00:52:46,361
Speaker 3: with this tiny hot tomahawk and the staff were worried

984
00:52:46,361 --> 00:52:49,321
Speaker 3: about her welfare and they called the police and two

985
00:52:49,401 --> 00:52:52,241
Speaker 3: young constables turned up, twenty twenty one year olds, and

986
00:52:52,281 --> 00:52:55,281
Speaker 3: they did what they were trained to do. They saw her,

987
00:52:55,401 --> 00:52:58,361
Speaker 3: they clearly called out, dropped the weapon, dropped the weapon,

988
00:52:58,481 --> 00:53:02,281
Speaker 3: and they repeated the warning. She was in a psychotic state,

989
00:53:03,081 --> 00:53:06,001
Speaker 3: she had disobeyed an order and they emptied the revolver

990
00:53:06,161 --> 00:53:09,601
Speaker 3: to her central body, as they were trained to do.

991
00:53:11,121 --> 00:53:13,841
Speaker 3: When I finished the service, we marched down Fitzroy Streets

992
00:53:13,841 --> 00:53:17,001
Speaker 3: and killed her in a big processions. Katani gardens out

993
00:53:17,521 --> 00:53:20,361
Speaker 3: and as were walking along, my mobile goes off and

994
00:53:20,401 --> 00:53:23,121
Speaker 3: who is it but Pat mcnamaro, the Deputy Premier, the

995
00:53:23,161 --> 00:53:25,441
Speaker 3: Minister for Police and Prisons, and he said, Peter, I

996
00:53:25,481 --> 00:53:28,001
Speaker 3: just wanted to let you know that we've had a

997
00:53:28,041 --> 00:53:32,321
Speaker 3: meeting earlier today and we've taken two important decisions, and

998
00:53:32,361 --> 00:53:35,681
Speaker 3: I wanted to tell you straight away that we're going

999
00:53:35,721 --> 00:53:40,481
Speaker 3: to retrain the police in the use of firearms and

1000
00:53:40,561 --> 00:53:43,001
Speaker 3: we're going to disarm the police, and only those who

1001
00:53:43,081 --> 00:53:46,601
Speaker 3: need to carry weapons will carry these weapons. So in

1002
00:53:46,641 --> 00:53:49,601
Speaker 3: other words, police at the MCG don't need to be armed.

1003
00:53:50,561 --> 00:53:54,121
Speaker 3: Maybe they've got someone in reserve who do. So. Come

1004
00:53:54,161 --> 00:53:56,281
Speaker 3: to Katana Gardens and I had to give a speech

1005
00:53:56,321 --> 00:54:00,041
Speaker 3: down there and a TV crewis ruled out. Five o'clock

1006
00:54:00,081 --> 00:54:02,561
Speaker 3: News Channel ten and the six o'clock news, seven and

1007
00:54:02,681 --> 00:54:05,481
Speaker 3: nine carried the story of what the police and the

1008
00:54:05,481 --> 00:54:09,001
Speaker 3: Deputy Premier told me. By the seven o'clock news, the

1009
00:54:09,121 --> 00:54:11,841
Speaker 3: union had worked on him so strongly that the idea

1010
00:54:12,081 --> 00:54:15,561
Speaker 3: of disarming the police had to be dropped and Pat

1011
00:54:15,641 --> 00:54:18,881
Speaker 3: McNamara had to compromise. He couldn't do it, but they

1012
00:54:18,881 --> 00:54:21,961
Speaker 3: did retrain the police in what was called Project Beacon.

1013
00:54:22,601 --> 00:54:24,841
Speaker 3: And the number of deaths that occurred in Victoria from

1014
00:54:24,881 --> 00:54:28,041
Speaker 3: police shootings, as I said, more people with mental illness

1015
00:54:28,041 --> 00:54:31,961
Speaker 3: in the last few years than criminals with records dropped

1016
00:54:32,161 --> 00:54:37,041
Speaker 3: down completely, almost completely, from about twelve fifteen a year

1017
00:54:37,081 --> 00:54:38,521
Speaker 3: to possibly one a year.

1018
00:54:40,001 --> 00:54:43,121
Speaker 2: This work and what you've been doing since reflects I

1019
00:54:43,161 --> 00:54:48,201
Speaker 2: guess that changing balance between the Jesuit priests who comes

1020
00:54:48,201 --> 00:54:51,441
Speaker 2: into the prisons with a social work background and the

1021
00:54:51,881 --> 00:54:55,321
Speaker 2: shift between spiritual and secular emphasis.

1022
00:54:55,761 --> 00:54:59,721
Speaker 1: In the end you leave the priesthood. Did that reflect

1023
00:55:00,001 --> 00:55:02,521
Speaker 1: your own journey or a loss of faith? All?

1024
00:55:03,081 --> 00:55:06,841
Speaker 3: Oh, well, it was I had forty years from the

1025
00:55:06,881 --> 00:55:09,881
Speaker 3: age of eighteen to fifty eight, and I felt that

1026
00:55:09,961 --> 00:55:14,681
Speaker 3: I'd made my contribution. But also when I was only

1027
00:55:14,961 --> 00:55:18,641
Speaker 3: a youngster, the church was at a dynamic stage of development.

1028
00:55:18,761 --> 00:55:22,241
Speaker 3: We had a most of your readers won't know what

1029
00:55:22,281 --> 00:55:24,961
Speaker 3: I'm talking about, but John the twenty third, who was

1030
00:55:24,961 --> 00:55:29,041
Speaker 3: a progressive pope, very pastoral, and it was a time

1031
00:55:29,081 --> 00:55:32,841
Speaker 3: of great engagement. The Jesuits had redefined their mission as

1032
00:55:32,841 --> 00:55:35,641
Speaker 3: the service of faith, of which the promotion of justice

1033
00:55:36,001 --> 00:55:39,921
Speaker 3: is an essential ingredient. So my opening a halfway house

1034
00:55:39,961 --> 00:55:42,761
Speaker 3: for ex prisoners rather than going teaching at Savia Colleage

1035
00:55:42,841 --> 00:55:47,041
Speaker 3: or Riverview in Sydney was a little expression of that.

1036
00:55:47,761 --> 00:55:50,041
Speaker 3: But over the next ten or twenty years we had

1037
00:55:50,041 --> 00:55:53,241
Speaker 3: a very conservative Polish Pope, John Paul the Second, and

1038
00:55:53,281 --> 00:55:56,801
Speaker 3: then an even more conservative pope in Benedict, and the

1039
00:55:56,921 --> 00:56:01,161
Speaker 3: church changed completely and it became far more conservative and

1040
00:56:01,241 --> 00:56:05,041
Speaker 3: far more centralized on Rome. And at the same time,

1041
00:56:05,241 --> 00:56:08,841
Speaker 3: the continued exclusion of women in the church and the

1042
00:56:09,321 --> 00:56:13,761
Speaker 3: most delicate of all the exposure of child sexual abuse

1043
00:56:13,841 --> 00:56:16,681
Speaker 3: within the church, for which the church was using lawyers

1044
00:56:16,721 --> 00:56:19,921
Speaker 3: to protect their own interests. So at the age of

1045
00:56:19,961 --> 00:56:23,281
Speaker 3: fifty eight, after forty years service, I decided I'd had

1046
00:56:23,361 --> 00:56:26,921
Speaker 3: enough and I had another career to pursue before it

1047
00:56:26,961 --> 00:56:30,961
Speaker 3: was too late. And that's the reason I left. Because

1048
00:56:31,841 --> 00:56:34,961
Speaker 3: I hadn't lost faith in Christianity. I'd lost faith in

1049
00:56:35,081 --> 00:56:38,601
Speaker 3: the leadership of the church and at a local level

1050
00:56:38,801 --> 00:56:41,761
Speaker 3: in Australia, the sorts of people who were being appointed

1051
00:56:41,761 --> 00:56:45,081
Speaker 3: as the senior leaders of the church were not people

1052
00:56:45,121 --> 00:56:49,041
Speaker 3: who had the support of mainstream Catholics. They had the

1053
00:56:49,081 --> 00:56:52,521
Speaker 3: support of very conservative elements like Oprah's stay in the

1054
00:56:52,641 --> 00:56:56,601
Speaker 3: Catholic Church. So I don't want to say more about

1055
00:56:56,641 --> 00:57:00,241
Speaker 3: it than that, but from that I then resigned. I

1056
00:57:00,281 --> 00:57:02,561
Speaker 3: was lucky to get an appointment from the Vice Chance

1057
00:57:02,601 --> 00:57:04,401
Speaker 3: that I was in the Melbourne Law School for three

1058
00:57:04,481 --> 00:57:09,161
Speaker 3: years on a professorial fellowship, and then I continued after

1059
00:57:09,201 --> 00:57:12,641
Speaker 3: that teaching at r MIT and legal studies and criminology

1060
00:57:12,681 --> 00:57:16,641
Speaker 3: and mental health and now at Deacon University in an

1061
00:57:16,881 --> 00:57:20,961
Speaker 3: honorary role in criminology. But no I left forty years

1062
00:57:21,041 --> 00:57:25,001
Speaker 3: service I thought was long enough and I had served

1063
00:57:25,041 --> 00:57:28,401
Speaker 3: my time, and I'm glad I made that move.

1064
00:57:29,641 --> 00:57:32,441
Speaker 2: You sacrificed a lot in your life for other people,

1065
00:57:32,801 --> 00:57:34,801
Speaker 2: and you were there for other people in a very

1066
00:57:34,841 --> 00:57:38,161
Speaker 2: turbulent era. Can you look back with a sense of

1067
00:57:38,161 --> 00:57:39,761
Speaker 2: satisfaction and contribution?

1068
00:57:40,201 --> 00:57:44,441
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, indeed. But it's amazing. Not that within myself, yes,

1069
00:57:44,481 --> 00:57:49,121
Speaker 3: but it's amazing people's memory. They wouldn't be aware that

1070
00:57:49,161 --> 00:57:52,121
Speaker 3: a chaplain could be an advocate and get away with it,

1071
00:57:52,841 --> 00:57:55,481
Speaker 3: you know, And I don't think that the church. But

1072
00:57:55,601 --> 00:57:58,321
Speaker 3: now we had quite a number of people working in

1073
00:57:58,361 --> 00:58:02,601
Speaker 3: prison chaplaincy from the Catholic prison ministry. Now there's part

1074
00:58:02,641 --> 00:58:05,041
Speaker 3: time priests who come in for two hours a week,

1075
00:58:06,121 --> 00:58:08,321
Speaker 3: and up until a few months ago there was an

1076
00:58:08,361 --> 00:58:11,721
Speaker 3: eighty five year old nun in charge and as twice

1077
00:58:11,761 --> 00:58:14,321
Speaker 3: as many, if not coming on to three times as

1078
00:58:14,321 --> 00:58:18,201
Speaker 3: many people in prison now as before. So the prison

1079
00:58:18,281 --> 00:58:21,721
Speaker 3: ministry is not about just saying mass and looking after

1080
00:58:21,761 --> 00:58:25,561
Speaker 3: people like that. It's about being a presence a voice

1081
00:58:25,601 --> 00:58:29,041
Speaker 3: of conscience in the institution as well. But to do that,

1082
00:58:29,081 --> 00:58:31,081
Speaker 3: you can't do it on a part time basis. You've

1083
00:58:31,081 --> 00:58:34,201
Speaker 3: got to be pretty heavily involved and engaged.

1084
00:58:38,761 --> 00:58:42,761
Speaker 2: That was Peter Norden, former Penridge Prison chaplain. In a

1085
00:58:42,801 --> 00:58:46,361
Speaker 2: world where inmates find themselves shunned by society and without

1086
00:58:46,361 --> 00:58:50,201
Speaker 2: a voice, his insights into life behind bars remain as

1087
00:58:50,241 --> 00:58:53,241
Speaker 2: fresh and relevant as when he first entered Pentridge in

1088
00:58:53,281 --> 00:58:57,201
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. It's easy to demand the longer sentences

1089
00:58:57,201 --> 00:59:01,041
Speaker 2: and more brutal prisons as a solution to crime, but

1090
00:59:01,121 --> 00:59:04,761
Speaker 2: remember almost all of these inmates will eventually come back

1091
00:59:04,761 --> 00:59:07,561
Speaker 2: into society and we'll have to deal with them again.

1092
00:59:08,641 --> 00:59:11,081
Speaker 2: If you have some information that could help solve the crime,

1093
00:59:11,441 --> 00:59:14,921
Speaker 2: please call Crime Stoppers on one eight hundred triple three,

1094
00:59:15,161 --> 00:59:20,001
Speaker 2: triple zero, or email me on Adam Shann writer at

1095
00:59:20,081 --> 00:59:24,081
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. This has been real crime with me

1096
00:59:24,241 --> 00:59:26,161
Speaker 2: Adam Shanned. Thanks for listening.