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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday, February twenty eight. Elective surgery and emergency department

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Speaker 1: waiting times are stuck at COVID levels, and public hospitals

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Speaker 1: are struggling to cater for Australians over sixty five. That's

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Speaker 1: the damning report card from the Australian Medical Association. An

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Speaker 1: Iranian immigrant who killed his wife and then tried to

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Speaker 1: dispose of her body with acid is fighting Labour's attempts

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Speaker 1: to deport him to Nauru. Tony Kelissar was convicted of

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Speaker 1: a calculated and premeditated murder in nineteen ninety seven and

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Speaker 1: were sentenced to twenty two years in prison, but now

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Speaker 1: his lawyers have won a bid to stall his deportation.

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Speaker 1: Those stories alive now at the Australian dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: Momentum is bible building around The Australian's blockbuster investigative podcast

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn about the unsolved disappearance of mother Bromwyn Winfield. On

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Speaker 1: Thursday night in Sydney, the podcast team gathered with listeners

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Speaker 1: to record a special episode of the podcast, and today

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Speaker 1: we've got a sneak peek for you behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: with Headley Thomas, Bromwin's family and the teen. Less than

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Speaker 1: a year ago, The Australian launched a new Headley Thomas podcast, Bromwyn.

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Speaker 1: It tells the story of Bromwyn Winfield, a thirty one

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Speaker 1: year old mum who disappeared from Lennox Head in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. Very early on into the investigation, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of worrying similarities between this case and the

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Speaker 1: one we'd covered in Headley's podcast, The Teacher's Pet. That

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Speaker 1: was the story of another missing woman, which led to

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Speaker 1: the eventual arrest, charge and murder conviction of its subject,

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Speaker 1: Christopher Michael Dawson. When Headley Thomas set out to investigate

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of Bromwyn, he thought it would be a

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Speaker 1: short series, maybe seven or eight episodes, but the story

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Speaker 1: keeps getting bigger, curlier and more concerning. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the questions about what happened to Bromwyn revolve around one figure,

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Speaker 1: John Winfield, Bromwin's husband at the time. He has always

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Speaker 1: denied any wrongdoing. Since the podcast was released, it's been

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Speaker 1: listened to more than seven million times around the world

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Speaker 1: and has led to a lot of revelations. Some of

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Speaker 1: those have come from the public, listeners and people who

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Speaker 1: knew Bromwin personally. Early on, there was the witness who

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Speaker 1: saw John Winfield driving with what looked like a human body,

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Speaker 1: according to her allegation, in the back of the family's

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Speaker 1: Ford Falcon on the night Bromwin vanished.

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Speaker 2: And this night I was sitting out now I could

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Speaker 2: see directly into the car and I saw this what

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Speaker 2: looked to be like a mummy in the back of

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Speaker 2: the car, and I thought, well, if he was taking

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Speaker 2: out belongings, you wouldn't make it look like a body,

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Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: And then there was the discovery of John Winfield's secret daughter.

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Speaker 3: The first time I ever saw his face was on

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Speaker 3: the front page of the Australian.

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Speaker 4: He'll never be my father, will never be mates.

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Speaker 3: We'll never sit down and have a coppet together.

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Speaker 5: I'll never break bread with him, purely.

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Speaker 3: Because my grandmother would be disgusted in me if I did.

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Speaker 1: We also learned his former wife, Jenny Mason, alleged John

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Speaker 1: Winfield had been aggressive and abusive. A voice actor is

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Speaker 1: reading part of her statement.

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Speaker 6: I recall on one occasion when he pushed me back

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Speaker 6: onto the bed because answers back to him on that time.

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Speaker 6: He scared me a great deal. He said to me,

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Speaker 6: I'll kill you if you say that again, and at

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Speaker 6: the time he had his hands around my throat and

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Speaker 6: was squeezing.

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Speaker 1: The dogged coverage of this case has prompted renewed interest

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Speaker 1: from police and a story which was meant to be

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Speaker 1: a few episodes is now entering season three. So what

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Speaker 1: does an investigation like this take, where's it heading the

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Speaker 1: next and are the police taking it seriously? Those were

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Speaker 1: the topics under discussion with me Headley Thomas, the Australian's

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Speaker 1: National Crime correspondent, David Murray, senior reporter Matthew Condon, and

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's cousin Mattie Walsh. Today on the front we're bringing

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Speaker 1: you some of that conversation and to hear the whole

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Speaker 1: hour and a half, join our subscribers at bromwyn podcast

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Speaker 1: dot com. We'll be releasing a special episode of bromwn

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Speaker 1: on Friday night with the whole evening's conversation. Headley getting

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Speaker 1: to the big question first, why do you think when

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago the police went to the coroner the

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Speaker 1: coroner went to the DPP.

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Speaker 7: Was laid. Yeah, so you know, we had a situation

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Speaker 7: in two thousand and two after the coroner recommended a

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Speaker 7: murder charge that the decision was made I think, initially

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Speaker 7: in a regional office in northern New South Wales that

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Speaker 7: there would be no prosecution. And it seems at first

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Speaker 7: unfathomable why after so much work, with such a compelling,

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Speaker 7: circumstantial case, wouldn't you put it before a jury. It's

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Speaker 7: not to say that the accused is guilty, just that

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Speaker 7: there should be a determination. And you know, I've thought

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Speaker 7: about this deeply over the years since I've heard about

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Speaker 7: Bromin's case and since I've been talking to Andy Reid

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Speaker 7: and reading the evidence, and all I can come up

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Speaker 7: with is human error. I believe that the system, clearly

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Speaker 7: and quite obviously, in this case and in others that

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Speaker 7: I've been involved in, fails to grasp what most people

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Speaker 7: who can step back and look at all of the

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Speaker 7: evidence can see. That there is a strong prema facy

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Speaker 7: case and that as the coroner, a very experienced judicial officer, recommended,

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Speaker 7: it should have been prosecuted. And the coroner doesn't make

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Speaker 7: a decision like that lightly he has to satisfy under

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Speaker 7: the Coroner's Act a certain test. That is that, in

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Speaker 7: his view, a jury would be likely to find beyond

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Speaker 7: reasonable doubt that the known person would be found guilty.

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Speaker 7: And that's an important bar. It's not a balance of

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Speaker 7: probabilities test. It's a strict legal test at the higher level.

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Speaker 7: So it's our job in journalism and with these podcasts

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Speaker 7: to try to re ignite these cases, to refresh them,

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Speaker 7: because the families don't have anyone else. After the police

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Speaker 7: have tried and failed or the DPPs said well we're

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Speaker 7: not going to take this forward, the families then go

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Speaker 7: back and say, well, where do we go from here?

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Speaker 7: And I think that police, even cold case teams, unsolved

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Speaker 7: homicide units, which are a more recent innovation, they struggled

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Speaker 7: because they've got limited resources and a huge number of

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Speaker 7: these cases that didn't go forward, or cases that didn't

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Speaker 7: even get to the stage of a brief of evidence.

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Speaker 7: And so we have the opportunity with the resources that

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Speaker 7: the Australian makes available, with the goodwill of the listenership

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Speaker 7: and the help of people who want to volunteer their

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Speaker 7: time and people like Maddie down the front here we

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Speaker 7: have the opportunity to make a difference and find new evidence,

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Speaker 7: new witnesses. We hope that something gets done. All we

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Speaker 7: can promise Andy and Michelle and Caitlin and all of

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Speaker 7: the Reed family is that we'll keep trying. We'll keep

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Speaker 7: trying to find new evidence. And it's not our job

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Speaker 7: to directly pressure the DPP or the police. They have

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Speaker 7: to do their job independently. But we believe that with

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Speaker 7: the weight of the evidence that comes out, we hope

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Speaker 7: that it gets to a tipping point where skilled prosecutors say, well,

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Speaker 7: this is more than enough, we can make something of this.

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Speaker 1: Dave, what do you think the delay in this case

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Speaker 1: has done to it? You know, the fact that charges

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Speaker 1: were not laid in two thousand and two when the

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Speaker 1: coroner recommended that they should be, and of course John

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Speaker 1: Winfield denies any wrongdoing and that is yet to be

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Speaker 1: tested in any kind of court. We've seen a significant

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Speaker 1: delay there. In a very separate matter, Chris Dawson is

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Speaker 1: still pursuing his right to appeal. He's now telling the

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Speaker 1: High Court that because of delays and what is called

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Speaker 1: forensic disadvantage in the legal system, he can't get a

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Speaker 1: fair troll. He couldn't get a fair troll because police

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Speaker 1: delayed for so long. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, we're eagerly awaiting that decision of Cryst Wilson's appeal.

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Speaker 5: I know that delay was cited in the letter that

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Speaker 5: Nicholas Cajurey the DPP way back at the time of

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Speaker 5: the inquest, when he wrote to Andy Reid. You know,

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Speaker 5: he from memory cited the delay and the initial investigation

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Speaker 5: before it was taken up and investigated really thoroughly for

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Speaker 5: the first time. That was twenty plus years ago, so

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Speaker 5: we're further down the track. I think we've seen that

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Speaker 5: these cases still are solvable even though there is a delay.

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Speaker 5: It might be a barrier, but it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 5: they can't be solved. It was solved in Linn's case,

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Speaker 5: it was solved in other cases, and this was all

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Speaker 5: happening at the time of the lindaws An investigation. So

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Speaker 5: these cases can still be solved even though there is

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Speaker 5: a delay.

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Speaker 1: Coming up. More from our special Bromwin recording. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back after this break, all right now. Joining me on

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Speaker 1: stage once again, of course, is Headley Thomas. Next to

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Speaker 1: him is Mattie Walsh, Bromwyn Winfield's cousin and an invaluable

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Speaker 1: member of the team on this podcast. And next to

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Speaker 1: Mattie is Matthew Condon, who is one of Australia's greatest journalists.

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Speaker 1: Matt is such a beautiful writer and such a beautiful speaker,

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Speaker 1: and so Matt no pressure, but I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about Bromwin. She is, of course the subject of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and we haven't really talked about her a lot tonight.

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Speaker 1: But when we first began this project and Headley was

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Speaker 1: working away very hard on the audio, Matt, I asked

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Speaker 1: you to write the feature that we would publish to

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Speaker 1: kind of kick off this story in the paper, and

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Speaker 1: you dug through Bromin's writings. What sort of person emerged

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Speaker 1: in those diaries and letters that you read.

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Speaker 8: My first introduction to Bronwin was her writing. And I

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Speaker 8: read it very carefully, and I read it over and over,

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Speaker 8: and it was very poignant and very touching, and I

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Speaker 8: tried to find the woman behind the words. And you know,

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Speaker 8: these peripheral judgments may be wrong Andy her brother, but

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Speaker 8: I sensed a very loving human being, a very dedicated mother.

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Speaker 8: I sensed a woman who was trying to make the

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Speaker 8: most of a very difficult personal situation. I got the

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Speaker 8: sense that she was psychologically and physically in a vice

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Speaker 8: and that she was trying to express herself. And at

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Speaker 8: the end of those writings, she's very positive and she says,

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Speaker 8: I'm looking forward. I'm going to move forward positively with this.

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Speaker 8: So I saw a woman who had an enormous amount

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Speaker 8: to give, but it was falling on fallow ground and

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Speaker 8: she was in a very awkward scenario.

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Speaker 1: She wrote beautifully, didn't she She.

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Speaker 8: Did write beautifully, and she wrote, to my mind, very honestly.

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Speaker 8: She didn't hold back in terms of her emotions, which

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Speaker 8: was another for me, a key insight into the sort

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Speaker 8: of person that she would have been. To my mind,

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Speaker 8: I would have loved to have met her, you know,

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Speaker 8: just one of those straight up people, a lot of

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Speaker 8: love to give, but was in a despicable situation near

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Speaker 8: the end that she was trying to find a way

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Speaker 8: out of. And the writing reflects that she's trying to

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Speaker 8: keep it together and move forward in a positive way.

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Speaker 1: Maddie, in your family's life and and you're growing up,

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Speaker 1: what did you know about Bromwin.

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Speaker 3: Despite never meeting her, I knew that she had the

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Speaker 3: biggest heart.

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Speaker 5: She cared for.

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Speaker 3: Everyone around her no matter what, and her devotion to

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Speaker 3: her kids was like none other. She would have never

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Speaker 3: left her kids, and she loved everyone around her. She

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Speaker 3: was positive, happy, and just a really kind soul. She

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Speaker 3: just wanted to make a great life for her kids.

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Speaker 3: You can tell that through her writings, you can tell

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Speaker 3: that through you know, her relationships with her family. And

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Speaker 3: it's really kind of confronting to realize that, you know,

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Speaker 3: she was close in age to me, and she was

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Speaker 3: going through something that was normalized back then. It was

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Speaker 3: you were told, you know, just to suck it up

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Speaker 3: and keep going. And to know that when now in

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Speaker 3: this situation thirty one years later, it is is so

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Speaker 3: hard to fout them because there are still so many

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Speaker 3: people in that kind of situation.

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Speaker 4: I just want to ask, where are the police in

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Speaker 4: all of this. We find it very frustrating that all

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Speaker 4: this evidence is coming out and yet there's only just

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Speaker 4: in the last episode there was a little mention of

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Speaker 4: the police looking into something, but apart from that, the

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Speaker 4: police seemed to be not there.

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Speaker 5: Thank you great much.

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Speaker 7: Thank you. The police who had been doing a big

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Speaker 7: review of Romin's case told Andy in I think early

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Speaker 7: May last year, that following their review, they didn't believe

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Speaker 7: that they could take this case any further, that they'd

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Speaker 7: been knocked back by the DPP before and that they'd

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Speaker 7: run out of leads and angles and evidence. Now what's

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Speaker 7: happened as a result of the podcast is more leads

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Speaker 7: and angles and evidence and witnesses have come to light,

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Speaker 7: and as a result, the police have been doing more work.

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Speaker 7: What is a bit frustrating is and I'll speak briefly

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Speaker 7: for Andy here because I think I know from everything

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Speaker 7: he's told me, he feels that he is the last

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Speaker 7: person to know anything that's going on. The police won't

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Speaker 7: share with us or anyone else in the podcast team

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Speaker 7: what they're doing, and I totally understand that they don't

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Speaker 7: need to. They would have serious trust issues that it

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Speaker 7: would end up in episode twenty four, and so that's

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Speaker 7: absolutely fine. But I think that there's got to be

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Speaker 7: a balance struck between them being able to do their

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Speaker 7: job effectively and us being able to do our job independently.

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Speaker 7: But they're being a better way for them to jump

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Speaker 7: onto evidence that could make a difference. They can always

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Speaker 7: ask at the first opportunity for anything that they believe

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Speaker 7: could help their investigation, they only have to pick up

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Speaker 7: the phone. But in this investigation, it's just struck me

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Speaker 7: that there has been a very deep reluctance of police

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Speaker 7: to be as proactive in going after the relevant and

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Speaker 7: I believe important information. And that's really disappointing for everybody

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Speaker 7: who wants to see a result here. And I know

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Speaker 7: it's incredibly disappointing for Andy and Michelle because they know

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Speaker 7: how sometimes this information is just coming up out of

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Speaker 7: the blue and how willing we are.

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Speaker 5: To share it.

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Speaker 2: I just added to it.

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Speaker 5: I caught up with Andy yesterday for a news story

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Speaker 5: for them for the paper, and he reminded me of

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Speaker 5: what the former New South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller

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Speaker 5: said after the Teacher's Patty. He said, and this is

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Speaker 5: when Chris Wilson had been convicted. He said, this is

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Speaker 5: the most powerful investigative tool I've ever seen for an

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Speaker 5: experienced policeman like that to say that, you know, things

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Speaker 5: are still pretty new for police back then, but we're

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Speaker 5: now at a stage with these podcast investigations that I

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Speaker 5: think police should be, you know, know what to do now.

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Speaker 5: They should have a plan. It should be on the

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Speaker 5: front foot, and they should see it as an opportunity

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Speaker 5: because it's not something they can stop out. It's beyond

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Speaker 5: their control and they should just be trying to get

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Speaker 5: They should be ready to get all the evidence that

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Speaker 5: they can because I'll never get a better opportunity to

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Speaker 5: get new evidence then if it's taken up on a

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Speaker 5: global platform like that.

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Speaker 1: Come to Bromwin podcast dot com for a special new

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Speaker 1: episode of broman on Friday night. And if you like

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Speaker 1: this kind of forensic investigative journalism, you'll love everything else

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