Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Garry jubilin here. I've got some sad
Speaker 1: news over the weekend. Former Eye Catch Killers guest and
Speaker 1: footy star Andrew Crackett passed away. I was fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to meet Andrew a couple of years ago, and I
Speaker 1: got to say I was impressed by the person that
Speaker 1: he was. He went through some good times and bad times.
Speaker 1: He was an AFL star who played one hundred and
Speaker 1: thirty seven games for Richmond and Collingwood football clubs. But
Speaker 1: what impressed me about Andrew was what he was giving
Speaker 1: back to society. He had some tough times, but he
Speaker 1: was such a great role model and he's going to
Speaker 1: be sadly missed. So remember Andrew. We thought we'd re
Speaker 1: release this episode we recorded with him in Melbourne last year.
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking in the public endo the world in which
Speaker 1: I operated.
Speaker 2: The guests I talk to.
Speaker 1: Each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.
Speaker 1: The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people
Speaker 1: I talk to. Some of the content and language might
Speaker 1: be confronting. That's because no one who comes in the
Speaker 1: contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as
Speaker 1: I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode
Speaker 1: of I Catchkillers. This episode is brought to you by
Speaker 1: Corrections Victoria. Today, we're going to have a look into
Speaker 1: life behind the prison walls from both sides. Over the
Speaker 1: next couple of weeks, we'll talk to AFL star Andrew Cracker,
Speaker 1: who found himself locked behind bars at the height of
Speaker 1: his football career. It was in two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: the former Collingwood and Richmond player was found guilty of
Speaker 1: assaulting a man outside of nightclub. He was sentenced to
Speaker 1: thirty two months imprisonment for the offense. Andrew used his
Speaker 1: time in prison to work on himself, and that led
Speaker 1: to him being granted day release from prison. Now on
Speaker 1: the outside of the prison walls, Andrew is helping others
Speaker 1: by sharing his story. With the help of Corrections Victoria,
Speaker 1: we'll also be talking to Clint Walker, an Aboriginal well
Speaker 1: been officer from barw And Prison, and Kylie Davey as
Speaker 1: soon your prison officer at Louden Prison. All three have
Speaker 1: fascinating stories to tell and provide an insight into a
Speaker 1: world few of us get to see. Andrew Cracker, Welcome
Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks Garry, thanks for having me. Mate.
Speaker 1: You've had a You've had a pretty interesting life. You've
Speaker 1: you know, you've reached the dizzy heights of AFL player
Speaker 1: and professional sportsman. You've done time in prison, you're hosting
Speaker 1: the TV show, you're the father of four daughters. You've
Speaker 1: got you've had some highs and lowers. How's life for
Speaker 1: you at the moment.
Speaker 2: It's life's good. Lofe's good, certainly, certainly plenty of ups
Speaker 2: and downs and reading reading out sort of how my
Speaker 2: life sort of panned out. It's that it is a
Speaker 2: fair there's a fevid that's happened in there, you know,
Speaker 2: probably the biggest greatest achievement of mine. Of the four girls,
Speaker 2: so that they're they're all going well to out home
Speaker 2: and living their own lives. One of the girls are
Speaker 2: married and the two young ones at home, so they
Speaker 2: certainly keep me on my toes. But yeah, looking back
Speaker 2: on the AFL career and how I was involved in
Speaker 2: two great clubs in Richmond and Collingwood and almost almost
Speaker 2: a part of a Grand final, but the Cats are
Speaker 2: too good in twenty eleven. But to be able to
Speaker 2: look back, and you know, obviously there's a fair bit
Speaker 2: to go still in my journey and my story, but
Speaker 2: thus far to look back, there's a lot of achievements
Speaker 2: I'm pretty proud of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you look at that way, and we're
Speaker 1: obviously we're going to talk about your time in prison,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that can break a lot of people, and
Speaker 1: it's good that you can come through it. Your life
Speaker 1: is about having highs and layers, and you've certainly I
Speaker 1: can only imagine what it's like to be a professional
Speaker 1: sportsman with fifty thousand people cheering you on and you're
Speaker 1: taking a mark or whatever, and then you're having the
Speaker 1: prison door locked and you're inside. That is the highs
Speaker 1: and layers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, one week you're running out in
Speaker 2: front of sixty seventy thousand at the mcg and as
Speaker 2: you said, having a or when you take a take
Speaker 2: a mark or kick anice goal or do a rundown tackle,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you're running out and
Speaker 2: playing footy at in prison and there's not too many
Speaker 2: and there's not too many rules as well. So and
Speaker 2: hearing you know that first night, you know, with the
Speaker 2: door slamming, was a reality and a really real wake
Speaker 2: up call to understand the situation where I was in
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of dynamics involved in that.
Speaker 2: But then to realize you know that through my actions,
Speaker 2: you know where I was and what was going to
Speaker 2: be home for the next sixteen months at least. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think unless you've actually been to
Speaker 1: prison you can fully appreciate the impact that has just
Speaker 1: the fact and not even if you don't make it
Speaker 1: that far in prison, if you've been under arrest, having
Speaker 1: someone else tell you what to do when you can
Speaker 1: do it, that type of things, it's confronting, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It certainly is Kerry. You think about as a as
Speaker 2: an AFL player, you rock up and your schedules there
Speaker 2: in front of you. You just need to rock up and
Speaker 2: do what you need to do. Your weight, so you've
Speaker 2: got a dietisian to help you to sort of keep
Speaker 2: you on track, and so your body is in the
Speaker 2: right neck to be able to perform at an elite level.
Speaker 2: So everything's at your fingertips, and then all of a
Speaker 2: sudden you're in the justice space and in the justice system,
Speaker 2: and you're getting told what to do, when to do,
Speaker 2: how to do it, when you can talk to your family,
Speaker 2: how long you can see them for. So it is
Speaker 2: a wake up call, and it's a roode shock to
Speaker 2: the system, and certainly one that took me a little
Speaker 2: bit to get used to. But you know, I look
Speaker 2: back on it now and think things you take for
Speaker 2: granted to go to the shop, go and get a coffee,
Speaker 2: go and give you kiss, give your kids a kiss
Speaker 2: good night, and wake up with them in the morning.
Speaker 2: Those things you probably take for granted, and then you
Speaker 2: don't realize how important they are to you and how
Speaker 2: much they mean to you until they're taken away.
Speaker 1: In a sort of strange way, having that experience in
Speaker 1: prison puts the rest of it in perspective, doesn't it
Speaker 1: that you need to be appreciative of those little moments
Speaker 1: that you've just described.
Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent, it does. It's you know, as
Speaker 2: I said, my personal story. You know, I'm speaking my
Speaker 2: own journey, you know, being an AFL player and then
Speaker 2: also being in the prison system. You just you know,
Speaker 2: the little things that you do take for granted, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you get those freedoms back,
Speaker 2: you get your own freedom back, and you know, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you're allowed to you probably look
Speaker 2: over your shoulder a little bit once you get out,
Speaker 2: and then thinking, you know what I must do, and
Speaker 2: here I've usually got people looking over my shoulder. But
Speaker 2: then you've got your own freedom back, so and then
Speaker 2: you realize how important that is. And as you said,
Speaker 2: to be able to take my little ones to school
Speaker 2: and pick them up, and it was certainly an eye opener.
Speaker 2: And you know, something I've never taken for granted granted
Speaker 2: after that experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to go right through the experience. I
Speaker 1: want to hear what it's like and the things that
Speaker 1: kept you pointed when you hit the let's call it
Speaker 1: rock by them. I think you can call it rock
Speaker 1: by them if you're locked up in prison. But you
Speaker 1: managed to turn that around the news it in a positive,
Speaker 1: a positive sense. I want to talk about that. But
Speaker 1: let's find out a little bit more about you before
Speaker 1: we take you into prison. So where were you born?
Speaker 1: What's your backstory?
Speaker 2: I was born here in Nam is the Aboriginal word
Speaker 2: for Melbourne. So born here in arm and my country
Speaker 2: over in West Australia is Borlu. So when I do
Speaker 2: try to refer to these terms, I'd like to be
Speaker 2: able to use that that Aboriginal language, because growing up
Speaker 2: I didn't use it too much. So Nam is here
Speaker 2: in Melbourne. I'm a proud menang Nunga and Ingra Yamiji man.
Speaker 2: So the area of menang Nungo is the great southern
Speaker 2: of Western Australia. Mount Barker for about four hundred k's
Speaker 2: south of Perth and Canarvin is where Yamaji people are from.
Speaker 2: My mother's mob from aver in Perth as well, so,
Speaker 2: which is about nine hundred to one thousand k's north
Speaker 2: of Perth. So but then born here in Aram because
Speaker 2: Dad was playing for North Melbourne at the time.
Speaker 1: Right, So your father was a bit of a legend
Speaker 1: of a football player.
Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't too bad. He as a young fellow.
Speaker 2: I just went to the crash and I didn't really
Speaker 2: see him play too much. Footy and I was there
Speaker 2: with my went to the crashy with my other cousins,
Speaker 2: Uncle Phil, he was played footy with Dad as well.
Speaker 2: So but I didn't realize actually how good they were
Speaker 2: in I'm not being a bit biased because they're my
Speaker 2: father and but just the impact that they had in
Speaker 2: the Trailblazers and pioneers they were, especially with First Nations
Speaker 2: people playing VFL football at that time, there was just
Speaker 2: a handful. You look at it, you look at it
Speaker 2: these days and how many are in the system now.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, you've got players left, right and
Speaker 2: center and over, probably one hundred players in the AFL space,
Speaker 2: So it's absolutely huge. And you think about you know,
Speaker 2: guys like the late Morris Rowley rest in peace, Michael McLean,
Speaker 2: Robbie Muller at St. Kilder as well, and Dad and
Speaker 2: Uncle Phil being a part of that, you know, to
Speaker 2: be able to help and support young people coming through
Speaker 2: the system and realize how good, how my bar and
Speaker 2: they do deserve to be in that space. So it's yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how good they were until I was
Speaker 2: a little bit older and I could see some highlights myself.
Speaker 1: I suppose that's that's the fact you grew up with it.
Speaker 1: I thought everyone's dad played for for fl You know,
Speaker 1: you didn't didn't fully appreciate it. So when did you
Speaker 1: get into football? When did football become a part of
Speaker 1: part of your life?
Speaker 2: Ten years old? I think I played for the Glady
Speaker 2: Park Cooker Boroughs, so they were a red jumper with
Speaker 2: the blue stripe across the front. Lived in Gladston Park
Speaker 2: and grew up there with my younger brother and two
Speaker 2: older sisters and mums. So yeah, at a young age,
Speaker 2: you know, I really loved, loved my footy. So that's
Speaker 2: that's my first experiences and happened. It happened to be okay,
Speaker 2: and one a few trophies, and but more importantly I
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. It was it was a lot of fun, okay.
Speaker 1: And where where did you Where did you think that
Speaker 1: you're going to make a career Did you ever envisage
Speaker 1: that you'd make a career playing football? Or you just
Speaker 1: playing because you love chasing the ball around and tackling
Speaker 1: and having some fun.
Speaker 2: It was the letter, It certainly was the letter. It
Speaker 2: wasn't an ambition of mine to try to follow dad
Speaker 2: football foot steps as I said, I didn't really know
Speaker 2: the kind of impact and the dance he had in
Speaker 2: the in the game in the VFL, so I just
Speaker 2: liked it. My mates were doing it and I happened
Speaker 2: to be okay at it. So I was never ever thought, well,
Speaker 2: I want to play AFL one day. I grew up
Speaker 2: barracking for North Melbourne, Wayne Wayne Kerry, Garryabler for Geelong
Speaker 2: and guys. I loved watching Winston Abraham is another nong
Speaker 2: A man from Wa that I loved how he went
Speaker 2: about it. He was really flashy, kicked really good goals,
Speaker 2: took nice marks. But it wasn't you know. I just
Speaker 2: liked it because my Mason playing it and it was
Speaker 2: fun fair enough.
Speaker 1: But you did take you back to Western Australia at
Speaker 1: one stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it certainly did. So that sort of went
Speaker 2: through my junior stage. So we're talking about once I
Speaker 2: got into the AFL system.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jared Neisham the first Doctor's coach, is it.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, so through so through my teenage years
Speaker 2: I lived down near koobl Up and Hammi Hill and
Speaker 2: spent a fair bit of time around there and Jared
Speaker 2: Neisham when I went to Clontaft Academy. So that was
Speaker 2: the initial the first year and obviously we've known anyone
Speaker 2: who knows about Clontaft. Now it's a national program and
Speaker 2: it's doing really well at the moment. So first first
Speaker 2: year of Clontaft there was probably a thirty thousand dollar budget.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a first time I was going
Speaker 2: to go and be involved in the school with all
Speaker 2: average First Nations kids. So that was enticing and something
Speaker 2: that wanted me. I wanted to go and be a
Speaker 2: part of that.
Speaker 1: Brok just on that I read in prepping for the
Speaker 1: podcast that that was the first time year the experience
Speaker 1: a school with all Indigenous children.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct.
Speaker 1: Did that give you a sense of sense of belonging?
Speaker 1: Does that change your outlook on things?
Speaker 2: I think it did. I think because most schools I
Speaker 2: went to was obviously you know, I had non Indigenous
Speaker 2: and all different races and a diverse communities within those
Speaker 2: schools and there so it was really Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: I just that sense of belonging at I really enjoyed
Speaker 2: going to the school and meeting meeting guys from different
Speaker 2: areas and then sort of trying to make those connections.
Speaker 2: Do his First Nations people. We you meet him, he's
Speaker 2: asking what the last name is, and then you try
Speaker 2: to make a connection or who's your mob, where you're
Speaker 2: from you know? Or do you know this person or
Speaker 2: that person? And a lot of the guys we had
Speaker 2: a connection somehow, first or second degree to be able
Speaker 2: to be connected somehow, So it was it was great.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. And I think Jared with his
Speaker 2: being the inaugural coach for the Dockers, and he had
Speaker 2: a fair few Indigenous First Nations boys in the in
Speaker 2: his team as well when he Abraham was there, young
Speaker 2: Arthur Taylor, you know, Scotty Chisholm, Gary, the Durkue Rest
Speaker 2: in Peace. There was a lot a lot of great
Speaker 2: young players there. So for Jered to be able to
Speaker 2: have that connection and then to be able to come
Speaker 2: back and want to support young people coming through the
Speaker 2: education system and using football as a vehicle to keep
Speaker 2: us engaged in school and making sure that if we're
Speaker 2: not doing the right things in class, we can't be
Speaker 2: part of the program.
Speaker 1: He was a really good role model to a lot
Speaker 1: of How important do you think that is? So I
Speaker 1: think that's a good a good thing to instill in
Speaker 1: someone that you know, if you're not doing well in school,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be part of the football set up.
Speaker 1: Is that important?
Speaker 2: I think it's a It is a great initiative, but
Speaker 2: you know, if you're if you're if you're struggling on
Speaker 2: the academic side, you may not think so, but you know,
Speaker 2: you need to be able to make sure that your
Speaker 2: your education is at a space where you can you know,
Speaker 2: you can do well for yourself. You can try to
Speaker 2: set yourself up and be successful. Whatever that looks like.
Speaker 2: Successful looks different to different people, so you know, what
Speaker 2: someone sees its success, it might not be for someone else.
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's at the different journey within their lives.
Speaker 2: So I think it was just it was great to
Speaker 2: make sure that, you know, we had an accountability as well. Yes,
Speaker 2: we were good footballers and we were part of a
Speaker 2: really good program, but that's not what we're here for.
Speaker 2: We were here to help you and support you and
Speaker 2: to set you up for life after school. So education
Speaker 2: is important. Yes, football is great, and you're going to
Speaker 2: learn some great things and morals and value through football,
Speaker 2: but we need to be able to find that balance
Speaker 2: and connected too. So I thought it was a great initiative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think people are starting to understand that
Speaker 1: some of the on Sydney base. So it's more the
Speaker 1: NRL type coaches and sport that is followed up there,
Speaker 1: but good coaches are starting to see, or good teams,
Speaker 1: big teams are starting to see the importance of not
Speaker 1: just creating good sportsmen, but creating good people in the sports.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And that's a lot of the time.
Speaker 2: You do hear that people, well, if you're if you're
Speaker 2: in those kinds of circles, you're talented. You know you
Speaker 2: can play the game, whether it be NRL, whether it
Speaker 2: be AFL. They know yet that you've got the talent,
Speaker 2: and so you want to be able to make sure
Speaker 2: you're coachable, You get along with teammates, you can connect
Speaker 2: with other people, take constructive criticism sometimes isn't easy, but
Speaker 2: you know, to make it at that elite level, even
Speaker 2: as a young person, you know it's important to be
Speaker 2: able to make sure you can take those things on
Speaker 2: board and be able to try to get better. But
Speaker 2: thinking about those you know, a lot of guys are
Speaker 2: in business now as well. They have that balance life
Speaker 2: and work balance and sports balance to be able to
Speaker 2: make sure yep, I'm looking after what I need to
Speaker 2: to pay the bills and play elite sports, but then
Speaker 2: that's not going to last forever. So I need to
Speaker 2: be able to make sure I set myself up and
Speaker 2: make that transition when football finishes or rugby finishes, to
Speaker 2: be able to make that transition as smooth as possible.
Speaker 2: So to be able to instill those those values and
Speaker 2: morals at a young age that Jared try to do
Speaker 2: for us young guys and leading into the AFL system
Speaker 2: is really important, and even more so, like I look
Speaker 2: back at my time and didn't probably utilize it as
Speaker 2: better best as I could have, you know, during my
Speaker 2: AFL time, But then you think about it now, you
Speaker 2: know you've got to try to you know, it's a
Speaker 2: short period to play that elite sport, make hey well
Speaker 2: the sunshines, do as much as you can, and then
Speaker 2: to be able to try to make that transition and
Speaker 2: those football at leade sports as smooth as possible.
Speaker 1: Another point, a little bit off track, but this is
Speaker 1: just my theory, and I haven't played sport at the
Speaker 1: level you're played, but being part of team sport is
Speaker 1: so good for life skills I'd see it. I'd see
Speaker 1: it and that sounds strange, but I'd see it in investigations.
Speaker 1: When I'd put a strike force together a group of investigators,
Speaker 1: I could almost tell who had played team sport in
Speaker 1: their childhood because the way they interacted with the group.
Speaker 1: Do you see the benefits of being part of a
Speaker 1: team sport one?
Speaker 2: Because everyone's got a different skill set and everyone that well,
Speaker 2: in a football sense, the end goal is doing games
Speaker 2: of football, but then you need to be able to
Speaker 2: come as a collective and bring your different skill sets
Speaker 2: to be able to achieve that that end goal. So
Speaker 2: it's you know, not everyone can kick goals, not everyone
Speaker 2: can be through the middle and win the foot, and
Speaker 2: not everyone's a great defender. So I think to be
Speaker 2: able to understand and how to work with others, understand
Speaker 2: other skill set and then to be able to try
Speaker 2: to compliment those as well, it is really important. And
Speaker 2: you know, there's some some values and some things that
Speaker 2: some morals that I've learned through football that I'll still
Speaker 2: hold close to my heart and live with these through today.
Speaker 2: So it's it's extremely important for me, and you know,
Speaker 2: I love being part of team sports. Not for everyone
Speaker 2: but I think, as you said, when you put teams together,
Speaker 2: you can understand who has been a part of team
Speaker 2: sports growing up, and you.
Speaker 1: Can see the way they react with others and the
Speaker 1: way they can get on with the group. So you're
Speaker 1: you're there, you're sixteen, and then you manage to get
Speaker 1: yourself become a father at sixteen.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's obviously unplanned, Gary, unplanned, But yeah, I
Speaker 2: let me say this.
Speaker 1: Things happened. I'm sure you've worked it out right now.
Speaker 1: How it happened.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I've got a fair idea how it happened. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It responsibility, It's huge responsibility. You know Dad will probably
Speaker 2: touch on a little bit later as well. Dad and
Speaker 2: still incarcerated at this time, so you know, sort of
Speaker 2: didn't sort of have too many male role models and
Speaker 2: support in my life. But then you know, you've got
Speaker 2: to take accountability of your actions and what happens. And
Speaker 2: you know, at a young age it could have been
Speaker 2: quite easy for you know, not to be able to
Speaker 2: take responsibility for that. But how well was it? You know,
Speaker 2: Barbara still with her today, you know, got a young
Speaker 2: girl pregnant, and I had to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 2: So bringing a young a young girl and a little
Speaker 2: child into this world. Was absolutely difficult. It was it
Speaker 2: was hard. It was I was still a kid, So
Speaker 2: I was lucky. I had some great support from not
Speaker 2: only my mum and sisters, but you know, Barbara's mum
Speaker 2: and sisters and family as well. So two young kids,
Speaker 2: having a child trying to go to school was Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a favorite on my plate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt there was. But yeah, that's a potential
Speaker 1: sliding door moment. You could have you could have lost it,
Speaker 1: but you you accepted your responsibilities. And I think that
Speaker 1: even in the adverse ways or that drove you further
Speaker 1: towards football, that you had to make a living, you
Speaker 1: had to succeed.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny to say that because even we're talking
Speaker 2: about football and Clontarft and why I played the game,
Speaker 2: it was because I enjoyed it. And then I remember
Speaker 2: speaking to Jared about the draft, and you know, being
Speaker 2: the son of Jimmy Cracker, you know, you probably sort
Speaker 2: of people think about you and possibly have a look
Speaker 2: at you and thinking what was he good enough to
Speaker 2: play at the level And wasn't my ambitions as I
Speaker 2: spoke about previously, But you know, the reason why I
Speaker 2: did choose to play foot he was to look after
Speaker 2: my family. I remember when Jared spoke to me about it.
Speaker 2: I said, oh, well, I can't play football because I
Speaker 2: need to provide for my family and I need to
Speaker 2: find a living where I'm going to be able to
Speaker 2: support them. Jared said, well, if you get drafted, you're
Speaker 2: going to be able to earn enough monage to look
Speaker 2: after your family. So I said, well, I'll sign up
Speaker 2: and yeah, committed to the draft and yeah. Luckily I
Speaker 2: was able to get picked up by the late great
Speaker 2: Danny Frawley and the Richmond Footy Club in two thousand,
Speaker 2: so they were and they were great support and Dale
Speaker 2: weightman as well as the play well for manager at
Speaker 2: the time, so you know, understanding, you know who I
Speaker 2: had coming with me as well my partner and my
Speaker 2: daughter and then to be able to support me on
Speaker 2: that journey if they were amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that was life was start off a little
Speaker 1: bit rocky when you become a dad at sixteen, but
Speaker 1: you've signed up, you've signed up with you you're on
Speaker 1: the way to making that there's a professional footballer. Life's
Speaker 1: pretty good for you at that stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the first three years. Your life was good.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was with my little one and Barbara and Mum
Speaker 2: who came over and my sister. We moved over to Melbourne,
Speaker 2: and yeah, life was good. I was enjoying, enjoying my
Speaker 2: time at Richmond. I didn't really think I was a
Speaker 2: part of the senior side just yet. I still had
Speaker 2: a fair bit to learn and to be able to
Speaker 2: understand what was required to be an AFL player and
Speaker 2: to be able to make an impact at AFL level.
Speaker 2: So it probably took me about three years to understand
Speaker 2: what was really required. How I needed to train, the sleep,
Speaker 2: that I had to have, alcohol intake, a diet, and
Speaker 2: all those kinds of things I never thought about, or
Speaker 2: you know, I never came into my thinking to play football.
Speaker 2: But then once you get to this level, there's so
Speaker 2: many other things. That's what separate boxes need to tick.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So it took a little bit and it was
Speaker 2: a massive culture shock, you know, being you know, I
Speaker 2: spent a fair bit of time in Melbourne growing up,
Speaker 2: but then to be able to come over again, it
Speaker 2: was just huge shock, you know, to come into an
Speaker 2: AFL club and then yeah, to see how they operate
Speaker 2: and you see these guys on TV that you know,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden are your teammates and these guys
Speaker 2: are superstars. It took a little bit to get used to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and did you enjoy it? Like I know it's
Speaker 1: I look at it, You know, wow, that would be great.
Speaker 1: But there's pressure that's associated with performing at that level
Speaker 1: and you get critiqued on everything you do.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent, because at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, it's a result driven industry. If you don't
Speaker 2: get the results, and you know everything's going to go
Speaker 2: through with a fine tooth coming to be able to
Speaker 2: see how you can get better. People are not performing
Speaker 2: at the level that they need to while we'll get
Speaker 2: someone else who can. So it's a cutthroat industry. So
Speaker 2: it's it was hard and sort of going back to
Speaker 2: what I spoke about before. And you know, criticism and
Speaker 2: you know you're not doing the right thing, and the
Speaker 2: coach looks in between the eyes and absolutely gives it
Speaker 2: to you, and you're to think how you got to
Speaker 2: get better to be able to make sure you perform
Speaker 2: and you know you understand your skill set and how
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to help help the team
Speaker 2: be better. So it was a little bit hard to
Speaker 2: understand all that and to be able to get to
Speaker 2: a level required where I could play play some good
Speaker 2: good foot at senior level. But it was a journey
Speaker 2: just to you know, first off, I was just enjoying
Speaker 2: there being for the ride. But then I understanda while,
Speaker 2: I'm not here to make up the numbers. You know,
Speaker 2: I need to be able to make sure at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, if I don't do well, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to be able to look after my family.
Speaker 2: So I need to be able to get better and
Speaker 2: be able to put food on the table.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was a sort of driving force and
Speaker 1: a lot of what you're achieving running with making that
Speaker 1: there's a professional football or a young young family and
Speaker 1: all the pressures associated with just day to day living.
Speaker 1: You also had something else in the going on in
Speaker 1: your life in that your father ended up in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll go back and sort of I'll tell
Speaker 2: you sort of the story of how that happened. As
Speaker 2: we spoke about before being over in Melbourne, we didn't
Speaker 2: get too much time to be able to go back
Speaker 2: to w A and spend time with the family. But
Speaker 2: every Christmas was our annual trip back and we're able
Speaker 2: to go back and you know, go down to Mount
Speaker 2: Barker and you know, as a young kid, you know,
Speaker 2: not seeing all these cousins and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you know you've got probably a couple of streets where
Speaker 2: you know you nearly related to everyone. You know, early
Speaker 2: in the morning, the kids are just jumping up and
Speaker 2: you know you're going to play cricket or footy or
Speaker 2: going for a walk to the pool or something like that,
Speaker 2: or sort of especially Christmas days, you're coming up for
Speaker 2: a big feed. And it was fun. You know, there's
Speaker 2: something I look forward to all the time, and you know,
Speaker 2: we had really great experiences. I'll still look back and
Speaker 2: see some photos of those times and you know, everyone happy,
Speaker 2: and you know, just young fellas and stars were a
Speaker 2: little bit different then, but great photos and great memories.
Speaker 2: And so from from as long as I can remember,
Speaker 2: we went across every year. And when we went over
Speaker 2: for a trip when I was about ten years old,
Speaker 2: that's when things for our family would change, how everyone's lives.
Speaker 2: I remember going down to Mount Barker, spending our time
Speaker 2: and Chrissy period with the family and then expecting to
Speaker 2: come back up to Perth and then get on a
Speaker 2: plane and come back to Melbourne. So as we did that,
Speaker 2: we're staying with my uncle uncle Bill rest in Peace
Speaker 2: at his house. And we went up there and it
Speaker 2: was just a quiet It was an odd, odd approach
Speaker 2: to the house. I remember Mum getting out of the car,
Speaker 2: my Annie getting out of the car. And usually once
Speaker 2: you get to the house, you usually you know, you
Speaker 2: go run into the fridge, or you're going to get
Speaker 2: some toys or jump on a bike or whatever it
Speaker 2: may be. But it was a real steady, slowly approach
Speaker 2: and we were held back as well by Mum. And
Speaker 2: then we got to the front door. Arnie opened the door,
Speaker 2: looked to the left and the house had been roundsacked.
Speaker 2: The couches flipped upside down, the TV flipped and that
Speaker 2: was a common theme throughout the house, every room we
Speaker 2: went to. I remember getting to the end of the
Speaker 2: house and I was holding my mum's hand all the
Speaker 2: way through and I said, oh, Mum, where's Dad And
Speaker 2: Mom said, oh, I'm not I'm not sure where he is.
Speaker 2: So and us we didn't know what was going on,
Speaker 2: what was happening, and then probably a little bit after that,
Speaker 2: Mum said that Dad got in a bit of trouble
Speaker 2: and we might not see him for a little while.
Speaker 2: So as a young kid, you're not really understanding what's
Speaker 2: going on and you know the charges, what I do,
Speaker 2: what I understand, and what happened? Now you know, why
Speaker 2: is Dad not here? When's he's coming home? You know,
Speaker 2: you know this isn't fair as a young kids, a
Speaker 2: ten year old, yeah, absolutely it was. So to be
Speaker 2: able to try to understand and comprehend, you know, what
Speaker 2: was going on was really difficult. So then finding out
Speaker 2: that dad was Dad was charged and eventually found guilty
Speaker 2: and sentenced to sixteen years in prison as a young
Speaker 2: kid was really difficult.
Speaker 1: What was the offenses drug trafficking, So.
Speaker 2: That was a that was a real that was really
Speaker 2: hard to comprehend and to you know, thinking how that happened,
Speaker 2: and you know, the dynamic of family is going to
Speaker 2: change for every now where we're going to live, what
Speaker 2: we're going to do, how we're going to see dad.
Speaker 2: All these kinds of things were really difficult to understand,
Speaker 2: and Mom did as best she could could to try
Speaker 2: to keep the family together. But you know, as a
Speaker 2: young kid, you just love being around your dad. Then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know you taken away from you.
Speaker 2: You're only going to see him on the weekends, really,
Speaker 2: and you don't have a phone call and jump on
Speaker 2: the phone. It probably for a couple of minutes every
Speaker 2: couple of every day or so.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. I don't think people fully appreciate the
Speaker 1: impact that when one person in the family sentenced to prison,
Speaker 1: the impact on how many lives it impacts on. And
Speaker 1: you know that's not diminishing these victims in these crimes
Speaker 1: and everything else, but when people are sentenced to prison,
Speaker 1: that it's a sentence for the whole family as well,
Speaker 1: isn't it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? One hundred percent is it? You know, we look
Speaker 2: back at that time now and understand that how we
Speaker 2: were impacted, and it was it was trauma, was traumatic.
Speaker 2: You know, it's still something that when you speak about it,
Speaker 2: you relive those moments, you're taken back like it happened yesterday.
Speaker 2: So it was really tough and obviously on the family.
Speaker 2: You know, as I said, my brothers and sisters and
Speaker 2: mum as well, and even extended found me. You know, Dad,
Speaker 2: sisters and brothers and our cousins. You know, everyone, everyone
Speaker 2: was hurting and it was a really really tough time
Speaker 2: for everyone.
Speaker 1: And did you you have memories of going to visit
Speaker 1: your father in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do. We sort of used to go
Speaker 2: in there for a bit and then mom mum and
Speaker 2: dad was sort of having a bit of a yarn
Speaker 2: and we'd sort of come out, maybe go to the car,
Speaker 2: or sometimes there was a basketball called at the front.
Speaker 2: We'd sort of have a little shoot around and wait
Speaker 2: for them to come back out. But you know, they
Speaker 2: went too bad, you know, we sort of there's a
Speaker 2: bit of a process obviously to go in there, and
Speaker 2: it's a pretty scary process with your to line up
Speaker 2: and there's a sniffer dog that goes past, and obviously
Speaker 2: you're well aware of how it happens in the process there,
Speaker 2: but as a young kid, just standing still and making
Speaker 2: sure that you know, you don't want to sort of
Speaker 2: don't touch your dogs. It is, you know, and as
Speaker 2: a young kid, every time you see a dog, you
Speaker 2: just want to pad a dog and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, don't touch it. Your hands right by side
Speaker 2: your body was really really daunting, a really really hard
Speaker 2: experience to go through, but we just wanted to see Dad,
Speaker 2: so you know, in those dark, gloomy rooms, the dull rooms,
Speaker 2: and Dad would bring out some you know, some glollies
Speaker 2: or biscuits or coke or drinks and whatever else, but
Speaker 2: whatever they could and we'd have a bit of a yarn,
Speaker 2: a bit of a cuddle, and you know, that was
Speaker 2: about it. So those those experiences, you know, weren't too bad,
Speaker 2: a bit daunting, but I must admit there was one
Speaker 2: time we had a non contact visit and that was
Speaker 2: that was traumatic.
Speaker 1: That was really really difficult.
Speaker 2: So obviously the dog would have sat on one of us,
Speaker 2: and so non contact visit was the was the consequence
Speaker 2: of that. And yes, for us to be able to
Speaker 2: get crammed into a small room mum, my younger brother,
Speaker 2: two sisters and myself into a small non contact room
Speaker 2: and then Dad on the other side, it was, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was. It was really hard and it was heartbreaking
Speaker 2: the sea and obviously we couldn't be you know, in
Speaker 2: that visit for too long. It was a bit too
Speaker 2: hard on all of us and it was really hard
Speaker 2: to be able to understand the situation was in and
Speaker 2: to comprehend that, and you know, all you want to
Speaker 2: do is have that contact with that as well, you
Speaker 2: know that, and have a cuddle on. We couldn't do it.
Speaker 2: So that's something that really stuck with me and was
Speaker 2: really hard for you, for myself and that family at
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 1: Did you ever, in your wild as dreams comprehend that
Speaker 1: you would one day be behind the bars?
Speaker 2: No, No, not at all.
Speaker 1: It's not something like I speak to some people who
Speaker 1: have gone down the path and it's almost like, well,
Speaker 1: that's part of growing up. They expect it. But that
Speaker 1: wasn't that your path. A mistake has happened and you've
Speaker 1: found yourself in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know as a as a young fellow, and
Speaker 2: you know Dad, seeing Dad in prison as well. You
Speaker 2: had a lot of family members as well, so that
Speaker 2: was there sort of the norm there. But there's certainly
Speaker 2: something that I didn't think I'll get into trouble again
Speaker 2: or be or seeing family and seeing dad, it was
Speaker 2: something I wanted to steer away from and not be
Speaker 2: involved in that. Yeah, so certainly something I never ever
Speaker 2: thought I was going to be be a part of
Speaker 2: it that in the justice space. But yeah, unfortunately I
Speaker 2: did find myself in that situation.
Speaker 1: So what happened? It was two thousand and six, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six. And so obviously we've Barbara and
Speaker 2: I've got two daughters by at this stage, how old
Speaker 2: are you? How old? I was twenty six, So my
Speaker 2: oldest she would have been nine, nine or ten, and
Speaker 2: then the youngest would have been nine, yeah, eight. So
Speaker 2: same as when we were young, follows come over and
Speaker 2: had our annual trip Christmas trips, come over and spendmouth family.
Speaker 2: I remember going out that night and I had a
Speaker 2: run in with someone who was known to me that
Speaker 2: I'd previously had a few run ins with this particular
Speaker 2: person and family members. So sometimes over there with First
Speaker 2: Nations families, yet get involved in some stuff in a
Speaker 2: bit of family feudy, and they tend to drag on
Speaker 2: like it's it's generational. It's you know, looking back, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, sometimes you don't even know what
Speaker 2: you're what you're finding fighting for an argument for, and
Speaker 2: that's why it's always bad and it just happens. And
Speaker 2: you know, I was involved. I was involved in that.
Speaker 2: So basically, Gary, I was involved in a physical altercation
Speaker 2: with another person where I've assaulted them, so got involved
Speaker 2: in a in a disagreement where obviously things got out
Speaker 2: of hand, and you know, looking back at that, at
Speaker 2: that time, you didn't think that, you know, you really
Speaker 2: did the wrong thing, but you know, it just happened
Speaker 2: how it happened. It just happened. But then looking back
Speaker 2: on it now, you know it was obviously the you know,
Speaker 2: take full account of bit of ability for my actions
Speaker 2: and what I did, and you know it was absolutely
Speaker 2: wrong what I did. But at the time, you know,
Speaker 2: it didn't seem that. It just felt like you were
Speaker 2: having a blue and you know, it was just a
Speaker 2: blur and things happened so quickly. But then afterwards, you know,
Speaker 2: after the incident, that's happened, and you know, I remember
Speaker 2: sort of looking down at myself and the clothes were
Speaker 2: ripped and a bit of stuff around, and you know,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of people sort of congregated around,
Speaker 2: and then you're sort of realizing sort of what's happened
Speaker 2: and trying to fathom and put everything together.
Speaker 1: So it was a sort of a late night nightclub.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was. It intoxicated, man, it's just okay.
Speaker 1: So it was just a continuation of the few. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like we sort of caught up and sort
Speaker 2: of said we're going to have a one on one
Speaker 2: and it's sort of, yeah, it's things got out of hand,
Speaker 2: my brother got involved. Yeah, so something I look back
Speaker 2: and not proud of Gary, not proud of it all.
Speaker 2: You know, you talk about the impacts that it has
Speaker 2: on others as well, but you know, going through the
Speaker 2: justice space and me seeing that firsthand through through my
Speaker 2: dad and sort of what impacted it had on me,
Speaker 2: but then understanding the victim as you said, victims are
Speaker 2: involved and the impact that has on them and their
Speaker 2: loved ones as well. So you know, to be able
Speaker 2: to understand, you know, through my own actions and something
Speaker 2: I chose to do had a really negative impact on
Speaker 2: a lot of people in community.
Speaker 1: But the fact that you can accept that and acknowledge that,
Speaker 1: I think is a starting point. Like if you went through,
Speaker 1: if you got the way of that and it was
Speaker 1: my fault he started that, you haven't learned the thing.
Speaker 2: No, that's right, And you know, obviously violence is not
Speaker 2: the way to be able to go and resolve issues
Speaker 2: or dramas that you're having, you know, certainly not the
Speaker 2: way to be able to go about things. But you know,
Speaker 2: it took a little bit to be able to get
Speaker 2: to that point with accountability and understand exactly how it
Speaker 2: happened and why it happened. And there was some courses
Speaker 2: of course that I had to do due to my
Speaker 2: offending to be able to break it right down and
Speaker 2: understand the different.
Speaker 1: Time to do that, those courses through prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well I had to do it as well
Speaker 2: for part of my prole But then, you know, I
Speaker 2: want to be able to make sure I didn't do
Speaker 2: this again. You know, as I said before, I didn't
Speaker 2: see myself being in prison, but I did and through
Speaker 2: my own action. So I've got to be able to
Speaker 2: try to fix this and be able to put things
Speaker 2: in place where I don't make the same mistake again.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about it so people can appreciate the impact
Speaker 1: when something like this happens. I think anyone growing up,
Speaker 1: when you've described the way you described it a young blake,
Speaker 1: you're a professional sportsman for testosterone and yeah, a punch up,
Speaker 1: you're not thinking much about it, but the consequences of
Speaker 1: devastating When this this occurred, did you get police police
Speaker 1: come and speak to you, did you realize that it
Speaker 1: was going to be charged. What happened the next day.
Speaker 2: The next day, I started getting reports that this guy
Speaker 2: had passed away, and you know, so my heart absolutely
Speaker 2: sunk and dropped, and thinking how, you know, like fire ount,
Speaker 2: did I take someone's life or you know what, what
Speaker 2: how can I get How could I've gotten to this?
Speaker 2: Why did I do what I did? And yeah, thankfully
Speaker 2: that wasn't the case. And then obviously the football club
Speaker 2: rang me, and there was you know, got some whispers
Speaker 2: over from over and w from the new profile. So
Speaker 2: and then obviously going through the news and then obviously
Speaker 2: family and everyone else hearing about it. So and then
Speaker 2: having to go and get get get charged and going
Speaker 2: through an investigation and your fingerprints and all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. So that was really really scary as well.
Speaker 2: And it was just an absolute blur of if I
Speaker 2: remember feeling numb the whole time, and then I go
Speaker 2: to court and saying that I had to be escorted.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of family members of his and
Speaker 2: obviously rightfully so really upset with what had happened and
Speaker 2: wanted retribution and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: He survived, He came through. Your brother was also charged
Speaker 1: with it. Yes, it was the same incident, so it
Speaker 1: was this full on family dispute.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The charge was intent to cause grievous bodily harm, right,
Speaker 2: and that that was the reasoning behind my charge.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've gone through court, the media, You've got the
Speaker 1: profile as a footballer, and that that's part of the pressure.
Speaker 1: I've been a profile, having the profile that it would
Speaker 1: have been reported heavily in the media.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And even thinking before I went away at
Speaker 2: the end of the preseason training before our Christmas break,
Speaker 2: the coach saying, making sure everyone's done a lot of
Speaker 2: work here to be able to get ourselves a really
Speaker 2: good nick. Go and enjoy your break into a time
Speaker 2: with their family. Don't do nothing and stuff, don't stuff
Speaker 2: anything up. And I remember just thinking they're listening. Heah,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't wait to get back with family.
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden everything goes out the
Speaker 2: window and you're coming back to pre season. You've embarrassed you,
Speaker 2: you let you let yourself down, you let your family down,
Speaker 2: you've let your teammates down, You've let a whole lot
Speaker 2: of people down. And then for sure, so much shame
Speaker 2: and then walking back through the club and everyone knows
Speaker 2: what's happened, and you know, then, how are you viewed
Speaker 2: now by people? What are they looking at you? What
Speaker 2: are they saying?
Speaker 1: Don't you worried your aboriginality plays a part in that too?
Speaker 1: Or you're worried you're thinking, look, this is a kid
Speaker 1: that's gone off the track. Does that play into it?
Speaker 2: Oh? Not necessarily. That's one thing I can talk about,
Speaker 2: no doubt. We'll touch on time. At Richmond there was
Speaker 2: no racism whatsoever, right, So I didn't feel that was
Speaker 2: a part of it. It was just like, man, he's let
Speaker 2: us down. You know, how could you get himself in that?
Speaker 1: S let your teammates down, the football club, your family,
Speaker 1: hold on people, basically everyone that you love and close to.
Speaker 2: You feel like you've let down one hundred percent. Not
Speaker 2: it felt like I felt like I did. I did
Speaker 2: let them down. I let everyone down. So everyone who
Speaker 2: had my back supported me, love and respected me. I
Speaker 2: felt like I just through do it in their face.
Speaker 2: It's a really hard pill to swallow too, because I'm
Speaker 2: a loyal friend, and you know you love hard and
Speaker 2: you know people who support you, you support them back as well.
Speaker 2: So for me to be able to understand through remote
Speaker 2: actions what I did and the impact that I had
Speaker 2: on a lot of people. It was It's a tough one.
Speaker 1: How hard were you on yourself? What was what was
Speaker 1: going through your mind with this? What were you thinking
Speaker 1: about yourself?
Speaker 2: I've just ruined I've ruined my family, Like I'm going
Speaker 2: to not be able to play football anymore. I'm going
Speaker 2: to be able to take that income away from us
Speaker 2: and you know, to be able to support my family.
Speaker 2: I've literally ripped that away from them. So that figuring
Speaker 2: out how and what am I going to do to
Speaker 2: be able to try to get this back and to
Speaker 2: be able to support them and to be able to
Speaker 2: make sure they're okay. And still I was still on
Speaker 2: the AFL list and still allowed to play football, but
Speaker 2: in the back of my mind, I had this court
Speaker 2: case hanging over my head, so would focus on doing
Speaker 2: what I needed to do and obviously, and then the
Speaker 2: writing was on the wall and eventually got delisted by
Speaker 2: Richmond at the end of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and then you went through the court matter
Speaker 1: you were convicted of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So there's one district's football club. They were
Speaker 2: the only I didn't really have. I were talking about
Speaker 2: setting ourselves up post football and that transition. I didn't
Speaker 2: utilize my time as I spoke about as well as
Speaker 2: I should have. Really didn't have too many skills besides football,
Speaker 2: and no one really wanted to go and near me
Speaker 2: because I had this court case hanging over my head.
Speaker 2: This one Districts footy club was the only club that
Speaker 2: really showed some interest and wanted to try to support me.
Speaker 2: I remember catching up with the CEO and some other
Speaker 2: people of the football club and them speaking about how
Speaker 2: they wanted me involved, but I was I was just
Speaker 2: blank thinking, what do you want to waste your time
Speaker 2: because I'll probably be going to jail. So I remember
Speaker 2: saying that articles and See at the time said well
Speaker 2: we'll cross that bridge room and get there, So that
Speaker 2: that sort of that was like, yeah, like these guys
Speaker 2: want to really support men. They have my best interest
Speaker 2: at heart, and what I feel terrible because I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be able to do too much for him.
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like I know I can't do
Speaker 2: too much. I don't really want to take this opportunity
Speaker 2: because I know I can't give a whole lot back,
Speaker 2: but I felt like, Okay, if there's an opportunity for
Speaker 2: me to be able to try to play some good
Speaker 2: foot and support them, you know, on field and get
Speaker 2: apart be involved in some of the First Nation's programs
Speaker 2: which had some really good ones at that stage in
Speaker 2: the football club and involved there and some mentoring programs.
Speaker 2: I'd do the best that I could to be able
Speaker 2: to support that. But I only played I think six
Speaker 2: or seven games. Went to trial two thousand and eight
Speaker 2: in June, and then as you mentioned, dere got found
Speaker 2: guilty and sentenced to thirty two months with a minimum
Speaker 2: parole period of sixteen months.
Speaker 1: Okay, it took us through that was the joint trial.
Speaker 1: Was your brother and you tried together. Yeah, so both
Speaker 1: convicted yep, and.
Speaker 2: Then straight to custody, my brother who had sixteen on
Speaker 2: with a minimum parole period of eight months. Yeah months. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's going through the trial, you know, you're
Speaker 2: still thinking about how you've let people down, but then
Speaker 2: also hearing about the incident and how it happened from
Speaker 2: someone else's perspective and hearing what you did and how
Speaker 2: you did it, and it's.
Speaker 1: As a wake up.
Speaker 2: It is a wake up corner. I was disgusting in myself.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like that. I you know, people sometimes think, oh,
Speaker 2: you're a bad person. I don't think I'm a bad person.
Speaker 2: I thought I made a mistake and I did the
Speaker 2: wrong thing. I chose to do the wrong thing. So
Speaker 2: and then you're thinking of he am I that bad
Speaker 2: a person?
Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing to hang on to, Andrew,
Speaker 1: because if we all make mistakes, and if you make
Speaker 1: a mistake and think you're a bad person, you've virtually
Speaker 1: become a self fulfilling prophecy. You keep telling yourself you're
Speaker 1: a bad person, you follow that path, the fact that
Speaker 1: you're smart enough to I'm a good person. I've done
Speaker 1: a bad thing. That's a that's a good way of
Speaker 1: looking at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, and I appreciate that. And that's and after
Speaker 2: hearing everything in court, for you for me to be
Speaker 2: able to think, yeah, that is terrible, but that's not me.
Speaker 2: I know I did the wrong thing, but that's had
Speaker 2: this picture their painting of me. That's not entirely that's
Speaker 2: I know, that's not me as a person. Yes, I'm accountable,
Speaker 2: Yes I did the wrong thing. Yes I need to
Speaker 2: be accountable for my actions and what comes from this
Speaker 2: comes from it. I've got to deal with it, because
Speaker 2: that's that's the accountability I need to take. So looking
Speaker 2: over at family members who come and supported me through
Speaker 2: the whole trial the last day, you know, it's Mum, Dad,
Speaker 2: antis looking over and seeing them and seeing the tears
Speaker 2: flow from their eyes sort of, I'll get a bit
Speaker 2: emotional talking about it. And it was just so hard
Speaker 2: to watch. And you know they remember the officers told
Speaker 2: me to come over and you could give them a
Speaker 2: hug or just you know, I shake the hands and
Speaker 2: I did it for like two seconds, and I felt,
Speaker 2: you know, I just felt so bad with what I've
Speaker 2: done and how I let everyone down and I had
Speaker 2: to get away. I'll just you know, I'll speak to
Speaker 2: you whenever again.
Speaker 1: That guilt and shape it was.
Speaker 2: And then not only that, my baby brother's in trouble
Speaker 2: because of me as well, Like that's another you carry,
Speaker 2: it's another layer as well as well. My brother's in
Speaker 2: jail because of me, you know. So that's a hard
Speaker 2: you know, that's a tough one to be able to
Speaker 2: take as well. And you know we've already touched on it,
Speaker 2: but to the negative impact that your actions have, you know,
Speaker 2: but then still to understand, well, you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: figure out obviously, there wasn't me thinking Okay, how am
Speaker 2: I going to get out of this? Is just trying
Speaker 2: to process, Okay, this is where I am right now,
Speaker 2: how do I how do I go about things? Obviously
Speaker 2: we've got taken down to the cells and it was
Speaker 2: on the news straight away, so as soon as we
Speaker 2: went down there within probably half an hour, so looking
Speaker 2: up at the TV screen and they're guilty and you
Speaker 2: know you've been sentenced, and the jail, the ride to
Speaker 2: be able to go to prison from the courthouse, it
Speaker 2: was just a dark, dark van and blokes were just
Speaker 2: yearning like it was nothing. You don't go into prison.
Speaker 2: And I just couldn't believe the situation that I was in.
Speaker 2: I didn't speak a word. I was just looking at
Speaker 2: the ground. You could hardly breathe. It was hot in
Speaker 2: the back of the van. And then all of a
Speaker 2: sudden sudden we get to hat here and we get
Speaker 2: processed to go through. So it's just a whole sense
Speaker 2: of feeling numb. Obviously my brother was beside me, but
Speaker 2: you know, and all these other emotions going through me.
Speaker 2: It's a shame, the guilt, you know, the people that
Speaker 2: you've let down, and then all of a sudden, well
Speaker 2: this is going to be home for a bit now.
Speaker 2: So getting processed, you know, the other prisoners and other
Speaker 2: people getting processed as well, looking at you, trying to
Speaker 2: test you out. And obviously people knew me because I
Speaker 2: played footy as well.
Speaker 1: So that's the thing. You come in there with a
Speaker 1: bit of a target because your high profile and JERL
Speaker 1: can be a scary place and you go in there
Speaker 1: in that environment, you wouldn't know what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: To the unknown, the unknown is always scary. It's obviously
Speaker 2: his stories and obviously knowing that Dad, you know, bench
Speaker 2: through the same thing, and even Dad, I remember getting
Speaker 2: some advice off him, and I look back on it
Speaker 2: now it wasn't wasn't the greatest, but at least it
Speaker 2: was honest. I said, I'm able to how do I
Speaker 2: what should my mindset be help? So I think about things?
Speaker 2: He said, expect the worst and hope for the best,
Speaker 2: and that was my that was my response as well.
Speaker 2: I had a giggle. I was like, well that doesn't
Speaker 2: help me, but it's honest. And so my my thinking was, well,
Speaker 2: I'm going to jail no matter what, and that that
Speaker 2: was the case, and but then to be able to
Speaker 2: actually hear it as well was it was hard again
Speaker 2: to be able to process. So uh, getting processed your fingerprints,
Speaker 2: you're getting given your clothes and then escorted to your cell.
Speaker 2: Walking down those corridors were just dark, and you know,
Speaker 2: you can all you can hear is the jingling of
Speaker 2: the keys, and you know the footsteps of the officers boots.
Speaker 2: You get to your prison cell and all of a
Speaker 2: sudden it opens up. Get ushered in. Other takes wants
Speaker 2: to take the bottom bunk, and it didn't have no
Speaker 2: discussion for me, and I jumped up top. And then
Speaker 2: you hear this. You know, you're getting the plate of
Speaker 2: food and sausage dyer looks like it's been there for
Speaker 2: a week, and some other food and obviously didn't have
Speaker 2: an appetite. Then all of a sudden, another jingle of
Speaker 2: the keys, and the huge steel door just locks, and
Speaker 2: I remember putting my hand on the door and obviously
Speaker 2: it's not moving and it's not going nowhere. This is
Speaker 2: going to be home for the next sixteen months. Getting
Speaker 2: up on top on the bunk bed, and you're seeing
Speaker 2: all the etchings and people that have been in the
Speaker 2: cell before me and graving their name in the walls,
Speaker 2: and you know, all that kind of stuff, and then
Speaker 2: getting up on top, and you know, the roof was
Speaker 2: about a half a foot away from my face, so
Speaker 2: you felt claustrophobic, and looking down at my clothes and
Speaker 2: understanding the greens that I've got on and touching the
Speaker 2: greens and this is reality. This is home for the
Speaker 2: next sixteen months at least. Scary, really scary.
Speaker 1: It's an intimidating hard place. Prisons just by the nature,
Speaker 1: but the layout of them that can be very much.
Speaker 1: So you're looking at the heavy steel gates and it
Speaker 1: just it's foreign. It's foreign to the way most people,
Speaker 1: most people live. Hey, guys, sorry for the interruption. I
Speaker 1: know that can be annoying, but I just wanted to
Speaker 1: jump in here and thank you for listening to this episode. Now,
Speaker 1: before we get back into the interview, I'm going to
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Speaker 1: Upon on Crime x plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, let's
Speaker 1: get back into this interview. I noticed in an article,
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of articles that were written
Speaker 1: about it, and one thing you relied on the philosophy
Speaker 1: that you learn through your football You can only control
Speaker 1: what you can control. Someone had given you that advice
Speaker 1: when you're playing football, and that you're equated on saying that.
Speaker 1: Is that the type of attitude you took in the prison, Well,
Speaker 1: this is my environment. I can't worry about things I
Speaker 1: can't control.
Speaker 2: Not initially it obviously, just you know, you probably have
Speaker 2: that bit of blame and thinking this wouldn't happen, but
Speaker 2: I would have done this, And there was a little
Speaker 2: bit of that initially, and then I got to a
Speaker 2: point it might have been I'm not quite sure, maybe
Speaker 2: three or four weeks and you know, maybe a bit
Speaker 2: longer than thinking well, hang on, you know, the only
Speaker 2: person that bame here is me. I'm the one who
Speaker 2: stuffed up. I'm the one who chose to do what
Speaker 2: I did. No matter other dynamics or whatever happened, what
Speaker 2: other people have done, They're not the reason why I'm here.
Speaker 2: I am. And then that's our sports psychologists when I
Speaker 2: was at Richmond to live by that only control what
Speaker 2: you can control. So once I got to that mindset
Speaker 2: and then thinking okay, well I can't control how long
Speaker 2: I'm here for. It's at least sixteen months. Obviously there's
Speaker 2: a few hurdles I've got to get over to be
Speaker 2: able to try to get my parole. But that's what
Speaker 2: I'm going to work towards. What's my day look like,
Speaker 2: how do I go about my day? What sort of
Speaker 2: routine and instructure I'm going to have. You know, obviously,
Speaker 2: prison politics, you know that's well and truly happens in there.
Speaker 2: And to be able to try to steer clear of that,
Speaker 2: and you know, just to be able to do my
Speaker 2: own thing, do my own time, and go about it
Speaker 2: that way. So it took a little bit for me
Speaker 2: to be able to get to that mindset and put
Speaker 2: those things in place so I could try to do
Speaker 2: whatever I could to be able to make my prison
Speaker 2: sentence as smooth as possible. But you know, control what
Speaker 2: I could control.
Speaker 1: Control and even use it to your advantage, as in, yeah,
Speaker 1: turn your life around. Initial impressions of the inmates and
Speaker 1: initial impressions of corrective services officers when you first came
Speaker 1: in there in those early days, what did you think
Speaker 1: of the other inmates?
Speaker 2: You didn't know what to think, like, but something like
Speaker 2: I knew a few people in there, but then other
Speaker 2: blokes were just like, you don't know whether they're coming
Speaker 2: down on drugs, and obviously you know a few blokes.
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a scary experience as well.
Speaker 2: You never know what other guys are thinking or you know, like,
Speaker 2: as you said, I've got a bit of a target
Speaker 2: on their back. Do they want to try to have
Speaker 2: a crack so you or you say something or do something.
Speaker 2: You never know what's going to happen? So it was
Speaker 2: just a really you had to have you it. It's
Speaker 2: about you to be able to you know, the situations
Speaker 2: you could try to get yourself into and people around
Speaker 2: you and you know, oh, this spoke's getting a bit close.
Speaker 2: What's he trying to do here? Or you know anything
Speaker 2: or the s folk's talking a bit too much or
Speaker 2: his tones a little bit changing, you know, what's to
Speaker 2: go on? What's happening here? Could he be related to
Speaker 2: the person hyper alert? Absolutely? You know you're just on
Speaker 2: edge about anything and with the prison office or from
Speaker 2: growing up, you know, you probably didn't have the best
Speaker 2: experiences and probably you know, to be able to understand
Speaker 2: what prison offices do and how they are you just
Speaker 2: as a young father, you just think, well, you're there
Speaker 2: like on a founding member up, so the perception of
Speaker 2: them probably wasn't the greatest, but yeah, you just thought that, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to be on their bad side.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's just going to be able to
Speaker 2: understand the It's like understanding the rules of the game
Speaker 2: and to be able to understand what you can and
Speaker 2: can't do. You know, if you do the wrong thing,
Speaker 2: with prison officers, you're going to make it hard for yourself.
Speaker 2: So I just try to make sure that I did
Speaker 2: clear of that and did what I only did what
Speaker 2: I could do. But yeah, the impression impressions were not
Speaker 2: much in prison officers, just to see clear of them,
Speaker 2: and then you know, you know with inmates too. If
Speaker 2: I didn't really know, I'm I wasn't going to be
Speaker 2: trying to be overly friendly.
Speaker 1: We'll talk through all the experiences that you had had
Speaker 1: in prison. But I just want to make this comment
Speaker 1: that it was a cop for thirty years, so I
Speaker 1: was going in the prisons on different things and speaking
Speaker 1: to people in the in prison. But since I've left
Speaker 1: the cops, I had an opportunity of going into maximum
Speaker 1: security prison and correct Services in New South Wales gave
Speaker 1: me the opportunity to have a look around for a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks had free reign, and my perception of
Speaker 1: what goes on in prisons changed the longer I spent
Speaker 1: in there. That there's so much interaction between the inmates
Speaker 1: and the corrective services officers or the prison officers that
Speaker 1: they're almost all in this together, aren't they, And they
Speaker 1: can have a big impact an attitude of a prison
Speaker 1: officer can impact on the attitude of inmates and vice versa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And probably through my first part of my
Speaker 2: incarceration where I was I didn't have too much interaction,
Speaker 2: And when I probably started to have a little bit
Speaker 2: more interaction was when I was rated as a minimum
Speaker 2: security prisoner and then transferred to a medium sorry minimum facility,
Speaker 2: and then with the wreck officers and some other officers
Speaker 2: is probably not as highly strung as a maximum facility
Speaker 2: on edge. You know, you're out on a farm and
Speaker 2: even for yourself, you're walking out in the sun, you're
Speaker 2: getting fresh air. You know, you're not locked up in
Speaker 2: a cell those big steel doors I spoke about when
Speaker 2: I first went in. You're not locked up by that,
Speaker 2: So you're probably your guards not up as it was
Speaker 2: as much. But then the interactions that you had obviously
Speaker 2: the respect that you needed to have, but then also
Speaker 2: understanding the prison offices they've got a job to do,
Speaker 2: but then they have that balance as well. The ones
Speaker 2: that I sort of got to know pretty well, and
Speaker 2: you know, true, did you like a person and you know,
Speaker 2: had that respect as well, didn't just you're not You're
Speaker 2: not just another number. Or prisoner in there. So that's
Speaker 2: I suppose you know once I was hearted to have
Speaker 2: those interactions a little bit more and get to know
Speaker 2: me and being involved in some other sporting activities and
Speaker 2: programs they had within the prison system. There, you know,
Speaker 2: you could actually see the human side of them that
Speaker 2: I didn't previously see.
Speaker 1: Is that that's interesting? Isn't that you see the human side?
Speaker 1: But I think for someone that's you, you're walked in there,
Speaker 1: tripping over your bottom lip and feeling pretty down, the
Speaker 1: fact that someone can show you some humanity meant a
Speaker 1: lot to Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's right, and then like to make those connections we
Speaker 2: spoke about before, you know, who's your mob, where you're from,
Speaker 2: or I know this person. So prison office has been
Speaker 2: there for a fair while, so no doubt had known
Speaker 2: some family members that came through and to be able
Speaker 2: to make that connection and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you know, they might be able to say, oh, yep,
Speaker 2: I got in too much trouble, but boy could he
Speaker 2: play footy or he could play cricket. And that was
Speaker 2: a few of the conversations I had. So then your
Speaker 2: guards down a little bit more. So he knows a
Speaker 2: family member of mine, so and he's talking well about them,
Speaker 2: so you're sort of having a bit more of a
Speaker 2: chat with him, and you know you're not you don't
Speaker 2: have that, I suppose the normal perception of you know,
Speaker 2: you're an office, I'm not going to talk to you.
Speaker 2: I'm a prisoner. Well we'll just leave it as that,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So it's breaking down those barriers. And I look, I
Speaker 1: would imagine from an inmate's point of view that were
Speaker 1: a crew of them that gay. You shouldn't be speaking
Speaker 1: to corrective services officers, and I imagine there's some old school,
Speaker 1: you know, corrective services officers, so you shouldn't be speaking
Speaker 1: to the inmates. There's blue and there's green, and never
Speaker 1: the two should meet. But it's evolving.
Speaker 2: Then.
Speaker 1: I'm really interested, and we'll dig into it in part two.
Speaker 1: How that impacted on you, Whether you could have gone
Speaker 1: one way or the other, depending on your experience in prison,
Speaker 1: because you're really you're at that point. Your life was
Speaker 1: at the crossroads, wasn't it. You could have gone in
Speaker 1: there and come out angry, blame everyone else other than
Speaker 1: yourself for what put you in there, and and probably
Speaker 1: just stuffed up again.
Speaker 2: I could have hated the world. Absolutely, it was everyone
Speaker 2: else's fault but mine. But what I've learned through my
Speaker 2: footy years and growing up and you know, taken accountability
Speaker 2: that I couldn't. It just wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't
Speaker 2: in my psyche to be able to have that. And
Speaker 2: even if I did feel like that for a bit
Speaker 2: of might pull your head and that's not right, you know,
Speaker 2: get back on track, you know. So so yeah, absolutely
Speaker 2: I could have. You know, obviously there's there's times as
Speaker 2: well where you've spoken about that. Prisoners going there and
Speaker 2: meet other prisoners and then all of a sudden they
Speaker 2: might come out with some other knowledge that isn't great
Speaker 2: and probably make them off a little bit worse than
Speaker 2: they did come in. So I try to make my time.
Speaker 2: Yes I was a prisoner, but then you know, and
Speaker 2: even other prisoners to be able to understand. And you know,
Speaker 2: some people see prisoners and think, oh, they're terrible people.
Speaker 2: You know that, you know, you know they did this,
Speaker 2: they did that. But then there's so many other dynamics
Speaker 2: that are involved for people to be able to get
Speaker 2: into a situation where they are where they have to
Speaker 2: commit crimes and things like that, and I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do, but then I think
Speaker 2: with myself and having a young family, to have that
Speaker 2: care factor and to be able to understand prisoner's point
Speaker 2: of views too. But then also corrective services or or
Speaker 2: you know, prison officers, you know what they have to
Speaker 2: do as well. So yes, they have to be hard,
Speaker 2: they have to draw the line, don't take it personal
Speaker 2: because that's what they do because if they do the
Speaker 2: wrong thing, then they have to answer higher above and
Speaker 2: then if they sometimes you know, loss of privileges could
Speaker 2: be the consequence because of that. So it was a
Speaker 2: little bit hard to be able to understand, but then
Speaker 2: to to then to be able to figure out, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, I could have come out the other side
Speaker 2: the worse, worse off for you know, not with a
Speaker 2: positive mindset. But I just know my driving force and
Speaker 2: my my you know, for me to be able to
Speaker 2: get better for my kids and want to be out
Speaker 2: for my kids. So everything was around that. So everything
Speaker 2: if even if I wasn't if I might have had
Speaker 2: a not the greatest interaction with an officer, everything came
Speaker 2: back to my kids, like I can't do this because
Speaker 2: I might not see my kids. I might not be
Speaker 2: able to talk to them, So I'm not going to
Speaker 2: be able to do anything wrong that's going to get
Speaker 2: in the way of me and not seeing my kids.
Speaker 1: Well, that's where I think people find the inspiration from
Speaker 1: your story in that you were at that moment where
Speaker 1: life would have gone over way and you talk about
Speaker 1: accountability and you've used that worth a few times, and
Speaker 1: I think it shows that, Okay, I've accepted I've made
Speaker 1: the mistake and I want to make a change. We'll
Speaker 1: take a break now, Andrew, but when we get back,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what actually takes place when
Speaker 1: you're inside the prison and how you use that to
Speaker 1: your advantage, and what you've done since you've you've got
Speaker 1: out of prison.
Speaker 2: I was looking forward to Garrett.
Speaker 1: Cheers.