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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Garry jubilin here. I've got some sad

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Speaker 1: news over the weekend. Former Eye Catch Killers guest and

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Speaker 1: footy star Andrew Crackett passed away. I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: to meet Andrew a couple of years ago, and I

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Speaker 1: got to say I was impressed by the person that

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Speaker 1: he was. He went through some good times and bad times.

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Speaker 1: He was an AFL star who played one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty seven games for Richmond and Collingwood football clubs. But

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Speaker 1: what impressed me about Andrew was what he was giving

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Speaker 1: back to society. He had some tough times, but he

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Speaker 1: was such a great role model and he's going to

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Speaker 1: be sadly missed. So remember Andrew. We thought we'd re

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Speaker 1: release this episode we recorded with him in Melbourne last year.

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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking in the public endo the world in which

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Speaker 1: I operated.

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Speaker 2: The guests I talk to.

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Speaker 1: Each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

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Speaker 1: The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people

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Speaker 1: I talk to. Some of the content and language might

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Speaker 1: be confronting. That's because no one who comes in the

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Speaker 1: contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as

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Speaker 1: I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode

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Speaker 1: of I Catchkillers. This episode is brought to you by

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Speaker 1: Corrections Victoria. Today, we're going to have a look into

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Speaker 1: life behind the prison walls from both sides. Over the

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Speaker 1: next couple of weeks, we'll talk to AFL star Andrew Cracker,

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Speaker 1: who found himself locked behind bars at the height of

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Speaker 1: his football career. It was in two thousand and eight

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Speaker 1: the former Collingwood and Richmond player was found guilty of

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Speaker 1: assaulting a man outside of nightclub. He was sentenced to

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Speaker 1: thirty two months imprisonment for the offense. Andrew used his

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Speaker 1: time in prison to work on himself, and that led

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Speaker 1: to him being granted day release from prison. Now on

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Speaker 1: the outside of the prison walls, Andrew is helping others

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Speaker 1: by sharing his story. With the help of Corrections Victoria,

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Speaker 1: we'll also be talking to Clint Walker, an Aboriginal well

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Speaker 1: been officer from barw And Prison, and Kylie Davey as

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Speaker 1: soon your prison officer at Louden Prison. All three have

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Speaker 1: fascinating stories to tell and provide an insight into a

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Speaker 1: world few of us get to see. Andrew Cracker, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Garry, thanks for having me. Mate.

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Speaker 1: You've had a You've had a pretty interesting life. You've

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Speaker 1: you know, you've reached the dizzy heights of AFL player

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Speaker 1: and professional sportsman. You've done time in prison, you're hosting

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Speaker 1: the TV show, you're the father of four daughters. You've

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Speaker 1: got you've had some highs and lowers. How's life for

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Speaker 1: you at the moment.

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Speaker 2: It's life's good. Lofe's good, certainly, certainly plenty of ups

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Speaker 2: and downs and reading reading out sort of how my

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Speaker 2: life sort of panned out. It's that it is a

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Speaker 2: fair there's a fevid that's happened in there, you know,

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Speaker 2: probably the biggest greatest achievement of mine. Of the four girls,

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Speaker 2: so that they're they're all going well to out home

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Speaker 2: and living their own lives. One of the girls are

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Speaker 2: married and the two young ones at home, so they

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Speaker 2: certainly keep me on my toes. But yeah, looking back

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Speaker 2: on the AFL career and how I was involved in

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Speaker 2: two great clubs in Richmond and Collingwood and almost almost

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Speaker 2: a part of a Grand final, but the Cats are

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Speaker 2: too good in twenty eleven. But to be able to

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Speaker 2: look back, and you know, obviously there's a fair bit

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Speaker 2: to go still in my journey and my story, but

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Speaker 2: thus far to look back, there's a lot of achievements

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty proud of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you look at that way, and we're

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Speaker 1: obviously we're going to talk about your time in prison,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, that can break a lot of people, and

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Speaker 1: it's good that you can come through it. Your life

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Speaker 1: is about having highs and layers, and you've certainly I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine what it's like to be a professional

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Speaker 1: sportsman with fifty thousand people cheering you on and you're

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Speaker 1: taking a mark or whatever, and then you're having the

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Speaker 1: prison door locked and you're inside. That is the highs

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Speaker 1: and layers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, one week you're running out in

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Speaker 2: front of sixty seventy thousand at the mcg and as

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Speaker 2: you said, having a or when you take a take

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Speaker 2: a mark or kick anice goal or do a rundown tackle,

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Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you're running out and

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Speaker 2: playing footy at in prison and there's not too many

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Speaker 2: and there's not too many rules as well. So and

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Speaker 2: hearing you know that first night, you know, with the

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Speaker 2: door slamming, was a reality and a really real wake

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Speaker 2: up call to understand the situation where I was in

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of dynamics involved in that.

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Speaker 2: But then to realize you know that through my actions,

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Speaker 2: you know where I was and what was going to

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Speaker 2: be home for the next sixteen months at least. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think unless you've actually been to

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Speaker 1: prison you can fully appreciate the impact that has just

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Speaker 1: the fact and not even if you don't make it

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Speaker 1: that far in prison, if you've been under arrest, having

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Speaker 1: someone else tell you what to do when you can

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Speaker 1: do it, that type of things, it's confronting, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It certainly is Kerry. You think about as a as

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Speaker 2: an AFL player, you rock up and your schedules there

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Speaker 2: in front of you. You just need to rock up and

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Speaker 2: do what you need to do. Your weight, so you've

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Speaker 2: got a dietisian to help you to sort of keep

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Speaker 2: you on track, and so your body is in the

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Speaker 2: right neck to be able to perform at an elite level.

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Speaker 2: So everything's at your fingertips, and then all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden you're in the justice space and in the justice system,

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Speaker 2: and you're getting told what to do, when to do,

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Speaker 2: how to do it, when you can talk to your family,

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Speaker 2: how long you can see them for. So it is

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Speaker 2: a wake up call, and it's a roode shock to

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Speaker 2: the system, and certainly one that took me a little

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Speaker 2: bit to get used to. But you know, I look

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Speaker 2: back on it now and think things you take for

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Speaker 2: granted to go to the shop, go and get a coffee,

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Speaker 2: go and give you kiss, give your kids a kiss

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Speaker 2: good night, and wake up with them in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Those things you probably take for granted, and then you

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Speaker 2: don't realize how important they are to you and how

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Speaker 2: much they mean to you until they're taken away.

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Speaker 1: In a sort of strange way, having that experience in

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Speaker 1: prison puts the rest of it in perspective, doesn't it

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Speaker 1: that you need to be appreciative of those little moments

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Speaker 1: that you've just described.

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Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent, it does. It's you know, as

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Speaker 2: I said, my personal story. You know, I'm speaking my

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Speaker 2: own journey, you know, being an AFL player and then

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Speaker 2: also being in the prison system. You just you know,

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Speaker 2: the little things that you do take for granted, and

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Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you get those freedoms back,

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Speaker 2: you get your own freedom back, and you know, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden you're allowed to you probably look

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Speaker 2: over your shoulder a little bit once you get out,

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Speaker 2: and then thinking, you know what I must do, and

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Speaker 2: here I've usually got people looking over my shoulder. But

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Speaker 2: then you've got your own freedom back, so and then

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Speaker 2: you realize how important that is. And as you said,

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Speaker 2: to be able to take my little ones to school

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Speaker 2: and pick them up, and it was certainly an eye opener.

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Speaker 2: And you know, something I've never taken for granted granted

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Speaker 2: after that experience.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to go right through the experience. I

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Speaker 1: want to hear what it's like and the things that

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Speaker 1: kept you pointed when you hit the let's call it

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Speaker 1: rock by them. I think you can call it rock

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Speaker 1: by them if you're locked up in prison. But you

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Speaker 1: managed to turn that around the news it in a positive,

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Speaker 1: a positive sense. I want to talk about that. But

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Speaker 1: let's find out a little bit more about you before

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Speaker 1: we take you into prison. So where were you born?

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Speaker 1: What's your backstory?

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Speaker 2: I was born here in Nam is the Aboriginal word

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Speaker 2: for Melbourne. So born here in arm and my country

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Speaker 2: over in West Australia is Borlu. So when I do

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Speaker 2: try to refer to these terms, I'd like to be

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Speaker 2: able to use that that Aboriginal language, because growing up

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Speaker 2: I didn't use it too much. So Nam is here

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne. I'm a proud menang Nunga and Ingra Yamiji man.

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Speaker 2: So the area of menang Nungo is the great southern

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Speaker 2: of Western Australia. Mount Barker for about four hundred k's

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Speaker 2: south of Perth and Canarvin is where Yamaji people are from.

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Speaker 2: My mother's mob from aver in Perth as well, so,

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Speaker 2: which is about nine hundred to one thousand k's north

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Speaker 2: of Perth. So but then born here in Aram because

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Speaker 2: Dad was playing for North Melbourne at the time.

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Speaker 1: Right, So your father was a bit of a legend

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Speaker 1: of a football player.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't too bad. He as a young fellow.

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Speaker 2: I just went to the crash and I didn't really

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Speaker 2: see him play too much. Footy and I was there

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Speaker 2: with my went to the crashy with my other cousins,

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Speaker 2: Uncle Phil, he was played footy with Dad as well.

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Speaker 2: So but I didn't realize actually how good they were

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Speaker 2: in I'm not being a bit biased because they're my

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Speaker 2: father and but just the impact that they had in

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Speaker 2: the Trailblazers and pioneers they were, especially with First Nations

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Speaker 2: people playing VFL football at that time, there was just

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Speaker 2: a handful. You look at it, you look at it

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Speaker 2: these days and how many are in the system now.

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Speaker 2: It's just you know, you've got players left, right and

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Speaker 2: center and over, probably one hundred players in the AFL space,

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Speaker 2: So it's absolutely huge. And you think about you know,

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Speaker 2: guys like the late Morris Rowley rest in peace, Michael McLean,

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Speaker 2: Robbie Muller at St. Kilder as well, and Dad and

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Speaker 2: Uncle Phil being a part of that, you know, to

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Speaker 2: be able to help and support young people coming through

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Speaker 2: the system and realize how good, how my bar and

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Speaker 2: they do deserve to be in that space. So it's yeah,

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize how good they were until I was

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Speaker 2: a little bit older and I could see some highlights myself.

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Speaker 1: I suppose that's that's the fact you grew up with it.

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Speaker 1: I thought everyone's dad played for for fl You know,

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Speaker 1: you didn't didn't fully appreciate it. So when did you

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Speaker 1: get into football? When did football become a part of

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Speaker 1: part of your life?

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Speaker 2: Ten years old? I think I played for the Glady

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Speaker 2: Park Cooker Boroughs, so they were a red jumper with

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Speaker 2: the blue stripe across the front. Lived in Gladston Park

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Speaker 2: and grew up there with my younger brother and two

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Speaker 2: older sisters and mums. So yeah, at a young age,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really loved, loved my footy. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's my first experiences and happened. It happened to be okay,

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Speaker 2: and one a few trophies, and but more importantly I

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Speaker 2: enjoyed it. It was it was a lot of fun, okay.

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Speaker 1: And where where did you Where did you think that

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Speaker 1: you're going to make a career Did you ever envisage

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Speaker 1: that you'd make a career playing football? Or you just

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Speaker 1: playing because you love chasing the ball around and tackling

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Speaker 1: and having some fun.

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Speaker 2: It was the letter, It certainly was the letter. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't an ambition of mine to try to follow dad

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Speaker 2: football foot steps as I said, I didn't really know

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Speaker 2: the kind of impact and the dance he had in

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Speaker 2: the in the game in the VFL, so I just

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Speaker 2: liked it. My mates were doing it and I happened

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Speaker 2: to be okay at it. So I was never ever thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I want to play AFL one day. I grew up

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Speaker 2: barracking for North Melbourne, Wayne Wayne Kerry, Garryabler for Geelong

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Speaker 2: and guys. I loved watching Winston Abraham is another nong

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Speaker 2: A man from Wa that I loved how he went

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Speaker 2: about it. He was really flashy, kicked really good goals,

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Speaker 2: took nice marks. But it wasn't you know. I just

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Speaker 2: liked it because my Mason playing it and it was

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Speaker 2: fun fair enough.

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Speaker 1: But you did take you back to Western Australia at

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Speaker 1: one stage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it certainly did. So that sort of went

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Speaker 2: through my junior stage. So we're talking about once I

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Speaker 2: got into the AFL system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jared Neisham the first Doctor's coach, is it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, so through so through my teenage years

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Speaker 2: I lived down near koobl Up and Hammi Hill and

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Speaker 2: spent a fair bit of time around there and Jared

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Speaker 2: Neisham when I went to Clontaft Academy. So that was

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Speaker 2: the initial the first year and obviously we've known anyone

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Speaker 2: who knows about Clontaft. Now it's a national program and

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Speaker 2: it's doing really well at the moment. So first first

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Speaker 2: year of Clontaft there was probably a thirty thousand dollar budget.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was a first time I was going

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Speaker 2: to go and be involved in the school with all

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Speaker 2: average First Nations kids. So that was enticing and something

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Speaker 2: that wanted me. I wanted to go and be a

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Speaker 2: part of that.

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Speaker 1: Brok just on that I read in prepping for the

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Speaker 1: podcast that that was the first time year the experience

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Speaker 1: a school with all Indigenous children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct.

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Speaker 1: Did that give you a sense of sense of belonging?

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Speaker 1: Does that change your outlook on things?

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Speaker 2: I think it did. I think because most schools I

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Speaker 2: went to was obviously you know, I had non Indigenous

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Speaker 2: and all different races and a diverse communities within those

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Speaker 2: schools and there so it was really Yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: I just that sense of belonging at I really enjoyed

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Speaker 2: going to the school and meeting meeting guys from different

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Speaker 2: areas and then sort of trying to make those connections.

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Speaker 2: Do his First Nations people. We you meet him, he's

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Speaker 2: asking what the last name is, and then you try

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Speaker 2: to make a connection or who's your mob, where you're

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Speaker 2: from you know? Or do you know this person or

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Speaker 2: that person? And a lot of the guys we had

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Speaker 2: a connection somehow, first or second degree to be able

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Speaker 2: to be connected somehow, So it was it was great.

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Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. And I think Jared with his

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Speaker 2: being the inaugural coach for the Dockers, and he had

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Speaker 2: a fair few Indigenous First Nations boys in the in

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Speaker 2: his team as well when he Abraham was there, young

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Speaker 2: Arthur Taylor, you know, Scotty Chisholm, Gary, the Durkue Rest

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Speaker 2: in Peace. There was a lot a lot of great

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Speaker 2: young players there. So for Jered to be able to

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Speaker 2: have that connection and then to be able to come

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Speaker 2: back and want to support young people coming through the

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Speaker 2: education system and using football as a vehicle to keep

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Speaker 2: us engaged in school and making sure that if we're

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Speaker 2: not doing the right things in class, we can't be

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Speaker 2: part of the program.

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Speaker 1: He was a really good role model to a lot

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Speaker 1: of How important do you think that is? So I

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Speaker 1: think that's a good a good thing to instill in

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Speaker 1: someone that you know, if you're not doing well in school,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be part of the football set up.

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Speaker 1: Is that important?

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Speaker 2: I think it's a It is a great initiative, but

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're if you're if you're struggling on

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Speaker 2: the academic side, you may not think so, but you know,

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Speaker 2: you need to be able to make sure that your

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Speaker 2: your education is at a space where you can you know,

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Speaker 2: you can do well for yourself. You can try to

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Speaker 2: set yourself up and be successful. Whatever that looks like.

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Speaker 2: Successful looks different to different people, so you know, what

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Speaker 2: someone sees its success, it might not be for someone else.

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Speaker 2: You know, everyone's at the different journey within their lives.

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Speaker 2: So I think it was just it was great to

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Speaker 2: make sure that, you know, we had an accountability as well. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we were good footballers and we were part of a

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Speaker 2: really good program, but that's not what we're here for.

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Speaker 2: We were here to help you and support you and

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Speaker 2: to set you up for life after school. So education

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Speaker 2: is important. Yes, football is great, and you're going to

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Speaker 2: learn some great things and morals and value through football,

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Speaker 2: but we need to be able to find that balance

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Speaker 2: and connected too. So I thought it was a great initiative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think people are starting to understand that

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Speaker 1: some of the on Sydney base. So it's more the

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Speaker 1: NRL type coaches and sport that is followed up there,

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Speaker 1: but good coaches are starting to see, or good teams,

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Speaker 1: big teams are starting to see the importance of not

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Speaker 1: just creating good sportsmen, but creating good people in the sports.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And that's a lot of the time.

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Speaker 2: You do hear that people, well, if you're if you're

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Speaker 2: in those kinds of circles, you're talented. You know you

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Speaker 2: can play the game, whether it be NRL, whether it

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Speaker 2: be AFL. They know yet that you've got the talent,

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Speaker 2: and so you want to be able to make sure

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Speaker 2: you're coachable, You get along with teammates, you can connect

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Speaker 2: with other people, take constructive criticism sometimes isn't easy, but

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Speaker 2: you know, to make it at that elite level, even

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Speaker 2: as a young person, you know it's important to be

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Speaker 2: able to make sure you can take those things on

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Speaker 2: board and be able to try to get better. But

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Speaker 2: thinking about those you know, a lot of guys are

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Speaker 2: in business now as well. They have that balance life

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Speaker 2: and work balance and sports balance to be able to

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Speaker 2: make sure yep, I'm looking after what I need to

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Speaker 2: to pay the bills and play elite sports, but then

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Speaker 2: that's not going to last forever. So I need to

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Speaker 2: be able to make sure I set myself up and

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Speaker 2: make that transition when football finishes or rugby finishes, to

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Speaker 2: be able to make that transition as smooth as possible.

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Speaker 2: So to be able to instill those those values and

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Speaker 2: morals at a young age that Jared try to do

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Speaker 2: for us young guys and leading into the AFL system

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Speaker 2: is really important, and even more so, like I look

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Speaker 2: back at my time and didn't probably utilize it as

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Speaker 2: better best as I could have, you know, during my

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Speaker 2: AFL time, But then you think about it now, you

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Speaker 2: know you've got to try to you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: short period to play that elite sport, make hey well

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Speaker 2: the sunshines, do as much as you can, and then

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Speaker 2: to be able to try to make that transition and

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Speaker 2: those football at leade sports as smooth as possible.

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Speaker 1: Another point, a little bit off track, but this is

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Speaker 1: just my theory, and I haven't played sport at the

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Speaker 1: level you're played, but being part of team sport is

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Speaker 1: so good for life skills I'd see it. I'd see

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Speaker 1: it and that sounds strange, but I'd see it in investigations.

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Speaker 1: When I'd put a strike force together a group of investigators,

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Speaker 1: I could almost tell who had played team sport in

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Speaker 1: their childhood because the way they interacted with the group.

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Speaker 1: Do you see the benefits of being part of a

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Speaker 1: team sport one?

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Speaker 2: Because everyone's got a different skill set and everyone that well,

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Speaker 2: in a football sense, the end goal is doing games

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Speaker 2: of football, but then you need to be able to

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Speaker 2: come as a collective and bring your different skill sets

359
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Speaker 2: to be able to achieve that that end goal. So

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Speaker 2: it's you know, not everyone can kick goals, not everyone

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Speaker 2: can be through the middle and win the foot, and

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Speaker 2: not everyone's a great defender. So I think to be

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Speaker 2: able to understand and how to work with others, understand

364
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Speaker 2: other skill set and then to be able to try

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Speaker 2: to compliment those as well, it is really important. And

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Speaker 2: you know, there's some some values and some things that

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Speaker 2: some morals that I've learned through football that I'll still

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Speaker 2: hold close to my heart and live with these through today.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's extremely important for me, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I love being part of team sports. Not for everyone

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Speaker 2: but I think, as you said, when you put teams together,

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Speaker 2: you can understand who has been a part of team

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Speaker 2: sports growing up, and you.

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Speaker 1: Can see the way they react with others and the

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Speaker 1: way they can get on with the group. So you're

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Speaker 1: you're there, you're sixteen, and then you manage to get

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Speaker 1: yourself become a father at sixteen.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's obviously unplanned, Gary, unplanned, But yeah, I

379
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Speaker 2: let me say this.

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Speaker 1: Things happened. I'm sure you've worked it out right now.

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Speaker 1: How it happened.

382
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I've got a fair idea how it happened. Yeah.

383
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Speaker 2: It responsibility, It's huge responsibility. You know Dad will probably

384
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Speaker 2: touch on a little bit later as well. Dad and

385
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Speaker 2: still incarcerated at this time, so you know, sort of

386
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Speaker 2: didn't sort of have too many male role models and

387
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Speaker 2: support in my life. But then you know, you've got

388
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Speaker 2: to take accountability of your actions and what happens. And

389
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Speaker 2: you know, at a young age it could have been

390
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Speaker 2: quite easy for you know, not to be able to

391
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Speaker 2: take responsibility for that. But how well was it? You know,

392
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Speaker 2: Barbara still with her today, you know, got a young

393
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Speaker 2: girl pregnant, and I had to take responsibility for that.

394
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Speaker 2: So bringing a young a young girl and a little

395
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Speaker 2: child into this world. Was absolutely difficult. It was it

396
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Speaker 2: was hard. It was I was still a kid, So

397
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Speaker 2: I was lucky. I had some great support from not

398
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Speaker 2: only my mum and sisters, but you know, Barbara's mum

399
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Speaker 2: and sisters and family as well. So two young kids,

400
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Speaker 2: having a child trying to go to school was Yeah,

401
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Speaker 2: it's a favorite on my plate.

402
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Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt there was. But yeah, that's a potential

403
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Speaker 1: sliding door moment. You could have you could have lost it,

404
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 1: but you you accepted your responsibilities. And I think that

405
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Speaker 1: even in the adverse ways or that drove you further

406
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Speaker 1: towards football, that you had to make a living, you

407
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Speaker 1: had to succeed.

408
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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny to say that because even we're talking

409
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Speaker 2: about football and Clontarft and why I played the game,

410
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Speaker 2: it was because I enjoyed it. And then I remember

411
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Speaker 2: speaking to Jared about the draft, and you know, being

412
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Speaker 2: the son of Jimmy Cracker, you know, you probably sort

413
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 2: of people think about you and possibly have a look

414
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Speaker 2: at you and thinking what was he good enough to

415
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Speaker 2: play at the level And wasn't my ambitions as I

416
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Speaker 2: spoke about previously, But you know, the reason why I

417
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 2: did choose to play foot he was to look after

418
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Speaker 2: my family. I remember when Jared spoke to me about it.

419
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Speaker 2: I said, oh, well, I can't play football because I

420
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Speaker 2: need to provide for my family and I need to

421
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Speaker 2: find a living where I'm going to be able to

422
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,719
Speaker 2: support them. Jared said, well, if you get drafted, you're

423
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 2: going to be able to earn enough monage to look

424
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Speaker 2: after your family. So I said, well, I'll sign up

425
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,560
Speaker 2: and yeah, committed to the draft and yeah. Luckily I

426
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Speaker 2: was able to get picked up by the late great

427
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 2: Danny Frawley and the Richmond Footy Club in two thousand,

428
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 2: so they were and they were great support and Dale

429
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,719
Speaker 2: weightman as well as the play well for manager at

430
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Speaker 2: the time, so you know, understanding, you know who I

431
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 2: had coming with me as well my partner and my

432
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Speaker 2: daughter and then to be able to support me on

433
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Speaker 2: that journey if they were amazing.

434
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that was life was start off a little

435
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: bit rocky when you become a dad at sixteen, but

436
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: you've signed up, you've signed up with you you're on

437
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 1: the way to making that there's a professional footballer. Life's

438
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 1: pretty good for you at that stage.

439
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the first three years. Your life was good.

440
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 1: I was.

441
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 2: I was with my little one and Barbara and Mum

442
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 2: who came over and my sister. We moved over to Melbourne,

443
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 2: and yeah, life was good. I was enjoying, enjoying my

444
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: time at Richmond. I didn't really think I was a

445
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,639
Speaker 2: part of the senior side just yet. I still had

446
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,119
Speaker 2: a fair bit to learn and to be able to

447
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 2: understand what was required to be an AFL player and

448
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,120
Speaker 2: to be able to make an impact at AFL level.

449
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 2: So it probably took me about three years to understand

450
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 2: what was really required. How I needed to train, the sleep,

451
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 2: that I had to have, alcohol intake, a diet, and

452
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 2: all those kinds of things I never thought about, or

453
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 2: you know, I never came into my thinking to play football.

454
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 2: But then once you get to this level, there's so

455
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: many other things. That's what separate boxes need to tick.

456
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:08,959
Speaker 1: Yeah.

457
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So it took a little bit and it was

458
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: a massive culture shock, you know, being you know, I

459
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: spent a fair bit of time in Melbourne growing up,

460
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 2: but then to be able to come over again, it

461
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 2: was just huge shock, you know, to come into an

462
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 2: AFL club and then yeah, to see how they operate

463
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 2: and you see these guys on TV that you know,

464
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 2: all of a sudden are your teammates and these guys

465
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 2: are superstars. It took a little bit to get used to.

466
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and did you enjoy it? Like I know it's

467
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: I look at it, You know, wow, that would be great.

468
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 1: But there's pressure that's associated with performing at that level

469
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 1: and you get critiqued on everything you do.

470
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent, because at the end of

471
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: the day, it's a result driven industry. If you don't

472
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 2: get the results, and you know everything's going to go

473
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: through with a fine tooth coming to be able to

474
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: see how you can get better. People are not performing

475
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 2: at the level that they need to while we'll get

476
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,959
Speaker 2: someone else who can. So it's a cutthroat industry. So

477
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: it's it was hard and sort of going back to

478
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: what I spoke about before. And you know, criticism and

479
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: you know you're not doing the right thing, and the

480
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: coach looks in between the eyes and absolutely gives it

481
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 2: to you, and you're to think how you got to

482
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: get better to be able to make sure you perform

483
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: and you know you understand your skill set and how

484
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to help help the team

485
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 2: be better. So it was a little bit hard to

486
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: understand all that and to be able to get to

487
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 2: a level required where I could play play some good

488
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 2: good foot at senior level. But it was a journey

489
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: just to you know, first off, I was just enjoying

490
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 2: there being for the ride. But then I understanda while,

491
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: I'm not here to make up the numbers. You know,

492
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: I need to be able to make sure at the

493
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 2: end of the day, if I don't do well, I'm

494
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 2: not going to be able to look after my family.

495
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: So I need to be able to get better and

496
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 2: be able to put food on the table.

497
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was a sort of driving force and

498
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: a lot of what you're achieving running with making that

499
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: there's a professional football or a young young family and

500
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 1: all the pressures associated with just day to day living.

501
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 1: You also had something else in the going on in

502
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 1: your life in that your father ended up in prison.

503
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll go back and sort of I'll tell

504
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: you sort of the story of how that happened. As

505
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: we spoke about before being over in Melbourne, we didn't

506
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: get too much time to be able to go back

507
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 2: to w A and spend time with the family. But

508
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 2: every Christmas was our annual trip back and we're able

509
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 2: to go back and you know, go down to Mount

510
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 2: Barker and you know, as a young kid, you know,

511
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 2: not seeing all these cousins and then all of a sudden,

512
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: you know you've got probably a couple of streets where

513
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 2: you know you nearly related to everyone. You know, early

514
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: in the morning, the kids are just jumping up and

515
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 2: you know you're going to play cricket or footy or

516
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: going for a walk to the pool or something like that,

517
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: or sort of especially Christmas days, you're coming up for

518
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: a big feed. And it was fun. You know, there's

519
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 2: something I look forward to all the time, and you know,

520
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: we had really great experiences. I'll still look back and

521
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: see some photos of those times and you know, everyone happy,

522
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 2: and you know, just young fellas and stars were a

523
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 2: little bit different then, but great photos and great memories.

524
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 2: And so from from as long as I can remember,

525
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: we went across every year. And when we went over

526
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: for a trip when I was about ten years old,

527
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 2: that's when things for our family would change, how everyone's lives.

528
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 2: I remember going down to Mount Barker, spending our time

529
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 2: and Chrissy period with the family and then expecting to

530
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: come back up to Perth and then get on a

531
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: plane and come back to Melbourne. So as we did that,

532
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 2: we're staying with my uncle uncle Bill rest in Peace

533
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: at his house. And we went up there and it

534
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: was just a quiet It was an odd, odd approach

535
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: to the house. I remember Mum getting out of the car,

536
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 2: my Annie getting out of the car. And usually once

537
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: you get to the house, you usually you know, you

538
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: go run into the fridge, or you're going to get

539
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 2: some toys or jump on a bike or whatever it

540
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: may be. But it was a real steady, slowly approach

541
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: and we were held back as well by Mum. And

542
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: then we got to the front door. Arnie opened the door,

543
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 2: looked to the left and the house had been roundsacked.

544
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 2: The couches flipped upside down, the TV flipped and that

545
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: was a common theme throughout the house, every room we

546
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: went to. I remember getting to the end of the

547
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: house and I was holding my mum's hand all the

548
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: way through and I said, oh, Mum, where's Dad And

549
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 2: Mom said, oh, I'm not I'm not sure where he is.

550
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: So and us we didn't know what was going on,

551
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: what was happening, and then probably a little bit after that,

552
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: Mum said that Dad got in a bit of trouble

553
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: and we might not see him for a little while.

554
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: So as a young kid, you're not really understanding what's

555
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: going on and you know the charges, what I do,

556
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: what I understand, and what happened? Now you know, why

557
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 2: is Dad not here? When's he's coming home? You know,

558
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: you know this isn't fair as a young kids, a

559
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: ten year old, yeah, absolutely it was. So to be

560
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: able to try to understand and comprehend, you know, what

561
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: was going on was really difficult. So then finding out

562
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: that dad was Dad was charged and eventually found guilty

563
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: and sentenced to sixteen years in prison as a young

564
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: kid was really difficult.

565
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: What was the offenses drug trafficking, So.

566
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: That was a that was a real that was really

567
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: hard to comprehend and to you know, thinking how that happened,

568
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: and you know, the dynamic of family is going to

569
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: change for every now where we're going to live, what

570
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 2: we're going to do, how we're going to see dad.

571
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: All these kinds of things were really difficult to understand,

572
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: and Mom did as best she could could to try

573
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: to keep the family together. But you know, as a

574
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 2: young kid, you just love being around your dad. Then

575
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know you taken away from you.

576
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 2: You're only going to see him on the weekends, really,

577
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: and you don't have a phone call and jump on

578
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: the phone. It probably for a couple of minutes every

579
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: couple of every day or so.

580
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: That's the thing. I don't think people fully appreciate the

581
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: impact that when one person in the family sentenced to prison,

582
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: the impact on how many lives it impacts on. And

583
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: you know that's not diminishing these victims in these crimes

584
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: and everything else, but when people are sentenced to prison,

585
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: that it's a sentence for the whole family as well,

586
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: isn't it?

587
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? One hundred percent is it? You know, we look

588
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 2: back at that time now and understand that how we

589
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: were impacted, and it was it was trauma, was traumatic.

590
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: You know, it's still something that when you speak about it,

591
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 2: you relive those moments, you're taken back like it happened yesterday.

592
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: So it was really tough and obviously on the family.

593
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: You know, as I said, my brothers and sisters and

594
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: mum as well, and even extended found me. You know, Dad,

595
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: sisters and brothers and our cousins. You know, everyone, everyone

596
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: was hurting and it was a really really tough time

597
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: for everyone.

598
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: And did you you have memories of going to visit

599
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: your father in prison.

600
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do. We sort of used to go

601
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: in there for a bit and then mom mum and

602
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: dad was sort of having a bit of a yarn

603
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: and we'd sort of come out, maybe go to the car,

604
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 2: or sometimes there was a basketball called at the front.

605
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: We'd sort of have a little shoot around and wait

606
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: for them to come back out. But you know, they

607
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: went too bad, you know, we sort of there's a

608
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: bit of a process obviously to go in there, and

609
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: it's a pretty scary process with your to line up

610
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: and there's a sniffer dog that goes past, and obviously

611
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 2: you're well aware of how it happens in the process there,

612
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: but as a young kid, just standing still and making

613
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: sure that you know, you don't want to sort of

614
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: don't touch your dogs. It is, you know, and as

615
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: a young kid, every time you see a dog, you

616
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: just want to pad a dog and then all of

617
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: a sudden, don't touch it. Your hands right by side

618
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: your body was really really daunting, a really really hard

619
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: experience to go through, but we just wanted to see Dad,

620
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: so you know, in those dark, gloomy rooms, the dull rooms,

621
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: and Dad would bring out some you know, some glollies

622
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: or biscuits or coke or drinks and whatever else, but

623
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: whatever they could and we'd have a bit of a yarn,

624
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: a bit of a cuddle, and you know, that was

625
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: about it. So those those experiences, you know, weren't too bad,

626
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: a bit daunting, but I must admit there was one

627
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: time we had a non contact visit and that was

628
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: that was traumatic.

629
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: That was really really difficult.

630
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: So obviously the dog would have sat on one of us,

631
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 2: and so non contact visit was the was the consequence

632
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: of that. And yes, for us to be able to

633
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: get crammed into a small room mum, my younger brother,

634
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: two sisters and myself into a small non contact room

635
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: and then Dad on the other side, it was, yeah,

636
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: it was. It was really hard and it was heartbreaking

637
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: the sea and obviously we couldn't be you know, in

638
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 2: that visit for too long. It was a bit too

639
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: hard on all of us and it was really hard

640
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: to be able to understand the situation was in and

641
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: to comprehend that, and you know, all you want to

642
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: do is have that contact with that as well, you

643
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: know that, and have a cuddle on. We couldn't do it.

644
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: So that's something that really stuck with me and was

645
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: really hard for you, for myself and that family at

646
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: that time.

647
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: Did you ever, in your wild as dreams comprehend that

648
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: you would one day be behind the bars?

649
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: No, No, not at all.

650
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: It's not something like I speak to some people who

651
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: have gone down the path and it's almost like, well,

652
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: that's part of growing up. They expect it. But that

653
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: wasn't that your path. A mistake has happened and you've

654
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: found yourself in prison.

655
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know as a as a young fellow, and

656
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: you know Dad, seeing Dad in prison as well. You

657
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: had a lot of family members as well, so that

658
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: was there sort of the norm there. But there's certainly

659
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: something that I didn't think I'll get into trouble again

660
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: or be or seeing family and seeing dad, it was

661
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: something I wanted to steer away from and not be

662
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: involved in that. Yeah, so certainly something I never ever

663
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: thought I was going to be be a part of

664
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: it that in the justice space. But yeah, unfortunately I

665
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: did find myself in that situation.

666
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: So what happened? It was two thousand and six, Yeah.

667
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six. And so obviously we've Barbara and

668
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: I've got two daughters by at this stage, how old

669
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: are you? How old? I was twenty six, So my

670
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: oldest she would have been nine, nine or ten, and

671
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: then the youngest would have been nine, yeah, eight. So

672
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: same as when we were young, follows come over and

673
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: had our annual trip Christmas trips, come over and spendmouth family.

674
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: I remember going out that night and I had a

675
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: run in with someone who was known to me that

676
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: I'd previously had a few run ins with this particular

677
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: person and family members. So sometimes over there with First

678
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: Nations families, yet get involved in some stuff in a

679
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: bit of family feudy, and they tend to drag on

680
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: like it's it's generational. It's you know, looking back, and

681
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, sometimes you don't even know what

682
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: you're what you're finding fighting for an argument for, and

683
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: that's why it's always bad and it just happens. And

684
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: you know, I was involved. I was involved in that.

685
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: So basically, Gary, I was involved in a physical altercation

686
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: with another person where I've assaulted them, so got involved

687
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: in a in a disagreement where obviously things got out

688
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: of hand, and you know, looking back at that, at

689
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: that time, you didn't think that, you know, you really

690
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: did the wrong thing, but you know, it just happened

691
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: how it happened. It just happened. But then looking back

692
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: on it now, you know it was obviously the you know,

693
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: take full account of bit of ability for my actions

694
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: and what I did, and you know it was absolutely

695
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: wrong what I did. But at the time, you know,

696
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: it didn't seem that. It just felt like you were

697
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: having a blue and you know, it was just a

698
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: blur and things happened so quickly. But then afterwards, you know,

699
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: after the incident, that's happened, and you know, I remember

700
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 2: sort of looking down at myself and the clothes were

701
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: ripped and a bit of stuff around, and you know,

702
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: there was a lot of people sort of congregated around,

703
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: and then you're sort of realizing sort of what's happened

704
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: and trying to fathom and put everything together.

705
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: So it was a sort of a late night nightclub.

706
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was. It intoxicated, man, it's just okay.

707
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: So it was just a continuation of the few. Yeah.

708
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like we sort of caught up and sort

709
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: of said we're going to have a one on one

710
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: and it's sort of, yeah, it's things got out of hand,

711
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: my brother got involved. Yeah, so something I look back

712
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: and not proud of Gary, not proud of it all.

713
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: You know, you talk about the impacts that it has

714
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: on others as well, but you know, going through the

715
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: justice space and me seeing that firsthand through through my

716
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: dad and sort of what impacted it had on me,

717
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: but then understanding the victim as you said, victims are

718
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: involved and the impact that has on them and their

719
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: loved ones as well. So you know, to be able

720
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: to understand, you know, through my own actions and something

721
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: I chose to do had a really negative impact on

722
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people in community.

723
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: But the fact that you can accept that and acknowledge that,

724
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: I think is a starting point. Like if you went through,

725
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: if you got the way of that and it was

726
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: my fault he started that, you haven't learned the thing.

727
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: No, that's right, And you know, obviously violence is not

728
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: the way to be able to go and resolve issues

729
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: or dramas that you're having, you know, certainly not the

730
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: way to be able to go about things. But you know,

731
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: it took a little bit to be able to get

732
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: to that point with accountability and understand exactly how it

733
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: happened and why it happened. And there was some courses

734
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: of course that I had to do due to my

735
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: offending to be able to break it right down and

736
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: understand the different.

737
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: Time to do that, those courses through prison.

738
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well I had to do it as well

739
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: for part of my prole But then, you know, I

740
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: want to be able to make sure I didn't do

741
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: this again. You know, as I said before, I didn't

742
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: see myself being in prison, but I did and through

743
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: my own action. So I've got to be able to

744
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: try to fix this and be able to put things

745
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: in place where I don't make the same mistake again.

746
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: Let's talk about it so people can appreciate the impact

747
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: when something like this happens. I think anyone growing up,

748
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: when you've described the way you described it a young blake,

749
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: you're a professional sportsman for testosterone and yeah, a punch up,

750
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: you're not thinking much about it, but the consequences of

751
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: devastating When this this occurred, did you get police police

752
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: come and speak to you, did you realize that it

753
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: was going to be charged. What happened the next day.

754
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: The next day, I started getting reports that this guy

755
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: had passed away, and you know, so my heart absolutely

756
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: sunk and dropped, and thinking how, you know, like fire ount,

757
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: did I take someone's life or you know what, what

758
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: how can I get How could I've gotten to this?

759
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: Why did I do what I did? And yeah, thankfully

760
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: that wasn't the case. And then obviously the football club

761
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: rang me, and there was you know, got some whispers

762
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: over from over and w from the new profile. So

763
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: and then obviously going through the news and then obviously

764
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: family and everyone else hearing about it. So and then

765
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: having to go and get get get charged and going

766
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: through an investigation and your fingerprints and all that kind

767
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: of stuff. So that was really really scary as well.

768
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: And it was just an absolute blur of if I

769
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 2: remember feeling numb the whole time, and then I go

770
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: to court and saying that I had to be escorted.

771
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: There are a lot of family members of his and

772
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: obviously rightfully so really upset with what had happened and

773
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: wanted retribution and all that kind of stuff.

774
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: He survived, He came through. Your brother was also charged

775
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: with it. Yes, it was the same incident, so it

776
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: was this full on family dispute.

777
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. The charge was intent to cause grievous bodily harm, right,

778
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: and that that was the reasoning behind my charge.

779
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you've gone through court, the media, You've got the

780
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: profile as a footballer, and that that's part of the pressure.

781
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: I've been a profile, having the profile that it would

782
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: have been reported heavily in the media.

783
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And even thinking before I went away at

784
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: the end of the preseason training before our Christmas break,

785
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: the coach saying, making sure everyone's done a lot of

786
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: work here to be able to get ourselves a really

787
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: good nick. Go and enjoy your break into a time

788
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: with their family. Don't do nothing and stuff, don't stuff

789
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: anything up. And I remember just thinking they're listening. Heah,

790
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 2: you know, I can't wait to get back with family.

791
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden everything goes out the

792
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: window and you're coming back to pre season. You've embarrassed you,

793
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: you let you let yourself down, you let your family down,

794
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: you've let your teammates down, You've let a whole lot

795
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: of people down. And then for sure, so much shame

796
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: and then walking back through the club and everyone knows

797
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 2: what's happened, and you know, then, how are you viewed

798
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: now by people? What are they looking at you? What

799
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: are they saying?

800
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: Don't you worried your aboriginality plays a part in that too?

801
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: Or you're worried you're thinking, look, this is a kid

802
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: that's gone off the track. Does that play into it?

803
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: Oh? Not necessarily. That's one thing I can talk about,

804
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: no doubt. We'll touch on time. At Richmond there was

805
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: no racism whatsoever, right, So I didn't feel that was

806
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: a part of it. It was just like, man, he's let

807
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: us down. You know, how could you get himself in that?

808
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: S let your teammates down, the football club, your family,

809
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: hold on people, basically everyone that you love and close to.

810
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: You feel like you've let down one hundred percent. Not

811
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: it felt like I felt like I did. I did

812
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: let them down. I let everyone down. So everyone who

813
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: had my back supported me, love and respected me. I

814
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: felt like I just through do it in their face.

815
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: It's a really hard pill to swallow too, because I'm

816
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: a loyal friend, and you know you love hard and

817
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 2: you know people who support you, you support them back as well.

818
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 2: So for me to be able to understand through remote

819
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: actions what I did and the impact that I had

820
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: on a lot of people. It was It's a tough one.

821
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: How hard were you on yourself? What was what was

822
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: going through your mind with this? What were you thinking

823
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: about yourself?

824
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: I've just ruined I've ruined my family, Like I'm going

825
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: to not be able to play football anymore. I'm going

826
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: to be able to take that income away from us

827
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: and you know, to be able to support my family.

828
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: I've literally ripped that away from them. So that figuring

829
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: out how and what am I going to do to

830
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 2: be able to try to get this back and to

831
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: be able to support them and to be able to

832
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 2: make sure they're okay. And still I was still on

833
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: the AFL list and still allowed to play football, but

834
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: in the back of my mind, I had this court

835
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: case hanging over my head, so would focus on doing

836
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: what I needed to do and obviously, and then the

837
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: writing was on the wall and eventually got delisted by

838
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 2: Richmond at the end of two thousand and seven.

839
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and then you went through the court matter

840
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: you were convicted of it.

841
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So there's one district's football club. They were

842
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: the only I didn't really have. I were talking about

843
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: setting ourselves up post football and that transition. I didn't

844
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: utilize my time as I spoke about as well as

845
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: I should have. Really didn't have too many skills besides football,

846
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: and no one really wanted to go and near me

847
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: because I had this court case hanging over my head.

848
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: This one Districts footy club was the only club that

849
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: really showed some interest and wanted to try to support me.

850
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: I remember catching up with the CEO and some other

851
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: people of the football club and them speaking about how

852
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: they wanted me involved, but I was I was just

853
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 2: blank thinking, what do you want to waste your time

854
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 2: because I'll probably be going to jail. So I remember

855
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: saying that articles and See at the time said well

856
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: we'll cross that bridge room and get there, So that

857
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: that sort of that was like, yeah, like these guys

858
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: want to really support men. They have my best interest

859
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: at heart, and what I feel terrible because I'm not

860
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: going to be able to do too much for him.

861
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like I know I can't do

862
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: too much. I don't really want to take this opportunity

863
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 2: because I know I can't give a whole lot back,

864
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: but I felt like, Okay, if there's an opportunity for

865
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: me to be able to try to play some good

866
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: foot and support them, you know, on field and get

867
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 2: apart be involved in some of the First Nation's programs

868
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: which had some really good ones at that stage in

869
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 2: the football club and involved there and some mentoring programs.

870
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: I'd do the best that I could to be able

871
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: to support that. But I only played I think six

872
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 2: or seven games. Went to trial two thousand and eight

873
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: in June, and then as you mentioned, dere got found

874
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 2: guilty and sentenced to thirty two months with a minimum

875
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: parole period of sixteen months.

876
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: Okay, it took us through that was the joint trial.

877
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: Was your brother and you tried together. Yeah, so both

878
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: convicted yep, and.

879
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: Then straight to custody, my brother who had sixteen on

880
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: with a minimum parole period of eight months. Yeah months. Yeah.

881
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's going through the trial, you know, you're

882
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: still thinking about how you've let people down, but then

883
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 2: also hearing about the incident and how it happened from

884
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: someone else's perspective and hearing what you did and how

885
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: you did it, and it's.

886
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: As a wake up.

887
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: It is a wake up corner. I was disgusting in myself.

888
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: You know, it's like that. I you know, people sometimes think, oh,

889
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 2: you're a bad person. I don't think I'm a bad person.

890
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: I thought I made a mistake and I did the

891
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: wrong thing. I chose to do the wrong thing. So

892
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: and then you're thinking of he am I that bad

893
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: a person?

894
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing to hang on to, Andrew,

895
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: because if we all make mistakes, and if you make

896
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: a mistake and think you're a bad person, you've virtually

897
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: become a self fulfilling prophecy. You keep telling yourself you're

898
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: a bad person, you follow that path, the fact that

899
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: you're smart enough to I'm a good person. I've done

900
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: a bad thing. That's a that's a good way of

901
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: looking at it.

902
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, and I appreciate that. And that's and after

903
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: hearing everything in court, for you for me to be

904
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: able to think, yeah, that is terrible, but that's not me.

905
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: I know I did the wrong thing, but that's had

906
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: this picture their painting of me. That's not entirely that's

907
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: I know, that's not me as a person. Yes, I'm accountable,

908
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: Yes I did the wrong thing. Yes I need to

909
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: be accountable for my actions and what comes from this

910
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: comes from it. I've got to deal with it, because

911
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 2: that's that's the accountability I need to take. So looking

912
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: over at family members who come and supported me through

913
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 2: the whole trial the last day, you know, it's Mum, Dad,

914
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: antis looking over and seeing them and seeing the tears

915
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 2: flow from their eyes sort of, I'll get a bit

916
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: emotional talking about it. And it was just so hard

917
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: to watch. And you know they remember the officers told

918
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: me to come over and you could give them a

919
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: hug or just you know, I shake the hands and

920
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: I did it for like two seconds, and I felt,

921
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, I just felt so bad with what I've

922
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 2: done and how I let everyone down and I had

923
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: to get away. I'll just you know, I'll speak to

924
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 2: you whenever again.

925
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: That guilt and shape it was.

926
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 2: And then not only that, my baby brother's in trouble

927
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: because of me as well, Like that's another you carry,

928
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: it's another layer as well as well. My brother's in

929
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: jail because of me, you know. So that's a hard

930
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: you know, that's a tough one to be able to

931
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: take as well. And you know we've already touched on it,

932
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: but to the negative impact that your actions have, you know,

933
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: but then still to understand, well, you know, I didn't

934
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: figure out obviously, there wasn't me thinking Okay, how am

935
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: I going to get out of this? Is just trying

936
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: to process, Okay, this is where I am right now,

937
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: how do I how do I go about things? Obviously

938
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: we've got taken down to the cells and it was

939
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 2: on the news straight away, so as soon as we

940
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: went down there within probably half an hour, so looking

941
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: up at the TV screen and they're guilty and you

942
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: know you've been sentenced, and the jail, the ride to

943
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: be able to go to prison from the courthouse, it

944
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: was just a dark, dark van and blokes were just

945
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: yearning like it was nothing. You don't go into prison.

946
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 2: And I just couldn't believe the situation that I was in.

947
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: I didn't speak a word. I was just looking at

948
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: the ground. You could hardly breathe. It was hot in

949
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: the back of the van. And then all of a

950
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: sudden sudden we get to hat here and we get

951
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 2: processed to go through. So it's just a whole sense

952
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: of feeling numb. Obviously my brother was beside me, but

953
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: you know, and all these other emotions going through me.

954
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: It's a shame, the guilt, you know, the people that

955
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: you've let down, and then all of a sudden, well

956
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: this is going to be home for a bit now.

957
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: So getting processed, you know, the other prisoners and other

958
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: people getting processed as well, looking at you, trying to

959
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: test you out. And obviously people knew me because I

960
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: played footy as well.

961
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: So that's the thing. You come in there with a

962
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: bit of a target because your high profile and JERL

963
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: can be a scary place and you go in there

964
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: in that environment, you wouldn't know what was going to happen.

965
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: To the unknown, the unknown is always scary. It's obviously

966
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: his stories and obviously knowing that Dad, you know, bench

967
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: through the same thing, and even Dad, I remember getting

968
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: some advice off him, and I look back on it

969
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: now it wasn't wasn't the greatest, but at least it

970
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: was honest. I said, I'm able to how do I

971
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: what should my mindset be help? So I think about things?

972
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: He said, expect the worst and hope for the best,

973
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: and that was my that was my response as well.

974
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: I had a giggle. I was like, well that doesn't

975
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: help me, but it's honest. And so my my thinking was, well,

976
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to jail no matter what, and that that

977
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: was the case, and but then to be able to

978
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,959
Speaker 2: actually hear it as well was it was hard again

979
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: to be able to process. So uh, getting processed your fingerprints,

980
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 2: you're getting given your clothes and then escorted to your cell.

981
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 2: Walking down those corridors were just dark, and you know,

982
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: you can all you can hear is the jingling of

983
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: the keys, and you know the footsteps of the officers boots.

984
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: You get to your prison cell and all of a

985
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: sudden it opens up. Get ushered in. Other takes wants

986
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: to take the bottom bunk, and it didn't have no

987
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: discussion for me, and I jumped up top. And then

988
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: you hear this. You know, you're getting the plate of

989
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 2: food and sausage dyer looks like it's been there for

990
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 2: a week, and some other food and obviously didn't have

991
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: an appetite. Then all of a sudden, another jingle of

992
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: the keys, and the huge steel door just locks, and

993
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: I remember putting my hand on the door and obviously

994
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: it's not moving and it's not going nowhere. This is

995
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: going to be home for the next sixteen months. Getting

996
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: up on top on the bunk bed, and you're seeing

997
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: all the etchings and people that have been in the

998
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: cell before me and graving their name in the walls,

999
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: and you know, all that kind of stuff, and then

1000
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: getting up on top, and you know, the roof was

1001
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: about a half a foot away from my face, so

1002
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: you felt claustrophobic, and looking down at my clothes and

1003
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: understanding the greens that I've got on and touching the

1004
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: greens and this is reality. This is home for the

1005
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: next sixteen months at least. Scary, really scary.

1006
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: It's an intimidating hard place. Prisons just by the nature,

1007
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: but the layout of them that can be very much.

1008
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: So you're looking at the heavy steel gates and it

1009
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: just it's foreign. It's foreign to the way most people,

1010
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: most people live. Hey, guys, sorry for the interruption. I

1011
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: know that can be annoying, but I just wanted to

1012
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: jump in here and thank you for listening to this episode. Now,

1013
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: before we get back into the interview, I'm going to

1014
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: talk to you about crimex Plus. If you subscribe to

1015
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: crimex Plus, you'll get access to my podcast not only early,

1016
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: but also add free. On top of that, you get

1017
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: special access to other true crime podcasts like preyed Upon.

1018
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: That's where a team of reporters have delved deeply into

1019
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: the secretive and shocking world of cults operating right here

1020
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: in Australia. Listen to this podcast and follow the gripping

1021
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: investigation into the disturbing world of these extreme religious groups.

1022
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: You're going to hear harrowing stories of survival from those

1023
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: who are lucky enough to escape the cults, as well

1024
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: as the reaction from these award winning journalists. Search for

1025
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: preyed Upon on crimex plus on Apple Podcasts. It's preyed

1026
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: Upon on Crime x plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, let's

1027
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: get back into this interview. I noticed in an article,

1028
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of articles that were written

1029
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: about it, and one thing you relied on the philosophy

1030
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: that you learn through your football You can only control

1031
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: what you can control. Someone had given you that advice

1032
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: when you're playing football, and that you're equated on saying that.

1033
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: Is that the type of attitude you took in the prison, Well,

1034
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: this is my environment. I can't worry about things I

1035
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: can't control.

1036
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: Not initially it obviously, just you know, you probably have

1037
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: that bit of blame and thinking this wouldn't happen, but

1038
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: I would have done this, And there was a little

1039
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: bit of that initially, and then I got to a

1040
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 2: point it might have been I'm not quite sure, maybe

1041
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: three or four weeks and you know, maybe a bit

1042
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: longer than thinking well, hang on, you know, the only

1043
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 2: person that bame here is me. I'm the one who

1044
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: stuffed up. I'm the one who chose to do what

1045
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: I did. No matter other dynamics or whatever happened, what

1046
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 2: other people have done, They're not the reason why I'm here.

1047
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: I am. And then that's our sports psychologists when I

1048
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: was at Richmond to live by that only control what

1049
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: you can control. So once I got to that mindset

1050
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: and then thinking okay, well I can't control how long

1051
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: I'm here for. It's at least sixteen months. Obviously there's

1052
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 2: a few hurdles I've got to get over to be

1053
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: able to try to get my parole. But that's what

1054
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to work towards. What's my day look like,

1055
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: how do I go about my day? What sort of

1056
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: routine and instructure I'm going to have. You know, obviously,

1057
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: prison politics, you know that's well and truly happens in there.

1058
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: And to be able to try to steer clear of that,

1059
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: and you know, just to be able to do my

1060
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 2: own thing, do my own time, and go about it

1061
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 2: that way. So it took a little bit for me

1062
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: to be able to get to that mindset and put

1063
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: those things in place so I could try to do

1064
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: whatever I could to be able to make my prison

1065
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: sentence as smooth as possible. But you know, control what

1066
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: I could control.

1067
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: Control and even use it to your advantage, as in, yeah,

1068
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: turn your life around. Initial impressions of the inmates and

1069
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: initial impressions of corrective services officers when you first came

1070
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: in there in those early days, what did you think

1071
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: of the other inmates?

1072
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 2: You didn't know what to think, like, but something like

1073
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: I knew a few people in there, but then other

1074
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: blokes were just like, you don't know whether they're coming

1075
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: down on drugs, and obviously you know a few blokes.

1076
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a scary experience as well.

1077
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: You never know what other guys are thinking or you know, like,

1078
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: as you said, I've got a bit of a target

1079
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: on their back. Do they want to try to have

1080
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 2: a crack so you or you say something or do something.

1081
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: You never know what's going to happen? So it was

1082
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: just a really you had to have you it. It's

1083
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: about you to be able to you know, the situations

1084
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 2: you could try to get yourself into and people around

1085
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: you and you know, oh, this spoke's getting a bit close.

1086
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: What's he trying to do here? Or you know anything

1087
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: or the s folk's talking a bit too much or

1088
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: his tones a little bit changing, you know, what's to

1089
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: go on? What's happening here? Could he be related to

1090
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: the person hyper alert? Absolutely? You know you're just on

1091
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 2: edge about anything and with the prison office or from

1092
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: growing up, you know, you probably didn't have the best

1093
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: experiences and probably you know, to be able to understand

1094
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: what prison offices do and how they are you just

1095
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: as a young father, you just think, well, you're there

1096
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: like on a founding member up, so the perception of

1097
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: them probably wasn't the greatest, but yeah, you just thought that, well,

1098
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to be on their bad side.

1099
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: So you know, it's just going to be able to

1100
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: understand the It's like understanding the rules of the game

1101
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: and to be able to understand what you can and

1102
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: can't do. You know, if you do the wrong thing,

1103
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: with prison officers, you're going to make it hard for yourself.

1104
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 2: So I just try to make sure that I did

1105
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: clear of that and did what I only did what

1106
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: I could do. But yeah, the impression impressions were not

1107
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,439
Speaker 2: much in prison officers, just to see clear of them,

1108
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 2: and then you know, you know with inmates too. If

1109
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: I didn't really know, I'm I wasn't going to be

1110
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: trying to be overly friendly.

1111
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: We'll talk through all the experiences that you had had

1112
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: in prison. But I just want to make this comment

1113
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: that it was a cop for thirty years, so I

1114
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: was going in the prisons on different things and speaking

1115
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: to people in the in prison. But since I've left

1116
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: the cops, I had an opportunity of going into maximum

1117
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: security prison and correct Services in New South Wales gave

1118
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: me the opportunity to have a look around for a

1119
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: couple of weeks had free reign, and my perception of

1120
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: what goes on in prisons changed the longer I spent

1121
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: in there. That there's so much interaction between the inmates

1122
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: and the corrective services officers or the prison officers that

1123
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: they're almost all in this together, aren't they, And they

1124
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: can have a big impact an attitude of a prison

1125
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: officer can impact on the attitude of inmates and vice versa.

1126
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And probably through my first part of my

1127
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: incarceration where I was I didn't have too much interaction,

1128
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: And when I probably started to have a little bit

1129
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 2: more interaction was when I was rated as a minimum

1130
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: security prisoner and then transferred to a medium sorry minimum facility,

1131
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 2: and then with the wreck officers and some other officers

1132
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 2: is probably not as highly strung as a maximum facility

1133
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: on edge. You know, you're out on a farm and

1134
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: even for yourself, you're walking out in the sun, you're

1135
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 2: getting fresh air. You know, you're not locked up in

1136
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: a cell those big steel doors I spoke about when

1137
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: I first went in. You're not locked up by that,

1138
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: So you're probably your guards not up as it was

1139
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: as much. But then the interactions that you had obviously

1140
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 2: the respect that you needed to have, but then also

1141
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: understanding the prison offices they've got a job to do,

1142
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: but then they have that balance as well. The ones

1143
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: that I sort of got to know pretty well, and

1144
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: you know, true, did you like a person and you know,

1145
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: had that respect as well, didn't just you're not You're

1146
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 2: not just another number. Or prisoner in there. So that's

1147
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 2: I suppose you know once I was hearted to have

1148
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: those interactions a little bit more and get to know

1149
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: me and being involved in some other sporting activities and

1150
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: programs they had within the prison system. There, you know,

1151
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: you could actually see the human side of them that

1152
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: I didn't previously see.

1153
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: Is that that's interesting? Isn't that you see the human side?

1154
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: But I think for someone that's you, you're walked in there,

1155
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: tripping over your bottom lip and feeling pretty down, the

1156
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: fact that someone can show you some humanity meant a

1157
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: lot to Yeah.

1158
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: That's right, and then like to make those connections we

1159
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: spoke about before, you know, who's your mob, where you're from,

1160
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: or I know this person. So prison office has been

1161
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 2: there for a fair while, so no doubt had known

1162
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 2: some family members that came through and to be able

1163
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: to make that connection and then all of a sudden,

1164
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 2: you know, they might be able to say, oh, yep,

1165
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: I got in too much trouble, but boy could he

1166
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 2: play footy or he could play cricket. And that was

1167
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 2: a few of the conversations I had. So then your

1168
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 2: guards down a little bit more. So he knows a

1169
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 2: family member of mine, so and he's talking well about them,

1170
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 2: so you're sort of having a bit more of a

1171
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: chat with him, and you know you're not you don't

1172
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 2: have that, I suppose the normal perception of you know,

1173
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: you're an office, I'm not going to talk to you.

1174
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 2: I'm a prisoner. Well we'll just leave it as that,

1175
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 2: you know.

1176
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: So it's breaking down those barriers. And I look, I

1177
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: would imagine from an inmate's point of view that were

1178
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: a crew of them that gay. You shouldn't be speaking

1179
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: to corrective services officers, and I imagine there's some old school,

1180
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, corrective services officers, so you shouldn't be speaking

1181
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: to the inmates. There's blue and there's green, and never

1182
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: the two should meet. But it's evolving.

1183
00:52:59,760 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: Then.

1184
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: I'm really interested, and we'll dig into it in part two.

1185
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: How that impacted on you, Whether you could have gone

1186
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: one way or the other, depending on your experience in prison,

1187
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: because you're really you're at that point. Your life was

1188
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: at the crossroads, wasn't it. You could have gone in

1189
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: there and come out angry, blame everyone else other than

1190
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: yourself for what put you in there, and and probably

1191
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: just stuffed up again.

1192
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: I could have hated the world. Absolutely, it was everyone

1193
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 2: else's fault but mine. But what I've learned through my

1194
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: footy years and growing up and you know, taken accountability

1195
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: that I couldn't. It just wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't

1196
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 2: in my psyche to be able to have that. And

1197
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: even if I did feel like that for a bit

1198
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: of might pull your head and that's not right, you know,

1199
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 2: get back on track, you know. So so yeah, absolutely

1200
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: I could have. You know, obviously there's there's times as

1201
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 2: well where you've spoken about that. Prisoners going there and

1202
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: meet other prisoners and then all of a sudden they

1203
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: might come out with some other knowledge that isn't great

1204
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: and probably make them off a little bit worse than

1205
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: they did come in. So I try to make my time.

1206
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: Yes I was a prisoner, but then you know, and

1207
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 2: even other prisoners to be able to understand. And you know,

1208
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: some people see prisoners and think, oh, they're terrible people.

1209
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 2: You know that, you know, you know they did this,

1210
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: they did that. But then there's so many other dynamics

1211
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 2: that are involved for people to be able to get

1212
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 2: into a situation where they are where they have to

1213
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 2: commit crimes and things like that, and I'm not saying

1214
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do, but then I think

1215
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 2: with myself and having a young family, to have that

1216
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: care factor and to be able to understand prisoner's point

1217
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: of views too. But then also corrective services or or

1218
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 2: you know, prison officers, you know what they have to

1219
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 2: do as well. So yes, they have to be hard,

1220
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 2: they have to draw the line, don't take it personal

1221
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 2: because that's what they do because if they do the

1222
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: wrong thing, then they have to answer higher above and

1223
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 2: then if they sometimes you know, loss of privileges could

1224
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 2: be the consequence because of that. So it was a

1225
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 2: little bit hard to be able to understand, but then

1226
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: to to then to be able to figure out, okay,

1227
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: you know, I could have come out the other side

1228
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 2: the worse, worse off for you know, not with a

1229
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: positive mindset. But I just know my driving force and

1230
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: my my you know, for me to be able to

1231
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 2: get better for my kids and want to be out

1232
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: for my kids. So everything was around that. So everything

1233
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 2: if even if I wasn't if I might have had

1234
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: a not the greatest interaction with an officer, everything came

1235
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: back to my kids, like I can't do this because

1236
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: I might not see my kids. I might not be

1237
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: able to talk to them, So I'm not going to

1238
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: be able to do anything wrong that's going to get

1239
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,479
Speaker 2: in the way of me and not seeing my kids.

1240
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 1: Well, that's where I think people find the inspiration from

1241
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 1: your story in that you were at that moment where

1242
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: life would have gone over way and you talk about

1243
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: accountability and you've used that worth a few times, and

1244
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: I think it shows that, Okay, I've accepted I've made

1245
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: the mistake and I want to make a change. We'll

1246
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: take a break now, Andrew, but when we get back,

1247
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what actually takes place when

1248
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: you're inside the prison and how you use that to

1249
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: your advantage, and what you've done since you've you've got

1250
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: out of prison.

1251
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: I was looking forward to Garrett.

1252
00:55:52,680 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: Cheers.