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Speaker 1: John Howard, welcome to straight Talk.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I am very happy to be with you.

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Speaker 2: I won't use that sort of you know, the riga

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Speaker 2: good to be with you expression when people are interviewed

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Speaker 2: on TV these days.

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Speaker 3: It's actually it's a great privilege actually to be honest

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Speaker 3: here for me to sit here, and I'm not trying to,

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Speaker 3: you know, do the usual thing. I'm sure everybody says

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Speaker 3: that to you, but you know, someone who's been around

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Speaker 3: a long time, in my case and your case too,

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Speaker 3: I remember you back in the treasurer days, and a

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Speaker 3: long time ago it was, and it was I was

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Speaker 3: in my twenties, early twenties, and I remember you one time.

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Speaker 1: You're a young treasurer, you.

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Speaker 3: Hosting something for the Australia, for the Tax Institute of

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Speaker 3: Australia or something like that. I got to be right,

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Speaker 3: and I was a member and it was held at

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Speaker 3: the Hilton Hotel and you you were like all it.

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Speaker 2: Was Friday and Business Review. I didn't you didn't like

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Speaker 2: the tax system because of made your pay tax? Yes,

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Speaker 2: totally yeah, And I thought Kerry Packer got taxed right

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Speaker 2: when he said that. You know, you don't queue up

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Speaker 2: to donate extra.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, and to some extent in his following comment

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Speaker 3: was and I don't think you use it very well

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Speaker 3: or you spend it very well, or something along those lines.

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Speaker 1: They collect, he said, you have to have.

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Speaker 2: And you're not doing such a great job.

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Speaker 1: That's what it was.

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Speaker 2: They're queuing up to donate extra.

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Speaker 3: And I have to tell you you look great for

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Speaker 3: someone of your vintage.

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Speaker 1: Are you still walking?

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Speaker 2: I still walk and everything. I'm lucky got reasonably good genes. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm still perpendicular. That helps better than the alternative.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely end you and you probably were how old in

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Speaker 3: now eighty five or ready six?

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Speaker 2: Sick? I turned eighty six in July. Wow, well I

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Speaker 2: just had lunch with somebody who was close to ten

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Speaker 2: years older than that.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's well. And I presume still and he was.

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Speaker 2: As sharp as attack. So give me a goal. My

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Speaker 2: wife said to me that there are what three former

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Speaker 2: prime ministers who reached ninety or more, So your immediate

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Speaker 2: goal is to make that four. So I think that's

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Speaker 2: a reasonable goal. It's only four years off, but four

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Speaker 2: years at the age of eighty six, it's quite an eternity.

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Speaker 1: And you're very sharp still. Oh you feel good?

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Speaker 2: A lot of people, fifty percent of the population never

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Speaker 2: thought I was a loose bit sharp.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course they didn't vote for you, but they

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Speaker 3: were never going to vote for you anyone you're respected.

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Speaker 1: Do you mind if I just asked you this? See

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Speaker 1: where did you grow up?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in the suburb of Ullwood, which is

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Speaker 2: near Camps in Canterbury, and I attended Elward Public School

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Speaker 2: and Canterbury Boys High School. And I lived in Irwood

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Speaker 2: until I married and I was thirty one or something.

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Speaker 1: And your parents my mother and father.

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Speaker 2: My father was born in a place called Cowper on

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Speaker 2: the Northern Rivers area of New South Wales, and he

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Speaker 2: was apprenticed as a fitter and turner at the see

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Speaker 2: As Sugar Mill in Harward Island and he left that

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Speaker 2: at the age of nineteen to go and fight in

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Speaker 2: World War One. He volunteered for service and he was

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Speaker 2: gassed in Belgium and he recovered but affected him and

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Speaker 2: he when he came back, he established a garage business

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Speaker 2: near Dulichill Station.

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Speaker 1: You mean like petrol station, pedal station, they call it

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Speaker 1: a garage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He actually he was a.

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Speaker 2: Qualified motor mechanics, so he fixed cars and in those days,

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Speaker 2: private car private entrepreneurs provided certifications when you wanted to

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Speaker 2: register your car, so it was a case of being

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Speaker 2: It was nationalized by I don't know who. I always

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Speaker 2: thought that was a sort of an unnecessary regression. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: Dad did that, and my very first job was serving

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Speaker 2: petrol that dad's garage, and he had what was called

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Speaker 2: a multiple service. He had He had a shell pump

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Speaker 2: and a mobile gas pump and csr ampole plump, different Atlantic,

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Speaker 2: different ones. And then later on he signed up with

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Speaker 2: one of your companies. But it was a different business there.

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Speaker 2: And I enjoyed working at a garage. I did a lot.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed a lot. I was paid what I described

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Speaker 2: as son's rates.

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Speaker 1: That can't be good.

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Speaker 2: No, no, they the Industrial Relations Commission would have gone

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Speaker 2: berserk about them, but I didn't. I thought it was

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Speaker 2: a great privilege to do it.

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Speaker 1: And your and your mom did she work or she?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: No, mom was that time.

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Speaker 2: I was the youngest of four boys in the family

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Speaker 2: and Mum was a what is now called a full

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Speaker 2: time homemaker. She worked out and she was a wonderful woman.

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Speaker 2: Both my parents were My father died only sixteen and

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Speaker 2: my mum lived to the age of about eighty and

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Speaker 2: they were great parents, and they were sort of fiercely patriotic,

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Speaker 2: pro monarchist, conservative voting people that he ever voted differently

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Speaker 2: on one occasion from each other. That is, in the

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Speaker 2: referendum in nineteen fifty one to abolish the Communist Party,

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Speaker 2: my father voted yes, which was what Menzies wed. He's

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Speaker 2: in the prime minister. My mother vo didn't know. She

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Speaker 2: just sort of thought that you didn't ban anything, and well,

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Speaker 2: it didn't ban any opinions.

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Speaker 3: Because most people would not know how serious the view

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Speaker 3: on the Communist Party was in period one.

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Speaker 2: You've got to understand in nineteen fifty one, the world

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Speaker 2: was well into the Cold War. It had only been

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Speaker 2: less than two years since mountsa Toong took over in China.

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Speaker 2: And when you think of them threat that China and

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Speaker 2: our posers and the preoccupation of the world would China's power,

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Speaker 2: particularly in our region, and the Korean War, which involved

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Speaker 2: communists North Korea invading the South and also involved China

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Speaker 2: entering the war when the Allied forces large but not

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Speaker 2: only Aecans had driven north to the border between North

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Speaker 2: Korea and China and the Yalu River. It was pretty

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Speaker 2: hecked and a lot of people thought at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I was only about twelve, and I thought, Jesus

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Speaker 2: will get carried, and Mum and Dad just disagreed. They didn't.

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Speaker 2: I remember them had a bit of a what I

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Speaker 2: would call a lively discussion about it on the kitchen

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Speaker 2: table one night, and my mother made it very clear

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Speaker 2: that she would make up her own mind. Not that

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Speaker 2: my father was trying to convince. He was just putting

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Speaker 2: his point of view and he said okay, and that

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Speaker 2: was that.

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Speaker 1: So you went to University of Sydney I think it was,

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Speaker 1: and you did a law degree.

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Speaker 2: I did a straight law degree. In those days. You

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Speaker 2: didn't have to do an arts or economics degree you

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Speaker 2: could do beforehand. You could do it, Laura as a graduate. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just like it was just like a single degree. Four

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Speaker 2: years and I got an LLB from Sydney University and

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Speaker 2: I was articled after the first two years. And I

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Speaker 2: was articled to a wonderful man, Maya Rosenbloom, who played

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Speaker 2: rugby for Australia and his son Rupert played rugby for

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Speaker 2: Rupert I'm thinking of Yes, he was one of the

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Speaker 2: most remarkable people I met. He was Polly math is

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Speaker 2: probably not the right description, but he was a great solicitor,

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Speaker 2: a good business head, could speak several languages, and he

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Speaker 2: held the state hammer throw record and represented Australia at

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Speaker 2: what was then known as the Empire Games Hurdles. And

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Speaker 2: on top of all of that, he was a good lawyer.

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Speaker 2: And I learned a lot from him.

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Speaker 3: And how is though a young man goes from a

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Speaker 3: family growing up in a wood, going to Canterbury Boys

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Speaker 3: High and then you know working class area parents are

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Speaker 3: why did you become a sect?

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Speaker 2: Would call Allward was what you would call a lower

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Speaker 2: middle class area. How I best describe it would be

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Speaker 2: in a good year, the Liberal Party would poll fifty

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Speaker 2: two percent at the local public school. In a bad

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Speaker 2: year we'd poll forty seven or forty eight. So it

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Speaker 2: was pretty even. It wasn't strong labor, but it certainly

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Speaker 2: wasn't a blue ribbon area. And I moves a nice suburban.

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Speaker 2: I was very happy living there because I.

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Speaker 1: Grew up in the punch bowl.

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Speaker 2: The Canberra, well, the punch Bowl would be more labor more.

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Speaker 3: And it was one of the juraks I can't remember

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Speaker 3: which Durak was like the members and it was part

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Speaker 3: of the Stuart family.

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Speaker 2: Correct, the Stuarts of Canterbury yep, like the Kennedys of

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Speaker 2: Canterbury is a.

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Speaker 1: Very strong Catholic family, a.

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Speaker 2: Very strong and very strong rugby league. Yeah, because the

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Speaker 2: father of Frank and Kevin was the president of the

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Speaker 2: Canterbury banks Down Rugby League for many years and launched

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Speaker 2: O Covings. And it was the pattern of those days

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Speaker 2: more so than now. If you were if you saw

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Speaker 2: yourself as working class, you followed rugby league. And it's

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Speaker 2: true that until probably the nineteen nineties eighty nineties, the

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Speaker 2: overwhelming majority of Catholics in Australia voted Labor, not for

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Speaker 2: any doc trial reason. It was just that they did.

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Speaker 2: They were so they were socioeconomic reasons. They were less

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Speaker 2: well off than many others and they identified more immediately

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Speaker 2: because of that with the Labor Party. But that changed

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Speaker 2: the big changed, big time during the period that I

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Speaker 2: was in Parliament.

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Speaker 1: We did your brothers. So you've got four.

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Speaker 2: I had three older brothers, the oldest two of them

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Speaker 2: are now deceased. The next oldest one who is eighty nine,

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Speaker 2: maybe eighty nine, and go you a good thing, Go

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Speaker 2: you good thing? You want him to keeping good thing? Yeah, labor,

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Speaker 2: but he's good. It doesn't matter. We're good friends. He

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Speaker 2: good Blackball. We get together regularly and chat about politics,

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Speaker 2: and he lives in like art. We go around to

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Speaker 2: the local coffee shop and solve the problems.

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Speaker 1: Of the world.

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Speaker 3: Do you think though it was an unusual thing, because

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Speaker 3: I know it was an unusual thing in where I

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Speaker 3: grew up for a young person in those environments. But

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Speaker 3: would punch bowl wherever to end up in a law school,

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Speaker 3: like you know, for me, I actually want to become

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Speaker 3: a brick layer, but my mother drave me to the university.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't a thing in where I grew up like

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Speaker 3: the other kids weren't doing it. Nobody else seemed to

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Speaker 3: be doing going to university to become a professional. Why

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Speaker 3: did you decide you want to go and become a

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Speaker 3: lawyer or is it just because you matriculated a lot of.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Canterbury Boys High School was a selective high

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Speaker 2: sto for that area, for the Canterbury Banks Down Saint

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Speaker 2: George area, along with Sydney Tech. Sydney Tech's most probably

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Speaker 2: most famous product of that era was reg Gas, right,

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Speaker 2: yeah he was. And but you know a lot of

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Speaker 2: my classmates went to university in those days. To get

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Speaker 2: to the university you had to pass five subjects, one

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Speaker 2: of which was English, and I managed to do that

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Speaker 2: just and I got there and on the first year,

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Speaker 2: my mother was able to pay my fees. Second year,

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Speaker 2: I picked up a Commonwealth scholarship, which meant my fees

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Speaker 2: were paid, and I picked it up because somebody else

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Speaker 2: had dropped it. And I completed my law degree and

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Speaker 2: in my articles and articles.

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Speaker 1: Being like an apprenticeship weship.

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Speaker 2: For a lawyer. Yeah, you go in Georgia system and

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Speaker 2: you weren't paid much, but then you weren't worth much. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but your loan a lot. You learned a hell of

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Speaker 2: a lot. I learned a lot from my He was

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Speaker 2: a very good teacher.

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Speaker 3: And then so you worked a lot in the legal

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Speaker 3: environment for five ten years or something along those lanes.

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Speaker 2: Well, I worked after I left law school. I finished

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Speaker 2: my article, and then I got a job with a firm,

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Speaker 2: a large firm, very good firm, and then I went

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Speaker 2: abroad when I was twenty four. I did the usual

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Speaker 2: thing of going to London and working there. For a

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Speaker 2: while and then doing Europe, and I worked with a

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Speaker 2: firm of solicitors in Ilford in Essex, just not far

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Speaker 2: out of London, and but a lot of time at

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Speaker 2: the Stratford Magistrate's Court, which was close to the east

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Speaker 2: end of London. And he had usual collection of characters

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Speaker 2: as you would get at the Waverley Police Court whatever.

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Speaker 2: And that was all part of life's experience. And I

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Speaker 2: met some interesting people and a couple of friends of mine,

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Speaker 2: and I happened to be in London when Winston Churchill died.

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Speaker 2: He died at the age of ninety in nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 2: and I remember standing at the foot of Bloodgate Hill

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Speaker 2: and watching his funeral procession go by, and along with

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Speaker 2: an English girl that I was seeing a bit at

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Speaker 2: the time, I went back to her family's home and

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Speaker 2: listened to a few speeches from the crypt of Saint Paul.

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Speaker 2: The one of them was delivered by MENSI, who was

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Speaker 2: in of course Prime still Prime mi at attended the

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Speaker 2: funeral and he was so eloquently all the English people

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Speaker 2: that I can we have him? I said, no chance.

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Speaker 2: So that's and I came back.

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Speaker 1: And were you inspired listening to Mensies.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I thought Menzies was a great orator. He is

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Speaker 2: the best political orator I've ever heard. He was terrific.

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Speaker 2: He was magisterially, he had a deep, resident voice, and

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Speaker 2: he commanded things. And it's often comparisons made between him

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Speaker 2: and Winston Churchill. I've studied the speaking methods and it

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Speaker 2: is very different. He was a better stump orator, if

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Speaker 2: I put the Churchill wrote all his speeches and they

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Speaker 2: were wonderfully inspirational. Me the language was terrific. But Mensies

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Speaker 2: could command the presence in a hall or whatever splendidly. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so what inspired you then to think about politics?

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Speaker 3: Or you always interested in the policic I.

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Speaker 2: Was always interested. I remember when I was at school

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Speaker 2: in the last year though, teachers said English, get which one?

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Speaker 2: So I want age of year boys to write out

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Speaker 2: the three occupations that you'd like to embrace. And I

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Speaker 2: write a lawyer, journalist, and detective. I suppose you can

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Speaker 2: sort of see some connection between the detective and the journalist.

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Speaker 2: And I was always interested in journalism as a profession.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a very important part of our social fabric.

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Speaker 2: A good journalist and there are plenty of them, in

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Speaker 2: Australia and the rest of the world is a great asset.

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Speaker 2: And we've had some wonderful journalists in Australia.

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Speaker 3: And so, but did you at some stage get inspired

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Speaker 3: to become two It's like can become one of the young.

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Speaker 2: Liberals or ways interested in politics because we talked politics

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Speaker 2: at home and being the youngest in the family, I

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Speaker 2: absorbed all the talk. And my dad, I think partly

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Speaker 2: because of his service in World War One, and he'd

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Speaker 2: been quite an admirer of what Winston Churchill was saying

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties before Churchill became Prime Minister, when

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Speaker 2: Churchill was really out of favor and people thought he

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Speaker 2: was a warmongering rat bag they did. And in fact

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Speaker 2: he owes as much to the Labor Party opposition in

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Speaker 2: Britain and the English Liberals as he does as the

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Speaker 2: Conservative Party. And finally becoming Prime Minister, well, the Conservative

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Speaker 2: Party didn't want him. The British Estate Blishment wanted the

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Speaker 2: then Foreign Minister, Lord Halifax to become the prime minister,

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Speaker 2: but Halifax didn't want it, or perhaps deep down was

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Speaker 2: honest with himself and realized he couldn't do it. And

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Speaker 2: it is said I and will never know that the

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Speaker 2: late king didn't want him either. That was the current

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Speaker 2: king's grandfather, King George George the sixth. Now look in

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Speaker 2: the end, Churchill got it. But when he got it,

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Speaker 2: and it's often Danny matter of not a matter of

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Speaker 2: great significance, or that's interesting for political fanatics that when

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Speaker 2: he became Prime minister he was not actually leader of

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Speaker 2: the Conservative Party. Chamberlain remained a leader of the Conservative

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Speaker 2: Party utterly died six months later.

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Speaker 3: And if because I often wonder about when I think

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Speaker 3: of your prime ministership and also your periods of treasurer,

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Speaker 3: I often think wonder to myself, why was it? What

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Speaker 3: was it about John Howard that made him so popular?

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Speaker 3: Now you know, I'm not here to Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it was all that popular, but towards

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Speaker 2: the laps and on occasions were.

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Speaker 3: But generally speaking, you were. And I talked to people

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Speaker 3: today people still talk about very fondly.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I asked.

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Speaker 3: Her, and next door to us, downstairs next door to

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Speaker 3: us is a real estate agent called Kramer, and his

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Speaker 3: grandfather was your predecessor, Sir Kramer, Sir John Cramer.

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Speaker 2: On real estate. He owned half of Wilston Craft.

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Speaker 1: And he was the benelong predecessor.

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Speaker 2: He was a joke about him. I'm sure it's a

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Speaker 2: joke that he was in the latest stages of his

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Speaker 2: career army minister, and he was reviewing pausing our parade

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Speaker 2: and his huge expanse. He turned around to the commanding officer,

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Speaker 2: Brigadier general, who was taking salute. He said, I was

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Speaker 2: so this would make a wonderful subdivision.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like what Trump's talking about in relation

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Speaker 1: to Palestinea. We won't go.

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Speaker 2: There, so I don't mind if you do.

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Speaker 3: I've got a view, yeah, and I will. I'll bring

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Speaker 3: that a bit later. But Earl did say to Earl Kramer,

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Speaker 3: who's the grandson of Sir John Cramer.

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Speaker 1: Said, he said to me exactly what I said to

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Speaker 1: you a moment ago. He said. He said, I've always liked.

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Speaker 3: John Howard and it would be late sixties and he said,

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Speaker 3: I've always liked John Howard.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, what question would you ask him?

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Speaker 3: So I wouldn't ask him a question, he said, but

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Speaker 3: I'd like to know what from his point of view,

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Speaker 3: from your point of view, what was it in your makeup?

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Speaker 3: Is that your humble beginnings. Is it the fact you

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Speaker 3: you lived in Norwood? I don't know, were you well?

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Speaker 2: I like to think that I was brought up to

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Speaker 2: be you do the right thing a lot to my parents.

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Speaker 2: We were a close family, but we all had our

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Speaker 2: own views, and I remained close to my three older brothers.

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Speaker 2: There was a thirteen year age gap between the eldest

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Speaker 2: and me, and then Stan was nine years and then

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Speaker 2: Bob three, and we were We talked about politics and

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Speaker 2: I just it attracted me. I think from the very

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Speaker 2: beginning I enjoyed public speaking or debating, and that gave

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Speaker 2: me years later in Parliament. I reflected that whatever capacity

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Speaker 2: I had to speak of the car or respond with

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Speaker 2: a degree of spontaneity I had learnt at school. I

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Speaker 2: debated from the second year I was at high school,

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Speaker 2: and I was in the schools debating team which participated

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Speaker 2: in what was called the Human barber With competition, which

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Speaker 2: was the competition between the eight or nine selective high

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Speaker 2: schools Canterbury, Ford Street in North Sydney or Sydney Tech,

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Speaker 2: Sydney High.

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Speaker 1: Sney Boys High.

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Speaker 3: Heah, yeah, So, but John Lake, do you think that

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Speaker 3: you represented certain values?

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Speaker 2: I mean, do you think oh, yes, well had I

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Speaker 2: mean I represented the values of what I called Middle Australia.

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Speaker 2: And I mean I I was certainly not brought up

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Speaker 2: to think the government could solve every problem. If anything,

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Speaker 2: my my father thought that people who were connected with

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Speaker 2: the government were a nuisance rather than no. That was unfair,

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Speaker 2: but it was his experience. Later on, I my wife's

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Speaker 2: father became a very senior public servants in the news,

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Speaker 2: so Wald's government and I and he was a wonderful man,

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Speaker 2: and he ended up being the chief civilian year of

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Speaker 2: the news, well, the Railways department. And you're a very

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Speaker 2: ethical man, very proper. And I suspect although he was read,

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Speaker 2: I suspect you always fad at liberal. But that was

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Speaker 2: the matter for him. But my point is that you

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Speaker 2: can't typecast people. One of the things I learned early on.

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Speaker 2: You can't regard all people who've got a trade union

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Speaker 2: background as being automatically labor, although most of them were

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Speaker 2: equally not everybody in business is anti labor. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: agree with that, particularly more recently, more recently, when I say,

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Speaker 2: last ten fifteen years. Oh, I think the I was

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Speaker 2: certainly brought up to believe in the essential fairness and

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Speaker 2: decency of the average Australian now fairness decency, average Australian.

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Speaker 2: There are words that have flung around, but I think

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Speaker 2: they mean something. And I've met a lot of people

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Speaker 2: on all sides of politics who've fit that category, and

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Speaker 2: I've met a lot who don't, including some in my

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Speaker 2: own party.

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Speaker 1: But I won't come into and I've often.

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Speaker 3: Said good leaders, very good treasurers make good leaders, both

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Speaker 3: at state level and we've seen it on many occasions

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Speaker 3: and at the federal level. Your period as a treasurer,

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Speaker 3: what were your what are your recollections of that period?

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Speaker 2: Oh? It was difficult because I inherited a fiscal position

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Speaker 2: that was worse than I.

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Speaker 1: Expected, as in deficits and debts.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the previous budget which had been I mean,

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Speaker 2: spent too much money and I had to win my

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Speaker 2: first budget.

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Speaker 1: I have to.

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Speaker 2: I had to increase personal income tact, which didn't make

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Speaker 2: me very popular. And then I did some very tricky

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Speaker 2: things with tax avoidance. When I say tricky, imposed what

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Speaker 2: was seen by many people's retrospective methods of collecting unpaid

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Speaker 2: tax that should have been paid in the first place,

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Speaker 2: and that didn't make me very popular in many traditional

401
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Speaker 2: liberal voting areas of Australia was.

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Speaker 3: That around the period with Sergafiell Berwick the Chief Justice

403
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Speaker 3: at the time.

404
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Speaker 2: No, he had had gone before then, although it's fair

405
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Speaker 2: to say that a lot of people said that one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons why tax avoidance flourished was that there

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Speaker 2: was a belief that the so called Barwick dominated High

408
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Speaker 2: Court took an excessively pro taxpayer view of the anti

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Speaker 2: avoidance sections of the Act. Now, I think some of

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Speaker 2: that was unfair. I think some of it was probably

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Speaker 2: a bit accurate, but whatever it was, it was an issue,

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Speaker 2: and I felt that the ordinary taxpayer, whether it an

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Speaker 2: employee of public service or small businesses who did the

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Speaker 2: right thing, had every reason to complain. Yet, on the

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Speaker 2: other hand, there was a lot of truth in what

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Speaker 2: carry Packer said. Not that he was advocating a tax

417
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Speaker 2: of asion, but he was just saying you shouldn't pay

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Speaker 2: more than you have to. Well, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: people believe that. I don't think I probably do. But equally,

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Speaker 2: there are some dodgers that people shouldn't embrace. And I

421
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Speaker 2: remember the time that a couple of very prominent accountants

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Speaker 2: in Sydney wrote to me and said they agreed with

423
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Speaker 2: what I was doing because they didn't like these tax

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00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: avoidance practices. But many of their clients said, why can't

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Speaker 2: you get me one of those schemes, And we felt

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Speaker 2: that we were under increasing pressure to do so.

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Speaker 3: And then we're talking about the seventies and eighties, and

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00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 3: it was it was pretty full on then too, these schemes.

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Speaker 1: And I remember many years that prior.

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Speaker 3: But sigarfu Barwick at one time there in what they

431
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 3: call it an antivoid's case, he made very interesting observation.

432
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: He said, war paint does not make the warrior. And

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Speaker 3: the reason he said that is because people used to

434
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Speaker 3: dress up these schemes.

435
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Speaker 1: It's been something that they weren't.

436
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Speaker 2: Oh well, he was right. And what I set out

437
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: to do was there was a general anti avoidance provision

438
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: in the tax a section two and sixty that said

439
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: that if you the dominant purpose in effect the layman's

440
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: explanation not very good when I'm sorry, but if the

441
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: dominant purpose of the transaction is to avoid tax rather

442
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: than achieve a commercial objective, than its void. Now the

443
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 2: problem became that most people in the tax office, and

444
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: many people in the Professions said around that time that

445
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: the High Court had so interpreted and so read down

446
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: the impact that section two hundred and sixty was virtually worthless.

447
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: So I said to the Tax Commissioner when I became

448
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: Treasure that one of my goals was to rewrite section

449
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: two hundred and sixty to make it more effective. And

450
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: he said, you're wasting your time. The High Court will

451
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: find a way around it. Now, I thought that it

452
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: was just after Barwick had gone. Let me say, I

453
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: thought this was close to the time that he went.

454
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: I thought that was a bit unreasonable, defeatist capitulated. So

455
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: I sat about having it rewritten, and eventually we did,

456
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: and we produced the news section, which in the technicians

457
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: language is called part for a for a And that

458
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 2: seems to have worked. You've obviously studied well.

459
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: I worked in that environment.

460
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: I worked in a law firm that we used to

461
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: advise on those things for many many years.

462
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: You agree with my assessment, Yes, I do before I worked, Yes,

463
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,479
Speaker 2: that still does work. Yeah, I think it's largely stopped,

464
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: not completely, and probably never will perhaps never sure.

465
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: There's always going to be someone who's going to try

466
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: and work around.

467
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: Just part of the to and fro as ofose.

468
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: So you would have been around and I don't know

469
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: what capacity, whether you're in opposition or whether you're in

470
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 3: government at the time. But on the first of July

471
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 3: tooth nineteen eighty I over, I think it was they

472
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: introduced the couple of gainst tax and negative gearing also

473
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: came in, and I think there was a labor party

474
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: was which the capital gains tax. Oh, that was that

475
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: was That was a labor party in one July. And

476
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: of course negative gearing. Negative gearing became a part of

477
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 3: that process because you know, you're losing money, so you're

478
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: trying to earn income losing money, so you should be entitled.

479
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: To tax reduction.

480
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 3: That legislation, going right back to nineteen eighty five, still

481
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: stands today and we often hear politicians want to tink

482
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: with that stuff.

483
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: What do you think.

484
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: I would I would leave the capital gains tax provisions.

485
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: Were the discount capital.

486
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: I would go, Well, the discount was introduced by by

487
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: my gutment, by Boat Costello, and but the we had

488
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: no capital gains tax at all out of eighty five yep.

489
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: And that was introduced by Paul Keating's treasurer Uh and

490
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: what is often forgotten is that we had from my recollection,

491
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: we had a period brief period of where negative gearing

492
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: was abolished.

493
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you remember that? And it was only six

494
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: short keating abolished that I did, and.

495
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: It resulted in a massive visire recall, a massive increase

496
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: in rents and there was a lot of hurrying and

497
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: scurrying and they decided to bring it back and it's

498
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: remained ever since, and of course a lot of the

499
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: labor people push for its removal. Look, I think the

500
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: debate will go on about it. I think there's a

501
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: case for capital gains tax.

502
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: That that that there should be a tax on capital gains.

503
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think there is a case for it.

504
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: Yes, and exemptions and now now whether.

505
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: With exemption appropriate exemptions. I don't for a moment think

506
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: it should apply to the family home. They'll always be

507
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: very pricey family homes and that escape it. But that

508
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: doesn't all the fact as a principle, And where do

509
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: you draw the line, what's what's an excessively valuable family home?

510
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Totally.

511
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: A lot of people in different parts of Australia are

512
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: brought in a ludicrously to row cost and then over

513
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: the years of seeing the value right, So I think

514
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: there's there's certainly a strong case for it, but with exemptions,

515
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: and I think it'd be a mistake for the government

516
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: to try and get rid of the discount. I think

517
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: there I imagine that they are looking at it.

518
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: I don't know, because of course Chris Bowen and Bill

519
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: Shorten found that out in very short shrift.

520
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: Well, I thought Bowen and Shortened mis read the mood

521
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: of Middle Australia. They saw that as an attack, as

522
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: an attempt to pay for their express excessive spending by

523
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: increasing tas on Little Australia. And people who've saved hard

524
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: and gone from not rags to richards, but gone from

525
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: modest circumstances to relatively comfortable circumstances normally have done that

526
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: because of their hard work, and they resent like hell

527
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: that being heavily taxed.

528
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 3: John, You've mentioned on a couple of occasions the phrase

529
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: Middle Australia, and I seem to recall Mensies made a

530
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: very famous speech about the forgotten people, which was that

531
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: about Middle Australia.

532
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that was the phrase he used. He

533
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: was really talking about, on the one hand, the organized

534
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: power of the trade union movement, and that was an

535
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: era where everybody, so to speak, belonged to a union

536
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: if you could. And the other group he was talking

537
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: about what he called big biss organized and he thought

538
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: that people in the middle they were forgotten, they were squeezed. Now,

539
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: both descriptions were a bit of an exaggeration, a broad rush,

540
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: but there was some truth in that. And the union

541
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: movement when I first went into Parliament had a lot

542
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: more members than it does now. But so does every organization.

543
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: One of the things we have to understand about contemporary

544
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: Australia is that we are no longer a nation of joiners.

545
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: Joiners as in trades, joiners unions, joiners of unions right

546
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 3: and the joiners.

547
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: Of any of organizations. We have fewer trade unions, we

548
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: have fewer people who are religiously affiliated. They don't join churches.

549
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: We have even local pncs, often straight for members. And

550
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: this is it's been I mean it started I think

551
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 2: with the widespread adoption of television because and then it's

552
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: only been aggravated by social media. I mean social media

553
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: is so anti social. I mean it's social intent, but

554
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 2: it takes away why do you get need to have

555
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: morning coffee with your friends when you've got social media

556
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: not I mean I have to say to you, I

557
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: don't have Facebook. I don't embrace social media, and also

558
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: should not talk, I should not pronounce. But my instinct

559
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: tells me that it has accelerated the trend towards a

560
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: more insular society away and the real victims of that

561
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: our organization, I mean, people who support the Liberal Party,

562
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: say me, are our branches of weak? People don't come

563
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: and people don't join anymore. Say, dear, do you think

564
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: the Labor Party is any different that we don't Well,

565
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: I don't think it is. I think if you were

566
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: interviewing my opposite number in the Labor Party, he or

567
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: she might, in a moment of honesty, agree with me.

568
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: People just don't join now A lot of reasons for that.

569
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 2: I think the old pattern often when mum cooked a

570
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: meal on the table and Dad got home from work,

571
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: when you went off to the union meeting, we're meeting

572
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 2: of some other organization. That's part of it. I think

573
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: the spread of social media is only accelerated, but it's

574
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: a phenomenon. And I would say to people of any

575
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: of them listening to this, that if you're worried about

576
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: the membership of the Liberal Party. Just remember that it's

577
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: not alone. It's not just the Liberal Party suffering a

578
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: membership challenge, any other organizations across the board, across the board,

579
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: across the board. We are no longer the nation of

580
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: joiners we were.

581
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: That's very interesting and if we look at our nation today,

582
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: and I mean this might be a difficult question to

583
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: answers straight away, but what other things have you seen

584
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 3: changed as at a national level like that are significant?

585
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 3: What are the significant things you've you've seen change apart

586
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 3: from not being a nation of joiners, what about things

587
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: like at one stage everyone was.

588
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: Part of a religion.

589
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: You know, you're either Jewish, Catholic, maybe Muslim, Greek, Orthodox,

590
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: whatever you identified most of us Church of England you

591
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: identified as a part of.

592
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: One of the big changes is that, yeah, right on

593
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: the issue religion, we are no longer as sectier around.

594
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm old enough to recall that there were

595
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: often great rivalries and contest between Catholics and Protestants. More

596
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: Catholics and Masons are really in organizations like the police,

597
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: I mean we're talking about It was often a joke

598
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: in that you ordinated between a Catholic and a Mason

599
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: as the commissioner of police, and you so well. I

600
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,479
Speaker 2: mean that's no longer talked about now. I think that's

601
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: a good thing now. I'm not pretending for a moment

602
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: that religious observance is as strong now as it was

603
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 2: forty or fifty years ago. But I think the decline

604
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: has been part of this overall decline in people joining organizations,

605
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: and it's a I think the removed the end of

606
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: pretty well, the end of sectarian has been a good thing.

607
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: I mean the people. And I think it's affected politics.

608
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: I think I said earlier years ago, there great bulk

609
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: of Catholics voted labor, not because Catholic Church told them to.

610
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 2: It's just that they came from largely our Irish heroines

611
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: were poor and we're working class. But that's changed, and

612
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: that's good.

613
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: During your period, let's talk when you're in opposition and

614
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: when you're in when you were the prime minister. Let's

615
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 3: let's look at the eighties and nineties, just at that

616
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 3: for the moment. Who are some who are some of

617
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: your great rivals that you admire today when you look

618
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 3: back at it as opposed to what happened in the

619
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 3: bear pit. But you know, are any of your rivals

620
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: standouts that you admire and what would you admire them for?

621
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: Oh? I had an enormous respect for Kim Beasley. He's

622
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: the best labor prime minister we didn't have. I think

623
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: if Beesley had remained leader of the Labor Party and

624
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: defeated me as Kevin Rudd did in two thousand and seven,

625
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: Beesley would have been there for quite a while. He'd

626
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: have treated his colleagues better. Now I respected him. I

627
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: thought Hawk was undoubtedly the most the most capable labor

628
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: prime minister. I stressed the adjective this country's ever had.

629
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: He was bright, he had great communication skills on television particularly,

630
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: and he had an instinct for the common man. And

631
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: he had a bit of Alarican in him. Well, it

632
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: was natural, but he didn't know. I mean, I never

633
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: thought him I thought he overdid it. I just it

634
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 2: was he he was comfortably egalitarian. Some people try too

635
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: hard to be egality, and he didn't. It was he

636
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: was comfortable.

637
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: It was natural.

638
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 2: Natural.

639
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: Do you think that style of person leading a party

640
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 3: where there's liberal labor today would would stand out as

641
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 3: a as a leader and actually help get that party

642
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 3: voted in.

643
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: Because oh, well, if providing that person right, I mean,

644
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 2: Bob Hawk was quite bright. I had occasion to talk

645
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: to him about policy issues, and that he was quite

646
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: pra he was on top men had he's prejudices, has

647
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: no doubt he thought I did. But he was always

648
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: on top of his subject. Now, anybody who's a comfortable

649
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: natural legalitarian who's also bright will do well because that's

650
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: what people like. People. They want to they want to

651
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: understand their politicians, they want to feel they can relate to,

652
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: and they obviously want to believe in what they're saying.

653
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: Now it's not always easy to get together. But then

654
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert on this.

655
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure whether they're not an

656
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: expert on these things.

657
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: I say, you've got pretty good instincts, and because you know,

658
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: in terms of long serving prime ministers, you're right up there.

659
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: So because like I.

660
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: Today, everything is everything is pole driven. Okay, they do polls,

661
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: they've got digital means to find out what's going on,

662
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: what everyone thinks.

663
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: Back in your day, what did you do to find

664
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: polling was important? Then I'm not perps, not as obsessively

665
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: so as now. I think the pressure for an instantaneous

666
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: response to everything is great on our and people get

667
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: into error because they feel they've got to say something. Well,

668
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: if you haven't thought about what you're going to say,

669
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: don't say it. That's any the advice i'd give anybody

670
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: in politics, and the other advice i'd give them is

671
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: get a a bit of life outside of politics before

672
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: you try and go into parliament. A lot of young

673
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: men and women come and see me and they are

674
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, we're liberals. We like to be in parliament.

675
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: And you've got any advisor. The first thing is if

676
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 2: you join the local branch, you should do that. I said. Secondly,

677
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 2: what are you doing? Oh, we just got a degree

678
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: and I'd like to work for a politician. I said,

679
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: well don't. I mean, if you want to do that,

680
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: I don't to stop you. But you've got this pattern

681
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: now where if you labor incline, you go to university,

682
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: you then work for a union in not fixing a

683
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: house or anything like that. You work in the union office,

684
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 2: the admin, the admin, and then you get a job

685
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: on a politician staff and wonderful staffers. I mean I've

686
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: got wonderful staff and I had in people like Arthur

687
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: Synod doing this an outstanding chief of stuff. But you

688
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 2: then get pre selective receipt. What experience of life have

689
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 2: you had? And I say to these people, get ten years.

690
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: You know, if you're a lawyer, practice law for ten years,

691
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: if a doctor, or if you're a public servant, a teacher,

692
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: plenty of teacher. Not all teachers are labor. There's a

693
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: view among some liberals that are every teacher votes label.

694
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: That's not right, and public just do something. You have

695
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: a better understanding then of what the average man and

696
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: woman does and experiences in life.

697
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: So when you won in ninety I think it was

698
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 3: ninety six, the ninety six yep, and you're knocked off

699
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 3: keeping and and we've been through a pretty tough period

700
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: economically during that period, we've.

701
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: Had a lot of inflation and it's very high, et cetera.

702
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 3: What gave you the courage to start to think about

703
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: and develop the JST the goods and service taxes?

704
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'd been a long term advocate of an broadening

705
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: the back indirect. When I was treasurer, I made two

706
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: attempts to do that, and both of them were knocked

707
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: back by the cabinet one of them was I talked

708
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: at large quite early on a retail turnover tax, which

709
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: is a form of indirect tax, and that caused a

710
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: lot of unrest among some of my ministerial colleagues, and

711
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: I think Prime Minister was unhappy about that anyway. He

712
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: just sort of said not a lot, John, So I

713
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: gave that away. And then in advance of the nineteen

714
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: eighty election, I reached an understanding with both Malcolm Fraser

715
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: and Doug Anthony excuse me, that we would not rule

716
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 2: out during the campaign plausibility of tax reform. Then after

717
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: the campaign, I announced that we would review the tax system,

718
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: including the possibility of introducing what I then called a

719
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: broad based indirect tax, which is a GST. And then Malcolm,

720
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: for reasons no doubt he could have explained at the time,

721
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: decided that that was politically unacceptable and it was knocked up.

722
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 2: But it was not on the basis that I couldn't

723
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: so I couldn't go ahead. So I put up a

724
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: submission to Cabinet, and I knew it was going to

725
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 2: be defeated, but I wanted to be on recorders and

726
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: I advocated the introduction of a tax on goods and

727
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 2: services and some reductions in income tax, and it was

728
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: heavily defeated in cabinet, although some of my colleagues, particularly

729
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: but not only from Western Australia supported me. Are really yeah,

730
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: and that was that. So then, so I had a

731
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: track record. And when Labor won the election in eighty

732
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: four and they called the tax summit, Paul Keating proposed

733
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: to twelve and a half percent consumption tax remembered as

734
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 2: Option SEE, and I publicly supported it. I was Shadow

735
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: Treasurer and I remember going to his office and he

736
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,959
Speaker 2: gave me a copy of the document and then we've

737
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: talked about it a lot. I support him anyway. In

738
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: the end that fell foul of Bob Hawk and the unions.

739
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: They didn't want it, so they settled for just introducing

740
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: the capital gains tax and the fringe benefits tax, that's right,

741
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: a few other things, and that was yes. And then

742
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: we ruled out having in a ninety six campaign. We

743
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: ruled out in different ways having an indirect tax in

744
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: our first term. Although I did use the expression never ever,

745
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 2: and that was hung around my neck bye obliging it

746
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: by the Labor Party, which was understandable because never ever

747
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: means never ever. But we then thought that if we

748
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: designed in full, which we did and Peter Costa I

749
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: did a remarkable job with the detail of this a

750
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 2: new tax system, including a ten percent GST, and we

751
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: unveiled that, and then within weeks I called the election.

752
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, they can't complain that I've broken

753
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: my comitment because I'm flinging the whole thing on the

754
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: table and it's going to an election. If they don't

755
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: like it, whether they don't like me or whatever I

756
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: said and didn't say, they can vote against me. Now

757
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: a lot of them did. We lost a lot of seats,

758
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: but we had a big majority, and I took the

759
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: view that if you've got a big majority, you might

760
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: as well use it. Do something bold, Do something bold,

761
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: otherwise it will disappear for no return. You can be

762
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: certain of one thing. If you get a big majority

763
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 2: in parliament in one parliament, it won't last. So you

764
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: either watch it a road or you do something with it. Now.

765
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: The only occasion I can remember where the majority in

766
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: one parliament followed the majority in the earlier parliament was

767
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five and nineteen seventy seven seventy five was

768
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 2: phrase of V. Whitlam. Seventy seven was phrase of E. Whitlam.

769
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: And I think most people still sort of saw that

770
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: as a continuation. And of course by nineteen eighty, when

771
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: Bill Hayden had become Leader of the Labor Party, a

772
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: very honorable man, I thought Hayden, things had changed and

773
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party lost quite a lot of seats, not

774
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 2: in Queensland so much, but certainly in Victoria.

775
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 3: So when people say right now the majority that the

776
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 3: well the parliamentary majority that Labor Party has right now

777
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 3: in Australia at federal level, when they say, look, we're

778
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 3: probably going to see two or three terms of this

779
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: Labor Party, can't be certain of that. So you're sort

780
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: of saying we'd just be careful because things change.

781
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, look, I can let me take examplely by own defeat.

782
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: I mean the night of the two thousand and seven election,

783
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: Kevin Rudwer's triumphant and I remember ringing ngratulating him in

784
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 2: discussing arrangements about moving in and out of Curability and

785
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: the lodge. I thought he'd be in there for a

786
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: couple of terms, as I thought Whitlam would be in

787
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: for a couple of terms after seventy two, but that

788
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: and the materialize, and I mean I was amazed when

789
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: the Labor Party got rid of Rudy. They would never

790
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 2: have done that to Beasley. If not that that's any

791
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: comfort to Beasley, it's just the theoretical musings of a

792
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 2: political opponent.

793
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 3: And one of the things that not many people would

794
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 3: know will remember. Because you are best known for your

795
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 3: your GST, you're also best known for the gun laws,

796
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 3: the gun laws.

797
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: Was that a courageous move or was that just something well?

798
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: It was well, I was, well, people have been kind

799
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: enough to call it courage I think it was the

800
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: right thing to do. And I took the view that

801
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: this scale of the tragedy, thirty five people died at

802
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: the hands of one person. And one of my vivid

803
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 2: recollections was that John Major, who was still not for

804
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 2: long the Prime Minister of Britain. He wrang me up

805
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: and said, I'm sorry to hear about this. He said,

806
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: I never thought that he was in an email, I

807
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: never thought that after the dun Blaine massacre in Scotland,

808
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 2: where a government had gone was cool shot twenty seven kids.

809
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 2: I never thought you get anything like that again, I

810
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: can't believe thirty five people in remote Tasmania. I just

811
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: felt I had to do something, and I had this

812
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 2: huge majority. I'd only been Prime Minister a couple of months.

813
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 2: I think it was the twenty eighth of April nineteen

814
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 2: ninety six, and I think i'd been sworn in on

815
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: the eleventh of March, so it was barely nowhere near

816
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: two months. I just felt I didn't do something, so

817
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: I decided to throw the book at it. And we

818
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 2: didn't have the power constitutional power to ban the weapons,

819
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 2: but the States if they agreed to do it, and

820
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: that was enough, and it was made fairly clear that

821
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 2: if states didn't agree, we'd call a referendum to transfer

822
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 2: the power to the Commonwealth.

823
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: And back to the Constitution.

824
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah. And I'm certain that if we'd

825
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 2: been required to do that, the public would have voted

826
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly to shift the power because they felt very strongly

827
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 2: that something had to be done. They didn't want us

828
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: to go down the American path. But I did understand

829
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 2: how hard it was for some of my rural colleagues,

830
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 2: particularly in the National Party, but not only Tim Fisher

831
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: and John Anderson and the National Party Premier of Queensland,

832
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: Rob Borbige did a wonderful job on it. They bore

833
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: the brunt of it, and you had a lot of

834
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 2: farmers and devils who's sort of said, well, we agree

835
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 2: with you prime in it, but why take our guns

836
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:30,720
Speaker 2: with We keep them safely stored and we don't murder anybody.

837
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 2: Why should we be victimized? And I just sort of said, well,

838
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: it won't work unless there's a blanket band. And we

839
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: did offer give people proper conversation and it worked and

840
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: I am proud of it. I think the country should

841
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: be proud of it. And I did have good support,

842
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: not only from those National Party figures, but Bob Carr,

843
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 2: the Labor Premier news Well, was a very strong supporter.

844
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 3: And thank god because today Australia, where's the benefit of that? I?

845
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: Oh, it does. That's something that I mean, we still

846
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: have tragedies and murders, but mass murders, however, you might

847
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: have not occurred since now. There will be arguments and

848
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: something could happen tomorrow. I don't know, but I pray

849
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: god it won't. But there is a view around the

850
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 2: world that we've done something lasting and beneficial in that area. Now,

851
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't lecture Americans about it. There's a different country

852
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: and different culture. They have a fixation about guns that

853
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: I can't understand, except they did have a revolutionary beginning.

854
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 2: The British were happy to give us our independence. God

855
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: plessent for that, and whereas in America was different and

856
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 2: I think America is a more polarized country. They are

857
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: very intense about the differences to the American.

858
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: And they did have a civil war too, and they

859
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: did have a civil war.

860
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 2: So civil war, yeah, that was over. I mean, well,

861
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: you'd never have a civil war. We couldn't be bothered

862
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: having a civil war out something heavens.

863
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 3: And I said a bit earlier, and often people say

864
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 3: to me, you know, what do you remember about the

865
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 3: John Howard period? And one of the things that stands

866
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 3: out of my mind, and it's particularly important to me,

867
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 3: but during the nineteen ninety eight, nineteen ninety nine, two

868
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 3: thousand period, two thousand and one period when you were

869
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 3: the PM and Peter was the Treasurer, Peter Costello, there

870
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 3: was something that happened that benefited all Australians that most

871
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 3: Australians to this very day don't realize, and that is

872
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: that you guys, the Liberal Party, let's call it, supported

873
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 3: in parliament and gave voice to the people who took

874
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 3: on the banks. And you managed to support Ozzie home loans, buses,

875
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 3: Wizard home loans, which I was with Kerry Packer, and

876
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 3: another one there was another big contender. And you supported

877
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 3: us by putting pressure on the banks to make sure

878
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 3: the bank the banks every time there was an interest

879
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 3: rate reduction that they passed it on.

880
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: To them to borrow.

881
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 3: Oh.

882
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: Yes, it was a big deal. Well, it was very.

883
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 2: Important because and it was largely just done by jaw Boning.

884
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was in parliament though you did in parliament, oh.

885
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: Yes, better in particular. Yeah, I did it very.

886
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 3: Well because I remember and Joe Hockey at the time

887
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 3: was the He ultimately became a service but he was

888
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 3: a Minister of Financial Service. And Joe Hockey one day

889
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 3: rang me and he said, look, and I think it

890
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 3: was in two thousand. It was after the you introduced

891
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 3: the g Just here we had a bit of a

892
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 3: slump in the austral economy in the two thousand period,

893
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 3: two thousand and one beginning, and Joe rang me up

894
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 3: and he said to me, Mark, the Prime Minister and

895
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: he quoted you and I've never been there to get

896
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 3: the bottom of it, and Joe's never told me whether

897
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: it's actually happened on me. He said, the Prime Minister

898
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 3: has asked me to ring up all the major non

899
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 3: bank lenders. Will you pass on the interest rate reduction

900
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 3: that's coming out on the first Tuesday of February to

901
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 3: Australians in six weeks or in a shorter period because

902
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 3: in those days, when it was an interest rate hot rise,

903
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 3: we passed on straight away, but when there was an

904
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 3: intert rate reduction everyone held back for a little while.

905
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: We made some money out of it.

906
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 3: Jane and Joe rang up and I said, well Joe,

907
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 3: because I knew him fairly well at the time, and.

908
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: I said, well, oh, I asked Kerry what he wants

909
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: to do.

910
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 3: So I went to Kerry and Kerry said to me, well, son,

911
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 3: if you think he can do a better deal than

912
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 3: what's currently going to do, and I said so I

913
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 3: ring job, said Joe Wizard, we'll pass the interest rate

914
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 3: reduction on in twelve days. He said, thank you, I'm

915
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 3: going to go back and talk to the Prime Minister

916
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 3: and Parliament was on. It must have just started as

917
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 3: something and he rings about an hour, Lady said, spoke

918
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 3: to the Prime Minister. He said he's heard that Westpac

919
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 3: are going to pass on in ten days and I said, well,

920
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:01,919
Speaker 3: I offered twelve.

921
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: And I thought, is he having a crack at me

922
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: here or not?

923
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 3: And I said well, I thought, well, Kerry's left it

924
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,479
Speaker 3: to me and it would be my neck on the line,

925
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 3: you know, if it doesn't work out. So I said, well,

926
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 3: we'll do it in nine days. And Joe went back

927
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 3: into Parliament and must he said, he told you. I

928
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 3: know he didn't, but that became the In other words,

929
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 3: from that date on, interest rate reductions by the Reserve

930
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 3: Bank were passed on at a much faster rate than

931
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 3: they ever have been done in the pass And I've asked.

932
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: Joe to this very day and he will never tell me.

933
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 3: I said, mate, were you having me on when you

934
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 3: said that the Prime Minister has spoken to Westpac and

935
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: west Pac said they're going to pass on in ten

936
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: days instead of twelve days.

937
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: Because my assessment of.

938
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 3: It would be west Pac would never agree to that,

939
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 3: given that they're such a big band, because the amount

940
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 3: of money they would lose relative to the amount of

941
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 3: money I would lose because of the amount of the

942
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 3: size of their book would be ridiculous.

943
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: Why would they even take that thing? And I've often

944
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: been waiting for the day that I have.

945
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 3: John Howard's sitting in front of me and ask him,

946
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 3: did Joe Hockey actually talk to you about it in

947
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 3: Westpac say to you that they're going to beat me

948
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 3: and they're going to reduce the interest rate pass forward

949
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: by by two days?

950
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: Or is that just Joe playing me? And, by the way,

951
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: played me well and he got me perfectly.

952
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 3: And ended up being a great outcomfort strength consumers.

953
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 2: Like I have a good memory, but I can't recall it.

954
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it didn't happen, Joe. I'm not saying

955
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 2: it didn't happen. I mean, I, Joe, I could easily,

956
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: but I just have no particular recollection of that. Parliament

957
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 2: was sitting by the way, Yeah, well, we were very

958
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: interested in the rapid passing on of great reductions. And

959
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: it is true that the practice now is as soon

960
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 2: as it happened.

961
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 3: If you it on and you know, you know what, John, like,

962
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: what's actually happened here is your government prosecuted without fear

963
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 3: or favor the banks and ultimately in those days of

964
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: banks making three hundred and forty basis points margin, today

965
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 3: they're getting one hundred and twenty only as a result

966
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 3: of competition.

967
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:11,959
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, well that was all idea of getting

968
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: foreign banks. Yeah, correct, a bit more competition.

969
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 3: And you know in Australians today, you know, we enjoy

970
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 3: quite a low margin to cost of money.

971
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,919
Speaker 2: Quite. I mean, I just from talking to my two

972
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: sons who are various times have lived in America, and

973
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,439
Speaker 2: it's good. So now, but I just don't yeah cool,

974
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:35,479
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it didn't happen. Don't get me wrong.

975
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter because at the end of the day,

976
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: it happened and will happen.

977
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 4: Good.

978
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 2: That was beneficial to AUSTRAUDI in borrowers.

979
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 3: And Joe was always very clever, Joe, Joe was good minister,

980
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 3: very clever. And if I then now reflect on I

981
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 3: want to reflect on something else because one of your.

982
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: Let's call it a.

983
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 3: Competitors in a political sense, which was Paul Keating you

984
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 3: defeated ninety six. Keetting introduced has you know, the superannuation guarantee,

985
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 3: and I think it's a great percileg I really do

986
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: as great for Australians and it's still considered to be

987
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 3: one of the best.

988
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: Policies to make.

989
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 2: Sure that the buzz resavings measures.

990
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 3: Correct that and so much so that when people retire

991
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 3: they're not sort of living off. The government perse like

992
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 3: to this to some extent at least. But what do

993
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 3: you think now that I haven't asked Paul Keating? I

994
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 3: actually have asked him, but he hasn't responded. But what

995
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 3: do you think now is going on? What do you

996
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 3: think about this introduction of this tax over superinnuation companies

997
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: that are superinnuation people who have more than three million

998
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 3: dollars with that's it's accumulated in their super.

999
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: Well, I don't like that when I share the criticism

1000
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: of the current opposition of that measure. If there's a

1001
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 2: level of arbitrariness in it, HY three not lower or higher.

1002
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: I'm not in favor of being lower.

1003
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, the Greens wanted to be too, by the way,

1004
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: I know the.

1005
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 2: Green wanted to be two. And it can be all

1006
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: held to pay it. I don't think the government will

1007
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 2: agree to that, but they might. I just I mean,

1008
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 2: I was critical. I have to be honest. The guarantee

1009
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 2: system when it was introduced, and accept it, but I

1010
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: also accept it. Many elections have occurred since and the

1011
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: public has voted, and there are some things that you

1012
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: might have criticized when they first happened, but you don't

1013
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: any longer. And that's one of the men we go along.

1014
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 2: I accept it as part of the furniture, but I

1015
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: don't think it should be seen as some kind of

1016
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: new cash cow by And the whole idea of superannuation

1017
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: is to lift the burden on the state by reducing

1018
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: the call on the pension. And if you lose sight

1019
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 2: of that, I think you lose sight of the purpose

1020
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 2: of superannuation. There was a time when there was no

1021
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: superannuation for self employed people. I remember when I was Treasurer,

1022
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: I introduced for the first time a tax deduction for

1023
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: people who made provision for superannuation for themselves if they

1024
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: were self employed. I mean, you doctor, solicit you didn't.

1025
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 2: And there was a lot of skepticism about that in

1026
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 2: section of the public service. Some of them I'm not

1027
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,919
Speaker 2: saying the Treasury, but some said, I will, Why would

1028
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 2: you introduce a tax concession for self employed people? Most

1029
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 2: of them don't pay any tax anyway. Now that was unfair,

1030
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 2: but that was part of the prejudice from government employees

1031
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 2: against self employed people. Now that all over time that

1032
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 2: has all changed and we no longer argue about that.

1033
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: Neither we should. But it's just a reminder that what

1034
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 2: is contestable at a point of time can become uncontestable

1035
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: if the measure remains, and that's happened with the supernation guarantee.

1036
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 2: But having said that, I'm not in favor of what

1037
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: the government is proposing to do, and I hope they

1038
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 2: I have no idea, and I say I hope they

1039
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 2: don't do it, or finish that sentence, I have no

1040
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 2: idea whether they will or they won't, but I hope

1041
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 2: they don't.

1042
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 3: If I could just maybe just turn the page a

1043
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 3: little bit on moving away from that type of stuff,

1044
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 3: and let's just you know, right now, it's jew political

1045
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 3: tensions around the world, I dare say you would agree

1046
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 3: in lots of forms, and our partners, our long standing partners,

1047
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 3: the United States, who you must have had relationships interactions

1048
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 3: with them during your prime ministership and your leadership. How

1049
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: sensitive are our alliances with organ place on the US, UK, Japan,

1050
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 3: South Korea, et cetera.

1051
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: How sensitive are they as to.

1052
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 3: Policies that we might get up Our leadership today might

1053
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 3: get up on a stage about and where they clash

1054
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 3: with their policies, I mean, and how do we put

1055
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 3: our relationships and our alliances at risk by coming up

1056
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 3: with policies that are different to theirs on a global scale,

1057
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 3: global scale of policies.

1058
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 2: So there's no blanket answer to that. Market depends on

1059
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 2: a given situation. Now, there is a permanence about our

1060
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 2: relationship with the United Kingdom and the United States. We

1061
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: have mystorically our relationship with the British is deeper and

1062
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 2: stronger than any other, but the relationship with America is

1063
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 2: very close and it transcends labor and liberal Republican. A Democrat,

1064
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: I had a very good relationship with Bill Clinton, Democratic president.

1065
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: I served four and a half years with him and

1066
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 2: seven and a half years with George Bush. And I

1067
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: was very close on a personal basis with Bush, and

1068
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 2: we have remained in touch at various times since. I

1069
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 2: also had a very close relationship with Tony Blair. In fact,

1070
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 2: I was the only Australian Prime minister that Tony Blair

1071
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: ever dealt with When he became British Prime Minister, he

1072
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 2: defeated John Major and by the time I was defeated,

1073
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 2: Gordon Brown had replaced Blaire. But I got on very

1074
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: well with Blair. And one of the things is that

1075
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 2: at an international level, domestic political differences don't matter all

1076
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: that much. And on some very important issues, Blair and

1077
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 2: I were on the same page, in the same page

1078
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 2: on Afghanistan and Iraq and terrorism. Now right at the

1079
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 2: moment there's a lot of debate about the differences on

1080
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 2: Palestinian recognition, and now you can debate that. I don't

1081
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 2: think in the long run they're going to damage in

1082
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: a permanent way the relationship. The relationship between the two

1083
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 2: countries is been nurtured by battle fields together and common values.

1084
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:12,839
Speaker 2: We have a lot of sporting rivalry with the United Kingdom,

1085
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,759
Speaker 2: particularly in the cricket field and the rugby league and whatever,

1086
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,560
Speaker 2: and that's I think that's a symbol of the closeness

1087
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 2: of the relationship. You're going to have that fierce, hateful

1088
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:28,480
Speaker 2: rivalry on the sporting field, but not shake the relationship.

1089
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: And we had an opportunity as a nation, and in

1090
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:36,799
Speaker 2: retrospect on please I was able to give it to

1091
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 2: break the link with the British Monarching. We decided against

1092
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 2: it in in nineteen ninety nine. I mean by fifty

1093
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 2: five to forty five.

1094
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: Those are that for Republicans both for now.

1095
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 2: I mean I was against a Republican. A lot of

1096
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: my friends are in favor of some against anyway. But

1097
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 2: the point is that the opportunity was given, we decided

1098
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 2: against it. I suspect at the moment they're even less

1099
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 2: support for republic in Australia than there was then. I

1100
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 2: think partly because people think, well, what the heck it works,

1101
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:17,640
Speaker 2: and we are very pragmatic people. We're more pragmatic and

1102
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 2: less sentimental than Americans. I mean, you think of the

1103
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:23,799
Speaker 2: money people as all that's sentimental. Now it's not really

1104
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: part of the system that works, and it seems to

1105
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 2: work better than the American The American political system has

1106
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 2: had a bad couple of years, and you had two

1107
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:40,799
Speaker 2: people in Donald Trump and Kamila Harris that were regarded

1108
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 2: by a lot of people as a poor choice. Now

1109
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 2: I'm not saying the American people chose Trump. I agree

1110
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 2: with some of the things he said. I disagree totally

1111
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 2: with his refusal to leave the field when the umpire's

1112
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 2: finger went up in two thousand than twenty, he tried,

1113
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 2: according to all the evidence I've seen, to stop the

1114
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: Vice president certifying the lawful outcome of that election. Now,

1115
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 2: I don't think you should do that, and you have

1116
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 2: to accept it. May not like it. You've got to

1117
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 2: accept what public says.

1118
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,680
Speaker 1: I think you're quite vocal at the time too, But

1119
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: you were quite vocal at the time too.

1120
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 4: It wasn't And I don't run away, but I accept

1121
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:30,679
Speaker 4: that he won the last election and the American people

1122
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 4: are entitled to elect to who they elect.

1123
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 2: I don't think their system works well. I think a

1124
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 2: parliamentary system is better. I think back to the Watergate scandal,

1125
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 2: where for months the American president he was paralyzed with Nixon.

1126
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 2: Would he be removed? Would he be impeached? Now, in

1127
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 2: our system of government, that had been easily solved. If

1128
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 2: the Prime minister had been in the situation Nix was in,

1129
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 2: the party would have said time for you to go, mate,

1130
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 2: we're going to we're not going to copy this any longer,

1131
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 2: and would have replaced him or her with somebody else. Now,

1132
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 2: I think that's a better system, but they're not going

1133
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 2: to change and we're not going to change ours. But

1134
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 2: the point I make, and I connect it to the Republic,

1135
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 2: is that we are a pragmatic people. Now. I think

1136
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 2: having a monarchy is a better system. But I think

1137
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that survived is it works, and

1138
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 2: one of the we're skeptical of big changes that don't work.

1139
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 2: We have what I've often called a deep deposit of

1140
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 2: Celtic skepticism, you know, the Irish and scottishness. They sort

1141
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 2: of suspicious people say, oh, we're going to do this,

1142
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: and I what do you really want? And I think

1143
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 2: the Voice referendum was a victim of that. Now, I

1144
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: think there were reasons why people should have voted against

1145
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 2: the boys, but I think the main reason why they

1146
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 2: ended up ended up being beaten by a bigger margin

1147
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 2: was because people just were unconvinced that a big They

1148
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 2: thought it was more than met the eye, and why

1149
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 2: take a risk and what the hell? Why should we

1150
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 2: mess around with this? Now? That's all our skepticism, and.

1151
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 1: I think ingrained in us. It's ingrained in us.

1152
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,679
Speaker 2: And I think it's a good but it's a good thing.

1153
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 2: It means that lunatics can't grab the stage.

1154
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 3: What do you think that you mentioned Tony Blair, you

1155
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 3: mentioned George Bush Sr. You mentioned Bill Clinton.

1156
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: How is it that you were able or what was

1157
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 1: it you did well the other friends.

1158
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 2: I'm making is that you can the common values and

1159
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 2: the intrinsic words of the person can transcend any political difference.

1160
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 2: I was very clever. I mean, George W. Bush and

1161
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 2: I have the same side of politics. Clinton normally was different,

1162
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 2: although he's a very centrist Democrat. But George W. H. W.

1163
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 2: Bush was George Bush's father. He and Bob Hawk got

1164
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 2: on very well together. And of course Tony Blair and eyes.

1165
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 2: I say I to this day when normally when I

1166
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:30,760
Speaker 2: go to Britain, I always catch up with him and

1167
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 2: have a drink and.

1168
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 3: That's But do you think that there's a process. I mean,

1169
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 3: do you often send a message to them? Is there

1170
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 3: something that because you know, we're getting all the media

1171
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 3: talking to us now about you know, Albany is he's

1172
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 3: not close enough to Trump, although he did put up

1173
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 3: a selfie today in the papers I noticed of him

1174
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 3: and Trump together. But do you think there's something that

1175
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 3: John Howard did or something that John Howard represented? I'm

1176
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 3: not talking about political culors. Is there something that you

1177
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 3: represented all that perhaps your friendships with them, he represented

1178
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 3: something different too, Perhaps might be might be.

1179
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's unfortunate that it's taken so long

1180
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 2: for the Prime Minister of Australia to have a face

1181
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 2: to face sit down with the president in the United States.

1182
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll leave it. I won't say alban Easy

1183
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 2: and Trumps because in the past that hasn't happened. But

1184
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 2: in the past it sort of wasn't a point of contact. Mean,

1185
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:30,639
Speaker 2: I remember when I became Prime minister. I actually visited

1186
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 2: Jakata and Tokyo and Beijing as Prime minister before I

1187
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 2: went to Washington or London. Nobody thought for a moment

1188
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,360
Speaker 2: I wasn't pro American and pro British. It's just that

1189
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 2: they weren't issues then that they are issues now, partly

1190
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 2: because of the manner of the new President of the

1191
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 2: United States. I mean, he's certainly different, but he one

1192
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 2: and I agree with I mean, I watched his speech

1193
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 2: to the UN. I have some skepticism which I share

1194
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,600
Speaker 2: with him, about the effectiveness of the UN, but I

1195
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 2: certainly thought what he did on Iran's nuclear capacity was

1196
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 2: courageous and effective. On the other hand, I don't like

1197
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 2: him saying that people who criticize him should be singled

1198
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 2: out any media that is you can, You've got to

1199
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:44,760
Speaker 2: accept criticism. My view is you democracy survives in Australia

1200
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 2: because we have three essential characteristics of our institutions. We

1201
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:57,560
Speaker 2: have a robust parliamentary system, we have an incorruptible judiciary,

1202
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 2: and we have a free press. Now, if you've got

1203
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 2: those three things, you don't need anything else. You need

1204
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 2: a legal system that's above approach and that if people

1205
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 2: break the lawn and they dealt with and that applies

1206
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 2: to everybody, to all of us, and you need I

1207
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 2: think a robust parliamentary system is better than a presidential system.

1208
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 2: The problem with the presidential system, allah the American one,

1209
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 2: is that the president is not exposed on a daily

1210
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 2: basis to questioning by the opposition when the parliament's sitting.

1211
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 2: The President never goes to Congress except to deliver the

1212
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 2: State of the Union. They all stand and cheer or boom.

1213
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: Now that's so it's not as robust in debate sense.

1214
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no, no, it's not, and it's

1215
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 2: not as forensic. You can actually I mean, if you've

1216
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 2: got a problem and you've got good oppers position people

1217
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,839
Speaker 2: who will ask you the same question in a different

1218
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 2: way twenty times, you've got to be careful you don't

1219
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 2: make a slip.

1220
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 3: So you just mentioned the media, the free press. In

1221
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:19,520
Speaker 3: Australia during your period, there was Murdock and Packer.

1222
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: And Stokes, but probably those.

1223
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 3: Two were much larger in the scheme of things at

1224
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 3: that times. Are in fair facts of course I forgot

1225
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 3: and the ABC and the ABC. Yes, how does a

1226
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 3: prime minister? Does a prime minister, or should have prome minister.

1227
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 1: Build a relationship with either the proprietors of the media.

1228
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:47,839
Speaker 2: Or providing it's a proper relationship. I enjoyed Kerry Packer's company.

1229
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 2: I thought he understood what made the average Australian tick

1230
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,799
Speaker 2: very well, and I thought that performance of his before

1231
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 2: the Senate in parliamentary inquiry was a vindage. I know

1232
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,680
Speaker 2: Rupert Murdoch well, I think Rupert Murdoch is arguably the

1233
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,839
Speaker 2: greatest international business Ministrata's produced.

1234
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,760
Speaker 1: I'd say this right to you. Yeah, he's terrific long

1235
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:13,799
Speaker 1: term still, oh yeah, long, very bright.

1236
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 2: And what I liked about Rupert was that I mean

1237
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,560
Speaker 2: he came when he came to Australia when I was

1238
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:23,560
Speaker 2: Prime Minister, he always got in touch with me and

1239
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 2: we'd have a meal, either just the two of us

1240
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 2: or he had his local henchman. I hope he'd come

1241
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 2: along and ar the Cinnadinas would come along with me

1242
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 2: and we'd have a lodger career. But he didn't spend

1243
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 2: that time lobbying for news corps. I mean, he had

1244
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 2: other people doing that. They don't get me wrong. But

1245
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,760
Speaker 2: he spent the time talking about issues, and he was

1246
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 2: interested in international politics and all that kind of stuff.

1247
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 2: Now I knew what his views were on a lot

1248
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 2: of issues. I knew that some of the positions that

1249
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 2: we took were upset him, but mostly his papers were

1250
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 2: fair and reasonably. They were very supportive of our position

1251
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 2: on Iraq, which was controversial. He was very supportive in

1252
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 2: my attitude on industrial relations Kerry Packern the other and

1253
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 2: was very opposed to the GST. He told me that

1254
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 2: in unrestrained.

1255
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: Terms, no uncertain terms, the carry.

1256
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 2: No uncertain terms and no such thing. But that's fine.

1257
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:40,440
Speaker 2: I didn't mind, and didn't order our relationship or friendship.

1258
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 2: I wouldn't claim that I was a close personal friend

1259
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:46,720
Speaker 2: of either, but I had a good friendship with each

1260
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:52,679
Speaker 2: of them. And I'm sure that some of my labor

1261
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 2: predecessors were the same. And Kerry Stakes I know well

1262
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 2: it was Ryan is now the and I don't know

1263
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:05,679
Speaker 2: Lachlan as well, but I know him. But you've got

1264
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 2: inevitably you should have a relationship with them. Now, it

1265
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 2: only becomes improper if you have some kind of secret understanding.

1266
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 2: You scratch my back, old scratch. Well, now, I never

1267
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:24,719
Speaker 2: had that with any media proprietor. But I didn't regard

1268
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 2: them as ogres. I didn't regard them as dangerous species

1269
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:31,759
Speaker 2: to be avoided at all costs.

1270
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a matter of then.

1271
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 3: I mean, is it the same bridge that you are

1272
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 3: built with presidents and prime ministers of the UK of Britain.

1273
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 3: Is it the same sort of bridge that you built

1274
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 3: with proprietors of media as well? Whereas it was one

1275
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 3: of mutual respect. But at the same time, I've got

1276
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 3: my view, you've got your views, and you're not going

1277
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 3: to necessarily.

1278
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 2: But as I didn't feel that you couldn't have a

1279
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 2: certain lightheartened us in the relationship and share a joke and.

1280
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 3: Say so if I can just fast forward now to

1281
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 3: the election, the most recent election of federal election I'm

1282
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,839
Speaker 3: talking about, the Liberal Party didn't do so well and

1283
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 3: the coalition didn't just well.

1284
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: Actually the National Party held its own, the Liberal.

1285
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,040
Speaker 2: The National Party did hold its ow.

1286
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 1: Held its own, but the Liberals did not.

1287
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 3: And you know, and I had Peter sitting right there,

1288
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 3: Peter Dutton, as I did Anthony Albanisi and sitting right there.

1289
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:35,800
Speaker 3: And I was at the time, to be frank with you,

1290
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:40,680
Speaker 3: very impressed with Peter Dutton's intellect, his grasp on issues.

1291
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 1: His knowledge, his personal bliness, like very personable.

1292
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,479
Speaker 3: To me, I thought, I felt he's not some you know,

1293
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,799
Speaker 3: crazy policeman who wants to lock everybody up anything.

1294
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:54,240
Speaker 1: But he's the opposite. Family man.

1295
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 3: Talked about his family, you know, adoringly, and as did

1296
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 3: Anthony Albanisi, as did the Prime Minister. And I found

1297
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 3: them both engaging and friendly and very likable, quite affable,

1298
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 3: both of them.

1299
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 1: Where did it go wrong for Done Well?

1300
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 2: I don't think it automatically follows that because they were

1301
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 2: both affable and everything we should have done better gone

1302
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:25,599
Speaker 2: better for done I was surprised at the labor Party

1303
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 2: increased its majority. Now what went wrong? I think that

1304
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 2: the normal tendency of the Australian public is to give

1305
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 2: a newly elected government a second term just out of

1306
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 2: a fair go principle unless there's an overwhelming reason not to.

1307
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:57,720
Speaker 2: Now I don't think we established that. Now why, I

1308
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:01,679
Speaker 2: don't know. Some people say it's, of course we didn't

1309
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 2: spend enough time developing detailed policy and there's no alternative

1310
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,720
Speaker 2: to that amount. To the extent that my views have

1311
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:13,879
Speaker 2: been sort I've said, you've just got to immediately start

1312
01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 2: devising alternative policies in detail and then make calculations as

1313
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:22,560
Speaker 2: to when and how you release them, because there's no substitute.

1314
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 2: If you're asking people to throw out a first term

1315
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,920
Speaker 2: prime minister, no matter what you think of him, you

1316
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 2: gold have a reason. I think that was there. I

1317
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 2: think a couple of particular policy as they seem to

1318
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 2: get into strife on the work from home issue, that

1319
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 2: would have if you look at some of the seats

1320
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:49,400
Speaker 2: that especially Peter his own seat, well the seat of Robertson,

1321
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,520
Speaker 2: Richard gospin the central Coast, a lot of people they're

1322
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,400
Speaker 2: commute to the city. Well they did, and I'm now

1323
01:24:57,560 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 2: working from home and they thought they had to go

1324
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 2: back to commuting in the city. That might have influenced

1325
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 2: how they better. But that's just an example that I quote.

1326
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 2: I don't think that was. I was surprised at the

1327
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:11,600
Speaker 2: fact that over party increased its boat.

1328
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:15,479
Speaker 3: Now was that more of a protest against the Liberal

1329
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:17,760
Speaker 3: do you think as opposed to people saying, Wow, I

1330
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 3: want to lockstep with beIN locks I can't.

1331
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 2: Again, I don't know the answer to that, Mark. I

1332
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 2: think it's probably as always a bit of both.

1333
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was disappointed in the outcome, because I

1334
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 3: was surprised. Equally surprised.

1335
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:39,160
Speaker 1: I thought Peter would give it. I thought the Liberals thought.

1336
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 2: Peter held a show together. Well, I like him a lot.

1337
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 2: I was very sorry that he lost his seat and

1338
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 2: but he will survive and stuff. But to the Liberal.

1339
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:55,559
Speaker 1: Party, I liked him a lot. I did too. I

1340
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,720
Speaker 1: didn't know him before, but I met him on a

1341
01:25:57,720 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: couple of times.

1342
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:01,080
Speaker 2: I made him a minister fairly in the peace because

1343
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 2: I thought he was calm and sensible, and many business

1344
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 2: people with whom he din't speak well of him as

1345
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 2: having a common sense understanding of what they were putting

1346
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 2: to the government.

1347
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 3: I would expect though today members of the Liberal Party,

1348
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 3: and I would hope, I definitely would hope that senior

1349
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,880
Speaker 3: members of the Liberal Party, the movement, Liberal movement, do

1350
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 3: they come.

1351
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 1: And talk to you. I would expect, Oh, yes, I

1352
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 1: some of them do.

1353
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 2: Not all of them. Don't expect that. While now since

1354
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:37,240
Speaker 2: I've been in parliament.

1355
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, but your observations are pretty important here actively.

1356
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 2: Look. I mean I had a meeting yesterday with Ted

1357
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 2: O'Brien who's the Deputy Leader. It was a useful discussion

1358
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 2: and we'll keep in touch. And I've spoken on a

1359
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 2: number of occasions with Susan Lee and others I know well.

1360
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:06,000
Speaker 2: And although time marches on, you see a lot of

1361
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 2: the people that I do. I mean, Peter Dutton's gone

1362
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:11,920
Speaker 2: and Josh Friedenbig who I knew very well and I

1363
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:15,120
Speaker 2: still talk to jobs, but he's no longer in parliament.

1364
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:17,679
Speaker 2: He might try and come back, but if he does,

1365
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:19,959
Speaker 2: he'll have to probably do it at the next parliament.

1366
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 2: I know just Sinder Price very well. I think she's

1367
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 2: a popular figure in liberal circles because of the work

1368
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 2: she did on the referendum. But equally you've got to

1369
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:39,360
Speaker 2: be careful about people talking up your leadership prospects too soon.

1370
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:46,200
Speaker 3: His politics vicious, his politics with a party within a party, Well,

1371
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 3: it can be, and I think sometimes the viciousness can

1372
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 3: be exaggerated.

1373
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 2: I mean people talked about the differences of opinion I

1374
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 2: had with Andrew peat Cocky is now no longer with us. Now.

1375
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: There were differences, yeah, and I said for a long

1376
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 2: time that we were equally to blame for those difference.

1377
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 2: But I think they can be exaggerated. And it was

1378
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 2: made to water because he came from Melbourne, I came

1379
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:23,960
Speaker 2: from Sydney. He was a more I guess gifted, colorful,

1380
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 2: flamboyant sort of character. But I liked Andrew and I

1381
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 2: buried the hatchet years ago. The years after him. I

1382
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 2: remember one of the first things I did when we

1383
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,879
Speaker 2: became the government was appointed the ambassador to Washington.

1384
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:43,840
Speaker 1: Well that's that's not a bad job, by the way.

1385
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 2: Well he did it well, and he met third wife there, Penny.

1386
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 1: And yes he had a couple, he had a couple

1387
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:54,719
Speaker 1: of wives.

1388
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 2: Well such get into that.

1389
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:03,799
Speaker 3: So because it seems to me, just as an observer,

1390
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 3: but you know, a keen political observer that often treasurers

1391
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 3: are sort of thinking to themselves at what they've been

1392
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 3: countered I wanted, but they want to be the prime minister,

1393
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:13,599
Speaker 3: which is ambition.

1394
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 1: That's fine.

1395
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 2: Oh yea. There's a lot of people have transitioned from

1396
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:23,839
Speaker 2: being Harold Holt did it back in. I think Watson,

1397
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 2: who was the first labor and he'd been a treasurer

1398
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 2: for a period of time, because when Menzies became from me,

1399
01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:35,680
Speaker 2: his treasurer for a long time was Fatten. He was

1400
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:38,439
Speaker 2: leader of the Country Party, but then it was Holt,

1401
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 2: and then when Fraser will Ship was his first treasure

1402
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 2: and then because he dominated the scene. But that happens.

1403
01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:52,160
Speaker 2: And one of the great advantages of treasury is that

1404
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 2: you're across every portfolio as you were, and I found

1405
01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 2: that I had knowledge of filios that occasionally exceeded that

1406
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 2: of the incumbent minister. But not because I was a genius,

1407
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:09,280
Speaker 2: but simply because the quality of people in treasury is

1408
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 2: very high, and they give you a lot of advice

1409
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:15,719
Speaker 2: which is valuable, and you retain it and it means

1410
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 2: that you're off to a good start later on. Of course,

1411
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison was in the same Well Morrison did it, Yes,

1412
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 2: Treasury to Prime minister. He did, I'd forgotten him more

1413
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 2: recent example, yes.

1414
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 1: And even at state level.

1415
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 3: I mean I remember Nick Reiner went from the same thing,

1416
01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 3: and so did the Glads.

1417
01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 1: Well, yes, ground away from treasury to treasurer to premiere.

1418
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 2: And as was.

1419
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:47,959
Speaker 1: Dominica.

1420
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1421
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,960
Speaker 1: And it just seems to me that there's a process,

1422
01:30:52,080 --> 01:30:52,519
Speaker 1: I mean and.

1423
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 2: Well, because it's the most second, it's regarded after the

1424
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 2: Prime Minister as the most significant person out of federal level.

1425
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 2: The foreign minister also gets. And one of the features

1426
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 2: of my time in government, and only it contributed to

1427
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:18,439
Speaker 2: the stability we had, was that for the first time

1428
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:24,480
Speaker 2: since federation, the same three people occupied the prime Ministership,

1429
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 2: the Treasury and Foreign Affairs for the duration of the government.

1430
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Alexander.

1431
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:35,759
Speaker 2: Each time it was my first and only foreign minister,

1432
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:40,080
Speaker 2: Peter Costello was my first and only Treasurer, and I

1433
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,120
Speaker 2: was Prime Minister. It was for the whole time, so

1434
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:44,440
Speaker 2: for just under twelve years.

1435
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:47,360
Speaker 1: So each term, right, okay, yeah, yeah, And.

1436
01:31:47,400 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 2: That's quite significant because it builds up a reservoir of

1437
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 2: experience and knowledge that is hard to replicate.

1438
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 3: And trust that trust for those people in those propos

1439
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 3: and I often forget about and I should not.

1440
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:07,080
Speaker 1: Alexander Downer.

1441
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:13,599
Speaker 2: Downer did. He was a great foreign minister, steady hand, reliable,

1442
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 2: And when I look at the way in which our

1443
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 2: relations with countries in our own region are under pressure

1444
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 2: at the moment, I think this government has got a

1445
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:27,559
Speaker 2: foreign policy almost of crisis proportions on its hands. With

1446
01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:33,960
Speaker 2: PNNG is iffing and budding about signing a security dug

1447
01:32:34,040 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 2: with us obviously under pressure from the Chinese. Banawatu has

1448
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:43,720
Speaker 2: done the same, and prior to that, the Solomon you

1449
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 2: think of World War two, the term used endearingly by

1450
01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 2: Australian diggers of the fuzzy wuzzy Angels. I mean, we

1451
01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 2: are a lot to the people of Papua New Guiney

1452
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:59,480
Speaker 2: for the help they gave us against the invading Japanese.

1453
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 2: I think it's just terrible. That's and you've got the

1454
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:16,560
Speaker 2: President of Indonesia talking about approvingly of China's involvement. You

1455
01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 2: gotta worry about that. Mantes, that's a big and that's

1456
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,320
Speaker 2: our doorstep, that's right next door to us. And instead

1457
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 2: of worrying about whether we host the next you know,

1458
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 2: gathering on the environment, you can imagine if we are

1459
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:36,879
Speaker 2: awarded that the government, and I'm not saying we shouldn't

1460
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,880
Speaker 2: do it. You can walk walk into your government at

1461
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,799
Speaker 2: the same time, but heavens above, I think the government

1462
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:47,560
Speaker 2: should turn its focus back on what's on our doorstep

1463
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 2: and recognize that when you've got pn g Vanawatu President

1464
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 2: of Indonesia, all of whom are seemingly out of sync

1465
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:03,599
Speaker 2: with us in our government, that's a worry and something

1466
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,080
Speaker 2: we should do something about immediately.

1467
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,640
Speaker 3: As one of our in my opinion anyway, one of

1468
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 3: our most revered and senior political figures over a long

1469
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 3: period of time in this country. What do you feel

1470
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:20,560
Speaker 3: and or what do you think about the future of Australia.

1471
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm an optimist because I think we have inherent strengths

1472
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:36,559
Speaker 2: where pragmatic, appropriately skeptical, but nonetheless idealistic, and we have

1473
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:39,759
Speaker 2: a common we have a set of values. We still

1474
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,280
Speaker 2: believe in the fair go and we are still welcoming

1475
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:46,480
Speaker 2: the migrants. I mean, I believe in in having migrants

1476
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,479
Speaker 2: flowing into this country that we've all benefited from it.

1477
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:56,679
Speaker 2: I've watched the big change from European only some Middle

1478
01:34:56,680 --> 01:35:02,000
Speaker 2: East and the Lebanese Maronite really and others Eastern and

1479
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:07,760
Speaker 2: European to include migrants from China and India, so much

1480
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 2: so that for the last few years the three biggest

1481
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:16,639
Speaker 2: source companies have been India, China, Britain slash Ireland. Now

1482
01:35:16,680 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 2: that is a huge change, but I am very much

1483
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:25,640
Speaker 2: in favor of the old approach of assimilation integration. I

1484
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 2: think the idea of people are attracted to Australia, they

1485
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:34,920
Speaker 2: come here, they accept and embrace our values. They're not

1486
01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 2: expected to forget their homeland. I think never. I never

1487
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 2: thought that applied. So many people I know, of Greek

1488
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:50,840
Speaker 2: and Italian and whatever background, they never sort of gave

1489
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 2: up an affection, and we're grateful, not only culinary reasons,

1490
01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:04,120
Speaker 2: but other reasons they didn't. I think the idea of

1491
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 2: a federation of tribes, which multiculturalism always meant to me,

1492
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 2: is bad. Now. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was just

1493
01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:16,840
Speaker 2: a modern term for integration or assimilation. I don't think

1494
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,800
Speaker 2: it was. Actually I think it was a device to

1495
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,800
Speaker 2: curry support from different groups. But whatever it was, I

1496
01:36:24,840 --> 01:36:30,880
Speaker 2: don't I think the instinctive notion of Australians is we

1497
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:36,960
Speaker 2: welcome people from everywhere, as long as they seek to

1498
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 2: become Australian.

1499
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 1: I agree with that, and that's me.

1500
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:44,760
Speaker 2: That's what I believe in, and it's worked. And I

1501
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 2: think of all the people and I've met, I've not

1502
01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 2: ever met a multicultural man or woman. I've met a

1503
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 2: bicultural person. You know. I know plenty of people who

1504
01:36:57,240 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 2: are simultaneously Australian and China, Austraining and Greek. And I

1505
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:06,200
Speaker 2: think that works. I think it's what people want, and

1506
01:37:06,240 --> 01:37:09,760
Speaker 2: they also want to be able to say, well, if

1507
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:15,240
Speaker 2: the migrant intake is so big that it's putting an

1508
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 2: unreasonable strain on our infrastructure, then we should slow it

1509
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:24,519
Speaker 2: down until that unreasonable strain of bates. Now, what's wrong

1510
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:24,840
Speaker 2: with that?

1511
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 3: It doesn't it be permanent. It's just it's just a

1512
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:31,080
Speaker 3: slow down. It's just nobody's arguing that it's not racist.

1513
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 2: No, it's not. I mean I got into trouble years

1514
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:36,320
Speaker 2: ago when I said, if it were people were worried

1515
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 2: that what was then a new experience, a surge in

1516
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:45,880
Speaker 2: asient migration. Maybe we should slow it down to in

1517
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 2: the interest of social cohesion, not stop it, not keep

1518
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 2: the slow down permanent. Oh that was racist, And I

1519
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:58,280
Speaker 2: got into all sorts of trouble, but that's years ago

1520
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,400
Speaker 2: before I but if I.

1521
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:03,760
Speaker 3: Leave all this, I have to turn a sport for

1522
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 3: a moment. Your favorite cricket team, which is, as I remember,

1523
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:10,360
Speaker 3: Saint George Cricket.

1524
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,920
Speaker 1: St George Cricket. Is your Saint George your favorite cricket

1525
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:15,200
Speaker 1: local cricket club.

1526
01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 2: Well, no, I no, I must say that although I

1527
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:24,200
Speaker 2: grew up in that area, was sort of part of

1528
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 2: George called half Saint George half Canterbury and Canterbury Boys

1529
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:33,559
Speaker 2: High School took pupils from the Saint George area, I

1530
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:37,840
Speaker 2: never really had a club. I played a lot of

1531
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 2: cricket for a local church team which was in the

1532
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 2: news Welsh Church's competition and that embraced teams from all over.

1533
01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:47,559
Speaker 1: What was that team called?

1534
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 2: What was that?

1535
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 1: What was that? What was that church?

1536
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:56,200
Speaker 2: The Illwood Methodists Church? And we played, I mean I

1537
01:38:56,280 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. Eventually we played and plays with the Tempe

1538
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 2: and Steal Park and Rudd Park in Bellmore and it

1539
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:08,759
Speaker 2: was all good fun. But you do love your cricket.

1540
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:12,120
Speaker 2: I love cricket. I wasn't much good at it. I

1541
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:16,000
Speaker 2: did once get six for ninety seven playing against I

1542
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 2: think punch Bowl Baptist. And that's just a vague record.

1543
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:24,640
Speaker 2: But I enjoyed cricket im mentally and I still do.

1544
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:28,439
Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to the Ashes contest, but a

1545
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:32,719
Speaker 2: lot of sport I'm looking forward. When I'm in Dallas

1546
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:39,600
Speaker 2: in Denver, I understand sheerly by coincidence, by sheer coincidence,

1547
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 2: there's a soccer match between the Australian team and an

1548
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:45,840
Speaker 2: American team. So I'm going to go to that. Yeah,

1549
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:46,360
Speaker 2: watch it.

1550
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:47,759
Speaker 1: And what about rugby league?

1551
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I follow Saint George. That's that's the rugby league.

1552
01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:54,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm very much as a George man with

1553
01:39:54,200 --> 01:40:01,280
Speaker 2: rugby league. Oh I've seen some good Saint George. I

1554
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:07,599
Speaker 2: was there at Coger Oval and Jubilee Oval when Saint

1555
01:40:07,640 --> 01:40:13,879
Speaker 2: George defeated the Melbourne Storm the early part of this season.

1556
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 2: Thanks Saint George, will do even better next year. And

1557
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 2: they they were very spasmodic this year. They were happy

1558
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 2: they had some big wins over teams that ended up

1559
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:34,639
Speaker 2: in the final eight, such as the Melbourne Stoom, but

1560
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:35,719
Speaker 2: then lost to others.

1561
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:40,559
Speaker 3: So and and I have a one final thing for you.

1562
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:45,640
Speaker 3: John Arthur Laundy asked me to ask you this question, Oh, Lornie.

1563
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:49,599
Speaker 3: Now Arthur Laundy, Lord, Arthur Laundy, Yes, I'm deaf.

1564
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:50,759
Speaker 1: Arthur Laundy.

1565
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know Arthur will And I said to Arthur,

1566
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:56,840
Speaker 2: because well I know I knew his son better and.

1567
01:40:56,760 --> 01:40:57,840
Speaker 1: He's a great guy, Craig.

1568
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 3: But Arthur said to me, he said, and actually after

1569
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:03,280
Speaker 3: he used the words, asked the prime minister, but you're

1570
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:07,639
Speaker 3: no longer the prime ministers, but he said, ask him

1571
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 3: that during his three terms on balance, would he say

1572
01:41:16,560 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 3: that as prime minister it was more of a job

1573
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:21,360
Speaker 3: or did he enjoy going to work every single day?

1574
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 2: It was a job I enjoyed immensely. Yeah. Did I

1575
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:32,040
Speaker 2: enjoy going to work every day? I think I did well.

1576
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:38,120
Speaker 2: I never felt like staying in bed to avoid the day.

1577
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:41,960
Speaker 1: So he fronted up, no matter what, Oh.

1578
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I found it up. I believed. And if you're

1579
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:47,439
Speaker 2: in a hole, you had to dig yourself out or

1580
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:51,680
Speaker 2: stop digging. Some people say you should stop digging, but no,

1581
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:55,800
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it and it was a challenge, but it

1582
01:41:55,880 --> 01:42:00,240
Speaker 2: was a privilege and the opportunity, and I felt that

1583
01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:07,280
Speaker 2: it was a rare opportunity to do something that improved things.

1584
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:11,160
Speaker 2: And when I look back and think of, you know,

1585
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:15,719
Speaker 2: what we did with guns. What I did is often

1586
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:19,960
Speaker 2: or talked about to expand the opportunity for people on

1587
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:25,200
Speaker 2: more modest means to send their kids to independent schools

1588
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 2: if that's what they wanted. I thought, changing the tax

1589
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 2: system is good. I thought a lot of things. I

1590
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:38,040
Speaker 2: think back, but I guess to this day, if I'm

1591
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 2: stopped in the street by people who want to say

1592
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:44,759
Speaker 2: something nice to me, they talk about guns.

1593
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:47,120
Speaker 1: It was a massive legacy.

1594
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:52,080
Speaker 2: Well it is. And people, particularly but not only women,

1595
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:57,720
Speaker 2: they worry about their children at schools and people.

1596
01:42:57,720 --> 01:42:58,679
Speaker 1: They just want to be safe.

1597
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 2: They just want to be safe. And the first responsibility

1598
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 2: of a government is to make the country and the

1599
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 2: people of the country feel safe. And that drove me

1600
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:15,800
Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful, but we in the end got there. Hmm.

1601
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:20,200
Speaker 2: As to what other countries do, well, that's there. I

1602
01:43:20,280 --> 01:43:24,280
Speaker 2: don't presume to lecture the Americans about that. I feel

1603
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:27,240
Speaker 2: for them. They have gun incidents all the time, and

1604
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 2: I'm not saying we won't have any more in Australia.

1605
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:32,280
Speaker 2: I can't. But all I do know is that we

1606
01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:35,439
Speaker 2: did all we could in the wake of that to

1607
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 2: prevent it happening again.

1608
01:43:36,800 --> 01:43:39,519
Speaker 1: And to make it harder. Yeah, and then Arthur had

1609
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:41,240
Speaker 1: one more question to me, and he said, he's always

1610
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 1: been curious about this. Where does missus Howard fit.

1611
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 3: Into the life of a prime minister? I mean not

1612
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:56,800
Speaker 3: saying that one would influence it, but do you do

1613
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 3: you know, your closest person to you on the planet.

1614
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:05,479
Speaker 3: Do you have rules or don't have rules about what

1615
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:07,120
Speaker 3: you talk about, what you don't talk about.

1616
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:11,160
Speaker 2: You don't have rules, You're just as instinct instinct. We

1617
01:44:11,240 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 2: talked about everything. Jeannette was a wonderful source of support,

1618
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 2: a bias and affection, as were my three children. They

1619
01:44:22,520 --> 01:44:28,080
Speaker 2: are now the youngest is forty five, so they very

1620
01:44:28,160 --> 01:44:34,360
Speaker 2: much alive to things when and they generally agreed with me.

1621
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:38,439
Speaker 2: Not all that I mean, no, I mean one of

1622
01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:42,519
Speaker 2: my sons who was particularly supportive of what Peter Rees

1623
01:44:42,560 --> 01:44:45,680
Speaker 2: did on the waterfront, he said, Dad, you might have

1624
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 2: been talking about fixing the waterfront for years, well long

1625
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 2: last somebody has done something. Now this is Patrick's days,

1626
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 2: so yeah, yeah, yeah, Patrick's Corrigangan Pegan and Chris Kragan yeah,

1627
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:02,840
Speaker 2: and John Sharp before he left Parliament had quite a

1628
01:45:02,880 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 2: bit to do with it, as will, but look without

1629
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:10,320
Speaker 2: a family that we could talk about issues at home

1630
01:45:10,479 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 2: and by hope in a sensible, sober way. And we

1631
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:20,360
Speaker 2: had our prejudices, and they were broadly supportive of me

1632
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:22,920
Speaker 2: on some issues. They were to the right of me

1633
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:25,360
Speaker 2: on some issues. They were not as far of the

1634
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 2: writer as me, but overwhelmingly supported what I did, and

1635
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 2: we survived and remained very close. And that's the greatest

1636
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:38,000
Speaker 2: achievement of my life, without any doubt, far more than

1637
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:42,360
Speaker 2: anything I did in politics, is the affectionate bond that

1638
01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:45,800
Speaker 2: I have with my wife and three adult children and

1639
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:46,519
Speaker 2: their children.

1640
01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 3: Well, John Howard, I think that'll do us on that note,

1641
01:45:50,479 --> 01:45:52,920
Speaker 3: and I want to thank you for the privilege of

1642
01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:55,800
Speaker 3: you sharing your time with me and our word inspit

1643
01:45:56,439 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 3: that it really is a privilege and to actually all

1644
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 3: those ideas, but your time really importantly.

1645
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:05,680
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Thanks March. I'm enjoyed it. Thank you.