WEBVTT - Why protests are getting more dangerous 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:09.040 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. On Monday, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:13.160 about six thousand people attended a protest against Israeli President 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.560 Isaac Hertzog's Sydney visit. The event began peacefully, for villas 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.919 began to emerge, showing protesters pepper sprayed, beaten and arrested 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.880 by police. Police say some demonstrators wanted to march to 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.560 New South Wales Parliament despite a restriction making it unlawful, 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.159 and that when orders to disperse were ignored, they had 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.200 to move the crowd. On twenty seven protesters were arrested. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.760 There's been a number of incidents in recent years where 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.400 police have been accused of using excessive force against protesters, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.800 and it comes as officers are increasingly using weapons like 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:53.360 pepper spray and rubber bullets. Today we're bringing you an 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.720 episode from last year where Ruby Jones speaks to journalists 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.440 and author Ariel Bogel on the use of these so 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:06.480 called lethal weapons and how they're changing protests in Australia. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.240 It's Sunday, February fifteen. This episode was first published in 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:12.920 October twenty twenty five. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.760 So Ariel, at the moment, we're seeing weekly public protests, 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.480 thousands of people gathering regularly in pro Palestine marches, also 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.480 climate protests, we saw anti immigration rallies. As all of 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.720 this happens, though, we are also regularly hearing reports of 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.679 people being injured, sometimes quite seriously by police. So can 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:39.959 you tell me some of the stories that you've been 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:41.080 looking at of this happening. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:42.560 So, yeah, I've been tracking. 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.600 These same protests that you're talking about and just noticing 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.880 perhaps an optic in the appearance of what you call 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.840 leslie or police tools. So these are things like oc spray, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.280 pepper spray in some cases, rubber bullets, things called flushbangs 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.280 that kind of let off aloud, like sort of miniature 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:06.680 explosives for one of a better way to put it. 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.400 The inventive branch now also trying to stop this group 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.639 which is on the Clarendon Street. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.840 Side, from coming down along the era. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.320 Jeez, that's so much spray gets in the area. I 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.839 started wondering what impact this might be having on protesters 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.040 or others observing them, And one person I spoke to 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.520 was Alex Zuko. She's a photographer in Melbourne who was 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.520 pepper sprayed while doing her job as a photojournalist at 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.000 a protest in Melbourne towards the end of last year. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.080 It caused her to go blind for about an hour. 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.400 She needed help. There was another photographer too was injured 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.040 at the same protest. He told me he was hit 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.160 in the ear with a rubber bullet and required medical 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:47.079 attention for that. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.560 And tell me a bit more about these weapons, about 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.360 the OC spray and the rubber bullets, these things that 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.320 police seem to be using a protest, What I mean, 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.320 can they cause long term damage? 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:00.959 So when we use the term sea spray, we were 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.440 referring to the kind of chemical compound used in the 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.120 spray that causes that intense burning to the eye. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.160 And people told me it's like getting stabbed in the eye. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.320 You know, it's really excruciating if it gets into your eyeball. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.080 And people probably have heard of pepper spray, but they 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.120 might have this idea it's like a small cannacy sort 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.720 of spray at someone's eye kind of miss These. 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.200 Days, the type that police have. 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.560 Is it's more like a sticky foam, if you can 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.040 imagine it. The issue is too like how to get 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.080 it off. A lot of people who go to the 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.080 protests now have techniques for doing this, but when you 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.280 get home, you need to have a shower, get out 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.320 of your hair, get out of your eyebrows, get out 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.640 of your clothes. But it's not a simple thing to 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.120 get this stuff off. And then of course there are 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.400 things like rubber bullets or different forms of projectiles. We 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.440 heard from somebody Kylie Martin. She says she was shot 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.840 in the leg by police with a projectile she believes 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.280 was a baton round. Just for clarity, a baton round 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.360 they can be fired from a weapon ressembling a kind 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.520 of grenade launcher. So in a statements said that police 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.960 were just shooting into the crowded protesters, and she claims 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.880 to have had lasting pain and damage to her leg. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.280 And when we look at injuries from these tools globally, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.640 we can see really serious instances of injury, brain damage, 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.880 and even death. I think the term less legal quote 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.680 unquote is a bit of a misnomer. Certainly, these tools, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.800 especially projectiles, can be lethal depending on how they're used, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.520 so they're not something to be used lightly. So police 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.080 have growing access to these types of tools, but there 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.039 has been a bit of a lack of public discussion 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.920 or examination. I think of how these tools are being 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.920 used and even what tools are out there. I think 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.360 the average Australian might be quite shocked if they go 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.280 to a protest and see police with some of these things. 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.440 They might never even heard of them. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.719 And so where are these tools developed and how do 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.640 they make their way to Australian police forces. 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.440 Yeah, so when you look at some of the manufacturers 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:59.080 of sea spray, flash bangs, rubber bullets, they do often 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.440 come out of companies that make other more traditionally legal weapons. 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.479 They often have a side trade in these kind of 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.880 less legal policing tools. So we got some new South 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.960 Wales parliamentary documents that show some of the caps can 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.000 spray launchers used by police are made by one of 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.039 Germany's largest arms manufacturers, Ryan Metal. I'm not one hundred 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.279 percent sure what brand the Victoria police use at the moment. 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.320 There have been a range of reports on that topic, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.920 but certainly some of the legal observers at some protests 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.960 in late twenty twenty four, especially outside the Landforces Arms Expo, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.320 which sort of faced a quite significant protests over a 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.760 number of days, observed the use of these flashbank kind 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.159 of devices as well. 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.280 And you know, it's pretty terrifying by all accounts. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:46.440 You know. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.640 I spoke to one police officer in the United States 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.279 who trains officers on how to use these tools, and 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.920 to his mind, they are a form of explosive So 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:56.919 you really have to make sure officers are trained in 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.400 their use and really consider the fact that you throw 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.760 such a thing into a crowd. It can cause panic, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.320 it can cause stampede and cause a range of injuries. 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:09.120 And I guess there's just very little accountability or discussion 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.320 about how police are using these tools. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.680 Coming up the people who are suing police over their 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:27.320 use of force. I think that most Australians think that 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.880 we do or we should have the right peaceful protest, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.600 that being able to do that is an important and 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.679 normal part of living in a democracy. But in recent 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.280 years we have seen various state governments introduced laws that 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.200 restrict that right to protest. So can you tell me 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.239 more about that and about how that has in turn 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.400 affected the way that policing works. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.200 I think Australia's attitude to protest, Matt, I wouldn't say 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.080 it has ever been like one hundred percent friendly. If 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.920 you go and talk to protesters against the damning of 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.520 the Franklin River and MANI you know, there was continuous 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.560 face off with police over that. There've been protests, of course, 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.479 against various conflicts, but reports coming out of places like 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.360 the Human Rights Law Center have suggested there is a 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.120 growing crackdown and they are found at least forty nine 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.320 laws enacted by governments have constricted the right to protest 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:19.840 over the past twenty years. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.040 If we look here in New South. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.760 Wales, where I am our state may be considered to 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.360 have led the pack in that way. There's broad discretion 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.000 now for police to penalize people who disrupt major roads 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.840 or infrastructure, but there's a lot of discretion there for 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.240 police to decide what is a major road, what is infrastructure? 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.320 When they can use these laws, Other states have rolled 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.160 out a suite of similar legislation. What was suggested to 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.800 me by a variety of lawyers and advocates is this 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.840 is creating a permissive environment for use of force by police. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.800 We managed to get our hands on some of the statistics. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.440 There has been an uptick in use of force in 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.720 general in New South Wales and also you know, hundreds 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.760 of documented cases of use of OC spray in Victoria. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.200 Again when you're relying on. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.240 Police to report use of force, it's not always an 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.880 accurate record, so it's a complicated space to get a 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:14.360 really clear picture of. 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.239 But it does seem like use of force in general 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:16.960 is on the up. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.840 So tell me about the data that you have managed 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.120 to gather about the increase in use of force against protesters. 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.280 This is really part of a trend I know at 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.000 this point of at least four settled cases in Victoria 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.360 since twenty twenty one cases have been brought against Victoria 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.439 police and they've been settled over the treatment of photographers 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.720 and journalists, including the use of OC spray. We also 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.000 found there were at least seven protesters alleging police violence 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.079 who have active civil cases in the Victorian County Court. 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.080 There are a range of allegations there, including a dislocated shoulder, 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.080 burning painted testicles, caused by police, including through the use 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.160 of OC spray or foam, and what was claimed to 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:01.120 be unnecessarily violent arrests and through FOI. We did get 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:03.560 data that showed in New South Wales, overall number of 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.199 incidents where force has been used has risen from almost 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:12.120 eighty twenty seventeen eighteen to more than nine thousand in 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.679 the last financial year, but that data couldn't be broken 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.199 down by protest scenarios. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.439 We could see too that oc spray was used almost. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.040 Nine hundred times in New South Wales in the past 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.160 financial year, as well as more than two thousand takedowns, 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.199 which is kind of where police might sweep the leg 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.040 out of somebody to get them to the ground as 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.600 part of an arrest. And we saw there too in 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.040 those stats, fifty four percent of those who had experienced 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.640 a takedown identified themselves as Aboriginal or Torres Strait islander. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.760 And there is the obvious question then of what you 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.280 do if you believe you've been on the other end 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.280 of that, if you've been assaulted by a police officer 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.400 at a protest, Where do you turn? 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:50.000 What do you do? 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.400 Yeah, it's definitely tough. Various states have different mechanisms for 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.640 making complaints. But I spoke to a law professor, Simon Rice. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.040 He won a case against New South Wales PLA a 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.200 few years ago for assault, battery and false imprisonment. He 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.440 was thrown to the ground and arrested while observing a 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:10.760 student protest at Sydney University back in twenty twenty in 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.480 his view, there was no really realistic way of complaining 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.160 about police overstepping the mark. They in general investigate themselves 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.960 if you complain directly. A lot of the oversight bodies 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.920 really take on only kind of systemic instances of police 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.640 misconduct or corruption. And again, as I mentioned, it's really 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.560 hard to get those sheer numbers. You know, after a protest, 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.160 police often come out and announce how many people were 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.319 arrested at an event, but there's not really a public 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.960 record of how many times force was used, what was used, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.800 what tools were used, and whether it was appropriate. So 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.440 that level of accountability is really difficult to obtain without 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.920 taking legal action, and so we did speak to a 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.199 number of protesters who feel their only option to get 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.920 an outcome was to take it to court. There's actually, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.240 in fact, a class action currently underway in Victoria about 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:04.640 police use of OC spray back in twenty nineteen at 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:08.600 the I Mark climate protest, So the outcome there will 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.120 be interesting because that will play out in public. We did, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.720 of course approach police in Victoria and New South Wales 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.400 when working on this story. Victoria police told us that 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.200 it makes no apologies for officers having to use force 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.920 to separate and safely disperse crowds during protests. They said 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.199 they don't attend protests with aim of using force, but 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.200 is always in response to the actions of protesters. 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:33.880 And what effect do you think all. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.760 Of this is, having this use of force protests, both 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.600 on the individual level on people who you know might 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.200 go to protests or you know, decide not to and 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.760 expose as well on the bigger level in terms of 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.200 how you think the very idea of protesting or going 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.960 or peaceful protesting is seen in Australia now. 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.440 Well, certainly people that have been affected by these tools. 0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.280 A lot of the people I spoke with, you know, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.120 remain with them. You know, if you get oc sprayed 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.080 directly in the eyes, that type of pain, you know, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.120 you don't forget it quickly. I think it might, you know, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.360 affect people's willingness. 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:10.040 To share up and protest. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.320 It's part of this overall picture of antagonism in some 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.280 parts of the media to protest. We do have an 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.720 implied right to political communication in the Australian Constitution, which 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.320 is rare as supporting protest, but very little positive law 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.319 about that fact. I think some people when they show 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.880 up to protest might be surprised about the kind of 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.160 use of force that they're facing, because again it's it's 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.480 not well known that police have these kinds of tools 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:35.280 in general. 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.400 Well, Ariel, thank you so much for your time. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:39.360 Thank you so much. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:51.200 Ruby. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.559 I'm Daniel James. Seven am will be back Tomorrow was 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:02.160 an episode on the Pacific Australia Labor Lady Scheme or PALM, 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.920 a program sold as a win win for migrant workers 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.800 and Australian businesses, but that many say creates conditions that 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.280 could amount to modern slavery. Thanks for listening, bye for now.