WEBVTT - ‘A total, miserable, self loathing poser’: The neuroscientist taking on Elon Musk

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk has no shortage of critics, but earlier this

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<v Speaker 1>year one of them stood out. Philip Loow isn't a journalist,

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<v Speaker 1>his neuroscientist, inventor, and once a close friend of Musk.

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<v Speaker 1>That was until he published a scathing post accusing the

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<v Speaker 1>world's richest man of manipulation, narcissism, and a dangerous obsession

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<v Speaker 1>with power. The post exploded online before vanishing almost entirely. Today.

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<v Speaker 1>Contributed to the Saturday Paper, Paula Totaro on what Sparklow's

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<v Speaker 1>dramatic break with Musk and why he's willing to put

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<v Speaker 1>his money where his mouth is to test the limits

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<v Speaker 1>of free speech on platforms Musk and his tech bro

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<v Speaker 1>peers control. It's Thursday, May twenty nine, So, Paula, you

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<v Speaker 1>recently sat down to interview Philip Low, not the former

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<v Speaker 1>Reserve Bank governor, but a neuroscientist and tech ceo. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>me about him and why he wanted to speak to him.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was insomniac early in January when this

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing happened, and I was doom scrolling and I

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<v Speaker 2>read this extraordinary essay by this man that I'd never

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<v Speaker 2>heard of, and literally after reading it, I sent a

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<v Speaker 2>message via Facebook saying, if you ever want to be

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed by some unknown journalist in London, I'd love to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to you, and months later it happened.

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<v Speaker 3>As a neuroscientists, I believe that my core of responsibility

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<v Speaker 3>is to produce the data.

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<v Speaker 4>But as a technologist, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Believe that I have a responsibility to follow my work

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<v Speaker 3>into the world and make sure there's used properly.

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<v Speaker 5>Lo is a bit of a wonder kind. He's now

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<v Speaker 5>forty five.

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<v Speaker 2>He was mentored by the late great molecular biologists USCRIC

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<v Speaker 2>and he earned his PhD in an error called computational

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<v Speaker 2>neurobiology and presented a mathematical technique which basically allows the

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<v Speaker 2>mapping of easy mapping of brain waves his eyebrain probe

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<v Speaker 2>again to read sleep and brain waves.

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<v Speaker 5>Launched a couple of years ago in four American states.

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<v Speaker 2>One point four percent of AT stock was sold for

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five million, So that value the company it's six billion,

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<v Speaker 2>And if you think back to the same point of

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<v Speaker 2>raising a venture capital for Facebook, that valuation is twelve

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<v Speaker 2>times what Facebook is. But the essay was excoriating it

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<v Speaker 2>was the most sort of skin blistering thing I've ever

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<v Speaker 2>read of, you know, of a billionaire titan Ellen Musk,

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<v Speaker 2>And at that point he was, you know, with Trump

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<v Speaker 2>all the time, chainsaws the rest of it, And I

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<v Speaker 2>just thought, Wow, somebody that has actually finally taken this

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<v Speaker 2>guy on and doesn't seem to be scared of him.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about the essa, About what it was he

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<v Speaker 1>was saying exactly, and what was your immediate reaction to it.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, it was quite long, you know, it was about

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen hundred words when I finally sort of transferred it

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<v Speaker 2>onto a word document. And he effectively established his long

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<v Speaker 2>friendship with Masks, So you knew that it was somebody

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<v Speaker 2>that wasn't just whistling out of their bottoms if you liked.

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<v Speaker 2>They'd met in Paris a long time before they then

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<v Speaker 2>became friends. They then became business partners and had a

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<v Speaker 2>long association at some point you know that they shared

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<v Speaker 2>information about the women in their lives, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 5>But the essay itself was a takedown.

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<v Speaker 6>He was being aggressive with people who had his best

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<v Speaker 6>interest at height, not with me. But I noticed them

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<v Speaker 6>do that with a number of people, and I felt

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<v Speaker 6>that as a friend, I wouldn't be in his corner

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<v Speaker 6>if I didn't call him out on it, so I did.

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<v Speaker 5>Lo didn't hold back.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he used words like, you know that Musk

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<v Speaker 2>is a narcissist with an obsessive lust for power. He

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<v Speaker 2>called him a total, miserable, self loathing poser. He accused

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<v Speaker 2>him of going for the most vulnerable in US society

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<v Speaker 2>and using his role with DOGE to attack the very

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<v Speaker 2>organizations and you know that were looking at his own businesses.

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<v Speaker 2>He described him as a man who in fact didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really understand technology, didn't really understand algorithms.

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<v Speaker 6>Respectful the ICAI, that's bullshit. And just like when he

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<v Speaker 6>calls himself a free speech absolutist when he clearly is

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<v Speaker 6>boosting certain voices on excluding his own, and shotow banning

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<v Speaker 6>others relatively speaking. So I know him too well to

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<v Speaker 6>understand that this is a charade.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think all this came from the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that Lowe himself's father is a Holocaust survivor.

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<v Speaker 5>And obviously what I.

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<v Speaker 2>Think sparked his theory was the the Nazi salute. All right,

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<v Speaker 2>so we just we just showed that right, it's worth

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<v Speaker 2>it was quick.

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<v Speaker 7>I think our viewers are smart, and.

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<v Speaker 5>That musk, then later denied was a Nazi salute.

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<v Speaker 1>Just this is the most This is the biggest, This

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<v Speaker 1>is the biggest, and.

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<v Speaker 5>So yeah, he demanded an apology.

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<v Speaker 2>He described a musk slow sort of deterioration, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the way they fell out as friends.

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<v Speaker 5>It was quite the read.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure well millions of people have read it since,

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<v Speaker 2>but it really surprised low I think he really seemed

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<v Speaker 2>quite shell shot steel that had gone so viral. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember that night just thinking, wow, passed the popcorn. This

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<v Speaker 2>is amazing. Low has since accused Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>of suppressing his posts. At the time, he published an

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<v Speaker 2>abridged version of this essay on LinkedIn, and that disappeared

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<v Speaker 2>straight away. Apparently had to take legual action to get

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<v Speaker 2>it put back. But since, you know, there's been sort

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<v Speaker 2>of collection of data by Lowe's team to show that

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<v Speaker 2>this essay had been diluted, not shared, you know, algorithms

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<v Speaker 2>tweaked to sort of lower its impact. But in that

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<v Speaker 2>initial burst it was huge.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was alleging that the post was removed and

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<v Speaker 1>the ability to share it was suppressed. So how is

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<v Speaker 1>he planning to prosecute that argument? How's he fighting back?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because you know, one of the things

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<v Speaker 2>that Lowe told me during this interview is that he's

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<v Speaker 2>set aside two hundred and fifty million US to start

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<v Speaker 2>testing freedom of speech in various states in the US

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<v Speaker 2>where consumer law is particularly strong and.

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<v Speaker 5>Carries with it criminal penalties.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting that they've chosen a couple of states in

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<v Speaker 2>the US, particularly California, where the pledge to promise something

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<v Speaker 2>even if it is free, even if it's a product

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<v Speaker 2>that has produced free and not delivering carries with it

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<v Speaker 2>severe sanctions, including prison sentences. And what his team have done,

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<v Speaker 2>and we don't quite know how because obviously he's not

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<v Speaker 2>going to put his gump out on the table, is

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<v Speaker 2>that they've collected information to show the way that algorithms

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<v Speaker 2>have either been changed, tweaked to stop shares, to remove posts,

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<v Speaker 2>and also apparently to dilute followers.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned freedom of speech does load basically see this

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<v Speaker 1>as a test of the various social media platforms commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to free speech, something meta Facebook and X talk about

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<v Speaker 1>a lot.

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that's one of his driving moments

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<v Speaker 2>or driving forces.

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<v Speaker 5>Is that you go and test this.

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<v Speaker 2>You say you are platforms of freedom of speech. You've

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<v Speaker 2>removed your teams that were checking posts. As Zuckerberg announced

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<v Speaker 2>earlier this year, We're going to.

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<v Speaker 4>Get rid of fact checkers and replace them with community notes,

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<v Speaker 4>similar to acts starting in the US.

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<v Speaker 2>You promise this as your brand, Let's test it again.

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<v Speaker 2>He gets very passionate about this is a promise. You've

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<v Speaker 2>made your life on this, your money on this, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're failing to do it. You can see if you

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<v Speaker 2>look at both particularly Facebook and LinkedIn. He continues to test,

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<v Speaker 2>so he'll put something up and then clearly the teams

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<v Speaker 2>are watching what happens and analyzing what happens. He's really

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<v Speaker 2>very very vocal about Europe really turning its attention to

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<v Speaker 2>the regulation of these mega platforms. You know, he spoke

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<v Speaker 2>a lot about the UK, you know, finding its Churchillian

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<v Speaker 2>spirit and really taking them on. So, you know, apart

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<v Speaker 2>from taking on these test cases, I think that he's

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<v Speaker 2>acting as a sort of public advocate who who. He

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<v Speaker 2>says he's fearless and clearly is. I mean, if you've

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<v Speaker 2>got billions behind you, I guess you can you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not fearful of these kind of arguments.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, Low makes it personal.

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<v Speaker 2>Palla.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the more incendiary parts of Low's post is

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<v Speaker 1>that he goes after Elon Musk's character and credibility. When

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<v Speaker 1>you met with him, what did he tell you about

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<v Speaker 1>the man himself?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's no doubt that these are two men that

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<v Speaker 2>were friends. I remember looking at a really interesting video

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<v Speaker 2>which is still up on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to thank you Elon and Philip for

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<v Speaker 1>joining me here and sharing your thoughts about consciousness and

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<v Speaker 1>enlightenment and technology.

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<v Speaker 2>A young scientist interviewing the two when they were very

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<v Speaker 2>young Musk and Low.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it was just when I was in college. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>I think, what are the things that are most can

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<v Speaker 5>affect the future humanity? And oring to be involved in

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<v Speaker 5>at least some of those things.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you could tell our friends they were sort

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<v Speaker 2>of talking about how they were going to change the world,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, their bright, brilliant young minds that were sort

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<v Speaker 2>of taking on the tech world.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm an accidental entrepreneur, and before that, I was an

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<v Speaker 4>accidental neuroscientist. And before that I was a mathematician. And

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<v Speaker 4>then it wasn't until Stephen Hawkin asked me to help

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<v Speaker 4>him with his last that I became really involved in

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<v Speaker 4>trying to access consciousness in humans.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's fairly obvious that over a period of time

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<v Speaker 2>there was business clashes as well, clearly sort of rivalry

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<v Speaker 2>at some point. And then if you look at the

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<v Speaker 2>neurovidual Lowe's website, you see that Musk is still an advisor,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's clear that he has no sort of financial interests,

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<v Speaker 2>no advisory in etcetera, etcetera. So there was a big

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<v Speaker 2>sort of behind the scenes breakup of a business friendship

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I suspect did he speak to you at all about

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<v Speaker 1>Musk's involvement in politics and had did he view his

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<v Speaker 1>growing influence with things like Doze and his closeness with

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because by the time we spoke, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Musk has he's not quite on the stage with his

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<v Speaker 2>chainsaws and sort of breastfeeding as he was. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think one of the things that Lowe was unable to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of quell was his true joy at the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, Tesla and his stock had gotten down.

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<v Speaker 2>He talked about great worries about these platforms, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>meta as well influence in Europe and sort of bolstering

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<v Speaker 2>right wing governments.

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<v Speaker 7>In December, Musk waded into Germany's election campaign, calling the

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<v Speaker 7>far right anti immigration Alternative for Germany Party or AfD,

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<v Speaker 7>the country's savior.

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<v Speaker 1>It's proud, it's okay, it's good to be proud of

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<v Speaker 1>German culture, German.

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<v Speaker 5>Values, and not to lose that in some.

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<v Speaker 2>Sort of multiculturalism that that lodes everything. You know, he

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<v Speaker 2>clearly has a great fear that these platforms are being

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<v Speaker 2>harnessed in a way to open the door to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of discourse that occurred, you know, as we saw pre

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<v Speaker 2>World War two and which resulted in the horrors that

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<v Speaker 2>we thought we'd never see again. So I think he's

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<v Speaker 2>very motivated by history too.

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<v Speaker 1>I think has low paid any costs for speaking out.

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<v Speaker 5>Well. I asked him about that. The first thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I asked him, you know, how are you because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he spent months in battle with this man, and he said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not actually, you know, I'm not in Ol Salvador

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<v Speaker 2>yet and laughed. But then when I asked him later

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<v Speaker 2>about how he felt, he does. He now employs security

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<v Speaker 2>and he says that he's had death threats some many

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<v Speaker 2>not credible, but some credible enough for him to need

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<v Speaker 2>to hire armed security while he's in a America. So

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't dwell on it. He says he's fearless. He

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<v Speaker 2>says he's not going to be cowed. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>probably life has changed a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, Palla, what's Phillip's end goal here when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to his activism and the money that he's putting forward.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of world does you want to see?

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<v Speaker 4>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>For some reason, I'd stumbled on an ad and an

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<v Speaker 2>old Apple ab that had flashes of sort of Martin

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<v Speaker 2>Luther King, great people of history, and this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>sense that Silicon Valley at the time was for diverse people,

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:32.479
<v Speaker 2>people that thought differently.

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:40.400
<v Speaker 8>Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers,

0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.440
<v Speaker 8>the round pegs and the square halls.

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<v Speaker 5>You know what's happened?

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I asked him, you know, why is it that these

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 2>technocrats are now shutting down free speech and they're beside

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 2>people like Trump? And he was remarkably optimistic. He said, Look, actually,

0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.760
<v Speaker 2>we still believe that most of us do. We still

0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.240
<v Speaker 2>think that freedom of speech is important. We still think

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 2>that We're in the world of ideas, and I think

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:08.200
<v Speaker 2>that's his sort of ultimate aim is to bring back

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<v Speaker 2>a spotlight to science and the things that are being

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<v Speaker 2>attacked in America and bring them back to where they belong,

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, intellectual discussions, civil discourse. I think there are

0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 2>things that matter to him, and I suppose a lot

0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 2>of it.

0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Palla, thank you so much for your time, absolute pleasure.

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.280
<v Speaker 1>You can read Power's full reporting in this week's edition

0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:45.040
<v Speaker 1>of the Saturday paper. Also in the news, Opposition leader

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 1>Susan Lee has announced her new shadow cabinet. The new

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>economic term will be led by Deputy Leader Ted O'Brien

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 1>as Shadow treasurer. Former Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor has been

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 1>a pointed shadow Defense Minister. Meanwhile, Senator just sent to

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 1>a Napple Jipper Price, who defected from the Nationals to

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<v Speaker 1>the Liberal Party, has been relegated into the outer ministry

0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 1>as shadow Defense to Industry Minister and Environment Minister Murray

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<v Speaker 1>Watt says he plans to approve Woodside Energy's proposal to

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<v Speaker 1>extend the life of one of the world's biggest liquefied

0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 1>natural gas projects from twenty thirty to twenty seventy. What

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<v Speaker 1>says the sign off of the Northwest Shelf gas processing

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.000
<v Speaker 1>plant comes with strict air pollution conditions and Woodsite now

0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.320
<v Speaker 1>has ten days to respond. Opponents of the extension more

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<v Speaker 1>local pollution will damage a globally significant collection of ancient

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 1>rock card across what is known as the Murrajuga cultural

0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 1>landscape and released billions of tons of future greenhouse gases.

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 1>For more on this story, you can listen to Monday's

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:47.040
<v Speaker 1>episode of seven AM titled the Carbon Baum Awaiting Australia's

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<v Speaker 1>new Environment Minister. This has been today's episode of seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening, Bo