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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: Victoria and police detective Norell Fraser. If you listen to

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Speaker 1: part one, you heard some I got to say, Nerell

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy stuff, but that is the nature of the

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Speaker 1: work that you also heard about Norell talking the way

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Speaker 1: that she went about their investigations, and the compassion and

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Speaker 1: the empathy she had, and when we're talking about victims

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Speaker 1: of serious crimes, we're not making light in any way

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Speaker 1: of the nature of these crimes. This is the world

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Speaker 1: of crime, and this is what we talk about on

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Speaker 1: the Eye Catch Killers and the consequences when someone's life

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Speaker 1: is taken. It's not just a person whose life's taken,

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Speaker 1: it's the amount of people around around them. It just

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Speaker 1: it escalates, doesn't it. It's not just the victim or

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Speaker 1: the immediate family that's a friends, it's generational that just

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Speaker 1: passes on.

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Speaker 2: And you know, in saying that, I do feel like,

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Speaker 2: let's say, John Sharp, you know, his mum and dad

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Speaker 2: and his family were the innocent also innocent victims in

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Speaker 2: all this, and I never want to take away from

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Speaker 2: the fact that they have suffered as well. But you

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Speaker 2: know it's not their fault as to what John did,

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Speaker 2: and they must feel I imagine, terrible shame. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying. And also just another thing,

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Speaker 2: when I was talking before about being euphoric, ID I

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Speaker 2: do think sometimes I hope, I feel like I have

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Speaker 2: to justify that, and you did very well. But just

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Speaker 2: to say, as a detective, when you put twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven months into a job, an investigation and you

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Speaker 2: find the evidence that you're looking for. You do feel

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Speaker 2: like everything else goes away because you are just so

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Speaker 2: wrapped that you've found what you're looking for, even if

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Speaker 2: that is a body. It sounds terrible, but so I

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Speaker 2: don't want people to think, you know, you for it

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Speaker 2: finding your body.

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Speaker 1: You know, Noelle, what you're saying to me, I fully understand.

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Speaker 1: I think you know. We're trying to take people into

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Speaker 1: the world world of crime, and they might look and go,

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Speaker 1: what are these two idiots talking about? Do they have

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Speaker 1: any comprehension? You spent twenty seven years in the police.

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Speaker 1: That's how you survive that. You've got to focus. You've

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Speaker 1: got to have the highs and lows. And I always

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Speaker 1: give people sometimes when we're talking about this, sometimes the

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Speaker 1: victims see highs and lowers, Like I've dealt with the

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Speaker 1: families of murdered victims, and they've got to find some joy.

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Speaker 1: And I won't say joy in a strange sort of way,

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Speaker 1: but they've got to be able to laugh at situations.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise it's just too dark. And I think police, when

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Speaker 1: you've been doing policing for a long time, you've got

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Speaker 1: to take the good moments and enjoy it. You'll go

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Speaker 1: home after feeling you for it. And I've been there.

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Speaker 1: I've been there where a case is cracked and you've

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Speaker 1: got the breakthrough you need and you're all high five

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Speaker 1: in each other and you're running around. When you get

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Speaker 1: back to your home and you sit there and think

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Speaker 1: about what has gone on, that's when it hits you.

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Speaker 1: When you're laying there at night going or you're getting

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Speaker 1: up the next day getting ready to go to work

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Speaker 1: and you've got to face this horror. So I think

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Speaker 1: people understand, so you don't have tologize, and I think

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Speaker 1: that people listen to it in totality understand exactly where

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Speaker 1: you're coming from. I'm just going to change direction very quickly,

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Speaker 1: policing off the top of your head a moment that

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Speaker 1: you were really scared for your life, because most people

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Speaker 1: have spent long enough in police that there's a time

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Speaker 1: when you have that off. Shit, what's going to happen here?

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Speaker 2: Did have to be to do with the Wolsh Street Well,

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Speaker 2: I think I don't know if they were convicted in

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Speaker 2: the end, when everywhere but a guy called Victor Pierce.

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Speaker 2: Victor Pierce was part of the Carlton Gang Carlton Crew,

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Speaker 2: and he had him and three others had just been

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Speaker 2: acquitted of the Wolsh Street murders. And two days after that,

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, Victoria police were just devastated. It

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Speaker 2: was a pretty difficult time to be in the job.

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Speaker 2: And so they get acquitted and two days later I'm

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Speaker 2: working undercover, just doing some we used to call them

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Speaker 2: special duties where you're in plain clothes and you're just

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Speaker 2: driving around, you know, looking at assisting the uniform members

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Speaker 2: or looking for drug deals and all that sort of stuff. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: we're in North Melbourne and there's a call across the

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Speaker 2: radio to say that there's a man that's being held

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Speaker 2: by a Vietnamese storeholder, a milk bar owner under the

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Speaker 2: North Melbourne flats. They were Housing Commission flats, and nobody

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Speaker 2: was available to do this job. And so myself and

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Speaker 2: my two colleagues we came up on the radio and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was a theft of a jar coffee,

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Speaker 2: I think, and oh look we'll do that, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's easy. So anyway, we drive up and we see

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Speaker 2: this man and he is surrounded by probably twenty Vietnamese

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Speaker 2: and the milk bar was under the flats, so it's

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Speaker 2: outside on the sort of fore court just outside the

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Speaker 2: milk bar, and there's this man and he's holding this

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Speaker 2: little girl in it, holding her hand, and there's lots

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Speaker 2: and lots of yelling, and anyway, as we walk towards

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Speaker 2: what's going on, we all realize the man in the

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Speaker 2: middle is Victor Piers. He's just been acquitted two days prior,

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Speaker 2: and it was like, oh my god. And I can

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Speaker 2: remember thinking is this a setup? Because the North Melbourne

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Speaker 2: Flats that's where a number of the suspects lived. One

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Speaker 2: of them lived up in the one or two lived

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Speaker 2: up in the flats. So I actually thought that we

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Speaker 2: were going to be shot from above.

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Speaker 1: Just calling you in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And so I remember just wanting

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Speaker 2: to get out of the forecourt underneath the milk bar. Anyway, Look,

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Speaker 2: we eventually did. We got under there, and we ended

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Speaker 2: up charging him. We couldn't we got him. He was

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Speaker 2: acquitted for the Wall Street merders. But we got in

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Speaker 2: for a theft of a jar of coffee for two

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Speaker 2: dollars fifty eight.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well it's a they got al capane for tax evasions,

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Speaker 1: so I suppose it's a stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I remember feeling like that. And there was

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Speaker 2: one other time where there was a guy taking potshots

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Speaker 2: on the top of a housing commission in Collingwood and

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Speaker 2: we arrived and we didn't know where he was, and

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Speaker 2: we could hear them, and I remember hiding behind a

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Speaker 2: bush and thinking, I'm gone here, because you know, we

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Speaker 2: were just so obvious. I thought we would be anyway

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Speaker 2: in the end. We had our guns out, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: women and all that sort of stuff. But that was

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Speaker 2: pretty frightening. But I think Victor Pierce was the one

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Speaker 2: where I thought, oh my god, this is a setup.

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Speaker 1: You felt pretty vulnerable there. Yeah, I understand in the circumstances. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right. We talked about that case in part one.

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Speaker 1: There's another case that in the research I've done that

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Speaker 1: you've been involved in, and that was the I've referred

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Speaker 1: it to as a body in the Bookcase of Maria Corp.

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Speaker 1: That was two thousand and five, that that occurred. You

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Speaker 1: were involved in that. Can you tell us your involvement

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Speaker 1: in the nature of the case and what happened.

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Speaker 2: Maria Corp was married to Joe Corp. They lived in

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Speaker 2: a lovely, quite spacious place in Greenvale. I think it

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Speaker 2: was in Victoria and Maria hadn't picked up her son

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Speaker 2: Damien after school, which was very normal, so the police

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Speaker 2: were Joe Corp actually rang the police on that night,

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Speaker 2: was the ninth of feb in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 2: and Joe rang to say he was concerned about his wife.

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Speaker 2: She hadn't picked up their son and it was very unusual.

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Speaker 2: Joe went to the Craigieburn police station to report this.

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Speaker 2: But again the police at Craigiebourne, they just smelt a rat.

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Speaker 2: There was just something not right. No, it did not

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Speaker 2: add up. But what eventually happened is that we get

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Speaker 2: the job. I'm at Missing Persons still and we get

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Speaker 2: the job because you know, her disappearance is out of character.

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Speaker 2: So we get the job very quickly and we interview Joe,

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Speaker 2: you know, just what's happened. We get a statement from him,

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Speaker 2: We speak to the school, we speak to the young boy,

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Speaker 2: you know, a whole lot of stuff, just normal investative stuff.

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Speaker 2: But what we find there's a few things that start happening.

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Speaker 2: Joe has told us that the marriage was happy, but

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Speaker 2: then we find that he's been on the internet looking

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Speaker 2: for threesomes and he happened to have found a threesome

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Speaker 2: with a woman called Tanya. We speak to Tanya and yeah,

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Speaker 2: her and Joe and Maria have had a threesome. Know

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Speaker 2: nothing to see here, so we smell obviously, we smell

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Speaker 2: a rat. But we do a media release and we

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Speaker 2: ask if anyone sees Maria's car because it's missing, if

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Speaker 2: they see it, can they call it in. Well, on

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Speaker 2: this Sunday morning, I happen to be working at Saint

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Speaker 2: Kilda Road and the Shrine of Remembrance is just across

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Speaker 2: the road from where we were working, and a shrine

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Speaker 2: guard rings and says, I think I've got the car,

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Speaker 2: and we say, don't touch it.

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Speaker 1: This is Maria's car.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, don't touch it. We'll be there. And literally

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Speaker 2: five minutes we almost could have seen it from our window.

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Speaker 2: And so we raced down there and it was that

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Speaker 2: close you wouldn't get a car like that's how close

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Speaker 2: it was. We just virtually ran across the road and

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Speaker 2: anyway we see the car, and probably eighty meters away

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Speaker 2: we could smell it. You would know there is a

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Speaker 2: smell about a dead body that is hard to describe,

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Speaker 2: but it is unmistakable, and we could smell it from

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Speaker 2: about eighty meters. But also there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: condensation inside the car, so we were pretty sure that

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Speaker 2: she was in there anyway, So we called in everybody

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Speaker 2: and the I don't know about twenty minutes and everyone's there.

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Speaker 2: But I know at the time we were considering do

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Speaker 2: we open up the boot because we might contaminate the scene,

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Speaker 2: you know. So there was a bit of doing and throwing,

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Speaker 2: and always felt uncomfortable about that because I wanted to

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Speaker 2: get in there to make sure she was dead. But

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Speaker 2: in the end it was decided we wait for the

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Speaker 2: texts the technical guys to come anyway. They they're there

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Speaker 2: within minutes, and of course, looking in the car, we

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Speaker 2: set up a crime scene and all that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 2: the crime scene tape. But looking in the car, she

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Speaker 2: wasn't in the front, she wasn't in the back, so

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Speaker 2: we knew that she would be in the hatch.

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Speaker 1: It was a hatch brunk in the back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, and the smell was overpowering and we eventually

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Speaker 2: get the boot open, and I'll never forget there was

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Speaker 2: probably about ten homicide detectives at the back of the

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Speaker 2: boot and when they opened the boot, me included and

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Speaker 2: when we opened the boot, it was just like a

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Speaker 2: wave of this horrendous smell. One of the detectives fainted,

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Speaker 2: a couple were being sick. It was just that that smell.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, it was her.

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Speaker 1: End decayne flesh.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, decaying. And there's little Maria, and she's like

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Speaker 2: in the fetal position, and she's a tiny little woman

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Speaker 2: and she's all disheveled, like she's got all her clothes

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Speaker 2: up around her chest, and she's clearly deceased because she's decomposing.

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Speaker 2: And so we just to see her there, so helpless

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Speaker 2: and so alone and almost like a frightened little animal.

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Speaker 2: And somebody had to get in to see if she was,

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Speaker 2: you know, to make sure that she was dead. And

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Speaker 2: so I just did it without thinking, you know, Gary,

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Speaker 2: like you just don't think. I just wanted to sort

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Speaker 2: of comfort her, I suppose. And so I get in

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Speaker 2: and I sort of get myself around so that I'm

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Speaker 2: almost spooning her because I'm looking for signs of life, obviously,

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Speaker 2: but she's decomposing. She had blood coming from her ears,

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Speaker 2: and so I remember, you know, checking for signs of life,

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Speaker 2: and I couldn't find anything. So I go to the sergeant, No, look,

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Speaker 2: she's she's dead. But just on a bit of a whim,

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Speaker 2: I thought, I'll just make one hundred and ten percent sure.

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Speaker 2: So somehow I managed to get it so that my

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Speaker 2: head was I could see her chest. I couldn't believe it,

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Speaker 2: but her chest just moved ever so slowly up and down,

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Speaker 2: and I remember thinking like yelling, oh my god, she's alive.

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Speaker 2: So of course everyone rallies round into action. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: when I saw her little chest move up and down,

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Speaker 2: it was again it was euphoric. I wasn't euphoric, but

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Speaker 2: it was like, oh God, So everyone rallies ran into action.

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Speaker 1: Can I like, I think a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: done the body in the boot situation where you're opening

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Speaker 1: a boot and there's a body there. And I very

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Speaker 1: much know the smell the body fluids coming out of

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Speaker 1: the car. I just I can smell it as we

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Speaker 1: talk about it. But I just got to wind your back.

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Speaker 1: You got in the boot, like I've seen bodies in boots.

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Speaker 1: We weren't sure, but there were a human body or

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Speaker 1: a carcass. You know that's in fact it can have

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Speaker 1: You actually got in the back the hatchback checking signs

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Speaker 1: of life, which of course you have to do. You

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Speaker 1: can't make assumptions. So how did you feel when you

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Speaker 1: saw a chest rise? Like I would have, I was

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Speaker 1: jumped through the roof. It would have scared hell out

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Speaker 1: of me.

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Speaker 2: What you No, I wasn't scared. I was just Oh,

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Speaker 2: I was shocked because because she was decomposing and just

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Speaker 2: the smell, as you say, of like decaying flesh. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't expecting it. But then maybe in a way it

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Speaker 2: was why would I you know, like funny, like all

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Speaker 2: these signs of life, there's nothing, And then I put

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Speaker 2: my head on her chest, you know, I just but

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Speaker 2: it was shocked, Gary, I just wasn't expecting it. And

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Speaker 2: I remember just yelling at the top of my voice,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, she's alive. Like I think that could

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Speaker 2: have heard it twenty kilometers away. I was just so yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was shocked, and everyone else was too, and it

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, quick, get the ambulance, you know, all

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, but absolute shock. I was the

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Speaker 2: laugh thing on earth.

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Speaker 1: I was expecting I could imagine, so that the ambulance come.

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Speaker 1: She didn't survive or take it.

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Speaker 2: No, And just with the ambulance, I never ever let

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Speaker 2: go again. I sound all this, I sound very fluffy

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Speaker 2: and soft, but like this woman is in the back

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Speaker 2: of her I'm sorry. And she had all these marks

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Speaker 2: around her neck and that they were bleeding as well,

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Speaker 2: and so again I just couldn't leave her. And I

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Speaker 2: remember my my sergeant said don't leave her, stay with her,

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Speaker 2: because we were thinking, by some miracle that she might

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Speaker 2: actually wake up and say it was Joe, you know,

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Speaker 2: or whoever. And so I didn't leave her. I was

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Speaker 2: in the back in the ambulance with her. Anyway, we

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Speaker 2: got to the hospital and there was people waiting for us.

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Speaker 2: We get into the operating room and because everyone's you know,

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Speaker 2: so they rip open her did they rip open a shirt?

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Speaker 2: But I took all her clothing and everything. She never

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Speaker 2: ever regained consciousness. She was in a coma for six months,

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Speaker 2: and there were all sorts of legal issues, the Public

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Speaker 2: Advocates Office and representing Maria. It was oh, it was yeah,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot going on, but she never regained consciousness.

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Speaker 2: When we founder, there was a number of detectives that

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Speaker 2: want to put up their hand and say, I want

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Speaker 2: to go and tell Joe, because we knew he was

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Speaker 2: behind it. By this stage, we believe.

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Speaker 1: I'd want to tell Joe and tell Joe that she's

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Speaker 1: still alive too.

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Speaker 2: That would have been that is exactly. So they are

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Speaker 2: all these detectives wanting to be the one to say

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Speaker 2: to Joe, Joe were founder, and she's alive, you know.

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Speaker 2: But what we found out, so I will go back

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Speaker 2: in a minute. But six months later she passes away,

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Speaker 2: never agains consciousness, and on the day of her funeral,

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Speaker 2: Joe ended his life. So but prior to that, Tanya,

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Speaker 2: So the threesome, the third member, yeh, Tanya becomes a

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Speaker 2: prosecution witness, and she became a prosecution witness to be honest,

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Speaker 2: within days she realized, you know, because Joe was blaming

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Speaker 2: her and saying, oh, she'd done it and anyway, So

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Speaker 2: she became a prosecution witness and she was invaluable her information.

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Speaker 2: But what had happened was her and Joe fell in

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Speaker 2: lusting love whatever you want to call it. And the

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Speaker 2: only way that they could that they Joe thought that

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Speaker 2: they could be together was to get rid of Maria.

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Speaker 2: So Joe orchestrated everything. He went and bought the balaclava

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Speaker 2: for Tanya was the one that actually tried to strangle her,

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Speaker 2: so she.

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Speaker 1: Was involved in the actual offense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, completely, So her and Joe decide this is what

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Speaker 2: they're going to do. So Joe goes and gets I

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Speaker 2: don't know, let's say the Balaclavi, some tape, organizes a

320
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Speaker 2: whole lot of things. But Tanya actually does the job.

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Speaker 2: So he says, look, if you come around to the

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Speaker 2: house at ten past seven tomorrow morning, I'll make sure

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Speaker 2: the kids are in bed or whatever. And as she

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Speaker 2: comes down the stairs, strangler and put her in the

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Speaker 2: back of the boot killer. And you know, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think they actually thought much after the strangling, and

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Speaker 2: so Tanya was very complicit, and she says, that's what

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Speaker 2: you know, this is what she did. The love scary.

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Speaker 1: You know, Look I I so many times, you know,

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Speaker 1: someone disappears, someone's morth is it love lust, this or that?

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Speaker 1: So many times and you would have seen it. I've

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Speaker 1: seen that. It's just people that can't leave their partner

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Speaker 1: and the So it's easier than chasing facing the shame

334
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Speaker 1: of saying, look, I don't love you anymore and move

335
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Speaker 1: it away from the relationship, or just I want to

336
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: move on with my life end up killing their partners,

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Speaker 1: and invariably the cases that I'm familiar with or personally

338
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Speaker 1: involved in, it it's a husband that's got the new

339
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: girlfriend and taken out of life insurance policy on the wife.

340
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Speaker 1: And look, the wife has just disappeared or she drowned

341
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Speaker 1: or something like that. But it's just it's callous and

342
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Speaker 1: it just it just when we talk homicide, people often

343
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Speaker 1: think there's, you know, there's this big conspiracy, it's people

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Speaker 1: are planning and all that. Sometimes it's just for such

345
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Speaker 1: a waste of a life, for something like that.

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Speaker 2: And it was just it's a cowards way out. As

347
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 2: you say, well, I mean people have a fair you know,

348
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Speaker 2: it was just a cowards way out. Why didn't he have,

349
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Speaker 2: pardon me, the balls to go up to her and say, Maria,

350
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Speaker 2: I actually I really liked he organized.

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Speaker 1: He went to the trouble organizing the threesome and getting

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Speaker 1: that all sorted out. And then yeah, I didn't it's

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Speaker 1: going to kill the woman he married to run off

354
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Speaker 1: with the other lady.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's and you know, the sad I mean,

356
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Speaker 2: there's a lot of sad things in this store. But

357
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Speaker 2: another sad thing is that all Tanya wanted was to

358
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Speaker 2: find somebody to care for her and to love, let's say,

359
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: but she's prepared to murder for it, like I think,

360
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Speaker 2: my god, but without tenure, we never ever would have

361
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Speaker 2: got we'd never have got very far.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, sometimes, and it's always hard these situations,

363
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Speaker 1: but sometimes you've from a prosecution point of view, you've

364
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Speaker 1: got to well, I can't get everyone. If you assist prosecution,

365
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: then get whatever benefits come from that. To solve the

366
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Speaker 1: case with Tanya, what was her sentence? Do you know

367
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Speaker 1: what she was sentenced for?

368
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Speaker 2: I think twelve years and I know she's out now

369
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: and hopefully she's leading, yes, and leading a good life.

370
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Speaker 2: This my sound bras are, but she was actually quite

371
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Speaker 2: a nice person. All she wanted was, you know, some love.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it that the people the things that

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Speaker 1: they do for those type of emotions. But Jesus Norell,

374
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Speaker 1: there the two cases you've talked about a pretty pretty

375
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 1: heavy stuff. And yeah, the involvement in it and finding

376
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: bodies and just being involved in those type of investigations

377
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: carry carry some trauma associated with it. And I want

378
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: to I want to talk about your career that you

379
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: and I think some of the articles I've seen you

380
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: be quoted on that there's nothing to be ashamed of

381
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Speaker 1: when you realize, look, I've had enough of this type

382
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: of work. It's adding up and I can't take it

383
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: any more, or I neither break. Do you want to

384
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: tell us about your story?

385
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it. It wasn't that easy. I fell

386
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: over big time, and I wasn't expecting it. You know,

387
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 2: you start to think that you're invincible, and you start

388
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: to think a year, you know, I've had a bit

389
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 2: on but maybe I'm just a bit tired. Like I

390
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: didn't lose interest. I was going full bore until those

391
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: seventeen hundred videos. That was in May of twenty twelve,

392
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Speaker 2: when so all this has been building up obviously over

393
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Speaker 2: the years. I've got no idea that I am very,

394
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 2: very sick mentally. But you know, I had no idea.

395
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: I just thought, you know, I do this stuff that

396
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: you know now, and then it gets a bit a bit.

397
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: Rough and people closely noticed something was going on. You

398
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: hit it problem.

399
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: We're pretty good, aren't we gary at hiding things? And

400
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: that's exactly.

401
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: But I deny that allegation.

402
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: I thought you're mo but like I didn't know myself

403
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: what was happening, So I don't know how other people could.

404
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: But you know, I often look back and I think

405
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: if somebody would have said to me, anybody, And this

406
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: is why I want to talk about mental illness, about stress,

407
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress disorder, which is what I was diagnosed with.

408
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 2: It is nothing to be ashamed of. It's just we've

409
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: got to stop this stigma about mental illness because what

410
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: happened to me. I watched all this is happening, and

411
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: then I watched those seventeen hundred videos. And then a

412
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: couple of days later, I was required. I was an

413
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: informant in a court case. An informant like it's a committal.

414
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: It's pretty important stuff, you know, evidences, witnesses and exhibits

415
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. And I remember this

416
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: particular morning, I've been feeling a bit tired. You know,

417
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: I'm not sleeping well, and again you make excuses. I

418
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: don't know what's going on. And so this particular morning,

419
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get this sixteen year old girl to

420
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: come to court to give evidence against a father and

421
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: a son who had raped her, and she was she

422
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 2: wouldn't come. I had to get it at court, because

423
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: if I don't get it at court, I don't have

424
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: a case. I eventually get her there and she's in

425
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: the witness box and she is being hammered by the defense,

426
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: just hammered, and she was really just stressed. And I

427
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: can remember thinking. The last thing I remember is thinking,

428
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: pardon me, this is bullshit. The next thing I remember

429
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: is being across the road at a coffee shop across

430
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: the road from the court, and the court staff come

431
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: over and they see me there and Noel, what are

432
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: you doing here? And I remember thinking, I'm having a

433
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: coffee and they said, Noell, the magistrate's looking for he

434
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: prosecution defense. There's witnesses like what are you doing here?

435
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: And the magistrate was filthy because I couldn't be found.

436
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking to myself, what am I doing here.

437
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: I'm in the middle of a court case. I'm the

438
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: informant and I'm in I can la la land in

439
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: a coffee shop. Yeah, And I said, I'll come straight

440
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: over gee. And I remember the prosecutor she was from

441
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: the opp and she went not this to me, and

442
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: she said, don't you ever do that to me again,

443
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: because I'd humiliated her and she'd obviously been serrated. Oh yeah.

444
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: And I went home that night and I remember thinking

445
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: to myself, why was I in the coffee shop. I

446
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: just couldn't work out anyway, what had happened was I

447
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: had I found out later i'd lost twenty minutes. I

448
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: had this, well, not blacked out as such, but I'd

449
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: had an amnesia event where I just you know, I mean,

450
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: I was functioning, I was walking across the road and

451
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: all that, but my mind had just said, nah, enough.

452
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: So that's when I thought, I think, maybe i'd better

453
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: start doing something. There's something not right. And I held

454
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: on for four months, think and I can do this,

455
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: but nah. Anyway, I went to the doctor. And I

456
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: remember leaving work the Friday night and I went to

457
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: the doctor the Monday morning. I never went back. That

458
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: was because I realized, I mean, it took me a

459
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: long time to accept, because the doctor said to me,

460
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: I've got a feeling you might have PTSD, and I

461
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: actually said to him, what's that. I had no idea,

462
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: But as he started to explain it, I remember I

463
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: was thinking himself, Yep, I've felt that, Yep, I've done that, yep, yep.

464
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: And it probably took me and I never went back

465
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: because I was The psychologist said to me, Narel, if

466
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: you go back, the next step is hospital because of

467
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: that amnesia event I had, And so I really had

468
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: to trust the professionals, and I did everything they said

469
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: to try and get back to work. After a while,

470
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: I started to think because I missed it. Oh my god,

471
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: I still do. But yeah, but I thought, why would

472
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: I go back. I never want to go to a

473
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: psych hospital. That just frightened the life out of me.

474
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: That was the wake up call I needed. I went

475
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: on work cover, and I was so ashamed of the

476
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: fact that I possibly because I wouldn't accept it, that

477
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: I possibly had post traumatic stress disorder like a mental illness.

478
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: I wasn't in a tyranny one that I made up

479
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: all these excuses and I kept it from everyone, probably

480
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: by my husband. He looking back, he said, there were

481
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: things that weren't making sense because what I was doing

482
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: was I was having terrible migraines. But also I had

483
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: this my legs would shake in better of a night

484
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: to the point where it will wake him up, like

485
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: they'd shake, you know, really obvious. And I remember I

486
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: couldn't work out, but my whole body was shaking, and

487
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what's going on? And I remember I used

488
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: to say, oh, you're snoring, so I'd go into the

489
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: sphere room. Yeah. So when I look back, there were

490
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: all these signs, but I just never put two and

491
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: two together. But my anger gary like that anger. And

492
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: when I look back, everything the doctor said was right.

493
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: You know, it was almost like I felt my head

494
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: was going to burst with anger. Like in the end,

495
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, I was banging the phone down at work

496
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: and I was just completely losing control. And I had

497
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: every time a job would come in. This is right

498
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: at the end, just before I went to see the doctor.

499
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: Every time a job would come into work. I got

500
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 2: to the point where I was avoiding taking the calls

501
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: because I just thought I can't do this anymore. I'd

502
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: get terrible Diaryea, like I spent half the day in

503
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: the toilet. Again. You can make all the excuses in

504
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: the world, but I looking back, I did ignore the signs.

505
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a couple of things. And I've seen

506
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people I know in the police go

507
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: off with stress and in different ways, different forms what

508
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: you've described there. That type of thing I've had guests

509
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: on here that I've described very similar type of things.

510
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: I think we've policing. You're there to serve the public.

511
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: You're there to help people. You're a protector, protect and

512
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: serve that type of thing. I think it's in the

513
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: police nature that you don't put your hand up ever

514
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: and say, hey, I need a hand here or I'm

515
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: not coping. So you're going to overcome that barrier. And

516
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: then it's the pride aspect of it. You don't want

517
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: to admit that the job's broken you. And sometimes you

518
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: just need to take a step back. I've hit the

519
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: wall sometimes. Yeah, I had a quick bounce back and

520
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: I'd go, okay, all right, I was probably out of

521
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: thoughts yesterday, but I'm ready for it now. I had

522
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: Craig Simple, a good, hard working detective on the podcast,

523
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: and he talked about post traumatic stress and he had

524
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: a career. He was always in the thick of things,

525
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: different things, and eventually it caught up with him, and

526
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: not the same way that you talk about, but not

527
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: dissimilar in that, Yeah, all of a sudden, it's just

528
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: dawned on me, Hey I'm not ready for this. You'd

529
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: put your hand up and actually go see the doctor

530
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: and they explain what's going on. He made the point,

531
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot to be said for this.

532
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: He said the people he was seeing were a doctor,

533
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: a psychologist, or whatever were saying. You know, the funny

534
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: thing here is you could have addressed this ten years

535
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: ago if you just acknowledged that back then, and you

536
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: would have been able to return to work quite easily.

537
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: But you let a build up till it it literally

538
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: broke you and you fell off the cliff, and now

539
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: the damage has been done and you can't go back there.

540
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: So maybe that's and it's not just policing, like there's

541
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: a lot of careers. I think there's a lot of

542
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: careers and just society in itself. Everyone seems to be

543
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: stressed these days for one reason or another. But maybe

544
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: we've just got to factor that into policing more. And

545
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: you have these recharges, like you know, we're working maybe

546
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: a week off a year to go somewhere just to

547
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: literally physically and mentally recharge and recalibrate, because I know

548
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: what you described as a hard working detective. And then

549
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: just when you've got nothing left, you've got to go

550
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: to court. Like you just said, and I know those

551
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: times I might have been on call all night, I've

552
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: been up, i haven't slept for twenty four hours, and

553
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: then okay, I've got to put a fresh suit on,

554
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: I've got to walk in the court, and I've got

555
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: to have my mind as sharp as possible. And it does,

556
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, it does where you're down. But I think

557
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: it's interesting hearing people like yourself talk about it because

558
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: obviously you're not shirking your responsibilities. You got in and

559
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 1: have a go your whole career, and you can put

560
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: your hand up and I think you touched on that too,

561
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: that it's good to talk about these type of things.

562
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: You know. I think you're talking about having maybe a

563
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: week off or whatever. How do we manage mental illness

564
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: within the police, because there's so much of it. But

565
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: I think what may have helped me would have been

566
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: to have a sit twenty four to seven at every

567
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: major like head office, let's say, you know, in broad

568
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: Meadows in I don't know, Waverley.

569
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: But just cost effective too when you look at the payouts,

570
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: yeah yeah.

571
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: And just to have somebody that you can ring and say, Geep,

572
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 2: I actually dug up a body yesterday and I'm actually

573
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: not managing too well. But to have them there and

574
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: then rather than ring and that you know, we'll see

575
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks. I just think we should

576
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: have psychologists or psychiatrists and probably a psychologist at every

577
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: twenty four hour station, or at least a couple so

578
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: that there is an immediate an immediate response because and

579
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: also maybe mandatory had once a month. I don't know, have.

580
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: I like the idea what you're saying, having someone there, like, yeah,

581
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: there's times where you've seen something. Some of the situations

582
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: you've described, of course it would help if you talked

583
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: about them, horrendous things that you've seen and done. We

584
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: had mandatory site testing in the I think in homicide.

585
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: I was in there for twenty years. I think I

586
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: avoided it for about fifteen years, and it was mandatory.

587
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: And then someone said, have you been. I said, I've

588
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: never been to other than police shootings where a site

589
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: comes out to you at the scene, but I'd never been,

590
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: and there was a sort of attitude about it. We've

591
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: got to give. We're busy. I have not got time

592
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: to go talk to this psychologist for an hour. I've

593
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: got to prepare this brief I'm on this investigation, so

594
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: it was almost like amongst ourselves we're just sort of

595
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: laughing about it, whereas probably if we were more open

596
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: and more honest, we go, well, it's probably not a

597
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: bad idea because I think if you have someone to

598
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: talk to it about it, it potentially could help. And

599
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: I took a lot away from what Craig Semple said

600
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: because he's a tough guy, like it just unbreakable and

601
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: he broke, but he acknowledged that if I just did

602
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: a bit of work on myself back then I could

603
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: have circumvented the letting it build up to the way

604
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: it did.

605
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 2: You know, it took me, I'd have to say, eighteen

606
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: months before I actually accepted that I was sick. I

607
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: fought it and fought it and thinking, I could you know,

608
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: if I do everything that the professionals say, I'll be

609
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: able to get back to work and all this sort

610
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: of stuff. But the game changer for me was going

611
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: to the Austin hospital. They had an outpatient a PTSD clinic,

612
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: and that took me a while to get into. Isn't

613
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: that sad because there were so many affected police, But

614
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: that was a game changer. For me because there were

615
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: you know, there was no hiding there. You know, you

616
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 2: couldn't hide behind any sort of facade, which we do.

617
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was a game changer for me. And

618
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 2: just one other thing. I just think it's important to

619
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 2: keep an open mind. I remember work cover. I don't

620
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 2: have a lot of good things to say about work

621
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: cover in a lot of ways. But in another way,

622
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: they realized that I wasn't able to go back to it.

623
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 2: They sent me to twelve twelve psychologists or psychiatrists. I

624
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 2: think what they were doing was getting somebody to say,

625
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: she can go back to work on a temporary you know,

626
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: like two days a week whatever. And you know what,

627
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: every single one of her said, she'll never work again.

628
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: But I forgot my trainer. Thought I was going to

629
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: do what was our heading to Gary. See what happens.

630
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm not hoping you're not having one of those last moments.

631
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: I have a lot to do.

632
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: You realize we're on my catch killers. It's a podcast.

633
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: We're going light.

634
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, But anyway, I'm just saying, you know, it took

635
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: me eighteen months to really realize how sick I was. Oh,

636
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: that's right to keep an open mind and so I

637
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: went work, Cuver sent me to this. They said, I

638
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 2: will send you to a vocational guidance counselor.

639
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: We did that at school.

640
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: Hello, and I'm thinking, oh, for facks sake, you know,

641
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: what are they going to do? So but anyway, I thought, no,

642
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: the professionals know, so I'll do what they say. So

643
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: it went, and again it's a game changer because what

644
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: we did was we sat at a desk and she said,

645
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: tell me the things you really like, tell me the

646
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: things you think you're good at. What are your skills?

647
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: And you know what, I couldn't think of a skill

648
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: like you know, when you're just so sick and you've

649
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: done something for so long, you don't realize the skills

650
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: you have because they're just taken for granted, or we

651
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: taken for granted right very much.

652
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: So like my career ended literally overnight, and I'm thinking,

653
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: what do I do? I catch killers? That's what I did.

654
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: That was my job, that was my identity and all that.

655
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: But then I think it's when you look at policing

656
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: as a whole, there are so many skill sets that

657
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 1: you've got, and I think, yeah, we've got to open

658
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: their minds up and I joined police as a vacation.

659
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: That was going to be my career. That was I

660
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: didn't want to just have an experience there. I think

661
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 1: policing should make itself more readily available to let people

662
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: go in and out of policing. Yeah, like, work for

663
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: ten years. I want to see change. I want to

664
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: do something. I might go work in the building industry

665
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: for five years and then ah, shit, that's tough. I'm

666
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: going to come back to the police, but not come

667
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: back to the police starting at the academy. I think

668
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: we could with all benefit from that type of thing.

669
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but you don't realize like I used to think,

670
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: and you'd be the same. I'd think, Okay, so I

671
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: can type up a search warrant, I can do an

672
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: effort David, Yeah, I can do an interview. Well, what

673
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: other world do I need to you know, I just

674
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: couldn't think anyway. What this lady did was we sat

675
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: down with what I liked, what I believe my skills were,

676
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: and then she started to open up my mind about

677
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: other things that I could do, and it just opened

678
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: up a whole new world. You know. I did some

679
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: we worked out that you may have guessed that I

680
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: like talking bullshit.

681
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: That's not right, is it.

682
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: No, it's not bullshit, it's wrong, right, Okay, And I like,

683
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, let's say, taking people under the wing

684
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: and sort of helping them or whatever. Anyway, so we

685
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: worked out maybe I could do lecturing in investative techniques.

686
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: So but this is two years down the track, but

687
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: I did it, and I just opened up a whole

688
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: new world. And you know, I lectured at TAFE with

689
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: investative skills and because I realized I had them, and

690
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 2: I can remember with the kids, i'd say to them

691
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: at the end of every lesson, I'd say, if you know,

692
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 2: I was a teacher, sort of, if you're really good

693
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: and you do what I ask, at the end of

694
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: every lesson, I'll give you a war story. And they

695
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 2: loved it. They loved it. Anyway, that branched out into

696
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: a whole lot of different things. And the only other

697
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to add was when I was sick

698
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: and I was feeling a bit sorry for myself at

699
00:42:54,719 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: home not working. I've always felt that I had the

700
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: right sort of personality, and I certainly have the stories,

701
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: but I didn't I was terrible at public speaking or

702
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 2: just speaking anything. Other than a couple of girlfriends. I'm

703
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: fine with that, but get me in front of a group.

704
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: And this is before n MIT. And that's when I

705
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 2: went to Postmasters and I thought, I want to learn

706
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: some skills about public speaking, to try and get over

707
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: that fear, of that anxiety. And it unleashed the beast

708
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: and here I am.

709
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: And you've gone from this shy withdrawn personally and I

710
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: was never with your Okay, you've also stepped in the

711
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: world of podcasting.

712
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, lovely segue that, Gara.

713
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: This is I'm getting polish, like just a melia. Just

714
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: just move the sorry from one to the other. What's

715
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: the name of your podcast?

716
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: The police will understand. The name of my podcast is

717
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: Noelle Fraser Interview. But be short. The short version is NFI.

718
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to use that because in policing we

719
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: all know NFI means had me no fucking idea. So

720
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: I have a couple of friends say, you can't do that,

721
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: you can't name it that if you just watch me.

722
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: So that's when I worked out, what could I have

723
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: Norell Noreell Fraser Interviews. So yeah, NFI. But my podcast

724
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: is really about exploring the human side and impact of crime.

725
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 2: And there will be no surprise to you and your

726
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: listeners that the impact of crime is what I feel

727
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: so strongly about. And I give people a voice that

728
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: normally wouldn't have a voice. And that's what I really like,

729
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: victims of horrendous crimes that they've never gone to the

730
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 2: police about, or they just want to tell their story.

731
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, so, as you said the other day, isn't

732
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: that funny too? Former detectives now podcasters.

733
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: Well, it's different, a different set of skill, but it

734
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: still is sitting listening and what podcasting has taught me

735
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: or to carry on from what you have to do

736
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: when you're interviewing suspects, you've got to listen to what

737
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: they're saying. It's a different form of communication. But yeah,

738
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I see anything that we're doing. When

739
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: two cops are sitting down talking on the podcast, I

740
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: think it gives a human side to what policing is.

741
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: So you're not just looking at that's a cranky detective,

742
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: or there's that uniform person or whatever. So I think

743
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 1: there's benefits there. People for whatever reason, find crime fascinating. Yeah,

744
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: I quite enjoy it. And if people ask me. What

745
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: I'm doing now, I'm doing podcasting or writing or whatever.

746
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: What I'm most proud about is letting people like yourself

747
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: tell their story on this Like I'm allowing people to

748
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: share their stories. And yeah, it's not just the good guys.

749
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: We have the bad guys. We've had all sorts of

750
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: eye catch killers. So yeah, good luck with it because

751
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: it is fun and you learn as you how along.

752
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: You embarrass yourself quite a few times, and I'm sure

753
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: I'll embarrass myself down the track, but I try to

754
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: always be professional. That was my radio voice, which I.

755
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: Haven't really got interessed.

756
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind

757
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: the headlines of a gang war or shooting? Then you

758
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: need to listen to crim City. Join crime reporters Mark

759
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details of

760
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that

761
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City

762
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: is out now. Listen early and ad free on crime

763
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: x plus on Apple podcast Today. Hey, I want to

764
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: ask I want to ask this question women in policing,

765
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: And I say this, there's been a lot of progress

766
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: in policing. I talk New South Wales, but I know

767
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: the culture of other police organizations. By nature, it's a blokey,

768
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: bloky environment. And I sometimes hear girls say I wouldn't

769
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: mind joining the police, But what's it like being a policewoman.

770
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: Tell us your thoughts on women in policing, your experience.

771
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: It's pretty tough. It is a man's world, absolutely, But

772
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: also I will always go back to I think the

773
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: best combination on a div van is a policeman and

774
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: a policewoman. I feel like whether this is a politically

775
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 2: correct or incorrect, I don't know, but I think generally

776
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 2: the man is stronger physically and I think as a

777
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: female we have emotional strength, emotional intelligence, and I'm not

778
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 2: saying men don't, but I think combined it's a pretty

779
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: damn good team.

780
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: Let me say, I agree with you and nerellso if

781
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: you get in the trouble, we're both going down for this.

782
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: But I think what you said is it's sensible. That's sensible,

783
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: and I always like to have that combination of female

784
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: on the strikeforce I was working on because they could

785
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: do stuff that the men couldn't.

786
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, exactly a year. It's tough, but yeah,

787
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: you know, I've been I've been in some horrendous situations.

788
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: I think you've got to accept that there's good and

789
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: there's bad. Policing isn't all great and fun, you know. Boy,

790
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: we haven't touched on that, but due there's some funny

791
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: stuff goes on, isn't there. But but I think you know,

792
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: I've been sexually assaulted by a colleague. I've had a

793
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: photo taken up my skirt where it actually showed my

794
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: the cotton gusset in my pantyhose like that's you know,

795
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: and it was put up on the board. You know,

796
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: this is phrases, you know, I don't know, hundies or whatever.

797
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: One of the worst things I ever experienced was it

798
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: was a night shift and I was brand new and

799
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: we were all sitting around having our dinner like this

800
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: is at three o'clock in the morning or something. Everyone

801
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: gets called in and we have our dinner, and now

802
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: come the porno movies like, oh my god, and I.

803
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: Can't I would imagine you'd be the any female police officer, probably.

804
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, but they're there. You know, they're terrible things.

805
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: Well, we had a good chat about this the other

806
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: day when we were talking and you said, yeah, you

807
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: could make a complain about that, but you loved your

808
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: career and yeah, you might then be ostracized or bullied

809
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: and all that. And we're talking a generation back, like

810
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: it's changed now. I think there's practices and procedures in

811
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: there now. But what you were saying, I've heard so

812
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 1: many policewomen that I respect say the same thing. They've

813
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: made it through and they had to compromise a little

814
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: bit and not make an issue. Yeah, they're strength in that.

815
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: Like it gets to the point where you've shown them

816
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: to be the idiots. But you also made the point

817
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: and I probably should let you make the point because

818
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: you wanted to emphasize this when I said, is it

819
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: all right if we talk about this that for all

820
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: the bad, there's what you said, like, I don't want

821
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: everyone to think it's just misogynistic with the police. There's

822
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: some really good people there.

823
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: Oh, and the good that you do this is what

824
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: I mean. You've got to weigh it up. You know,

825
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: in any career, like you know, you're hear of sexual

826
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 2: harassment in every workplace known to man. The police are

827
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 2: no different. And you know I've been harassed in other

828
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 2: careers as well, like as a secretary. But it's it's

829
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: something that it is getting better and it need to

830
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: mind you. But and I do agree with you, Gary

831
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: that if I would have said something, I know my

832
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: career would have been over. I would have been it

833
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: would have completely, it would have finished. And I didn't

834
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: want it to finish because I just thought there was

835
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: so many good things that I could do, and like,

836
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 2: who's going to hold a rape victim's hand and take

837
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: a statement from of the time not there. I'm not

838
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 2: saying I'm the only one that did it, but you

839
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: know that's.

840
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: What I mean, Like, you valued your career and you

841
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: wanted to progress in the in the career and.

842
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 2: The fulfillment that you get from helping people. Yeah, there's

843
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: some dickheads, you know, there's a few dickheads, but in

844
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: general are the policemen and we're talking about policemen. The

845
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 2: policemen I worked with were just magnificent men, you know,

846
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: And there's always a couple of rotten apples. Police are

847
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: no different.

848
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: Well, I was saying it to you when we're chatting,

849
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 1: and I've said that here before. I think in policing,

850
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: you get exposed to the best people you'll ever meet,

851
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: inspirational people, and you get also exposed to some of

852
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: the most And i'm talking to police, I'm not talking

853
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: the croxy you get. Some people are very very uninspiring.

854
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: But I want that message to get across when I

855
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: speak to a successful police woman like yourself, that women

856
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: can have a career in policing, and yes they might

857
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: be confronted with things, but it's getting better. And I saw,

858
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: which I was quite pleased, the men in the police

859
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: were self regulating the other dickhead men that were harassing

860
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: women and pulling them aside and saying that's not on.

861
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: And so I think the culture is changing, even though

862
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: it is by the nature of policing it's a blokey

863
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: environment and that probably always will be, but this is

864
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: getting a bit better.

865
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: But also Gary, if you go into policing and not

866
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: accepting that it's a blokey environment, you can be a

867
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: bit naive. You're right, you're right, And I think to myself,

868
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: you've got to be pretty tough in some ways and

869
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: be strong. And I would never have classed myself as strong,

870
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 2: but maybe I am. Because it was just like, you

871
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: know what, that's not going to beat me up.

872
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's strength in different times, the different

873
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 1: types of strength. We know the big bloke at six

874
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: foot six that you send him in anywhere you can

875
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: go through the door. But I also seen some women

876
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: that I call the toughest cops because they're just mentally

877
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: tough and I'm buckling under the pressure and they're standing there.

878
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: So strength comes in comes in many ways. Just sort

879
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: of wrapping it up, would you recommend policing as a

880
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: creer for people like you've been through it? God, Yes,

881
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 1: I love it when ex.

882
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: Cops say that, yeah, because it's given me. I don't

883
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: know where to start, absolutely, but what I would say

884
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: is that I think just make sure that you check

885
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 2: in with a professional, with a psychologist, I don't know,

886
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: maybe once a month, but take care of your mental health,

887
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 2: because isn't it funny We take care of our physical health.

888
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 2: You know, you've got to be fit and you know,

889
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 2: all the right food groups and all that sort of stuff,

890
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: But when it comes to mental health, there's very few

891
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: of us that do anything about.

892
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: Put time into to keep that.

893
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 2: So I would just say just to you know, make

894
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: sure you attend to your mental health, well you do

895
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 2: your physical health, and you know, it's a very very rewarding, fulfilling,

896
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 2: exciting career.

897
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 1: So and I like that, and I like the fact

898
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: you look back with fond memories. Despite what you've seen

899
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 1: and gone through, you're looking back and fond memories. And

900
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: it saddens me that all police, and I think across

901
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: the nation that's not just New South Wales or Victoria,

902
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: are struggling to get people in policing. And if you

903
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: just understood the world that you can see in there,

904
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: it will open your eyes up and you will do

905
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: things that you never thought you could do. And it's

906
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: sad that that messaging isn't getting out the type of

907
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: career that policing can be. If you embrace it, you

908
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: can make a difference and you can get rewarded in

909
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: ways that you never never expected to be rewarded. And

910
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: this is two of us sitting here. I got run

911
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: out of the cops and you went off from the

912
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: cops because the damage policing had done. And we're still

913
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: sitting here saying we loved every moment of it. So

914
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: you're I thank you. At the start of the podcast,

915
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: I told you. I wasn't sure. I thank you at

916
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: the end of the podcast for your service, but it

917
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: comes across in spades how much passion you had for

918
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: your job, enjoyment, respect, empathy, all the important stuff and

919
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 1: you're still standing here and having laugh So well done.

920
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: Congratulations, Thanks for having me Gary, It's been a pleasure.

921
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: Enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah, thank you well morell is certainly

922
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: a bubbly, bubbly personality, and I think she's got a

923
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: great personality for policing, and it just came across so

924
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: abundantly clear. Despite the heavy jobs that she was working

925
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: on them, the things she had to face or do,

926
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: she still cared and had empathy for the victims. And

927
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: she's a lot of fun. I know policing took its

928
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: toll on her, but the fact that she still looks

929
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: back with fond memories, I think she was a real

930
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 1: asset to policing and full credit to her