Speaker 1: Appoche production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am
Speaker 1: Neil the muscle comments and in.
Speaker 2: This episode I speak with Claudette Douglas about the dark
Speaker 2: side of the Defense Force.
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell the difference between the north and the
Speaker 3: south on the compass. Yeah, you went in with the
Speaker 3: target coming back. They're full of blood, like they're huge,
Speaker 3: being listed on the back of their heels and then
Speaker 3: that whole layer comes off. My pack never weighed twenty kilos.
Speaker 3: You'd find a brick in it. And I always taught
Speaker 3: how to kill a person with one year and look
Speaker 3: at me. Okay to the squash Bug.
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on. It's going to be a
Speaker 1: very exciting episode.
Speaker 2: I reckon because you intrigued me when I spoke to
Speaker 2: you up in the Gold Coast. So before we get
Speaker 2: into all the nitty gritty, okay, tell me about yourself
Speaker 2: growing up, family, school, and then why you wanted to
Speaker 2: join the army.
Speaker 3: I think I had rocks in my head. So I
Speaker 3: grew up in a little country town called Koba, rural
Speaker 3: New South Wales. No it's not Hobart, it's Cobae, all right.
Speaker 3: Do you know where Dubbo is okay. Yeah, three hours
Speaker 3: west of Dubbo, in the middle of b F nowhere.
Speaker 3: Literally there's nothing. We've got stop lights and give way signs.
Speaker 3: There's no roundabout. Trucks down. Q sbe humps and slow
Speaker 3: the trucks down. I grew up out there, that's I
Speaker 3: was born Dubbo and yeah, I was raised in Coba,
Speaker 3: went to the primary school, went to the high school,
Speaker 3: did almost schooling out there. My whole family is still
Speaker 3: out there, except for my one of my sisters, middle one,
Speaker 3: she lives in She escaped and of all things, joined
Speaker 3: the Defense Force. Married with someone from the Defense Force,
Speaker 3: so she lives in Tindle in the territory at the
Speaker 3: Air Force bace.
Speaker 1: Did your family have anything to do it, like with
Speaker 1: the army? Is that why you wanted to Yeah?
Speaker 3: I was a cadet, a school cadet and an Army
Speaker 3: cadet for several years, and mum and dad ran the
Speaker 3: cadet unit.
Speaker 1: Ah, that's why.
Speaker 3: Yeah, say the puzzles all coming lass. Okay, So yeah,
Speaker 3: I think I was about fourteen fifteen, and yeah, I
Speaker 3: decided to to join the Army cadet unit. So life
Speaker 3: was great out there. I'll go at home now and
Speaker 3: it's nothing. It's nothing like it was when I grew up.
Speaker 3: So I met my husband out there, my current husband.
Speaker 3: So this is number two. He's a keeper. This one.
Speaker 1: I like this one.
Speaker 3: I'm a mum of two kids. Eldest is twenty five
Speaker 3: with my little grandson and another one on the way.
Speaker 3: Find out today where there's one or two hoping there's
Speaker 3: only one bacon?
Speaker 1: Well what what?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: What is it with the that's like, what what did
Speaker 1: you have to do for the cadets?
Speaker 3: Is it just? See back then the cadets, it was fun.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of fun. You got to ride
Speaker 3: in the back of the unimogus, the army trucks. You
Speaker 3: got to play around in the tanks, you got to
Speaker 3: go bush, you got to play with the weapons, abs,
Speaker 3: sail all but paintball, all that sort of stuff. So
Speaker 3: it was a lot of fun. And is a lead
Speaker 3: up to go up to this it is it teaches
Speaker 3: you how to do everything you do. Navigation, you know,
Speaker 3: survival in the bush, all that sort of stuff. And
Speaker 3: growing up out on the farm. I used to go
Speaker 3: out to my grandparents farm as a kid every chance
Speaker 3: I got, and it's something I locked in planning to dirt,
Speaker 3: getting dirty. But yeah, for that, it just it intrigued me,
Speaker 3: I suppose, and all I wanted to do was join
Speaker 3: the army. Wow, yeah, I don't know. Looking back now,
Speaker 3: I think I rocks in my head.
Speaker 1: But so when was it that? When was it that
Speaker 1: you actually joined?
Speaker 2: And you know because with the cadets, So tell me,
Speaker 2: because I I don't know much about the army.
Speaker 1: Cadets is a lead up to go to the it is.
Speaker 3: Cadets is a lead up to go into any form
Speaker 3: of defense force. It gives you the basic skills to
Speaker 3: go in. So when it comes down to doing navigation,
Speaker 3: using radios, surviving in the bush, all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 3: even right down to being able to strip an assembol
Speaker 3: a weapon. It teaches you absolutely everything. And the Cadet
Speaker 3: unit's still running at home. Mum and Dad are still
Speaker 3: running it. They've been running it for thirty years. So
Speaker 3: it's something that helps kids in a way. A lot
Speaker 3: of kids struggle, it does, and there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of kids that have joined that have been To be honest,
Speaker 3: it's been rotten. The lassoles, you know, the way they
Speaker 3: treat their parents, to treat the community, treat themselves and
Speaker 3: it's a way of getting back on the straight and arrow.
Speaker 3: And Mum and Dad have done a wonderful job in
Speaker 3: doing that over the years, and so many kids that
Speaker 3: work it. It's even when I was in Yeah, they've
Speaker 3: gone on to join the defense force, whether it be Navy,
Speaker 3: Air Force.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what age group do you have to be to
Speaker 1: join the army? Is it?
Speaker 3: So you've got to be twelve twelve?
Speaker 1: Well, cadets or cadets.
Speaker 3: Is twelve you go up right up until you finish
Speaker 3: school and then army you have to be sixteen nine months.
Speaker 3: It's like getting your license really, So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of kids that will literally get their license and join
Speaker 3: the Defense Force all on the same day.
Speaker 1: So are you assessed that the cadets to see if
Speaker 1: you can go into the army? Is that how?
Speaker 3: No? No, No, there's no cycle evaluation or anything that
Speaker 3: all comes when you join the Defense Force. So I
Speaker 3: mean a cycle evaluation. When you get to the Defense Force,
Speaker 3: they try and play with your mind. It is. It's
Speaker 3: really trying to psych you out adjoining in a way,
Speaker 3: because I'll ask you so many ways. If you were
Speaker 3: standing on the edge of the question they gave me.
Speaker 3: If you're standing on the edge of a cliff, even
Speaker 3: one jump, well everyone's going to want to jump. They
Speaker 3: want to see if they can fly like but nobody
Speaker 3: wants to hit the bottom and not recover from it.
Speaker 3: But it's yeah, it's the question that they ask, and
Speaker 3: they ask it in so many different ways.
Speaker 1: But do they say that to see if you're suicider?
Speaker 3: Yea it is. It's just see if you're straight in
Speaker 3: the head. And in this day and age, I don't
Speaker 3: know how anyone passes. Wow, I really don't. Where I
Speaker 3: work now, I see so many kids coming into my
Speaker 3: store and I look at them and go dead. Said,
Speaker 3: if you are my last line of defense against anything
Speaker 3: coming into this country, I need to re enlist because
Speaker 3: this straight out of kindergarten.
Speaker 1: So you think it's a lot easier now to get
Speaker 1: into the army than.
Speaker 3: It's got to be. There's so many kids that are
Speaker 3: coming in and they look at you and they go yes, ma'am, no, ma'am,
Speaker 3: and oh my god, you you still don't They need
Speaker 3: to go home. And then you get others that come
Speaker 3: through and you can tell that they're born to do it.
Speaker 3: That's what they're born to do.
Speaker 2: We've got your your when you were ready to go
Speaker 2: on the army after cadets and what what what you
Speaker 2: have to do and go through to get in there
Speaker 2: to be picked?
Speaker 3: Oh okay, So I think mine's a little different to
Speaker 3: a lot of others. I was. I was so special. No, see,
Speaker 3: I actually went in with a target on my back. Well,
Speaker 3: because I was a cadet that you went in with
Speaker 3: knowing that you had any background knowledge on the defense force,
Speaker 3: and you sort of had that upper hand against those
Speaker 3: going in green that couldn't tell the difference between the
Speaker 3: north and the south on a compass. Yeah, you went
Speaker 3: in with a target on your back. You were graded
Speaker 3: so much harder. They basically rowed you to try and
Speaker 3: make you fail. And because Dad was a commanding officer
Speaker 3: of the cadet unit at home, and my commanding officer
Speaker 3: of my unit, best mates and I got well, it
Speaker 3: got me. It was easier to get in in a
Speaker 3: way because I didn't have to go to Kopuoka. I
Speaker 3: didn't have to go to Puckepania, so I didn't have
Speaker 3: to do all of those extra boot camps and all
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff. I literally did a two week
Speaker 3: boot camp at Ingleburn at Bartia Barracks. It's not it's
Speaker 3: not there anymore. It's been bulldoze because of the asbestos.
Speaker 1: That's where you have to do it all. So how
Speaker 1: was it? How was that? So? What's the training for?
Speaker 1: What's the two week training?
Speaker 3: It's intense. I think there was probably about eight females
Speaker 3: that went through at the time. I think three made
Speaker 3: it through. There was only two in my unit and
Speaker 3: one she quit not long after.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Oh, you'd be walking around and you'd have blisters literally
Speaker 3: the size of an avocado seat on your heels, both heels,
Speaker 3: but you still had to keep going.
Speaker 1: Well, I know, sound like a stupid question, but why
Speaker 1: do they make you do that? Is it? Is it?
Speaker 2: I get when you go overseas and you get you
Speaker 2: have to go places you're going to fucking be walking around?
Speaker 1: What is it?
Speaker 3: It's just your endurance. It's to see whether you've got
Speaker 3: what it takes.
Speaker 1: To push through, to see if you're going to be
Speaker 1: a failure, see if you've got a.
Speaker 3: Ticker or not. Basically, look, there'd be some that they
Speaker 3: get through and they get through easy. And look, I
Speaker 3: suppose the cadets taught me the simple little things don't
Speaker 3: work a power of football socks because of the fabric
Speaker 3: they're made out of, the friction makes your feet get
Speaker 3: hot and it causes blood blisters. Now, these blisters these
Speaker 3: people were getting, they're not just your standard. You know,
Speaker 3: it's hot, I've got a blister. They were full of blood.
Speaker 3: Like there were huge, big blisters on the back of
Speaker 3: their heels. And then that whole layer comes off. They're
Speaker 3: strapped up, their foot strapped. It wasn't it wasn't easy.
Speaker 1: Got the males, How are they like with you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? That was hard. They didn't like women.
Speaker 1: So what what what you were talking to?
Speaker 3: What we're talking ninety three?
Speaker 1: So, yeah, we are talking way back.
Speaker 3: When it was it was it was a man's army
Speaker 3: women that it was just almost not not a thing
Speaker 3: for women to be in the army was almost ran upon.
Speaker 3: We were there to be a cook, a nurse, anything
Speaker 3: but be part of an infantry unit, which is what
Speaker 3: my unit was.
Speaker 2: So back then it it would have been kind of
Speaker 2: a new thing for women to come in.
Speaker 1: To be in the army.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and we were looked at as a protected species.
Speaker 3: You can't do that because she's a female. She can't
Speaker 3: go there because she's female. So in a way, I
Speaker 3: was lucky when I went away. I had a couple
Speaker 3: of fellows from home, one still with us, the other
Speaker 3: one not now. He actually that as tall as you.
Speaker 3: He helped me a lot. He was like a big brother.
Speaker 3: They helped me be able to do things that I
Speaker 3: probably shouldn't have been allowed to do. As long as
Speaker 3: I've got my paperwork done. At six o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 3: the truck would pull up to the front door. All
Speaker 3: my gear would be on the back and they right,
Speaker 3: let's go, we'll go under the range. But that was
Speaker 3: then frowned upon too. It was like I was given
Speaker 3: a free pass because I knew people there, and my
Speaker 3: co sort of gave me a free pass, which then
Speaker 3: put a target on my back. Just ride a little
Speaker 3: bit harder, make a break.
Speaker 1: Were you welcomed by the mails at back then?
Speaker 3: Not really. No woman was, and that's why a lot
Speaker 3: of the women actually they didn't even finish two weeks.
Speaker 3: Two weeks of training, and it was intense training. It's
Speaker 3: like you're six weeks at Capuk or Pucketpanil all jammed
Speaker 3: into one. But yeah, it was it was hard, definitely hard.
Speaker 2: Who was the most of the abuses? Was it that
Speaker 2: the guys who were training with you or was it
Speaker 2: the actual people who were training you?
Speaker 3: A bit of both. It was a mixture. It was
Speaker 3: a mixture of both. And look, as you can tell,
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly what you call a tall person. So
Speaker 3: I was always put right at the front, so I
Speaker 3: had to set the pace. We do a fifteen clicker,
Speaker 3: so fifteen k Marge. It was full pack you had,
Speaker 3: So you had your twenty kilos on your back. You
Speaker 3: had your which was fully loaded, your water bottles, it
Speaker 3: was loaded like it was ready to go to combat
Speaker 3: with the weight. And look if your pack if you
Speaker 3: put everything in there, because I was only so little.
Speaker 3: Look my pack never weighed twenty kilos. You'd find a
Speaker 3: brick in there. They had to make it twenty kilos
Speaker 3: that you carried. They would weigh it and they put
Speaker 3: it on the scales and made sure it was twenty
Speaker 3: kilos before you went and ditch fifteen k's. And then
Speaker 3: you've got your hot uniform. That uniform didn't breathe back then.
Speaker 3: It's not like it is now. Your boots and your weapon,
Speaker 3: and it's not the light little styers that they carry now,
Speaker 3: which weigh nothing. Your shoes weigh more than what they do.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it was the old seven point six TOSLR. It
Speaker 3: was the old long rifle that you see on you
Speaker 3: know that we were soldiers' movies. Yeah, that's what we
Speaker 3: used to have. So having to strip and assemble one
Speaker 3: of them and carried it everywhere you went, it was hard.
Speaker 3: It was heavy, and only being a little pocket rocket,
Speaker 3: it certainly didn't flof easy. And they weren't allowed to
Speaker 3: carry it for you.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: I got there at one stage, doing fifteen k's. A
Speaker 3: couple of boys to come on, I'll take your weapon,
Speaker 3: and I said, I had to fall back. When you've
Speaker 3: got blokes like your your height six foot plus and
Speaker 3: they've got a stride, I've got to take three to
Speaker 3: four steps to catch up to them, to keep their
Speaker 3: pace for fifteen k's. I fell back and I ended
Speaker 3: up almost middle towards the end of the pack. And yeah,
Speaker 3: some of them just said, look, let me take you
Speaker 3: take your weapon, let me take you backpack, just so
Speaker 3: you can catch up, get your breath. And then that
Speaker 3: was frowned upon, and then they're getting screamed up because
Speaker 3: they're not meant to. And then I'm getting screamed at
Speaker 3: because I'm not meant to hand my gear right, I'm
Speaker 3: meant to take it. Well, when you're out in the
Speaker 3: field and you're going to wall, you can't go on
Speaker 3: hand and you're packing your weapon to somebody else. But
Speaker 3: it was look, take the screaming at for doing that,
Speaker 3: or be screamed up by the entire battalion because I'm
Speaker 3: taking one step and they're having to shorten theirs by
Speaker 3: a quarter literally just to be able to do I
Speaker 3: had a couple I had a couple of nights there
Speaker 3: where I almost almost quit. I rang mom and dad
Speaker 3: and said, I can't. I just can't do this. And
Speaker 3: I remember Dad saying, and my dad, let's just say this.
Speaker 3: My dad is not the softest, hardest person in the world.
Speaker 3: He's yeah, he's a hard, hard shell. Grandkids has made
Speaker 3: him a little volet crumble. But he said, mate, you
Speaker 3: got to stick it out.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It was hard because I never had to to ask
Speaker 3: my dad for things, and it was hard to ask
Speaker 3: my dad for stuff like that. And I tried to
Speaker 3: talk to my CEO and he said, you need to
Speaker 3: talk daddy. Said, I can't step in here. He said,
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you need to stay, and I
Speaker 3: rang Mum and she said, I can't tell you what
Speaker 3: to do. Only you can do this. She said, but
Speaker 3: you need to look back on it and say, did
Speaker 3: I give it everything I had? She said, as a woman,
Speaker 3: you need to prove that you can be there. She said,
Speaker 3: it was hard enough getting you in. I mean I
Speaker 3: had to still pass all the tests and all the
Speaker 3: side tests to see I couldn't pass that for me.
Speaker 3: But he was the one that gave me the two
Speaker 3: week intense camp as opposed to go on to Puckponylan
Speaker 3: and that.
Speaker 1: You didn't test anybody to talk to in case they thought.
Speaker 3: You were there was the two fellows that from Coba
Speaker 3: that I used to travel down with, but talking to them,
Speaker 3: they were telling me the same thing, and I think
Speaker 3: I just wanted somebody to say, no, it's okay for
Speaker 3: you to quit. That's what I think I was hoping
Speaker 3: for looking back now, And it wasn't until you asked
Speaker 3: me to do this that I actually stopped and thought
Speaker 3: about it through the night and just maybe I should
Speaker 3: have just quit back then. Maybe that's what me having
Speaker 3: those breakdowns was for for someone to validate the fact
Speaker 3: that I should have just pulled the pin and said
Speaker 3: no more. But I didn't, and and I listened to
Speaker 3: my mom and said, yeah, I've I've got to do
Speaker 3: this as a female. It was hard enough as it was,
Speaker 3: and from a little country town back then, for me
Speaker 3: to go in that was a huge thing. And I
Speaker 3: didn't realize that that that was all going to fall
Speaker 3: back on mom and dad, and they still live in
Speaker 3: the town. They've been there their whole life, and I
Speaker 3: didn't want that to go back. And oh, she felt
Speaker 3: she couldn't make it, she couldn't cut it. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'd had that through school, right through school. I was
Speaker 3: so little. I was the only one with my weird name,
Speaker 3: and I couldn't I couldn't bloody fart in town without
Speaker 3: somebody thinking that I've done something else. So, you know,
Speaker 3: it was hard growing up in the town with the
Speaker 3: only name and being so well known, and I just thought, well,
Speaker 3: I've got to stick it out. So I did. I
Speaker 3: don't know how I did.
Speaker 2: What a level of what level of abuse did you
Speaker 2: see in that while you were there? Did you see
Speaker 2: anyund a blind guy.
Speaker 3: Or you no look physic abuse, no mental abuse. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they look when you've got somebody standing literally two foot
Speaker 3: in front of you and their spit is hitting you
Speaker 3: in the face. What you see on the movies, a
Speaker 3: lot of that is so exaggerated, and when they're standing
Speaker 3: there screaming. That doesn't happen on a regular basis, but
Speaker 3: you do get the odd one or two, and they
Speaker 3: do it during your boot camp, and that's purely to
Speaker 3: see if you've got what it takes. If you're going
Speaker 3: to turn around, you're going to smelt somebody and saying,
Speaker 3: you know he's an upper cut because you've just screamed
Speaker 3: in my face. You had no right to. But I
Speaker 3: think growing up with a dad like I had made
Speaker 3: me very resilient to that. I had a pretty hard
Speaker 3: shell when it comes to that sort of stuff. And yeah,
Speaker 3: it was.
Speaker 2: All separated in different like sleeping sleeping.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no fratnization none whatsoever. To the point where
Speaker 3: back then, if I had to go, you know, you
Speaker 3: get have a spider crawling up your face, and I
Speaker 3: couldn't go over and just whack it off. Being a
Speaker 3: male against a female, I'd have to say to them,
Speaker 3: I'm about to touch you and then brush whatever it
Speaker 3: was away or do whatever. You can't just go up.
Speaker 3: That's that's how bad the fraternization rules were. You couldn't
Speaker 3: even yeah, to sit, even to sit across the table
Speaker 3: like I owing for you now that there, unless there
Speaker 3: was other people in the room that wasn't left. It's fraatenization.
Speaker 3: To them, it's fratnization. That's yeah, you look at it
Speaker 3: and laugh now.
Speaker 1: But so you could never be alone with a male
Speaker 1: or female because I think it was going on, it'd
Speaker 1: have to be someone else in that absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was no male female one on one, and
Speaker 3: which was hard because I had two people there, one
Speaker 3: that were pretty much grown up with another one that
Speaker 3: I'd known for several years, and you know, we just
Speaker 3: travel to camp on the bus, travel home from camp.
Speaker 3: That were the ones that packed my bag after my eighteenth,
Speaker 3: put everything on the bus, cleared out my whole rack
Speaker 3: and everything to make sure there was nothing left behind,
Speaker 3: went and picked me up from behind a barbecue, dusted
Speaker 3: me off, threw me onto a bus and said we're
Speaker 3: going home after my eighteenth. And that was at the base.
Speaker 2: So how many how many females? You know, here's the
Speaker 2: thing when you get into the army. How many females
Speaker 2: do you think mentally or physically get abused by a
Speaker 2: male in the army.
Speaker 3: If it's the same now as what it was back.
Speaker 1: Then, Yeah, oh is that a big issue.
Speaker 3: I don't know so much now because they've been out
Speaker 3: for twenty five years. But look, it was back then,
Speaker 3: and it.
Speaker 1: Was it pushed all the time, and the males would
Speaker 1: win always, it would always just be the time was.
Speaker 3: Look, there was a couple of women that warrant offices,
Speaker 3: a couple of officers, and even they treated the women
Speaker 3: like shit. It was like, I'm bigger than you, I've
Speaker 3: got more rank than you. So yeah, you just did
Speaker 3: what you did and toddled on.
Speaker 2: Like where do we have seen the movies where you
Speaker 2: know that where they pulled rank on a on a
Speaker 2: certain person to get what they want. Otherwise you're not
Speaker 2: getting in. Was any of that?
Speaker 3: Look that didn't happen to me. I'm not saying it
Speaker 3: didn't happen, but I was. I was lucky that didn't
Speaker 3: happen to me. I had well know in saying that
Speaker 3: I had the rank pulled to get me in.
Speaker 1: So but I'm saying is that there was no sexual
Speaker 1: abuse in there to pull rank.
Speaker 3: No, not that I'm aware of whether it happened or not.
Speaker 3: I don't know. There's a high possibility, you know, whether
Speaker 3: it was like it is in the corporate world, or
Speaker 3: was in the corporate world to sleep you out at
Speaker 3: the top? Did I did I see it? No? Did
Speaker 3: it happen? Probably, Oh, there's there's a very high possibility
Speaker 3: that that was happening. But I wasn't if that happened.
Speaker 3: I wasn't privy to any of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: And like I said, see I had that target on me.
Speaker 3: Everything around me was that was. It was very sketchy.
Speaker 3: Everyone was sort of on eggshells. You don't do anything
Speaker 3: in front of it because she knows the coo, you know,
Speaker 3: so probably probably. I still remember the day that I
Speaker 3: had to go up and only because they'd stuffed up
Speaker 3: some paperwork and I didn't I always knew. I didn't
Speaker 3: know who to go to, what to do. And am
Speaker 3: I saluting this one and my salute and that one
Speaker 3: I started to salute and think, oh shit, I'm not
Speaker 3: supposed to salute you. You don't have rank, so you know,
Speaker 3: and then it got to the point they taught used
Speaker 3: a tree too. If you had to. If you're constantly
Speaker 3: what they call throwing a boxer having to salute, you'd
Speaker 3: sort of stop and to his shoelaces. Now, back then
Speaker 3: you had to have you had shoelaces, and the courting
Speaker 3: your pants. It wasn't like it is now stitulastic. You
Speaker 3: had to tie it, so you deliberately tied a little loose,
Speaker 3: so what would always come undone, So you had no
Speaker 3: tom stop look down, You bend down and by the
Speaker 3: time you got up the officers walk past. You don't
Speaker 3: have to salute. You keep going. So you learned the
Speaker 3: drinks in the trade. You'd ended up with you right,
Speaker 3: arm'd be like you're drinking arm. It was so much
Speaker 3: bigger than left because it was constantly going up and
Speaker 3: down on your left fond would go, you know, depending
Speaker 3: on what you were carrying. But I had to go
Speaker 3: up into the office and the only person I could
Speaker 3: see was my SOO. I didn't know anybody else. I
Speaker 3: didn't trust anybody else at that stage, and I was
Speaker 3: a rookie and that was my safe sign. Yeah, So
Speaker 3: I went up and I spoke to him and then
Speaker 3: come out and the looks. I God was just like, okay,
Speaker 3: what's happened? And all it was was because they'd stuffed
Speaker 3: up my paperwork to go home, and I was stuck
Speaker 3: at Ingleburn and it was Anzac day and I was
Speaker 3: meant to be at home to do the Anzac march
Speaker 3: at home, and it would have been my first one
Speaker 3: in uniform, like not a cadet uniform, an army uniform.
Speaker 3: And they then sent me over to the QWI, which
Speaker 3: I knew really really well, and he hooked me up.
Speaker 3: He was another one I used to look after the cadets,
Speaker 3: so the unit I joined to put it on in perspective,
Speaker 3: the first nineteenth was the unit that looked after the
Speaker 3: Cobarkedet unit. So that's why I got to go to
Speaker 3: that unit. Yeah, they they were good. The qu was good.
Speaker 3: He looked after me. He got me kitted out and
Speaker 3: I had all my uniform and everything done. He polished,
Speaker 3: helped me get a pair of boots, which was hard,
Speaker 3: like they were like rockenhall shitited fine, well, I'm a
Speaker 3: three triple A so I've got the tiniest little foot.
Speaker 3: They had to order specifically to get my boots in.
Speaker 3: So he found a tiny little pair for me and
Speaker 3: we got them all cleaned up and everything, because I
Speaker 3: was meant to do Anzac Day in Sydney and I
Speaker 3: was going to do the march and yeah, last minute
Speaker 3: changed and they fixed my paperwork miraculously and I got
Speaker 3: to go home. But he was the only one that
Speaker 3: could fix it, the CEO, that was the only person.
Speaker 2: So you've done your two weeks of training and now
Speaker 2: you've been accepted.
Speaker 3: How that feel a relief? It was a relief and
Speaker 3: it was right at Christmas time too, So look, the
Speaker 3: bank balance was nice and healthy. I could do that.
Speaker 3: It was good because I got to go home and
Speaker 3: and be proud of the fact that I've made it
Speaker 3: now everything everything was done. I pulled off something I
Speaker 3: didn't think I could. And that was past that two
Speaker 3: week boot camp. And I thought Cadets was hard, especially
Speaker 3: with my dad as an officer and my one one
Speaker 3: CEO being the CEO of the cadet unit as well.
Speaker 3: They rode me hard knowing that I'd enlisted, and it
Speaker 3: made it even harder than because I had to pass everything.
Speaker 3: There was no failure allowed. But it meant that I
Speaker 3: got to come back to that cadet unit and help
Speaker 3: out as a reservist. I've got to come back, and
Speaker 3: so when the kids went to Singleton, that's where they
Speaker 3: all went for the army camp. Yeah, I got to
Speaker 3: go back and I got to help.
Speaker 1: So what was your role in the army.
Speaker 3: I was a clerk. I was an infantry clerk admin.
Speaker 3: So it sort of worked in my favor. The boys
Speaker 3: made sure that I got to go to the range
Speaker 3: and if they were abseiling, I got to absalex. They
Speaker 3: were going out in the Union Mogus and we're going
Speaker 3: up and down hills and whatever. I got to go
Speaker 3: as long as I had my paperwork done. But they
Speaker 3: knew that they had to make sure I had everything
Speaker 3: to get that paperwork done because if I didn't fill
Speaker 3: like the forms properly, they didn't get closed, fed, transported.
Speaker 3: It was a shit show. So they looked after me.
Speaker 3: I looked after them. So that day came, I've got
Speaker 3: my yellow envelope? Was that the yellow envelope? The yellow envelopes?
Speaker 1: Lopes, what's the yellow envelope?
Speaker 3: Look the brown envelope? Thick one would have been nice. No,
Speaker 3: this one was thick full of paperwork. I got the
Speaker 3: orders to go to Timor. And that was back in
Speaker 3: ninety nine and looking back now, I'm grave floating go.
Speaker 3: It was ugly, But isn't.
Speaker 1: That what you you've done all this training for?
Speaker 3: It was? It was, you know, I had to ab
Speaker 3: sail and what they call an angel drop. Now I
Speaker 3: will I'll ab sail off any cliff you saw at me.
Speaker 3: I'll absail off ail off the harbor bridge. But you
Speaker 3: made me climb up there without a rope attached to me,
Speaker 3: and not a hope in hazeses that happen. And I'm frozen.
Speaker 3: So they said we're going to jump off this and
Speaker 3: we're gonna go face first, and angel drops face first.
Speaker 3: So where you see people absel and they go down
Speaker 3: with their back towards the sky, No, no, no, this is
Speaker 3: you literally walk down face first, your back is against
Speaker 3: the wall and you're looking at the ground coming.
Speaker 1: Up against face first. What's the reason for that?
Speaker 3: There's sometimes you've got no choice but to go face first.
Speaker 3: You've got to be able to see where you're going.
Speaker 3: If you go down backwards, you can't see what's behind you.
Speaker 3: You've got to be able to have that view of
Speaker 3: what's coming up. So I had to do the Angel drop,
Speaker 3: and I can tell you now. I stood at the
Speaker 3: top of that thing, Neil, and I shit myself, I
Speaker 3: can't do this. I did. I stood at the top
Speaker 3: and I tease rolling down my face and why I
Speaker 3: can't do this? And the officer standing down the bottom,
Speaker 3: he looked up at me and when there's no such
Speaker 3: words can't. And all I could see was my father
Speaker 3: saying there's no such words can't. So I did it.
Speaker 3: They're all but pushing me over the edge. I can't
Speaker 3: stand up here and say I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3: I've got to do it. And yeah, I had a
Speaker 3: couple of false starts, walked to the back.
Speaker 1: Are you for the heads?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Petrified to heights?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: You stee me up in why.
Speaker 1: Would you Joini if you hoes planes?
Speaker 3: And not everybody jumps up, but it's like somebody that's
Speaker 3: got closs for faby because it's in a sauna. Wow,
Speaker 3: I'm shit scared of heights. She put me up in
Speaker 3: an apartment and I've done it. I've gone to Queensland
Speaker 3: on holidays and my husband, he'll tell you, I'll stand
Speaker 3: on the balcony and be like yep, fucking see. That's good.
Speaker 1: But did you do all this in boot camp? Like
Speaker 1: all this kind of training.
Speaker 3: We did have sailing, but it wasn't It wasn't the same,
Speaker 3: Like we.
Speaker 1: Didn't get to do the angel headfast head.
Speaker 3: First, and that's what it was. It wasn't gone down backwards,
Speaker 3: you go down backwards. That didn't phaze me. It was
Speaker 3: the fact that I had to go down. And then
Speaker 3: I think the hardest part was when I got halfway,
Speaker 3: I had to tie myself off, So I had to
Speaker 3: secure all myself on that rope. Now there is somebody
Speaker 3: standing down the bottom as a bully, so I was safe.
Speaker 3: Where I trusted him or not, I didn't know. But
Speaker 3: I had to tie myself off, put my arms out wide,
Speaker 3: and just hang there like an angel, just hovering in
Speaker 3: mid air. I'm like, if this rope fails, that's all
Speaker 3: I could see was the ground just coming up and
Speaker 3: hit me in the face. And then they all but
Speaker 3: do that to you. They drop you down, so you
Speaker 3: untie yourself and then you've got it basically free fall,
Speaker 3: and then the blade pulls at the rope at the
Speaker 3: bottom and stops you.
Speaker 1: So he stopped me.
Speaker 3: Two foot above the ground him. All the trust is
Speaker 3: in him. And I didn't know this bloke from bar
Speaker 3: bloody soap. This was an instructor I'd never met in
Speaker 3: my life.
Speaker 1: So what's this forts that set just to get you again,
Speaker 1: to see if you're going through it?
Speaker 3: Wow, it's the fear factor to see if you've got it,
Speaker 3: to see if you can do what it takes, to
Speaker 3: see if you can actually jump off a cliff and
Speaker 3: save somebody. I passed it.
Speaker 1: Even though you were chating yourself at the top day.
Speaker 1: They still crushed you for that.
Speaker 3: And now you put me on a rope and tell
Speaker 3: me to go and angel dropm and I'd love to Yep,
Speaker 3: I'll fight off and go on home. We go through
Speaker 3: Sandy Hollo to get home out to Koba, and I'll
Speaker 3: look up at all the cliffs around Sandy Hollow and
Speaker 3: I think how awesome would have been to just jump
Speaker 3: off those tabs of those every time we'll go through.
Speaker 1: So why was it that you didn't go? Then? What
Speaker 1: was the excuse?
Speaker 3: Ah, it wasn't an excuse. Well it was an excuse,
Speaker 3: but I was pregnant with my first What a time
Speaker 3: to get pregnant. Blood test results came back at the
Speaker 3: same time that I got my orders. Yeah, so you
Speaker 3: is that a regret? Look, I think the regret that
Speaker 3: I didn't get to do a tour. And now, especially
Speaker 3: for Anzac Day. When you go on to Anzac Day
Speaker 3: and you say that you were reservist and they say
Speaker 3: where did you serve?
Speaker 1: Well, you didn't get that change.
Speaker 3: I didn't get that chance. That's that after all the
Speaker 3: training I did. Yeah, I think I do get judged,
Speaker 3: but I think anyone that doesn't quite get that far.
Speaker 1: And then it is that the first thing people say
Speaker 1: to you, where'd you serve? And if you go, they
Speaker 1: don't want to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Now, when did you serve? Where did you serve?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 3: I served my country. I may not have been full time.
Speaker 3: I did a lot of extra hours that I probably
Speaker 3: shouldn't have, but I still put my signature on a
Speaker 3: piece of paper to hand my life to this country regardless.
Speaker 3: So I mean, I did all my training to get
Speaker 3: there and never got the chance.
Speaker 2: But what about after you had the pregnancy, didn't go
Speaker 2: back or you just didn't get your life just changed
Speaker 2: and that was it.
Speaker 3: I looked at it as I couldn't if I'd have
Speaker 3: gone over there and it was teamill and I look
Speaker 3: back now and go, thank god I didn't go. But
Speaker 3: I couldn't have orphaned a child.
Speaker 1: No one's walk after it.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, i'd had mum and dad there, but that
Speaker 3: was that was my child. And if I'd have gone
Speaker 3: over and something had happened, no, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that.
Speaker 2: Having the child changed the way you viewed about the army,
Speaker 2: and it did.
Speaker 3: It did.
Speaker 1: Your fun finished? Thing? Is?
Speaker 3: I think in a way, I think my fun had
Speaker 3: almost come to an end. Anyway, I had a wire
Speaker 3: officer and he was honest. He was an asshole. It
Speaker 3: was a right pig, and he hated women in the
Speaker 3: army to the point where he he walked in. I
Speaker 3: was at the Dubbo Army Base and I was stand
Speaker 3: there for the weekend camp and he walked in one day.
Speaker 3: And whether it's in a mood or not, I really
Speaker 3: don't give a ship. He had no right to come
Speaker 3: up and go, you know what, women shouldn't be in
Speaker 3: the force. You've got no right being here. And I
Speaker 3: just looked at him and I'm like, well, I've got
Speaker 3: just as much right as you do. Sir, and he
Speaker 3: looked at me and went, nah, you're the one that's
Speaker 3: going to get us all killed. Oh shes and look,
Speaker 3: knowing now what it all meant, Yeah, I can understand
Speaker 3: why he said it. Did he have the right to
Speaker 3: say it back then? Hell no, No, I hadn't even
Speaker 3: I hadn't even hit mid twenties. And this I've got
Speaker 3: this warrant officers standing there telling me that I had
Speaker 3: no right being in the defense force because I was female?
Speaker 1: Was that the only one time?
Speaker 3: Oh no, I'd had a couple, I'd had a couple
Speaker 3: of little altercations along the way with him, and it
Speaker 3: was because of my CEO. You didn't do Kapoka, you
Speaker 3: didn't do Puka Pony. You've got no right being here.
Speaker 3: You did a two week boot camp. What right do
Speaker 3: you have over us. We've done our servants, we've done
Speaker 3: our time. And I was like, well, I may not
Speaker 3: have done sick to eight weeks of it, but in
Speaker 3: that two weeks I hardly slept. I lost I think
Speaker 3: I went in a size twelve, I come out a
Speaker 3: size six.
Speaker 1: State.
Speaker 3: I lost so much weight it cooked me, it did, say,
Speaker 3: cooked me. Yeah, how long were you in four seven years.
Speaker 2: Any regrets besides you know, like you know you didn't
Speaker 2: go over to the said, but like, is any of
Speaker 2: the regrets that.
Speaker 3: You have punching that warrant oppos Oh? No, not look
Speaker 3: yes and no. I wish I'd have been able to
Speaker 3: stay longer, to see more, to do more, to get
Speaker 3: above a private to actually get some sort of rank
Speaker 3: would have been great.
Speaker 2: But you did want to go back, even after your pregnancy.
Speaker 2: Is there any time that you thought, you know what,
Speaker 2: maybe I should give it another game?
Speaker 3: Oh? Look, I thought about it, but where I lived
Speaker 3: made it really hard to So I was three hours
Speaker 3: one way from the closest army base. So to get
Speaker 3: there and do the Tuesday nights every Tuesday night, three
Speaker 3: hours there, you do three hours training, three hours home
Speaker 3: and then get up and go to work the next day.
Speaker 3: It just it wasn't feasible. And the roads between Cobra
Speaker 3: and Dubbo are so treacherous at night. The wildlife that
Speaker 3: you encounter, it's not just the kangaroos, between the goats,
Speaker 3: the emails, the pigs, you're like, you name it, something
Speaker 3: run out And it's not just that you've got the
Speaker 3: trucks and those that you know that do all the
Speaker 3: weird shit on the road that you don't want to
Speaker 3: see and you don't want to be part of It's
Speaker 3: It was hard. So no, Look, if I'd have gone back,
Speaker 3: if I'd have gone back in, I wouldn't have the
Speaker 3: life I have now. I wouldn't have the amazing opportunities
Speaker 3: that I've got coming up that I have with my
Speaker 3: husband and my second little one wouldn't be here. I
Speaker 3: wouldn't have Hannah. But I think has happened on a
Speaker 3: firm believer that things happened for a reason.
Speaker 1: Have you ever gone through any violence or any domestic
Speaker 1: balance herself?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, while I was serving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, was that because you were in the army? Look,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it was. Was he seven
Speaker 1: or not seven? Nothing to do with the army?
Speaker 3: No, absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1: It was just a kind of a control thing.
Speaker 3: I said. I think it was just the jealousy and
Speaker 3: because when I went away, well you thinking back then,
Speaker 3: it was it was a man's army and I was female.
Speaker 3: So he put two and two together around wondering is
Speaker 3: it was he put two and two together and got
Speaker 3: twenty two. He was an idiot to the point I
Speaker 3: wish I'd never met it. I really wish I'd never.
Speaker 1: Met How did you cope with that? And how with
Speaker 1: not knowing what was going to happen?
Speaker 3: I just, I literally, I just I think I just
Speaker 3: buried my head and seen and I didn't want to
Speaker 3: know about it.
Speaker 1: He just how long are you going?
Speaker 3: For years?
Speaker 1: Years?
Speaker 3: Yes, I was like, batter what syndrome? One day to
Speaker 3: stop it won't it won't happen again.
Speaker 1: And he always came to you and said sorry, yeh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So that what what you hear and what you see
Speaker 3: in the movies are you know, it's exactly the way
Speaker 3: it happens.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you think that if you do cry out for help,
Speaker 1: that they're not going to be No.
Speaker 3: One's going to believe you.
Speaker 1: What was the worst thing?
Speaker 3: The last the last thing, when you pin me up
Speaker 3: against the wall with knife against to my throat. I'm
Speaker 3: grateful for my neighbor. The neighbors stepped in. Without stepping in.
Speaker 3: She sheared door sling, and she obviously heard enough of
Speaker 3: them because what she told the police was she'd had
Speaker 3: enough and she was scared for my safety. She knew
Speaker 3: mom and dad, and that's that's the thing. I was
Speaker 3: so scared to say to him because I didn't want
Speaker 3: to ruin a reputation of mum and dad that was
Speaker 3: so high respected in town. And she said it sounded
Speaker 3: like gunshot, and knowing that he had access to firearms.
Speaker 3: We mates, we used to go to pick chasing of
Speaker 3: a nighttime and things like that. She called the police
Speaker 3: and I was dragged outside and into the car by him.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen next. I
Speaker 3: was just I think I was just numb, completely numb,
Speaker 3: to the point where I just I don't even there's
Speaker 3: bits I still can't remember, and I think my mom
Speaker 3: has just shut them out deliberately, and I don't want
Speaker 3: to think about it. I've got the most amazing, supportive
Speaker 3: husband and family now I'm so grateful for and I
Speaker 3: couldn't I couldn't ask for a better person to spend
Speaker 3: my life with now. But to turn around and look
Speaker 3: at out the car window and see a pistol standing
Speaker 3: there with an officer behind it, I didn't know whether
Speaker 3: to be scared or relieved. It was relief because he
Speaker 3: was arrested, and that was it. That was it. I
Speaker 3: don't know how I built courage I built courage to
Speaker 3: to kick him out, all his stuff. It was outside gone,
Speaker 3: made of mine now. And I said before he's not
Speaker 3: with us anymore. He stayed. He stayed with me. He stayed,
Speaker 3: God loving me. He sat on the lounge. I didn't sleep
Speaker 3: at all that night. I tossed and turned just shit,
Speaker 3: scared that he was going to come back. But he
Speaker 3: stayed and sat on that lounge two nights, didn't leave
Speaker 3: the house to just stayed there to make sure I
Speaker 3: was going to be okay. No on, Yeah, he was out,
Speaker 3: but what was going to come next, I didn't know.
Speaker 3: And from what I know now, he's not even in
Speaker 3: the country, which is for me. Last time that was Yeah,
Speaker 3: that was the last time, thank god.
Speaker 1: And just was still value in the army. Yeah you think.
Speaker 3: That I have the I learned. I learned combat while
Speaker 3: I was there, so I literally know. And I was
Speaker 3: told when I joined. The first thing I was told
Speaker 3: was you need to understand if you get into a fight,
Speaker 3: you'll be charged by the defense force, but you can
Speaker 3: be charged by the police force as well, like it's
Speaker 3: a defense and a small charge. And I was taught
Speaker 3: how to kill a person with one hit and look
Speaker 3: at me, Okay, this question bug, But yeah, I was,
Speaker 3: And I think I was always just too afraid of that.
Speaker 3: I think I was more afraid of getting locked up there.
Speaker 3: There'd be days where everything was rosy, like months, and
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, something can happened.
Speaker 1: You ever go to like the base or wherever you wear,
Speaker 1: would it be bruises on your own?
Speaker 3: He knew, he knew how to not bruce. I think
Speaker 3: Mum and Dad knew.
Speaker 1: They didn't they want to get involved, or they just.
Speaker 3: It was a family didn't want to get involved with, Okay,
Speaker 3: but I think they knew. I think a lot of
Speaker 3: the town knew because once he was gone and I'd
Speaker 3: moved on and everything, that was like why. I even
Speaker 3: asked myself, now, why what the hell was I thinking?
Speaker 3: What the hell's gone through my head?
Speaker 1: Stuck in that bubble.
Speaker 3: But to go to go to work in the middle of
Speaker 3: summer with a turtle neck shut on, it's enough to
Speaker 3: sort of rise a few red flags. But it's yeah,
Speaker 3: it's not common knowledge too.
Speaker 2: That's why I've had a lot of females on my
Speaker 2: show and with domestic violence, and they say the same
Speaker 2: things what you say one they think it's going to stop.
Speaker 3: It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't too.
Speaker 2: It's it's like you're scared to reach out because people
Speaker 2: who reach out to might not believe you, or that
Speaker 2: they just think it's all fucking ship, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. It's just like you're trying to get attention.
Speaker 3: I think I don't think people want to get involved to. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you don't want to get involved in somebody else's personal life.
Speaker 3: That's that's their deal. You know, what happens behind closed
Speaker 3: doors is the same with you, Like what was beyond
Speaker 3: closed doors and not in my business. You know, that's
Speaker 3: your life, not mine. So but yeah, I've well and
Speaker 3: truly moved on. Yeah, as I say, what doesn't kill
Speaker 3: you makes you're stronger.
Speaker 1: Right correct, very correct, very correct. But I don't think
Speaker 1: you'd be involved in army or anything like that now
Speaker 1: that that's it. That's just a it's for me.
Speaker 3: Look, i still have the utmost respect to the Defense Force,
Speaker 3: and I've got a lot of mates that went to
Speaker 3: team or one in particularly is actually from home. It
Speaker 3: missed a lot of them up so bad. There was
Speaker 3: ship that they shouldn't have done and shouldn't have seen.
Speaker 3: And I'm really grateful I didn't go now because I
Speaker 3: didn't have to have that memory. But look, I have
Speaker 3: that utmost respect. I go to Inzac Day every year.
Speaker 3: I'm what I do now. I'm actually still in a
Speaker 3: way involved with the Defense Force without being part of
Speaker 3: the Defense Force. So that knowledge that I've had helps
Speaker 3: me where I currently work. So I manage a sports
Speaker 3: supplement store. How its Singleton, and because we've got the
Speaker 3: Army base there, the boys get off the bus on
Speaker 3: a Thursday night, you can guarantee four o'clock. You watch
Speaker 3: the coaches come through and you say to count the
Speaker 3: heads and go, yep, that's a loaded bus, shit wearing
Speaker 3: for a long night. And that generally means I'm standing
Speaker 3: there and I get yes, ma'am, Amen, hello, amen. It's
Speaker 3: like the first time they did it. Oh my dude,
Speaker 3: I'm not that old. But even my staff now he
Speaker 3: calls me me and I'm like, yeah, it's a side
Speaker 3: of respect. Anyone in the Defense Force has to call
Speaker 3: you mem and so it's just the way it is.
Speaker 1: But what was describe you one word.
Speaker 3: Resilient, determined. I'm now one of those people. You you
Speaker 3: asked me to do something, you tell me I can't
Speaker 3: do it. It's probably the worst thing you could do,
Speaker 3: because I'm going to find a way. It's just it's
Speaker 3: just me. That's the way I've been raised to have
Speaker 3: that thick skin, you know. And look, I could say, look,
Speaker 3: I had a horrible childhood, but I didn't. I'm lucky
Speaker 3: I have. My parents are still together, which is almost
Speaker 3: unheard of this day and age. I was lucky I
Speaker 3: grew up in the bush. It sort of made me
Speaker 3: a little more grounded in a way I supposed to
Speaker 3: being brought up in the city. Resilient and determined thing.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it, things having