WEBVTT - The secret ‘jobs for mates’ report Labor won’t release 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:09.320 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven Am. Murray. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.160 Watt has talked a big game about fixing our environment 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.640 laws by the end of the year, but this week 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.880 the government's attempt to do that fell apart, with Greens 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.959 and Coalition senators refusing the back to changes. At the 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.840 same time, Labour faced a dramatic revolt in the Senate 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.240 over its refusal to release a secret report meant to 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.440 fix the culture of cronyism and Jobs for Mats have 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.879 a campaign on restoring integrity to government. Labor is now 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.720 facing a Senate demanding that I live up to that promise. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.320 Today Press Gallery journalist Karen Middleton on why it's so 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.519 hard to fix our environment laws and whether the government's 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.080 hubris is getting in the way of its promise for 0:00:49.159 --> 0:01:01.560 greater transparency. It's Saturday, November one, Karen. The government was 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.640 hoping to get its environmental reforms passed by the end 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.119 of this year, with the Environment Minister saying it's now 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:08.839 or never. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.000 Now is the best opportunity to pass a balanced set 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.920 of laws in the spirit of the Samuel Review that 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:21.040 are firmly in the national interest. Put simply, it's now 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:22.040 or never. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:23.160 So is it never? 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:25.600 What's an excellent question. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.319 It's not looking great simply because the other parties have 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.679 now gained up on the government to send this off 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.440 to a Senate inquiry. It's been extended to March of 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.800 next year, so it makes it very difficult to get 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.560 the legislation through the Parliament before then unless the Minister 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.320 Murray what can negotiate an outcome with one or other 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:51.640 parties that then withdraws the support for the Senate inquiry somehow. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.080 But that's a lot to get done with only like 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.640 sitting week left between now and the end of the year. 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.720 So you have to say the chances of it getting 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:01.880 through by a year's end are pretty slim. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.120 We hear a lot about the environmental laws, but can 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.360 you just briefly explain what it is that the government's 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:08.280 trying to reform. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:10.480 Well, the government has made the point and I think 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.840 the one thing everyone agrees on is that the laws 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.560 as they stand are not working for anyone much. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.040 The current laws are broken. We know our current environment 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.120 laws aren't working for the environment, they're not working for business, 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.880 they're not working for the community, and it's high time 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.040 that we got them changed. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:32.280 The laws are trying to navigate that problem, make it 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:40.119 less complicated for approving projects for industry that are important 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.400 for the economy, but making sure that those projects don't 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.120 cause serious. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.160 Harm to the environment, and of course where the balance 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.080 should be is the great big question. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.639 So as it stands at the moment, neither the Coalition 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.880 or the Greens want to support the bill in its 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.400 current form. Do we know any details as to what 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:02.640 each of them want to change. 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.840 Well, I guess it extends from those separate arguments. For example, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.720 the Greens wanted the inclusion of what's called a climate trigger, 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.560 which is a provision that every proposed development has to 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.400 be assessed for its impact on climate change and emissions. 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.720 Now the government is not going forward with that proposal, 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.639 and that is something that industry is very strongly opposed. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.120 But what they currently have proposed is at least requiring 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:36.480 these development projects to indicate their impact on emissions, so 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.760 not have a trigger per se, but do have a 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.520 reporting requirement. So that's the sort of proposed compromise thus far. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.600 And of course on the industry side, they're very concerned 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.720 that there will be too much ground seeded to protecting 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.640 the environment that will make their operations in a range 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:57.160 of different sectors unworkable, and their big concern at the 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.440 moment is that there's too much red tape, that too 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.800 much too much regulation, and that it makes it too 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:08.480 difficult to operate as large scale businesses in Australia unless 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.000 some kind of different balance is struck. So will the 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.720 government be more inclined to go for a deal with 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.200 the Greens or with the coalition? 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:18.440 Well, that's a big question. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.240 I think they probably prefer to have a deal with 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:26.360 the Coalition simply because they've enjoyed holding the Greens at 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.520 bay and not giving the Greens a victory. The Greens 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.680 being in their same general center left space in the 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.080 political landscape. But at the moment the Greens are probably 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.320 closer to where the government wants to be than the Coalition. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.080 What have you made of the way Susan Lee has 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.839 handled negotiations on this, Well, this is. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.239 A tricky one for her because she was the Environment 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.960 Minister in government when Graham Samuel hand it down his report, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.520 and now of course she's leading the opposition, and she's 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:58.719 leading an opposition that is split on matters relating to 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.320 the environment in the broad sense and particularly in relation 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.880 to climate change and energy and all of these things 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.799 are interlocked. The oppositions initially suggested the government should split 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.680 the bill and kind of deal with the development part 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.880 of it and then the environment part of it separately. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.760 So we want to see the bill split so we 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:22.360 can streamline approvals and we can improve environmental protections separately. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.359 And but even big business is saying via organizations like 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.640 the Business Council of Australia that they're not keen on that, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.960 but they just want this dealt with this distract on 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.160 and on. It's a problem, as we've said, if it 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.159 stays as it is needs fixing, so they don't want 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.920 that to happen. So Susan Lee's got to manage her 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.520 traditional constituency both within our own coalition in Parliament and 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.679 more broadly in the business community. But also it doesn't 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.840 want to give too much away, so she is in 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.719 a tricky spot and that I think is motivating some 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.600 of their hesitations in their negotiating. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.839 Karen Murray Well has really talked up his ability to 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.760 get these laws through and to get them through this 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.960 So is this a failure for him as Environment Minister? 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.520 Well, I guess some will say that I think it 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.400 was ambitious to seek you had get it up this 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.080 year and the government set the parliamentary timetable with not 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.560 very many sitting weeks. It means that that does hamper 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:21.120 the government's ability to get complicated legislation through where negotiation 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.000 is required. So it's probably a little bit ambitious to 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.599 suggest it was all definitely going to get through this year. 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.920 But Murray Watt has been given the job because he's 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.719 become the sort of fix it person in the government 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:38.400 for political problems and he's a tough negotiator, so we'll 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.520 see where he gets to. And the Prime Minister's got 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:46.560 an eye to Western Australia and Queensland and certainly the 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.000 business and industry concerns and the basis of those economies there. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:52.720 He's thinking very much about those. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.680 He won a lot of seats in Western Australia three 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.120 years ago, he hung on to them at the last election. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.000 He made some more ground politically in Queensland. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.960 So that's what he's got an eye on it, as 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.320 well as the substance of the policy coming up. 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.440 And when we release it and when we release it 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.520 and we make the responses. 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.560 And when we're releasing it the secret report the government 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:30.520 is refusing to release. Karen. This week the government faced 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.320 pressure over report they are refusing to release about the 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.000 Jobs for Mates culture in Canberra. It all sounds very 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:39.920 secret and hush hush. Why is that? 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.600 Well, this goes back a couple of years to a 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.440 private member's bill that one of the independents in the 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.480 House of Representatives, Sophie Scomps, had put forward. It was 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:56.440 legislation that was targeting the practice of appointing friendly people, 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.360 people either who come from their own political party or 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.240 who are a j sent to important jobs into bureaucracy 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.720 or overseas posts and the like. And Sophie Scomps's bill 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.200 was the Transparent and Quality Public Appointments Bill, which in 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.600 short form was also known as the Ending Jobs for 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.760 Mates Bill. Now, the Government wasn't keen on that and 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.040 doesn't like private members bills as a rule, governments generally 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.080 don't and they pick and choose when they let them 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.760 go forward. The sort of trade off for that was 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.880 that they undertook to have a review of their own 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:34.040 appointments and that was conducted by Lanelle Briggs. We understand 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.120 that review finding went back to the government, not that 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.200 long after, so sort of coming on for two years 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.360 ago and we haven't seen it. 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.679 So, as you just said, there's clearly a lot of 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.160 people who want to know what's in the report, But 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.120 can you take me back to why we needed the 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.000 report in the first place. I mean, what was the 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.000 cronyism It was looking to stamp out what kind of 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.840 mates and what kind of jobs are we talking about here? 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.679 Well often seeing bureaucratic jobs otherwise. Recent one you might 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.839 note was the appointment of Stephen Jones too. I think 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.240 it's the OECD job overseas as Australia's ambassador. Now Stephen 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.199 Jones was Assistant Treasurer. He's a long time labor MP, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.400 he retired from politics and now he's got that job. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.320 So that's the kind of thing as an example that 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.120 gets the cross bench upset and suggests that there are 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.440 other people that might be worthy of such jobs. 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.360 All those appointments may well have been based on merit, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.000 but it does make you suspicious when they've been sitting 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.280 on this report for two years and won't release it. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.160 People like Senator David Pocock, the Independent from the Act 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.839 makes the point that these people, people like Stephen Jones 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.360 and others may well be the best person for the job. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.320 They may have all the qualifications. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:47.920 It may well be a merit based process, but the 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.960 process isn't transparent and so that's not good for public trust. 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.880 Australians deserved to know how decisions are being made and 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.760 how we can fix a system that too often rewards 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.679 connections over competence. We don't know, you know why it 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.440 is officially that the Government hasn't released that report, but 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.600 you've got to assume there might be some things in 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.360 it that are not good in terms of maybe suggesting 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:12.880 there is a little bit much of this kind of 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:13.480 thing going on. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.080 And this year she got quite heated in the Senate 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.760 this week, Karen, can you tell me how it played out? 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:19.280 Well? 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.080 What we've seen in the Senate at the end of 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.200 this last sitting period was a battle of wills and 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:30.240 parliamentary tactics. On Wednesday, those opposition parties and cross benches 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.719 ganged up to use their numbers combined to force the 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.080 Government to extend the Thursday question time by an extra 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.840 half an hour and allow five more questions from non 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.880 government senators to put extra pressure on the government to 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.000 make the point that they weren't going to take this lightly. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.720 Thanks very much, Deputy President. I take great pleasure, well 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:57.600 maybe not actually in moving this motion today, because it 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.880 highlights a very significant problem that we have in this 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.600 country and then we have here in this Parliament, and 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.960 that is with a government that is unwilling to be 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.760 compliant with the orders of this chamber. Is with the 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:14.280 government that is not willing to be upfront and transparent 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:15.680 with the Australian people. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.160 In response, on the Thursday, the government not only allowed 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.640 the extra half hour, which was a ruling of the Senate, 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.760 but they then used their powers in the Parliament to 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.360 make question time on and on and on their own. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.320 Senators jumped up and said, well, hang on, we deserve 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.679 extra time as well, so we're going to ask our questions. 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:36.840 Thank you. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.920 I seek leave to ask a question on behalf of 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.040 the beautiful state of Tasmania regarding the nutrition workforce. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:49.199 Is they granted? Is not granted the Senator Brown. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:52.600 Order? 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.520 And then they used procedural motions and the light to drag. 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.760 Question time on for an interminable three and a half 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.440 hour on the longest we've seen in very long time. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.440 So that's the sort of game plan we're getting to 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.880 in the Parliament, and that tells you that the government 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.680 was determined not to just acquiesce. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.640 There is some politicking going on here too. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.640 The protagonists in the Senate on this point are David 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.800 Pocock and Katie Galaho, the Minister. Now they both come 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.959 from the Act, they're both senators contesting the same space. 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.680 And Katie Gallaho isn't a big fan of David Pocock, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.960 who's appeared on the scene two elections ago, was reelected 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.840 and has captured some of the vote that used to 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:38.640 be a Labor vote in the Senate. So there's a 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.480 bit of personal animus going on and agenda going on 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.800 here under the surface, as well as the broader political 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.520 argument about whether the government should be keeping such things 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.160 secret or not. And the government has declared this a 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.240 cabinet document, so it's not allowed to be released. And 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.040 there are shouts of hypocrisy from the other side because 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.959 under the previous government the Labor Party in opposition were 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:04.800 furious that the Morrison government did that, very frequently. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.560 Sending all very Shakespearean Karen, how damaging do you think 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.920 this could be for the government, because they were elected 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.120 on a platform of integrity and transparency. We have a 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.880 knack that seemingly does nothing. They're also clamping down on 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.240 freedom of information requests and now we have a secret 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.200 report about jobs are made that the government won't release. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.720 Can they really hand on hearts? They've done anything to 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.920 restore transparency and people's faith in government? 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:33.640 Well, they have done some things. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.920 I mean, we saw the ridiculous and alarming multiple ministries 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.439 issue with Scott Morrison that was exposed when later it 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.800 was in government about how Scott Morrison secretly took on 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:45.480 responsibility for all kinds. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.000 Of portfolios that nobody knew about. 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.760 They've made changes to ensure that that doesn't happen, that 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.319 that is much more transparent. Having said that, what you 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.760 just outlined is very true, and they are doing a 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.840 lot that seems to run counter to the retoric of 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:00.520 transparency in aco ability. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.120 How bad will it be? 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.880 Well, it depends a little bit on whether all of 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.800 these incremental issues end up forming a picture in the 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:09.640 minds of the public. 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.960 You know, are people very interested in freedom of information. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.199 While we in the media are people who are politically engaged. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.800 Are the broader population not so much? Do they care 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.160 much about reports? For jobs for the boys. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:22.840 Maybe not. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.200 Do they care about all the shenanigans in parliament, probably not. 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.920 But if opposition parties and independents can start to form 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:32.640 a picture of the government in the minds of the 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:37.240 people as not doing what it said or not standing 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.520 up for what it said, it would then I think 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.360 that does become a problem. And there's always a risk 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.000 for a government that's one with a very big majority, 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.680 as this government has, of getting a bit arrogant and complacent, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.320 and all of these things can come together and cause 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:55.640 a problem for a government as it faces the next election. 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.320 So we'll see whether the government can side step all 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.920 of these and downplay them enough for them not to 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:01.600 be a problem. 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.160 But I think they'd be wise to. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.840 Be vigilant about them and start to ensure that that 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:08.360 impression is not one that's formed. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.160 Karen, thank you so much for your time. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:13.920 Thank you for having me. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.720 This week, we learned that the government has begun deporting 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.880 people to Novu. It's the government's solution to a High 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.040 Court ruling that found out was against the law to 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.520 hold people indefinitely in immigration attention. The deal with Naru 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.200 is worth billions of dollars and is set to last 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.240 for thirty years, but it raises a lot of questions 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.480 which we're going to get into tomorrow. Seven Am is 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.200 a daily show from Solstice Media. It's made by Adigus Bastow, 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:55.720 Chris Danegate, Daniel James, Ruby Jones, Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.600 and Zodnfecho. Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.280 Josh Gin of Envelope Bodier. Thanks for listening and thanks 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.360 for your support. See you tomorrow.