Speaker 1: I got a team. IT'SU Project, it's doctor Lillian, it's
Speaker 1: Doctor Tiffany, and it's the shitkicker from Moe that's right
Speaker 1: to Academics, and the moccasin wearing Bogan from Little Travali.
Speaker 1: I hope this finds you. Well, it's a Monday as
Speaker 1: we record. It's a two twenty pm Monday version of
Speaker 1: a podcast. We'll start with the pugilist down at the
Speaker 1: bottom of my screen, who's looking very academic in her
Speaker 1: big fucking gigantic academic geek glasses.
Speaker 2: How are you My eyes are so blurry today, even
Speaker 2: with these on.
Speaker 1: What is that about?
Speaker 3: Is that?
Speaker 1: Do you know what? Sometimes there's a correlation between blood
Speaker 1: pressure and blurry eyes. Oh and of course tiredness and
Speaker 1: blurry eyes. And there's a bunch of things. But maybe
Speaker 1: you just got a bit of snot in them.
Speaker 2: I don't know how old you get snot in my
Speaker 2: eyes up.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't mean snot, I just mean, you know,
Speaker 1: like mukissy stuff. You know, that's just I'll listen to
Speaker 1: gross because you neither of you would like pooh or
Speaker 1: anything or or have snott le mucus. Because you both princesses.
Speaker 3: That's right. I'm wearing glasses too, so we're in the
Speaker 3: glasses club, Tiffany. But mine is because of age. It
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with stuff in my eyes.
Speaker 1: When did you when when did you hit the the
Speaker 1: visual wall?
Speaker 3: Well, for this, this visual wall, which is the age
Speaker 3: related one where you can't see things close, I hit
Speaker 3: that wall like really significantly, only in like the last
Speaker 3: six to eight months. I feel like before I was
Speaker 3: losing it, probably a few years ago, like like it
Speaker 3: was becoming more difficult, but it wasn't that bad. But
Speaker 3: now I go to a restaurants and I'm like, Okay, can't
Speaker 3: read this. The lights too dim, it's too small, Like
Speaker 3: what is your problem? Which is annoying because I hate
Speaker 3: where I actually hate glasses because I've always had vision
Speaker 3: issues because i couldn't see far from age seven, so
Speaker 3: I've always had to wear glasses or contacts. And then
Speaker 3: I decided, like five years ago, I think during COVID,
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to like
Speaker 3: have the laser surgery and I'm going to have like
Speaker 3: this moment in my life where i can wake up
Speaker 3: and see the world as it is rather than having
Speaker 3: to wait to like put my contacts in, and so
Speaker 3: I did and it was fine. But now this vision
Speaker 3: issue has happened, so it's like, well, what the why
Speaker 3: did I do that? Now I'm going to have to
Speaker 3: wear glasses or contacts again. So it was very short lived.
Speaker 1: But what about what about you cook Sorry? Sorry, million,
Speaker 1: what about you cooks?
Speaker 2: I had glasses for quite a while, but my eyes
Speaker 2: saw it to take in a notable dive in the
Speaker 2: last twelve months because now I'm finding kind of have
Speaker 2: to start wearing them.
Speaker 1: I reckon forty ish is about the time for a
Speaker 1: lot of people it is.
Speaker 3: I was r.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was born with what they used to call
Speaker 1: I don't know what the actual medical name is, but
Speaker 1: in the old days, I was born with a lazy eye.
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard that term?
Speaker 3: My mom's got that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know what it's but my left
Speaker 1: eye was turned like just so handsome. So instead of
Speaker 1: it being the normal kind of you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like the clocks on our hands. On a clock is
Speaker 1: like say three point fifteen, you know, straight nine and
Speaker 1: three straight horizontal, it was turned I don't know which way.
Speaker 1: But then when I was five, so I had corrective
Speaker 1: surgery on my wonky eye. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: do this anymore. And it was weak, like I couldn't
Speaker 1: see shit out of it was terrible. And so they
Speaker 1: back then was we're going to give you surgery on
Speaker 1: this side, We're going to straighten that. Then we're going
Speaker 1: to make you walk around like a fucking pirate with
Speaker 1: a patch over a good eye. Like so I was
Speaker 1: a five year old pirate. All I needed was a
Speaker 1: parrot and it didn't help, and I kept I just
Speaker 1: bumped into shit and it didn't it didn't improve it
Speaker 1: or a little. And even now, yeah, my left eye
Speaker 1: now is terrible. My right eye is pretty much awesome,
Speaker 1: but my left eye is negligible in terms of the
Speaker 1: value that I get from it.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was the same process for my nephew
Speaker 3: who's about twenty five now. He had the same thing
Speaker 3: where he had to wear a patch for a period
Speaker 3: of time when he was young, and probably other other
Speaker 3: things as well, I think so, I do think so.
Speaker 3: But it might not have been just that that helped him.
Speaker 3: Might have been like other things that I'm not I
Speaker 3: don't remember that he did. But yeah, I know, what's.
Speaker 1: Up, doc, What have you been up to? What's news?
Speaker 1: How's the world of psychology? A paper? More broken? Less broken?
Speaker 1: Are you healing minds and waving your bloody cognitive magic
Speaker 1: over the population? What are you doing well?
Speaker 3: My work with my clients is great because I love
Speaker 3: doing it and a lot of them have don't need
Speaker 3: me anymore, so that's good for them, which is great.
Speaker 3: So on that front great. I also took a nice
Speaker 3: long break and I went away with my daughter for
Speaker 3: a bit and visited my family and spent some time
Speaker 3: in other places that I hadn't been in decades, which
Speaker 3: was really nice. And now I'm back back on the
Speaker 3: work train. And I always have a lot of balls
Speaker 3: in the air with work. So I have my practice,
Speaker 3: and then I have the you know, containing your brain
Speaker 3: app and then i'm you know, working on new projects.
Speaker 3: And I did a speaking engagement a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 3: which was something I don't do anymore. I used to
Speaker 3: do much more often before COVID, but I was completely
Speaker 3: out of practice. So that was very stressful cray because
Speaker 3: I had to do a presentation in front of a
Speaker 3: hundred people and live and normally like I could completely
Speaker 3: do that no problem online I'm very you know, I've
Speaker 3: always and I've done it in the past to more
Speaker 3: than a hundred people, but I'm just completely out of practice,
Speaker 3: and so, yeah, i was over preparing and you know,
Speaker 3: all the stuff that you do when you're feeling stressed
Speaker 3: about something. No, but it went well, it went well.
Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. I always like it when I do it.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I wonder about the balance between the level of
Speaker 3: stress and time and then the satisfaction that you get
Speaker 3: after and like, what, you know, is it worth like
Speaker 3: is it something that I should pursue or not? And
Speaker 3: then I'm like and then I have to like think
Speaker 3: to myself, Okay, well, if I do it more, it's
Speaker 3: going to be less stressful and I'm not going to
Speaker 3: have to prepare as much. So the balance is going
Speaker 3: to be different the next time.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, But.
Speaker 3: Because I'm always doing so many things, I'm not sure
Speaker 3: about which things to prioritize. You know, I think you've.
Speaker 1: Got to be really passionate about it. TIFF's kind of
Speaker 1: opened the door on corporate speaking and public speaking, and
Speaker 1: she's good at it and she's got vast potential. But
Speaker 1: and we speak about this a lot, you can't be
Speaker 1: good at the thing that you don't do much, you know,
Speaker 1: And so it's like with and even speaking online, which
Speaker 1: I know you're naturally a good communicator, right, But even
Speaker 1: for me if I don't do one for say six
Speaker 1: or eight weeks, which is not that often that that happens,
Speaker 1: but yeah, when I get back, I'm like, it takes
Speaker 1: me a minute to find my feet. Yeah, but when
Speaker 1: I bang them out, Like the last six weeks, I've
Speaker 1: done at least one every week, and some of them
Speaker 1: like I've got one this Friday. It's all day. It's
Speaker 1: me on stage all day with the room full of humans,
Speaker 1: and it's just that it's just I mean, for me,
Speaker 1: it's like training. It's like reps. It's like sets. It's
Speaker 1: like you can't get strong without getting to the gym
Speaker 1: and doing the work and doing the reps and doing
Speaker 1: the sets and like. And even if your knowledge is
Speaker 1: good and your technical skills are good, and you know
Speaker 1: you're well qualified and all of that, it's not the
Speaker 1: same as being able to stand on a stage or
Speaker 1: whatever the situation is, being in front of you know,
Speaker 1: twenty fifty one hundred, one thousand people and being able
Speaker 1: to in the moment, read the room and build rapport
Speaker 1: and build connect and understand the experience of the audience
Speaker 1: while you're up there in real time trying to keep
Speaker 1: your shit together, think about what you're going to say,
Speaker 1: but also have enough situational and I guess social intelligence
Speaker 1: and awareness to be able to go is this landing
Speaker 1: or is this missing? And if it's missing, what do
Speaker 1: I need to do to get it back on track?
Speaker 1: Like what are they telling me without actually saying anything,
Speaker 1: Because the audience are always speaking to you even when
Speaker 1: they're not speaking to you. So for me, there's that
Speaker 1: that And again the other thing too is like what
Speaker 1: works for me? Would I would not suggest for you?
Speaker 1: You know. I did one last week at Lawn and
Speaker 1: this lady who spoke before me. I mentioned this the
Speaker 1: other day on the show. But she was great. But
Speaker 1: she was very organized, very structured, very slick, very polished,
Speaker 1: very well presented, very articulate and just fucking bang on,
Speaker 1: you know, and very like, very good at what she did.
Speaker 1: But everything was very structured and organized. And then I
Speaker 1: get up I'm like a golden retriever, but you know,
Speaker 1: chasing its right, and it just to be able to
Speaker 1: get up there and no, no, it's and no presentation
Speaker 1: and no slides and just start talking and see where
Speaker 1: the room's at and see where I'm going to go,
Speaker 1: which is, by the way, not the best way to
Speaker 1: do it, but it's the best way to do it
Speaker 1: for me. So I think about you're getting reps in,
Speaker 1: you need to figure out also what's good for you,
Speaker 1: Like what's the how much information, how much storytelling, how
Speaker 1: much humor if any? Like Tip's got good stories, and
Speaker 1: I think it's always good, like banging out a story
Speaker 1: and then kind of exploring the message in the story,
Speaker 1: because once you tell a story, you've got if it's
Speaker 1: a good story, and if you're not a shit storyteller,
Speaker 1: you've got emotional connection, right, But when you're just blurting
Speaker 1: out data or information or theory, you don't get the
Speaker 1: same level of engagement. Generally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it is helpful to tie it into something
Speaker 3: relatable and I you know, it's funny the storytelling things.
Speaker 3: My dad is like the best storyteller, Like he's so
Speaker 3: good at it, and I don't think it's filtered down.
Speaker 3: I can do like I can relate something like relate
Speaker 3: information to something relatable and practical but not in the
Speaker 3: form of a story. Often like it's in the form
Speaker 3: of like, oh, you know, like you know times when
Speaker 3: you do this or you know that kind of segue
Speaker 3: or you know, way of relating a practical thing to
Speaker 3: something real, because you know, I always say to people
Speaker 3: like I haven't I haven't trained as a storyteller. I'm
Speaker 3: a story listener, and that's that's what I do. That's
Speaker 3: what I do. Yeah, and that's maybe what I'm good
Speaker 3: at as well, But I don't. It's not about me,
Speaker 3: like it's so like so it's it's just a little
Speaker 3: it's a little bit more effort for me to think
Speaker 3: about how do I engage them, And it's not necessarily
Speaker 3: going to be via It could be via a story,
Speaker 3: for sure, but it might be via other ways of
Speaker 3: Like for instance, with this group, I did some practical
Speaker 3: exercises along, so I've always explaining different strategies we actually
Speaker 3: did some of them together. Or I'd related to something
Speaker 3: that I knew that they were all into sports, and
Speaker 3: so I'd relate a lot of the things that I
Speaker 3: said to and what an athlete might do or how
Speaker 3: an athlete might think about something, or you know, or
Speaker 3: just talk about it in general, we're all you know,
Speaker 3: on the same page with that. We all have similar interests. So,
Speaker 3: like you said, there's lots of different ways to go
Speaker 3: about something and impart information, and you don't have to
Speaker 3: be the same as somebody else. Everyone's got their own way.
Speaker 3: And it would have been probably a really good experience
Speaker 3: for that audience you're talking about to have completely two different,
Speaker 3: you know, presentations done in different ways, because it would
Speaker 3: have suited you know, a whole range of people having
Speaker 3: it having you know, those two different options.
Speaker 1: I think, So what about you, tif have you how
Speaker 1: have you changed your reckon over the last five years
Speaker 1: standing in front of groups like as, how has your
Speaker 1: stuff evolved?
Speaker 2: Well? I think obviously this year a lot because I'm
Speaker 2: doing a course that's pushing me in to areas that
Speaker 2: I don't normally go in terms of how I structure
Speaker 2: the information and plan it a lot more meticulously than
Speaker 2: what is my general way, And I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of really beneficial positives in that. But there's a
Speaker 2: lot of internal pushback that I have to battle through
Speaker 2: because it's uncomfortable and it's unme right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the pushback is good because you do have
Speaker 3: to keep it true to yourself as well. I think
Speaker 3: sometimes that's helpful to have that structure and like, know
Speaker 3: what a nice structure looks like and what are the
Speaker 3: ingredients to a good presentation, but then have that real
Speaker 3: flexibility and personal touch to it so that it's still you.
Speaker 3: It's not cookie cutter, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: exactly the way that it's being taught.
Speaker 1: But what about communication more broadly though, for both of you. Right,
Speaker 1: Like you sit down and you would talk about a
Speaker 1: lot of the same issues with people, or there would
Speaker 1: be issues or topics that you revisit if you coach people.
Speaker 1: Lillions of psychologists different but you know, not in the
Speaker 1: it's not that far apart. Like, let's start with you, Lylan, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you know if person A is depressed and
Speaker 1: dealing with a bit of anxiety, in person B is
Speaker 1: the same, in person SEE is the same. You know,
Speaker 1: same kind of issue, but there are three different people.
Speaker 1: How do you know where to go? How do you
Speaker 1: know where to start.
Speaker 3: When they're in a group or as individuals?
Speaker 1: I no, no individual Like if I come to you and
Speaker 1: I'm anxious, and then Tiff comes to you and she's anxious,
Speaker 1: and then Brian comes to you and he's anxious. Right,
Speaker 1: it might be manifesting differently in each of us, and
Speaker 1: it might kind of be the same thing in inverted
Speaker 1: commas that we're experiencing. But you know, telling us all
Speaker 1: to go away and do ABC might not be the answer.
Speaker 1: So do you know, how do you know how to
Speaker 1: figure out what's going to work for Tiff, what's going
Speaker 1: to work for Craig, what's going to work for Brian?
Speaker 1: Like what's the starting point with trying to read that?
Speaker 1: You know, It's like my analogy would be, you know,
Speaker 1: a doctor doesn't give everyone the same medication even if
Speaker 1: they've got similar issues, you know, So what's that starting
Speaker 1: point for you?
Speaker 3: Well, starting point we call it like just the assessment phase,
Speaker 3: I suppose, And sometimes that's one session, sometimes sometimes it's
Speaker 3: more depending on who's in front of you, but asking
Speaker 3: a lot of questions, you know, getting that you know,
Speaker 3: permission from them to ask them, a lot of questions
Speaker 3: that might be about their their long term history, their
Speaker 3: short term history, what they've actually come in for that day.
Speaker 3: Why now, like you know, if this has been a
Speaker 3: problem for a while, why are they coming to you
Speaker 3: know today, why is it important to deal with it now?
Speaker 3: Thinks about their personality, their current environment and circumstances, things
Speaker 3: that might be obstacles to doing certain strategies and treatments,
Speaker 3: like taking kind of all of that into account, and
Speaker 3: then also just on the actual problem, assessing that in
Speaker 3: a lot of detail. So anxiety, you know, people use
Speaker 3: anxiety for lots of things, and there is there's anxiety
Speaker 3: that's normative that some people think isn't like right, And
Speaker 3: there is what we call like subclinical anxiety problems, so
Speaker 3: something that's a problem but it's not at the level
Speaker 3: of like a clinical disorder. And then there is disorders, right,
Speaker 3: we have the panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, you know,
Speaker 3: the whole range of anxiety related disorders and associated disorders
Speaker 3: like OCD and PTSD that can all be anxiety if
Speaker 3: someone comes in for that problem, So you're also assessing, like,
Speaker 3: you know, what are the actual symptoms, how are they
Speaker 3: impacting their lives? And then also what's going to give
Speaker 3: them success as soon as possible, Like what's going to
Speaker 3: give them relief as soon as possible. So a lot
Speaker 3: goes into.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 3: So what I tend to do is I have the
Speaker 3: I asked the questions that I think are the most
Speaker 3: permanent to the problem, and then I developed like a
Speaker 3: like a little brief formulation like what what do I
Speaker 3: think is going on? Why it's going on? What what
Speaker 3: are the factors that are making this person more vulnerable
Speaker 3: to this problem or maintaining the problem. And I talk
Speaker 3: to the person about this is what I'm thinking based
Speaker 3: on what you said? Does this sound right? You know,
Speaker 3: like get them to collaborate with me. Is this am
Speaker 3: I on the money? Does this sound right? And then
Speaker 3: give them like a plan based on that, so like,
Speaker 3: here's what Here are the goals that you have. Here
Speaker 3: are the things that I think could help you reach
Speaker 3: those goals. And here would be the out you know,
Speaker 3: the outcomes that we would expect, and you know, a
Speaker 3: time frame often around that as well. And then to
Speaker 3: get their input on that what seems like, you know,
Speaker 3: out of these strategies, what do you think? So giving
Speaker 3: them like structure based on like experience and evidence and
Speaker 3: what works for the problem that they're bringing in, but
Speaker 3: also giving them you know, that that empowering them to
Speaker 3: tell me like is am I accurate? If I am accurate?
Speaker 3: Are these the strategies that they're interested in doing. Why
Speaker 3: or why not? What are what's going to get in
Speaker 3: the way And then let's let's see what happens. Start
Speaker 3: with strategy one and see what happens kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I like that because I mean I love
Speaker 1: the idea of a collaborative kind of process where it's
Speaker 1: not you telling somewhat what to do. You know, it's
Speaker 1: both of you figuring out obviously with your guidance and
Speaker 1: expertise and quolls you know what might you know, Like
Speaker 1: here's what I think. How does that sound to you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And you know what's really funny about that too,
Speaker 3: is like you, you know, we're trained to go into
Speaker 3: it collaboratively, but sometimes you'll you'll get people saying, no,
Speaker 3: I just want you to tell me.
Speaker 1: What to do, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course right.
Speaker 3: And so you have to be amenable to that too,
Speaker 3: like that's what they're actually asking for. They don't want
Speaker 3: to be, you know, like having to make another decision potentially,
Speaker 3: like that might be adding more stress and anxiety. Am
Speaker 3: I going to choose the right pathway for me? Kind
Speaker 3: of thing? And so if they want you to take
Speaker 3: the reins I'm I try to be again as collaborative
Speaker 3: as possible, but if that's what they really want, I'm
Speaker 3: happy to do that as well and then review it,
Speaker 3: you know, like is this going how you want it
Speaker 3: to go? And be making positive changes? And if not,
Speaker 3: then we can tweak it again.
Speaker 1: I'm the same a bit. I say to even the
Speaker 1: people that I work with, even the exercise space, which
Speaker 1: I guess I would loosely be called an expert, I say, listen,
Speaker 1: despite all the work I've done, all the bodies I've
Speaker 1: worked with, all the programs I've written, all the assessments
Speaker 1: I've done, it's still high level guessing because I don't
Speaker 1: know how your body will respond to this stimulus and TIF.
Speaker 1: So you're not a psych neither am I. So like
Speaker 1: we zoom out, you do kind of perhaps more multi
Speaker 1: dimensional big picture where you talk to people about food
Speaker 1: and exercise and changing habits and thinking and lifestyle. Do
Speaker 1: you have a set protocol when somebody comes through the door,
Speaker 1: the metaphorical literal door, or do you just you bet
Speaker 1: Craig Harper, do you freestyle a little bit and see
Speaker 1: what happens?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is no set protocol here because I think
Speaker 2: people are so different and what they come for. I
Speaker 2: think when people land to work one on one with
Speaker 2: me lately, they've listened, They've really gotten to know me
Speaker 2: in the way I think from the podcast, which is awesome,
Speaker 2: and they're often coming with a bit of a multifaceted
Speaker 2: kind of where to now approach, like they've tried a
Speaker 2: heap of stuff and I don't know, Well, that's the
Speaker 2: way I see it. And I just think over the
Speaker 2: last few years, having those, all the conversations I have,
Speaker 2: has stopped me from trying to feel like I need
Speaker 2: to have these answers. Like I've gotten into a really
Speaker 2: a space where I really comfortable just being curious and
Speaker 2: listening and exploring and finding our way together. Whereas I, yeah,
Speaker 2: when I first started coaching more in the mindset realm
Speaker 2: than the physical because that was always a lot easier.
Speaker 2: It always worried me to be like, well, where wats
Speaker 2: the solution? Where are we taking people? And of course
Speaker 2: we don't know. They don't know. Always Sometimes where they
Speaker 2: say they want to go is a bit of a
Speaker 2: trojan horse to use one of your turns. It's like
Speaker 2: they think they want this, when really they want that.
Speaker 3: I totally agree with you.
Speaker 1: You think about even if we talk about you know,
Speaker 1: Lilian's area of expertise, which is human behavior and the
Speaker 1: mind and the brain and all of you know, the cognitive, psychological,
Speaker 1: emotional stuff. But then you draw all the branches out
Speaker 1: from that trunk, then all the things that we talk about,
Speaker 1: like well, foods can affect your brain and your mindset
Speaker 1: and your mental health and sleep and booze and hydration
Speaker 1: and lifestyle and friendships and relationships and bullshit and you know, traffic,
Speaker 1: and like there are you know, and that there are
Speaker 1: Like I talk about a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: things that I am not, i guess technically qualified to
Speaker 1: talk about. But I don't need to be a dietitian
Speaker 1: to say to Brian, hey, make cocoa pops are probably
Speaker 1: not your optimal fucking choice for breakfast champ right. You know,
Speaker 1: we don't need a five year master's degree in nutrition
Speaker 1: to say cut back on the junk food. I think
Speaker 1: that's a pretty safe piece of advice. And I think
Speaker 1: that that you know, knowing that when someone comes through
Speaker 1: to you, like their big limitation could be that they
Speaker 1: just have shitty self esteem and no self belief or
Speaker 1: for somebody, it could be they just eat twice the
Speaker 1: amount of calories they need every day, or for old mate,
Speaker 1: it could be because he or she sits in a
Speaker 1: chair twelve hours a day. So I think it's that
Speaker 1: very much. Let's do a bit of a stock take
Speaker 1: and an assessment, not just with their food or with
Speaker 1: their body, or with their mind, or with their job
Speaker 1: or you know, but let's have a let's zoom out
Speaker 1: and see what's going on. Let's see what each one
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty eight hours of a week kind of
Speaker 1: looks like for them. Tell me about a typical day
Speaker 1: for you. I've said more than a thousand times, from
Speaker 1: when you get out of bed to when you go
Speaker 1: to bed, tell me about a day. Tell me about
Speaker 1: a normal day. Tell me about work, food, conversations, situations, working,
Speaker 1: who you're around. Does that real night for you?
Speaker 3: Doc? Oh yeah, I mean that's part of what we
Speaker 3: tend to like. If I'm talking about my clinical clients,
Speaker 3: one of the main things that we do is exactly that,
Speaker 3: like self monitoring. We call it self monitoring. So like
Speaker 3: they might record, depending on what the issues are, but
Speaker 3: they often will record, you know, what do they do
Speaker 3: in a day, or it might be what if it's
Speaker 3: an emotional issue, like when does this emotion come up
Speaker 3: for you? And then write down what the situation was,
Speaker 3: what you were thinking, what your response was, and with
Speaker 3: that information, then we start seeing patterns. There might be
Speaker 3: patterns in the situation. There might be patterns in the
Speaker 3: thoughts and beliefs, There might be patterns in the way
Speaker 3: the feelings are expressed, there might be patterns in the
Speaker 3: responses to the emotional upheaval. And then we can when
Speaker 3: there's clarity around that for me and for my client,
Speaker 3: then we can start doing something about it. You know,
Speaker 3: if it's mainly a situation about the situation, it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: what can we do about can we do something about it?
Speaker 3: Sometimes you can't do something about it, so you move
Speaker 3: on to something different, right, you move on to okay, well,
Speaker 3: how can we regulate your feelings or how can we
Speaker 3: plan for these situations so that you know, the feelings
Speaker 3: don't come up so intensely, or what are your interpretations
Speaker 3: and beliefs and perspectives about this situation that might be
Speaker 3: leading to these kinds of emotional responses or behavioral responses,
Speaker 3: or can we switch how you respond and see how
Speaker 3: that works better maybe next time, and do some experiments
Speaker 3: around that. So there's so many different ways that you
Speaker 3: can do it. I mean, ultimately, I feel like we're
Speaker 3: all trying to help people do the same thing, which
Speaker 3: is create a life worth living and for people to
Speaker 3: have the balance that they want, whatever that is for them,
Speaker 3: like whatever success is for them, whatever balance is for them.
Speaker 3: And like you were saying, Tiffany, and how what you've
Speaker 3: often said, Craig, and what I always say as well,
Speaker 3: is that there's no one formula for that, right because
Speaker 3: because not everyone's version of success is the same. Not
Speaker 3: everyone's version of you know, like or tolerance even or
Speaker 3: resilience is the same, you know, So what I want
Speaker 3: to get to is may be different to what somebody
Speaker 3: else wants to get to. You have to take all
Speaker 3: of that into account. But yeah, I know, for I
Speaker 3: do some coaching as well, like I do my clinical side,
Speaker 3: and I do some like I mean, my company is
Speaker 3: called Skills for Life, so part of that is coaching
Speaker 3: as well, So Skills for Life coaching, I suppose you
Speaker 3: could call it what to call it, But it's different
Speaker 3: to clinical psychology because clinical psychology is like analogous to
Speaker 3: like go into your GP to treat like an illness
Speaker 3: for instance, Right, you're you know, we're not medical model obviously,
Speaker 3: but like we're helping treat an actual problem so that
Speaker 3: person can manage or get better basically, whereas coaching is
Speaker 3: more like how do we improve your life? There's with
Speaker 3: you know, they're there may still be a mental illness
Speaker 3: on board, but that you don't need to treat it
Speaker 3: like it's it's treated or it's managed, and you're just like, well,
Speaker 3: how do you make your life what you want it
Speaker 3: to be? Yeah, So that's how I kind of see
Speaker 3: the difference, I reckon.
Speaker 1: One of the things that not a lot of people
Speaker 1: would think about is the times when you as a coach,
Speaker 1: for you as a psychologist or coach or mayors or
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck I am, when you're going in to
Speaker 1: be with someone for now as the I don't like
Speaker 1: the term, but the expert or pseudo expert, or the
Speaker 1: leader in that relationship for an hour or the rector
Speaker 1: of operations for that hour, whatever, But when you I
Speaker 1: don't know, this is what I want to know for
Speaker 1: you too. So there's been obviously many times in my
Speaker 1: life where I've had to do a talk or a
Speaker 1: coaching session or a personal training session where I felt
Speaker 1: fucking terrible myself. Like I'm going in to help someone
Speaker 1: get their shit together mentally, emotionally, physically, practically, and I
Speaker 1: feel sad, or I feel anxious, or I feel exhausted,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to fucking do this right now.
Speaker 1: That's just I mean, I want to do it, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know in that Like I remember, I had an
Speaker 1: absis on, which is disgusting, one of my back teeth,
Speaker 1: and I had this I had to do this big
Speaker 1: gig the next day, and I had to. I had
Speaker 1: a sleepless night. I ended up going to the dentist
Speaker 1: really earlier. I had all these pain meds. I had
Speaker 1: not slept for thirty six hours. The last thing in
Speaker 1: the world old I wanted to do was stand in
Speaker 1: front of a bunch of people, be funny, be interesting.
Speaker 1: I didn't even want to fucking look at anyone. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to lie down and rock back and forth
Speaker 1: and feel sorry for myself. But it's like, no, bro,
Speaker 1: you're getting paid all this money and there's two hundred people,
Speaker 1: So turn the fuck up and be awesome, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like that that and or it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be that dramatic. It could just be in the middle
Speaker 1: of a session when you're with someone and you realize
Speaker 1: in that session you're actually worse than them, they're doing
Speaker 1: better than you, Like they're doing tiff of you, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you manage that tiff? Because I know that
Speaker 1: you're a bit of a roller coaster like me at times,
Speaker 1: and you've talked about it a lot where you want
Speaker 1: to punch the wall or something. How do you self
Speaker 1: regulate when you've got to sit down and be you know,
Speaker 1: yoda for someone.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the beauty of it is when you
Speaker 2: are so focused on listening and being with someone else,
Speaker 2: the focus is completely removed from whatever is Like sometimes
Speaker 2: I come out feeling better, not just because I've had
Speaker 2: a break from thinking about my own bullshit, but because
Speaker 2: I might feel like I've done some good or we've
Speaker 2: had a breakthrough, or they're leaving the conversation better for that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I love that. That's so true.
Speaker 1: Wow, therapy for you is giving them therapy. Yeah, that's true,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about Lilian, do you have at a moment
Speaker 1: where you're just doing it and you're not really feeling it,
Speaker 1: but you need to find your way back into it.
Speaker 3: So there's I mean there's certainly times where I've felt
Speaker 3: tired or maybe distracted by something else going on or
Speaker 3: that I need to do or something like that or
Speaker 3: what you said, the thing where like they said something
Speaker 3: and you realize they're doing it better than me, or
Speaker 3: like today, you know, like that's happened a few times
Speaker 3: with like parenting ones. You know, like you'll clients are,
Speaker 3: I mean, my clients can be and I'm sure this
Speaker 3: is representative of a lot of people like very hard
Speaker 3: on themselves, parenting mothers especially, like so hard on themselves,
Speaker 3: and they might be talking about something that they said
Speaker 3: or did with their kids and they're like just you know,
Speaker 3: judging themselves and you know crusius, you know, crucifying themselves
Speaker 3: for it. And I'm thinking, no, that's like every other day,
Speaker 3: what do you mean? So you know, like that might
Speaker 3: be like things like that, and so sometimes when things
Speaker 3: like that happen, I think it's helpful to you know,
Speaker 3: have that kind of self disclosure with your clients to normal,
Speaker 3: you know, to help them understand that what they're judging
Speaker 3: themselves for the level of judgment is unnecessary and judgment
Speaker 3: is actually just going to keep them stuck. But in
Speaker 3: terms of like, if something's going on in my own
Speaker 3: life that I think is going to distract from doing
Speaker 3: my work, psychologists actually have LIKET as part of their
Speaker 3: regulatory you know, standards or obligations is to have supervision
Speaker 3: with somebody else on a regular basis, so that those
Speaker 3: times where you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed or stuck and
Speaker 3: that might be personal or to do with a client
Speaker 3: or you know, you might or that you know they're
Speaker 3: not achieving the change and you're like, I must be
Speaker 3: doing something. Can you where am I being blocked in
Speaker 3: this situation? So we do that on a regular basis,
Speaker 3: is just part of our job, and that's super helpful
Speaker 3: and I think probably missing from a lot of other
Speaker 3: industries just that person that you always have a sounding
Speaker 3: board and that can be one person or a group
Speaker 3: of people. So that's really helpful. And then the other
Speaker 3: thing is besides what Tiffany said, cause I actually think
Speaker 3: that's really true. When you enter into your client space,
Speaker 3: I put I'm a professional in that space, and I
Speaker 3: and I become you know, that person. You know, I'm
Speaker 3: there to listen and to help, and you become immersed
Speaker 3: in that and that helps you get through, you know,
Speaker 3: in some ways, like you said, because it's so rewarding
Speaker 3: whatever is on your mind.
Speaker 1: This is going to sound Oh sorry, this is going
Speaker 1: to sound ironic. Sorry to cut you off. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you finished. But coming from the bloke who has this
Speaker 1: show and talks about all the stuff that we talk about,
Speaker 1: and this is for both of you. But we'll start
Speaker 1: with Lilian. At what point does analyzing and reanalyzing our
Speaker 1: life and our behavior and our outcomes and our intentions
Speaker 1: and our when does it go from being a good
Speaker 1: thing to maybe not such a good thing? Like I
Speaker 1: feel like we can overanalyze the fuck out of everything.
Speaker 1: It's like, and then it's it's we almost back ourselves
Speaker 1: into a corner where it's analysis paralysis, and it's like
Speaker 1: we're constantly finding fault in ourselves and everything we do.
Speaker 1: And like, I don't know, I think self help, personal development,
Speaker 1: self awareness great and then not great, then not great,
Speaker 1: Like is there any kind of signs or symptoms that
Speaker 1: maybe we're fucking overthinking stuff too? Like I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we underthink, but is there anything for either of you.
Speaker 1: We'll start with you though, Vilin like that is perhaps
Speaker 1: a symptom of this is becoming more of a negative
Speaker 1: than a positive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that. I mean the symptoms are off
Speaker 3: in anxiety and self concept. Comparison self concept, well, I
Speaker 3: mean comparison is part of that overthinking, you know, like like, yeah,
Speaker 3: self awareness is so great. You know, this is yours.
Speaker 3: I always want to talk about this with UK because
Speaker 3: it's obviously your topic. But like, self awareness is so important,
Speaker 3: but you can go overboard, Like there's anxiety is functional,
Speaker 3: but we can go overboard with anxiety, right, stress is functional,
Speaker 3: but we can go over We can go overboard with anything.
Speaker 3: Anything functional can be dysfunctional. So, like, I think it's
Speaker 3: helpful to ask yourself if you find yourself thinking a
Speaker 3: lot about something, how is this helping me?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And is this leading to me doing something about it? Like,
Speaker 3: because ruminating over something is a problem because it doesn't
Speaker 3: lead to anything. It's just leads to more thinking. And
Speaker 3: thinking doesn't solve problems. Doing something solves problems. Sometimes things
Speaker 3: don't have solutions, And that's why people get stuck in
Speaker 3: a rumination cycle because they're thinking about stuff that's happened
Speaker 3: in the past that they can't do anything about, or
Speaker 3: they're thinking about potential problems in the future that they
Speaker 3: may or may not have some you know, any control over.
Speaker 3: And so for problems that aren't solvable, I don't think
Speaker 3: people have really good skills for that, and that's why
Speaker 3: they get stuck. Yeah, but the skill and the skills
Speaker 3: are not easy skills. The skills aren't well, some of
Speaker 3: them aren't. I suppose like you can just distract yourself.
Speaker 3: That's like an easy skill, but it's not a really
Speaker 3: good solution for all the time. But the hard thing
Speaker 3: is like things like acceptance. Yeah, thing is tolerating distress, yes,
Speaker 3: you know, which is kind of an acceptance skill as well.
Speaker 3: So you know those times where we don't know and
Speaker 3: we're not going to or we want control but we
Speaker 3: don't have it, or we want to fix things but
Speaker 3: we don't have the power to do that, or we
Speaker 3: want to save a relationship but the other person doesn't
Speaker 3: want to. So you know, like those times where like
Speaker 3: or you know, like those big problems that you know,
Speaker 3: political or war or climate change where we feel like, oh,
Speaker 3: I can't do anything about that, or you know it's
Speaker 3: too big or you know, those kinds of things. I
Speaker 3: think that's what causes a lot of anxiety. The problems
Speaker 3: that we can solve. You can solve, you know, like it's.
Speaker 1: I think one of the good questions is what is
Speaker 1: the physiological consequence of this psychological obsession, Like what's happening
Speaker 1: in my body with all this rumination and this obsession. Tiff,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this jump in you with
Speaker 1: your new glasses.
Speaker 2: I think for myself, I was thinking about it as
Speaker 2: Lily was talking. I think for myself it personally, it
Speaker 2: often comes back to the ability to help much when
Speaker 2: I've tipped the scales to not being present and not
Speaker 2: being with people. I've been thinking about this this week
Speaker 2: because I'm having a week where I'm feeling it where
Speaker 2: I'm always with people and it's awesome, but I'm with
Speaker 2: people to be of service and I'm I'm very independent,
Speaker 2: so I'm often finding myself intermittently realizing that I'm not
Speaker 2: with people enough just to be present all the time.
Speaker 2: And that's when the rumination and the doing, because in
Speaker 2: those moments you feel those that kind of gap, that
Speaker 2: a level of emptiness or a level of like, oh,
Speaker 2: but what you know, And that wouldn't be everybody, but
Speaker 2: I think it'd be It would relate to a lot
Speaker 2: of people because we live in a world now where
Speaker 2: we're also independent. We're also goal oriented, career oriented and
Speaker 2: focused and busy and living our own independent lives.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, And do you reckon that ties in? Sorry?
Speaker 1: Do you reckon that ties into our underlying belief I'm
Speaker 1: not saying you too necessarily, but generally speaking, our underlying
Speaker 1: belief in our culture typically is that success is about
Speaker 1: all things that everyone can see, you know, like what
Speaker 1: we have and earn and own and what we look like.
Speaker 1: And so we're so driven to have that job or
Speaker 1: be in that position, or you know, to be able
Speaker 1: to go. What if that shit actually doesn't matter that
Speaker 1: much or maybe at all, you know, like being able
Speaker 1: to I mean, thinking about this a bit lately too,
Speaker 1: is like I sometimes feel this is gonna sound It's
Speaker 1: just the truth. I don't know. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: think about how it sounds. I feel disappointed that I
Speaker 1: feel like I've underachieved in my life. I hope people
Speaker 1: roll their eyes, but I really feel like in some
Speaker 1: ways I have underachieved and then I feel a bit
Speaker 1: sad or I feel a bit inferior or a bit whatever,
Speaker 1: and then not a lot. I feel that just sometimes,
Speaker 1: but then other times, most times I feel somewhere between
Speaker 1: pretty good and overwhelmingly grateful for how good my life
Speaker 1: is and how easy it is, and how like I
Speaker 1: live in a great place with great people, and I
Speaker 1: don't have any real problems. You know. But it's funny.
Speaker 1: You can open a door a door or in your
Speaker 1: brin and just go down to doc Hall and you're like, fuck,
Speaker 1: I'm literally making myself said, sitting at my own disk.
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know why that happens is because under stress,
Speaker 3: we do tend to go back to those core beliefs
Speaker 3: from way back then. So like, if you are feeling
Speaker 3: more overwhelmed or sad or stressed, that old belief of like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is what success is supposed to look like and
Speaker 3: I haven't done that. Or you know a lot of
Speaker 3: people that I see, like you said, they have this
Speaker 3: narrow view of success, but also this belief that you
Speaker 3: have to be productive all the time, Like if you're
Speaker 3: not productive, you're wasting your time and it's bad and wrong,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: To just isn't it. It's like a sign of.
Speaker 3: Week week as well. Yes, I hear that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so it's these internal beliefs where they come from
Speaker 3: our significant others, caregivers, society, you know, our culture, you know,
Speaker 3: people caring them about, pushing them a lot.
Speaker 1: I put up a post this morning which you may
Speaker 1: or may not have read, and it says I wrote
Speaker 1: this years ago and I wheel it out probably twice
Speaker 1: a year, and it says, stop looking for the right
Speaker 1: thing from the wrong person. So reckon. We do that
Speaker 1: a bit like we I don't know, and that I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily mean romantically, or it could be romantically. It
Speaker 1: could be a friend, that could be a colleague, it
Speaker 1: could be something at work. But I feel like sometimes
Speaker 1: there's a person and we try and make that person
Speaker 1: fit the box that we want them to be in.
Speaker 1: I've done that a fair bit in lots of what
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but there's all this internal wisdom going, no,
Speaker 1: this isn't it's not necessarily that they're a bad person.
Speaker 1: But you're just like, no, this ain't going to work,
Speaker 1: this is not a good fit. This you know that
Speaker 1: person you know that makes.
Speaker 3: Me think of like this happens a lot too, where
Speaker 3: you know people around you and you don't really agree
Speaker 3: with their beliefs and you don't really like how they've
Speaker 3: treated you. But if you ask, like, because so many
Speaker 3: people just judge themselves so harshly, I really think that's
Speaker 3: such a central thing and a lot of problems that
Speaker 3: people have is just the self judgment. And if you
Speaker 3: ask them, like, where does this judgment come from, they'll
Speaker 3: often cite that those people, those people that they don't
Speaker 3: don't like or don't agree with, or have mistreated them.
Speaker 3: So their internal voice is actually coming from a person
Speaker 3: that they don't actually agree with or like respecting.
Speaker 1: And also a person that they're aligned with.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, so it's like that that's a really
Speaker 3: good and yeah, they haven't realized that that's what's happening.
Speaker 3: And then does it actually make sense? There's no, there's
Speaker 3: no congruence between that. So where that can be helpful?
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a hard question and then, Lilyan,
Speaker 1: So the hard question is, and maybe this is not
Speaker 1: you too, but it's a lot of people, and it's
Speaker 1: I've definitely done this over my life. Why do we
Speaker 1: try to get approval from people who don't care about us,
Speaker 1: who love us or even what do you think that's about?
Speaker 1: That seeking of approval? I don't mean attention, but like,
Speaker 1: and I've told you stories of when I've done a
Speaker 1: gig to two hundred people and there's one person that
Speaker 1: looks like they hate me, one hundred and ninety nine
Speaker 1: look like they like me. All I want to do
Speaker 1: is make the one that doesn't like me like me.
Speaker 2: What do you think that's about, Tiff, Because I think
Speaker 2: that well, I think there's a part of us that
Speaker 2: recognizes that if someone doesn't like us, then they see
Speaker 2: the part of us that we actually know we don't
Speaker 2: like about us.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, they can see the bad bit that the
Speaker 1: others can't, and you automatically think that their criticism of
Speaker 1: you or dislike of you is well founded.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well that exists. If someone doesn't like me,
Speaker 2: there's a reason, And maybe there's a part of me
Speaker 2: that thinks it knows that reason because it's got beliefs
Speaker 2: about whatever.
Speaker 1: And if they don't like me, it must be me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's funny I think when you were talking before,
Speaker 2: like we live in this dopamine rich, serotonin poor life,
Speaker 2: but our conscious mind, our thinking, our logical self doesn't
Speaker 2: walk around going oh dope, mean don't mean dope, men.
Speaker 2: It just goes if feel good, do this, feel good?
Speaker 2: Behave like this, feel good? And then you wake up
Speaker 2: one day and there's no dopeman there and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: don't feel good?
Speaker 3: Why not?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Right right, yeah, Lilian? Why do we seek approval from
Speaker 1: people who actually don't like us or know us or
Speaker 1: care about us? Why does that matter to us? Like
Speaker 1: my mum will go, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't even believe it.
Speaker 3: My son says that to me other time as well.
Speaker 1: The person I love the most can tell me the
Speaker 1: best thing. I'm like, you only say that because you're
Speaker 1: my mum. Be quiet, and then I'll go and pay
Speaker 1: attention to the vicious fuck with who attacks me online.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this sense of like, I know that when
Speaker 3: I ask my son, like because I always tell him
Speaker 3: he's amazing, or my daughter, but my son doesn't believe.
Speaker 3: My daughter believes me maybe too much. My son doesn't.
Speaker 3: He's like, well, there's a sense of like we we
Speaker 3: are obligated to say that because we're their parents, so
Speaker 3: we have to say nice things about them. But really
Speaker 3: what's what's actually real is that you know we're in
Speaker 3: the best position to say things about them. I think. Look,
Speaker 3: I mean, at our core, like you know, if we
Speaker 3: go like global about it, humans like are wired to
Speaker 3: connect and belong and you know, want close, supportive relationships,
Speaker 3: positive relationships with people. So it really doesn't feel good
Speaker 3: when somebody doesn't like you, or you're not included, or
Speaker 3: you know, like you get clues whether you know it's
Speaker 3: perceived or real or non verbal or verbal, that you're
Speaker 3: not wanted. It doesn't feel good. I guess I mean
Speaker 3: that happens to me. There are people that I think, oh,
Speaker 3: I get a sense that they don't like me, and
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm like, ah, I think I
Speaker 3: put my foot in my mouth, and I can kind
Speaker 3: of like, I feel like they're being a bit judgmental
Speaker 3: based on that one incident, but I could I get
Speaker 3: why they might be like less friendly. And other times
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't care, Like I know, I'm a
Speaker 3: good person, I have good values. My intentions are always
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say always mostly always good, unless I'm like
Speaker 3: mad at you, like because you're driving badly because that
Speaker 3: happens a lot. Like yeah, in interpersonal situations, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm always open and friendly and I like people. You know,
Speaker 3: you can tell when people like people, Like I'm somebody
Speaker 3: who likes people and like wants to know lots of people.
Speaker 3: I'm interested in lots of people. So if somebody doesn't
Speaker 3: like me that, I'm like, it's a bit confusing, I
Speaker 3: think sometimes or like disconcerting, But I don't dwell on
Speaker 3: it because I feel okay as a person.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but.
Speaker 3: It doesn't That doesn't mean it feels good. Okay, it
Speaker 3: doesn't feel good. I want everybody to like me, but
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm also realistic, like that's not going
Speaker 3: to happen. We don't tell it, and I don't like
Speaker 3: everybody's not Why is why does everyone have to like me? Like?
Speaker 1: You know so well, we love having you on. It's
Speaker 1: always good to chat to you.
Speaker 3: Hopefully you guys like me.
Speaker 1: Question.
Speaker 3: I know, Craig, you didn't let me.
Speaker 1: I'm ah now money kidding. That was a great chat.
Speaker 1: That was doctor Lillian and I had a chat alien
Speaker 1: and she's gonna ask me, but we might come back
Speaker 1: and do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can do it next time. Yeah, it'll be fun.
Speaker 1: Now, Tiff, I heard you've got a podcast. What is
Speaker 1: that called? And where do people find what are you done?
Speaker 1: Like seven episodes.
Speaker 3: Now almost almost nine hundred? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What have you done?
Speaker 3: Thirty nine? More than thirty nine today? Wow?
Speaker 1: I might have my first beer when you get to
Speaker 1: a thousand.
Speaker 3: That's incredible amount.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I might go and get I might go and
Speaker 1: get pissed. That might make the news the typ news anyway.
Speaker 1: Tell people what your show is, Tiff.
Speaker 2: It's called Roll with the Punches. You can find it
Speaker 2: anywhere you're listening to this.
Speaker 1: Roll with the Punches is the name of Tiff show.
Speaker 1: It's very good. Have a listen, literally, And what's the
Speaker 1: name of your podcast?
Speaker 3: Well? I did a podcast a while ago called Life
Speaker 3: Skills for Leaders and it's about mental health at work.
Speaker 3: But it was just six episodes, like just a.
Speaker 1: And so if can people find that on a podcast platform?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find it in like like where yours
Speaker 3: are as well, you know, Apple Music or a Spotify
Speaker 3: or wherever. Yeh it's on there.
Speaker 1: Only had to do six to perfectly, I had to
Speaker 1: do six trying.
Speaker 3: No, I would love to do more podcasting. I just
Speaker 3: need to I need to fit it in. I actually
Speaker 3: really love doing podcasts, which is why I like coming
Speaker 3: on your show so much.
Speaker 1: Well, so yeah, when you're here, I always have Well,
Speaker 1: we're going to get you back, and you might. I
Speaker 1: told you to interview me, so we'll do that next
Speaker 1: Chief Doc. It's been nice. We'll say goodbye, Affair, but
Speaker 1: for the minute. Thank you both, see you soon.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Bye.