WEBVTT - #1975 Helping People To Help Themselves - Dr. Lillian Nejad 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.640 I got a team. IT'SU Project, it's doctor Lillian, it's 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.800 Doctor Tiffany, and it's the shitkicker from Moe that's right 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:12.959 to Academics, and the moccasin wearing Bogan from Little Travali. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.360 I hope this finds you. Well, it's a Monday as 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:20.920 we record. It's a two twenty pm Monday version of 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.279 a podcast. We'll start with the pugilist down at the 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.480 bottom of my screen, who's looking very academic in her 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.000 big fucking gigantic academic geek glasses. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.800 How are you My eyes are so blurry today, even 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:36.479 with these on. 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:38.920 What is that about? 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:39.239 Is that? 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.480 Do you know what? Sometimes there's a correlation between blood 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.879 pressure and blurry eyes. Oh and of course tiredness and 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.680 blurry eyes. And there's a bunch of things. But maybe 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:52.200 you just got a bit of snot in them. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.280 I don't know how old you get snot in my 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:57.080 eyes up. 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.960 Well, I don't mean snot, I just mean, you know, 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.360 like mukissy stuff. You know, that's just I'll listen to 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:10.120 gross because you neither of you would like pooh or 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:16.520 anything or or have snott le mucus. Because you both princesses. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:22.560 That's right. I'm wearing glasses too, so we're in the 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.120 glasses club, Tiffany. But mine is because of age. It 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.280 has nothing to do with stuff in my eyes. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.760 When did you when when did you hit the the 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.480 visual wall? 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.200 Well, for this, this visual wall, which is the age 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.840 related one where you can't see things close, I hit 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:47.160 that wall like really significantly, only in like the last 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.360 six to eight months. I feel like before I was 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.680 losing it, probably a few years ago, like like it 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.920 was becoming more difficult, but it wasn't that bad. But 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.200 now I go to a restaurants and I'm like, Okay, can't 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.400 read this. The lights too dim, it's too small, Like 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.200 what is your problem? Which is annoying because I hate 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.960 where I actually hate glasses because I've always had vision 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.280 issues because i couldn't see far from age seven, so 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.520 I've always had to wear glasses or contacts. And then 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.320 I decided, like five years ago, I think during COVID, 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.480 I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to like 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.440 have the laser surgery and I'm going to have like 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.840 this moment in my life where i can wake up 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.560 and see the world as it is rather than having 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.600 to wait to like put my contacts in, and so 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.400 I did and it was fine. But now this vision 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.160 issue has happened, so it's like, well, what the why 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.520 did I do that? Now I'm going to have to 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.840 wear glasses or contacts again. So it was very short lived. 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.480 But what about what about you cook Sorry? Sorry, million, 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:53.680 what about you cooks? 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.040 I had glasses for quite a while, but my eyes 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.519 saw it to take in a notable dive in the 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.960 last twelve months because now I'm finding kind of have 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:04.079 to start wearing them. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.440 I reckon forty ish is about the time for a 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.040 lot of people it is. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:10.560 I was r. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.600 Yeah. I was born with what they used to call 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.640 I don't know what the actual medical name is, but 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.280 in the old days, I was born with a lazy eye. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:21.440 Have you ever heard that term? 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:22.400 My mom's got that. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.440 Yeah, and I don't know what it's but my left 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:32.519 eye was turned like just so handsome. So instead of 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.160 it being the normal kind of you know, I don't know, 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.720 like the clocks on our hands. On a clock is 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.800 like say three point fifteen, you know, straight nine and 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.360 three straight horizontal, it was turned I don't know which way. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.040 But then when I was five, so I had corrective 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:54.000 surgery on my wonky eye. I don't know if they 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.000 do this anymore. And it was weak, like I couldn't 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.280 see shit out of it was terrible. And so they 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.080 back then was we're going to give you surgery on 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:04.640 this side, We're going to straighten that. Then we're going 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.920 to make you walk around like a fucking pirate with 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.200 a patch over a good eye. Like so I was 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.440 a five year old pirate. All I needed was a 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.560 parrot and it didn't help, and I kept I just 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:20.599 bumped into shit and it didn't it didn't improve it 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.480 or a little. And even now, yeah, my left eye 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.920 now is terrible. My right eye is pretty much awesome, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.000 but my left eye is negligible in terms of the 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:33.240 value that I get from it. 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.920 So yeah, that was the same process for my nephew 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.080 who's about twenty five now. He had the same thing 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.560 where he had to wear a patch for a period 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.200 of time when he was young, and probably other other 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.720 things as well, I think so, I do think so. 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:51.760 But it might not have been just that that helped him. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.000 Might have been like other things that I'm not I 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:59.720 don't remember that he did. But yeah, I know, what's. 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.440 Up, doc, What have you been up to? What's news? 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.720 How's the world of psychology? A paper? More broken? Less broken? 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.520 Are you healing minds and waving your bloody cognitive magic 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.359 over the population? What are you doing well? 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.960 My work with my clients is great because I love 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.039 doing it and a lot of them have don't need 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.680 me anymore, so that's good for them, which is great. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.680 So on that front great. I also took a nice 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.120 long break and I went away with my daughter for 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.320 a bit and visited my family and spent some time 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.720 in other places that I hadn't been in decades, which 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.960 was really nice. And now I'm back back on the 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:47.480 work train. And I always have a lot of balls 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.920 in the air with work. So I have my practice, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.600 and then I have the you know, containing your brain 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.680 app and then i'm you know, working on new projects. 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.840 And I did a speaking engagement a couple of weeks ago, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:04.240 which was something I don't do anymore. I used to 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.560 do much more often before COVID, but I was completely 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.919 out of practice. So that was very stressful cray because 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.640 I had to do a presentation in front of a 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:19.800 hundred people and live and normally like I could completely 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.960 do that no problem online I'm very you know, I've 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.279 always and I've done it in the past to more 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.960 than a hundred people, but I'm just completely out of practice, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.599 and so, yeah, i was over preparing and you know, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.040 all the stuff that you do when you're feeling stressed 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.599 about something. No, but it went well, it went well. 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.040 I enjoyed it. I always like it when I do it. 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:48.080 Sometimes I wonder about the balance between the level of 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:53.800 stress and time and then the satisfaction that you get 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.839 after and like, what, you know, is it worth like 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.120 is it something that I should pursue or not? And 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:01.680 then I'm like and then I have to like think 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.760 to myself, Okay, well, if I do it more, it's 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.120 going to be less stressful and I'm not going to 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.800 have to prepare as much. So the balance is going 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:08.960 to be different the next time. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:10.920 Yes, yeah, But. 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.040 Because I'm always doing so many things, I'm not sure 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.840 about which things to prioritize. You know, I think you've. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.600 Got to be really passionate about it. TIFF's kind of 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.560 opened the door on corporate speaking and public speaking, and 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.840 she's good at it and she's got vast potential. But 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.400 and we speak about this a lot, you can't be 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.680 good at the thing that you don't do much, you know, 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:37.880 And so it's like with and even speaking online, which 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.160 I know you're naturally a good communicator, right, But even 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.000 for me if I don't do one for say six 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.840 or eight weeks, which is not that often that that happens, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:52.120 but yeah, when I get back, I'm like, it takes 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.720 me a minute to find my feet. Yeah, but when 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:56.960 I bang them out, Like the last six weeks, I've 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.720 done at least one every week, and some of them 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.000 like I've got one this Friday. It's all day. It's 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.360 me on stage all day with the room full of humans, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:13.840 and it's just that it's just I mean, for me, 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.320 it's like training. It's like reps. It's like sets. It's 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.120 like you can't get strong without getting to the gym 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.800 and doing the work and doing the reps and doing 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.040 the sets and like. And even if your knowledge is 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.880 good and your technical skills are good, and you know 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.679 you're well qualified and all of that, it's not the 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.959 same as being able to stand on a stage or 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.120 whatever the situation is, being in front of you know, 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.679 twenty fifty one hundred, one thousand people and being able 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.920 to in the moment, read the room and build rapport 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.760 and build connect and understand the experience of the audience 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.280 while you're up there in real time trying to keep 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.360 your shit together, think about what you're going to say, 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:03.599 but also have enough situational and I guess social intelligence 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.920 and awareness to be able to go is this landing 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.040 or is this missing? And if it's missing, what do 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:11.880 I need to do to get it back on track? 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.600 Like what are they telling me without actually saying anything, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.280 Because the audience are always speaking to you even when 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.640 they're not speaking to you. So for me, there's that 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.760 that And again the other thing too is like what 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:30.640 works for me? Would I would not suggest for you? 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.800 You know. I did one last week at Lawn and 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.360 this lady who spoke before me. I mentioned this the 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.080 other day on the show. But she was great. But 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.840 she was very organized, very structured, very slick, very polished, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.840 very well presented, very articulate and just fucking bang on, 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:53.160 you know, and very like, very good at what she did. 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.040 But everything was very structured and organized. And then I 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.200 get up I'm like a golden retriever, but you know, 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.920 chasing its right, and it just to be able to 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.240 get up there and no, no, it's and no presentation 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.959 and no slides and just start talking and see where 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:12.760 the room's at and see where I'm going to go, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.040 which is, by the way, not the best way to 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.480 do it, but it's the best way to do it 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.120 for me. So I think about you're getting reps in, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.600 you need to figure out also what's good for you, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:30.480 Like what's the how much information, how much storytelling, how 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:36.199 much humor if any? Like Tip's got good stories, and 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.360 I think it's always good, like banging out a story 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.800 and then kind of exploring the message in the story, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.079 because once you tell a story, you've got if it's 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.280 a good story, and if you're not a shit storyteller, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.360 you've got emotional connection, right, But when you're just blurting 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.360 out data or information or theory, you don't get the 0:10:58.400 --> 0:10:59.960 same level of engagement. Generally. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.520 Yeah, it's it is helpful to tie it into something 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:08.280 relatable and I you know, it's funny the storytelling things. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.200 My dad is like the best storyteller, Like he's so 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.600 good at it, and I don't think it's filtered down. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.080 I can do like I can relate something like relate 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.160 information to something relatable and practical but not in the 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.600 form of a story. Often like it's in the form 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.600 of like, oh, you know, like you know times when 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:35.880 you do this or you know that kind of segue 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.960 or you know, way of relating a practical thing to 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:44.280 something real, because you know, I always say to people 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:50.200 like I haven't I haven't trained as a storyteller. I'm 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.360 a story listener, and that's that's what I do. That's 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.559 what I do. Yeah, and that's maybe what I'm good 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:02.200 at as well, But I don't. It's not about me, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.640 like it's so like so it's it's just a little 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.199 it's a little bit more effort for me to think 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:14.280 about how do I engage them, And it's not necessarily 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.440 going to be via It could be via a story, 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.960 for sure, but it might be via other ways of 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.080 Like for instance, with this group, I did some practical 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:27.240 exercises along, so I've always explaining different strategies we actually 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.680 did some of them together. Or I'd related to something 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.240 that I knew that they were all into sports, and 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.920 so I'd relate a lot of the things that I 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.360 said to and what an athlete might do or how 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.600 an athlete might think about something, or you know, or 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.920 just talk about it in general, we're all you know, 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.600 on the same page with that. We all have similar interests. So, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.319 like you said, there's lots of different ways to go 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.040 about something and impart information, and you don't have to 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.800 be the same as somebody else. Everyone's got their own way. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.319 And it would have been probably a really good experience 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:06.160 for that audience you're talking about to have completely two different, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.200 you know, presentations done in different ways, because it would 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.280 have suited you know, a whole range of people having 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.520 it having you know, those two different options. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.120 I think, So what about you, tif have you how 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.680 have you changed your reckon over the last five years 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.240 standing in front of groups like as, how has your 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:27.080 stuff evolved? 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.959 Well? I think obviously this year a lot because I'm 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.800 doing a course that's pushing me in to areas that 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.520 I don't normally go in terms of how I structure 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.600 the information and plan it a lot more meticulously than 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:47.040 what is my general way, And I think there's a 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:52.040 lot of really beneficial positives in that. But there's a 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.520 lot of internal pushback that I have to battle through 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:01.880 because it's uncomfortable and it's unme right, yeah, yeah. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.760 Yeah, And the pushback is good because you do have 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.000 to keep it true to yourself as well. I think 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.760 sometimes that's helpful to have that structure and like, know 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.960 what a nice structure looks like and what are the 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.640 ingredients to a good presentation, but then have that real 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.400 flexibility and personal touch to it so that it's still you. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.880 It's not cookie cutter, and it doesn't have to be 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.640 exactly the way that it's being taught. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.520 But what about communication more broadly though, for both of you. Right, 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.560 Like you sit down and you would talk about a 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.880 lot of the same issues with people, or there would 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.720 be issues or topics that you revisit if you coach people. 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.080 Lillions of psychologists different but you know, not in the 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.920 it's not that far apart. Like, let's start with you, Lylan, Like, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:55.200 how do you know if person A is depressed and 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.280 dealing with a bit of anxiety, in person B is 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.320 the same, in person SEE is the same. You know, 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.240 same kind of issue, but there are three different people. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.920 How do you know where to go? How do you 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:07.440 know where to start. 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.479 When they're in a group or as individuals? 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.920 I no, no individual Like if I come to you and 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.040 I'm anxious, and then Tiff comes to you and she's anxious, 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.280 and then Brian comes to you and he's anxious. Right, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:26.280 it might be manifesting differently in each of us, and 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.200 it might kind of be the same thing in inverted 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:34.000 commas that we're experiencing. But you know, telling us all 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.040 to go away and do ABC might not be the answer. 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.240 So do you know, how do you know how to 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.200 figure out what's going to work for Tiff, what's going 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.000 to work for Craig, what's going to work for Brian? 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.120 Like what's the starting point with trying to read that? 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.840 You know, It's like my analogy would be, you know, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.640 a doctor doesn't give everyone the same medication even if 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.080 they've got similar issues, you know, So what's that starting 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:57.680 point for you? 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.440 Well, starting point we call it like just the assessment phase, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.920 I suppose, And sometimes that's one session, sometimes sometimes it's 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.280 more depending on who's in front of you, but asking 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.120 a lot of questions, you know, getting that you know, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.600 permission from them to ask them, a lot of questions 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.480 that might be about their their long term history, their 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.560 short term history, what they've actually come in for that day. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.280 Why now, like you know, if this has been a 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.280 problem for a while, why are they coming to you 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.200 know today, why is it important to deal with it now? 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:40.240 Thinks about their personality, their current environment and circumstances, things 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:45.640 that might be obstacles to doing certain strategies and treatments, 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.080 like taking kind of all of that into account, and 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.720 then also just on the actual problem, assessing that in 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.440 a lot of detail. So anxiety, you know, people use 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.680 anxiety for lots of things, and there is there's anxiety 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:05.440 that's normative that some people think isn't like right, And 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.959 there is what we call like subclinical anxiety problems, so 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.280 something that's a problem but it's not at the level 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.840 of like a clinical disorder. And then there is disorders, right, 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:22.040 we have the panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, you know, 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:28.080 the whole range of anxiety related disorders and associated disorders 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.560 like OCD and PTSD that can all be anxiety if 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.960 someone comes in for that problem, So you're also assessing, like, 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.440 you know, what are the actual symptoms, how are they 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:44.000 impacting their lives? And then also what's going to give 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.320 them success as soon as possible, Like what's going to 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.960 give them relief as soon as possible. So a lot 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:52.600 goes into. 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:53.720 That. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.040 So what I tend to do is I have the 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.160 I asked the questions that I think are the most 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.480 permanent to the problem, and then I developed like a 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.119 like a little brief formulation like what what do I 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.560 think is going on? Why it's going on? What what 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.600 are the factors that are making this person more vulnerable 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:21.400 to this problem or maintaining the problem. And I talk 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.520 to the person about this is what I'm thinking based 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.480 on what you said? Does this sound right? You know, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.200 like get them to collaborate with me. Is this am 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.760 I on the money? Does this sound right? And then 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.840 give them like a plan based on that, so like, 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.920 here's what Here are the goals that you have. Here 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.600 are the things that I think could help you reach 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.399 those goals. And here would be the out you know, 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.960 the outcomes that we would expect, and you know, a 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.199 time frame often around that as well. And then to 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.960 get their input on that what seems like, you know, 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.560 out of these strategies, what do you think? So giving 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.919 them like structure based on like experience and evidence and 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.040 what works for the problem that they're bringing in, but 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.320 also giving them you know, that that empowering them to 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:12.640 tell me like is am I accurate? If I am accurate? 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.440 Are these the strategies that they're interested in doing. Why 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.639 or why not? What are what's going to get in 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.639 the way And then let's let's see what happens. Start 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:24.960 with strategy one and see what happens kind of thing. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.920 So yeah, I like that because I mean I love 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.280 the idea of a collaborative kind of process where it's 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.760 not you telling somewhat what to do. You know, it's 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.480 both of you figuring out obviously with your guidance and 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.560 expertise and quolls you know what might you know, Like 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.960 here's what I think. How does that sound to you? 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.000 Yeah? And you know what's really funny about that too, 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.639 is like you, you know, we're trained to go into 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:58.080 it collaboratively, but sometimes you'll you'll get people saying, no, 0:19:58.119 --> 0:19:59.080 I just want you to tell me. 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.800 What to do, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course right. 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.280 And so you have to be amenable to that too, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.320 like that's what they're actually asking for. They don't want 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:13.399 to be, you know, like having to make another decision potentially, 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.959 like that might be adding more stress and anxiety. Am 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.440 I going to choose the right pathway for me? Kind 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.720 of thing? And so if they want you to take 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.800 the reins I'm I try to be again as collaborative 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.800 as possible, but if that's what they really want, I'm 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.440 happy to do that as well and then review it, 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.879 you know, like is this going how you want it 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.439 to go? And be making positive changes? And if not, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:40.840 then we can tweak it again. 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.560 I'm the same a bit. I say to even the 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.359 people that I work with, even the exercise space, which 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.679 I guess I would loosely be called an expert, I say, listen, 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:53.439 despite all the work I've done, all the bodies I've 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:55.760 worked with, all the programs I've written, all the assessments 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.600 I've done, it's still high level guessing because I don't 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.040 know how your body will respond to this stimulus and TIF. 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.959 So you're not a psych neither am I. So like 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:12.040 we zoom out, you do kind of perhaps more multi 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.960 dimensional big picture where you talk to people about food 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:20.800 and exercise and changing habits and thinking and lifestyle. Do 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.879 you have a set protocol when somebody comes through the door, 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:28.480 the metaphorical literal door, or do you just you bet 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.920 Craig Harper, do you freestyle a little bit and see 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:31.480 what happens? 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:36.080 Yeah, there is no set protocol here because I think 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.439 people are so different and what they come for. I 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.320 think when people land to work one on one with 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:46.679 me lately, they've listened, They've really gotten to know me 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.440 in the way I think from the podcast, which is awesome, 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.040 and they're often coming with a bit of a multifaceted 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.639 kind of where to now approach, like they've tried a 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:03.240 heap of stuff and I don't know, Well, that's the 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.600 way I see it. And I just think over the 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.159 last few years, having those, all the conversations I have, 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:15.440 has stopped me from trying to feel like I need 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.040 to have these answers. Like I've gotten into a really 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.760 a space where I really comfortable just being curious and 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:30.680 listening and exploring and finding our way together. Whereas I, yeah, 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:35.919 when I first started coaching more in the mindset realm 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.760 than the physical because that was always a lot easier. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.400 It always worried me to be like, well, where wats 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.320 the solution? Where are we taking people? And of course 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.040 we don't know. They don't know. Always Sometimes where they 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.239 say they want to go is a bit of a 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.040 trojan horse to use one of your turns. It's like 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.359 they think they want this, when really they want that. 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.480 I totally agree with you. 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.919 You think about even if we talk about you know, 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.919 Lilian's area of expertise, which is human behavior and the 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.680 mind and the brain and all of you know, the cognitive, psychological, 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:16.240 emotional stuff. But then you draw all the branches out 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.520 from that trunk, then all the things that we talk about, 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.120 like well, foods can affect your brain and your mindset 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:27.320 and your mental health and sleep and booze and hydration 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:34.359 and lifestyle and friendships and relationships and bullshit and you know, traffic, 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:38.680 and like there are you know, and that there are 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:40.960 Like I talk about a lot of a lot of 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:45.159 things that I am not, i guess technically qualified to 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.840 talk about. But I don't need to be a dietitian 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.640 to say to Brian, hey, make cocoa pops are probably 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.359 not your optimal fucking choice for breakfast champ right. You know, 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.200 we don't need a five year master's degree in nutrition 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.600 to say cut back on the junk food. I think 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.800 that's a pretty safe piece of advice. And I think 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.120 that that you know, knowing that when someone comes through 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.480 to you, like their big limitation could be that they 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.719 just have shitty self esteem and no self belief or 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.359 for somebody, it could be they just eat twice the 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:20.920 amount of calories they need every day, or for old mate, 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:23.600 it could be because he or she sits in a 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.720 chair twelve hours a day. So I think it's that 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:28.880 very much. Let's do a bit of a stock take 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.199 and an assessment, not just with their food or with 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.440 their body, or with their mind, or with their job 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.560 or you know, but let's have a let's zoom out 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.320 and see what's going on. Let's see what each one 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.119 hundred and sixty eight hours of a week kind of 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.480 looks like for them. Tell me about a typical day 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.840 for you. I've said more than a thousand times, from 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:52.359 when you get out of bed to when you go 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:55.000 to bed, tell me about a day. Tell me about 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:59.760 a normal day. Tell me about work, food, conversations, situations, working, 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:02.960 who you're around. Does that real night for you? 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.800 Doc? Oh yeah, I mean that's part of what we 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.639 tend to like. If I'm talking about my clinical clients, 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.440 one of the main things that we do is exactly that, 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:20.159 like self monitoring. We call it self monitoring. So like 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:22.439 they might record, depending on what the issues are, but 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:25.440 they often will record, you know, what do they do 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:30.200 in a day, or it might be what if it's 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.520 an emotional issue, like when does this emotion come up 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.600 for you? And then write down what the situation was, 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:41.000 what you were thinking, what your response was, and with 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.520 that information, then we start seeing patterns. There might be 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:46.960 patterns in the situation. There might be patterns in the 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.120 thoughts and beliefs, There might be patterns in the way 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:54.480 the feelings are expressed, there might be patterns in the 0:25:54.560 --> 0:26:00.680 responses to the emotional upheaval. And then we can when 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:05.679 there's clarity around that for me and for my client, 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:08.680 then we can start doing something about it. You know, 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.080 if it's mainly a situation about the situation, it's like, okay, 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:15.000 what can we do about can we do something about it? 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:17.680 Sometimes you can't do something about it, so you move 0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:20.000 on to something different, right, you move on to okay, well, 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:22.200 how can we regulate your feelings or how can we 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:26.880 plan for these situations so that you know, the feelings 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:31.040 don't come up so intensely, or what are your interpretations 0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:34.040 and beliefs and perspectives about this situation that might be 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:39.399 leading to these kinds of emotional responses or behavioral responses, 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:42.560 or can we switch how you respond and see how 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:45.360 that works better maybe next time, and do some experiments 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:48.000 around that. So there's so many different ways that you 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:51.880 can do it. I mean, ultimately, I feel like we're 0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:54.359 all trying to help people do the same thing, which 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:59.040 is create a life worth living and for people to 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:02.240 have the balance that they want, whatever that is for them, 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.720 like whatever success is for them, whatever balance is for them. 0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:08.240 And like you were saying, Tiffany, and how what you've 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:10.960 often said, Craig, and what I always say as well, 0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.440 is that there's no one formula for that, right because 0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:18.080 because not everyone's version of success is the same. Not 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:22.080 everyone's version of you know, like or tolerance even or 0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:27.960 resilience is the same, you know, So what I want 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:29.919 to get to is may be different to what somebody 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:31.640 else wants to get to. You have to take all 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:35.760 of that into account. But yeah, I know, for I 0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:38.560 do some coaching as well, like I do my clinical side, 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:44.119 and I do some like I mean, my company is 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:46.600 called Skills for Life, so part of that is coaching 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:48.879 as well, So Skills for Life coaching, I suppose you 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:52.639 could call it what to call it, But it's different 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:56.359 to clinical psychology because clinical psychology is like analogous to 0:27:56.520 --> 0:28:00.640 like go into your GP to treat like an illness 0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:05.080 for instance, Right, you're you know, we're not medical model obviously, 0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:10.080 but like we're helping treat an actual problem so that 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:15.199 person can manage or get better basically, whereas coaching is 0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:18.119 more like how do we improve your life? There's with 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:22.520 you know, they're there may still be a mental illness 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:24.160 on board, but that you don't need to treat it 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:28.880 like it's it's treated or it's managed, and you're just like, well, 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:30.879 how do you make your life what you want it 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:34.480 to be? Yeah, So that's how I kind of see 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:36.439 the difference, I reckon. 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:38.960 One of the things that not a lot of people 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:44.800 would think about is the times when you as a coach, 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:47.680 for you as a psychologist or coach or mayors or 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.400 whatever the fuck I am, when you're going in to 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:54.200 be with someone for now as the I don't like 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:56.720 the term, but the expert or pseudo expert, or the 0:28:57.400 --> 0:29:00.440 leader in that relationship for an hour or the rector 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:05.480 of operations for that hour, whatever, But when you I 0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:07.880 don't know, this is what I want to know for 0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:10.720 you too. So there's been obviously many times in my 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:12.400 life where I've had to do a talk or a 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:16.200 coaching session or a personal training session where I felt 0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:20.720 fucking terrible myself. Like I'm going in to help someone 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:24.880 get their shit together mentally, emotionally, physically, practically, and I 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:30.600 feel sad, or I feel anxious, or I feel exhausted, 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.160 and I don't want to fucking do this right now. 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:36.800 That's just I mean, I want to do it, yeah, 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:41.920 you know in that Like I remember, I had an 0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:45.120 absis on, which is disgusting, one of my back teeth, 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:48.320 and I had this I had to do this big 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.200 gig the next day, and I had to. I had 0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:54.200 a sleepless night. I ended up going to the dentist 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:56.280 really earlier. I had all these pain meds. I had 0:29:56.320 --> 0:29:59.640 not slept for thirty six hours. The last thing in 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:01.880 the world old I wanted to do was stand in 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:05.040 front of a bunch of people, be funny, be interesting. 0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:07.600 I didn't even want to fucking look at anyone. I 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:09.640 just wanted to lie down and rock back and forth 0:30:09.680 --> 0:30:12.560 and feel sorry for myself. But it's like, no, bro, 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:14.920 you're getting paid all this money and there's two hundred people, 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:17.280 So turn the fuck up and be awesome, you know, 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:20.960 it's like that that and or it doesn't have to 0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.040 be that dramatic. It could just be in the middle 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.280 of a session when you're with someone and you realize 0:30:26.320 --> 0:30:30.360 in that session you're actually worse than them, they're doing 0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:35.120 better than you, Like they're doing tiff of you, Like, 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.040 how do you manage that tiff? Because I know that 0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.040 you're a bit of a roller coaster like me at times, 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.600 and you've talked about it a lot where you want 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.680 to punch the wall or something. How do you self 0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:50.120 regulate when you've got to sit down and be you know, 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:51.360 yoda for someone. 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:54.840 Well, I think the beauty of it is when you 0:30:55.280 --> 0:31:00.440 are so focused on listening and being with someone else, 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:06.440 the focus is completely removed from whatever is Like sometimes 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:09.880 I come out feeling better, not just because I've had 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:13.440 a break from thinking about my own bullshit, but because 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:17.120 I might feel like I've done some good or we've 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:20.960 had a breakthrough, or they're leaving the conversation better for that. 0:31:21.200 --> 0:31:24.760 So yeah, I love that. That's so true. 0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:29.520 Wow, therapy for you is giving them therapy. Yeah, that's true, 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:29.880 isn't it. 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:30.280 Yeah? 0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:33.280 Yeah, what about Lilian, do you have at a moment 0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:35.880 where you're just doing it and you're not really feeling it, 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:37.920 but you need to find your way back into it. 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:42.840 So there's I mean there's certainly times where I've felt 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:49.800 tired or maybe distracted by something else going on or 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.000 that I need to do or something like that or 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.560 what you said, the thing where like they said something 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.720 and you realize they're doing it better than me, or 0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:03.720 like today, you know, like that's happened a few times 0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:09.000 with like parenting ones. You know, like you'll clients are, 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.000 I mean, my clients can be and I'm sure this 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:14.160 is representative of a lot of people like very hard 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:18.920 on themselves, parenting mothers especially, like so hard on themselves, 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.320 and they might be talking about something that they said 0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:27.400 or did with their kids and they're like just you know, 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:33.000 judging themselves and you know crusius, you know, crucifying themselves 0:32:33.000 --> 0:32:35.440 for it. And I'm thinking, no, that's like every other day, 0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:40.280 what do you mean? So you know, like that might 0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.960 be like things like that, and so sometimes when things 0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:47.440 like that happen, I think it's helpful to you know, 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.600 have that kind of self disclosure with your clients to normal, 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.880 you know, to help them understand that what they're judging 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:58.320 themselves for the level of judgment is unnecessary and judgment 0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:00.520 is actually just going to keep them stuck. But in 0:33:00.600 --> 0:33:04.840 terms of like, if something's going on in my own 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:07.160 life that I think is going to distract from doing 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:12.560 my work, psychologists actually have LIKET as part of their 0:33:12.760 --> 0:33:18.960 regulatory you know, standards or obligations is to have supervision 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:23.080 with somebody else on a regular basis, so that those 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:27.120 times where you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed or stuck and 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:30.120 that might be personal or to do with a client 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:35.800 or you know, you might or that you know they're 0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:38.200 not achieving the change and you're like, I must be 0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:41.320 doing something. Can you where am I being blocked in 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:44.320 this situation? So we do that on a regular basis, 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:47.440 is just part of our job, and that's super helpful 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:52.000 and I think probably missing from a lot of other 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:56.960 industries just that person that you always have a sounding 0:33:57.000 --> 0:33:58.680 board and that can be one person or a group 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:03.600 of people. So that's really helpful. And then the other 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:06.440 thing is besides what Tiffany said, cause I actually think 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:11.720 that's really true. When you enter into your client space, 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:17.400 I put I'm a professional in that space, and I 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:21.880 and I become you know, that person. You know, I'm 0:34:22.160 --> 0:34:24.840 there to listen and to help, and you become immersed 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:28.360 in that and that helps you get through, you know, 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:31.480 in some ways, like you said, because it's so rewarding 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:33.600 whatever is on your mind. 0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:37.719 This is going to sound Oh sorry, this is going 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.719 to sound ironic. Sorry to cut you off. I'll tell 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:44.040 you finished. But coming from the bloke who has this 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:46.680 show and talks about all the stuff that we talk about, 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:48.480 and this is for both of you. But we'll start 0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:56.000 with Lilian. At what point does analyzing and reanalyzing our 0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:59.280 life and our behavior and our outcomes and our intentions 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:02.160 and our when does it go from being a good 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:05.319 thing to maybe not such a good thing? Like I 0:35:05.400 --> 0:35:08.560 feel like we can overanalyze the fuck out of everything. 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:14.080 It's like, and then it's it's we almost back ourselves 0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:19.520 into a corner where it's analysis paralysis, and it's like 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:23.919 we're constantly finding fault in ourselves and everything we do. 0:35:24.000 --> 0:35:27.880 And like, I don't know, I think self help, personal development, 0:35:28.000 --> 0:35:33.440 self awareness great and then not great, then not great, 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:37.440 Like is there any kind of signs or symptoms that 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:41.560 maybe we're fucking overthinking stuff too? Like I think sometimes 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:45.279 we underthink, but is there anything for either of you. 0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:49.560 We'll start with you though, Vilin like that is perhaps 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:53.400 a symptom of this is becoming more of a negative 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:54.120 than a positive. 0:35:55.000 --> 0:35:59.000 Yeah, I think that. I mean the symptoms are off 0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:06.880 in anxiety and self concept. Comparison self concept, well, I 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:13.120 mean comparison is part of that overthinking, you know, like like, yeah, 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:15.439 self awareness is so great. You know, this is yours. 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:17.719 I always want to talk about this with UK because 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:20.520 it's obviously your topic. But like, self awareness is so important, 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:24.719 but you can go overboard, Like there's anxiety is functional, 0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:28.040 but we can go overboard with anxiety, right, stress is functional, 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:30.600 but we can go over We can go overboard with anything. 0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:38.080 Anything functional can be dysfunctional. So, like, I think it's 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:43.440 helpful to ask yourself if you find yourself thinking a 0:36:43.480 --> 0:36:48.160 lot about something, how is this helping me? 0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:49.640 Yeah? 0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:53.480 And is this leading to me doing something about it? Like, 0:36:54.719 --> 0:37:00.680 because ruminating over something is a problem because it doesn't 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:05.840 lead to anything. It's just leads to more thinking. And 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:11.400 thinking doesn't solve problems. Doing something solves problems. Sometimes things 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:14.400 don't have solutions, And that's why people get stuck in 0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:18.320 a rumination cycle because they're thinking about stuff that's happened 0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:21.480 in the past that they can't do anything about, or 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:25.560 they're thinking about potential problems in the future that they 0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:28.200 may or may not have some you know, any control over. 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:35.279 And so for problems that aren't solvable, I don't think 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:39.359 people have really good skills for that, and that's why 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:43.200 they get stuck. Yeah, but the skill and the skills 0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:45.920 are not easy skills. The skills aren't well, some of 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:48.200 them aren't. I suppose like you can just distract yourself. 0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:51.120 That's like an easy skill, but it's not a really 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:55.239 good solution for all the time. But the hard thing 0:37:55.400 --> 0:38:04.440 is like things like acceptance. Yeah, thing is tolerating distress, yes, 0:38:04.480 --> 0:38:07.920 you know, which is kind of an acceptance skill as well. 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:11.520 So you know those times where we don't know and 0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:14.799 we're not going to or we want control but we 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:17.920 don't have it, or we want to fix things but 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:20.960 we don't have the power to do that, or we 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:24.080 want to save a relationship but the other person doesn't 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:27.920 want to. So you know, like those times where like 0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:31.799 or you know, like those big problems that you know, 0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:36.680 political or war or climate change where we feel like, oh, 0:38:37.320 --> 0:38:39.359 I can't do anything about that, or you know it's 0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:42.480 too big or you know, those kinds of things. I 0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:45.080 think that's what causes a lot of anxiety. The problems 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:50.000 that we can solve. You can solve, you know, like it's. 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:54.440 I think one of the good questions is what is 0:38:54.480 --> 0:39:00.240 the physiological consequence of this psychological obsession, Like what's happening 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:07.200 in my body with all this rumination and this obsession. Tiff, 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:10.480 what are your thoughts on this jump in you with 0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:11.480 your new glasses. 0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:17.640 I think for myself, I was thinking about it as 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:23.000 Lily was talking. I think for myself it personally, it 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:26.879 often comes back to the ability to help much when 0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:30.360 I've tipped the scales to not being present and not 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:33.600 being with people. I've been thinking about this this week 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:35.879 because I'm having a week where I'm feeling it where 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:40.960 I'm always with people and it's awesome, but I'm with 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:48.200 people to be of service and I'm I'm very independent, 0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:54.520 so I'm often finding myself intermittently realizing that I'm not 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:59.400 with people enough just to be present all the time. 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:03.839 And that's when the rumination and the doing, because in 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:08.160 those moments you feel those that kind of gap, that 0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:13.480 a level of emptiness or a level of like, oh, 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:16.480 but what you know, And that wouldn't be everybody, but 0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:18.560 I think it'd be It would relate to a lot 0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:21.040 of people because we live in a world now where 0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:27.239 we're also independent. We're also goal oriented, career oriented and 0:40:27.320 --> 0:40:31.880 focused and busy and living our own independent lives. 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:38.280 Yes, yes, yeah, And do you reckon that ties in? Sorry? 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:43.000 Do you reckon that ties into our underlying belief I'm 0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:47.440 not saying you too necessarily, but generally speaking, our underlying 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:52.480 belief in our culture typically is that success is about 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:55.560 all things that everyone can see, you know, like what 0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:58.040 we have and earn and own and what we look like. 0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:01.000 And so we're so driven to have that job or 0:41:01.120 --> 0:41:04.000 be in that position, or you know, to be able 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:06.640 to go. What if that shit actually doesn't matter that 0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:10.080 much or maybe at all, you know, like being able 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:14.399 to I mean, thinking about this a bit lately too, 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:19.680 is like I sometimes feel this is gonna sound It's 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:21.200 just the truth. I don't know. I'm not going to 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:24.719 think about how it sounds. I feel disappointed that I 0:41:24.760 --> 0:41:27.520 feel like I've underachieved in my life. I hope people 0:41:27.600 --> 0:41:30.200 roll their eyes, but I really feel like in some 0:41:30.320 --> 0:41:33.319 ways I have underachieved and then I feel a bit 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:36.960 sad or I feel a bit inferior or a bit whatever, 0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.000 and then not a lot. I feel that just sometimes, 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:44.680 but then other times, most times I feel somewhere between 0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:49.160 pretty good and overwhelmingly grateful for how good my life 0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:52.279 is and how easy it is, and how like I 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:54.680 live in a great place with great people, and I 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:58.360 don't have any real problems. You know. But it's funny. 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:00.359 You can open a door a door or in your 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.960 brin and just go down to doc Hall and you're like, fuck, 0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:06.880 I'm literally making myself said, sitting at my own disk. 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:12.320 Yeah. You know why that happens is because under stress, 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.480 we do tend to go back to those core beliefs 0:42:16.000 --> 0:42:20.440 from way back then. So like, if you are feeling 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:24.799 more overwhelmed or sad or stressed, that old belief of like, oh, 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:26.640 this is what success is supposed to look like and 0:42:26.680 --> 0:42:30.279 I haven't done that. Or you know a lot of 0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:34.080 people that I see, like you said, they have this 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:36.840 narrow view of success, but also this belief that you 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:38.680 have to be productive all the time, Like if you're 0:42:38.680 --> 0:42:47.280 not productive, you're wasting your time and it's bad and wrong, 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:47.960 you know. 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:51.920 To just isn't it. It's like a sign of. 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:57.760 Week week as well. Yes, I hear that a lot. Yeah. 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:02.120 And so it's these internal beliefs where they come from 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:12.360 our significant others, caregivers, society, you know, our culture, you know, 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:14.880 people caring them about, pushing them a lot. 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:17.719 I put up a post this morning which you may 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:21.680 or may not have read, and it says I wrote 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:23.960 this years ago and I wheel it out probably twice 0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:27.959 a year, and it says, stop looking for the right 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:32.040 thing from the wrong person. So reckon. We do that 0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:35.640 a bit like we I don't know, and that I 0:43:35.680 --> 0:43:40.160 don't necessarily mean romantically, or it could be romantically. It 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:42.080 could be a friend, that could be a colleague, it 0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:45.360 could be something at work. But I feel like sometimes 0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:48.320 there's a person and we try and make that person 0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:51.560 fit the box that we want them to be in. 0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:55.799 I've done that a fair bit in lots of what 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:59.160 And I'm like, but there's all this internal wisdom going, no, 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:02.400 this isn't it's not necessarily that they're a bad person. 0:44:02.440 --> 0:44:04.200 But you're just like, no, this ain't going to work, 0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:07.359 this is not a good fit. This you know that 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:10.160 person you know that makes. 0:44:09.880 --> 0:44:15.200 Me think of like this happens a lot too, where 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:19.800 you know people around you and you don't really agree 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.879 with their beliefs and you don't really like how they've 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:33.080 treated you. But if you ask, like, because so many 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:35.759 people just judge themselves so harshly, I really think that's 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:38.799 such a central thing and a lot of problems that 0:44:38.840 --> 0:44:41.719 people have is just the self judgment. And if you 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:44.560 ask them, like, where does this judgment come from, they'll 0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:48.600 often cite that those people, those people that they don't 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:52.880 don't like or don't agree with, or have mistreated them. 0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:57.320 So their internal voice is actually coming from a person 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:03.080 that they don't actually agree with or like respecting. 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:04.520 And also a person that they're aligned with. 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.479 Yes, that's right, so it's like that that's a really 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:13.440 good and yeah, they haven't realized that that's what's happening. 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.160 And then does it actually make sense? There's no, there's 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:21.320 no congruence between that. So where that can be helpful? 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:25.520 I'm going to ask you a hard question and then, Lilyan, 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:29.440 So the hard question is, and maybe this is not 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:31.520 you too, but it's a lot of people, and it's 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.799 I've definitely done this over my life. Why do we 0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:38.000 try to get approval from people who don't care about us, 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:41.800 who love us or even what do you think that's about? 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:46.360 That seeking of approval? I don't mean attention, but like, 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.000 and I've told you stories of when I've done a 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:51.239 gig to two hundred people and there's one person that 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:54.319 looks like they hate me, one hundred and ninety nine 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:56.520 look like they like me. All I want to do 0:45:56.640 --> 0:45:58.560 is make the one that doesn't like me like me. 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:03.919 What do you think that's about, Tiff, Because I think 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:08.120 that well, I think there's a part of us that 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:15.959 recognizes that if someone doesn't like us, then they see 0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:18.439 the part of us that we actually know we don't 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:19.359 like about us. 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:24.680 Oh wow, they can see the bad bit that the 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:28.799 others can't, and you automatically think that their criticism of 0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:30.960 you or dislike of you is well founded. 0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:34.920 Yeah, it's like, well that exists. If someone doesn't like me, 0:46:35.560 --> 0:46:38.239 there's a reason, And maybe there's a part of me 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:40.840 that thinks it knows that reason because it's got beliefs 0:46:40.880 --> 0:46:42.960 about whatever. 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:45.800 And if they don't like me, it must be me. 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:46.640 Yeah. 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.960 And it's funny I think when you were talking before, 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:55.720 like we live in this dopamine rich, serotonin poor life, 0:46:55.800 --> 0:47:00.680 but our conscious mind, our thinking, our logical self doesn't 0:47:00.680 --> 0:47:03.600 walk around going oh dope, mean don't mean dope, men. 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:05.799 It just goes if feel good, do this, feel good? 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.400 Behave like this, feel good? And then you wake up 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:12.000 one day and there's no dopeman there and you're like, oh, 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:13.000 don't feel good? 0:47:13.280 --> 0:47:13.560 Why not? 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:15.960 Yeah? 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:22.600 Right right, yeah, Lilian? Why do we seek approval from 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:24.920 people who actually don't like us or know us or 0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:28.440 care about us? Why does that matter to us? Like 0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:31.799 my mum will go, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm not. 0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:32.880 I don't even believe it. 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:36.240 My son says that to me other time as well. 0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:38.400 The person I love the most can tell me the 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:40.960 best thing. I'm like, you only say that because you're 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:43.080 my mum. Be quiet, and then I'll go and pay 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:47.040 attention to the vicious fuck with who attacks me online. 0:47:48.080 --> 0:47:50.359 Yeah, there's this sense of like, I know that when 0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:53.120 I ask my son, like because I always tell him 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:56.200 he's amazing, or my daughter, but my son doesn't believe. 0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.760 My daughter believes me maybe too much. My son doesn't. 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:03.000 He's like, well, there's a sense of like we we 0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:06.719 are obligated to say that because we're their parents, so 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:10.920 we have to say nice things about them. But really 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:17.160 what's what's actually real is that you know we're in 0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:23.600 the best position to say things about them. I think. Look, 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:25.920 I mean, at our core, like you know, if we 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:30.640 go like global about it, humans like are wired to 0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:39.200 connect and belong and you know, want close, supportive relationships, 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:44.040 positive relationships with people. So it really doesn't feel good 0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:49.000 when somebody doesn't like you, or you're not included, or 0:48:49.640 --> 0:48:52.480 you know, like you get clues whether you know it's 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:56.520 perceived or real or non verbal or verbal, that you're 0:48:56.560 --> 0:49:03.839 not wanted. It doesn't feel good. I guess I mean 0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:07.520 that happens to me. There are people that I think, oh, 0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.279 I get a sense that they don't like me, and 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:14.400 sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm like, ah, I think I 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:16.120 put my foot in my mouth, and I can kind 0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:19.200 of like, I feel like they're being a bit judgmental 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:23.000 based on that one incident, but I could I get 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:29.160 why they might be like less friendly. And other times 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:35.360 I'm like, I don't care, Like I know, I'm a 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:39.360 good person, I have good values. My intentions are always 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:46.400 I'm gonna say always mostly always good, unless I'm like 0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:51.480 mad at you, like because you're driving badly because that 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:58.000 happens a lot. Like yeah, in interpersonal situations, I'm like, 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:02.120 I'm always open and friendly and I like people. You know, 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:04.360 you can tell when people like people, Like I'm somebody 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:06.840 who likes people and like wants to know lots of people. 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.240 I'm interested in lots of people. So if somebody doesn't 0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:12.680 like me that, I'm like, it's a bit confusing, I 0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:16.759 think sometimes or like disconcerting, But I don't dwell on 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:21.600 it because I feel okay as a person. 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:23.439 Yes, yeah, but. 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:26.800 It doesn't That doesn't mean it feels good. Okay, it 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:30.440 doesn't feel good. I want everybody to like me, but 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:33.799 you know, like I'm also realistic, like that's not going 0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:35.360 to happen. We don't tell it, and I don't like 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:38.560 everybody's not Why is why does everyone have to like me? Like? 0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:44.439 You know so well, we love having you on. It's 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.279 always good to chat to you. 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:47.600 Hopefully you guys like me. 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:48.080 Question. 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:50.759 I know, Craig, you didn't let me. 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:56.560 I'm ah now money kidding. That was a great chat. 0:50:56.640 --> 0:50:59.200 That was doctor Lillian and I had a chat alien 0:50:59.200 --> 0:51:01.000 and she's gonna ask me, but we might come back 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:01.600 and do that. 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:03.719 Yeah, we can do it next time. Yeah, it'll be fun. 0:51:04.960 --> 0:51:08.000 Now, Tiff, I heard you've got a podcast. What is 0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:11.040 that called? And where do people find what are you done? 0:51:11.160 --> 0:51:12.879 Like seven episodes. 0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:16.600 Now almost almost nine hundred? Yeah? 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:17.239 What have you done? 0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:21.200 Thirty nine? More than thirty nine today? Wow? 0:51:21.680 --> 0:51:23.480 I might have my first beer when you get to 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:24.040 a thousand. 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:26.400 That's incredible amount. 0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:28.400 Yeah. I might go and get I might go and 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:34.120 get pissed. That might make the news the typ news anyway. 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:35.920 Tell people what your show is, Tiff. 0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:38.359 It's called Roll with the Punches. You can find it 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:39.920 anywhere you're listening to this. 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:44.479 Roll with the Punches is the name of Tiff show. 0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:47.880 It's very good. Have a listen, literally, And what's the 0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:49.080 name of your podcast? 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:52.720 Well? I did a podcast a while ago called Life 0:51:52.719 --> 0:51:55.920 Skills for Leaders and it's about mental health at work. 0:51:56.840 --> 0:52:01.040 But it was just six episodes, like just a. 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.480 And so if can people find that on a podcast platform? 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:03.719 Oh? 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:06.080 Yeah, you can find it in like like where yours 0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:09.000 are as well, you know, Apple Music or a Spotify 0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:10.279 or wherever. Yeh it's on there. 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:13.719 Only had to do six to perfectly, I had to 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:14.720 do six trying. 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:17.360 No, I would love to do more podcasting. I just 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:18.880 need to I need to fit it in. I actually 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:21.879 really love doing podcasts, which is why I like coming 0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:22.959 on your show so much. 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:27.840 Well, so yeah, when you're here, I always have Well, 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:30.239 we're going to get you back, and you might. I 0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:32.359 told you to interview me, so we'll do that next 0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:36.840 Chief Doc. It's been nice. We'll say goodbye, Affair, but 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.560 for the minute. Thank you both, see you soon. 0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:41.279 Thank you. 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:42.520 Bye.