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Speaker 1: I got a team. IT'SU Project, it's doctor Lillian, it's

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tiffany, and it's the shitkicker from Moe that's right

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Speaker 1: to Academics, and the moccasin wearing Bogan from Little Travali.

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Speaker 1: I hope this finds you. Well, it's a Monday as

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Speaker 1: we record. It's a two twenty pm Monday version of

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Speaker 1: a podcast. We'll start with the pugilist down at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of my screen, who's looking very academic in her

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Speaker 1: big fucking gigantic academic geek glasses.

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Speaker 2: How are you My eyes are so blurry today, even

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Speaker 2: with these on.

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Speaker 1: What is that about?

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Speaker 3: Is that?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what? Sometimes there's a correlation between blood

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Speaker 1: pressure and blurry eyes. Oh and of course tiredness and

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Speaker 1: blurry eyes. And there's a bunch of things. But maybe

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Speaker 1: you just got a bit of snot in them.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how old you get snot in my

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Speaker 2: eyes up.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't mean snot, I just mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: like mukissy stuff. You know, that's just I'll listen to

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Speaker 1: gross because you neither of you would like pooh or

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Speaker 1: anything or or have snott le mucus. Because you both princesses.

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Speaker 3: That's right. I'm wearing glasses too, so we're in the

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Speaker 3: glasses club, Tiffany. But mine is because of age. It

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Speaker 3: has nothing to do with stuff in my eyes.

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Speaker 1: When did you when when did you hit the the

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Speaker 1: visual wall?

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Speaker 3: Well, for this, this visual wall, which is the age

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Speaker 3: related one where you can't see things close, I hit

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Speaker 3: that wall like really significantly, only in like the last

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Speaker 3: six to eight months. I feel like before I was

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Speaker 3: losing it, probably a few years ago, like like it

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Speaker 3: was becoming more difficult, but it wasn't that bad. But

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Speaker 3: now I go to a restaurants and I'm like, Okay, can't

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Speaker 3: read this. The lights too dim, it's too small, Like

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Speaker 3: what is your problem? Which is annoying because I hate

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Speaker 3: where I actually hate glasses because I've always had vision

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Speaker 3: issues because i couldn't see far from age seven, so

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Speaker 3: I've always had to wear glasses or contacts. And then

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Speaker 3: I decided, like five years ago, I think during COVID,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to like

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Speaker 3: have the laser surgery and I'm going to have like

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Speaker 3: this moment in my life where i can wake up

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Speaker 3: and see the world as it is rather than having

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Speaker 3: to wait to like put my contacts in, and so

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Speaker 3: I did and it was fine. But now this vision

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Speaker 3: issue has happened, so it's like, well, what the why

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Speaker 3: did I do that? Now I'm going to have to

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Speaker 3: wear glasses or contacts again. So it was very short lived.

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Speaker 1: But what about what about you cook Sorry? Sorry, million,

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Speaker 1: what about you cooks?

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Speaker 2: I had glasses for quite a while, but my eyes

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Speaker 2: saw it to take in a notable dive in the

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Speaker 2: last twelve months because now I'm finding kind of have

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Speaker 2: to start wearing them.

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Speaker 1: I reckon forty ish is about the time for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people it is.

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Speaker 3: I was r.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was born with what they used to call

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the actual medical name is, but

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Speaker 1: in the old days, I was born with a lazy eye.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard that term?

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Speaker 3: My mom's got that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know what it's but my left

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Speaker 1: eye was turned like just so handsome. So instead of

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Speaker 1: it being the normal kind of you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like the clocks on our hands. On a clock is

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Speaker 1: like say three point fifteen, you know, straight nine and

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Speaker 1: three straight horizontal, it was turned I don't know which way.

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Speaker 1: But then when I was five, so I had corrective

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Speaker 1: surgery on my wonky eye. I don't know if they

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Speaker 1: do this anymore. And it was weak, like I couldn't

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Speaker 1: see shit out of it was terrible. And so they

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Speaker 1: back then was we're going to give you surgery on

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Speaker 1: this side, We're going to straighten that. Then we're going

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Speaker 1: to make you walk around like a fucking pirate with

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Speaker 1: a patch over a good eye. Like so I was

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Speaker 1: a five year old pirate. All I needed was a

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Speaker 1: parrot and it didn't help, and I kept I just

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Speaker 1: bumped into shit and it didn't it didn't improve it

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Speaker 1: or a little. And even now, yeah, my left eye

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Speaker 1: now is terrible. My right eye is pretty much awesome,

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Speaker 1: but my left eye is negligible in terms of the

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Speaker 1: value that I get from it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that was the same process for my nephew

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Speaker 3: who's about twenty five now. He had the same thing

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Speaker 3: where he had to wear a patch for a period

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Speaker 3: of time when he was young, and probably other other

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Speaker 3: things as well, I think so, I do think so.

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Speaker 3: But it might not have been just that that helped him.

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Speaker 3: Might have been like other things that I'm not I

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Speaker 3: don't remember that he did. But yeah, I know, what's.

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Speaker 1: Up, doc, What have you been up to? What's news?

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Speaker 1: How's the world of psychology? A paper? More broken? Less broken?

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Speaker 1: Are you healing minds and waving your bloody cognitive magic

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Speaker 1: over the population? What are you doing well?

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Speaker 3: My work with my clients is great because I love

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Speaker 3: doing it and a lot of them have don't need

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Speaker 3: me anymore, so that's good for them, which is great.

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Speaker 3: So on that front great. I also took a nice

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Speaker 3: long break and I went away with my daughter for

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Speaker 3: a bit and visited my family and spent some time

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Speaker 3: in other places that I hadn't been in decades, which

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Speaker 3: was really nice. And now I'm back back on the

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Speaker 3: work train. And I always have a lot of balls

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Speaker 3: in the air with work. So I have my practice,

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Speaker 3: and then I have the you know, containing your brain

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Speaker 3: app and then i'm you know, working on new projects.

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Speaker 3: And I did a speaking engagement a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 3: which was something I don't do anymore. I used to

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Speaker 3: do much more often before COVID, but I was completely

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Speaker 3: out of practice. So that was very stressful cray because

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Speaker 3: I had to do a presentation in front of a

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Speaker 3: hundred people and live and normally like I could completely

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Speaker 3: do that no problem online I'm very you know, I've

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Speaker 3: always and I've done it in the past to more

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Speaker 3: than a hundred people, but I'm just completely out of practice,

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Speaker 3: and so, yeah, i was over preparing and you know,

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Speaker 3: all the stuff that you do when you're feeling stressed

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Speaker 3: about something. No, but it went well, it went well.

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Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. I always like it when I do it.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I wonder about the balance between the level of

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Speaker 3: stress and time and then the satisfaction that you get

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Speaker 3: after and like, what, you know, is it worth like

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Speaker 3: is it something that I should pursue or not? And

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Speaker 3: then I'm like and then I have to like think

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Speaker 3: to myself, Okay, well, if I do it more, it's

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Speaker 3: going to be less stressful and I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: have to prepare as much. So the balance is going

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Speaker 3: to be different the next time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, But.

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Speaker 3: Because I'm always doing so many things, I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: about which things to prioritize. You know, I think you've.

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Speaker 1: Got to be really passionate about it. TIFF's kind of

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Speaker 1: opened the door on corporate speaking and public speaking, and

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Speaker 1: she's good at it and she's got vast potential. But

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Speaker 1: and we speak about this a lot, you can't be

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Speaker 1: good at the thing that you don't do much, you know,

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Speaker 1: And so it's like with and even speaking online, which

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Speaker 1: I know you're naturally a good communicator, right, But even

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Speaker 1: for me if I don't do one for say six

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Speaker 1: or eight weeks, which is not that often that that happens,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, when I get back, I'm like, it takes

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Speaker 1: me a minute to find my feet. Yeah, but when

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Speaker 1: I bang them out, Like the last six weeks, I've

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Speaker 1: done at least one every week, and some of them

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Speaker 1: like I've got one this Friday. It's all day. It's

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Speaker 1: me on stage all day with the room full of humans,

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Speaker 1: and it's just that it's just I mean, for me,

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Speaker 1: it's like training. It's like reps. It's like sets. It's

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Speaker 1: like you can't get strong without getting to the gym

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Speaker 1: and doing the work and doing the reps and doing

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Speaker 1: the sets and like. And even if your knowledge is

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Speaker 1: good and your technical skills are good, and you know

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Speaker 1: you're well qualified and all of that, it's not the

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Speaker 1: same as being able to stand on a stage or

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Speaker 1: whatever the situation is, being in front of you know,

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Speaker 1: twenty fifty one hundred, one thousand people and being able

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Speaker 1: to in the moment, read the room and build rapport

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Speaker 1: and build connect and understand the experience of the audience

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Speaker 1: while you're up there in real time trying to keep

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Speaker 1: your shit together, think about what you're going to say,

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Speaker 1: but also have enough situational and I guess social intelligence

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Speaker 1: and awareness to be able to go is this landing

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Speaker 1: or is this missing? And if it's missing, what do

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Speaker 1: I need to do to get it back on track?

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Speaker 1: Like what are they telling me without actually saying anything,

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Speaker 1: Because the audience are always speaking to you even when

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Speaker 1: they're not speaking to you. So for me, there's that

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Speaker 1: that And again the other thing too is like what

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Speaker 1: works for me? Would I would not suggest for you?

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Speaker 1: You know. I did one last week at Lawn and

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Speaker 1: this lady who spoke before me. I mentioned this the

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Speaker 1: other day on the show. But she was great. But

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Speaker 1: she was very organized, very structured, very slick, very polished,

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Speaker 1: very well presented, very articulate and just fucking bang on,

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Speaker 1: you know, and very like, very good at what she did.

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Speaker 1: But everything was very structured and organized. And then I

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Speaker 1: get up I'm like a golden retriever, but you know,

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Speaker 1: chasing its right, and it just to be able to

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Speaker 1: get up there and no, no, it's and no presentation

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Speaker 1: and no slides and just start talking and see where

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Speaker 1: the room's at and see where I'm going to go,

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Speaker 1: which is, by the way, not the best way to

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Speaker 1: do it, but it's the best way to do it

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Speaker 1: for me. So I think about you're getting reps in,

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Speaker 1: you need to figure out also what's good for you,

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Speaker 1: Like what's the how much information, how much storytelling, how

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Speaker 1: much humor if any? Like Tip's got good stories, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's always good, like banging out a story

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Speaker 1: and then kind of exploring the message in the story,

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Speaker 1: because once you tell a story, you've got if it's

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Speaker 1: a good story, and if you're not a shit storyteller,

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Speaker 1: you've got emotional connection, right, But when you're just blurting

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Speaker 1: out data or information or theory, you don't get the

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Speaker 1: same level of engagement. Generally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it is helpful to tie it into something

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Speaker 3: relatable and I you know, it's funny the storytelling things.

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Speaker 3: My dad is like the best storyteller, Like he's so

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Speaker 3: good at it, and I don't think it's filtered down.

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Speaker 3: I can do like I can relate something like relate

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Speaker 3: information to something relatable and practical but not in the

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Speaker 3: form of a story. Often like it's in the form

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Speaker 3: of like, oh, you know, like you know times when

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Speaker 3: you do this or you know that kind of segue

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Speaker 3: or you know, way of relating a practical thing to

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Speaker 3: something real, because you know, I always say to people

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Speaker 3: like I haven't I haven't trained as a storyteller. I'm

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Speaker 3: a story listener, and that's that's what I do. That's

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Speaker 3: what I do. Yeah, and that's maybe what I'm good

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Speaker 3: at as well, But I don't. It's not about me,

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Speaker 3: like it's so like so it's it's just a little

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Speaker 3: it's a little bit more effort for me to think

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Speaker 3: about how do I engage them, And it's not necessarily

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Speaker 3: going to be via It could be via a story,

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Speaker 3: for sure, but it might be via other ways of

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Speaker 3: Like for instance, with this group, I did some practical

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Speaker 3: exercises along, so I've always explaining different strategies we actually

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Speaker 3: did some of them together. Or I'd related to something

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Speaker 3: that I knew that they were all into sports, and

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Speaker 3: so I'd relate a lot of the things that I

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Speaker 3: said to and what an athlete might do or how

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Speaker 3: an athlete might think about something, or you know, or

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Speaker 3: just talk about it in general, we're all you know,

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Speaker 3: on the same page with that. We all have similar interests. So,

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Speaker 3: like you said, there's lots of different ways to go

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Speaker 3: about something and impart information, and you don't have to

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Speaker 3: be the same as somebody else. Everyone's got their own way.

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Speaker 3: And it would have been probably a really good experience

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Speaker 3: for that audience you're talking about to have completely two different,

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Speaker 3: you know, presentations done in different ways, because it would

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Speaker 3: have suited you know, a whole range of people having

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Speaker 3: it having you know, those two different options.

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Speaker 1: I think, So what about you, tif have you how

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Speaker 1: have you changed your reckon over the last five years

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Speaker 1: standing in front of groups like as, how has your

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Speaker 1: stuff evolved?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think obviously this year a lot because I'm

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Speaker 2: doing a course that's pushing me in to areas that

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Speaker 2: I don't normally go in terms of how I structure

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Speaker 2: the information and plan it a lot more meticulously than

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Speaker 2: what is my general way, And I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of really beneficial positives in that. But there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of internal pushback that I have to battle through

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Speaker 2: because it's uncomfortable and it's unme right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And the pushback is good because you do have

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Speaker 3: to keep it true to yourself as well. I think

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Speaker 3: sometimes that's helpful to have that structure and like, know

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Speaker 3: what a nice structure looks like and what are the

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Speaker 3: ingredients to a good presentation, but then have that real

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Speaker 3: flexibility and personal touch to it so that it's still you.

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Speaker 3: It's not cookie cutter, and it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: exactly the way that it's being taught.

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Speaker 1: But what about communication more broadly though, for both of you. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like you sit down and you would talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot of the same issues with people, or there would

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Speaker 1: be issues or topics that you revisit if you coach people.

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Speaker 1: Lillions of psychologists different but you know, not in the

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Speaker 1: it's not that far apart. Like, let's start with you, Lylan, Like,

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Speaker 1: how do you know if person A is depressed and

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Speaker 1: dealing with a bit of anxiety, in person B is

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Speaker 1: the same, in person SEE is the same. You know,

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Speaker 1: same kind of issue, but there are three different people.

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Speaker 1: How do you know where to go? How do you

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Speaker 1: know where to start.

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Speaker 3: When they're in a group or as individuals?

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Speaker 1: I no, no individual Like if I come to you and

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Speaker 1: I'm anxious, and then Tiff comes to you and she's anxious,

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Speaker 1: and then Brian comes to you and he's anxious. Right,

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Speaker 1: it might be manifesting differently in each of us, and

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Speaker 1: it might kind of be the same thing in inverted

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Speaker 1: commas that we're experiencing. But you know, telling us all

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Speaker 1: to go away and do ABC might not be the answer.

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Speaker 1: So do you know, how do you know how to

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Speaker 1: figure out what's going to work for Tiff, what's going

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Speaker 1: to work for Craig, what's going to work for Brian?

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Speaker 1: Like what's the starting point with trying to read that?

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Speaker 1: You know, It's like my analogy would be, you know,

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Speaker 1: a doctor doesn't give everyone the same medication even if

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Speaker 1: they've got similar issues, you know, So what's that starting

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Speaker 1: point for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, starting point we call it like just the assessment phase,

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Speaker 3: I suppose, And sometimes that's one session, sometimes sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: more depending on who's in front of you, but asking

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Speaker 3: a lot of questions, you know, getting that you know,

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Speaker 3: permission from them to ask them, a lot of questions

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Speaker 3: that might be about their their long term history, their

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Speaker 3: short term history, what they've actually come in for that day.

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Speaker 3: Why now, like you know, if this has been a

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Speaker 3: problem for a while, why are they coming to you

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Speaker 3: know today, why is it important to deal with it now?

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Speaker 3: Thinks about their personality, their current environment and circumstances, things

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Speaker 3: that might be obstacles to doing certain strategies and treatments,

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Speaker 3: like taking kind of all of that into account, and

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Speaker 3: then also just on the actual problem, assessing that in

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Speaker 3: a lot of detail. So anxiety, you know, people use

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Speaker 3: anxiety for lots of things, and there is there's anxiety

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Speaker 3: that's normative that some people think isn't like right, And

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Speaker 3: there is what we call like subclinical anxiety problems, so

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Speaker 3: something that's a problem but it's not at the level

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Speaker 3: of like a clinical disorder. And then there is disorders, right,

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Speaker 3: we have the panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, you know,

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Speaker 3: the whole range of anxiety related disorders and associated disorders

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Speaker 3: like OCD and PTSD that can all be anxiety if

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Speaker 3: someone comes in for that problem, So you're also assessing, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, what are the actual symptoms, how are they

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Speaker 3: impacting their lives? And then also what's going to give

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Speaker 3: them success as soon as possible, Like what's going to

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Speaker 3: give them relief as soon as possible. So a lot

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Speaker 3: goes into.

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Speaker 1: That.

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Speaker 3: So what I tend to do is I have the

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Speaker 3: I asked the questions that I think are the most

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Speaker 3: permanent to the problem, and then I developed like a

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Speaker 3: like a little brief formulation like what what do I

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Speaker 3: think is going on? Why it's going on? What what

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Speaker 3: are the factors that are making this person more vulnerable

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Speaker 3: to this problem or maintaining the problem. And I talk

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Speaker 3: to the person about this is what I'm thinking based

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Speaker 3: on what you said? Does this sound right? You know,

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Speaker 3: like get them to collaborate with me. Is this am

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Speaker 3: I on the money? Does this sound right? And then

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Speaker 3: give them like a plan based on that, so like,

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Speaker 3: here's what Here are the goals that you have. Here

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Speaker 3: are the things that I think could help you reach

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Speaker 3: those goals. And here would be the out you know,

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Speaker 3: the outcomes that we would expect, and you know, a

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Speaker 3: time frame often around that as well. And then to

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Speaker 3: get their input on that what seems like, you know,

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Speaker 3: out of these strategies, what do you think? So giving

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Speaker 3: them like structure based on like experience and evidence and

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Speaker 3: what works for the problem that they're bringing in, but

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Speaker 3: also giving them you know, that that empowering them to

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Speaker 3: tell me like is am I accurate? If I am accurate?

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Speaker 3: Are these the strategies that they're interested in doing. Why

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Speaker 3: or why not? What are what's going to get in

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Speaker 3: the way And then let's let's see what happens. Start

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Speaker 3: with strategy one and see what happens kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I like that because I mean I love

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Speaker 1: the idea of a collaborative kind of process where it's

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Speaker 1: not you telling somewhat what to do. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: both of you figuring out obviously with your guidance and

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Speaker 1: expertise and quolls you know what might you know, Like

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Speaker 1: here's what I think. How does that sound to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And you know what's really funny about that too,

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Speaker 3: is like you, you know, we're trained to go into

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Speaker 3: it collaboratively, but sometimes you'll you'll get people saying, no,

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Speaker 3: I just want you to tell me.

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Speaker 1: What to do, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course right.

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Speaker 3: And so you have to be amenable to that too,

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Speaker 3: like that's what they're actually asking for. They don't want

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Speaker 3: to be, you know, like having to make another decision potentially,

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Speaker 3: like that might be adding more stress and anxiety. Am

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Speaker 3: I going to choose the right pathway for me? Kind

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Speaker 3: of thing? And so if they want you to take

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Speaker 3: the reins I'm I try to be again as collaborative

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Speaker 3: as possible, but if that's what they really want, I'm

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Speaker 3: happy to do that as well and then review it,

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Speaker 3: you know, like is this going how you want it

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Speaker 3: to go? And be making positive changes? And if not,

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Speaker 3: then we can tweak it again.

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Speaker 1: I'm the same a bit. I say to even the

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Speaker 1: people that I work with, even the exercise space, which

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Speaker 1: I guess I would loosely be called an expert, I say, listen,

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Speaker 1: despite all the work I've done, all the bodies I've

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Speaker 1: worked with, all the programs I've written, all the assessments

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Speaker 1: I've done, it's still high level guessing because I don't

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Speaker 1: know how your body will respond to this stimulus and TIF.

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Speaker 1: So you're not a psych neither am I. So like

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Speaker 1: we zoom out, you do kind of perhaps more multi

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Speaker 1: dimensional big picture where you talk to people about food

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Speaker 1: and exercise and changing habits and thinking and lifestyle. Do

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Speaker 1: you have a set protocol when somebody comes through the door,

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Speaker 1: the metaphorical literal door, or do you just you bet

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Speaker 1: Craig Harper, do you freestyle a little bit and see

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Speaker 1: what happens?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is no set protocol here because I think

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Speaker 2: people are so different and what they come for. I

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Speaker 2: think when people land to work one on one with

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Speaker 2: me lately, they've listened, They've really gotten to know me

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Speaker 2: in the way I think from the podcast, which is awesome,

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Speaker 2: and they're often coming with a bit of a multifaceted

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Speaker 2: kind of where to now approach, like they've tried a

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Speaker 2: heap of stuff and I don't know, Well, that's the

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Speaker 2: way I see it. And I just think over the

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Speaker 2: last few years, having those, all the conversations I have,

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Speaker 2: has stopped me from trying to feel like I need

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Speaker 2: to have these answers. Like I've gotten into a really

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Speaker 2: a space where I really comfortable just being curious and

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Speaker 2: listening and exploring and finding our way together. Whereas I, yeah,

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Speaker 2: when I first started coaching more in the mindset realm

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Speaker 2: than the physical because that was always a lot easier.

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Speaker 2: It always worried me to be like, well, where wats

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Speaker 2: the solution? Where are we taking people? And of course

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Speaker 2: we don't know. They don't know. Always Sometimes where they

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Speaker 2: say they want to go is a bit of a

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Speaker 2: trojan horse to use one of your turns. It's like

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Speaker 2: they think they want this, when really they want that.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree with you.

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Speaker 1: You think about even if we talk about you know,

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Speaker 1: Lilian's area of expertise, which is human behavior and the

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Speaker 1: mind and the brain and all of you know, the cognitive, psychological,

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Speaker 1: emotional stuff. But then you draw all the branches out

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Speaker 1: from that trunk, then all the things that we talk about,

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Speaker 1: like well, foods can affect your brain and your mindset

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Speaker 1: and your mental health and sleep and booze and hydration

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Speaker 1: and lifestyle and friendships and relationships and bullshit and you know, traffic,

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Speaker 1: and like there are you know, and that there are

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Speaker 1: Like I talk about a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that I am not, i guess technically qualified to

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Speaker 1: talk about. But I don't need to be a dietitian

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Speaker 1: to say to Brian, hey, make cocoa pops are probably

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Speaker 1: not your optimal fucking choice for breakfast champ right. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't need a five year master's degree in nutrition

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Speaker 1: to say cut back on the junk food. I think

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty safe piece of advice. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that you know, knowing that when someone comes through

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Speaker 1: to you, like their big limitation could be that they

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Speaker 1: just have shitty self esteem and no self belief or

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Speaker 1: for somebody, it could be they just eat twice the

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Speaker 1: amount of calories they need every day, or for old mate,

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Speaker 1: it could be because he or she sits in a

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Speaker 1: chair twelve hours a day. So I think it's that

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Speaker 1: very much. Let's do a bit of a stock take

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Speaker 1: and an assessment, not just with their food or with

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Speaker 1: their body, or with their mind, or with their job

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Speaker 1: or you know, but let's have a let's zoom out

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Speaker 1: and see what's going on. Let's see what each one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty eight hours of a week kind of

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Speaker 1: looks like for them. Tell me about a typical day

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Speaker 1: for you. I've said more than a thousand times, from

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Speaker 1: when you get out of bed to when you go

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Speaker 1: to bed, tell me about a day. Tell me about

434
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: a normal day. Tell me about work, food, conversations, situations, working,

435
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: who you're around. Does that real night for you?

436
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: Doc? Oh yeah, I mean that's part of what we

437
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 3: tend to like. If I'm talking about my clinical clients,

438
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 3: one of the main things that we do is exactly that,

439
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 3: like self monitoring. We call it self monitoring. So like

440
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 3: they might record, depending on what the issues are, but

441
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: they often will record, you know, what do they do

442
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: in a day, or it might be what if it's

443
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 3: an emotional issue, like when does this emotion come up

444
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: for you? And then write down what the situation was,

445
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: what you were thinking, what your response was, and with

446
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 3: that information, then we start seeing patterns. There might be

447
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: patterns in the situation. There might be patterns in the

448
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 3: thoughts and beliefs, There might be patterns in the way

449
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: the feelings are expressed, there might be patterns in the

450
00:25:54,560 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 3: responses to the emotional upheaval. And then we can when

451
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 3: there's clarity around that for me and for my client,

452
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 3: then we can start doing something about it. You know,

453
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: if it's mainly a situation about the situation, it's like, okay,

454
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: what can we do about can we do something about it?

455
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: Sometimes you can't do something about it, so you move

456
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: on to something different, right, you move on to okay, well,

457
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 3: how can we regulate your feelings or how can we

458
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: plan for these situations so that you know, the feelings

459
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: don't come up so intensely, or what are your interpretations

460
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: and beliefs and perspectives about this situation that might be

461
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: leading to these kinds of emotional responses or behavioral responses,

462
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: or can we switch how you respond and see how

463
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 3: that works better maybe next time, and do some experiments

464
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: around that. So there's so many different ways that you

465
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: can do it. I mean, ultimately, I feel like we're

466
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 3: all trying to help people do the same thing, which

467
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 3: is create a life worth living and for people to

468
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: have the balance that they want, whatever that is for them,

469
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: like whatever success is for them, whatever balance is for them.

470
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 3: And like you were saying, Tiffany, and how what you've

471
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: often said, Craig, and what I always say as well,

472
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: is that there's no one formula for that, right because

473
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: because not everyone's version of success is the same. Not

474
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: everyone's version of you know, like or tolerance even or

475
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: resilience is the same, you know, So what I want

476
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 3: to get to is may be different to what somebody

477
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: else wants to get to. You have to take all

478
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: of that into account. But yeah, I know, for I

479
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: do some coaching as well, like I do my clinical side,

480
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 3: and I do some like I mean, my company is

481
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: called Skills for Life, so part of that is coaching

482
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 3: as well, So Skills for Life coaching, I suppose you

483
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 3: could call it what to call it, But it's different

484
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: to clinical psychology because clinical psychology is like analogous to

485
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 3: like go into your GP to treat like an illness

486
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: for instance, Right, you're you know, we're not medical model obviously,

487
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: but like we're helping treat an actual problem so that

488
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 3: person can manage or get better basically, whereas coaching is

489
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: more like how do we improve your life? There's with

490
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: you know, they're there may still be a mental illness

491
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 3: on board, but that you don't need to treat it

492
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 3: like it's it's treated or it's managed, and you're just like, well,

493
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: how do you make your life what you want it

494
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: to be? Yeah, So that's how I kind of see

495
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 3: the difference, I reckon.

496
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: One of the things that not a lot of people

497
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: would think about is the times when you as a coach,

498
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: for you as a psychologist or coach or mayors or

499
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck I am, when you're going in to

500
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: be with someone for now as the I don't like

501
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: the term, but the expert or pseudo expert, or the

502
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: leader in that relationship for an hour or the rector

503
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: of operations for that hour, whatever, But when you I

504
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: don't know, this is what I want to know for

505
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: you too. So there's been obviously many times in my

506
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: life where I've had to do a talk or a

507
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: coaching session or a personal training session where I felt

508
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: fucking terrible myself. Like I'm going in to help someone

509
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: get their shit together mentally, emotionally, physically, practically, and I

510
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: feel sad, or I feel anxious, or I feel exhausted,

511
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: and I don't want to fucking do this right now.

512
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: That's just I mean, I want to do it, yeah,

513
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: you know in that Like I remember, I had an

514
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: absis on, which is disgusting, one of my back teeth,

515
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: and I had this I had to do this big

516
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: gig the next day, and I had to. I had

517
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: a sleepless night. I ended up going to the dentist

518
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: really earlier. I had all these pain meds. I had

519
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: not slept for thirty six hours. The last thing in

520
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: the world old I wanted to do was stand in

521
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: front of a bunch of people, be funny, be interesting.

522
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: I didn't even want to fucking look at anyone. I

523
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: just wanted to lie down and rock back and forth

524
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: and feel sorry for myself. But it's like, no, bro,

525
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: you're getting paid all this money and there's two hundred people,

526
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: So turn the fuck up and be awesome, you know,

527
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: it's like that that and or it doesn't have to

528
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: be that dramatic. It could just be in the middle

529
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: of a session when you're with someone and you realize

530
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: in that session you're actually worse than them, they're doing

531
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: better than you, Like they're doing tiff of you, Like,

532
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: how do you manage that tiff? Because I know that

533
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: you're a bit of a roller coaster like me at times,

534
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: and you've talked about it a lot where you want

535
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: to punch the wall or something. How do you self

536
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: regulate when you've got to sit down and be you know,

537
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: yoda for someone.

538
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: Well, I think the beauty of it is when you

539
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: are so focused on listening and being with someone else,

540
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: the focus is completely removed from whatever is Like sometimes

541
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: I come out feeling better, not just because I've had

542
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: a break from thinking about my own bullshit, but because

543
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: I might feel like I've done some good or we've

544
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: had a breakthrough, or they're leaving the conversation better for that.

545
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, I love that. That's so true.

546
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: Wow, therapy for you is giving them therapy. Yeah, that's true,

547
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: isn't it.

548
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

549
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about Lilian, do you have at a moment

550
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: where you're just doing it and you're not really feeling it,

551
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: but you need to find your way back into it.

552
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: So there's I mean there's certainly times where I've felt

553
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: tired or maybe distracted by something else going on or

554
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: that I need to do or something like that or

555
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: what you said, the thing where like they said something

556
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: and you realize they're doing it better than me, or

557
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: like today, you know, like that's happened a few times

558
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 3: with like parenting ones. You know, like you'll clients are,

559
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: I mean, my clients can be and I'm sure this

560
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: is representative of a lot of people like very hard

561
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: on themselves, parenting mothers especially, like so hard on themselves,

562
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: and they might be talking about something that they said

563
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: or did with their kids and they're like just you know,

564
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: judging themselves and you know crusius, you know, crucifying themselves

565
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: for it. And I'm thinking, no, that's like every other day,

566
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: what do you mean? So you know, like that might

567
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 3: be like things like that, and so sometimes when things

568
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: like that happen, I think it's helpful to you know,

569
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: have that kind of self disclosure with your clients to normal,

570
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: you know, to help them understand that what they're judging

571
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: themselves for the level of judgment is unnecessary and judgment

572
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: is actually just going to keep them stuck. But in

573
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: terms of like, if something's going on in my own

574
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: life that I think is going to distract from doing

575
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: my work, psychologists actually have LIKET as part of their

576
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: regulatory you know, standards or obligations is to have supervision

577
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: with somebody else on a regular basis, so that those

578
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: times where you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed or stuck and

579
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: that might be personal or to do with a client

580
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: or you know, you might or that you know they're

581
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: not achieving the change and you're like, I must be

582
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: doing something. Can you where am I being blocked in

583
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: this situation? So we do that on a regular basis,

584
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: is just part of our job, and that's super helpful

585
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: and I think probably missing from a lot of other

586
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: industries just that person that you always have a sounding

587
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: board and that can be one person or a group

588
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: of people. So that's really helpful. And then the other

589
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: thing is besides what Tiffany said, cause I actually think

590
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: that's really true. When you enter into your client space,

591
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: I put I'm a professional in that space, and I

592
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 3: and I become you know, that person. You know, I'm

593
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 3: there to listen and to help, and you become immersed

594
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 3: in that and that helps you get through, you know,

595
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: in some ways, like you said, because it's so rewarding

596
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: whatever is on your mind.

597
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: This is going to sound Oh sorry, this is going

598
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: to sound ironic. Sorry to cut you off. I'll tell

599
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: you finished. But coming from the bloke who has this

600
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: show and talks about all the stuff that we talk about,

601
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: and this is for both of you. But we'll start

602
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: with Lilian. At what point does analyzing and reanalyzing our

603
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: life and our behavior and our outcomes and our intentions

604
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: and our when does it go from being a good

605
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: thing to maybe not such a good thing? Like I

606
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: feel like we can overanalyze the fuck out of everything.

607
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: It's like, and then it's it's we almost back ourselves

608
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: into a corner where it's analysis paralysis, and it's like

609
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 1: we're constantly finding fault in ourselves and everything we do.

610
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: And like, I don't know, I think self help, personal development,

611
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: self awareness great and then not great, then not great,

612
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: Like is there any kind of signs or symptoms that

613
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: maybe we're fucking overthinking stuff too? Like I think sometimes

614
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: we underthink, but is there anything for either of you.

615
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: We'll start with you though, Vilin like that is perhaps

616
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: a symptom of this is becoming more of a negative

617
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: than a positive.

618
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that. I mean the symptoms are off

619
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 3: in anxiety and self concept. Comparison self concept, well, I

620
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: mean comparison is part of that overthinking, you know, like like, yeah,

621
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 3: self awareness is so great. You know, this is yours.

622
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: I always want to talk about this with UK because

623
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 3: it's obviously your topic. But like, self awareness is so important,

624
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 3: but you can go overboard, Like there's anxiety is functional,

625
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: but we can go overboard with anxiety, right, stress is functional,

626
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 3: but we can go over We can go overboard with anything.

627
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 3: Anything functional can be dysfunctional. So, like, I think it's

628
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: helpful to ask yourself if you find yourself thinking a

629
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: lot about something, how is this helping me?

630
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah?

631
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: And is this leading to me doing something about it? Like,

632
00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: because ruminating over something is a problem because it doesn't

633
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: lead to anything. It's just leads to more thinking. And

634
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: thinking doesn't solve problems. Doing something solves problems. Sometimes things

635
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: don't have solutions, And that's why people get stuck in

636
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 3: a rumination cycle because they're thinking about stuff that's happened

637
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: in the past that they can't do anything about, or

638
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: they're thinking about potential problems in the future that they

639
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 3: may or may not have some you know, any control over.

640
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 3: And so for problems that aren't solvable, I don't think

641
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 3: people have really good skills for that, and that's why

642
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: they get stuck. Yeah, but the skill and the skills

643
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 3: are not easy skills. The skills aren't well, some of

644
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: them aren't. I suppose like you can just distract yourself.

645
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: That's like an easy skill, but it's not a really

646
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: good solution for all the time. But the hard thing

647
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 3: is like things like acceptance. Yeah, thing is tolerating distress, yes,

648
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: you know, which is kind of an acceptance skill as well.

649
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: So you know those times where we don't know and

650
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 3: we're not going to or we want control but we

651
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: don't have it, or we want to fix things but

652
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: we don't have the power to do that, or we

653
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: want to save a relationship but the other person doesn't

654
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: want to. So you know, like those times where like

655
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 3: or you know, like those big problems that you know,

656
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: political or war or climate change where we feel like, oh,

657
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 3: I can't do anything about that, or you know it's

658
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: too big or you know, those kinds of things. I

659
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: think that's what causes a lot of anxiety. The problems

660
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: that we can solve. You can solve, you know, like it's.

661
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: I think one of the good questions is what is

662
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:00,240
Speaker 1: the physiological consequence of this psychological obsession, Like what's happening

663
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: in my body with all this rumination and this obsession. Tiff,

664
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this jump in you with

665
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: your new glasses.

666
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: I think for myself, I was thinking about it as

667
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: Lily was talking. I think for myself it personally, it

668
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 2: often comes back to the ability to help much when

669
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: I've tipped the scales to not being present and not

670
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: being with people. I've been thinking about this this week

671
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 2: because I'm having a week where I'm feeling it where

672
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: I'm always with people and it's awesome, but I'm with

673
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: people to be of service and I'm I'm very independent,

674
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: so I'm often finding myself intermittently realizing that I'm not

675
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: with people enough just to be present all the time.

676
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: And that's when the rumination and the doing, because in

677
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: those moments you feel those that kind of gap, that

678
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: a level of emptiness or a level of like, oh,

679
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: but what you know, And that wouldn't be everybody, but

680
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: I think it'd be It would relate to a lot

681
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: of people because we live in a world now where

682
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: we're also independent. We're also goal oriented, career oriented and

683
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: focused and busy and living our own independent lives.

684
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, And do you reckon that ties in? Sorry?

685
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: Do you reckon that ties into our underlying belief I'm

686
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: not saying you too necessarily, but generally speaking, our underlying

687
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: belief in our culture typically is that success is about

688
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: all things that everyone can see, you know, like what

689
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: we have and earn and own and what we look like.

690
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: And so we're so driven to have that job or

691
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: be in that position, or you know, to be able

692
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: to go. What if that shit actually doesn't matter that

693
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: much or maybe at all, you know, like being able

694
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: to I mean, thinking about this a bit lately too,

695
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: is like I sometimes feel this is gonna sound It's

696
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: just the truth. I don't know. I'm not going to

697
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: think about how it sounds. I feel disappointed that I

698
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: feel like I've underachieved in my life. I hope people

699
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: roll their eyes, but I really feel like in some

700
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: ways I have underachieved and then I feel a bit

701
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: sad or I feel a bit inferior or a bit whatever,

702
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: and then not a lot. I feel that just sometimes,

703
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: but then other times, most times I feel somewhere between

704
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: pretty good and overwhelmingly grateful for how good my life

705
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: is and how easy it is, and how like I

706
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: live in a great place with great people, and I

707
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: don't have any real problems. You know. But it's funny.

708
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: You can open a door a door or in your

709
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: brin and just go down to doc Hall and you're like, fuck,

710
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm literally making myself said, sitting at my own disk.

711
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know why that happens is because under stress,

712
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 3: we do tend to go back to those core beliefs

713
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: from way back then. So like, if you are feeling

714
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: more overwhelmed or sad or stressed, that old belief of like, oh,

715
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: this is what success is supposed to look like and

716
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 3: I haven't done that. Or you know a lot of

717
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: people that I see, like you said, they have this

718
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: narrow view of success, but also this belief that you

719
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: have to be productive all the time, Like if you're

720
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 3: not productive, you're wasting your time and it's bad and wrong,

721
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: you know.

722
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: To just isn't it. It's like a sign of.

723
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 3: Week week as well. Yes, I hear that a lot. Yeah.

724
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: And so it's these internal beliefs where they come from

725
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 3: our significant others, caregivers, society, you know, our culture, you know,

726
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 3: people caring them about, pushing them a lot.

727
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: I put up a post this morning which you may

728
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: or may not have read, and it says I wrote

729
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: this years ago and I wheel it out probably twice

730
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 1: a year, and it says, stop looking for the right

731
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: thing from the wrong person. So reckon. We do that

732
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: a bit like we I don't know, and that I

733
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: don't necessarily mean romantically, or it could be romantically. It

734
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: could be a friend, that could be a colleague, it

735
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: could be something at work. But I feel like sometimes

736
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: there's a person and we try and make that person

737
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: fit the box that we want them to be in.

738
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: I've done that a fair bit in lots of what

739
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but there's all this internal wisdom going, no,

740
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: this isn't it's not necessarily that they're a bad person.

741
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: But you're just like, no, this ain't going to work,

742
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: this is not a good fit. This you know that

743
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: person you know that makes.

744
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: Me think of like this happens a lot too, where

745
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 3: you know people around you and you don't really agree

746
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 3: with their beliefs and you don't really like how they've

747
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 3: treated you. But if you ask, like, because so many

748
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: people just judge themselves so harshly, I really think that's

749
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: such a central thing and a lot of problems that

750
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 3: people have is just the self judgment. And if you

751
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 3: ask them, like, where does this judgment come from, they'll

752
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: often cite that those people, those people that they don't

753
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: don't like or don't agree with, or have mistreated them.

754
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 3: So their internal voice is actually coming from a person

755
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: that they don't actually agree with or like respecting.

756
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: And also a person that they're aligned with.

757
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, so it's like that that's a really

758
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 3: good and yeah, they haven't realized that that's what's happening.

759
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: And then does it actually make sense? There's no, there's

760
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 3: no congruence between that. So where that can be helpful?

761
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a hard question and then, Lilyan,

762
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: So the hard question is, and maybe this is not

763
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: you too, but it's a lot of people, and it's

764
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: I've definitely done this over my life. Why do we

765
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: try to get approval from people who don't care about us,

766
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: who love us or even what do you think that's about?

767
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: That seeking of approval? I don't mean attention, but like,

768
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: and I've told you stories of when I've done a

769
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: gig to two hundred people and there's one person that

770
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: looks like they hate me, one hundred and ninety nine

771
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: look like they like me. All I want to do

772
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: is make the one that doesn't like me like me.

773
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 2: What do you think that's about, Tiff, Because I think

774
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: that well, I think there's a part of us that

775
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 2: recognizes that if someone doesn't like us, then they see

776
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 2: the part of us that we actually know we don't

777
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: like about us.

778
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, they can see the bad bit that the

779
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: others can't, and you automatically think that their criticism of

780
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: you or dislike of you is well founded.

781
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well that exists. If someone doesn't like me,

782
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: there's a reason, And maybe there's a part of me

783
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: that thinks it knows that reason because it's got beliefs

784
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: about whatever.

785
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: And if they don't like me, it must be me.

786
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

787
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: And it's funny I think when you were talking before,

788
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 2: like we live in this dopamine rich, serotonin poor life,

789
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: but our conscious mind, our thinking, our logical self doesn't

790
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: walk around going oh dope, mean don't mean dope, men.

791
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: It just goes if feel good, do this, feel good?

792
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: Behave like this, feel good? And then you wake up

793
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: one day and there's no dopeman there and you're like, oh,

794
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: don't feel good?

795
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 3: Why not?

796
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

797
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: Right right, yeah, Lilian? Why do we seek approval from

798
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: people who actually don't like us or know us or

799
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: care about us? Why does that matter to us? Like

800
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: my mum will go, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm not.

801
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: I don't even believe it.

802
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 3: My son says that to me other time as well.

803
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: The person I love the most can tell me the

804
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: best thing. I'm like, you only say that because you're

805
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: my mum. Be quiet, and then I'll go and pay

806
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: attention to the vicious fuck with who attacks me online.

807
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this sense of like, I know that when

808
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: I ask my son, like because I always tell him

809
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: he's amazing, or my daughter, but my son doesn't believe.

810
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 3: My daughter believes me maybe too much. My son doesn't.

811
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 3: He's like, well, there's a sense of like we we

812
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 3: are obligated to say that because we're their parents, so

813
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: we have to say nice things about them. But really

814
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: what's what's actually real is that you know we're in

815
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: the best position to say things about them. I think. Look,

816
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: I mean, at our core, like you know, if we

817
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: go like global about it, humans like are wired to

818
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: connect and belong and you know, want close, supportive relationships,

819
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 3: positive relationships with people. So it really doesn't feel good

820
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 3: when somebody doesn't like you, or you're not included, or

821
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: you know, like you get clues whether you know it's

822
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: perceived or real or non verbal or verbal, that you're

823
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 3: not wanted. It doesn't feel good. I guess I mean

824
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: that happens to me. There are people that I think, oh,

825
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: I get a sense that they don't like me, and

826
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm like, ah, I think I

827
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 3: put my foot in my mouth, and I can kind

828
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 3: of like, I feel like they're being a bit judgmental

829
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: based on that one incident, but I could I get

830
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 3: why they might be like less friendly. And other times

831
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't care, Like I know, I'm a

832
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 3: good person, I have good values. My intentions are always

833
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say always mostly always good, unless I'm like

834
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: mad at you, like because you're driving badly because that

835
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: happens a lot. Like yeah, in interpersonal situations, I'm like,

836
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 3: I'm always open and friendly and I like people. You know,

837
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 3: you can tell when people like people, Like I'm somebody

838
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 3: who likes people and like wants to know lots of people.

839
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 3: I'm interested in lots of people. So if somebody doesn't

840
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 3: like me that, I'm like, it's a bit confusing, I

841
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 3: think sometimes or like disconcerting, But I don't dwell on

842
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: it because I feel okay as a person.

843
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but.

844
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 3: It doesn't That doesn't mean it feels good. Okay, it

845
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 3: doesn't feel good. I want everybody to like me, but

846
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm also realistic, like that's not going

847
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: to happen. We don't tell it, and I don't like

848
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 3: everybody's not Why is why does everyone have to like me? Like?

849
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: You know so well, we love having you on. It's

850
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 1: always good to chat to you.

851
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: Hopefully you guys like me.

852
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: Question.

853
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: I know, Craig, you didn't let me.

854
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: I'm ah now money kidding. That was a great chat.

855
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: That was doctor Lillian and I had a chat alien

856
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: and she's gonna ask me, but we might come back

857
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: and do that.

858
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can do it next time. Yeah, it'll be fun.

859
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: Now, Tiff, I heard you've got a podcast. What is

860
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: that called? And where do people find what are you done?

861
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: Like seven episodes.

862
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: Now almost almost nine hundred? Yeah?

863
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: What have you done?

864
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 3: Thirty nine? More than thirty nine today? Wow?

865
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: I might have my first beer when you get to

866
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: a thousand.

867
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 3: That's incredible amount.

868
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. I might go and get I might go and

869
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: get pissed. That might make the news the typ news anyway.

870
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: Tell people what your show is, Tiff.

871
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 2: It's called Roll with the Punches. You can find it

872
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: anywhere you're listening to this.

873
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 1: Roll with the Punches is the name of Tiff show.

874
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: It's very good. Have a listen, literally, And what's the

875
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: name of your podcast?

876
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 3: Well? I did a podcast a while ago called Life

877
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: Skills for Leaders and it's about mental health at work.

878
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 3: But it was just six episodes, like just a.

879
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: And so if can people find that on a podcast platform?

880
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 2: Oh?

881
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find it in like like where yours

882
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: are as well, you know, Apple Music or a Spotify

883
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 3: or wherever. Yeh it's on there.

884
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: Only had to do six to perfectly, I had to

885
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 1: do six trying.

886
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 3: No, I would love to do more podcasting. I just

887
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 3: need to I need to fit it in. I actually

888
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 3: really love doing podcasts, which is why I like coming

889
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,959
Speaker 3: on your show so much.

890
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Well, so yeah, when you're here, I always have Well,

891
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: we're going to get you back, and you might. I

892
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: told you to interview me, so we'll do that next

893
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: Chief Doc. It's been nice. We'll say goodbye, Affair, but

894
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: for the minute. Thank you both, see you soon.

895
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: Thank you.

896
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 3: Bye.