WEBVTT - Paul Murray Live | 3 September 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:08.080 This is Paul Murray Live. Thank you, Shari. Happy Thursday. 0:00:08.140 --> 0:00:09.799 Massive week for our mate, by the way. Next week, 0:00:09.850 --> 0:00:13.289 of course, her book comes out. We will gladly be 0:00:13.310 --> 0:00:15.310 there at the big launch, but we'll get right behind that. 0:00:15.350 --> 0:00:17.829 Of course, remember, the extract of which is going to 0:00:17.910 --> 0:00:20.010 be in the Weekend Australian this weekend. 0:00:20.110 --> 0:00:20.390 All right? 0:00:20.450 --> 0:00:22.189 All the best to Shari. An awful lot of work. 0:00:22.329 --> 0:00:25.750 Literally no summer and not much downtime at all this year. 0:00:25.770 --> 0:00:27.990 She's been going at 110%. We love her. All right, 0:00:28.050 --> 0:00:31.110 let's get straight into it. the crime of today, because 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.100 it was one of those days where, yes, you know 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.360 what's been happening in Sydney, we spoke about it all week, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.620 where we, of course, had a fatal shooting of mistaken 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:45.220 identity that took place on Tuesday. Then there was the 0:00:45.260 --> 0:00:47.160 claims of things getting out of control because there was 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.860 another fatal shooting in Sydney on Wednesday. But, of course, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:54.740 the police minister says, there's nothing to see here, no, 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.680 it is not out of control, and how dare you suggest... 0:00:58.190 --> 0:01:02.590 that when two innocents are killed, that there is anything 0:01:02.750 --> 0:01:05.140 out of the normal in the state of New South Wales. 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.520 This is gaslighting at its worst. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.000 I do not accept that this is out of control because, 0:01:13.500 --> 0:01:16.500 as I said, we will not surrender our streets to 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:17.660 organised crime gangs. 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.589 Not now, not ever. The point and the problem is, 0:01:21.740 --> 0:01:24.620 and there is no more pro-police show than this one. 0:01:24.620 --> 0:01:26.790 There is no more pro-police guy than me, right? This 0:01:26.830 --> 0:01:31.209 is not a conversation... about the police. But the presentation 0:01:31.250 --> 0:01:34.250 of nothing to see here is just rubbish. If two 0:01:34.350 --> 0:01:38.230 innocents have been killed in one week, in one week, 0:01:39.069 --> 0:01:41.730 then while you may win the war, you're losing the 0:01:41.910 --> 0:01:47.110 battle right now. Because there are people who live amongst 0:01:47.190 --> 0:01:50.260 us in every major city who are just not afraid 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.100 of the consequences. They're not afraid of the consequences because either, A, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.880 they don't really fear jail, because they might know some 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.180 people in there, And they are not as scared of 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.040 it as you and I who know anyone in jail. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.330 Or they think that they are sufficiently protected by the 0:02:05.670 --> 0:02:07.750 criminal networks of which they sit in. Or they think 0:02:07.790 --> 0:02:10.330 there is a limit to the law and that the 0:02:10.370 --> 0:02:13.740 law has to pull up because they won't go as 0:02:13.780 --> 0:02:16.940 far as the criminal does. That's clearly what's happening here 0:02:17.500 --> 0:02:20.740 and it's wrong. Now, does this mean because there have 0:02:20.780 --> 0:02:23.380 been these back-to-back shootings in Sydney that every single person 0:02:23.419 --> 0:02:25.400 living in Sydney or right around the country should be 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.119 nervous about what's going to be happening in the middle 0:02:27.139 --> 0:02:28.870 of the night? No, of course not. No-one's going to 0:02:28.889 --> 0:02:34.350 be silly about that. But the idea, we're not losing... 0:02:34.510 --> 0:02:37.330 There's no problems here, when obviously there's a problem. Can 0:02:37.370 --> 0:02:40.630 I suggest to the police minister, stop being patronising. I'm 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:42.880 sick of these politicians that when they get into government, 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:45.780 they just pretend nothing to see here and they eventually 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.609 think they can wait every problem out. The reality here 0:02:49.650 --> 0:02:52.630 is that, yes, this is a battle between those who 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.139 enforce the law and those who seek and do break it. So, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:57.960 of course, we back in the people whose job it 0:02:58.020 --> 0:02:59.400 is to get on top of it, and that is 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.920 the police. The government's job is to make sure that 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.579 they have the resources, the powers and the support. But 0:03:06.620 --> 0:03:09.589 pretending there's not a problem is not a solution to 0:03:09.630 --> 0:03:12.130 a problem, hence why the opposition gets a free kick 0:03:12.410 --> 0:03:12.790 like this. 0:03:13.889 --> 0:03:14.670 People of Sydney. 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.320 are right to be terrified and they're right to feel 0:03:17.340 --> 0:03:20.079 like they've been let down by their government, a government 0:03:20.139 --> 0:03:23.940 that has lost control of organised crime on our streets. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.380 Why am I talking about such localised crime at the 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.239 start of the show? Because as a follow-up to last 0:03:29.300 --> 0:03:31.100 night's show, if you were watching, we had a conversation 0:03:31.139 --> 0:03:34.930 about the efforts we tried to go to yesterday to 0:03:34.970 --> 0:03:38.410 try to work out, is there a database somewhere of 0:03:38.430 --> 0:03:42.310 the number of crimes that involve firearms in New South Wales? 0:03:42.990 --> 0:03:45.390 Because that's where this stuff is happening. where we can 0:03:45.450 --> 0:03:47.770 tell you how many crimes involving a gun, whether the 0:03:47.790 --> 0:03:51.390 gun was legal or illegal. We showed you last night 0:03:51.410 --> 0:03:53.440 that the response from the Bureau of Crime Statistics was, 0:03:53.910 --> 0:03:57.980 we don't have visibility on that data. The police say, 0:03:58.260 --> 0:04:00.940 get in touch with the Bureau of Crime Statistics or 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.660 fill out essentially a Freedom of Information request. Well, a 0:04:06.660 --> 0:04:08.380 friend of mine for a very long time, we've worked 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.270 together in and around the radio scene for a very 0:04:12.330 --> 0:04:15.510 long time, is Clinton Maynard. And he followed up on 0:04:15.530 --> 0:04:19.620 this issue directly with the Commissioner of Police in New 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.700 South Wales on his 2GB drive program, which is on 0:04:22.820 --> 0:04:24.310 every afternoon, from three. 0:04:25.930 --> 0:04:28.510 Yes, we are, Clinton. So, obviously, Boxar record a range 0:04:28.529 --> 0:04:32.539 of criteria. things like how many offences are committed with firearms, 0:04:32.580 --> 0:04:36.140 whether they're regulatory offences, safe storage, but also whether an 0:04:36.180 --> 0:04:38.400 object stolen is a firearm. But within the New South 0:04:38.420 --> 0:04:42.950 Wales Police, firearms that are stolen undergo ballistic examination to 0:04:42.990 --> 0:04:45.990 identify their origin, whether they are legal or illegal. So 0:04:46.029 --> 0:04:48.730 we certainly take that as part of our role. 0:04:49.670 --> 0:04:52.970 OK, so we now work out what we hoped to 0:04:53.010 --> 0:04:55.900 be the case... is that, yes, they do work out 0:04:55.940 --> 0:04:58.080 whether it's legal or illegal. Well, there are only two 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.820 places in New South Wales where that information is available. 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.059 One with the Bureau of Crime Statistics. They say, sorry, 0:05:04.100 --> 0:05:06.380 we can't give you that information because we have no 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.380 visibility of it. And the police who say, go and 0:05:09.430 --> 0:05:11.310 see the Bureau of Crime Statistics. Well, we've just heard 0:05:11.330 --> 0:05:14.610 the boss of the police saying, we do it. So 0:05:14.650 --> 0:05:17.380 guess what? Our homework is for next week. to follow 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.560 up directly with the police commissioner for the information or 0:05:20.620 --> 0:05:23.820 to use that quote from the police commissioner to again 0:05:23.860 --> 0:05:25.840 go back through the police system. This is not a 0:05:25.860 --> 0:05:28.440 criticism of the people who work for the media units. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.570 They are the interface between the bureaucracy and the media. 0:05:31.910 --> 0:05:34.850 They are always very quick and very responsive, so I'm 0:05:34.890 --> 0:05:38.070 not dunking on them, but let's work it out. Now 0:05:38.110 --> 0:05:41.230 that we know there is a list, let's see it. 0:05:41.810 --> 0:05:45.890 Let's work it out. Let's know whether our presumption that 0:05:45.930 --> 0:05:48.469 most of the crime, including the couple that I mentioned before, 0:05:48.770 --> 0:05:52.840 is being done with illegal guns rather than registered firearms. Because, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:54.480 of course, as we know, when it came to Bondi, 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.020 that was registered firearms. So there's a picture here to 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.900 be discussed. And as for whether this is getting out 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.640 of control or not, Mark Morrie is an excellent, excellent... 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.570 in Sydney than Mark Murray writing for The Daily Telegraph. 0:06:10.589 --> 0:06:12.570 He was on with Shari and this is how he 0:06:12.610 --> 0:06:15.929 puts it. And remember, his full-time job is to report 0:06:15.990 --> 0:06:18.050 on crime and to do his best to get his 0:06:18.070 --> 0:06:20.050 head around the type of people who are committing it. 0:06:20.430 --> 0:06:23.469 What does he think about what's happening right now in Sydney? 0:06:23.490 --> 0:06:28.169 This is probably the sixth or seventh fatality relating to 0:06:28.210 --> 0:06:31.010 the gang wars of the last couple of years where 0:06:31.070 --> 0:06:34.600 innocent people have been killed. There have been scores, if 0:06:34.900 --> 0:06:37.650 not dozens, of other homes shot up. which have been 0:06:37.670 --> 0:06:40.599 the wrong addresses. They've got them wrong. They've kidnapped the 0:06:40.630 --> 0:06:41.280 wrong people. 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.659 It is really this generation of young crook that's out 0:06:46.700 --> 0:06:54.320 there is terribly underestimated the sort of dangers. They're wreaking 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.430 havoc right across the Sydney community now. 0:06:57.810 --> 0:07:00.390 To a more national picture when it comes to crime, 0:07:01.830 --> 0:07:06.580 my view, about how this issue should always be discussed 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.260 is through the prism of the victim of crime. I 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.300 do not care about the reason why it is committed 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:19.440 and the consequences that of course the responsibility of the 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.760 legal process. But I always think about if you are 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.340 the victim of a crime, particularly a violent one, you'll 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.760 never forget it. I mean, there are people who I've 0:07:29.780 --> 0:07:33.050 met all over the country who'll tell me a story 0:07:33.070 --> 0:07:35.230 about something that happened to them last week, last month, 0:07:35.230 --> 0:07:39.290 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Remember 0:07:39.310 --> 0:07:40.770 we went to Toowoomba and had a look at what 0:07:40.810 --> 0:07:44.180 was happening there when it came to regional crime? Because 0:07:44.260 --> 0:07:46.580 victims are the ones who end up with a version 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.140 of a life sentence because their sense of how society 0:07:50.180 --> 0:07:52.720 is supposed to work is fundamentally broken. And if you've 0:07:52.780 --> 0:07:55.020 ever had your house broken into, and I really hope 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.380 it never happens to you, but you remember... that once 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.000 you've had the stranger in the house or the stranger rifling, 0:08:00.460 --> 0:08:03.360 your sense of safety in your own home has completely 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.810 changed forever. So it is remarkable to me that when 0:08:07.820 --> 0:08:12.510 there are hundreds of thousands of victims of crime in 0:08:12.610 --> 0:08:15.010 any one year, that when a report comes out to 0:08:15.050 --> 0:08:17.790 tell us just how many of them there are, you 0:08:17.910 --> 0:08:22.800 probably didn't hear about it until right now. The Bureau 0:08:22.820 --> 0:08:26.250 of Statistics released a report today, which was their annual 0:08:26.490 --> 0:08:31.130 report about the number of victims of crime. As you 0:08:31.170 --> 0:08:35.449 can see, with homicide, it was 435 people who were murdered. 0:08:35.450 --> 0:08:42.370 170 people attempted murder. 519 people who'd been kidnapped or abducted. Now, yes, 0:08:42.429 --> 0:08:44.229 it's a country of 28 million people. Paul, what are 0:08:44.250 --> 0:08:51.000 you talking about? This is 0.000000. Who cares? Certainly, the 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.880 people who are still alive after attempted murder or still 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.090 alive after kidnapping or abduction, they're going to remember it, right? And, 0:08:58.100 --> 0:09:00.250 of course, the families of those that have been murdered 0:09:00.750 --> 0:09:04.550 forever changed. And think about how often we talk about 0:09:04.630 --> 0:09:07.429 all sorts of things in our society where we want 0:09:07.670 --> 0:09:10.870 this incident, we want zero harassment in the workplace. Good, 0:09:11.010 --> 0:09:14.190 great goal. Exactly what we should be talking about. But 0:09:14.250 --> 0:09:17.990 why not a more active conversation about zero crimes? An 0:09:18.010 --> 0:09:20.330 impossible aim because human beings are human beings and they 0:09:20.390 --> 0:09:23.870 range from the best amongst us, like little Darcy who's walking, 0:09:23.890 --> 0:09:28.190 a few hundred Ks from his joint in regional New 0:09:28.230 --> 0:09:32.089 South Wales to Canberra raising money. That's the best of 0:09:32.110 --> 0:09:34.010 the best. And there's the worst of the worst, like 0:09:34.030 --> 0:09:37.670 the people who have been firing into homes in Sydney. 0:09:39.350 --> 0:09:44.610 But again, victims matter here. What about sexual assault? Before 0:09:44.630 --> 0:09:48.949 I show you... OK, I'll show you. A football stadium 0:09:48.990 --> 0:09:52.490 of people were the victims of sexual assault last year. 0:09:53.650 --> 0:09:58.630 Each and every one, different. This is not recidivism where 0:09:58.710 --> 0:10:02.819 one person might commit four or five crimes. These are 0:10:02.820 --> 0:10:06.420 39,758 human beings, all individuals whose lives have been changed 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.949 forever because they were the victims of sexual assault in 0:10:08.970 --> 0:10:13.130 the past 12 months. Worth mentioning on the six o'clock 0:10:13.170 --> 0:10:16.510 news that a football stadium of people's lives had changed 0:10:16.570 --> 0:10:17.190 around the country? 0:10:17.620 --> 0:10:17.770 No. 0:10:17.790 --> 0:10:17.849 No. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:23.220 Because for some reason, too many people buy into this 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.239 idea that that's, well, that's the price of living in 0:10:25.260 --> 0:10:28.420 a big city. 28 million people, oh, you know, something's 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.960 going to happen here. Like, remember when it was COVID 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.280 and we were being told literally how many cases per 0:10:33.300 --> 0:10:37.200 day right down to local government areas? Where we were 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.020 told that unless this number, there was a certain acceptable 0:10:40.070 --> 0:10:42.350 number and zero was the only way and let's flatten 0:10:42.370 --> 0:10:44.329 the curve, all of that stuff. Remember where you couldn't 0:10:44.370 --> 0:10:46.630 leave your house and that was the weaponised version of 0:10:46.650 --> 0:10:50.760 the flu. terrible as it is, fatal as it was. 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:59.449 No such conversation about crime. 10,000 people in the past 0:10:59.450 --> 0:11:06.490 12 months were the victims of robbery directly. 66,000 people 0:11:06.670 --> 0:11:10.850 had their car stolen. This is across the country. Individuals, 0:11:11.070 --> 0:11:17.900 I repeat, 500 people, victims of kidnapping, 39,000 sexual assault, 0:11:17.900 --> 0:11:22.819 10,000 robbery, 66,000 people had their car stolen, or in 0:11:22.860 --> 0:11:27.750 terms of something stolen from them, half a million people. 0:11:30.290 --> 0:11:34.130 Yet it's just part of the life in the big city. Really? 0:11:34.150 --> 0:11:34.370 Really? 0:11:35.170 --> 0:11:38.410 Now, these numbers don't record nationally, or at least the 0:11:38.450 --> 0:11:40.690 data set that I was looking at today wasn't showing 0:11:40.730 --> 0:11:44.640 us about assault, wasn't talking about a whole bunch of 0:11:45.500 --> 0:11:50.420 other victims where these numbers would explode. And this is not, again, 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.179 me trying to scare every single person watching that you 0:11:53.230 --> 0:11:55.890 may tomorrow be a victim of crime. That's not the point. 0:11:56.740 --> 0:12:00.440 The point is that when you normalise the number of 0:12:00.540 --> 0:12:04.210 things and you don't treat them as the exception to 0:12:04.250 --> 0:12:07.510 the rule, as you do not see them as examples 0:12:07.610 --> 0:12:15.829 of something that shouldn't happen, you slowly but surely normalise it. Now, obviously, 0:12:15.929 --> 0:12:23.530 you are not going to do 39,758 individual news stories 0:12:23.750 --> 0:12:28.200 about the victims of sexual assault. There's not going to 0:12:28.220 --> 0:12:34.920 be 581,000 separate front pages about each individual version of theft. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.480 But when a report like this comes out where once 0:12:39.660 --> 0:12:42.480 a year we get a national picture of the number 0:12:42.500 --> 0:12:46.020 of people who are victims of crime, why is it 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:53.000 this late at night that you're learning about it. Now, 0:12:53.010 --> 0:12:55.380 there's always a bigger and better story to tell, and 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.200 it's up to everyone how they use their time on 0:12:58.220 --> 0:13:02.780 the air, on radio, television or online. But if you 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.900 are a victim of crime, your life has changed forever. 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.170 And I think that because too many of us, a 0:13:10.190 --> 0:13:12.510 bit like the road toll, think that happens to somebody else, 0:13:14.090 --> 0:13:16.520 that it doesn't hit home. And it's only when it 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.680 hits home that you start to realise, oh, my goodness, 0:13:19.780 --> 0:13:22.350 I'm part of this club where hundreds of people die 0:13:22.370 --> 0:13:25.790 on the roads. Or, you know, I live next door 0:13:25.809 --> 0:13:28.170 to something where, God forbid, somebody was murdered. The hundreds 0:13:28.210 --> 0:13:32.590 of those. Strength and love to the police who have 0:13:32.630 --> 0:13:34.570 to deal with this every single day. But I just 0:13:34.590 --> 0:13:36.910 wanted to say my sympathy to you if you are 0:13:36.990 --> 0:13:38.850 one of the victims of any of the crimes that 0:13:38.870 --> 0:13:40.290 I've just mentioned in the past 12 months or any 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:43.820 crime at all, ever. And I hope the people responsible 0:13:43.860 --> 0:13:46.429 have been held accountable and, if not, Let's go get them. 0:13:46.570 --> 0:13:48.170 And by that I mean the police, just in case 0:13:48.190 --> 0:13:50.350 somebody's going to go and dob to the principal. There 0:13:50.370 --> 0:13:54.589 they are, vigilantes. Because, of course, the way you talk 0:13:54.630 --> 0:13:57.370 about the problem becomes bigger than talking about the problem, 0:13:58.309 --> 0:14:02.860 which kind of is the problem. You know I'm a smoker. 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:07.000 It's terrible. It's stupid. It's dumb. All right? Fast way 0:14:07.020 --> 0:14:09.860 to an early grave. You also know that there's been 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.060 a lot of it in the news at the moment after, 0:14:12.179 --> 0:14:15.940 yet again, another tobacco bombing that took place. This one, 0:14:15.970 --> 0:14:17.630 of course, in Melbourne. What if the bloke sets himself 0:14:17.710 --> 0:14:22.990 on fire? I have zero sympathy. Zero. Well, the greatest 0:14:23.310 --> 0:14:27.280 addict when it comes to smoking is the federal government. Why? 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:33.470 Because they keep the product legal and If they truly 0:14:33.510 --> 0:14:35.330 detest the product, they'd ban it. I mean, there's no 0:14:35.390 --> 0:14:39.630 tax on lead paint. They'd just ban it. But they 0:14:39.650 --> 0:14:41.560 won't ban it because they know there's too many people 0:14:41.580 --> 0:14:44.620 that that would annoy. So let's just whack them as 0:14:44.660 --> 0:14:46.560 hard as we possibly can when it comes to tax. 0:14:47.380 --> 0:14:50.070 We get to win both ways, right? This thing is terrible. 0:14:50.150 --> 0:14:52.110 It will kill you, but we'll keep it legal and 0:14:52.150 --> 0:14:57.520 we'll clip the ticket. And since the Rudd government, every government, 0:14:57.740 --> 0:15:01.660 every treasurer, every prime minister has bought into this idea 0:15:02.140 --> 0:15:06.150 that tobacco taxes go up and up and up and 0:15:06.310 --> 0:15:09.710 up because the theory is what is called a price disincentive. 0:15:11.130 --> 0:15:13.150 The more expensive something is, the less attractive it is 0:15:13.170 --> 0:15:16.280 to use, which means people will change their habit. This 0:15:16.340 --> 0:15:19.640 is the theory behind things like a carbon tax, by 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:26.840 the way. And this has been very successful. 2005, total 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.620 amount of money the federal government got from tobacco, $ 5 billion. 0:15:31.620 --> 0:15:36.830 $ 5. 6 billion five years later. $ 8. 8 billion five years after that. 0:15:38.410 --> 0:15:44.180 And then $ 16. 3 billion. And that is not because of 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.400 the pandemic. That is because of the taxes that went 0:15:46.540 --> 0:15:52.200 absolutely through the roof. Now, the theory, again, is the 0:15:52.220 --> 0:15:55.820 more expensive smoking is, the less people will take it up. Again, 0:15:55.860 --> 0:15:57.960 I'm not going to put out here my opinion, nor 0:15:57.980 --> 0:16:01.720 will I hide my personal hypocrisy here. As a person 0:16:01.740 --> 0:16:03.980 who smokes, I shouldn't do it. It's a terrible, stupid 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.520 thing that I do. No question. The number of smokers 0:16:08.540 --> 0:16:10.510 in Australia went from 18% in 2004 to 8% in 2022. 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:12.680 So around 2020, 2022, they were in the sweet spot. 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.820 Huge amounts of taxation and a very low number of 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:31.990 people who were consuming nicotine or tobacco in Australia. And 0:16:32.070 --> 0:16:37.250 then the crims got involved. And the amount of money 0:16:37.290 --> 0:16:41.130 that the federal government has taken since that date has 0:16:41.190 --> 0:16:44.220 gone through the floor. Now, I know you've heard this 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:45.980 story all day, but I want to actually show you 0:16:46.020 --> 0:16:48.359 the numbers, chapter and verse. I want to show you 0:16:48.380 --> 0:16:54.610 the receipts... about the size of the problem. So, again, 0:16:55.830 --> 0:16:58.730 the theory is if only 8%, if there's been a 10% 0:16:58.730 --> 0:17:02.050 reduction in the past 20 years or so in smoking, well, 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.400 then this is only going to be, OK, the only 0:17:04.420 --> 0:17:06.160 problem and the only story here is about a lack 0:17:06.180 --> 0:17:06.960 of taxation. 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:08.160 No. 0:17:09.700 --> 0:17:14.740 Again, Bureau of Statistics. Household consumption of illicit tobacco and 0:17:14.780 --> 0:17:19.450 nicotine products. It shows here... I've got to squint because 0:17:19.470 --> 0:17:23.590 I don't have my glasses tonight. The quantity of nicotine 0:17:23.869 --> 0:17:30.190 consumed in Australia went up by 40% from 17 to 25. 0:17:30.190 --> 0:17:34.290 What was in common? The taxes went up. Consumption from 0:17:34.490 --> 0:17:39.070 illegal sources of tobacco went from 12% in 2017 to 80% 0:17:39.070 --> 0:17:50.770 in 2025. So while technically the government will say there's 0:17:51.530 --> 0:17:56.500 never been fewer smokers in Australia, well, that number is 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.419 starting to spike and go up. There's many ways to 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.820 get access to nicotine. There's many ways to get access 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:11.590 to tobacco that is illegal. So there has been a 0:18:11.630 --> 0:18:14.670 conversation from state premiers, and again, the madness here where 0:18:15.030 --> 0:18:16.929 If the product is one, and we all know that 0:18:16.970 --> 0:18:19.020 it is one that does detriment to people's health, it 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.660 kills them in the long run. It has a batting 0:18:22.700 --> 0:18:25.439 average of 100 when it comes to people that are 0:18:25.460 --> 0:18:31.790 hardcore smokers, 100 yet still. The reality is that, okay, 0:18:32.090 --> 0:18:33.470 the state government, so we have to deal with this 0:18:33.510 --> 0:18:37.169 firstly from the health consequences. But then secondly, from the 0:18:37.230 --> 0:18:41.210 criminal consequences, they have all recognised that, OK, we want 0:18:41.260 --> 0:18:43.100 to make it expensive for people to smoke. We don't 0:18:43.180 --> 0:18:45.880 want people to smoke. Nobody's into the idea of more 0:18:45.900 --> 0:18:48.960 people smoking, let alone kids taking it up. But clearly 0:18:48.980 --> 0:18:54.720 there's a problem when access to nicotine going through the 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.840 roof and the main delivery method of it is an 0:18:58.900 --> 0:19:03.450 illegal product. But there is a legal version of the product, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.960 unlike illegal drugs. There's not some legal version of cocaine 0:19:07.020 --> 0:19:11.260 or heroin or all of that stuff. So this is where, again, 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.240 the morality of government here. The morality should be clear 0:19:14.260 --> 0:19:16.909 to government, which is get rid of it. Ta-da, it's illegal. 0:19:16.930 --> 0:19:19.570 Put it in the same pile as all these other drugs. 0:19:19.630 --> 0:19:23.830 But there's billions of dollars in them hills. So suggestions 0:19:23.850 --> 0:19:26.930 have come from inside the Labor Party, inside the Labor Party, 0:19:26.990 --> 0:19:32.920 to cut the excise, to flatten the curve. Of taxation 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:38.010 here in the hope of killing off the industry that 0:19:38.210 --> 0:19:39.990 is hurting innocents every day. 0:19:41.250 --> 0:19:44.939 That escalating excise on tobacco products is not working. This 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.280 is the only tax in the world that's doubled, but 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.900 the revenue collected has halved. And you'd be so foolish 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.379 to believe, as some health bureaucrats continue to insist, that 0:19:55.460 --> 0:19:58.330 smoking rates have declined. They haven't declined at all. 0:19:58.369 --> 0:19:59.750 They're just all on the black market. 0:20:00.670 --> 0:20:04.390 Hallelujah. Hallelujah, right? This ain't me. Ain't me making it up. 0:20:04.410 --> 0:20:07.130 Ain't me just... twiddling in my head in the car 0:20:07.170 --> 0:20:10.020 park before the show. That's why I took you through 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.600 the data, to tell you the story of how we 0:20:12.619 --> 0:20:16.179 got to where we are. So as you know, One 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.560 Nation has said that they want to cut tobacco tax 0:20:18.619 --> 0:20:22.000 by 75%. The Coalition today came and said they want 0:20:22.020 --> 0:20:24.120 to cut it by 80%. They want to get back 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.660 to a scenario... that, yes, flattens the curve in terms 0:20:27.700 --> 0:20:30.100 of the amount of money coming in, but also flattens 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.820 the demand for people to go and buy it illegally. 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.940 Because unless somebody somewhere is talking about a total outlawing 0:20:36.020 --> 0:20:38.000 of tobacco, then they have to come up with a 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.370 system of, yes, having one foot in both places, which 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.139 is it's bad, it hurts, it kills, but we're not 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.270 going to ban it, so therefore we decide to tax it. 0:20:47.310 --> 0:20:49.510 So if you're going to consume it, consume it the 0:20:49.730 --> 0:20:52.830 legal way that gets taxed, not the illegal way that 0:20:52.869 --> 0:20:56.600 doesn't get taxed. Here was the opposition stating their case 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.180 for the change today. 0:21:00.430 --> 0:21:03.050 But the horse has bolted and what we've seen is 0:21:03.070 --> 0:21:08.830 the current policy has failed. It's supporting rising crime, cheap 0:21:08.869 --> 0:21:13.800 smokes and, frankly, it is supporting organised crime in this country. 0:21:13.970 --> 0:21:17.840 Something has to be done to protect the law-abiding people 0:21:17.900 --> 0:21:20.500 and businesses, hard-working people here in Victoria and all around 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.320 the country that are on the front lines of the impact. 0:21:24.460 --> 0:21:27.629 of big crime. So, we're all adults. It takes a 0:21:27.650 --> 0:21:29.909 couple of minutes to explain, but yet again, for the 0:21:29.930 --> 0:21:32.570 400th time, I have now explained to you the problem 0:21:33.070 --> 0:21:37.550 and the need for a different solution. For the Labor Party, 0:21:38.170 --> 0:21:40.250 their view, of course, here is, well, OK, if 8%... 0:21:40.250 --> 0:21:42.490 This is how they always think, right? If 8% of 0:21:42.530 --> 0:21:47.110 people are smokers, then 92% won't be smokers, so, therefore, 0:21:47.330 --> 0:21:49.310 all you have to do is just do smoking bad 0:21:49.330 --> 0:21:53.370 and OK. Right? So despite everything I just showed you, 0:21:53.650 --> 0:21:57.310 despite the problem that exists with the ABS, the ABS, 0:21:57.450 --> 0:22:01.710 not the far right-wing think tank, saying, and I repeat, 0:22:03.890 --> 0:22:09.300 that nicotine consumption is up 40% and it comes via 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.260 the sprays, the patches, lots of other things, vapes as 0:22:12.340 --> 0:22:19.169 well as smoking, and the source of nicotine cigarettes is 0:22:19.230 --> 0:22:25.450 now 80% illegal, their response? Just pretend no-one's ever met 0:22:25.490 --> 0:22:28.340 a smoker and they think that this is just some 0:22:28.380 --> 0:22:33.420 sort of crazy way of creating more smokers, not less crooks. 0:22:35.619 --> 0:22:40.119 It will kill people. Like, seriously, we have some of 0:22:40.180 --> 0:22:46.730 the lowest smoking rates in the world because... cigarettes are expensive. 0:22:47.130 --> 0:22:49.830 If we drop the price of legal cigarettes, what's to 0:22:49.890 --> 0:22:52.950 say that organised crime doesn't drop the price of illegal cigarettes? 0:22:53.290 --> 0:22:55.629 Are we really going to be in a race to 0:22:55.650 --> 0:22:58.310 the bottom with criminal organised gangs? 0:22:59.590 --> 0:23:01.210 Or are we going to be a joint that just 0:23:01.260 --> 0:23:03.440 looks the other way and pretends that there's not really 0:23:03.460 --> 0:23:06.100 a problem and anyone who's actually interested in dealing with 0:23:06.220 --> 0:23:09.060 the problem is somehow trying to create a completely different one? 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.210 I'm sick of this way. It works on everything, right? OK, 0:23:13.410 --> 0:23:15.750 majority of people don't have an investment property. So, therefore, 0:23:16.070 --> 0:23:18.350 let's go for the investment property people because at the 0:23:18.369 --> 0:23:20.560 end of the day, if there was a giant room 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:22.540 and everyone in Australia, one side for those that have 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:24.520 got an investment property, one that don't, well, there's more 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:26.720 people over here and it's all about winning elections, so 0:23:26.740 --> 0:23:30.620