WEBVTT - Why children are being kicked off the NDIS

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Outgoing Labor Minister Bill Shorten says he's leaving politics at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the month, confident with the state of

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<v Speaker 1>the National Disability Insurance Scheme. As Minister for the NDIS,

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<v Speaker 1>Bill Shorton has been focused on making massive reforms to

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<v Speaker 1>the scheme in an effort to rain in its growing

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<v Speaker 1>costs and insure its sustainability. And while the government says

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<v Speaker 1>the changes are largely about cracking down on fraud, it

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<v Speaker 1>turns out a third of the savings will come from

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<v Speaker 1>pushing children off the NDIS. Today Senior reporter for the

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<v Speaker 1>Saturday paper, Rick Morton on the children targeted in the

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<v Speaker 1>NDAs crackdown and the real intent behind the cuts. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>January sixteenth, So Rick, I thought we could begin by

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<v Speaker 1>talking about the letters. So the NDIS, the National Disability

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<v Speaker 1>Insurance Scheme, has been sending out letters to some of

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<v Speaker 1>its participants telling them that they are no longer eligible

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<v Speaker 1>for support. You've seen one of these letters, Can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about what it says?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So they've been sending out about twelve hundred eligibility

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<v Speaker 2>reassessment letters a week and they're asking for more information,

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<v Speaker 2>more evidence about a person's disability because they believe they

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<v Speaker 2>may no longer qualify. And if after twenty eight days

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<v Speaker 2>these people are unable to furnish that evidence or what

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<v Speaker 2>they give the NDIS agency in charge doesn't meet whatever

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<v Speaker 2>mysterious requirements they have, they tell them they're no longer

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<v Speaker 2>eligible and they literally just kick them off the National

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<v Speaker 2>Disability Insurance Scheme. So I've seen one in particular, where

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<v Speaker 2>there's this young girl. She's got childhood apraxia of speech,

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<v Speaker 2>which is quite a severe communication disability, it's a neuro impairment,

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<v Speaker 2>and the NDA has said, look, there's no doubt that

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<v Speaker 2>your daughter, to the parent we've chosen not to name,

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<v Speaker 2>requires intensive support and will continue to require intensive speech therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>but we're not going to fund it. That is the

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<v Speaker 2>job of the health system, the National Disciplined Insurance Agency says,

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<v Speaker 2>and the health systems are run by the state governments,

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<v Speaker 2>and you need to go and get your support from them.

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<v Speaker 2>So these letters are very blunt, and there's thousands of

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<v Speaker 2>them every week in what is essentially a scattergun approach,

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<v Speaker 2>often without prior communication or explanation. They just spat out

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<v Speaker 2>of a system process where you know, according to people

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<v Speaker 2>I've spoken to, there are KPIs where staff are feeling

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<v Speaker 2>forced to meet a certain number of targets.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, okay, And so twelve hundred letters like this going

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<v Speaker 1>out a week, do we know, Rick, how many children

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<v Speaker 1>are being told this that they're no longer going to

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<v Speaker 1>be supported in this way?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they've actually got targets. So the target for this

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<v Speaker 2>financial year just gone was six percent of all children

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<v Speaker 2>on the scheme they wanted to remove. They ended up

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<v Speaker 2>removing about three and a half percent of the one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and eighty thousand children under the age of nine

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<v Speaker 2>on the NDS. Children are the biggest and have always

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<v Speaker 2>been the biggest part of the NDAs they've been the

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<v Speaker 2>fastest growing, and a lot of that comes down to

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that the modeling that was done when the

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<v Speaker 2>NDS began just wasn't accurate. They didn't know how many

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<v Speaker 2>kids with autism or how many kids who had developmental

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<v Speaker 2>delay or needed therapy, particularly early intervention therapy, and so

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<v Speaker 2>they've never coped with the numbers, which is one side

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<v Speaker 2>of the equation. But of course the other side is

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<v Speaker 2>that having written the legislation as it is that allows

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<v Speaker 2>kids to get access and their families to get much

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<v Speaker 2>needed support, much needed therapy. The NDAs has decided they

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<v Speaker 2>don't want them anymore, and to the fullest extent possible,

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<v Speaker 2>they are targeting them. They are quite open about this.

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<v Speaker 2>They write about it in their annual report, they track

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<v Speaker 2>it in their quarterly reports. They have grasped the numbers

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<v Speaker 2>of how many kids have ultimately left the scheme, and

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<v Speaker 2>in the last financial year alone, there were six thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and eighty seven children under the age of nine who

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<v Speaker 2>were revoked and another four hundred and fifty who ended

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<v Speaker 2>up qualifying for full disability under the NDAs and going on,

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<v Speaker 2>So three point three five percent of all of the kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So this isn't something that the NDAs is trying

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<v Speaker 1>to hide. But why are they doing it? Rick, What

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<v Speaker 1>are they saying about why they think that these children

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<v Speaker 1>no longer need their support?

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<v Speaker 2>Now the NBAA is selling all of this as a

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<v Speaker 2>massive success story. They actually claim in their annual report

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<v Speaker 2>that there are more children leaving the NDAs because they

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<v Speaker 2>have quote unquote achieved their goals. Now, when I put

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<v Speaker 2>that to an advocate, they're like, that is an outright line.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't even measure it. They can't measure the data

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<v Speaker 2>is missing, and they're actually, as we've spoken about in

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<v Speaker 2>the letters, they're sending to family saying, oh, yeah, so

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<v Speaker 2>and so your daughter needs intensive support. She hadn't met

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<v Speaker 2>her goals at all, she's got childhood a praxia of speech,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're claiming this as a win. It's misleading in

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<v Speaker 2>the extreme. But also we've seen many decisions where people

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<v Speaker 2>have had their access revoked, who should not have and

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<v Speaker 2>who because they fought it, had it overturned. So there

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<v Speaker 2>was a mistake in the agency decision making. They got

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<v Speaker 2>it wrong, they had to overturn it. But not everybody

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<v Speaker 2>is able to fight, and so the process by which

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<v Speaker 2>this is happening, I think it is a blunt instrument,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it is catching a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>off guard. And it's also hurting families who actually don't

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<v Speaker 2>have anywhere else to go and whose kids need support

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<v Speaker 2>now lest their decilities become worse over time.

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<v Speaker 1>And so for these children and their families who are

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<v Speaker 1>being kicked off, sometimes completely unfairly, and that's I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>shown in some of the reversals. They're being told that

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<v Speaker 1>they should be cared for by the health system, but

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<v Speaker 1>does that work? Is there any room for them in

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<v Speaker 1>the health system.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you know, you might be able to get some

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<v Speaker 2>chronic health funded items under Medicare, for example, with childhood

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<v Speaker 2>a practicia of speech, you might get access to maybe

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<v Speaker 2>six weeks of speech therapy and then it cuts off.

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<v Speaker 2>And according to the NDA's own admissions on the letter

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<v Speaker 2>sent to the family, this child in particular will need

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<v Speaker 2>intensitive support ongoing. And what happens when you don't quite

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<v Speaker 2>qualify for the NDS is that there should be service systems,

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<v Speaker 2>mainstream supports in schools, in childca settings outside of the NDAs,

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<v Speaker 2>funded by the state governments but also the Commonwealth that

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<v Speaker 2>will support your child. Now, the moment the NDAA started,

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<v Speaker 2>state governments got out of service provision and it was

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<v Speaker 2>a complete disaster and should never be allowed to happen,

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<v Speaker 2>but it did. And what we have now is where

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<v Speaker 2>family's the only place they can get the support they

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<v Speaker 2>need is the NDAs. What the government did was say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>actually we're going to fix that, and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>start kicking everyone off now before we fixed it, and

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<v Speaker 2>so there isn't this promised foundational level of support which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't due to begin until July this year, and it

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<v Speaker 2>is probably not going to be ready. It doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 2>to be ready in New South Wales. I query whether

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<v Speaker 2>it will even be what was promised anywhere, but it

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<v Speaker 2>either way, it doesn't exist yet. The bald fact of

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<v Speaker 2>the matter is that they're exiting people to nothing from

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<v Speaker 2>the NDIAS and all of the talk we're getting and

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<v Speaker 2>hearing now about NDOS reform is about fraud and wrought in.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a crackdown on fraud, and people are like, yes, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>get the bad people, but that's not actually what we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing in terms of the savings being realized under the NDIAS.

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<v Speaker 1>Reform after the break to the figures around fraud ad up.

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<v Speaker 1>So Rick, you've been reporting on the savings that the

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<v Speaker 1>government is finding by kicking children off the ndaes. But

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<v Speaker 1>what we've heard again and again is that there is

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<v Speaker 1>so much fraud happening within the unds and does need

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<v Speaker 1>to be cleaned up. So if we look at the

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<v Speaker 1>bigger picture, how much of the savings that the government

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<v Speaker 1>is making come from actually cleaning up fraud versus changing

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<v Speaker 1>who it is who actually receives funding for their disability.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is a fascinating question because almost none of

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<v Speaker 2>it and yet to listen to the retric it is

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<v Speaker 2>all fraud, it's all roarting all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>The National Disability Insurance Scheme, set up to help our

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<v Speaker 3>most vulnerable is being roughted by around four billion dollars

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<v Speaker 3>every year.

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<v Speaker 1>Examples just in the last week, a twenty thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 1>holiday border car brand new, seventy three thousand dollars rent

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<v Speaker 1>subsidies alcohol.

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<v Speaker 4>The revelations made by the Schemes integrity chief who told

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<v Speaker 4>Parliament you name it, it's on the list, including illicit

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<v Speaker 4>drugs like heroine, cocaine and ice.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact they were told that if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to sell difficult reform that cuts the cost of the ndias,

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<v Speaker 2>the way to do that is to focus on talking

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<v Speaker 2>about fraud and routing. And they got the labor aligned

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<v Speaker 2>Pollyon Research GRIP Redbridge in to do three or four

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<v Speaker 2>rounds of market research where they tested messaging with people

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<v Speaker 2>and what they came up with, literally they said, you

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<v Speaker 2>can induce qualified tolerance for difficult NDOS reforms if you

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<v Speaker 2>talk about fraud and morting, and to a t that

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<v Speaker 2>is what the NDAs Minister Bill Shortan has done ever since.

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<v Speaker 3>The roots have been right. For years, the NDIA did

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<v Speaker 3>not have a system to see det or detect. We

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<v Speaker 3>are making up for years of bad systems.

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing is it works because it's true in

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<v Speaker 2>that there is fraud and routing. No one disagrees with that.

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<v Speaker 3>That everyone in this house wants to stamp out the roots.

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<v Speaker 3>But I have to say it takes a labor government

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<v Speaker 3>to fix the NDIS.

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<v Speaker 2>But using Bill Shorten's own figures of crackdowns on payment integrity,

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<v Speaker 2>so not even fraud, but suspicious payments or payments that

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<v Speaker 2>they say we don't fund, which is different to a

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<v Speaker 2>fraud case. They reckon they'll save two hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>over the next four years. Now, the value of kicking

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<v Speaker 2>kids off the scheme is one hundred and twenty five

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars in three months. Their own figures five hundred

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars a year of revoking access to kids, and

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<v Speaker 2>yet the fraud and routing saving is two hundred million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars over the next four years now in the annual accounts.

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<v Speaker 2>After the NDS legislation reform package passed and with future

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<v Speaker 2>proposed reforms, the difference between what the ndias would have

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<v Speaker 2>cost and what it is going to cost now is

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen million dollar less. So they're making nineteen million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>worth of savings to the four cars, only two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars of which is coming from fraud and warting.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that's not much at all, Rick, That's only one

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<v Speaker 1>percent of cost savings actually coming from fraud.

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<v Speaker 2>That's correct, and that's just from actually, I mean not

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<v Speaker 2>to overcomplicated, but that is actually just from payment integrity,

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<v Speaker 2>the fraud savings. There's a funny little footnote in the

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<v Speaker 2>annual report for the NDOS which says, oh, actually, so

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<v Speaker 2>the fraud saving for last financial year twenty three twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four was meant to be thirty million dollars or thereabouts.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. So would you say then that the rhetoric around

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<v Speaker 1>fraud is disguising the government's true intent here when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to cuts to the NDAs.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it disguises the reality, which is that they

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<v Speaker 2>are making really difficult decisions, and I think some of

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<v Speaker 2>them are difficult decisions that were always going to have

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<v Speaker 2>to be made, but they don't want to be honest

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<v Speaker 2>about what they're doing. I've covered the NDA since it

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<v Speaker 2>began right in twenty thirteen. For the longest time, until

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Shorten came to power, the NDAs agency would tell

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<v Speaker 2>me in official statements the NDAs is on track and

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<v Speaker 2>on budget and there is nothing to see here. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course now it's a crisis.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is a crisis for the thousands of children

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<v Speaker 1>who are losing this support. And Rick, it seems obvious

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<v Speaker 1>that if this assistance is pulled and there is not

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<v Speaker 1>a viable safety net in place, then this will mean

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<v Speaker 1>likely worse outcomes for them in the immediate term, but

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<v Speaker 1>also potentially a real knock on effect for their lives.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what we're seeing is evidence that the agency is

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<v Speaker 2>failing on a large scale with everyone. I think their

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<v Speaker 2>own metrics have fallen through the floor. They've collapsed. And

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<v Speaker 2>so this is not a story about how the NDS

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<v Speaker 2>does not need to be reformed. It is a story

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<v Speaker 2>about how the NDAs reform is happening in a topsy

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<v Speaker 2>turvy way that is actually hurting people who should not

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<v Speaker 2>be hurt. And they know about enough of this now

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<v Speaker 2>to know better, and they're doing it anyway. If you

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<v Speaker 2>save money in the NDIAS budget, but the budget of

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<v Speaker 2>medicare goes up and the budget of state services goes up,

0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 2>are you actually saving money? The shortsightedness of some of

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<v Speaker 2>these decisions is quite mind boggling because it's become again,

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<v Speaker 2>as all things in austrain politics tend to do, how

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<v Speaker 2>much is the budget for this one siloed thing, and

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 2>if that money goes somewhere else, who cares? Because the

0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>person who came up with these NDAs reformed Push Orden,

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.720
<v Speaker 2>who's retiring and will no longer be a minister as

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<v Speaker 2>of a few weeks gets to say, I fix the NDAs,

0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:37.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just I think the story is much more complicated.

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Rick. Thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for we appreciate it. Also in the.

0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.640
<v Speaker 1>News today, a forty nine year old man has been

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<v Speaker 1>charged with murder after the body of an Indigenous woman

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.920
<v Speaker 1>was found near the Todd River in Alice Springs. Please

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<v Speaker 1>say the fifty one year old woman was the partner

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 1>of the man, noting she's the Northern Territory's first alleged

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 1>victim of domestic violence homicide of twenty twenty five. Advocates

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<v Speaker 1>say the case is the first domestic violence homicide of

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<v Speaker 1>the year in the country. Last year, seventy eight women

0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.040
<v Speaker 1>were killed in acts of gender based violence. According to

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<v Speaker 1>the Counting Dead Women Project, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 1>women are eight times more likely to be victims of

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:37.600
<v Speaker 1>homicide than non Aboriginal women and her Mass has accepted

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.200
<v Speaker 1>a draft agreement for a ceasefire in Gaza. The proposed

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 1>ceasefire involves a release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners,

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 1>a greater aid access to Gaza, and eventually a full

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.560
<v Speaker 1>withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. The plan

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<v Speaker 1>still needs approval from the Prime Minister Benjamin Ettina, who's

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<v Speaker 1>security cabinet, with one minister threatening to resign if the

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 1>government agrees to the Dear, I'm Ruby Jones. This is

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<v Speaker 1>seven a m.

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<v Speaker 2>See you tomorrow.