WEBVTT - Serco’s ugly legacy in Australia’s immigration detention system

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>For more than a decade, the British multinational Circo has

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<v Speaker 1>managed Australia's Onshore immigration detention system. During that time, they're

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<v Speaker 1>rating billions of taxpayers dollars and helped build what some

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<v Speaker 1>described as one of the most secretive and extreme detention regimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Their time has also been plagued by scandals and allegations

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<v Speaker 1>of mistreatment and disproportionate use of force. Now the government

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<v Speaker 1>has decided not to renew Circo's contract, choosing instead to

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<v Speaker 1>go with a US private prison operator. Today journalists have

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<v Speaker 1>contributed to the Saturday paper Denham Sadler on the ugly

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<v Speaker 1>legacy of Circo and the future of immigration detention in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday January thirty. Daniman, You've been reporting on Australia's

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<v Speaker 1>immigration detention system for ten years now, so can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about Circo.

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<v Speaker 2>Circo is this massive conglomerate based in the UK. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a market cap of about three billion dollars and

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<v Speaker 2>they're listening on the London Stock Exchange and they basically

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<v Speaker 2>try and win any work that the government wants to outsource.

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<v Speaker 3>What does a career with CIRCO look like. It's secure

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<v Speaker 3>employment where training is provided, working in a DOS.

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<v Speaker 2>So they operate across defense, they operate in the space sector,

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<v Speaker 2>they run cleaning services, and they have a massive presence

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<v Speaker 2>in the justice space, so they're on prisons and they

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<v Speaker 2>run immigration detention centers.

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<v Speaker 1>Registered nurses, corrective case officers, security and intelligence officers, vocational trainers,

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<v Speaker 1>trade instructors and so much more.

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<v Speaker 3>It's real jobs for real people.

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<v Speaker 2>And they've been running the immigration detention centers, all the

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<v Speaker 2>onshore centers in Australia for about fifteen years. So has

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<v Speaker 2>this reputation across the years for being basically akin to prison,

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<v Speaker 2>very highly securitized, a focus on kind of safety and

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<v Speaker 2>security over anything else, over the well being of people,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what a lot of advocates and people that

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<v Speaker 2>have been through the system have said as well, that

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<v Speaker 2>it's led to a lot of issues with how people

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<v Speaker 2>are treated today. The Karake website released a manual which

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<v Speaker 2>has been given out by CERCO to the people it

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<v Speaker 2>employs to work at its immigration detention center.

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<v Speaker 4>It is a last resort, as it says, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>getting into a quote fight with asylum seekers. But you know,

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<v Speaker 4>if you read through the document, there's quite a few

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<v Speaker 4>use of force issues. There's instructions on how to kick, punch,

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<v Speaker 4>jab fingers into detainee whims, you know, pressure point tactics,

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<v Speaker 4>which are obviously very controversial.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been a lot of scandals and kind of there's

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<v Speaker 2>been incidents of self harm. There's been a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>valegations of human rights abuses.

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<v Speaker 5>Professor Louise Newman from Monash University tell the Joint Select

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<v Speaker 5>Committee into the Immigration detentions at a network there's no

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<v Speaker 5>medical review process for the use of solitary confinement in

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<v Speaker 5>detention centers. She said, some staff at the centers run

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<v Speaker 5>by the company Circo even carrying knives to cut down

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<v Speaker 5>asylum seekers who try to hang themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>And a lot of concerns about how people are treated

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<v Speaker 2>in these centers and how.

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<v Speaker 1>Much money they raked in from the comwealth over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>They've received more than seven point five billion dollars across

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<v Speaker 2>about fifteen years of contracts, so that's across two contracts

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<v Speaker 2>and one of those contracts was extended many many times.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's very lucrative business. They've won a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that's a lot of money over that time.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we get into detail about some of those incidents

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<v Speaker 1>and scandals, you mentioned what was it like before CIRCO

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<v Speaker 1>came into the picture. How much has the immigration detention

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<v Speaker 1>system changed.

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<v Speaker 2>This was something that surprised me or bit some advocates

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<v Speaker 2>I talked to remember kind of twenty years ago, you

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<v Speaker 2>could go in on a weekend and take someone out

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<v Speaker 2>of the network and take them to the beach or

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<v Speaker 2>take them to a church service, and so there was

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<v Speaker 2>a different level of security to the system. But across

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<v Speaker 2>that time, we've obviously seen seeking asylum and immigration become

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<v Speaker 2>such a large political issue, and it's become a national

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<v Speaker 2>security issue, and we've seen the rise and off short

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<v Speaker 2>attention and everything like that as well. That's transformed it

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<v Speaker 2>into one that is much closer to a prison network

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<v Speaker 2>and with a focus on securitization.

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<v Speaker 1>So wats the hardline approach mat for people in detention?

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<v Speaker 1>What does it like to be in detention?

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the men I spoke to for the story,

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<v Speaker 2>his name's Mustaffer Azima Taba, and he's known as Moz

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<v Speaker 2>and he's a couraged asylam seeker who was eventually medivaced

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<v Speaker 2>to Australia as part of that cohort of asylum seekers

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<v Speaker 2>that were taken to Australia for medical means. And throughout

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<v Speaker 2>this time he also has been recognized as a refugee

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<v Speaker 2>to a legitimate refugee and then after being medivac he

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<v Speaker 2>spent about fourteen months in hotel detention. So CO also

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<v Speaker 2>operate these hotels at service detention centers.

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<v Speaker 6>The government used the hotel as prison to lock me

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<v Speaker 6>up and the situation made me more sick. My body

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<v Speaker 6>is trembling when I think about the time I was

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<v Speaker 6>in those hotels.

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<v Speaker 2>He spoke to me of this regime where CIRCO basically

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<v Speaker 2>just controlled his entire life, which was restricted to this

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<v Speaker 2>tiny hotel room where he could barely open the windows.

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<v Speaker 6>Definitely, it was worse than Manus Island. I was locked

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<v Speaker 6>up on the third floor of the Mantra and the

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<v Speaker 6>Park prison. I spent twenty three hours a day in

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<v Speaker 6>a room. Officers ten times a day came to the room.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the biggest things he talks about a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about the trauma is that he was just pat

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<v Speaker 2>searched constantly by the circle guards. He says across his

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<v Speaker 2>time in the hotel, he was pat searched about four

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<v Speaker 2>hundred times, and he said this has a really huge

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<v Speaker 2>impact on him and his mental health and was very triggering.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was another case that the as An Equity

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<v Speaker 2>Center settled with CIRCO and the government in twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and that related to an asylum seeker called you See,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was forced to wear handcuffs every time he

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<v Speaker 2>left the detention center. He was being held out to

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<v Speaker 2>access medical treatment and he, similar to Moz just says

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<v Speaker 2>this has had a very triggering effect on him and

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<v Speaker 2>it was very traumatizing and did impact his ability to

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<v Speaker 2>access that medical treatment as well. And these incidents definitely

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<v Speaker 2>aren't isolated cases as well, so we do thanks to

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<v Speaker 2>the parliamentary system, we have a bit of information on

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<v Speaker 2>how rife these things are, and some stats released by

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<v Speaker 2>Home Affairs shows there are actually more than fifteen incidents

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<v Speaker 2>of use of force on an average day in detention

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<v Speaker 2>and these use of force includes the use of handcuffs,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was also at least one incident of self

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<v Speaker 2>harm on an average day as well across the last

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<v Speaker 2>five years.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and so looking back on Circo's reign. Advocates and

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<v Speaker 1>informed detain these the people you've spoken to, are they

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<v Speaker 1>optimistic that it's over.

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<v Speaker 2>Nearly every advocate I talked to that has fort Circo

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<v Speaker 2>over these years and represented people in the detention centers,

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<v Speaker 2>they're definitely not upset to be seen in the back

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<v Speaker 2>of Circo. But there's no positivity at all that anything's

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<v Speaker 2>going to change when the government has brought in just

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<v Speaker 2>another prison provider, another company that has a reputation for

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<v Speaker 2>certain conditions in their centers. Green Senator David Shubridge told

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<v Speaker 2>me that he thinks it's the most extreme and secretive

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<v Speaker 2>detention regime in the world, and I think everyone's still

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<v Speaker 2>pretty concerned that not much is going to change in

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<v Speaker 2>the system.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break. Why the government broke with Circo. Then

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<v Speaker 1>the federal government has opted not to renew Cerco's contract

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<v Speaker 1>for running Australia's immigration detention system. Do we know why

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<v Speaker 1>they made that decision?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was really interesting. I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people I talked to that are very involved in the

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<v Speaker 2>space and how what operates with surprise that Circo lost

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<v Speaker 2>the contract. Potentially, there were just too many incidents over time,

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<v Speaker 2>and they had a chance because the contract did end.

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<v Speaker 2>They haven't scrapped the contract, it did come to an end,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've found a new provider that they took that

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<v Speaker 2>chance to bring someone else in. They did reply to

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<v Speaker 2>some questions for me, they didn't really address any of

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<v Speaker 2>the questions I put to them about Circo's track record

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<v Speaker 2>and the fact that it is a private operator running

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<v Speaker 2>it just makes it a bit harder to access information

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<v Speaker 2>as an added layer of secrecy when they can claim

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<v Speaker 2>commercial and confidence on some of these elements of the

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<v Speaker 2>contract and hired that from the public.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do we know about the new company that

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<v Speaker 1>will take over?

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<v Speaker 2>So the new providers a subsidiary of a company called

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<v Speaker 2>Management and Training Corporations. They're a US based company and

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<v Speaker 2>they run a number of for profit prisons in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States as well as immigration detention centers.

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<v Speaker 3>Riots took hold of a prison in Arizona.

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<v Speaker 1>Sixteen people were injured, twelve hundred inmates were evacuated, Much

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<v Speaker 1>of the facility itself was left un inhabitable.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's been a lot of incidents reported on already.

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<v Speaker 7>Their targeted destruction of MTC property strongly suggested The riots

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<v Speaker 7>were brought on by inmate dissatisfaction with the way the

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<v Speaker 7>prison was operated. There was a culture of disorganization, disengagement

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<v Speaker 7>in disregard for a Department of Corrections.

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<v Speaker 2>Policies, and a lot of legal suits that have kind

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<v Speaker 2>of shed a bit of light on what the conditions

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<v Speaker 2>alike in their centers, and it doesn't paint a very

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<v Speaker 2>nice picture.

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<v Speaker 3>The ACLU published its report last year. In addition to

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<v Speaker 3>accounts of overcrowding and squalid conditions inside the tent city,

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<v Speaker 3>inmates complained of excessive use of solitary confinement, a lack

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<v Speaker 3>of activities to occupy their time, and inadequate medical treatment.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of allegations of mistreatment. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of concerns about access to health care and the provision

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<v Speaker 2>of health care to people under their care.

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<v Speaker 7>The toilets would back up and ras sewage would overflow

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<v Speaker 7>into the kevlar tents.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of this has come out across the years.

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<v Speaker 2>It's nothing new, and the federal government's definitely aware of it.

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<v Speaker 3>An MTC spokesman emailed completely disagree with the anecdotal allegations

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<v Speaker 3>in the ACLU report.

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<v Speaker 2>So while the government is getting rid of Circo from

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<v Speaker 2>the Immigration Attention Network. There aren't any real hopes that

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<v Speaker 2>there's going to be a big change to the approach

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<v Speaker 2>because they're bringing in another company that's known for running

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<v Speaker 2>prisons in this way.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're signed the contract. Do we know how much

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<v Speaker 1>that was for and over what period?

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<v Speaker 2>So the contract they've won runs for five years and

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<v Speaker 2>it's worth more than two billion dollars, so it's another

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<v Speaker 2>massive contract running for a long time and they're operating

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<v Speaker 2>all the same facilities that Circle Or were, so they're

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<v Speaker 2>taking over from midway through this year. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>important to note that CERCO still has a massive presence

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia. They win a lot of government contracts and

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<v Speaker 2>even in the justice space, they still run two really

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<v Speaker 2>big prisons in Australia on massive contracts. So they run

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<v Speaker 2>the Acacia Prison in Western Australia and the Clarence Prison

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<v Speaker 2>in New South Wales which is fairly new and it's

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest prison in Australia now, So they still have

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<v Speaker 2>a massive presence even in justice and across everything else

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And just finally, you've been covering these issues for a

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<v Speaker 1>long time now, just broadly what do we need to

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<v Speaker 1>do with our detention and immigration system to change the

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<v Speaker 1>way we approach asylum seekers and those on visas.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, there's a lot we need to do, But I

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<v Speaker 2>think when it comes to these centers, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>the approach to these people as criminals and that these

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<v Speaker 2>places are serving as another prison if they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>exist at all. They're not meant to be places where

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<v Speaker 2>people spend a lot of time, but there are people

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<v Speaker 2>spending years there, so that needs to be looked down.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they're people that either have served a prison

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<v Speaker 2>sentence or haven't received any sentence, so they shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>treated like criminals. So I think that whole approach of

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<v Speaker 2>security above all that else needs to be addressed. There's

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<v Speaker 2>obviously huge problems with offshore processing and how people are

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<v Speaker 2>treated on know WU. There's still people on know WU,

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<v Speaker 2>so that needs to be addressed and those people need

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<v Speaker 2>to be taken off there. And I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>wider issue of how we approach immigration and taking a

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<v Speaker 2>more human rights focus approach versus this treating as a

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<v Speaker 2>national security issue or a political tool that can be

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<v Speaker 2>used to kind of win votes.

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<v Speaker 1>Then then thanks for coming in thanks much for your time,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me. In a statement to the Saturday paper,

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<v Speaker 1>CERCO said we strongly reject the assertions about Circo's operations.

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<v Speaker 1>Circo's commitment to the rights and welfare of detainees in

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<v Speaker 1>our care has remained consistent since two thousand and nine.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the News today, underlying inflation for the December

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<v Speaker 1>quarter eas to three point two percent, down from three

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<v Speaker 1>point six percent in the previous quarter. It's the lowest

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<v Speaker 1>rate since twenty twenty one. Meanwhile, the consumer price index

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<v Speaker 1>rows by just zero point two percent in the same quarter,

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<v Speaker 1>with the largest price rises coming from alcohol and tobacco.

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<v Speaker 1>Some economists say the figures are promising for a potential

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<v Speaker 1>interest rate cut. A new South Wales Police, the Australian

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<v Speaker 1>Federal Police and ASO are investigating whether explosives discovered in

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<v Speaker 1>Sydney's northwest were intended for an antisemitic attack. Police say

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<v Speaker 1>they were alluded to the explosives, which were being stored

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<v Speaker 1>in the caravan and dural ten days ago. An anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitic message was also found in the caravan. The powerjail

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<v Speaker 1>police seized had a blast zone radius of forty meters

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<v Speaker 1>in diameter. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for listening.