Speaker 1: It just kind of popped out. At least was talking
Speaker 1: about IVF and I think we were quite connected just
Speaker 1: in that moment as girlfriends talking to each other, and
Speaker 1: I kind of said, very casually, Oh, if you haven't needed,
Speaker 1: sorry that I could do that. You know, we went
Speaker 1: to lunch to catch up that day. It wasn't something
Speaker 1: that was in the back of my mind where I
Speaker 1: was going Today's the day I'm going to offer. It
Speaker 1: just kind of slipped out.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms.
Speaker 3: I would like to acknowledge the gadigal people of your
Speaker 3: nation on which we are recording this podcast, and paying
Speaker 3: my respects to elders both past and present. I am
Speaker 3: not going to be introducing my husband, Cam Daddo because.
Speaker 2: He's not here.
Speaker 3: It's just me and we're just going to have a
Speaker 3: girly girl chat again today. You know when you were
Speaker 3: just so close to someone, a best friend that you
Speaker 3: share laughs, hurt, pain, everything with, maybe you can share
Speaker 3: clothes or shoes. Well, these two women have taken the
Speaker 3: friendship to a level not many of us will ever experience.
Speaker 3: Sarah Meganson lent her body to her dear friend Lisa
Speaker 3: Messenger to have the thing she wanted most in the world,
Speaker 3: a baby. This is a beautiful story of generosity, kindness,
Speaker 3: and a long, wild journey, all intimately told through their
Speaker 3: book The Power of Two, a life changing story of friendship, surrogacy,
Speaker 3: and true connection. So before I chat with them, just
Speaker 3: a little info on who they are. Lisa is She's
Speaker 3: a vibrant, game changing founder and editor in chief of
Speaker 3: The Collective Hub, a multimedia, cross platform movement to inspire
Speaker 3: and educate. And Lisa has authored over forty books. She's
Speaker 3: an incredible international speaker and a passionate humanitarian. And Sarah
Speaker 3: is a lifestyle columnist and editor, and she's ghost written
Speaker 3: or edited more than thirty books. An expert in finance
Speaker 3: with twenty years experience, she's a regular media commentator on
Speaker 3: a mission to make money easy, especially for women and kids.
Speaker 3: They're good mates, They've got a story to tell. So
Speaker 3: let's get them into the bathroom and find out more.
Speaker 3: Please welcome Sarah and Lisa. So, Sarah and Lisa, welcome
Speaker 3: to the bathroom, the separate bathrooms.
Speaker 1: Thank you. We're so delighted to be here.
Speaker 3: I'm thrilled to have you both on. Where are you
Speaker 3: talking to us? From You're up north, an't you.
Speaker 1: I'm sunny Gold Coast, Oh yep.
Speaker 4: And I am Bangalore inland from Myron Bay. We are
Speaker 4: an hour and fifteen minutes away from each other geographically.
Speaker 3: Oh are you still working with each other? Because you
Speaker 3: were workmates that's how you met, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, we worked on the book together, but that's about
Speaker 1: where the professional relationship ends these days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, Yeah, I think you're slightly above that now.
Speaker 3: So tell us a little bit firstly about your friendship.
Speaker 2: How did it begin with the two of you?
Speaker 1: Well, I'll jump in first. I think the great thing
Speaker 1: is when we reflected back on it when we were
Speaker 1: writing the book, we realized that the very first time
Speaker 1: we met, I actually had my eldest she's now fourteen,
Speaker 1: but she was six months old at the time, and
Speaker 1: it was my very first meeting with Lisa. I was
Speaker 1: going to work with her on a property book. I
Speaker 1: was going to be her editor, and I tried to
Speaker 1: cancel the meeting because my babysitter fell through and I
Speaker 1: couldn't bring my baby to the meeting. This is fourteen
Speaker 1: years ago. You didn't do such things. You've pretended you
Speaker 1: didn't have children. So what I called the office to say, Hey,
Speaker 1: I've got my baby, can we just can we reschedule?
Speaker 1: Lisa said, no, just bring your baby. That's fine, And
Speaker 1: that was kind of just not the thing that was
Speaker 1: done back then. So I very quickly realized that this
Speaker 1: person was going to be not a normal you know,
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a normal workman in. And
Speaker 1: then when I met Lisa, she was warm and lovely,
Speaker 1: and that was our very first project we worked on together.
Speaker 1: Became the first of many. We ended up working on
Speaker 1: dozens of books. Then Lisa had her magazine. I worked
Speaker 1: on that, and we just became really good friends over
Speaker 1: that time as well.
Speaker 3: It's a little bit for telling, isn't it that you know, Sarah,
Speaker 3: you arrived the first meeting with Lisa with a baby
Speaker 3: in tow. I mean, who would have thought many years later,
Speaker 3: the journey that the both of you have been on.
Speaker 4: It's pretty wild, Allie, and I think that's what we
Speaker 4: reflect on a lot, and so much of why we've
Speaker 4: written the book as well. It's much more than a
Speaker 4: pregnancy book or a surrogacy or a fertility book. It's
Speaker 4: much more around the themes of you know, friendship and
Speaker 4: staying open, and you never know people that you know
Speaker 4: will enter your universe at any given stage in life.
Speaker 4: And who would have imagined that thirteen years later Sarah
Speaker 4: would be carrying my baby.
Speaker 1: So yes.
Speaker 4: In terms about professional relationship, Sarah edited I think probably
Speaker 4: the majority of the books that I I've written over
Speaker 4: the years, and I think I'm up to thirty nine
Speaker 4: or forty or someth me now, and also was one
Speaker 4: of my top writers for Collective Hub prim magazine, and
Speaker 4: so we've been in and out of each other's universes professionally,
Speaker 4: but also have had many many personal intersections which we
Speaker 4: can get into as well through the years. So by
Speaker 4: the time we got to this point, we certainly knew
Speaker 4: each other very well, although not quite as intimately.
Speaker 3: As we young to know each other, no doubt, no doubt.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 3: I was reading a bit of your book, just reminding
Speaker 3: myself this morning, the prologue. I just love how it begins.
Speaker 3: You say, Oh, you're right if you think this is
Speaker 3: a fluffy, feel good book about having a baby, We're
Speaker 3: sorry to disappoint. Fourteen years of friendship, eight years of trying,
Speaker 3: eighteen rounds of IVF one baby boy. I just think
Speaker 3: that sets you up for this incredible journey that the
Speaker 3: both of you have been on. How did the conversation
Speaker 3: first come up around surrogacy?
Speaker 4: It was it well, brob me jumping and out. Sarah
Speaker 4: and I are very much in each other's hands, and
Speaker 4: her body has been my body, so we can probably
Speaker 4: each answer everything, so I'll jump into this one. So
Speaker 4: the conversation first came up in twenty eighteen and Sarah
Speaker 4: and I were sitting in a rooftop cafe on top
Speaker 4: of the Paramount Hotel in Surrey Hills, having lunch, as
Speaker 4: we did from time to time, and I was a
Speaker 4: couple of rounds into my IBF journey and Sarah just
Speaker 4: happened to mention, which is pretty wild, you know, if
Speaker 4: you're ever interested in surrogacy, like, I'd be kind of
Speaker 4: happy to carry a baby for you. And I was like, wow,
Speaker 4: who you know? I already knew she was all kinds
Speaker 4: of amazing, but I was like, who actually says something
Speaker 4: like that? So it was amazing, And but I think
Speaker 4: we all need to come at things, you know, when
Speaker 4: we're ready. And it was actually another four years that
Speaker 4: passed until such time as we had the conversation again,
Speaker 4: and by then I was kind of really really ready
Speaker 4: and had, you know, experienced so many different avenues and
Speaker 4: paths to trying to get pregnant myself. And I feel
Speaker 4: like sometimes in life it's not like we just landed on, Hey,
Speaker 4: how are you going today? You want to carry my baby?
Speaker 4: Although finally the conversation was a little like that, but
Speaker 4: I mean it happened. It took eight years really of
Speaker 4: me trying to for pregnant naturally, adopt a child, having
Speaker 4: a miscarriage, going through two rounds of IBF with donor sperm,
Speaker 4: meeting my current partner, going through a further fourteen rounds
Speaker 4: of IVF with him and Chill. I was at a
Speaker 4: point where I was like, you know, that conversation you
Speaker 4: had four years ago, I'm kind of ready for it now.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was a lot and pretty extraordinary, So
Speaker 4: I can jump in to that piece perhaps.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think on that day when I offered it,
Speaker 1: I wasn't being very thoughtful or intentional, which is an
Speaker 1: odd thing to say when you're offering something so massive,
Speaker 1: but I it just kind of popped out. LIST was
Speaker 1: talking about IVF, and I think we were quite connected
Speaker 1: just in that moment as girlfriends talking to each other,
Speaker 1: and I kind of said, very casually, Oh, if you
Speaker 1: ever need a surrogate, I could do that. And it
Speaker 1: was a genuine offer, but it wasn't you know, we
Speaker 1: went to lunch to catch up that day. It wasn't
Speaker 1: something that was in the back of my mind where
Speaker 1: I was going, Today's the day I'm going to offer.
Speaker 1: It just kind of slipped out and then straight away
Speaker 1: Lisa was like, Oh, that's so kind, but you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm there yet, and we I kind
Speaker 1: of just punched it. From then it was like a
Speaker 1: It was a little conversation and then we didn't talk
Speaker 1: about it again for four years.
Speaker 3: And at that point, Sarah, how many you have three
Speaker 3: beautiful children? How many kids did you had? I did
Speaker 3: had when you offered to be Sarah get it that.
Speaker 1: I'd had all of my kids and I'd had a miscarriage,
Speaker 1: so I'd had my three children, and then I'd had
Speaker 1: an accidental pregnancy that ended in miscarriage. And I think
Speaker 1: because of that that really connected me even more to
Speaker 1: this unfairness. I guess with women who want to have
Speaker 1: a baby and can't and I have my three beautiful, healthy,
Speaker 1: amazing children. And here was my friend Lisa who desperately
Speaker 1: wanted a child and the odds were stacked against her.
Speaker 1: So that definitely kind of was probably the back of
Speaker 1: my mind and prompted that question to pop out.
Speaker 3: It never ceases to amaze me the the how many
Speaker 3: women you know, this idea that you can just get
Speaker 3: pregnant and you know, off you go. And some women
Speaker 3: are like that, of course, but the amount of women
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who actually hasn't probably been trying
Speaker 3: to get pregnant, had a miscarriage, has had a struggle.
Speaker 3: It's not as easy as we all as the movies
Speaker 3: kind of make us believe it to be.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's actually wild, I feel like. And that's part
Speaker 4: of the reason, well, a large part of the reason
Speaker 4: that we've written such a personal book is to really
Speaker 4: share with people because I think we're told, you know,
Speaker 4: all through our twenties, be careful, don't get pregnant, and yeah,
Speaker 4: I think so we're all kind of got the fear
Speaker 4: of you know, everything in us about oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: I did not do this. And then I feel like
Speaker 4: there needs to be a lot more education because since
Speaker 4: we've started sharing our story well before the book was
Speaker 4: even an idea really, and we started chatting to people
Speaker 4: about it. The amount of people, I mean everyone really
Speaker 4: either has been through some kind of fatility struggle themselves
Speaker 4: or absolutely know someone who has. And I think what
Speaker 4: would happen was people would come up to me or sayah,
Speaker 4: and we'd share a little bit of our story, like
Speaker 4: one on one with someone, and inever too, there would
Speaker 4: be tears from them and us, and we just realized that,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh. You know, Sarah and I are writers.
Speaker 4: That is our language, that's how we process, that's how
Speaker 4: we kind of put things out into the world. And
Speaker 4: so we just thought, Okay, let's do this, and we
Speaker 4: didn't realize just how personal we would get. But it
Speaker 4: is all in there, and I think, or we think
Speaker 4: and hope that it will impact and help so many people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it will.
Speaker 3: Lisa eighteen rounds of IVF. That is, I can't imagine
Speaker 3: the toll because it's people don't understand. It's a physical
Speaker 3: toll as well, with the hormone injections, everything that you
Speaker 3: go through in order to attempt that IVF process. How
Speaker 3: though emotionally and mentally did you deal with that, because
Speaker 3: that is that is a rollercoaster that is so wild
Speaker 3: and so challenging to be on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you. I feel like I've almost somehow desensitized
Speaker 4: myself from it now mentalized it, but definitely writing a
Speaker 4: book relived every moment. And then we recorded the audiobook
Speaker 4: and I just was crying, going kind of like empathy
Speaker 4: and compassion for myself going through all of that. I
Speaker 4: think mindset is one of the biggest pieces because and
Speaker 4: I've been writing books for twenty years actually this month
Speaker 4: ironically in a way, and a lot of them have
Speaker 4: been around mindset and overcoming adversity and positive psychology and
Speaker 4: you know, so I've been teaching myself and doing a
Speaker 4: lot of therapy for years and years and years. I
Speaker 4: did sixteen rounds of IVF. Myself said it two rounds.
Speaker 4: It does take a massive toll emotionally, physically, and financially,
Speaker 4: and I think it's probably worth unpacking those a little bit,
Speaker 4: either for people in the trenches or for people who
Speaker 4: don't really understand the magnitude of it so emotionally, because
Speaker 4: there are so many pieces around that. I think as
Speaker 4: an innate problem solver and someone who just has had
Speaker 4: my own business for twenty three years. I see something
Speaker 4: and I'm like, well, yeah, I'll you know, if that
Speaker 4: door doesn't open, I'll do that, or if I can't
Speaker 4: do that, I'll do that. So I'm so used to
Speaker 4: doing that, but when it's your body and it's sort
Speaker 4: of largely beyond your control, emotionally, it takes a real
Speaker 4: toll because a you know, firstly, I was petrified of
Speaker 4: needles when I started this, and I've worked out I've
Speaker 4: injected myself something like four hundred and eighty times. So emotionally,
Speaker 4: it's a lot jumping on and off planes and stages
Speaker 4: and things. So then you're flying around with needles and
Speaker 4: medications that need to be kept on ice and so
Speaker 4: I need from doctors, so and so emotionally, I was
Speaker 4: doing a lot of a solo in hotel rooms. The
Speaker 4: medications you need to take for me, protocols are slightly
Speaker 4: different for everyone. But twice the day every day for
Speaker 4: sort of sometimes ten days. Now that meant you can
Speaker 4: choose any time eight am and apm ten am ten pm.
Speaker 4: But because it goes for ten days, I might be
Speaker 4: on a stage or you know, on a something something,
Speaker 4: so I'm you know, inhaling things or injecting myself in
Speaker 4: different bathrooms. Emotionally also, which jumps into the physicality of it.
Speaker 4: I am someone from a mindset perspective who needs to train,
Speaker 4: you know, like I move my body for my mindset
Speaker 4: as much as for my body. And every single time
Speaker 4: you put an embryo in, you not meantor so my
Speaker 4: clinic said, train or do any exercise or get your
Speaker 4: heart rate up for two weeks after So sixteen times,
Speaker 4: for two weeks at a time, thirty two weeks, I've
Speaker 4: not been able to move my body. And then emotionally
Speaker 4: and physically, it's like the two week waiting period of
Speaker 4: you know, they put the embryo in, and then it's like,
Speaker 4: am I going to get pregnant? So sixteen times I
Speaker 4: heard the words not this time, You're not pregnant this time.
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of emotional and physical and financially
Speaker 4: IVF alone in Australia costs between generally for US anyway,
Speaker 4: ten to twelve thousand dollars per round per round, and
Speaker 4: plus all of the other everything else that goes around that.
Speaker 4: I mean, I had several polyps removed and other operations
Speaker 4: and things throughout. Plus I saw, in conjunction with the IVF,
Speaker 4: a whole lot of different natural paths and blah blah
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. So we are very fortunate, and I
Speaker 4: do not take it lightly that we are in a
Speaker 4: financial position that we could do this. However, it has
Speaker 4: come with massive sacrifices for both my partner Stephen and I.
Speaker 4: We sold our family home to fund it, and we're
Speaker 4: still in a pretty big hole financially. Luckily we know
Speaker 4: how to make money, but it took a big toll
Speaker 4: there as well. But I did meet someone a couple
Speaker 4: of weeks ago who said to me that she and
Speaker 4: her husband saved up for ten years to do one
Speaker 4: round of IBF. So I really don't take it lightly.
Speaker 4: We've been extraordinarily fortunate that we've been able to do that,
Speaker 4: and I'll just leave you with this. Stephen did say
Speaker 4: to me at one point, you know, if we want
Speaker 4: a baby and that is the end result, then it
Speaker 4: doesn't matter if it costs a dollar or a million dollars,
Speaker 4: and it certainly costs He certainly costs the latter, and
Speaker 4: Little Kgo is at work as we speak making the
Speaker 4: money back but I mean, I think it's really important
Speaker 4: for anyone, Like if there's something you want more than
Speaker 4: almost anything on the planet, then you know, you sacrifice anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if there's anything. I mean, I
Speaker 3: wanted to be a mom from the age of five,
Speaker 3: so I would have been doing anything I could have
Speaker 3: possibly have done. Sarah, for you, what's been some of
Speaker 3: the most challenging experiences. We'll get to the rewarding experiences
Speaker 3: as well, but what was the challenging experiences for you
Speaker 3: and being the surrogate for Hugo and Lisa.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the physicality of it was really
Speaker 1: different because I had my children when I was in
Speaker 1: my I was twenty eight when I had my first daughter,
Speaker 1: and in my early thirties when I had my next children.
Speaker 1: So I found being pregnant at forty one was a
Speaker 1: whole new experience. The physicality of it that, you know,
Speaker 1: my body was older and I now had three children.
Speaker 1: I kind of underestimated just how much energy it would
Speaker 1: take to be working full time and have three kids
Speaker 1: and be pregnant. But all of that was, you know,
Speaker 1: in every step of it. You know, at the very
Speaker 1: beginning when I sat with my husband and said I'd
Speaker 1: like to do this. We kind of ran through all
Speaker 1: of those scenarios. We were like, what if, what if
Speaker 1: this happens? What if that happens? What if you His
Speaker 1: big kind of concerns at the beginning, where what if
Speaker 1: you get sick? What if something happens to you? The
Speaker 1: law is really clear in Australia that the mother's kind
Speaker 1: of life is always the first priority. So that gave
Speaker 1: him some peace of mind because he was like, what
Speaker 1: if something happens and our kids end up without a mother?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, you were never worried when I
Speaker 1: was pregnant with them that I was going to suddenly
Speaker 1: die in childbirth.
Speaker 3: I think, so why you can had a bit of
Speaker 3: a scare though, like twenty six, twenty seven weeks though,
Speaker 3: didn't you?
Speaker 1: We did? We did, We had had a moment, but
Speaker 1: we I think we ran through all of those things,
Speaker 1: like what happens if I get sick? What happens if
Speaker 1: I'm I have a friend who had a you know,
Speaker 1: a cervical stitch at nineteen weeks and on bed rest
Speaker 1: for the rest of our pregnancy. So we talked about
Speaker 1: all of those scenarios and what happens if and when
Speaker 1: we were doing that, there was nothing that we came
Speaker 1: to that we decided, oh that's a deal breaker. Like
Speaker 1: there was no scenario, no outcome that was so bad
Speaker 1: that we went, oh, well, we can't risk that, so
Speaker 1: we're going to have to pull out. Like every scenario
Speaker 1: that we came up with, there was a solution to it,
Speaker 1: like if I get sick, then I'll take some time
Speaker 1: off work. If I need support, we'll have to get
Speaker 1: the support. Like we just kind of worked through it
Speaker 1: all because I make decisions like this, this is obviously
Speaker 1: really big one. But the way I live my life
Speaker 1: is to always think in rocking chair moments, and when
Speaker 1: I'm eighty and I'm on my rocking chair, or maybe
Speaker 1: not even eighty, maybe I did, but when I'm on
Speaker 1: my rocking chair and looking back at my life, you know,
Speaker 1: what are the moments that are going to stand out
Speaker 1: and that I'm really grateful for And in the adventures
Speaker 1: I had, in the times I said yes, And this
Speaker 1: was definitely one of those, And there was no there
Speaker 1: was no negative outcome that was so big that it
Speaker 1: was enough to say no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful, and your husband was besides your you know,
Speaker 3: the concern for your health? Was there ever that concern
Speaker 3: that I mean, this is probably a really common question
Speaker 3: that a lot of mums or other women might ask
Speaker 3: that you know, you would become so attached to Hugo
Speaker 3: that you wouldn't want to then hand him to Lisa,
Speaker 3: Like was that? I mean, how do you work with
Speaker 3: that mindset?
Speaker 1: I guess you.
Speaker 3: I guess you were already in it from the moment
Speaker 3: you offered.
Speaker 2: You offered yourself.
Speaker 1: And I think that is probably the most common question
Speaker 1: I get asked, And especially when I was pregnant, when
Speaker 1: I would say to people it's not my baby, it's
Speaker 1: my friend's baby. People would say, oh my god. While
Speaker 1: I was like heavily pregnant. They would say, what if
Speaker 1: you can't hand him over? And I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: it's now wait here. But really I knew going into it,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of you know, some of
Speaker 1: my friends said to me like, I just couldn't. I
Speaker 1: just know that I couldn't do it, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's great, you know you should never be yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: But for me, I was really clear. We had great
Speaker 1: boundaries from the beginning, and my husband actually suggested from
Speaker 1: the beginning, he said, I won't come to the scans
Speaker 1: and appointments because he said, the only time I've ever
Speaker 1: done that in the past was for our children, and
Speaker 1: I don't know how I'll react being there seeing a
Speaker 1: baby growing inside your tummy and it's not ours. So
Speaker 1: let's just put that boundary in place. That was fantastic
Speaker 1: and really helpful. He also suggested, let's call it your pregnancy,
Speaker 1: but Lisa's baby, and that became a really great boundary
Speaker 1: from the beginning too. So I would come home from
Speaker 1: the obstetrician and say, hey, Lisa's baby's doing really well.
Speaker 1: It's sixteen weeks. You know, we saw X y Z
Speaker 1: today And that kind of words are so important, and
Speaker 1: that language really helped us have really clear boundaries. And
Speaker 1: I also think the fact that we explained everything to
Speaker 1: our kids, we kept them so involved in all of it,
Speaker 1: meant there was no secrets. There was no opportunity for
Speaker 1: anything to fester or to you know, to get over.
Speaker 1: We were just really open and communicating so constantly that
Speaker 1: there was no there was no time that I was
Speaker 1: sitting there secretly pining, going, oh Christmas, I wish we
Speaker 1: had another little baby under the tree with us, because
Speaker 1: I knew the goal was to get Lisa that baby,
Speaker 1: you know that that was what we were focused on.
Speaker 1: So it was pretty clear bound you and I didn't
Speaker 1: have to hand him over Lisa.
Speaker 3: Card Lisa, were you there for every single scan?
Speaker 4: Every single scan? Yes, And it was the most you know,
Speaker 4: I think we have an amazing way of you know,
Speaker 4: forgetting about hardships because I was seeing those nine months
Speaker 4: or whatever it was together. We're just the most magical,
Speaker 4: magical moments. And Sarah and I we would laugh and
Speaker 4: we still do it. We would be either on a
Speaker 4: FaceTime you know, when we were I was always physically
Speaker 4: at the scans, but otherwise every single day we're the
Speaker 4: facetiming on dming on Instagram or texting or calling and
Speaker 4: often multiple things simultaneously. But yeah, I very much treated
Speaker 4: it as my pregnancy, and so every single scan I
Speaker 4: was say, what was beautiful and amazing about that is
Speaker 4: And it's the weirdest thing, but all of those years
Speaker 4: of trying to get pregnant, I had never let myself
Speaker 4: go beyond what would happen when they said you're pregnant,
Speaker 4: And so it was amazing having like the best girlfriend
Speaker 4: in the room with obstitrition because between her and doctor Drew,
Speaker 4: they would explain to me because I was like, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, what now, what happens now? I would be like, well,
Speaker 4: this is what we do because I know it sounds
Speaker 4: kind of wild wanting to be a month for so long,
Speaker 4: but I just didn't know what happened beyond the moment
Speaker 4: when they were like, you're pregnant. So Sarah really was
Speaker 4: incredible having been there three times. Or she'd be like,
Speaker 4: this is what we're doing now. So yeah, it was
Speaker 4: really I can't even explain how much fun, like say,
Speaker 4: the little heartbeat together or you know, all of the
Speaker 4: things that we did together through that time was just
Speaker 4: so beautiful.
Speaker 3: And of course, I mean the impact on your friendship
Speaker 3: you can't put you I don't know if there's any
Speaker 3: words you can put to that is there is there
Speaker 3: any words you can put to what that did to
Speaker 3: a friendship that you know there you are sharing the
Speaker 3: most miraculous thing that you can probably share.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if I've ever felt as close to
Speaker 4: anyone in my life or as grateful and just it
Speaker 4: was just fun. It was like all of the previous
Speaker 4: years of heartache and hardship and lost just almost disintegrated,
Speaker 4: and that nine months kind of trumped everything and the
Speaker 4: time since. I mean, it's actually beautiful, you know, it's
Speaker 4: just it's all, it's all amazing.
Speaker 2: What can you walk us through?
Speaker 3: So Okay, So you go into labor, Sarah, and you're
Speaker 3: pretty sure it's labor. I know you were. You had
Speaker 3: sort of a bit of an oas this labor you
Speaker 3: know earlier on, but it wasn't.
Speaker 2: It was a kidney infection.
Speaker 1: But what.
Speaker 3: You go into labor? What's your steps? Can you walk
Speaker 3: us through?
Speaker 1: Yes, I had I've obviously I've done it three times before,
Speaker 1: so I was pretty sure when I was in labor.
Speaker 1: And the false start you're talking about was when I
Speaker 1: had a kidney infection at twenty seven weeks and I
Speaker 1: knew I wasn't in labor, but it really hurts, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I've got this excruciating pain, but it's
Speaker 1: not coming from the right place. When I knew I
Speaker 1: was in labor, it was quite surreal because I woke
Speaker 1: up at midnight, it was exactly midnight, and I felt
Speaker 1: a click and I felt a gush of water Anyone
Speaker 1: who's ever had a water break moment knows what that's like.
Speaker 1: I'd always wanted one of those movie moments where you're
Speaker 1: like at the shops and you have a big gush
Speaker 1: and it's all crazy and everyone's like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: I always wanted one of them. I'm so dramatic, but
Speaker 1: I never had one. So this was just a little
Speaker 1: moment in the middle of the night, and I lay
Speaker 1: there for a couple of minutes, going is this happening?
Speaker 1: Because it wasn't like previous times where I just nudged
Speaker 1: my husband and say let's go. This time, I was like, so,
Speaker 1: we have to call my mum to come over and
Speaker 1: watch my kids. We have to call the obstitucian to
Speaker 1: let him know to come. We have to call his
Speaker 1: parents to let them know they're about to become parents.
Speaker 1: So I kind of lay there for a minute, going
Speaker 1: is it happening? And then a contraction started and I went, oh, yep,
Speaker 1: it's happening. So then everything started. From that point. That
Speaker 1: was midnight, and Lisa caught him at three point thirty eight,
Speaker 1: so it was less than four hours from that moment
Speaker 1: to him arriving.
Speaker 2: So fast.
Speaker 4: She's fast, and we knew we were always prepared. Sarah, yeah,
Speaker 4: said when it's onlent and silent. So stupid, right, even
Speaker 4: though we only live like an hour and fifteen away
Speaker 4: from Sarah and similar to the hospital we came up
Speaker 4: a week before. He was juicer that we want very close,
Speaker 4: close enough for me. But the funny thing is we
Speaker 4: did like a stretch and sweep on the Wednesday, which is,
Speaker 4: you know, meant to sort of try and induce labor,
Speaker 4: and then nothing. And so every night Tuesday night, Wednesday night,
Speaker 4: Thursday night, I packed and unpacked and I was like
Speaker 4: so ready and hypervigila.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: By Friday, we're Stephen and I were saying the QT.
Speaker 4: And by Friday we were like, okay, let's all have Sarah,
Speaker 4: David and the three kids and let's just have a
Speaker 4: beautiful weekend, buy the pool. Clearly, hugoes not ready to
Speaker 4: make his presence know one, into the world, and we
Speaker 4: were going to have it. We're going to be induced
Speaker 4: the following Tuesday. So Friday night I didn't pack and
Speaker 4: I was just like very kind of you know, oh well,
Speaker 4: and then midnight or just after, we get the call
Speaker 4: from David and he's he's a radio announcer, so in
Speaker 4: the radio voice that was like, this is the call
Speaker 4: you've been waiting for God your nary to be yes,
Speaker 4: Oh my god, this this is it. And so we
Speaker 4: just raced. But it all happened really fast, and so
Speaker 4: it was the most beautiful, amazing thing. And also there
Speaker 4: were some very comical moments because Sarah had never had
Speaker 4: I mean, she's like some kind of superhero in so
Speaker 4: many ways, but she never had a what are they
Speaker 4: called the thing the jupy.
Speaker 2: Durl no I.
Speaker 1: Labor too fast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So she never had an api durol. And then
Speaker 4: this time we were in the shower and so I
Speaker 4: was like, I think I might have an ampi dural
Speaker 4: this time. So she had one, but it didn't kick
Speaker 4: in until about I don't know, maybe forty minutes or
Speaker 4: something after Hugo was born. So she was like we
Speaker 4: were like lying opposite her with Hugo on our chests
Speaker 4: and says, leg kept falling off the bed. She had
Speaker 4: control and she kept me like can you pick up
Speaker 4: my legs? Like picking her leg backing off onto the bed.
Speaker 4: And the comical thing is someone had grabbed one of
Speaker 4: our phones, thank goodness, and been taken taking all the photos.
Speaker 1: And there is a.
Speaker 4: Photo of me with my hand on Sarah's shoulder because
Speaker 4: there's a clock above the bed at three point thirty
Speaker 4: four am. And then Hugo was born at three thirty
Speaker 4: eight am. So it happened. She was like he's coming,
Speaker 4: and Doctor Drew constituition was outside eating cheese and biscuits,
Speaker 4: and it was like on and again I thought, oh,
Speaker 4: I'll you know, I've got my beautiful bikini on. I'm gonna,
Speaker 4: you know, wash my hands. I'm gonna look hot and amazing.
Speaker 4: And then it was a broom and like no hand watching.
Speaker 4: I'm still in some woolen jumper and Doctor Drew is
Speaker 4: like biscuits coming out of He's like cat. And then
Speaker 4: there was my baby, my oh gosh, yeah, oh how
Speaker 4: I mean?
Speaker 3: And then so that moment where he lays on your Lisa,
Speaker 3: What was that like for you?
Speaker 4: You can't I get so emotional because it's like, oh,
Speaker 4: so many things, because I think Ali I had this
Speaker 4: thought that I don't know what it's from the movies
Speaker 4: or something, that he would be ripped away from me
Speaker 4: and like taken into another room to be like weighed
Speaker 4: and washed and something and so, but literally I was
Speaker 4: the first person to hold him and the only person
Speaker 4: to hold him. And then we had very specifically said
Speaker 4: can we have a sofa bed opposite Sarah's bed so
Speaker 4: we could lie down and I could have the same
Speaker 4: experience as I would if I had have birthed him.
Speaker 4: And yeah, no one took him away. He came straight
Speaker 4: and lay on my chest and it's like, oh, I
Speaker 4: just I can't even Yeah, like the most amazing thing.
Speaker 4: And then as soon as you know, we'd had a
Speaker 4: little cuddle and Sayah had been sticked up, I took
Speaker 4: Hugo over and put him on stairs chest and just
Speaker 4: like that moment together it was just so beautiful. And
Speaker 4: for Stephen and he's always a bit like, hey, how
Speaker 4: about me, because I'd be like, in a way, Sarah,
Speaker 4: I like got so much closer throughout that whole time
Speaker 4: than Stephen, and I sure, and I couldn't wait to
Speaker 4: run over there and be like look at her baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you.
Speaker 2: I know. Did Stephen cut the cord? Did he do that?
Speaker 4: He did cut the court? Yeah, And he was really
Speaker 4: squeamish about that. He was almost like why do I
Speaker 4: get that job?
Speaker 5: But he.
Speaker 4: Astermined that Hugo, you know, come to me first, so
Speaker 4: he did cut the cord. And the funny thing is
Speaker 4: Ali the last few days he goes his what's today's state?
Speaker 4: He's fifteen months in two days as we're recording this,
Speaker 4: and he's just outed like being really fascinated about bodily
Speaker 4: body types or body bits, and I just started pointing
Speaker 4: to my belly button and his belly button like literally
Speaker 4: two days ago. So I keep saying, you know, that's
Speaker 4: where Daddy cut you away from. Sarah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild, Sarah.
Speaker 3: For you, how has it been watching your dear friend
Speaker 3: with Hugo, you know, knowing that this is the gift
Speaker 3: that you've given to Lisa and Steven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's so interesting. The journey has been
Speaker 1: incredible from the beginning, and the main feeling for me
Speaker 1: when he was born was relief because I so wanted
Speaker 1: to be the piece of the puzzle that helped them
Speaker 1: get this beautiful baby that they'd been longing for. And
Speaker 1: I can remember the feeling when he was out was
Speaker 1: just like absolute relief flooded me. The double of I
Speaker 1: never have to give birth again and they have their
Speaker 1: beautiful baby, and it was like it was like a
Speaker 1: literal and you know, hypothetical, like passing of the bat,
Speaker 1: like I'd done my job and now here you go.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of women can resonate with
Speaker 1: this idea that a pregnancy feels like you're coming to
Speaker 1: a finish line. And you give birth and then you
Speaker 1: have a baby, it like starts again. This whole new
Speaker 1: world starts again. And it's been amazing from Afar watching them,
Speaker 1: you know, just sink into parenthood and they're both amazing parents,
Speaker 1: so loving and doting, and he is just an adorable
Speaker 1: little man, and my kids get along really well with him.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful to kind of just see their relationship grow
Speaker 1: as well. They call him their brotheren, their brother cousin,
Speaker 1: and it's really nice to have that beautiful young energy
Speaker 1: around again. I think I'm in such a different phase
Speaker 1: of parenting. You know, my kids are teenagers and pre
Speaker 1: teenagers and hugoes one and running around. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: whole different ballgame.
Speaker 4: And there's so many dualities which has been fascinating, like
Speaker 4: which so many people wouldn't think about. But just a
Speaker 4: few little things like when Sarah was carrying Hugo, she
Speaker 4: was obviously pregnant, so people would be like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: you're pregnant. Congratulations, So she was constantly having to say, oh, yes,
Speaker 4: but it's not my baby. And then I would say
Speaker 4: because I always felt like I was pregnant, so I'd
Speaker 4: be like, oh my gosh, I'm seven months pregnant and
Speaker 4: people would be like, wow, you really and then things
Speaker 4: around the bath. Like Sarah said, I was able finally
Speaker 4: to get like my fittest, strongest, healthiest self ready for
Speaker 4: when the baton was passed, so that be, you know,
Speaker 4: my strongest version of me for Hugo. So where Sarah
Speaker 4: could actually have the baby and then be like, well
Speaker 4: I was going to say relaxed. Yeah right, yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: so open, but like this, Yeah, there's so many different
Speaker 4: sort of things going on all the time which people
Speaker 4: often wouldn't necessarily consider.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess the one thing that you probably were
Speaker 3: able to do, Sarah was actually go home and sleep,
Speaker 3: which is probably Lisa, you didn't not well, actually you're.
Speaker 4: Born, Sarah. That was the plan, and she said to
Speaker 4: her kids like, Okay, mom was going to take some
Speaker 4: time off, but kids don't really like mom. I want this, mom,
Speaker 4: I've worked out quite how she I.
Speaker 1: In my head, I thought my work was really amazing
Speaker 1: and gave me six weeks of leave to recover. And
Speaker 1: in my head, I thought six weeks, I'm like not
Speaker 1: going to know myself. Six weeks off with no baby,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to relax, and like, honestly, what was
Speaker 1: I thinking. I was in a hormoneer I don't know,
Speaker 1: mental phase, but I ended up. I think out of
Speaker 1: that six weeks, I had one day where I didn't
Speaker 1: have a medical appointment or my kids weren't sick. I
Speaker 1: had one day of rest. No, that is the plight
Speaker 1: of a working farm. I was delusional. I think it
Speaker 1: was going to be any.
Speaker 4: I was spending quite a lot of time together whenever
Speaker 4: we could through that time as well, Like I think
Speaker 4: when we left the hospital, because we had two rooms
Speaker 4: next to each other for four days, so it was
Speaker 4: like yeah, beautiful, big loving, and we left, it was
Speaker 4: a bit like no. So like three days later, I
Speaker 4: think it's three days later, Sarah, David and the kids
Speaker 4: came down, and yeah, we were a bit inseparable as
Speaker 4: much as possible through that time.
Speaker 3: If it's if it's okay, to ask, did you how
Speaker 3: did you work the did you breast? Did you use
Speaker 3: breast milk Lisa, or did you go straight to formula
Speaker 3: or no?
Speaker 4: And it's fine to ask, and it's fascinating.
Speaker 5: So I was told that there is a protocol that
Speaker 5: you can use to induce breast milk, even though I've
Speaker 5: not carried my own baby.
Speaker 4: But what that would entail was something like going on
Speaker 4: the pill for like four months in the Leader, which
Speaker 4: just seemed so wildly ironic for me that I'd spent
Speaker 4: all this time off the pill trying to get pregnant,
Speaker 4: and then on top of that, I'd also have to
Speaker 4: go on another hormone and Alie, to be honest, after
Speaker 4: eight years of hormones and pumping myself full of whatever.
Speaker 1: Your body didn't know it was doing that. Yeah, but the.
Speaker 4: Wild thing is and nature versus nurture, nature versus nature,
Speaker 4: whatever whatever you want to call it. But my left
Speaker 4: breast actually started producing milk. So I think it's because
Speaker 4: I always carry Hugh. His head was always on the
Speaker 4: left side of me from the get go. That's just
Speaker 4: the way that I carried him, and I think my
Speaker 4: breast must have been like, Okay, it's on. It's a
Speaker 4: little munch a yere who wants to lunch. So that
Speaker 4: was pretty wild. So I did put him on my
Speaker 4: boob a little bit, but it just I don't know,
Speaker 4: I just well, Also there's a bit of a selfish
Speaker 4: reason around this. Stephen doesn't need a lot of sleep,
Speaker 4: and he's like for ours sleep at night, and I
Speaker 4: love my sleep. So putting him on a bottle also
Speaker 4: meant that Stephen, God love him, was able to do
Speaker 4: the majority of the night feeds. So yeah, so we
Speaker 4: pretty much went to bottle.
Speaker 3: So is that an actual So without taking any hormones,
Speaker 3: your body started to create breast milk. Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 3: is amazing.
Speaker 4: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: Women's bodies are incredible, and I think.
Speaker 4: It's a little bit of a medical phenomena. And I
Speaker 4: feel quite proud because I remember when Meya Fried when
Speaker 4: interviewed Sarah and I early on on her podcast, and
Speaker 4: she was like can you do this? And then she
Speaker 4: was like, oh, well, of course you'll be able to, Like,
Speaker 4: you know, because I'm like the groot over a cheaber.
Speaker 4: I always find a way to do it right. I'm
Speaker 4: proud when you know, never for a moment thinking my body,
Speaker 4: would she do it? I was like, huh loo, can
Speaker 4: we go? I think you're right though. It is extraordinary
Speaker 4: how connected I felt to my pregnancy and Sarah and
Speaker 4: I are very been on languaging as you might have noticed,
Speaker 4: but throughout and it is extraordinary how in sync our
Speaker 4: bodies were at various times, like crazy kind of stuff
Speaker 4: would happen. So whilst I was surprised, I also wasn't
Speaker 4: surprised in a way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're finding out more and more about breast milk.
Speaker 3: I was reading something the other day how the antibodies
Speaker 3: in breast milk actually adjust to the babies. If the
Speaker 3: baby is ill, the antibodies will actually adjust in order
Speaker 3: to give the right antibodies to that baby as they're
Speaker 3: to help them heal whatever they're if they're you know,
Speaker 3: some kind of illn.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's extraordinary. You can see the different color
Speaker 1: actually in women who I've never had any luck expressing,
Speaker 1: but women who express the color of the milk changes.
Speaker 1: It changes depending on the kids, if they're sick, it
Speaker 1: changes as they get older and the nutrients they need
Speaker 1: a different It is absolutely incredible. Our bodies are amazing
Speaker 1: And the flip side of that was my milk actually
Speaker 1: came in. I did everything I could to avoid it.
Speaker 1: I took medication and I strapped myself. And about five
Speaker 1: days after he was born, it came in in a
Speaker 1: big way, and I called the obstetrician and I was like,
Speaker 1: what do I do because I've been so much pain.
Speaker 1: You know, anyone that's done it knows they just fill
Speaker 1: up and it's rock hard. And he said, do not
Speaker 1: touch them, do not get any hot water on them.
Speaker 1: And I was like, are you kidding me? All I
Speaker 1: want to do is go have a shower and just
Speaker 1: like relieve the pain. And he said, no, you can't
Speaker 1: touch them. You can't stimulate them at all because that
Speaker 1: will just put just more milk, because that's what you know,
Speaker 1: what happens with the baby. So I had to wear
Speaker 1: like a double sportspra for about two weeks to just strap.
Speaker 2: It all the ground hole.
Speaker 1: It is incredible. Two weeks later it had all just
Speaker 1: settled down and gone away, just absorbed back into your body,
Speaker 1: Like what an incredible.
Speaker 4: She did try to because we were going to use
Speaker 4: the colostrum, So say I did try and.
Speaker 1: Express that never have luck with expressing.
Speaker 4: Did I actually yeah, but we decided to not go
Speaker 4: any further than that sort of you know, draw the
Speaker 4: laundary around all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: So at what point do you decide, Okay, this is
Speaker 3: a book? Was this pre even getting pregnant Sarah, or
Speaker 3: was it like what did you both decide this is.
Speaker 1: I mean, not before getting pregnant, but certainly from really early.
Speaker 1: Lisa and I both process our worlds through writing. I've
Speaker 1: always been a writer and a journalist, so really early
Speaker 1: in the pregnancy, I was journaling the thoughts and feelings
Speaker 1: around it. And the more the more that we shared,
Speaker 1: the more that people kind of reached out, and the
Speaker 1: more that we realized there was a story in it.
Speaker 1: And Lisa, Lisa is always an open book with her life.
Speaker 1: She's written lots of books about different parts of her life.
Speaker 1: So we kind of quite early in the pregnancy thought
Speaker 1: that there was an idea here, but we then kind
Speaker 1: of parked it a little bit while we focused on
Speaker 1: the pregnancy tours. And when I was almost due with
Speaker 1: him was when we really kind of solidified it and went,
Speaker 1: let's let's do something with this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a few pieces around that. Yes, my
Speaker 4: life has been quite literally an open books. Something happens,
Speaker 4: you know, I share about it, and you share the
Speaker 4: lessons lanned and help people to apply it to their
Speaker 4: own lives. And Stephen is extraordinarily on me private, Sarah,
Speaker 4: David and I lead relatively public lives in a way,
Speaker 4: but Stephen is, you know, extremely private and never wants
Speaker 4: to share anything about anything. And so but it was
Speaker 4: actually him who said you should do this, or you
Speaker 4: should start sharing, because he realized early on the impact
Speaker 4: it was having on people and just how much we
Speaker 4: could really help people. It's funny we did a we
Speaker 4: signed a deal a month before Hugo.
Speaker 1: Was born a week actually it was a week before.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then but we didn't so that was July
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three. He was born on the twenty second
Speaker 4: of July, and we didn't have to deliver the manuscript
Speaker 4: until February. And it's funny because by then I had
Speaker 4: Hugo for quite a long time, and I started going, oh,
Speaker 4: do I really want to share this, like I'm having
Speaker 4: such a beautiful time. Part of we just forget like
Speaker 4: all of this eight years prior and everything, But it
Speaker 4: was such a beautiful thing writing it together. Sarah and
Speaker 4: I sat opposite each other and in a in a
Speaker 4: shared Google document, and we just tiptoed off each other
Speaker 4: the whole time. And it was so beautiful. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I think it's going to help so many people. I
Speaker 4: did say I'd never write I've written two very very
Speaker 4: very personal books before, and I swear I would never
Speaker 4: write another personal book. I think it must help so
Speaker 4: many people, so I'm happy to put it out there,
Speaker 4: and also for you though, you know, like we were
Speaker 4: very conscious that, you know, are we sharing too much?
Speaker 4: Is this the right thing to do by him? But
Speaker 4: I think it's beautiful that his journey is documented.
Speaker 3: Oh I mean, imagine when he's out of an age
Speaker 3: where he can read that book and know what you
Speaker 3: went through because you know the obviously, yeah, details get
Speaker 3: fuzy fuzzy, but of course you've put so much into
Speaker 3: the book and to be able to read that about
Speaker 3: how desperately wanted this little boy is and was you know,
Speaker 3: is such a treat such a treat for him? I'm
Speaker 3: sure is there something that you found Is there sort
Speaker 3: of advice for people in the sense of things not
Speaker 3: to say to people going.
Speaker 2: Through your experience?
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've had lots of people weigh in on it.
Speaker 3: Is there something that you would rather people not say
Speaker 3: to either of you?
Speaker 4: Yeah. In fact, we share almost a chapter I think
Speaker 4: Sarah in the Book of Experiences around what not to say,
Speaker 4: and I think people are well meaning for the most part.
Speaker 4: And it's also what's become very much. You know, our
Speaker 4: normal isn't normal for everyone, and I think people are
Speaker 4: quite fascinated. And also if we choose to share this
Speaker 4: part of our lives, then you know, we are also
Speaker 4: opening ourselves up for lines of questioning. There are a
Speaker 4: lot of things around Well, the one thing that I
Speaker 4: got asked every single time, which I won't share what
Speaker 4: the answer is on here, but every single time when
Speaker 4: I said, you know, my friend is carrying my baby,
Speaker 4: people would be like, oh, is it your egg? Like
Speaker 4: every single time, which was really jarring because I was like, whoa,
Speaker 4: So that kind of Yeah, other things I would say
Speaker 4: around IVF, for sure, everyone has an opinion and it's
Speaker 4: people will say things like, oh, well, just relax more,
Speaker 4: or well, of course you can't get pregnant, look at
Speaker 4: your lifestyle. But I mean that lifestyle fair enough and
Speaker 4: probably right to a certain degree. But my lifestyle of
Speaker 4: on or off plane speaking. I get paid a lot
Speaker 4: of money to speak, and I was like, something's going
Speaker 4: to fund this, IVF, It's not gonna So I think
Speaker 4: what I always say is, you know, offer, I'm open
Speaker 4: to feedback from people with actual experience in an area,
Speaker 4: but actually a lot of it isn't helpful, Like have
Speaker 4: you tried this? Yeah, I've tried that probably seventy times.
Speaker 4: Thank you. So yeah, I think there's a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: I think Least is right in that most people are
Speaker 1: well intentioned, and also we're very clunky when trying to
Speaker 1: make people feel better, and we don't mean to be,
Speaker 1: so we say clunky things sometimes. And I had this
Speaker 1: experience when my dad died and lots of people were
Speaker 1: trying to be well meaning. So I always took their
Speaker 1: intentions and the kindness with what they were trying to say.
Speaker 1: But when people say things that start with at least,
Speaker 1: almost anything that comes after that is really diminishing. At
Speaker 1: least he's out of pain now, or at least he
Speaker 1: got to be in his or he was seventy nine.
Speaker 1: At least he made it to seventy nine. When I
Speaker 1: had a miscarriage. You know, people would say, oh, at
Speaker 1: least you've got other children. When someone said at least
Speaker 1: you don't have to stay up all night and change
Speaker 1: poe nappies, and I was like, oh, but I really
Speaker 1: wanted to exactly, I really wanted the nappies. And people
Speaker 1: are really well intentioned, they're trying to make you feel better,
Speaker 1: but what you really want in those moments is for
Speaker 1: just someone to say, you know, are you okay? And
Speaker 1: what can I do for you? Do you need anything?
Speaker 1: Can I give you a hug? Can I drop a
Speaker 1: full asagnya? You just want people to show up.
Speaker 4: And actually we went one layer deeper in the book
Speaker 4: because it's something ale. It's a great question. Sarah and
Speaker 4: I really reflected on it and part of what we
Speaker 4: came up with because our dad's actually died, which we
Speaker 4: talk about in the book, that we've had lots of
Speaker 4: shared experiences. They died three months apart to the day,
Speaker 4: and so we went, you know, we kind of unpacked
Speaker 4: what had happened around that as well, and what we
Speaker 4: decided for both of us and so many people around
Speaker 4: us was sometimes just do the thing like don't ask
Speaker 4: or you know, saying every day, are you okay? Are
Speaker 4: you okay? It's kind of like, yep, no, I'm not okay,
Speaker 4: But like so sometimes just drop the lasign your over
Speaker 4: or just do the thing take.
Speaker 3: And it's like when someone says what do you need
Speaker 3: in that moment, you don't know you need.
Speaker 2: You're so deep in grief and.
Speaker 1: It becomes another thing. Yes, I actually just had one
Speaker 1: of my best girlfriends just lost her mum recently and
Speaker 1: it was horrible and very fast and when it happened,
Speaker 1: I just showed up literally in Melbourne. I just turned
Speaker 1: up when she needed me. But also the worst thing
Speaker 1: in those moments can be someone saying what do you need?
Speaker 1: How can I help? Because you were in the worst
Speaker 1: phase of your life and now you're having to show
Speaker 1: up for someone else. So what you really want from
Speaker 1: someone is not let me know what you need from me.
Speaker 1: You just need simple answers. Do you want a lasagna
Speaker 1: or a spark ll like, what do you want for
Speaker 1: dinner tomorrow? Or how can I help with your kids?
Speaker 1: But I'm available Saturday? Do you want me to come
Speaker 1: and do your laundry for you or take the kids out? Like,
Speaker 1: just give people some just show up with support, because
Speaker 1: if the person doesn't want it, they'll just write back
Speaker 1: and say thank you so much. I'm all good for
Speaker 1: this weekend, but I appreciate you, and it will register
Speaker 1: that you've offered it, and they'll reach out if they
Speaker 1: need it. But we can accidentally kind of be add
Speaker 1: to people stuff. It was just like I felt like
Speaker 1: I had all these tabs open, a really beautiful well
Speaker 1: meeting friends who would check in, how's your dad going.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, he's still sick, still dying, We're still
Speaker 1: at the hospital every day. And it built up in
Speaker 1: my head as all these people I had to reply
Speaker 1: to and you get to a point where you just
Speaker 1: abandon it. But you know, all of those people were
Speaker 1: really trying to be helpful and support me and love
Speaker 1: bomb me, but instead it can sometimes feel like another
Speaker 1: burden to carry. So you know, just showing up for
Speaker 1: people can be as simple as saying I'm thinking about you,
Speaker 1: and you know, reducing your burden.
Speaker 2: I love that. That's great advice.
Speaker 3: Well, you certainly showed up for Lisa, and Lisa, you're
Speaker 3: clearly showing up for Hugo, your beautiful little one. I
Speaker 3: just wanted to ask one more question, how do you
Speaker 3: how do you describe each other in one word? What
Speaker 3: would be one word to describe each other with?
Speaker 4: Well, Sarah, I'm just going to say.
Speaker 1: Angel, Lisa, I would say to enacious, Yes, this literally
Speaker 1: never gives up in any respect.
Speaker 2: Ah. That's incredible.
Speaker 3: Lisa and Sarah, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: The book is called The Power of Two, a life
Speaker 3: changing story of friendship, surrogacy, and true connection. What an
Speaker 3: incredible story. It's a beautiful book. And as you say,
Speaker 3: it's what's and all. It's a hell of a journey
Speaker 3: that you've been on and but congratulations, you're here. You've
Speaker 3: done it, and baby Hugo is thriving, and so congratulations, thank.
Speaker 4: You, thank you, thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2: Sally, Yeah, our pleasure.