1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:07,560 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear And Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. By 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,508 Sean Aylmer: 2024, there'll be 1 million people working in technology in 3 00:00:12,509 --> 00:00:16,410 Sean Aylmer: Australia. By 2027, that will grow to 1. 2 million. 4 00:00:16,799 --> 00:00:20,249 Sean Aylmer: According to a new digital pulse report from the Australian Computer 5 00:00:20,249 --> 00:00:24,360 Sean Aylmer: Society, there's an enormous demand for people with technology skills. 6 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:28,289 Sean Aylmer: But women are still very much underrepresented in the industry. 7 00:00:28,530 --> 00:00:31,259 Sean Aylmer: There are also plenty of other challenges relating to diversity 8 00:00:31,259 --> 00:00:35,729 Sean Aylmer: and inclusion, challenges that if resolved could significantly improve the 9 00:00:35,729 --> 00:00:38,909 Sean Aylmer: pipeline of people to fill the gaps in the sector. 10 00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:42,449 Sean Aylmer: Chris Vein is the chief executive of the Australian Computer 11 00:00:42,450 --> 00:00:44,458 Sean Aylmer: Society. Chris, welcome to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,350 Chris Vein: Thank you, Sean, for having me. 13 00:00:46,979 --> 00:00:49,769 Sean Aylmer: Ever since there's been a technology sector or at least 14 00:00:49,769 --> 00:00:52,679 Sean Aylmer: ever since I've been reporting on it, there's been a 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,460 Sean Aylmer: skills shortage. And it just seems to be getting worse. 16 00:00:57,090 --> 00:01:00,360 Chris Vein: That's right, Sean. The research that is coming out in 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,649 Chris Vein: our report really describes the problem in three parts. It 18 00:01:04,709 --> 00:01:08,549 Chris Vein: describes the talent issue. And do we have enough of 19 00:01:08,549 --> 00:01:13,440 Chris Vein: the talent, the pipelines of getting the talent to the 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,330 Chris Vein: marketplace? And then third is the skills that talent has. 21 00:01:18,330 --> 00:01:20,520 Chris Vein: Do we have the right skills to do the right 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,789 Chris Vein: job at the right time? And those are three really 23 00:01:23,789 --> 00:01:28,438 Chris Vein: big challenges. I think the exciting part is that Australia 24 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,709 Chris Vein: is well on its way to achieving or solving those 25 00:01:31,709 --> 00:01:34,800 Chris Vein: issues. But we do have a lot of work ahead 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,190 Chris Vein: of us. 27 00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:37,800 Sean Aylmer: How do you solve those issues? I mean, I'll get 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,169 Sean Aylmer: into the report in a moment, but there are certain 29 00:01:40,170 --> 00:01:42,840 Sean Aylmer: personas that you see around the tech industry, shall we 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,299 Sean Aylmer: say? There aren't a lot of women in the industry, 31 00:01:45,299 --> 00:01:50,130 Sean Aylmer: for example. The personas I'm thinking of probably typecast people 32 00:01:50,130 --> 00:01:52,650 Sean Aylmer: too much, but it just doesn't seem to be able 33 00:01:52,650 --> 00:01:56,490 Sean Aylmer: to attract a broad range of people or broad enough. 34 00:01:57,090 --> 00:02:01,020 Chris Vein: Sean, that's why the ACS exists, to exactly deal with 35 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:05,129 Chris Vein: that particular issue. Let me say that on the first 36 00:02:05,129 --> 00:02:09,570 Chris Vein: point of diversity, equity and inclusion, you're exactly right. We 37 00:02:09,570 --> 00:02:11,430 Chris Vein: have a lot of work to do with women. The 38 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:15,270 Chris Vein: good news is that it's improving. Not enough, but it 39 00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:19,379 Chris Vein: is improving. We really need to do a lot more 40 00:02:19,410 --> 00:02:25,198 Chris Vein: around diversity policies, embedding those policies in organizations, everything from 41 00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:29,850 Chris Vein: their search for employees, to their development of their employees. 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,980 Chris Vein: We have a lot of ideas on how to help 43 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,089 Chris Vein: industry do that. We have to remember that there are 44 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:40,169 Chris Vein: other groups of people that would be included in that 45 00:02:40,169 --> 00:02:45,299 Chris Vein: diversity statement that require perhaps different plans or different approaches 46 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:50,370 Chris Vein: to actually beef up their participation in the sector. I 47 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:54,929 Chris Vein: think from a pipeline standpoint, Australia has always had a 48 00:02:54,929 --> 00:02:59,909 Chris Vein: strong educational pipeline of talent. The problem is that it's 49 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:05,488 Chris Vein: just not producing enough. There are ways that we can 50 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:10,019 Chris Vein: work with teachers from K- 12 to the graduate level 51 00:03:10,260 --> 00:03:14,309 Chris Vein: to really help them, help the students become excited about 52 00:03:14,309 --> 00:03:18,209 Chris Vein: technology and also develop the necessary skills that they will 53 00:03:18,209 --> 00:03:24,750 Chris Vein: need. Traditionally, Australia has also looked toward the foreign markets 54 00:03:24,870 --> 00:03:30,179 Chris Vein: migration, migrants specifically, as a way to offset the lack 55 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:34,469 Chris Vein: of tech talent grown domestically. And while that is a 56 00:03:34,469 --> 00:03:38,250 Chris Vein: really good and has been a successful pipeline, we really 57 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:41,910 Chris Vein: need to look holistically at the issue and make sure 58 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:44,880 Chris Vein: that we're not focusing just on one or the other, 59 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:48,660 Chris Vein: but actually looking at what a balanced approach would be 60 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:52,350 Chris Vein: to the pipelines. And then the last point I'd make 61 00:03:52,379 --> 00:03:57,060 Chris Vein: is on the skills. Australia is looking for more people 62 00:03:57,270 --> 00:04:01,170 Chris Vein: and there are ways besides those two pipelines that I 63 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:05,400 Chris Vein: described to get tech talent with the right skills. And 64 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,869 Chris Vein: those would be retraining those people who are interested in 65 00:04:09,870 --> 00:04:14,130 Chris Vein: moving into the technology sector, who are not currently in 66 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:18,390 Chris Vein: that sector, working with industry with business to retrain them. 67 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,928 Chris Vein: For those people who are in the sector already, we 68 00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:25,919 Chris Vein: can work with them to upskill them in order to 69 00:04:26,309 --> 00:04:29,969 Chris Vein: be able to handle the newer technologies. Perhaps coming out, 70 00:04:29,969 --> 00:04:36,930 Chris Vein: artificial intelligence, quantum computing, whatever it may be. But I think we shouldn't forget 71 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:42,628 Chris Vein: that vocational training is an important aspect to our strategy. 72 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:46,558 Chris Vein: And it's a little disheartening, I must say, to see 73 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:52,229 Chris Vein: the drop in TAFE registrations in this particular area. Almost 74 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:56,370 Chris Vein: a 50% drop since about 2016 if I remember my 75 00:04:56,370 --> 00:05:00,359 Chris Vein: data correctly. And that to me is an indication that 76 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,029 Chris Vein: we have a lot of work to do to really 77 00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:06,599 Chris Vein: help people maybe at the beginning part of their journey 78 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:10,680 Chris Vein: to go into the tech field. So again, a lot 79 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,309 Chris Vein: of opportunity there. And we at ACS, along with our 80 00:05:14,309 --> 00:05:18,178 Chris Vein: partners in Australia, are working to develop a whole bunch 81 00:05:18,178 --> 00:05:21,150 Chris Vein: of solutions or approaches to those problems. 82 00:05:21,330 --> 00:05:23,549 Sean Aylmer: So full disclosure here for me, I actually have an 83 00:05:23,549 --> 00:05:27,210 Sean Aylmer: interest in a cyber training company. And it's not involved 84 00:05:27,210 --> 00:05:29,969 Sean Aylmer: in the TAFE system or the university system. It is a 85 00:05:29,970 --> 00:05:34,530 Sean Aylmer: vocational company. What we have found in that company is 86 00:05:34,559 --> 00:05:36,719 Sean Aylmer: that there are a lot of people who do train 87 00:05:36,719 --> 00:05:41,099 Sean Aylmer: for something and then decide to retrain technology and then 88 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:44,700 Sean Aylmer: we help place them. They are great applicants. People love 89 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:48,029 Sean Aylmer: people who have other skills and then training technology. That's 90 00:05:48,029 --> 00:05:48,960 Sean Aylmer: what we've found anyway. 91 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:54,750 Chris Vein: Absolutely. I think it's the beauty of being a technologist. 92 00:05:55,559 --> 00:05:59,250 Chris Vein: We oftentimes think of technologists around what we do. We're 93 00:05:59,250 --> 00:06:01,020 Chris Vein: a coder as an example. 94 00:06:01,049 --> 00:06:01,229 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Yep. 95 00:06:01,379 --> 00:06:04,109 Chris Vein: But really what technology is about is a different way 96 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:07,620 Chris Vein: of problem solving. It's a different way of thinking. And 97 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:10,888 Chris Vein: when you can excite people who are interested in kind 98 00:06:10,889 --> 00:06:15,659 Chris Vein: of pure technology but also doing adjacent fields like user 99 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:20,219 Chris Vein: design or something else and you teach them that rethinking 100 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:25,289 Chris Vein: or that problem solving, it's wonderful seeing their eyes light 101 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:27,840 Chris Vein: up and it's wonderful to see what they can accomplish. 102 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,240 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Chris. We'll be back in a minute. 103 00:06:36,869 --> 00:06:39,900 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Chris Vein, chief executive of the Australian 104 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:43,500 Sean Aylmer: Computer Society. Also, what's it mean for wages? I mean, 105 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:46,678 Sean Aylmer: we have such a shortage. We need the skills we 106 00:06:46,678 --> 00:06:49,920 Sean Aylmer: need to expand, as you said, to include more people. 107 00:06:50,099 --> 00:06:53,250 Sean Aylmer: Hopefully we'll get more, obviously, talent coming. But all this 108 00:06:53,250 --> 00:06:59,340 Sean Aylmer: together, it's going to potentially be quite a wage- driven sector. 109 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:06,300 Chris Vein: Absolutely. I think in one sense, we're experiencing the classic 110 00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:10,619 Chris Vein: economic problem of greater demand than supply. And as a 111 00:07:10,619 --> 00:07:14,580 Chris Vein: result of that, the wages are rising because there just 112 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:20,100 Chris Vein: aren't enough people to fill those positions. What's happening is 113 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:24,629 Chris Vein: that market failure, if you will, is happening around the 114 00:07:24,630 --> 00:07:28,260 Chris Vein: world. So it's not just Australia who faces that issue. 115 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:30,720 Chris Vein: It's my home country of the US. You see it 116 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,610 Chris Vein: in Africa, you see it in Asia, you see it 117 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:37,680 Chris Vein: everywhere. So the challenge is that Australia is now competing 118 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,990 Chris Vein: against all countries around the world for a very limited 119 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:49,200 Chris Vein: set of technology talent. Again, that's yet another pressure on 120 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Chris Vein: wages because we need to up our game if we're 121 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,250 Chris Vein: going to attract others from other parts of the world 122 00:07:56,250 --> 00:08:00,120 Chris Vein: to come to Australia and work here. And the last 123 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,499 Chris Vein: part I would say is COVID, as horrible as it 124 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:09,090 Chris Vein: was, when it comes to technology, really forced all sectors, 125 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:14,010 Chris Vein: all businesses, education institutions changed the very nature of their 126 00:08:14,010 --> 00:08:17,670 Chris Vein: existence, of how they work, how they operate. And as 127 00:08:17,670 --> 00:08:22,559 Chris Vein: a result, people now recognize the value of technology talent 128 00:08:22,559 --> 00:08:24,780 Chris Vein: in a different way, or at least a level that 129 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:28,680 Chris Vein: they never had before. And as a result of that, 130 00:08:29,190 --> 00:08:33,360 Chris Vein: we really didn't value our tech talent before COVID, and 131 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,790 Chris Vein: now we do. So there's three very good pressures on 132 00:08:38,790 --> 00:08:42,389 Chris Vein: wages. And I don't see those pressures going away in 133 00:08:42,389 --> 00:08:43,140 Chris Vein: the short term. 134 00:08:43,590 --> 00:08:45,718 Sean Aylmer: In a sense, we've been talking about this from the 135 00:08:45,809 --> 00:08:50,010 Sean Aylmer: candidate's perspective. If I'm a business and I know I 136 00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:55,679 Sean Aylmer: need from security through to artificial intelligence, through to better 137 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,189 Sean Aylmer: using data, what should I be thinking about as a 138 00:08:59,190 --> 00:09:02,670 Sean Aylmer: business owner? What's the first step and the second step I 139 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:06,270 Sean Aylmer: need to take to embrace what you are talking about? 140 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:10,260 Chris Vein: Well, I think it all goes back to strategy and 141 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:14,070 Chris Vein: what is it that you're trying to accomplish. And always 142 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:19,620 Chris Vein: technology follows business need. So once you have a clear 143 00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:23,340 Chris Vein: understanding of the market you're going after or the change 144 00:09:23,340 --> 00:09:26,880 Chris Vein: that you want to effect, you then start thinking about 145 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,838 Chris Vein: what technologies will help you get there. And I think 146 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,960 Chris Vein: the first thing is that business needs to start placing 147 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,710 Chris Vein: some bets on what that technology may look like. Certainly 148 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:42,210 Chris Vein: artificial intelligence. And we could spend several podcasts just talking 149 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:45,420 Chris Vein: about the good, bad, the ugly of artificial intelligence, but 150 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:49,410 Chris Vein: it's clear that it is fundamental to the future of 151 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:53,699 Chris Vein: business in Australia and everywhere. So if a business is 152 00:09:53,699 --> 00:09:57,990 Chris Vein: going to take a bet and use artificial intelligence as 153 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:01,860 Chris Vein: part of its strategy, then we need to start figuring 154 00:10:01,860 --> 00:10:07,199 Chris Vein: out what initiatives would be required to effect that. And 155 00:10:07,259 --> 00:10:13,439 Chris Vein: most fundamentally then, what your technology talent strategy is. What 156 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,559 Chris Vein: has happened now is that the tech talent is the 157 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,429 Chris Vein: major part of an organization supply chain and therefore needs 158 00:10:20,429 --> 00:10:25,410 Chris Vein: to be managed or viewed operated appropriately. So all of 159 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:29,579 Chris Vein: that said, there are three or four very distinct things 160 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,400 Chris Vein: that a business needs to do, and it needs to 161 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,750 Chris Vein: be abundantly clear about all of that. And then going 162 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:39,630 Chris Vein: back to the diversity equity inclusion, I would say that 163 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:41,999 Chris Vein: they need to wrap that with the idea that they 164 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,500 Chris Vein: need to look broadly and deeply around sources of that 165 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:47,160 Chris Vein: technology talent. 166 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:52,080 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now I've got to ask you, Chris. You have 167 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,050 Sean Aylmer: a great career. You've worked under different presidential administrations in 168 00:10:55,050 --> 00:10:57,870 Sean Aylmer: the US, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr. and Barack Obama, 169 00:10:58,110 --> 00:11:02,880 Sean Aylmer: you find yourself as the CEO of the ACS. How 170 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:03,539 Sean Aylmer: did that happen? 171 00:11:04,049 --> 00:11:08,340 Chris Vein: I have been coming to Australia to share my thoughts 172 00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:13,110 Chris Vein: about things like innovation since about 2008. What I found 173 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:19,020 Chris Vein: is that the opportunities here were quite frankly more exciting 174 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,109 Chris Vein: than they were anywhere else in the world. I worked 175 00:11:22,109 --> 00:11:25,830 Chris Vein: at the World Bank. The first day that I arrived 176 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:28,530 Chris Vein: at the World Bank, my boss told me about this 177 00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:32,819 Chris Vein: amazing technology in Tasmania that was being used and this 178 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:37,380 Chris Vein: amazing startup company and this female founder of the organization. 179 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:40,619 Chris Vein: And she said, " You've got to go in Australia. You've got 180 00:11:40,619 --> 00:11:43,080 Chris Vein: to meet this woman. You got to understand, because we 181 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,250 Chris Vein: think this has applicability everywhere else in the world." And 182 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:52,710 Chris Vein: when you have that introduction into Australia and the startup 183 00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:55,889 Chris Vein: community and the founder system, and it was all true, 184 00:11:56,009 --> 00:11:59,130 Chris Vein: in fact I ended up joining the University of Tasmania 185 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,400 Chris Vein: as an advisor to this small kind of startup group, 186 00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:07,050 Chris Vein: it is an exciting foundation that I just kept building 187 00:12:07,050 --> 00:12:10,320 Chris Vein: upon and building upon and building upon. And when the 188 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,319 Chris Vein: opportunity came up to be CEO, it was kind of 189 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,910 Chris Vein: a no brainer because I thought what a wonderful opportunity 190 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:21,330 Chris Vein: and so many things can be done. And maybe, just 191 00:12:21,330 --> 00:12:25,828 Chris Vein: maybe because I've had this international experience, I can bring 192 00:12:25,830 --> 00:12:30,838 Chris Vein: a different perspective to this opportunity to perhaps get ACS 193 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,809 Chris Vein: to think a little bit differently and help our partners 194 00:12:33,809 --> 00:12:37,140 Chris Vein: to think a little bit differently and maybe bring everybody together 195 00:12:37,770 --> 00:12:42,540 Chris Vein: in a slightly different configuration that maybe we can actually 196 00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:46,799 Chris Vein: solve some things that we hadn't before. Maybe I'm naive. 197 00:12:47,429 --> 00:12:50,159 Chris Vein: And if I am, I'm glad to be naive because 198 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,708 Chris Vein: I think that's why I'm here, is to figure out 199 00:12:52,708 --> 00:12:56,790 Chris Vein: whether we can solve these problems differently and really position 200 00:12:56,850 --> 00:13:02,640 Chris Vein: Australia in a different place geopolitically, because I think we 201 00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:05,458 Chris Vein: should be fighting far above our weight. 202 00:13:05,849 --> 00:13:07,920 Sean Aylmer: Chris, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 203 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:09,329 Chris Vein: Thank you for having me. 204 00:13:09,809 --> 00:13:13,830 Sean Aylmer: That was Chris Vein, CEO of the Australian Computer Society. 205 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,858 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning 206 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:19,108 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most 207 00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:22,590 Sean Aylmer: popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.