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Speaker 1: What if you could train your mind to not just

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Speaker 1: cope with stress, but actually thrive under pressure, and as

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Speaker 1: well as that improve your resilience, your gratitude, and even

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Speaker 1: your cognitive function. Well, I have an opportunity for you.

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Speaker 1: For the first time ever. I am running a full

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Speaker 1: day public workshop that's going to be accompanied with a

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Speaker 1: six week hardiness program. And this is based on the

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Speaker 1: randomized control trial that I recently published, the title of

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Speaker 1: which is Effects of a Multimodal Psychophysiological Training Intervention on

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Speaker 1: Cognitive fitness, hardiness, and well Being of Corporate Professionals.

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Speaker 2: Basically, what you will get is a.

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Speaker 1: Full day workshop on hardiness training that has been shown

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Speaker 1: to prove all three elements control orientation, challenge orientation, and

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Speaker 1: commitment orientation and hardiness has been called the courage to

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Speaker 1: grow from stress. But as well as that, ticipants in

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Speaker 1: this study had a twenty seven percent increase in mood,

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Speaker 1: they had a twenty six percent reduction in their perception

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Speaker 1: of the stress in their life. They had improvements in

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Speaker 1: resilience and gratitude, all three components of hardiness and of

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Speaker 1: cognitive function. So the workshop is going to be a

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Speaker 1: full day workshop. It's going to occur on Sunday, the

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Speaker 1: twenty sixth of October at Deacon University Burwood Campus. The

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Speaker 1: doors will open at eight thirty am and the workshop

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Speaker 1: will run from nine to four thirty pm. And in

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Speaker 1: addition to that, you will get a signed copy of

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Speaker 1: my book before it's actually released, and you will get

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Speaker 1: six weeks on the Hardiness app that was part of

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Speaker 1: the randomized control trial. This has a whole host of

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Speaker 1: different things in the toolbox. It's got workouts, it's got meditations,

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Speaker 1: it's got guided breathing sessions. There's a ritual board, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole host of educational videos, and much much more.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: If you're interested in growing from stress, optimizing your health

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Speaker 1: and living longer, this is the workshop and program for you.

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Speaker 1: So more details can be found on my website www

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Speaker 1: dot Paul Taylor dot biz.

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Speaker 2: Hope to see you there.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Aliyah bud Ylova, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, good morning, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I am currently reading a book called The Resilience Toolkit

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Speaker 1: by doctor Alia bud Jlova, and it says a proven

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Speaker 1: four step process to unlock your true potential, and it

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Speaker 1: should say underneath it written by a P. Academic in resilience.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: If I hear another psychologist say that resilience is all

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Speaker 1: about self care and self compassion, I'm going to throttle somebody.

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Speaker 3: There is a collection of us that will help you out.

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Speaker 3: If that's the case, we'll help you.

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Speaker 2: So look, it's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: We've got quite interesting parallels, right, both from Europe, from

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Speaker 1: rather challenging parts of Europe at the time. Both immigrants

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Speaker 1: to the furthest flung part of the world.

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Speaker 2: You're over the ditch in New Zealand and I'm in Australia.

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Speaker 1: And both joined the military. Both did PhDs in the

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Speaker 1: area of resilient stress, hardiness, that sort of stuff. So

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Speaker 1: kind of both p academics in this area. So tell

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Speaker 1: our listeners, what was it like growing up in Eastern Europe?

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Speaker 1: When you were when you were there, what we are

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Speaker 1: memories of it?

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Speaker 3: The first thing I wanted to say is every step

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Speaker 3: of the way when you were finding parallel So I

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Speaker 3: just wanted to high five you well done, well done,

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Speaker 3: but you'd know perhaps from your own journey. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to draw too many similarities or too many parallels.

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Speaker 3: Too early to me growing up in Eastern Europe was

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Speaker 3: all I knew. But more importantly, at that stage of life,

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Speaker 3: it was invigorating. The challenges were meaningful. There was some

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Speaker 3: kind of do you know the curious pieces? There is

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Speaker 3: this saying, and I don't know if it's in Bulgarian

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Speaker 3: or not, but resistance is existence and it just states perfectly,

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Speaker 3: isn't it curious? Do you know what I mean? Because

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Speaker 3: on the flip side of that, you have the kind

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Speaker 3: of the agony of indulgence where you don't have something

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Speaker 3: to grapple with, something to bite into and something to

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Speaker 3: struggle against. So perhaps it was because it was too

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Speaker 3: young to process the wider scope of challenges that exist

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Speaker 3: in my environment. I actually found it invigorating, purposeful, Yes, challenging,

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Speaker 3: but more importantly, it felt like it had deep meaning.

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Speaker 3: The sorts of challenges we confront, the opportunity to establish yourself,

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Speaker 3: to find your own voice in this messy environment was

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Speaker 3: very satisfying.

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Speaker 1: And when tell me this, when did you come across

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Speaker 1: Victor Frankel? Because I read Man Search for Meeting as

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Speaker 1: a seventeen year old, and I had a pretty profound

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Speaker 1: effect in my life.

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Speaker 2: When did you first read about Frankel.

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Speaker 3: Well, my godmother, who is an amazing woman in Bulgaria,

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Speaker 3: introduced me to Frankel, perhaps a test too early, and

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Speaker 3: then I had my second encounter with Frankel in a

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Speaker 3: context I could better understand that, which was actually in

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Speaker 3: New Zealand my first year at university. A dear friend

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Speaker 3: of mine gave me the book and the seren depity

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Speaker 3: behind that, you know, the connection made me really deepen

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Speaker 3: my appetite for it. But Victor Frankel, my first introduction

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Speaker 3: would have probably been about around about the age of

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Speaker 3: thirteen fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Oh my, wow, that's very cool.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk all things resilience, and I am,

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Speaker 1: as you'll have noted, doing a PhD in resilience. It's

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Speaker 1: a kind of a slippery term really when it comes

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Speaker 1: to from an academic perspective.

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Speaker 2: Is it a state?

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Speaker 1: Is it a t is it a process? Is it

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Speaker 1: an outcome? Is it something that we have or something

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Speaker 1: that we do? And I love flicking through your book

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Speaker 1: and reading the line resilience is a process. So tell

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Speaker 1: us the difference between the listeners between what I just

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Speaker 1: talked about that that st treat, process outcome.

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Speaker 3: The first thing I want to underline is I hope

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Speaker 3: none of us have any illusion that resilience isn't the necessity.

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Speaker 3: It is a critical necessity. It is something we cannot

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Speaker 3: do without, even if it is making away from here

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Speaker 3: to your destination today, you know. And so I think

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Speaker 3: when we're thinking about resilience for the longest of time,

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Speaker 3: is being described as a characteristic that comes from metallurgy,

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Speaker 3: you know, like how much can you handle before you break?

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Speaker 3: And that infuriates me because it misses the whole point, right. So,

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Speaker 3: to me, resilience is a pursuit. It's not a thing

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Speaker 3: that you were born with necessarily. Yes, we all have

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Speaker 3: it to some degree or another, but it needs to

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Speaker 3: be something that is woven in subjectively through our own

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Speaker 3: experience of life and very deliberately nurtured in order for

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Speaker 3: us to grow it and to continue to rely on

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Speaker 3: it in different phases and stages. So to me, it

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Speaker 3: is a process. It is a state that is always elusive,

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Speaker 3: and that's the piece that we have to keep remembering.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not just you know, you show up,

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Speaker 3: you've got it, you crack on with life in your

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Speaker 3: rock star sure for a hot second, but then the

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Speaker 3: job of life is to continuously challenge you. If you

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Speaker 3: live life well that is, you know, if you hide

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Speaker 3: under a rock, that's a separate story, that's another book.

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Speaker 3: But that's the piece I think that matters most.

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Speaker 1: Had you just reminded me of I've had doctor Stanley

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Speaker 1: Beacham on my podcast a couple of times, and and

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Speaker 1: he said something that's really stuck in my head. He

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Speaker 1: said that that in order to live your best life,

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Speaker 1: you need to take on as much challenge and responsibility

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Speaker 1: as you will tolerate as you can tolerate, right, which

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Speaker 1: is a friggin cool And and he, you know, he

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Speaker 1: said something else that I just know that you're going

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Speaker 1: to love. He said, every nine and then you need

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Speaker 1: to walk right to the edge of yourself and stir

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Speaker 1: into the abyss.

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Speaker 3: Yes please, Yeah, How good is that? You nearly you

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Speaker 3: nearly had me at as much as you can handle?

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Speaker 3: And then I thought, how do you? How do you

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Speaker 3: know that? Right in my in my little community of

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Speaker 3: you know, reflective thinkers, we we are practitioners more than that.

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Speaker 3: We talk about the spinning edge of possibility, right, And

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Speaker 3: so that isn't it delicious in fact to call that

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Speaker 3: before my publisher said, you know, someone has to read

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Speaker 3: it in that title doesn't appeal, But you know, like

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Speaker 3: the spinning edge of just constantly nudging, testing, exploring, seeing

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Speaker 3: just what's possible for you, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah.

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Speaker 1: I remember a maid of mine in the military. It

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Speaker 1: was a bit mad, it was a bit out there,

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Speaker 1: but he always said, if you're not right on the edge,

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Speaker 1: you're taking up too much room.

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Speaker 3: Do you already love this podcast? I was, do you know?

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Speaker 3: This morning? I was going to prepare myself, and then

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Speaker 3: I thought, no, I'm just going to flow with it.

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Speaker 3: Don't judge me for my hippie words. But and now

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Speaker 3: I'm realizing we have the perfect collection of sound bites

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Speaker 3: just spontaneously emerging.

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Speaker 1: That's cool indeed, So let let's talk about you and

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Speaker 1: your background.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Before we dig into the whole process. I think the

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Speaker 1: context is really helpful here. Let's talk about May two

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Speaker 1: thousand and thirty in Syria. First of all, what were

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Speaker 1: you doing there?

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Speaker 2: Then? Secondly, and then talk us through what actually happened.

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Speaker 3: So twenty twelve, twenty thirteen was my final deployment with

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Speaker 3: the New Zealand Defense Force as an army officer. I

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Speaker 3: had completed a number of deployments beforehand, and this was

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Speaker 3: the greatest gift of all. So I was selected to

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Speaker 3: serve with a UN mission, the oldest UN military mission

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Speaker 3: on the planet called Anso, and it serves across five

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Speaker 3: different countries. So you know, you've got Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Syria,

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Speaker 3: in Egypt, and I got picked for the best of

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Speaker 3: them all, or the most happening as it was at

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Speaker 3: the time, Syria. So in May twenty thirteen, I had

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Speaker 3: been in the mission area for already four months after

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Speaker 3: some training in Israel, and in May twenty thirteen, after

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Speaker 3: a series of critical incidences, myself and two of my

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Speaker 3: colleagues were taken hosted out of a UN base in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the night, unarmed by over thirty eight

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Speaker 3: heavily armed militia members. This particular incident was quite narrowly

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Speaker 3: because it had all the markings of a new script

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Speaker 3: that UN had not experienced in the operation in the

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Speaker 3: area of operation at the time. So we have had

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Speaker 3: a number of UN military observers who had been snatched

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Speaker 3: from the road and returned. We had loss of UN

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Speaker 3: military observer's life over time over the years, but military

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Speaker 3: installations or buildings effectively were considered the no gos on

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Speaker 3: and that had not changed. And so the fact the

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Speaker 3: fact that this threshold was crossed basically meant that we

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Speaker 3: are well. We are toasted. We thought everyone else did.

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Speaker 3: The group that took us was notorious, not for good reasons.

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Speaker 3: And yet we managed to talk our way out of

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Speaker 3: our recmment. And I'm standing here teatting to.

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Speaker 1: You today, and and was there a point I think

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Speaker 1: you kind of alluded to it already, the fact that

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Speaker 1: they crossed a threshold and had actually gone into a

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Speaker 1: un building and snatched you writing your brain is going

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Speaker 1: this is different, this is different. Already talk us through.

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Speaker 1: What was the conversation like amongst the three of you

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Speaker 1: at that come to Jesus moment.

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Speaker 3: The beauty and the and the beauty if we let it.

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Speaker 3: Critical incidences of this nature is that they guide you,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you snatched in a situation that is

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Speaker 3: as acute as this. The element of surprise channels or

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Speaker 3: challenges you to channel your energy very intentionally. We didn't

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Speaker 3: have to dilly. Daily conversations were parallel the world with

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Speaker 3: one another. We were discouraged from having conversations with each

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Speaker 3: other for a while, right, okay, But in those initial stages,

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Speaker 3: you look to find the tiny opening that you have,

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Speaker 3: hoping that everyone is on the same on the same mission,

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Speaker 3: which is survived, survived the moment, you know, which is

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Speaker 3: really interesting. It's it's so as a context at the time,

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Speaker 3: the threatening area was quite high, and so we had

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Speaker 3: one of us at all times on beauty at night

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Speaker 3: to observe and monitor. One of my colleagues was already

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Speaker 3: aware that things were happening, but he didn't have a

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Speaker 3: full arch of sight, so he couldn't evaluate. He didn't

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Speaker 3: he didn't realize that there were, you know, thirty men

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Speaker 3: climbing over the fence whilst he was observing the handful

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Speaker 3: in front of him. So jumped over the fence that

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Speaker 3: had broken the way into our compound effectively. And by

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Speaker 3: the time when my colleague logged onto that and started

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Speaker 3: making madacres to our headquarters, I could see a bunch

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Speaker 3: of them creeping in from the back, which is where

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Speaker 3: my quarters were, my my quarters being a tiny room

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Speaker 3: in a container building. And at that point I actually

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Speaker 3: woke up with someone smashing a window in our building.

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Speaker 3: That stage, you know what I mean, don't. You don't

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Speaker 3: have time to sit there and put your lipstick on

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Speaker 3: and start, you know, there wasn't. We didn't have that

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Speaker 3: kind of luxury. And that's a good because actually I

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Speaker 3: reflect on this often. We know, we think about situations

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Speaker 3: like this where someone takes you. In our context, when

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Speaker 3: they took us, they told us that they're taking us

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Speaker 3: to make a bad.

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Speaker 2: Video of us with that straight away.

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Speaker 3: So decapitation, right, Amy, you. I mean, we spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of time collecting intelligence from random equivalent of YouTube videos,

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Speaker 3: just killing time, observing and trying to work out what's

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Speaker 3: happening in our environment, so that threat didn't seem out

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Speaker 3: of context. The fact that we were in that threat

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Speaker 3: and we swimming our way to an uncertain future or

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Speaker 3: a certain death was hunting part. So yeah, all you

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Speaker 3: had time for is find a way through, you know.

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Speaker 1: And talk to me about that process of finding the

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Speaker 1: way through. You said you talked your way out of it,

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Speaker 1: and just just maybe expand on O a little bit

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Speaker 1: for our listeners.

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Speaker 3: You know, is when you have a wicked situation, the

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Speaker 3: process expands and shrinks depending on how much you've got

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Speaker 3: to work with. Any Right, this was a one not

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Speaker 3: a one off conversation, right, we had to continue to

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Speaker 3: dig in and try to work out what was in

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Speaker 3: the mind of our captors. We got taken away from

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Speaker 3: our environment, but before with it, we had a number

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Speaker 3: of different opportunities within which we could strike a conversation

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Speaker 3: with them or try to see what they see us as.

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Speaker 3: If they saw us as an embuggerance, you know, the

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Speaker 3: reactions and responses that would have to us would be

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Speaker 3: a particular kind aggressive, uncompromising, brutal like. We had few

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Speaker 3: of those nudges from the beginning, but one little thing

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Speaker 3: that got me and gave me a sense of hope

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Speaker 3: from the start. Here it is. It was the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night, it was a cold night, and when

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Speaker 3: someone broke through our building, they we had a couple

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Speaker 3: of little moments in between that were quite peculiar. For example,

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Speaker 3: our building was you know, soft skinned building. It was

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Speaker 3: a container building. I tried to negotiate with an individual

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Speaker 3: who was in front of us, who looked more like

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Speaker 3: a school teacher than a nasty rebel. His eyes were kind,

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Speaker 3: his disposition was one of confusion and kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: he was a little disoriented. So he was an interpreter

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Speaker 3: who had probably been picked up to speak to us

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Speaker 3: in English. I tried to strike a conversation, tried to

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Speaker 3: find kind of a calm way for us to negotiate

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Speaker 3: our way out of our predicament before we got dragged

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Speaker 3: out of the building. And I only stopped when someone

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Speaker 3: pointed an RPG at our door. And when you like,

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Speaker 3: when you have a container building and a tiny little

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Speaker 3: door and an RPG pointed at you, in thinking, dude,

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Speaker 3: you're just you're doing yourself harm. You know, the next

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Speaker 3: day you want to see that. Yeah, let's just slow

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Speaker 3: it down. And who we had to We had to abide.

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Speaker 3: The door has been smashed behind us by that stage.

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Speaker 3: And when I got picked up, a young man grabbed

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Speaker 3: my grabbed my wrists, but his hands, the palm of

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Speaker 3: his hands was sweaty and small little observation like that

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Speaker 3: felt like he was nervous, right, and he prepared for

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Speaker 3: him to be nervous. But I, in my endless wisdom,

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Speaker 3: did something like I said to him, just wipe your hands,

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Speaker 3: don't touch me with your hands, which is really weird

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Speaker 3: thing to do. And he reacted in a way that

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Speaker 3: surprised me. He was taken aback by my by my reaction,

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Speaker 3: he kind of hesitated for a minute and did what

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Speaker 3: I asked him to do, which is what I thought. Ah, Okay,

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Speaker 3: they're not all on the same page. These more continue

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Speaker 3: to stack up for us, and I think that's the

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Speaker 3: job to be done. It doesn't matter how acute the situation,

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Speaker 3: you look to find small little openings that can stack

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Speaker 3: up towards you go. Our goal obvious clear as anything.

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Speaker 3: There was no ambiguity survive or delay the inevitable long

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Speaker 3: enough to see if you can find another way through.

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Speaker 3: And so looking for those tiny, little micro moments to

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Speaker 3: stack up to your benefit is the job of life.

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Speaker 3: Whether this is in a cute situation like ours, whether

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Speaker 3: this traveling through the daily grind of another wet Wednesday morning,

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Speaker 3: you know. And so as we went on, we had

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Speaker 3: a number of these situations that worked to our benefit

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Speaker 3: that I think ultimately created the foundation for us to

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Speaker 3: start a dialogue and to find a common ground with

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Speaker 3: our worst adversary. There's something more to it, right if

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Speaker 3: you were in these moments. No, some of us would

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Speaker 3: assume that's military training. I think it's just humans, humans

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Speaker 3: allowing themselves to allow the best judgment in what they

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Speaker 3: perceived to be a crisis to drive them. You know,

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Speaker 3: not allowing fear to take you on a walk about

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Speaker 3: or to overwhelm you is somewhat easy when you're dealing

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Speaker 3: with the acute we occupied surviving, you know, decisions faster.

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you, we'd hand on heart. Whilst

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Speaker 3: this was probably the most confronting situations in some ways,

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Speaker 3: I found it way harder dealing with my boss in

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Speaker 3: my first corporate role after the military. Then, do you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean? Because you have so many different

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Speaker 3: different ways out and the strategy gets messy and there

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Speaker 3: are feelings, whereas in this instance it's very.

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Speaker 1: Clear and presumably you were ready a psychologist at this point,

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Speaker 1: were you yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So how much.

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Speaker 1: Of your let's show you you're both a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: independently you're an army officer and presumably in theater before

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Speaker 1: you went in they give you some sort of combat

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Speaker 1: survival resistance to interrogation training. What was more useful do

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Speaker 1: you think in that moment? Was it the military specific training,

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Speaker 1: was it your general understanding of psychology and human connection

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Speaker 1: or was it a mix of those things?

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Speaker 3: Do you know? I I spoke to my mentor many

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Speaker 3: months later, many times not just about this incident, but

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Speaker 3: countless others. And I've come to realize it's not being

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Speaker 3: necessarily a psychologist or being an officer, but what he

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Speaker 3: calls being an averagely good human. And I actually I

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Speaker 3: reckon that's the recipe. So yes, the military training we

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Speaker 3: had conducted prior to that, I was privileged to have

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Speaker 3: served with one in that essays in the county, Theroist

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Speaker 3: Technics Group. Prior to this, we had really awesome preparation

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Speaker 3: actually in Australia, so thank you ADF. There were rock

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Speaker 3: stars us. In fact, some of the some of the

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Speaker 3: elements in the conduct that they kept. The training we

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Speaker 3: conducted in Australia were almost as if you know, Rebels

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Speaker 3: some months later had read that book. It felt like

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Speaker 3: a training exercise. The only difference is we knew you

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Speaker 3: and did not have the money to pull it off

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Speaker 3: in context. So yes, that did help because you condition

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Speaker 3: yourself to have these moments of delayed response so that

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Speaker 3: you can choose it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, big, big yeah.

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Speaker 1: I remember when I did come back survival Resistance to

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Speaker 1: interrogation training when we were being tactically questioned, which you

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Speaker 1: know is not very pleasant in my head. When I

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Speaker 1: asked the question, I would go one thousand and two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three thousand.

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Speaker 2: And then respond.

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Speaker 1: And that gets to something we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: in your book, the difference between responding and reacting. But

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Speaker 1: before we go there, what pulling in this journey? Did

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Speaker 1: you start to have some hope that you were actually

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Speaker 1: going to be Maybe that's maybe that's not the right question.

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Speaker 2: Because you probably had hope the whole time.

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Speaker 1: At what point did you start to have some conviction

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Speaker 1: that you were potentially going to get out of this

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Speaker 1: with your head intact on your shoulders the very.

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Speaker 3: So you've got the bombastic version of events and you've

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Speaker 3: got the real one, and the real one is always

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Speaker 3: so much more confronting because it's got a lot of dull,

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Speaker 3: strange moments. And so I say this because in our situation,

386
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Speaker 3: we were released and we were walked through progressively diminishing

387
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Speaker 3: number of people up the hill to the same place

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Speaker 3: we got snatched out of right. And what I mean

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Speaker 3: by that is we managed to negotiate our release or

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Speaker 3: talk our way out of our situation, and then a

391
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Speaker 3: handful of the men that held us ended up directing

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Speaker 3: us back up the hill. When we got there, the

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Speaker 3: only person left with us was one of the leaders,

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Speaker 3: and the condition for our release was that we had

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Speaker 3: secured an audience with the UN General in the region

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Speaker 3: for him. And it almost sounds like Alice in Wonderland

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Speaker 3: kind of a scenario. So you've just been through this

398
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Speaker 3: absolutely horrendous event. We got Drake from Mindfields on the

399
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Speaker 3: way in. On our way back, we knew the bypass

400
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Speaker 3: AIA and we were walking with the person who took

401
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Speaker 3: us up to our main main accommodation area, and literally

402
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Speaker 3: just before we reached the fence decided they decided that

403
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Speaker 3: they're going to make a video of us. And I thought,

404
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Speaker 3: oh my, come on, we've been through this, we've talked

405
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Speaker 3: about it, we've become best friends. You're going to make

406
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Speaker 3: that video of decapitation right now. So it felt quite

407
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Speaker 3: literally that you could see safety smell ad here, it

408
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Speaker 3: touch it, but you're not there. So we got there

409
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Speaker 3: and I had to record a video basically describing my

410
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Speaker 3: keptors as being quite hospitable and caring, you know, the

411
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Speaker 3: usual stuff that they wanted to have on film. And

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Speaker 3: then we got insight of our compound and we had

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Speaker 3: the U in general with the UN security forces that

414
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Speaker 3: you could see filing up for miles and we had

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Speaker 3: to serve a kept a cup of tea so that

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Speaker 3: they can have a discussion with it. So, just up

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Speaker 3: until the point at which we crossed the gates, we

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Speaker 3: didn't know whether we were safe, whether this is some

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Speaker 3: kind of grotesque staging, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Just LOCs of expectation, right, yes.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, So until the last safe moment, we weren't quite

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Speaker 3: sure that this is entirely.

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Speaker 1: Over, you know, And what was the gift that was

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Speaker 1: given to you through that whole process, if you like,

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Speaker 1: as in, what did you take away from that that

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Speaker 1: you think I'm going to use this for the rest

427
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Speaker 1: of my life?

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Speaker 3: Countless countless gifts. So the first, the first one, it's

429
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Speaker 3: the gift that keeps on giving. And I mean, I

430
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 3: haven't left that particular incident has left me with loads

431
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Speaker 3: of opportunities to ask big questions of myself, of people

432
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Speaker 3: I work with, the environment, I mean, in a scheme

433
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Speaker 3: of things. It's a small event that became the catalyst

434
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Speaker 3: for many more conversations right over time. But the starting

435
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 3: point is humility. Humility and the ability through humility to

436
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Speaker 3: appreciate that you are vulnerable and that is fine. That

437
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: you can connect with other people even if they act

438
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 3: like your worst adversary. And most important, to allow yourself

439
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: to see through moments that appear to be finite, to

440
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 3: not let yourself be tripped up by a script you

441
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 3: think you need to follow, to constantly challenge and push yourself.

442
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 3: I think that that cannot happen without humility.

443
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, that's interesting.

444
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: And look, I'm not going to dive into the detail

445
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: of it NW in terms of the negotiation, because I

446
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: think that would probably come out when we talk how

447
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: about your book?

448
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: So firstly, I want to talk about the book.

449
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: When did you decide that you needed to write a

450
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: book on resilience and the resilience to.

451
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 3: Probably, I mean, it wasn't It was never my intention.

452
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 3: The incident died out in my mind as well, you know,

453
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: like relatively quickly, and the sense of closure was there

454
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 3: quite quickly too. But probably about a year into my

455
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: completing my doctorate, I'd already been working with individuals, teams,

456
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,959
Speaker 3: and organizations for a very long time as a psychologist.

457
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: I think it was in my twentieth year as a

458
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: registered psych or nearing it, and I caught myself repeating

459
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: the same heuristics over and over and over again. So

460
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: to me writing the book was very much let's just

461
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: put it all together. Let's get those soundbites and those

462
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: components that have helped so many others out there in

463
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 3: order for others to be able to use them, as

464
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 3: that chapter in in Venus. Yes, the research much that

465
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 3: I did was very much sponsored by the incident in Syria,

466
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: but that was just the initial point. By the time

467
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: when I'd been in Syria, I'd again countless lessons learned

468
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: consciously or otherwise from some of the best people I've

469
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 3: ever worked with, and these are members of the Essays

470
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: and the Counter Theorist Tactics Group. Before I went to Syria,

471
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: I had started conversation about completing my PhD in resilience.

472
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: Completely by accident. I was actually about incable, and I

473
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: reached out to this researcher wanting to find the most

474
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 3: cutting edge tips and tools on rapid fire resilience built.

475
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: How do you do that in action now, in times

476
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: when you can't just pull out and sit via someone

477
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: on a meditation deck and contemplate life right, Yes, And

478
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: the response I got rather than a stack of tools.

479
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: Was serendipitously, someone is looking for a researcher in this place?

480
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: Are you interested in scholarship?

481
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: So cool?

482
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: PhD had started long before I had my crucible moment,

483
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 3: and when that moment had and you know, some of

484
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: the some of the hooks, some of the sayings, the phrases,

485
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 3: the practices in life, the processes that I'd observed amongst

486
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 3: those extraordinarily resilient human being side said with became very clear,

487
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 3: very evident. So genuinely I wanted it to be out

488
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: of my head and into the world because it wasn't mine.

489
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: You know, I'm just a small little threat that carries

490
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: it through. But the stories of the super troopers and

491
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 3: epic humans needed to be out there.

492
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: Tell me this.

493
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk, and I'm quite rightly so,

494
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: about veteran mental health and how number one, the human

495
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: brain isn't designed to be put in very adverse circumstances

496
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: for long periods of time repeatedly, over and over and over,

497
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: which obviously contributes. But one of the other things, and

498
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: some of the criticisms. There's been a review over here

499
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: in Australia, as you probably we know, into veterans' mental health,

500
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: and what was the debrief process like that you guys

501
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: got having obviously been through something that is big T traumatic,

502
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: right pisses me off. This little T trauma that people

503
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: talk about that right center and my boyfriend broke up

504
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: with me and I'm having trauma. So there's a difference

505
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: between little TA and big TA trauma where big T

506
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: is genuine fear for your life or others.

507
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: Close to you.

508
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: How useful or not was the debrief process that you

509
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: guys got from the UN really enough?

510
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: I think my honest observation on this connects to what

511
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: we're observing with veterans these days as well, and that

512
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: I don't know whether the risk or the impact has exacerbated.

513
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: I think we are reporting it a whole key better.

514
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: It is a significant issue. You have to confront it.

515
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: But the best outcomes for me and for us didn't

516
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: happen when we spoke to a psyche some time later.

517
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 3: That happened because we requested we stay on the site

518
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: we got snatched out of for thirty six hours after

519
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: we were released, so what we wanted to do when

520
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: our incident was complete, we got taken back to our

521
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 3: holding area or the area that we were not living in.

522
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: We got taken through a whole heap of tests, traveled around,

523
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 3: you know, and then we requested that we stay in

524
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: the same place they took us hostage out of, so

525
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: that we can close the loop for ourselves.

526
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, that is a lot of people listening to

527
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: this will be going you did what.

528
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: I know you actually are, so.

529
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: I get why I talk talk our listeners through why

530
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: that process was important sins making.

531
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,959
Speaker 3: Since I can't remember which one of us came up

532
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: with this idea, and I'm convinced the minute it was

533
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: uttered of someone's mouth it was like, come on, I know,

534
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: I have to agree now, but what a silly idea. Yet,

535
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 3: what we wanted to do is close the loop on

536
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: the event for ourselves, actually study every little nook and

537
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: crany of this incident. Face the fear, Face the fears

538
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: in the consequence of our experience, as opposed to let

539
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, when you have situations like this, the world

540
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: wants to know about it. They want to kind of

541
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: creep in and study it and break it apart. We

542
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 3: wanted to close the loop for ourselves and complete that

543
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: circle of that cheered experience together. The first thing we

544
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: actually did is we went back to where we were

545
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 3: taken from and cleaned the building up, which was the

546
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: weirdest thing to do. It's like, why would you do that?

547
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: And it was an instinctive thing. Is let me take

548
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 3: control back of what has been snatched away from it.

549
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and psychologically I'm cleaning the space as well.

550
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: Interesting.

551
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: It was strange. It was ubsolutely strange. And so and

552
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: then as you go through this process, you're thinking about

553
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: what's taking place. You're beginning to look at it objectively.

554
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: You're beginning to learn a how hit more about different

555
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: and responses, different reads on exactly the same trigger points,

556
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: and how different ones of us reacted at different stages

557
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: because of how we interpreted those pressure points. That was gold.

558
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: And so it gives you a ton of different opportunities

559
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 3: to look at this gremlin and go away, big T,

560
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: small TI, who cares Let me just as it's a

561
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: thing of beauty, you know, when you give it space

562
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: to breed, to process it, to learn through it. The

563
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: decision for us was, let us learn through it, let

564
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: us just not have some kind of thing that pretends

565
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: it has an opportunity to break us. And it was gold.

566
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: So hand on how this was the best thing we

567
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: could have possibly done. By the time when I got

568
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: to see a psychologist, it was you know, some time later.

569
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: I have profound level of respect for all people in

570
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: our profession, right, But the intimacy of that she had experience,

571
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: and most importantly, allowing yourself to work through the nuk

572
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: syncrnis of it, I think matters most.

573
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: And how important was it that you did that together?

574
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: One hundred virtually the most important thing, because it's then

575
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: when you face it as one which is not a

576
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: luxury that everybody has. Right. Yes, yes, it's a different story,

577
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: but the gaps in our own perceptions was closed relatively quickly.

578
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 3: We could understand the complete picture. We could study it

579
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: from different angles because we had the privilege of that

580
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: she had experience. Now, what happens when you have individuals

581
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 3: who have traveled that journey alone is a very separate story.

582
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: The remarkable thing about humans is that it doesn't matter

583
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: how unique we think our experience is. There's always someone

584
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: who has had something a little like it. Yes, and

585
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: we have to force ourselves or step ourselves out of

586
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: our insulating kind of trauma and start looking for those

587
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: parallels and similarities with the intent of growing from it.

588
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

589
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So let's not talk about the book, and I

590
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: think all the listeners will have their ears pricked up

591
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: because clearly you're not just somebody who's sitting behind a

592
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: bunch of books writing theoretically about resilience. You have the

593
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: lived experience, which I love this the p academic approach.

594
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: So you talk about the abcds, awareness, belonging, curiosity, and drive.

595
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: So let's let's start with awareness. So how is this

596
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: different to from alertness? And then talk us through the

597
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: three components you talk about self, situation and others.

598
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 3: Oh, the unscribbling notes. Over the years, there's another A

599
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: that has been added to the mix. But let's talk

600
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 3: about the difference between alertness and a weirdness awareness. I

601
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: think that their most important thing we discovered on you

602
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: already when we stepped into a challenging, crucible moment was

603
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: the critical importance of choosing how you stand in this

604
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: particular context. So self awareness, interpersonal awareness, and situational awareness

605
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 3: relates to being where you feed are with absolute clarity

606
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 3: of where it is that you want to go right,

607
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: which most of the time I don't think we do.

608
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: I think most of the time we kind of stumble

609
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: upon someplace and try to find a reason not to react.

610
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: I want you to.

611
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: Say that again, right, because it just took me a

612
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: few seconds to process it. Because there's a lot in

613
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: that being where your feet are and being clear are

614
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: whatever and where you want to go.

615
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: So I'll just unpack that a little bit.

616
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: So being where you feed, are being grounded in your

617
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 3: present moment as it is not as you wish it

618
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: to be without most clarity of where you want to go.

619
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: I don't know whether there is a better way to

620
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: face a tricky situation than that.

621
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: There's a huge tookes of acceptance, commitment, therapy in there

622
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: isn't there.

623
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: And do you know what's funny, I love that you

624
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 3: say that because that is purely an experiential observation, That

625
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 3: is observation based on experience. Right. The fact that there

626
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: is a theory that holds it together, that there is

627
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: a scaffolding that we have already discovered excites me to

628
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: no end, and I think we have to keep on

629
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: going that way. Rights, what's the experience showing us and

630
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: how can we better understand it? So the starting point

631
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 3: that awareness in the essays we used to call awareness

632
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: the selection gate to selection. So you could be as

633
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: strong as you think you can be in your life,

634
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 3: you could be as resourced as you like. But unless

635
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: you have that self awareness of understanding you triggers, the

636
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 3: ways in which different input points affect you, and the

637
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: clarity of how it is that you want to show up,

638
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 3: then you toast again, right. And so we had had

639
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 3: countess observations of individuals who are exceptionally well prepared against

640
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: all objective criterias that when they face a challenge because

641
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: the lack awareness, they fall by the wayside. You know,

642
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: they get some prized by things and how things affect them.

643
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: So awareness is understanding yourself words and all with all

644
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: your triggers. Also having the ability to read the context

645
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 3: as it is, not as you wish it to be,

646
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: and that comes with contextual intelligence right, reading the cues

647
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 3: in your environment, being able to adapt to tangle thems

648
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 3: with them again intentionally. And the final one, of course,

649
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 3: situational and interpersonal awareness, which is really respecting the context

650
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: that you're in but never losing sight of how it

651
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: is that you want to show up or what is

652
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: the outcome that you want to achieve. So awarness is

653
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 3: incredibly important. But I think a lot of the time

654
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: when you're thinking about awareness, we actually are showing up

655
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 3: with alertness, which is we show up anticipating the worst

656
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: case scenario, limiting the beautiful, rich parts of our brain

657
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: that are responsible for balance, reasoning, for creative thoughts, and

658
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: shrinking things down to nothing better than reactions, perhaps stress

659
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: up with few kind of you know, good looks around

660
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: the way, around the edges. But really, alertness is the

661
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: state that we find ourselves in when we haven't managed

662
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: pressure effectively, when we haven't accepted that pressure is a

663
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: galvanizing force as opposed to something that can trip us up.

664
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: And where does at tension come into this.

665
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: It's everywhere, It's in every part of it, right, And

666
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: so I think attention, if you think about it, in

667
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 3: a state of alertness, is to the worst case scenario,

668
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: is to the things that the thing that might overwhelm

669
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: you or trip you up. Whereas if you have attention

670
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: in a state of awareness, it gives you multiple touch points.

671
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: You can see the guide posts far ahead of yourself

672
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: as opposed to just where you are or where the

673
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: thread is.

674
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I just just on that reason, I masking

675
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: because you did right about mindful attention, which I was

676
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: delighted to see in the book. I was involved in

677
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: a Delphi study recently on coggnitive fitness and looking at

678
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: the what are the identifiable trainable parameters in the brand

679
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: of performance under pressure? And it was it was organized

680
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: by my PhD supervisor, so I managed to kind of

681
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: get in there as one of the so called experts.

682
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 1: But they basically surveyed over sixty military psychologists, sports psychologists

683
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: and business psychologists and we were all asked to read

684
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: it and these cognitive trainable cognitive primaries that they had

685
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: identified and maybe suggest some others. The number one treate

686
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: our number one cognitive primary that everybody said across the

687
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: board for performance under pressure was attentional control.

688
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, and beg that and tag that for everyone please. Yeah.

689
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: So basically that when the ship is hit the fan,

690
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: were is the flashlight of your attention?

691
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: Please? In that moment right are you in your own head?

692
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 2: Are you being distracted by stuff?

693
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: Or are you completely focused on the present moment and

694
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: everything that has inputs into your situation right now? So

695
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of that, I guess the umbrella of what

696
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about with awareness. It's about self, it's about situation,

697
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: it's about others, and it's about not being distracted by

698
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: things that that aren't relevant right here, right now.

699
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: It's that kind of feet on the grind thing.

700
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely beautiful. Can we can you just? I mean,

701
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: I hope you don't mind me asking you questions around that.

702
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 3: But this is quite important. So if you're thinking about it,

703
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: not just in a sense of acute acute events, but

704
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: the daily grind. Now I don't know this, but I

705
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 3: get to see many more individuals being affected by the

706
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 3: daily grind than critical incidences, right, And so if you're

707
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 3: thinking about the attention and where we cast that attention

708
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: based on a state we nurture ourselves into or select

709
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: ourselves into, you can have attention on the threat or

710
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 3: something that has the potential of obliterating you. That's kind

711
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: of one thing to mind, yes, But if you limit

712
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 3: yourself to this only, the conclusion is very much in

713
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: that interaction between you and the potential threat. Imagine yourself

714
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 3: being able to find a discipline and the capability which

715
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: all of us have to see a number of these

716
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: touch points ahead to actually start marking away from this

717
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 3: and not just see it as a giant boulder on

718
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: your way. You know, the thing of look around, look

719
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: on the lookover.

720
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: That I like that look around, look on their lookover

721
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: and interesting the other thing where I think it's really

722
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: important for people. And I was delighted to see that

723
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: in your book you talk about gremlin's gremlins in your head.

724
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: We talk about gremlin and siege, right, And so the

725
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: gremlin is the little voice in your head that that

726
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: of doubt that you're not good enough all of this stuff,

727
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: and the siege is your best self, right, So it's

728
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: worries the flashlight of your attention place.

729
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: And for a lot of people the flashlight is.

730
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: Turned in their own heads, struggling in this constant struggle

731
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: with their gremlin and wrestling with their thoughts, wrestling with

732
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: their emotions, all of these things, and not having their

733
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: attention on the right here, right now, and where I

734
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: want to be and my values and all of that stuff.

735
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: Because for me, attention drives everything in the brain. Right,

736
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: your attentional control and that reticular activating system is going

737
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: to put your focus somewhere and then emotions flow and

738
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: thoughts and all this, and then you can end up

739
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: just in this wrestle with your gremlin, all internal, with

740
00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: no actual attention on all the things that matter, such

741
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: as the situation, yourself, other people, values, purpose, where you

742
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: want to go all of this stuff.

743
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 2: So that and I love that.

744
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring up that you had at

745
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: tension in there under awareness and then but I guess

746
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: the big thing for our listeners is how can you

747
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: tree in yourself to respond rather than react?

748
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: Right?

749
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: And we know the difference, but firstly start off with

750
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: what is the difference between responding and reacting? And then

751
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: are there a couple of tools that you can give

752
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: people so that they can over time? Because this just

753
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: isn't that. Here's a tool from doctor Allien Bone. Now

754
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: it's fixed forever, but over time that process. Right, how

755
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: do you tree in yourself through a process so that

756
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: you can respond rather than react using those awareness tools.

757
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 3: I'm scribbling notes because of quite love everything that you're saying.

758
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 3: It's incredible. But the first piece, it's kind of in

759
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 3: the it's in the the recipe is in the name

760
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: of it, right, So how do you how do you

761
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 3: condition yourself? How do you train yourself to respond rather

762
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 3: than react? So The reason why we're focusing on responding

763
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: rather than reacting is that response involves a degree of intentionality.

764
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 3: You can't be resilient, can't grow, can't live by design

765
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: unless you are intentional about where it is you're heading

766
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 3: and what are you trying to achieve. When you're talking

767
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: about attention and where your attention goes, that too, is

768
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: about intentionality. You have countless opportunities every day of your

769
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: life to be scattered by a thousand different trigger points

770
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: available in your environment that tango dance to perfection with

771
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: that gremlin on the insight, you know what I mean? Like, Yeah, Like,

772
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 3: if you want to if you want to just have

773
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: a really I don't know, entertaining life, all you need

774
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 3: to do is just show up, gremlins and all, and

775
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 3: watch the world trigger you. Yes, So it's kind of

776
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 3: a little tricky, right, because it has to start. We

777
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: have to start with the end in mind. Yes, so

778
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 3: many extraordinary humans out there aiming to develop some sort

779
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 3: of robust version of themselves. Any absence of context, you

780
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: can't You can't just show up and be super trained

781
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 3: and have done that. You can't do that in a bubble.

782
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: So if we're coming back to my Grandma's quod probably

783
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: which is existence is resistance. Can you build that stuff

784
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: through life? Again, coming back to Franco, you know you

785
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 3: do life by responding to life, which means you have

786
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 3: to engage with challenges to condution that ability to have

787
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: response rather than reaction. So the difference reaction is a

788
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 3: you know, you effectively find yourself forced into a minimal

789
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 3: range because you haven't given yourself any options. Response intentionality,

790
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 3: which means you start with the end in mind. So

791
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: the most important tool I think to build your capacity

792
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 3: to be responsive rather than reactive is to be clear

793
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 3: who it is that you want to be and how

794
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 3: it is that you want to show up and as

795
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: a consequence of that, to be very honest, to conduct

796
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: an honest audit. It doesn't have to be with professionals.

797
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 3: It can be with yourself of what it is that

798
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: triggers you, what holds you back, what fuels you, and

799
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: once you clear on that stuff to start going after it.

800
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 3: There are no shortcuts with this, you know, they don't.

801
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: These sorts of things don't happen in your own head.

802
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 3: They have to happen in interaction with life. With the

803
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: friction points in life start with the end in mind,

804
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: conduct an honest audit of what fuels and what deplets you,

805
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 3: and when you know it, don't tinker on a peripherace.

806
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 3: Go after those things. Allow yourself to notice that for

807
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 3: everything that triggers you, there are countless different responses that

808
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 3: allow you to just be a If you want a

809
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 3: passive observer of this gremlin, you don't have to engage

810
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: yourself in the tangle dance. The trick, though, is that

811
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 3: many of us are very much attached to the minor

812
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 3: white noise of the daily grind. If we are to

813
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: take that honest audit, we are going to recognize that

814
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 3: we are very much attached to that melody, the minor

815
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: drama melody. Do you know what I'm talking about?

816
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So I think the people.

817
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: I love the concept of the white noise, right, the

818
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: white noise of the daily grind.

819
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: That because people just get sucked into it totally, of course.

820
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 3: I mean it's very It can occupy you for a while, right, yeah.

821
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: People spent years there, years, And I love the.

822
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: Existence is distance and I mean your your your grandmother

823
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: is a definitely a an.

824
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: Incarnation of the Stoics. I think the Stoic philosophers. But

825
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: the engage with challenges.

826
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: For me, this is critical and I think, you know,

827
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: if we if we broaden the lens just to talk

828
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: about today, I think one of the worst things that

829
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: has happened today is this expectation that kids in our

830
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: youth are coming up and lots of people have, that

831
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: life should be easy, and that life should be you know,

832
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: kind of walk in the park, and that that stressors

833
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 1: are things to be avoided. And you know, the first

834
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: noble truth of Buddhism life is suffering duka, which actually

835
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: literally translates as hard to do. And for me, a

836
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: big step in all of this is understanding that life

837
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: is fucking amazing, but it will also be hard, but

838
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: that there are two sides of the coin. And you

839
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: have to with the Stoics talked about the contest is

840
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: upon us the Olympic Games of life, right, and if

841
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: it's the Olympic Games, you've got to engage it. You're

842
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: at the freaking Olympics. You've got to embrace challenges to

843
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: test and develop your character.

844
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 2: You know that for me is a.

845
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: Psychological orientation that kind of drives everything else. Is this

846
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: what is your automatic mindset to challenges that will and

847
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: are inevitable. And the shit sandwiches from the universe, right,

848
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: are they something that you want to shy away from

849
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: and hide or are they too for you to use

850
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: to fully engage with, to actually give yourself that mean?

851
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: And it comes back to the meaning and purpose.

852
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: Right, beautifully done. So I love this. The contest is

853
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: upon us should be lettered, right, and so I think

854
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 3: that's the absolutely beautiful. So if I walk my way

855
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 3: back to the starting point, is the expectation that life

856
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: is in some way going to have to be easy

857
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: and stress also are to be avoided. I can't think

858
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 3: of anything more frightening, seriously, but doesn't it, you know

859
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 3: what I mean? So virtually every system we have in

860
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 3: us that we recognize in the most rudimentary way is

861
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: designed for this experience, do you know what I mean.

862
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: I've got an epic ten year old next door on

863
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 3: school holiday, and we were talking yesterday about him having overtrained,

864
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 3: you know, and the physical pain that you have in

865
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 3: your body when you have overtrained. And even here was

866
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 3: observing that the human body is designed for this kind

867
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 3: of stuff. Yeah, because you know what I mean? And

868
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: so he was giving you a lecture on you know,

869
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 3: how muscles get ripped and then they grow. I mean,

870
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 3: everything about us is designed to seek this and I

871
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: don't know who decided to give us this little recipe

872
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 3: for life, but it's very wrong. It doesn't lead to

873
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: anything worth living with, you know. So I absolutely love

874
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 3: everything you had to say. And so it kind of

875
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 3: comes down to this word that has been overused over

876
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 3: the last little while too, mindset. And people do think

877
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 3: that this superficial thing called mindset is somewhat innate. It's not. Again,

878
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 3: it's tessted. It's developed in action. You don't just get

879
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 3: born with it. There are conditions that allow you to

880
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: find the nuances to it. Yes, some of us are

881
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 3: more predisposed to look for that hard stuff as profile.

882
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 3: I can say that there were probably personality predictors that

883
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 3: allow us to confident with that. Yes, But seeing that

884
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 3: resilience in life is very much a personal business. The

885
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 3: only thing to be done is to just step out

886
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 3: of that comfort zone, not get the edges of it

887
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: over and over and over again, and before you know it,

888
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 3: you develop an appetite for that stuff. Yeah you do.

889
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 3: Have you ever found yourself in moments where you may

890
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: have contemplated something as mildly overwhelming or slightly kind of

891
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 3: on a frightening side of the continuum, and then you

892
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 3: you get on with the journey of life. Anyway, look

893
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: back and go, really that was the remblin, Are you

894
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 3: kidding me? That tiny thing? How could I? Right? But

895
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 3: you don't yet. So anyway, the job to be done

896
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 3: is to build an appetite for that stuff.

897
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that, that building an appetite. And you

898
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: know there's inferred in that is that you have to

899
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: eat right, So you have to you have to get involved.

900
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: And and this is you know, something I see in

901
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: parenting that just drives me mad. But also it's frustrating,

902
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 1: is that parents who are trying to bring their kids

903
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: up in a world devoid of stress. And I'm just like,

904
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: that is the.

905
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 2: Wrong answer, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Right.

906
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: You show me one highly resilient person who's had an

907
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: easy life, you know, who hasn't been through adversity.

908
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: You know, that's the I mean, the storics talked about

909
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: this ad nauseum that you know, this is.

910
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: The fire that forges us. So let's talk about something

911
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: that's really important here. We mentioned it in your whole experience,

912
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: and that's belonging, which is the next part of the book.

913
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: How does that affect how we view deal with some

914
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 1: recover from stress.

915
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: Belonging, the feeling of being accepted again, words and all,

916
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 3: was a critical predicta of our ability to hold us

917
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: else together in this particular incident. Speaking of incidences itself,

918
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 3: right as my bread and butter used to be organizational psychologist,

919
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 3: so studying teams and what it is that make them,

920
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, traversity and non effectively, So the feeling that

921
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 3: you are worthy, that you have something to contribute, and

922
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 3: that someone has you back is the single most important

923
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 3: predictor in challenging circumstances. Right, But oftentimes when we're thinking

924
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 3: about belonging, we are thinking of a team or familial group,

925
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 3: something along those lines. I've come to realize that over

926
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: time that it's about kind of the spine of belief

927
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: that holds you together, your own sense of purpose, the

928
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 3: values that believes that, the views that contain you and

929
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 3: give you a sense of drive. Really that's what belonging

930
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: can be about. It's appreciating that the person standing there,

931
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 3: holding the ground beneath your feet is worthy and By

932
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: the way, I don't know if I fully agree with

933
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 3: worthy as is. Yes, everyone is worthy as they are.

934
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 3: But belonging for resilience is worthiness that develops in action,

935
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: you know, is that feeling that anything that comes your

936
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: way is something that you could at least engage with

937
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 3: as opposed to avoid. That's that kind of belonging to

938
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: self in a moment.

939
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: And is there a component about belonging to a tribe

940
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: that's important here?

941
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely, This little piece brings me back to some

942
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: of the crisis that you were mentioning earlier with our

943
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: veterans the world over. Actually belonging to a tribe, belonging

944
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 3: to a broader, bigger purpose than yourself, that's incredibly galvanizing.

945
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 3: It holds you because you know, it holds you on

946
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 3: behalf of others, on behalf of something other than yourself.

947
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 3: It's extraordinarily important. And perhaps one thing we all know

948
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: we've observed that for the last little while is the

949
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 3: erosion of community or you know, team. That stuff frightens

950
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 3: me even more than your avoidance of stress.

951
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: You know, Look, I tend to agree, and I'm I'm

952
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I'm a recovering Catholic right. I've been

953
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,399
Speaker 1: in recovery for about forty years, so I'm not religious

954
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: at all, and there's not a religious bone in my body.

955
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 2: But I do.

956
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: Believe more and more that a lot of societal problems

957
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: and stay them from the breakdown of religion and because

958
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: and and not from religion per se, but that whole

959
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: part of a group with shared values and and and

960
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: when and and and holding to account of yourself and

961
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: others to a certain set of standards. But you take

962
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: that away and absent somebody then doing the work around

963
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: what are my values, what is my purpose? We end

964
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: up with an existential crisis that's there. So it's not

965
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: that it's just religion per se, but it's the religion

966
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: taken away and that vacuum around shared tribe, belongings, values,

967
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. I think that is a significant

968
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: contributor to the mental health issues that we're experiencing today,

969
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: and it plays into the whole resilience thing.

970
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. She had purpose

971
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: shared values. I couldn't agree with you more. And there's

972
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: a see this is there's a galvanizing thing inside of

973
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 3: that too. I think one of the one of the

974
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 3: little lines that I had in my book was it

975
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: hit me. It's so simple, but you know, there's a

976
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 3: significant difference between belonging to a coffee club again, or

977
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 3: you know, a pig performing team for example, or a

978
00:57:55,240 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 3: nurturing community