WEBVTT - Episode 15: Taking Flight 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.720 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.200 you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. You heard 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.480 John Winfield's voice actor say in the previous episode. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.919 I mean she wasn't hostile or anything like that. 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.680 John was responding to a question from Detective Sergeant Glenn 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.800 Taylor about Bromwin's attitude towards John when he turned up 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.960 at Sandstone Crescent. That's set out on page thirty six 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.760 of the official interview transcript from that morning in early 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.039 August nineteen ninety eight, as John sat in the police 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.400 station in Ballina with detectives Taylor and Wayne Temby asking questions. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.720 There are forty pages of transcript from that interview left 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.279 to analyze. Some of the most important references are coming 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:29.399 up now. Back in episode five of the Bromwin podcast series, 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.520 Maddie Walsh and I talked about the importance of timelines. 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:40.000 Timelines are so important, definitely in cases like this. They 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.160 help us understand what's going on. YEA, who said, what when, 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.640 what happened? As you go through it, it'll become more 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.360 and more detail. I remember talking to us to a 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:56.640 great criminal lawyer, and he said, timelines win cases. But 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.600 until I had time to look more closely at the 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.000 transfer script of the police interview for the previous episode 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.880 and this one, neither Maddie nor I realized that there 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.280 was something very wrong in a particular part of John's story. 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:17.640 Let's start unpacking this. Here's John's next response on page 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:22.639 thirty six of the transcript. Remember he's describing being at 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.600 the house in Sandstone Crescent on Sunday night. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.560 And then that was when sometime I'm trying to think 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.839 that was probably it was after seven o'clock. It might 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.560 have been even after eight o'clock by that time. I 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.400 can't remember, honestly. All I know is it was dark. 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.960 You know, it was probably at least an hour or 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.880 maybe an hour and a half after the plane landed, 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.320 whatever time that was. And that was dark, because I 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.239 remember I got off the plane in the dark. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.119 It was two phone calls, mate, Yeah, apparently one at 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.040 six fifty three pm and one at seven oh six. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:10.839 Pm, six fifty three seven. Yeah. Do you know did 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.160 you make any phone Cooks? 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.000 No, I didn't make Apparently she made a couple of 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:21.200 calls to Graham told me she had a solicitor, Yes, 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:26.600 another solicitor she had in Lismore, the guy that used 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.320 to be on the radio all the time, you know, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.080 legal advice on a Thursday. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.880 John is referring here to Chris mcdebitt. Christopher. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.760 Yeah, that's him. Yeah, yeah, she had him actually, and 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.240 she had his home phone number. And this is what 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.520 Graham said, apparently because Graham looked on her telephone accounts 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.400 afterwards and he told me the phone calls were made 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.760 to his place, his house. 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:00.960 Detective Tempi, can you just assist in relation to the identity. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.480 Of those chief phone numbers? First one was I think 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.520 that's Jody's Is it? Five? Two one, three to one? 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.320 Wayne Temby read out a seven digit telephone number, which 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.120 we will not repeat in full in the episode. John 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.360 Winfield replied to the detective Senior Constable's question like this. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.719 Yeah, it is. Yeah. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.680 It is interesting that in his first response to Glen 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.720 Taylor's question, John says that he did not make any calls, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.039 but then Glen Taylor asked Detective Temb during the interview 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.760 with John to help in relation to the two calls 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.240 in question, as these two calls were long distance or 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:48.960 STD the abbreviation for subscriber trunk dialing. They were noted 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.800 in detail on the paper telephone bill for Sandstone Crescent 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.320 for the month of May nineteen ninety three. The time 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.600 the phone calls were made, the duration of the calls, 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.600 and the numbers dialed are printed on that telephone bill, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.240 which the detectives had in the interview room when they 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:12.440 were questioning John. This itemized telephone bill and copies of 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.880 it are still in existence. We've got a copy of 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.680 it in our files on the case. 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.039 Oh I see, yeah, I rang that one, yeah, to 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.800 tell Jody I was at home. Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:33.120 I remember that's six fifty three. Okay, that's seven o'clock. Yeah, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:34.679 so that was Jody. 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:35.360 Yeah. 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.800 I rang Jody and said, okay, I'm back home now, 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.279 you know, because I sort of come up now. I 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.359 remember that's Jody and my brother the one at seven 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.200 oh six. Yes, my brother, yep, I rang my brother too. Yes, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.680 that's my brother's number. Yeah, I forgot about that. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:59.080 Yeah, So there was no no SHD calls, which Bromwin 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.600 may Well, I don't know. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:06.359 Yeah, I remember that's Jadie and my brother. Well, I 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.920 rang them to say I'd arrived home safely, you know. Yeah, Yeah, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:11.760 I forgot about that. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.240 Your brother's name's Peter, is it, Yeah, Peter Winfield. 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:17.440 Yeah. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.000 Is Peter still living in Sydney? 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:21.360 Yeah, anger Den. 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.400 Okay, so you've made they've TIFA calls and then you're 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.880 still sitting around the dining room with the children. 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.960 Yeah, I think so. I can't remember what was bronwin doing. 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:34.840 Well. 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.400 I made the phone calls from the telephone in the kitchen. 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.840 There's another telephone in the main bedroom, and she went 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.839 into the main bedroom and made these ones apparently too. Apparently, 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.080 I don't know. I wasn't in the bedroom with her. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.280 I don't know. I didn't know, But all I know 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.839 is that she went in the bedroom and that it 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:02.520 was Graham. That was Graham told me that where the 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.120 phone calls were going. Because I was surprised when he 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.320 told me, because I didn't know you could trace local 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.200 phone calls and I had no idea you could do it. 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.400 And then he told me you could, and he did it. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:15.680 You know. 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.080 But there are some loocians and concerning discrepancies in all 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.800 of this, and they cry out for further investigation. They 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.240 could be really important in this case. For reasons that 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:34.560 will soon become obvious. These loose eians became obvious to 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.680 me while I was reading documents during the drafting of 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:42.720 this episode. As a result, I've been emailing and calling 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:48.320 former and current airline pilots, aviation regulators, even collectors of 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:53.760 old airline timetables. I have been helped enormously by some 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.920 very clever listeners who went into full private detective mode 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.720 to help me find the answers. We have been trying 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.560 to confirm the arrival time in Balliner on May sixteen, 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:10.160 nineteen ninety three of the flight which John Winfield bordered 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:15.320 in Sydney earlier that day. It was a seventy to 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:21.160 eighty minute flight. The airline Anset Australia, which collapsed several 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.520 years later, flew the route for several days. I was 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.880 tantalizingly close because of the discovery of an ANSET timetable 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.520 for the months of September nineteen ninety two to March 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:38.120 of nineteen ninety three. That timetable sets out all the 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.760 ANSET flights and their departure times for the hop from 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.840 Sydney to Balliner. But I didn't have the May nineteen 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:52.240 ninety three timetable. We were close no cigar. Here's why 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.960 it might be crucial in this podcast series. You have 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.880 heard me say that John Winfield called his daughter Jody 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.040 and his brother Peter at six point fifty three pm 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.800 and seven h six pm respectively, from the house at 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.520 Sandstone Crescent on May sixteen when he arrived at the house, 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:19.200 and it seemed uncontroversial. John Winfield confirmed this as you've 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.360 just heard in his interview with Glenn Taylor in nineteen 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.240 ninety eight. There just didn't appear to be anything unusual 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.760 about it. But while going through John's interview transcript, it 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.559 struck me that the timing appeared to make it very difficult, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.280 if not impossible, for John to have made those calls. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.440 Here's what his friend John Watson stated in his police 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.480 statement in nineteen ninety eight. 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:48.880 John was wringing me from Sydney and he asked me 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.080 if I could pick him up from the Ballina Airport 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.440 and give him a lift home. That night, about six 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.439 thirty pm, I went to the airport and I met John. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.040 He asked me if I could take him to the 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.160 Ballener Police station prior. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:02.760 To taking him home. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.920 I drove him to the police station, and I waited 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.200 in the car while he went in. He was in 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.400 the police station for about five minutes. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.240 We do not know the time at which John Watson 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:20.199 drove away from Balliner Airport with John Winfield, but if 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.960 the pickup went smoothly despite all of John's gear and 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:28.520 his surfboard, and if the flight landed around six twenty 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.720 five pm, let's say they got away at six forty pm. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.240 It takes a good ten minutes or so to get 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.440 from the airport to Balloner Police station, but let's say 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:45.040 they do it very quickly, in just seven minutes. Glenn 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.960 Taylor was told by John Winfield that he was in 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:52.800 the police station for about fifteen minutes. John Watson, in 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.320 his police statement estimated that he was waiting in his 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.920 car outside the police station for about five minutes. Let's 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.680 be generous and go with the five minute estimate. That 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.040 means it would have been after six point fifty pm 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.120 when John Winfield is the passenger in John Watson's car 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.559 driving away from Barner Police Station to pick up Becky 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:20.160 McGuire from her home in Lenox Head. John Watson said 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.720 they drove to either Gibbons Street or Stuart Street in 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.760 lenox Head to collect Becky. It doesn't make much difference 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.280 because both of those streets, just a few blocks northwest 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.720 of the retail strip in Lenox Head are about the 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:39.480 same distance from Barner Police Station. I've done the trip 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.920 many times now. It's a good fifteen minutes. The two 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.160 men and the young woman say they then drove to 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:51.920 Sandstone Crescent together and that's going to take seven minutes minimum. 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:57.120 The upshot is this, if the Ansett Australia jet landed 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.439 just before six thirty pm, and John then wore off 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.720 and very quickly collected his luggage and surfboard, then went 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:08.040 directly to the police station and then to lennox Head 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.520 to get Becky. The earliest that they could have arrived 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.120 at his house in Sandstone Crescent would have been about 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.280 seven point fifteen pm, the house which bronwin had moved 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.080 back into with the two girls on the Friday night 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.880 after asking a locksmith to come out to remove the 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.079 locks which John had put on to try to prevent 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.720 his estranged wife from getting back inside the house. But 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.280 that's not all, because the evidence of Becky is that 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.480 John Winfield then drove her in the family Ford Falcon 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.120 back to Becky's home in Lennox Head John Watson had left. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.880 John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.320 of the house and John knocked on the door. The 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.040 door opened and Bronwin and the children were standing at 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.640 the door. I wasn't really paying much attention at the time, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.280 but I recall Bronwyn babbling on about something, but they 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.640 weren't arguing. Bronwin walked back into the house towards the kitchen, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.920 and John gave the girls a cuddle, and I saw 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.840 that Lauren was crying. I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.319 and John picked them up and put them in the car. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.160 John must have had a set of keys to the car, 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.240 because we then got into the car and he drove 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.600 me home. I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.800 at the window inside the house, watching as we reversed 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.240 out of the driveway. John didn't go inside the house 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.800 at all while I was in the house with him. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.839 While we were driving back to my house, John thanked 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.880 me for coming with him and told me he was 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.560 sorry for getting me involved. I haven't seen Bronwin since 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.360 that night I went to her place with John. 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.560 John Winfield then must have returned on his own to 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.080 go to the home in Sandstone Crescent. It's got to 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.440 be about seven thirty pm before he gets there, and 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:23.040 that's if the plane landed at about six thirty pm. 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.440 My name is Karina Berger. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.080 Three months before the release of this episode, a listener 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.520 emailed we were in Ireland on leave at the time. 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:39.240 I'm contacting you to offer my assistance with legal research, analysis, etc. 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.600 For Bronwan or any other podcasts you might have in 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.320 the pipeline. I love true crime and working to solve 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.040 a problem or mystery. I also find undertaking work that 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.520 is in the public interest very rewarding. Some of my 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:58.600 particular strengths are my attention to detail, communication and organization 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.920 and project management SKI and my ability to recall information 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.640 and facts. If you ever require another pair of hands 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.280 and think my skill set might be beneficial, I would 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:10.640 be very happy to hear from you. 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.360 Karina is an experienced lawyer with a particular interest in 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.320 coronial inquest work, and she has worked on many coronial 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:24.200 investigations and inquests over the years. She was following the 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:30.200 Bromwin podcast very closely. We started exchanging emails around the 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.720 same time offers of help from other women with proven 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.920 experience in investigations in the criminal justice system were coming in. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:43.600 Some have preferred anonymity. They're all amazing and very generous 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:48.440 with their time. Three days after I first became suspicious 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.400 about those calls from the house, I raised it with 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.560 Karna over a Greek salad in Brisbane. The timing was good. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.040 She was visiting from interstate with her husband for his work. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.400 Karina flew home late that afternoon and she resolved to 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.680 start looking for a thirty one year old timetable which 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.800 might show when a long defunct airline used to fly 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.360 to the airport of a regional town in New South 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:17.120 Wales on Sundays in May nineteen ninety three. My other 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.040 contacts from the podcast listenership were also on the job 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:26.440 trying to locate this key information. In northern New South Wales, 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.200 my friend and colleague Matt Condon called. We spoke about 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.640 the driving that he would do while retracing where John 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.200 would have gone thirty one years ago. After the anset 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.720 jet landed. Then Matt rang off, turned on his voice 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:43.560 recorder and got ready to roll. 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:58.200 This is the side of obviously the old Byron Ballina 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.479 Regional airport. I remember getting. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.280 Flights to and from Sydney into here. 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.040 It hasn't changed that much that we're here now to 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.720 follow John Winfield's timeline and we'll. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.520 Just see how the templates marry up. 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.760 Okay, just leaving the airport and out, traffic conditions are 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:26.520 pretty light. Simple direct route from the airport down to 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.879 the police station, past the Ballona Bayside and Ballon Affair 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.200 shopping centers, straight down to River Street and hang a left. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.520 We're at over. 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.080 Five minutes at the moment, so I've arrived at the 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:46.159 Ballina Police station on River Street at twelve minutes and 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:51.480 eleven seconds. Winfield claims that he was brought here by 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.920 mister Watson and went into the station to check if 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.879 there were any legal restraints against him as in Bronwyn, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:11.840 placing possibly domestic violence restrictions on his proximity to her. Okay, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.800 that's exactly five minutes. I'm now leaving the police station 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.919 and heading towards the Ocean Road, which will head up 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:19.960 to Lenox. 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:21.600 Seventeen minutes eleven seconds. 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.640 There's a sort of little backway here to get onto 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:28.840 that which the locals would know, and it would be 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:36.160 a logical way through Ballinatown to get onto that coastal road. 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.320 I'm just coming through the main drag of Lenox. 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.000 There was a little bit of traffic, not a lot, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.000 but it might have accounted for twenty or thirty seconds 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:53.640 over and above a clean run through that street. I've 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.600 just arrived where he picks up Jody's friend. We'll wait 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.119 for ninety seconds. It's thirty four minutes and fifteen seconds. 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.760 Just arrived outside the house at Sandstone Crescent. It was 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.359 forty one minutes and thirty nine seconds. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.040 I'll wait now. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:20.879 For another ninety seconds before we head back to drop 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:26.879 the young woman off and then come back to Sandstone. Right, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.000 we're back at Gibbon forty nine minutes and one second. 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:37.960 We'll wait for fifteen seconds to Sandstone for the final leg. Okay, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.560 just pulled up back at Sandstone Crescent in front of 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:47.000 the house. That journey from the airport took precisely fifty 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.840 six minutes and thirty five seconds. 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:54.320 Hey Matt, how'd you go? 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.399 I went from Ballino Airport, did all the stops, and 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.680 finally I've returned here back at Sandstone Crescent and giving 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.159 Winfield sort of two minutes at the end of the 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.520 journey to meet and greet his kids, etc. At the 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.320 door of the property which I'm parked out the front. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.480 The final time came in at fifty eight minutes and 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.000 thirty five seconds, right. 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:26.040 Well, that's consistent with what John Winfield himself says in 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.119 the record of interview that he's done with Glenn Taylor 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:33.600 in nineteen ninety eight. So he says something like it 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:35.960 was about an hour to an hour and a half 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.480 after he'd arrived in Ballener that he got into the house. 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.119 So that makes sense exactly if we round it up 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.600 to one hour. He would have had to have arrived 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.679 in Ballaner and be getting into John Watson's car at 0:20:53.760 --> 0:21:01.440 Banner Airport by five fifty pm on Sunday May sixteen 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.000 for him to have been able to make that first 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:12.000 phone call at six fifty three pm to his daughter 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:13.720 Jody on that same day. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:16.240 What time did the plane land? 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.960 This is still the missing piece in this puzzle. We 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:26.720 know from John Watson's statement that John Watson says he 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.000 got to the airport at six thirty pm to collect 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:36.320 John Winfield. What we don't have for certain yet is 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:41.920 the arrival time of the aircraft from Sydney. We've got 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:48.280 a timetable that shows that in the months of October 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:54.440 to March, and said Australia had aircraft leaving at six 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:59.199 ten pm in Sydney and arriving into Ballana at seven 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:05.000 thirty But we don't yet have the timetable for the 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:10.199 months following the end of March, whether the timetable changed 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:16.400 for those subsequent months. You know Matt from previous episodes 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.800 in this series, as well as from his work in 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:23.000 other podcast investigations I've done into the murders of Australian women. 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.919 In a coincidental piece of voice acting symmetry. You know 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.439 Matt's voice from this episode too, because he read the 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:36.000 lines from the police statement of John Watson. Matt suggested 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.840 that the aircraft possibly landed in May nineteen ninety three 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:44.200 at around six thirty pm, not seven thirty pm. Matt 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.960 suggested that that might have happened because of daylight saving. 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:51.439 If you're a boat is in New South Wales in 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.080 the beginning of October of any given year, I think 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.879 since the early nineteen seventies, so you actually on a 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:02.919 Sunday you turn your clock forward one hour at the 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:08.240 beginning of daylight saving, so in essence you're losing an hour, 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.720 but by going forward it gives you an extra hour 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:13.840 or so of daylight at the end of the day, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.000 which is the point of daylight saving, and that is 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.359 for people to be able to finish work and enjoy 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:24.160 the daylight in the summer months. Come April the following year, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.560 six months later, daylight saving ends in New South Wales, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.919 so you have to claw back that hour and it 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.200 goes back to normal Eastern Standard time. The flight, as 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:40.720 we know, was in May, so daylight saving was well 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:44.320 and truly over by at least six seven weeks by then, 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:47.840 so the clocks would have gone back an hour to 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:52.919 parity with the East Coast. So if a flight in March, 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:57.600 for example, landed in Ballina at seven point thirty pm 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:03.840 during daylight saving hours beyond April outside of daylight saving hours, 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.639 that flight would have landed at around six thirty pm, 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.840 so you claw back the hour. If he'd landed at 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:13.800 six thirty, it was picked up at six thirty pm 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:15.960 and then went to the bell on the police station, 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:21.520 so seven eleven pm is the first revisit to Sandstone 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.520 then to go back to be able to pick up Becky. 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:31.520 He would have arrived there at seven nineteen pm. Give 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:36.159 them ninety seconds for that, and then to swing back 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:40.760 to Sandstone, and to give him credit for a couple 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:43.119 of minutes of meeting and greeting at the door and 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.199 getting back into the house. He would have been in 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:52.400 Sandstone Crescent after all of that journey at around about 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.640 seven twenty eight pm. 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:59.360 Well, how does he make these telephone calls that he 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.720 said he made to Jody and to Peter at six 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.680 fifty three pm and then seven ozh six pm from 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:08.919 Sandstone Crescent. 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:14.840 Well, he couldn't have, because going by these specific times, 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:17.320 he wasn't in the house to make the calls. 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.480 Let's go with a hypothetical, allow for perhaps a mistaken memory. 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:26.320 They didn't get Becky, or he decided to go to 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.680 the house at Sandstone Crescent ahead of getting Becky, something 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.919 like that. It seems from those time stamps, Matt, that 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.000 he still can't make it in time to make a 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.199 call at six fifty three pm, twenty three minutes after 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:44.240 the John Watson six thirty pm pick up at Balner Airport. No, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:48.359 there's no way you know these roads, Matt. You've driven 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:52.240 them a lot before the Bromwin podcast, and more so 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:56.119 since we've been working on it together. Can you imagine 0:25:56.200 --> 0:26:00.199 being able to drive from the Ballina Police station to 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:07.760 Bromwin's old house in Sandstone Crescent, Lenox Head in six 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:10.280 to seven minutes. It's impossible. 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:15.240 I've done the journey from Ballina Town Center along the 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:20.840 Coast Road for innumerable reasons, kids soccer, shopping at Woolies 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:23.960 at the back of Lennox invariably in the back of 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.440 your head. You know, it takes on average at least 0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:30.440 fifteen minutes. There's no way around that. I mean, that's 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.840 even with a clear run. That's just the time it takes. 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:34.840 It's as simple as that. 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.600 I don't want us to count o chickens before they've hatched. 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.679 But this is a really big loose end because John 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:46.600 was adamant in his police interview that he made those 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:52.439 telephone calls. He was initially saying he didn't make any calls, 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:54.280 and then when propped it, he goes, oh, yeah, that's right, 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:57.280 I remember now I did make those calls. 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:03.520 Neither of them correspond on the timeline to Jonathan Winfield 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.760 being in the house and physically able to make those calls. 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:10.720 If he didn't make those phone calls because he couldn't 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:15.399 have been in the house. Then I'm suggesting the only 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:20.360 person who could have made those calls was Bromwin, and 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:25.400 I think that's consistent with Bromwin having telephoned her solicitor, 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:29.200 Chris mcdebott in the late afternoon because of her concern 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:35.200 about John's imminent return. John says that he made those 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:40.480 calls basically to tell his daughter and his brother that 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.560 he had arrived safely and was in the house. 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:50.520 I'm just thinking of myself and my own family, saying 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:56.440 I flew from Sydney to Ballina, which is a relatively 0:27:56.520 --> 0:28:02.919 short flight within the same state. I fail to see 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:07.440 why there would be any reason or urgency to ring 0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:10.760 not one family member but two to alert them that 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:15.160 they had arrived safely an hour and twenty minute flight maximum. 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.280 I'm not sure what sort of peril could one could 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:22.720 encounter in a humble domestic flight from Sydney de Ballena. 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.600 If you're flying into Delhi, or if you're flying into 0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:30.240 Barcelona or London and you'd had a long haul, I 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:34.000 would totally understand that, but I simply cannot comprehend why 0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:37.360 someone would have to alert close family members to their 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:41.440 safety after a very short domestic flight. 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:43.960 It makes no sense. 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:48.960 It's just simply illogical and something most certainly that I 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:50.960 wouldn't do, and I think most people wouldn't do. 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:53.120 My supposition on. 0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:56.560 Your theory is that I think you've nailed it, even 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:59.320 if the timeline's out by a few minutes either side. 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:01.800 I reckon she's made those. 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:08.080 Calls six point fifty three pm. Is the first one. 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.560 Six fifty three pm? 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:10.400 Yes? 0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:12.880 And when's the next one? 0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:14.600 Seven six pm? 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:18.080 Something has prompted her to make the first call and 0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:20.680 then another call twelve thirty minutes later. 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:25.360 If this theory is right, she brings Jody because it 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.200 was to Jody that she had her earlier conversation in 0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:30.360 which she said, your dad had better not approach me, 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.480 or worse to that effect. If Jody and Peter have 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:39.520 no way of contacting John, what's the utility of Bromin 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:41.920 contacting them when John's on the way. 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:47.840 Well, she's tried the solicitor, right, Yeah, and somehow she's 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:52.160 learned he's on the way, made the call at six 0:29:52.160 --> 0:29:53.880 point fifty three in a panic. 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.800 It's impossible he can't have made those calls. It's impossible. 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:04.760 And the only other explanation is that John Watson's claim 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:07.320 that he arrived to pick up John at six thirty 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:10.040 pm is wrong, and that in fact it was five 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:11.000 thirty pm. 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:15.680 If it was five thirty, then that may work in 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:17.880 terms of him being in the house. 0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:21.160 He gets to the house then by six thirty bit 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:23.680 of meeting and greeting and he has a cup of 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:26.880 tea and then he makes those calls. But that's the 0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:27.560 only way. 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:31.240 That's the only way. Yes, where did you come up 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:32.760 with the five thirty time? 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.760 I've just plucked it out of the air, taken two 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:40.920 hours off the arrival time of seven thirty. Yeah, he 0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:46.600 says it was dark when he landed. Now, sunset at 0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:51.360 that time was after five shortly after five pm. Yes, 0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:55.080 it would have had to have left Sydney at fourteen pm, 0:30:55.840 --> 0:31:01.239 two hours earlier than the schedule. In the month of 0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:07.600 March yeap. What would be John's potential motive to claim 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:10.920 that he made those two phone calls if in fact 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:12.040 Broman had made them. 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:15.920 We know she's on alert because she's phoned her solicitor, 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:21.360 so she's in that heightened state. If she's phoned Jody 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:25.640 and Peter Winfield. One can only imagine logically it would 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:28.520 be out of concern for her safety. 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:30.640 He doesn't want the police to know. 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:36.680 Now, with the benefit of hindsight, would John Winfield have 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:42.080 worried about two things? Firstly, he's worried that there are 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:46.120 two people in the world, Jody and Peter, who know 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:51.160 that she is fearful at that moment. And secondly, his 0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:53.800 consideration would be to keep them out. 0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:54.240 Of the narrative. 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:59.680 So is this woman who's already been warned that John's 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:01.600 not going to like it that she's back at the house. 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:05.400 She's worked up enough to ring the solicitor and seek advice. 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:11.440 She anticipating his arrival and not knowing whether he might 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.280 be in a mood or how he might react, it 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.760 would be very logical for her to reach out to 0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:19.440 two of the closest people to him to try and 0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:23.680 work out what do I do. I'm in trouble here, Yeah, 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:29.400 that makes sense. I'll just ride out the timestamp timeline 0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:29.760 for you. 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:33.240 Thank you so much, Matt, and I'll keep trying to 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:37.480 find the timing of that flight. Some listeners may not 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:41.080 have heard of the once massive answered Australia Airline and 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:45.840 its founder, Sir reginald Anset. Here's a promotional clip from 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:47.400 the early nineteen nineties. 0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:51.280 It's no wonder the Answered group of Airlines flies the 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:55.719 largest domestic fleet in Australasia. Our constant aim is to 0:32:55.720 --> 0:32:59.240 provide you with excellence in products and service. 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:04.120 When this much loved airline folded in two thousand and one, 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:08.440 it was Australia's largest corporate collapse, with more than sixteen 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:13.560 thousand jobs lost. Back in Canberra, two days after I 0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:18.280 had first met her, Karina Berger had a breakthrough. Karina. 0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:20.480 When I met you at lunch in Brisbane and told 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:24.440 you how I was looking for timetables for Anset in 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:28.760 nineteen ninety three and they were proving really elusive. You 0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.240 probably didn't expect that you'd be on the chase for 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:33.280 them within a day or so. 0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:35.520 I love a challenge, heed Ley, so I was happy 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:35.920 to help. 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:37.280 How did you find it? 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:41.440 I started off with a basic Google search. It made 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:44.920 me realize that timetables for planes and other modes of 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:48.840 transport are actually really collectible items, and there's quite a 0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:51.959 lot of private collectors who tend to catalog them and 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.320 post blogs about them and take pictures of their covers 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:58.040 and things like that and pop them online. And that 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.360 was really helpful because I could have a look at 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.720 what people had put up on the Internet, and I 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:07.880 realized that there were a couple of timetables from Anset 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:12.880 that existed in nineteen ninety three. The problem was, though, 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.799 that these people only had pictures of the covers, and 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:19.600 they didn't seem to have photographs of the actual timetables 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:24.360 themselves or PDF copies. I reached out to Air Services 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:27.960 Australia in the hope that they might have actual flight 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:32.359 records for the Ballina Airport on the sixteenth of May 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:37.440 nineteen ninety three, and I contacted the National Library of 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:41.279 Australia and did some searches of their online catalog. So 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:45.080 I then turned to the National Archives of Australia catalog 0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.600 and the New South Wales State Archives catalogs and had 0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:52.920 to look there, But those searches also weren't very fruitful, 0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:55.600 and so then I just went back to Google and 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.800 started to work my way through all of the hits, 0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:04.160 and I came across the Sir reginald Anset Transport Museum, 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.440 and then I stumbled across a hit that didn't appear 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:12.600 particularly relevant. At first blush something to do with anset buses, 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:16.480 not planes, But it was in the journal of the 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:21.799 Australian Timetable Association. It turns out that that's an organization 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:25.920 that describes itself as being for anyone interested in the 0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:32.480 study of transport timetables, schedules, maps and associated literature. So 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:36.759 I decided to email the secretary of that organization and 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:39.160 then lo and behold. In less than an hour I 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:43.239 heard back from the association and they'd found what I 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:43.720 was after. 0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:49.120 Yeah, that was great. I'd tried to get a timetable 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:54.080 through a website for airline pilots and contacted a collector 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:58.279 in North America and he had lots of timetables, but 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:03.439 not that one. There was another really diligent listener who 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:05.759 had offered to help, and she knows who she is. 0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:08.800 She wants to preserve her anonymity. Around the same time 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:12.040 as you were making those inquiries, she was also talking 0:36:12.080 --> 0:36:15.000 to the museum and she was hopeful and then she 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:19.960 also got a positive hit. Just shows how when we 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:24.560 all collaborate, just people from home doing these searches, you 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:28.239 know what's possible. What we can see from that is 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:32.040 that there were two flights from Sydney with Anseid Airlines 0:36:32.520 --> 0:36:38.200 on Sunday May sixteen, and the second of those flights 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:42.040 left Sydney shortly after six pm. 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:46.040 That's right, Headley. The timetable shows that a jet was 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:49.920 due to depart Sydney at six fifteen pm and arrive 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:53.880 in Ballina at seven twenty five pm on a Sunday. 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:59.080 And we're not aware of any other operator flying aircraft 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.920 from Sydney to Ballaner at that time. 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:06.000 No, not at this stage. And it's actually a query 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:10.799 that I did put to the Australian Timetable Association and 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:14.920 they indicated that they checked the Quantus timetable from the 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:18.840 time and had found that Ballaner wasn't a part of 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:23.400 the Quantus network and that they didn't think that smaller 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:27.680 airlines like East West or Hazleton had flown to Ballaner 0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:28.920 from Sydney either. 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:35.880 You've done work with Coronial inquiries over a number of years, haven't. 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:37.600 You, Yes, I have, Hedley. 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.719 Is it easy to see how this would fall through 0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:45.360 the cracks the actual time that a person of interest 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.520 traveled to the regional town. 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:53.880 I think it's probably dependent upon the nature of the 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:56.800 case and the police lines of inquiry. At the time, 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:02.720 it would be prudent for an investigator officer to seek 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:07.480 facts to support things like in our port arrival time. 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:10.480 If a suspect or someone who may very well become 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:14.720 a suspect is claiming that they arrived in a location 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:17.960 at a particular time, doing something like that at the 0:38:18.000 --> 0:38:21.520 time would be much easier than doing it many years later. 0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:27.080 We've done some on the ground checking of how long 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:31.040 it would take to travel from the airport. It's in 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:35.880 the fifty five to sixty minute range. And it's interesting 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:39.680 that in John's police interview he says that he was 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:43.240 in the ball and a police station for about fifteen minutes, 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:47.160 whereas we allowed for just five minutes when we did 0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:50.759 that exercise. It seems to us that it was physically 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:55.360 impossible for John to have made those telephone calls that 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.359 at times six fifty three pm and seven h six 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:04.320 pm on the night of Sunday, May sixteenth. Your finding 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:10.560 of that timetable now really helps to demonstrate that. Can 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:14.760 you think of any other explanation that would have permitted 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:18.320 John to have got back in time to make those calls? 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:23.600 I suppose the only explanations that seem open would be 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:29.719 either John catching the earlier Ancet flight that was due 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:32.200 to land in Ballino at about ten past three in 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:36.640 the afternoon, but that seems unlikely. As I understand he 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:39.560 says that he arrived in the dark, and I think 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:43.760 the sun probably set in Ballino at around about five pm. 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:46.799 And the only other explanation that I can think of 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.359 is that he traveled with a different airline carrier, and 0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:53.399 we haven't been able to identify such a carrier at 0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:54.400 this point in time. 0:39:55.320 --> 0:40:00.279 Yeah, I agree, the passenger manifest would be amazing have 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:03.279 Whether that's available after thirty one years, I don't know. 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:06.239 I think you'd probably need a warrant for that. It's 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.680 probably something only the police could get, I. 0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:12.880 Think so, and there'd be privacy considerations as well. Another 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:17.640 explanation that does occur to me that might allow John 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:19.719 to have made the phone calls would be if the 0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:25.719 n set timetable had changed for some reason, such that 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:30.640 he did arrive in the dark in Ballina in time 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:33.800 to get home and make the calls. But we don't 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:36.480 at the moment have any information suggesting that that was 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:39.440 the case. We can't really take that any further. 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:44.120 In terms of the timings that other people have talked about, 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:49.839 there really aren't that many. There's nothing written down to 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:55.120 our knowledge at the police station. But you've made the 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:58.279 point for to me that the duty books of the 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:03.960 officers could show when John came in to talk to 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:09.640 Sergeant Hart, who's now deceased, about whether John can approach 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:14.400 the home. Despite the conflict with Bromwin. 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:17.319 I think John to say himself that he saw a 0:41:17.360 --> 0:41:20.480 police officer write some things down whilst he was at 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:20.880 the station. 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:25.000 At one stage in his police interview he says that 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:27.759 it could have been around seven or eight pm that 0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:33.680 he got to the house. Unfortunately, Becky Maguire doesn't nominate 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:37.040 a time as to when she gets picked up. Have 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:40.640 you read in the police interview where John's asked about 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:41.360 phone calls? 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:44.560 Yes, I have read that part. 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:47.240 He originally says I didn't make any. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:52.040 That's right, and then he was more or less sort 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:55.400 of prompted about the phone calls and changed his story 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:57.480 and said, oh, that's right, I forgot I did make 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:01.359 those calls. Yeah, after the phone numbers were read out 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:05.400 to him and the persons that those numbers were allocated 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:06.520 to were confirmed. 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:12.680 Even if John hadn't driven Becky home, he still couldn't 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.720 have made those two phone calls. The evidence does show 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:19.920 that Bronwin knew John was coming back to Lennox Head 0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:24.680 on that Sunday evening. Karina suggested that John had phoned 0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:28.640 the house at Sandstone Crescent before he departed Sydney. 0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:32.759 What about the idea that he could have phoned from 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.160 the Sydney airport, like he said before the flight took off, 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:42.160 figured out that they were home, said that he was coming, 0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:47.000 and then that led to the panicked phone calls from Bronwan, 0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:51.080 potentially to Jody and his relatives. 0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:56.080 Yeah, that makes sense. We also have Mel Taylor, who 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:58.560 was twelve years old at the time, and she'd been 0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:02.920 playing with Lauren and Still on that Sunday afternoon. She 0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:06.759 says that when Bromwin returned from work at Eden's takeaway, 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:12.200 she said, oh, where are the girls? Can you tell 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:14.839 them they've got to come home. Their father's arriving, Their 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:19.360 father's coming. Here's how Mel described it in episode four. 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:24.000 I know I was at the park with Crystal and 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:30.480 Lauren that afternoon around five point thirty ish six ish. 0:43:31.080 --> 0:43:33.759 I came home before the girls came home. Bromin came 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:38.160 to that door and she's like, oh, hey, is Lauren 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:40.040 and Crystal here, and like, no, they're at the park, 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.680 and she said to me, can you go get them 0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:44.000 because her father's coming home. 0:43:44.520 --> 0:43:46.640 Is it a strong memory? Yeh, it's a strong memory. Yeah. 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:55.839 Speaking generally, what is the significance in lies that are 0:43:55.880 --> 0:44:00.920 told during a police investigation by a person of interest, Well. 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:05.200 It tends to suggest that their evidence is unreliable and 0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:11.400 can't necessarily be trusted, and that they might be looking 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:17.160 to deflect focus on them onto somebody else, probably because 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.200 there's a potential element of guilt there. 0:44:21.560 --> 0:44:24.760 I called Andy and Michelle Reid Broman's brother and sister 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:27.880 in law, and explain the flight time issue with the 0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:34.680 telephone calls. What time did you say the plane actually landed, Well, 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:37.560 we can't know for certain when it landed, but what 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:41.200 it was scheduled to do was land at about seven 0:44:41.200 --> 0:44:42.040 point thirty pm. 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:48.040 Planes don't take off ahead of schedule, no, unless they've 0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:50.600 got every passenger on board. But it still would not 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:54.040 be an hour because no. 0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:58.040 One, it seems when got a record of that aircraft 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:04.640 when it actually there's been this assumption that those phone 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.759 calls would have just been made by John, as he asserted, 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.759 and that everything around the flight was not that important 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:15.160 and it just fell between the cracks under the radar, 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:15.800 so to speak. 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:22.400 She was concerned, and she already rung mcdebitt to express 0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:25.720 concern that she'd found out he was on his way 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:26.520 up there. 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:31.000 Do you have a view about how Bromwin would have 0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:37.720 been responding and feeling when she knew that John's arrival 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:39.520 was imminent. He was in the air. 0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:44.880 Well the whole time in that lead up to her 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:50.239 going missing, The biggest worry was him trying to take 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:51.320 the kids. 0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:52.480 She'd have been. 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:55.760 Worried about him turning up for sure, for sure, Hence 0:45:56.400 --> 0:46:01.840 the reason she called Chris mcdebitt to get his advice advice. 0:46:02.560 --> 0:46:05.839 Another thing that's quite evident in the lead up to this, 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:09.040 as she was obviously speaking of David getting legal advice, 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:13.160 advised to go back to the home, advised by us 0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:16.279 to go back to the home, get yourself set in, 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:20.920 get away from all the financial stress. He knew exactly 0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:21.759 what was going on. 0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:27.480 He's flown for an hour from Sydney to Ballina and 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:31.279 then gone back into his own home. Is that the 0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:34.920 sort of thing that John would do. Bring someone and 0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:37.480 say I've got off the flight and I'm at home 0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:39.080 now and I've arrived sakand sound. 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:44.120 Look it doesn't sound like him to me. The Jody 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:46.480 one possibly makes sense. 0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:51.640 We need to know if Bromwin made them. What was 0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:57.080 conversed about to Jody and to Peter or was it 0:46:57.160 --> 0:46:58.960 Louise on the other end of the line. 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:02.000 We don't know. Could either at the second call. 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:08.680 Those two people Jodie's John's daughter and the Winfield is 0:47:09.160 --> 0:47:10.560 his brother and sister in law. 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:15.840 Why there and not her brother? I wonder what she 0:47:15.960 --> 0:47:16.360 was doing. 0:47:16.480 --> 0:47:20.320 Was she pleading with them to try and talk to John. 0:47:21.239 --> 0:47:24.880 Maybe it was in the hope that his brother and 0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:29.319 his daughter might be able to talk to him. 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:32.920 She didn't ring us. Was she trying to get some 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:34.720 help from his family. 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:39.719 Maybe she thought they might have had more clout with him. 0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:43.400 If she was worried about what he was doing, I 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:43.879 don't know. 0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:46.080 Well, I suppose she was worried. 0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:47.840 She knew he was going to try and take the 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:50.080 house back, because that was always being said. 0:47:50.719 --> 0:47:54.280 We need to find out We told that many different people, 0:47:54.960 --> 0:47:59.800 that many different stories. If you went through everyone's statement 0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:02.520 everyone's memory and all the rest of it. You wind 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:06.680 up with a one hundred points of facts that he's 0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:10.680 got wrong. I've started to do that. That's incredible. To 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:14.160 be honest. The more you go through this now with 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:18.640 such a fine truth can absolutely my numbing. You're a 0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:21.040 one man band, You've got your public help, and the 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:23.799 people have come forward out there in the real world. 0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:27.160 There's Maddie, there's us, there's all us reviewing it. 0:48:27.239 --> 0:48:33.600 And here they are a complete homicide unsolved unit and 0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:36.640 a statewide police force, and we just hear nothing. 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:43.840 We just here not one thing that they're moving forward with. 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:48.360 To be fair, they may be aware of this, you 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:52.719 don't you. The public help has been incredible, with the 0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:57.359 Facebook discussion group and people emailing me directly emailing Maddie. 0:48:57.680 --> 0:49:03.080 Karina Berger she found the timetable along with another woman 0:49:03.160 --> 0:49:11.200 who has requested an anonymity, and she's a gun investigator. Lazy. Now. 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:14.840 Early in this episode, you heard detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:19.400 questioning John Winfield. The second half of the nineteen ninety 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.279 eight interview began with a question which has been on 0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:23.080 the minds of. 0:49:23.080 --> 0:49:28.839 Many, was the conversation between you and browin quite on 0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:29.680 good terms. 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:33.640 Amicable, Yeah, because the kids were still up and they 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.600 the kids went to bed at about sort of eight 0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:38.120 point thirty. 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:43.399 Or suppose it's a leading question and John has embraced it. 0:49:44.120 --> 0:49:48.120 A characterization of peace and harmony between a divorcing couple 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:51.200 must be better than the alternative, particularly when the wife 0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:55.120 has been missing for five years. We can only speculate 0:49:55.200 --> 0:49:58.000 now whether the answer from John would have been different 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:00.319 if he had been taken to an entry in the 0:50:00.320 --> 0:50:04.560 Police Running Sheets from nineteen ninety three, the entry where 0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:07.960 Deb Hall reports to police what she says John had 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:12.480 told Deb that John and Bromlan had an altercation on 0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:16.840 the Sunday evening May sixteenth, when John arrived at the house. 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:23.480 The Dictionary definition for altercation is noisy disagreement. It's the 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:28.040 opposite of a conversation on good terms, a conversation that 0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:33.480 is purportedly amicable. If Deb was the only person who 0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:37.360 recalled John saying that he and Bromin had an altercation, 0:50:37.520 --> 0:50:40.040 it might be one of those he said, she said 0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:42.839 claims that makes sense but can't be given a huge 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:46.840 amount of weight. But Louise Winfield, the wife of John's 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:51.320 brother Peter Winfield, made a similar observation in her witness statement, 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:56.200 which is dated August fourteenth, nineteen ninety eight. That's just 0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:59.680 nine days after John was questioned by Glenn. 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:04.160 Taylor, I became aware that John did go to Lennox Head. 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.360 My memory of the following events are very vague, but 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:10.239 I recall John telling us that he and Bronwyn had 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.919 a fight and that Bronwyn had walked out. 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:18.360 There were many important recollections and observations which came out 0:51:18.400 --> 0:51:21.600 in the dozens of interviews Glenn did with witnesses during 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:25.160 his investigation, but he couldn't put any of those to 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:29.240 John because John gave the detective one shot at an interview. 0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:32.320 We're going to look at this in the next episode 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:35.640 because Glenn Taylor, who is always trying to help this 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:40.440 podcast investigation and the Reed family, has offered his perspective 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:44.520 as an insider on all of it. The situation at 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:48.600 Sandstone Crescent on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen ninety 0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:51.480 three was something akin to a powder keg with an 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:55.440 unlit fuse. In my view, I have wondered whether it 0:51:55.520 --> 0:51:59.319 was triggered by John realizing that Broman was determined to 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:03.560 proceed to divorce did John see in the house that 0:52:03.719 --> 0:52:06.840 night Bromlin's copy of a legal letter which her solicitor, 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.760 Chrismic Debitt, had sent to John in Sydney two days earlier, 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:14.200 a letter which John would not have received in Sydney 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:18.440 before he flew to Ballina on Sunday afternoon. But John 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:21.399 was going to get that letter anyway, and it would 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:24.480 have been logical for Bronwyn to tell John what her 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:28.920 instructions were, or to tell him what the legal letter conveyed. 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:32.720 It would have been normal for her to say something 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:36.040 like John, I don't want an argument, but as you're 0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:38.080 here now, you might as well read what's in the 0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:41.239 letter that was sent to you on Friday. This is 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:45.040 what Chrismic Debits legal letter to John stated in part. 0:52:46.600 --> 0:52:48.600 Bronwyin is hopeful that you will both be able to 0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:51.719 reach an agreement in relation to financial matters, and we 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:53.880 will be writing to you further with a proposal in 0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:57.560 this regard in the near future. We are instructed by 0:52:57.600 --> 0:52:59.960 Bronwyn that in her view, your marriage is out an 0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:03.200 and that there is no prospect of a reconciliation. In 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:06.680 the meantime, we require your immediate agreement for Bronwin to 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:09.400 retain the use and possession of the Ford motor vehicle 0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:11.960 depending finalization of your financial matters. 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:16.799 The last paragraph of the legal letter urged John to 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:20.520 get his own lawyer and to disclose his intentions around 0:53:20.560 --> 0:53:24.239 the Ford Falcon within the next seven days, and it 0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:27.280 warned John that Bromwin would go to court to get 0:53:27.320 --> 0:53:30.879 an interim order giving her possession of the car if 0:53:31.000 --> 0:53:56.840 John failed to respond. Now, let's go back to the 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:00.840 questioning of John by Glenn Taylor in that nineteen ninety 0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:04.680 eight interview in the Ballana police station. Can you tell 0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:06.120 us what was talked about? 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:10.400 I got no idea. I can't remember what we talked 0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:13.080 about at the moment. We may not even have had 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:17.000 too much discussion. I really can't remember, to tell you 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:21.359 the truth. She didn't ask me anything about Sydney. I 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:24.520 didn't really ask her anything about Lettox or probably about 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:27.560 the kids, you know, just probably about the kids. 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.800 These answers from John where he says they didn't really 0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:36.200 talk about anything, are hard to fathom. John is suggesting 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:39.399 two detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor that it was pretty much 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:43.080 like any other evening at the family home. Nothing out 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:46.839 of the ordinary, probably didn't discuss much about anything, but 0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:52.360 this was an extraordinary evening. Tensions must have been very high. 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.520 John had gone to the expense and trouble of having 0:54:55.560 --> 0:54:58.960 new locks installed at the family home. He did that 0:54:59.200 --> 0:55:02.759 to ensure that his estranged wife would not get into 0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:07.480 that home. But she had. Bronwyn had got herself a locksmith, 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:10.360 and she was living in the house. She had beaten 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:14.239 and discarded the physical barriers that John had organized, and 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:17.120 John could see that she now had possession of the house. 0:55:17.800 --> 0:55:21.040 Whatever John believed that possession meant in terms of a 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:26.080 legal right. Bromwyn had already told John's daughter Jody that 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:29.600 the property was Bromwin's too, and that John needed to 0:55:29.600 --> 0:55:34.279 be careful about approaching. Here's how Jody described it. You 0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:36.080 heard this in episode four. 0:55:37.960 --> 0:55:40.040 I can't recall how it happened, but I rang the 0:55:40.040 --> 0:55:43.400 house at Sandstone Crescent and Bronwin answered the telephone. She 0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:45.360 told me that she'd moved back into the house with 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:48.240 the kids and that she was staying there. She also 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:50.319 told me that Dad was not welcome there and that 0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:53.000 he can stay in Sydney with me. She told me 0:55:53.080 --> 0:55:54.960 that she was going to get a restraining order, so 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:57.919 that he couldn't come near the house. She also told 0:55:57.960 --> 0:55:59.839 me that the house belonged to her, and I really 0:55:59.840 --> 0:56:02.279 know that she changed from the person who wanted us 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:05.680 all to stay close. We both started to argue because 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:07.640 I told her that it was not her house and 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:11.600 that it belonged to Dad, Crystal, Lauren, and me as well. 0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:13.799 I also told her that it belonged to us, more 0:56:13.840 --> 0:56:16.279 so because she was the one that chose to leave. 0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:19.839 It developed into a very heated argument and we were 0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:21.680 yelling at each other, and she hung up on me. 0:56:23.640 --> 0:56:27.760 Jody told her father about her difficult Friday, May fourteen 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:31.800 conversation with Bromwan. Jody had tried to talk to Bromin 0:56:31.880 --> 0:56:34.840 again on the Saturday morning, but she couldn't reach her stepmother. 0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:39.600 Jody spoke instead to ten year old Crystal, and from 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:44.040 whatever the child said, Jody concluded that Bromwin was leaving 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:47.080 the two girls on their own in the house. This 0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:50.200 is how Jody described it in her nineteen ninety eight 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:51.080 police statement. 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:55.400 When I terminated the phone call and told Dad, he 0:56:55.440 --> 0:56:57.840 appeared to be very stressed out about it because they 0:56:57.880 --> 0:57:00.200 had never been left alone before and he was so 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:04.000 far away. I started ringing at four pm, and from memory, 0:57:04.080 --> 0:57:06.000 I think she answered and hung up when she heard 0:57:06.000 --> 0:57:08.360 my voice because she knew what was going to happen. 0:57:08.960 --> 0:57:11.040 I tried bringing her straight after, but she must have 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:13.080 left the phone off the hook again. It was off 0:57:13.120 --> 0:57:15.640 the hook all night. I told Dad and he made 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:19.200 arrangements to fly to Baliner the following day. I felt 0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:21.280 that I was out of the situation then when Dad 0:57:21.320 --> 0:57:23.400 was going back home to sort it out, so I 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:25.120 left it to him. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:29.160 And soon after, a man obsessive about the home he 0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:32.920 had built with his bare hands, who carefully watched every dollar, 0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:36.720 suddenly packed up his things in Sydney, stopped work on 0:57:36.760 --> 0:57:39.520 the building job he was doing in the Shire, and 0:57:39.640 --> 0:57:42.240 spent money he would have preferred to keep in his 0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:46.160 bank account on a costly fair to fly north to Ballina. 0:57:47.040 --> 0:57:50.560 But according to his interview with Detective Glenn Taylor. 0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:53.120 I can't remember what we talked about at the moment. 0:57:53.760 --> 0:57:56.120 We may not even have had too much discussion. 0:57:57.280 --> 0:58:00.640 Now, while Jodie's voice is fresh in your mind, let's 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:03.920 hear what she said in her police statement in nineteen 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:07.960 ninety eight about a phone call from Sandstone Crescent on Sunday, 0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:12.440 May sixteenth. This is that six point fifty three pm 0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:16.120 call which John told the detectives that he had made 0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:19.880 to his daughter. It's the call which we believe John 0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:23.840 could not have made because the flight timetables suggests he 0:58:23.960 --> 0:58:27.160 was still in the air on an Anset jet to bowner. 0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:31.320 Jodi referred to the call in the last paragraph of 0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:35.280 her twenty one paragraph statement, which was dated August twelve, 0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:39.400 nineteen ninety eight. That's a week after John was interviewed 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:40.880 by the detectives. 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:45.480 Today, Detective Tenby showed me an STD telephone record. I 0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:47.680 can recall that my father rang me at that time 0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:49.760 from the home at Lenox Head to tell me that 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.280 he'd arrived there safely. I don't recall much of the conversation, 0:58:53.680 --> 0:58:55.440 but I believe that Bromwin must have been in the 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:58.360 house at the time. I did not speak to Bronwin, 0:58:58.440 --> 0:59:01.240 and as I said before, the phone call was very short. 0:59:01.880 --> 0:59:03.720 My father told me that he would ring me later, 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:04.720 and that was about it. 0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:09.640 Jody confirmed in her statement that the telephone number which 0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:12.560 made the call was known to her as having come 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:16.720 from the home phone at Sandstone Crescent, and Jody confirmed 0:59:16.720 --> 0:59:19.240 that the number it called was Jody's number at the 0:59:19.280 --> 0:59:24.400 time in her flat in Sydney. John's brother Peter Winfield, 0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:28.720 in his statement to police in mid August nineteen ninety eight, 0:59:28.840 --> 0:59:32.280 was also shown the telephone bill and the reference to 0:59:32.320 --> 0:59:36.280 the telephone call being made to Louise and Peter Winfield's 0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:40.000 home at seven oh six pm on sixteen May nineteen 0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:44.400 ninety three. Peter Winfield told the detective Glen Taylor that 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:47.000 it would have been the call that John made to 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:51.200 Peter from Lennox Head. He said he didn't remember much 0:59:51.280 --> 0:59:54.320 about that phone call and that John made it in 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:58.040 the evening. The next thing he says he recalled was 0:59:58.160 --> 1:00:01.960 John and the children arriving in Sydney. Peter said that 1:00:02.000 --> 1:00:04.960 he had tried to remember, but he couldn't recall what 1:00:05.040 --> 1:00:09.400 John said about coming to Sydney with the children. In 1:00:09.440 --> 1:00:13.280 episode five, you heard what John had told police five 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:17.920 years earlier in nineteen ninety three. 1:00:17.360 --> 1:00:19.440 He stated that his wife met him at the door 1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:21.640 and they sat and talked for some time in the 1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:24.680 dining room. The children were then put to bed and 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:26.800 both he and his wife had an evening meal. 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:33.160 In this version, the one weeks after Bronwin's disappearance John 1:00:33.240 --> 1:00:36.640 and Bronwin had quite a bit to talk about. After 1:00:36.680 --> 1:00:39.080 the children went to bed, they had an evening meal 1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:44.760 together they talked for some time. Five years later, Crystal 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:47.520 described it this way in the statement that she made 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:50.640 two Detective Sergeant Taylor at Ballina Police Station. 1:00:52.320 --> 1:00:54.920 I remember being at home in the early evening when 1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:58.160 I received a telephone call, and from my recollection, it 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:01.160 was from my father. I don't remember what it was 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:03.720 that I spoke about, but it was not long after 1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:05.720 this that my father arrived at the house. 1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:07.320 I remember my. 1:01:07.320 --> 1:01:10.440 Mother saying something like, what are you doing here? My 1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:13.640 father says something about having caught a plane back to Bleana. 1:01:14.720 --> 1:01:17.080 I remember Dad coming into the kitchen and I was 1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:21.280 sitting watching television. My Dad and Mom started talking, but 1:01:21.400 --> 1:01:24.520 I don't know what was being said. The next thing 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:27.480 that I remember was Mum telling myself and my sister 1:01:27.560 --> 1:01:30.840 Lauren to clean our teeth and go to bed. After 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:33.080 I went to bed, I heard Mom and Dad arguing 1:01:33.080 --> 1:01:36.120 in the kitchen. I could hear Mom crying at the 1:01:36.160 --> 1:01:39.600 same time. I don't recall what was being said between 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:42.360 Mom and Dad, but I could tell that they were arguing. 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:46.000 I could hear them arguing until I must have fell asleep. 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:50.680 My next recollection that night was being woken by my father. 1:01:51.920 --> 1:01:54.000 Dad told me that he was taking Lauren a iight 1:01:54.040 --> 1:01:54.520 to Sydney. 1:01:56.120 --> 1:02:00.200 Let's go back to the nineteen ninety eight interview. Did 1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:03.560 you communicate to her that you were going to leave 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:05.960 that same night to go back to Sydney? 1:02:06.520 --> 1:02:08.360 No, no, no way, no. 1:02:09.200 --> 1:02:10.680 How did that all come about? 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:15.120 Well, I didn't say, but like it, I mean, all 1:02:15.200 --> 1:02:19.240 of a sudden after the phone calls that she apparently made, 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:22.720 you know, I heard a car pull up. I was 1:02:22.760 --> 1:02:25.040 sitting there at the dining room table, and she was 1:02:25.080 --> 1:02:29.160 in the bedroom and a car pulled up, and I 1:02:29.240 --> 1:02:32.240 mean she opened the front door and she was off. 1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:36.560 That was it. What time was that PNA About quarters 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:40.920 to midnight? I think eleven o'clock. I don't know, you know, 1:02:41.400 --> 1:02:46.360 it's probably down there somewhere. This is a mistake by 1:02:46.520 --> 1:02:50.360 John in terms of the timing. He had previously said 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:54.480 that Boman left about nine thirty pm. What were you 1:02:54.560 --> 1:02:57.960 doing at that point? I was still sitting at the table. 1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:00.800 I was still sitting at the table, and I stayed 1:03:00.800 --> 1:03:01.400 at the table. 1:03:02.080 --> 1:03:03.959 What time did the kids go to bed? 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:06.800 I think the kids were in bed by that time. 1:03:07.680 --> 1:03:12.600 I'm quite sure they were. I you know, I they 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:15.320 would have been in bed by that time, would have 1:03:15.360 --> 1:03:16.520 been in bed by that time. 1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:20.720 Well up until that point, hag, you communicated to Braunway 1:03:21.560 --> 1:03:24.160 what you intended to do, whether you stay in the 1:03:24.240 --> 1:03:25.720 family home or no. 1:03:25.720 --> 1:03:26.000 No. 1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:30.880 I just maybe there was, oh, I can't remember. Maybe 1:03:30.880 --> 1:03:34.360 there was a discussion about sleeping arrangements. I don't know. 1:03:34.520 --> 1:03:37.680 I might have said I'll sleep on the lounge. I 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:41.440 don't know what I said. I really can't remember, but 1:03:41.520 --> 1:03:43.080 that was it. You know, I had a couple of 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:47.240 cups of tea. I wasn't really sort of tired. I 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:50.960 wasn't in a sleeping sort of mood. And then like 1:03:51.000 --> 1:03:56.680 we heard a carpool up and she opened the front door, 1:03:56.960 --> 1:04:00.000 and she was off and she left. The front door 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:02.720 were open, and I heard the car go off up 1:04:02.800 --> 1:04:03.160 the hill. 1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:07.160 Glenn Taylor might have been holding or looking at some 1:04:07.240 --> 1:04:10.840 of the running sheets and other documents from Graham Diskin's 1:04:10.840 --> 1:04:15.800 investigation five years earlier. Referring to that time, Glenn said 1:04:15.840 --> 1:04:19.520 to John, you mention that you stayed at the dining 1:04:19.600 --> 1:04:24.240 room table for some time with Bromlin discussing family matters. 1:04:24.600 --> 1:04:29.160 Oh yeah, probably, I don't know. I can't remember, I mean, 1:04:29.560 --> 1:04:33.920 five years ago. I can't remember where we sat. You know, 1:04:35.120 --> 1:04:38.080 I know I was sitting at the table because I 1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:41.360 always have this one seat I always sit in, you know, 1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:44.880 it's just sort of where I used to always sit, 1:04:45.480 --> 1:04:45.680 you know. 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:51.400 Here, Glenn Taylor has highlighted John's nineteen ninety three claims 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:54.520 about having talked about family matters with Bromwin for some 1:04:54.760 --> 1:04:59.400 time that night. Perhaps four tactical reasons, the detective has 1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:02.600 not challenged John about why he claimed they didn't really 1:05:02.680 --> 1:05:06.840 talk about anything. But it begs the question, what is 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:10.320 the correct answer? John? Both answers can't be right. 1:05:11.800 --> 1:05:15.200 You mentioned this too, that there was some discussion between 1:05:15.240 --> 1:05:17.720 you and your wipe about her having a break from 1:05:17.760 --> 1:05:18.360 the children. 1:05:19.080 --> 1:05:22.680 Well, see she left a letter in the car too, 1:05:22.840 --> 1:05:25.880 I mean I go to pick her up. She left 1:05:25.880 --> 1:05:29.080 a letter in the back of the car, and in 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:31.680 that letter she said that she needed a break. 1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:37.479 And notice that John actually avoided answering the question here 1:05:38.200 --> 1:05:41.360 by raising the existence of a letter written by Bromwin. 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:45.480 John doesn't deal with whatever he claims Bromman had told 1:05:45.560 --> 1:05:47.760 him that night about wanting to have a bit of 1:05:47.760 --> 1:05:51.400 a break. It's a deflection, and perhaps it was just 1:05:51.480 --> 1:05:55.880 an accident. Part of the response from John, though, is baffling. 1:05:56.520 --> 1:05:58.919 It's hard to know what he was talking about when 1:05:58.960 --> 1:06:02.240 he said, I go to pick her up. She left 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:05.800 a letter in the back of the car. The known 1:06:05.960 --> 1:06:10.160 timeline has John having no physical contact with Bromwan for 1:06:10.240 --> 1:06:13.040 weeks until his return to the house in Lennox Head. 1:06:14.040 --> 1:06:17.240 He hadn't picked her up, as in driven somewhere to 1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:20.760 get her. Broman was in the house with the children 1:06:20.800 --> 1:06:23.560 when he turned up there on the Sunday night, and 1:06:23.640 --> 1:06:27.240 she left, according to him, in a mystery car driven 1:06:27.280 --> 1:06:31.400 by an unknown individual, before John left with the children 1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:36.200 to drive to Sydney overnight. We know about the letter 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:40.160 you heard excerpts from Broman's writing in earlier episodes. 1:06:41.800 --> 1:06:44.320 When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely. 1:06:45.280 --> 1:06:49.240 The house that was Bill became John's castle and my prison. 1:06:50.520 --> 1:06:54.440 Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. He had 1:06:54.440 --> 1:06:57.160 a heart of ice and always criticized me no matter 1:06:57.200 --> 1:07:01.400 what I did. The man was cold and heartless and 1:07:01.480 --> 1:07:07.240 gave nothing but expected everything. That'll be fine now, A 1:07:07.240 --> 1:07:09.360 little break for a few weeks and everyone will see 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:11.480 the old me look out. 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:16.360 John was vague about the contents of the letter when 1:07:16.400 --> 1:07:17.640 Glenn Taylor raised it. 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:21.320 I can't remember what was in the letter. It was 1:07:21.360 --> 1:07:24.200 a long letter. I mean, I know I gave it 1:07:24.200 --> 1:07:28.840 to Graham anyway. You know, I'd be lying if I 1:07:28.920 --> 1:07:31.760 told you I can remember what was said, because I 1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:35.919 can't remember what I said, you know. I mean, it's 1:07:35.960 --> 1:07:38.360 that long ago and I've put it out of my mind, 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:39.280 I really have. 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:44.240 You know, was it anything that you can retral about 1:07:44.560 --> 1:07:47.280 whether you and her to say that you were going 1:07:47.320 --> 1:07:49.040 to take the children down to Sydney? 1:07:49.800 --> 1:07:54.080 No, no, never, never. It's just that when she bolted 1:07:54.120 --> 1:07:56.680 out that door and drove up the street, you know, 1:07:56.880 --> 1:08:01.040 and left the car, well, you know, I thought, oh well, 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:03.360 I'll just take the kids to city with me. You know, 1:08:04.400 --> 1:08:07.720 I don't know. It's just a spontaneous thing. But I 1:08:07.800 --> 1:08:09.480 just did it, you know, So I did it. 1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:13.000 Were you not concerned that she go to the police 1:08:13.040 --> 1:08:14.919 and say that you've taken the kids? 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:15.880 Yeah? 1:08:16.120 --> 1:08:19.240 But see, in the eyes of the family court, everyone's 1:08:19.240 --> 1:08:23.200 got a right to access until the court determines, you know. So, 1:08:23.280 --> 1:08:25.920 I mean I hadn't seen the kids for weeks, so 1:08:26.040 --> 1:08:29.240 I sort of decided to take them. I may have 1:08:29.320 --> 1:08:33.760 discussed it with her. I can't honestly remember, I'll tell 1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:37.960 you the truth. I can't remember whether I said, listen, 1:08:38.920 --> 1:08:41.800 how about leaving the kids with me, because like it's 1:08:41.840 --> 1:08:44.719 five years I really don't think about it that much. 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:48.080 You know, it wasn't school holidays at that time, was it? 1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:52.040 You can check that. I can't remember, but it may have. 1:08:52.760 --> 1:08:54.880 I don't know. It was in May, so I don't know. 1:08:56.040 --> 1:08:58.920 In fact, it was not school holidays at the time. 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:04.040 Children were meant to be at school on Monday, May seventeenth. 1:09:04.880 --> 1:09:07.719 It's still a mystery why John took off so suddenly, 1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:11.360 particularly as he said that he had brought his surfboard 1:09:11.479 --> 1:09:14.920 and his gear back to Banana on the aircraft, and 1:09:15.040 --> 1:09:17.920 his story was that Bromin had announced to him that 1:09:18.160 --> 1:09:20.400 night that she was going away for a few days. 1:09:21.400 --> 1:09:23.840 On his version, he would have had the house and 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:27.599 the children to himself. He didn't need to drive anywhere. 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:31.880 This car that you heard pull up, it just pulled 1:09:31.960 --> 1:09:33.840 up out the street, out the front. 1:09:33.880 --> 1:09:38.040 Did you say, yeah, I was thinking about the school holidays. 1:09:38.479 --> 1:09:40.679 It could have been school holidays. I don't know. 1:09:41.520 --> 1:09:44.719 What did it sound like? Did it sound just a car? 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:48.240 You know, I mean, if you're trying, was it a 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:51.320 four cylinder or a V eight? I don't know, see 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:51.599 what I. 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:52.759 Mean, you're not sure? 1:09:53.080 --> 1:09:53.559 No? 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:56.519 No, how do you know that it stopped at the 1:09:56.520 --> 1:09:59.120 front of your place because I heard it? You know 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:02.280 what the engine I was stopped there with the engine ray. 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:07.280 The engine running. Yeah, and you didn't go to investigate. No, No, 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:11.719 at next stage you thought, I mean, once she'd gone 1:10:11.760 --> 1:10:14.080 and the car gone up the hill, I walked up 1:10:14.120 --> 1:10:16.720 and she was gone. The car was gone. So I 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:18.800 just shut the front door and the front door was 1:10:18.840 --> 1:10:21.559 still open. The front door was still open. Yeah. 1:10:22.000 --> 1:10:24.839 Do you go and check whether she'd taken anything close 1:10:25.080 --> 1:10:25.920 or I didn't? 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:30.040 No, I don't think I did. I mean I think 1:10:30.120 --> 1:10:32.960 I noticed her handbag was gone or something like that. 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:36.559 So there was no communication with to her that she 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:38.280 was even leaving in the house. 1:10:39.040 --> 1:10:42.960 No. No, she didn't say I'm going or anything like that. 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:46.120 No, So these phone calls happened. I'm not long after 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:48.920 the phone call was car pulls up? 1:10:49.080 --> 1:10:52.720 Yeah, Like I said to Graham at the time, well, 1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:55.880 maybe one of these phone calls that she made might 1:10:55.920 --> 1:10:58.040 have been to a bloke to come and pick her up, 1:10:58.200 --> 1:11:01.280 you know, or a friend. So like Graham has suggested 1:11:01.360 --> 1:11:04.920 to me, maybe that was her boyfriend, just come round 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:07.880 a pay or a visit. I don't know that was 1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:08.960 his suggestion, you know. 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:27.479 Bronwin is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:32.280 a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:36.280 which may help solve this cold case, please contact me 1:11:36.479 --> 1:11:42.799 confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.439 You can read more about this case and see a 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:51.719 range of photographs and other artwork at the website bronwynpodcast 1:11:52.000 --> 1:11:57.240 dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first. 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:02.360 The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, 1:12:02.520 --> 1:12:08.439 Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, 1:12:08.760 --> 1:12:14.360 Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:18.280 production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and 1:12:18.640 --> 1:12:23.000 original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:27.040 by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can 1:12:27.080 --> 1:12:29.880 only do this kind of journalism with the support of 1:12:29.920 --> 1:12:34.680 our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman for 1:12:34.800 --> 1:12:39.560 all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents 1:12:39.560 --> 1:12:43.479 about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, 1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:48.280 The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:52.240 and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com 1:12:52.360 --> 1:13:02.639 dot au and subscribe