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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. You heard

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Speaker 1: John Winfield's voice actor say in the previous episode.

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Speaker 2: I mean she wasn't hostile or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: John was responding to a question from Detective Sergeant Glenn

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Speaker 1: Taylor about Bromwin's attitude towards John when he turned up

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Speaker 1: at Sandstone Crescent. That's set out on page thirty six

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Speaker 1: of the official interview transcript from that morning in early

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Speaker 1: August nineteen ninety eight, as John sat in the police

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Speaker 1: station in Ballina with detectives Taylor and Wayne Temby asking questions.

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Speaker 1: There are forty pages of transcript from that interview left

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Speaker 1: to analyze. Some of the most important references are coming

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Speaker 1: up now. Back in episode five of the Bromwin podcast series,

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Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh and I talked about the importance of timelines.

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Speaker 1: Timelines are so important, definitely in cases like this. They

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Speaker 1: help us understand what's going on. YEA, who said, what when,

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Speaker 1: what happened? As you go through it, it'll become more

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Speaker 1: and more detail. I remember talking to us to a

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Speaker 1: great criminal lawyer, and he said, timelines win cases. But

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Speaker 1: until I had time to look more closely at the

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Speaker 1: transfer script of the police interview for the previous episode

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Speaker 1: and this one, neither Maddie nor I realized that there

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Speaker 1: was something very wrong in a particular part of John's story.

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Speaker 1: Let's start unpacking this. Here's John's next response on page

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Speaker 1: thirty six of the transcript. Remember he's describing being at

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Speaker 1: the house in Sandstone Crescent on Sunday night.

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Speaker 2: And then that was when sometime I'm trying to think

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Speaker 2: that was probably it was after seven o'clock. It might

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Speaker 2: have been even after eight o'clock by that time. I

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Speaker 2: can't remember, honestly. All I know is it was dark.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was probably at least an hour or

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Speaker 2: maybe an hour and a half after the plane landed,

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Speaker 2: whatever time that was. And that was dark, because I

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Speaker 2: remember I got off the plane in the dark.

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Speaker 3: It was two phone calls, mate, Yeah, apparently one at

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Speaker 3: six fifty three pm and one at seven oh six.

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Speaker 1: Pm, six fifty three seven. Yeah. Do you know did

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Speaker 1: you make any phone Cooks?

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't make Apparently she made a couple of

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Speaker 2: calls to Graham told me she had a solicitor, Yes,

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Speaker 2: another solicitor she had in Lismore, the guy that used

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Speaker 2: to be on the radio all the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: legal advice on a Thursday.

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Speaker 1: John is referring here to Chris mcdebitt. Christopher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's him. Yeah, yeah, she had him actually, and

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Speaker 2: she had his home phone number. And this is what

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Speaker 2: Graham said, apparently because Graham looked on her telephone accounts

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Speaker 2: afterwards and he told me the phone calls were made

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Speaker 2: to his place, his house.

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Speaker 3: Detective Tempi, can you just assist in relation to the identity.

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Speaker 1: Of those chief phone numbers? First one was I think

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Speaker 1: that's Jody's Is it? Five? Two one, three to one?

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Speaker 1: Wayne Temby read out a seven digit telephone number, which

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Speaker 1: we will not repeat in full in the episode. John

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Speaker 1: Winfield replied to the detective Senior Constable's question like this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting that in his first response to Glen

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Speaker 1: Taylor's question, John says that he did not make any calls,

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Speaker 1: but then Glen Taylor asked Detective Temb during the interview

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Speaker 1: with John to help in relation to the two calls

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Speaker 1: in question, as these two calls were long distance or

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Speaker 1: STD the abbreviation for subscriber trunk dialing. They were noted

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Speaker 1: in detail on the paper telephone bill for Sandstone Crescent

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Speaker 1: for the month of May nineteen ninety three. The time

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Speaker 1: the phone calls were made, the duration of the calls,

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Speaker 1: and the numbers dialed are printed on that telephone bill,

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Speaker 1: which the detectives had in the interview room when they

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Speaker 1: were questioning John. This itemized telephone bill and copies of

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Speaker 1: it are still in existence. We've got a copy of

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Speaker 1: it in our files on the case.

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Speaker 2: Oh I see, yeah, I rang that one, yeah, to

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Speaker 2: tell Jody I was at home. Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I remember that's six fifty three. Okay, that's seven o'clock. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that was Jody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I rang Jody and said, okay, I'm back home now,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I sort of come up now. I

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Speaker 2: remember that's Jody and my brother the one at seven

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Speaker 2: oh six. Yes, my brother, yep, I rang my brother too. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's my brother's number. Yeah, I forgot about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there was no no SHD calls, which Bromwin

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Speaker 3: may Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that's Jadie and my brother. Well, I

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Speaker 2: rang them to say I'd arrived home safely, you know. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I forgot about that.

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Speaker 3: Your brother's name's Peter, is it, Yeah, Peter Winfield.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Is Peter still living in Sydney?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anger Den.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you've made they've TIFA calls and then you're

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Speaker 3: still sitting around the dining room with the children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I can't remember what was bronwin doing.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 2: I made the phone calls from the telephone in the kitchen.

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Speaker 2: There's another telephone in the main bedroom, and she went

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Speaker 2: into the main bedroom and made these ones apparently too. Apparently,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I wasn't in the bedroom with her.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I didn't know, But all I know

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Speaker 2: is that she went in the bedroom and that it

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Speaker 2: was Graham. That was Graham told me that where the

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Speaker 2: phone calls were going. Because I was surprised when he

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Speaker 2: told me, because I didn't know you could trace local

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Speaker 2: phone calls and I had no idea you could do it.

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Speaker 2: And then he told me you could, and he did it.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: But there are some loocians and concerning discrepancies in all

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Speaker 1: of this, and they cry out for further investigation. They

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Speaker 1: could be really important in this case. For reasons that

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Speaker 1: will soon become obvious. These loose eians became obvious to

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Speaker 1: me while I was reading documents during the drafting of

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Speaker 1: this episode. As a result, I've been emailing and calling

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Speaker 1: former and current airline pilots, aviation regulators, even collectors of

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Speaker 1: old airline timetables. I have been helped enormously by some

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Speaker 1: very clever listeners who went into full private detective mode

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Speaker 1: to help me find the answers. We have been trying

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Speaker 1: to confirm the arrival time in Balliner on May sixteen,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three of the flight which John Winfield bordered

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Speaker 1: in Sydney earlier that day. It was a seventy to

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Speaker 1: eighty minute flight. The airline Anset Australia, which collapsed several

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Speaker 1: years later, flew the route for several days. I was

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Speaker 1: tantalizingly close because of the discovery of an ANSET timetable

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Speaker 1: for the months of September nineteen ninety two to March

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Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety three. That timetable sets out all the

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Speaker 1: ANSET flights and their departure times for the hop from

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Speaker 1: Sydney to Balliner. But I didn't have the May nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three timetable. We were close no cigar. Here's why

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Speaker 1: it might be crucial in this podcast series. You have

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Speaker 1: heard me say that John Winfield called his daughter Jody

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Speaker 1: and his brother Peter at six point fifty three pm

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Speaker 1: and seven h six pm respectively, from the house at

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Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent on May sixteen when he arrived at the house,

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Speaker 1: and it seemed uncontroversial. John Winfield confirmed this as you've

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Speaker 1: just heard in his interview with Glenn Taylor in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight. There just didn't appear to be anything unusual

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Speaker 1: about it. But while going through John's interview transcript, it

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Speaker 1: struck me that the timing appeared to make it very difficult,

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Speaker 1: if not impossible, for John to have made those calls.

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Speaker 1: Here's what his friend John Watson stated in his police

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Speaker 1: statement in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 5: John was wringing me from Sydney and he asked me

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Speaker 5: if I could pick him up from the Ballina Airport

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Speaker 5: and give him a lift home. That night, about six

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Speaker 5: thirty pm, I went to the airport and I met John.

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Speaker 5: He asked me if I could take him to the

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Speaker 5: Ballener Police station prior.

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Speaker 1: To taking him home.

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Speaker 5: I drove him to the police station, and I waited

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Speaker 5: in the car while he went in. He was in

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Speaker 5: the police station for about five minutes.

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Speaker 1: We do not know the time at which John Watson

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Speaker 1: drove away from Balliner Airport with John Winfield, but if

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Speaker 1: the pickup went smoothly despite all of John's gear and

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Speaker 1: his surfboard, and if the flight landed around six twenty

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Speaker 1: five pm, let's say they got away at six forty pm.

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Speaker 1: It takes a good ten minutes or so to get

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Speaker 1: from the airport to Balloner Police station, but let's say

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Speaker 1: they do it very quickly, in just seven minutes. Glenn

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Speaker 1: Taylor was told by John Winfield that he was in

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Speaker 1: the police station for about fifteen minutes. John Watson, in

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Speaker 1: his police statement estimated that he was waiting in his

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Speaker 1: car outside the police station for about five minutes. Let's

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Speaker 1: be generous and go with the five minute estimate. That

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Speaker 1: means it would have been after six point fifty pm

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Speaker 1: when John Winfield is the passenger in John Watson's car

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Speaker 1: driving away from Barner Police Station to pick up Becky

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Speaker 1: McGuire from her home in Lenox Head. John Watson said

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Speaker 1: they drove to either Gibbons Street or Stuart Street in

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Speaker 1: lenox Head to collect Becky. It doesn't make much difference

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Speaker 1: because both of those streets, just a few blocks northwest

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Speaker 1: of the retail strip in Lenox Head are about the

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Speaker 1: same distance from Barner Police Station. I've done the trip

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Speaker 1: many times now. It's a good fifteen minutes. The two

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Speaker 1: men and the young woman say they then drove to

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Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent together and that's going to take seven minutes minimum.

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Speaker 1: The upshot is this, if the Ansett Australia jet landed

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Speaker 1: just before six thirty pm, and John then wore off

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Speaker 1: and very quickly collected his luggage and surfboard, then went

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Speaker 1: directly to the police station and then to lennox Head

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Speaker 1: to get Becky. The earliest that they could have arrived

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Speaker 1: at his house in Sandstone Crescent would have been about

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Speaker 1: seven point fifteen pm, the house which bronwin had moved

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Speaker 1: back into with the two girls on the Friday night

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Speaker 1: after asking a locksmith to come out to remove the

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Speaker 1: locks which John had put on to try to prevent

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Speaker 1: his estranged wife from getting back inside the house. But

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Speaker 1: that's not all, because the evidence of Becky is that

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Speaker 1: John Winfield then drove her in the family Ford Falcon

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Speaker 1: back to Becky's home in Lennox Head John Watson had left.

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Speaker 6: John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front

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Speaker 6: of the house and John knocked on the door. The

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Speaker 6: door opened and Bronwin and the children were standing at

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Speaker 6: the door. I wasn't really paying much attention at the time,

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Speaker 6: but I recall Bronwyn babbling on about something, but they

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Speaker 6: weren't arguing. Bronwin walked back into the house towards the kitchen,

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Speaker 6: and John gave the girls a cuddle, and I saw

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Speaker 6: that Lauren was crying. I saw two suitcases inside the doorway,

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Speaker 6: and John picked them up and put them in the car.

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Speaker 6: John must have had a set of keys to the car,

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Speaker 6: because we then got into the car and he drove

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Speaker 6: me home. I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing

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Speaker 6: at the window inside the house, watching as we reversed

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Speaker 6: out of the driveway. John didn't go inside the house

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Speaker 6: at all while I was in the house with him.

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Speaker 6: While we were driving back to my house, John thanked

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Speaker 6: me for coming with him and told me he was

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Speaker 6: sorry for getting me involved. I haven't seen Bronwin since

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Speaker 6: that night I went to her place with John.

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Speaker 1: John Winfield then must have returned on his own to

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Speaker 1: go to the home in Sandstone Crescent. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be about seven thirty pm before he gets there, and

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Speaker 1: that's if the plane landed at about six thirty pm.

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Speaker 7: My name is Karina Berger.

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Speaker 1: Three months before the release of this episode, a listener

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Speaker 1: emailed we were in Ireland on leave at the time.

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Speaker 7: I'm contacting you to offer my assistance with legal research, analysis, etc.

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Speaker 7: For Bronwan or any other podcasts you might have in

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Speaker 7: the pipeline. I love true crime and working to solve

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Speaker 7: a problem or mystery. I also find undertaking work that

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Speaker 7: is in the public interest very rewarding. Some of my

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Speaker 7: particular strengths are my attention to detail, communication and organization

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Speaker 7: and project management SKI and my ability to recall information

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Speaker 7: and facts. If you ever require another pair of hands

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Speaker 7: and think my skill set might be beneficial, I would

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Speaker 7: be very happy to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Karina is an experienced lawyer with a particular interest in

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Speaker 1: coronial inquest work, and she has worked on many coronial

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Speaker 1: investigations and inquests over the years. She was following the

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Speaker 1: Bromwin podcast very closely. We started exchanging emails around the

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Speaker 1: same time offers of help from other women with proven

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Speaker 1: experience in investigations in the criminal justice system were coming in.

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Speaker 1: Some have preferred anonymity. They're all amazing and very generous

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Speaker 1: with their time. Three days after I first became suspicious

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Speaker 1: about those calls from the house, I raised it with

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Speaker 1: Karna over a Greek salad in Brisbane. The timing was good.

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Speaker 1: She was visiting from interstate with her husband for his work.

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Speaker 1: Karina flew home late that afternoon and she resolved to

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Speaker 1: start looking for a thirty one year old timetable which

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Speaker 1: might show when a long defunct airline used to fly

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Speaker 1: to the airport of a regional town in New South

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Speaker 1: Wales on Sundays in May nineteen ninety three. My other

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Speaker 1: contacts from the podcast listenership were also on the job

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Speaker 1: trying to locate this key information. In northern New South Wales,

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Speaker 1: my friend and colleague Matt Condon called. We spoke about

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Speaker 1: the driving that he would do while retracing where John

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Speaker 1: would have gone thirty one years ago. After the anset

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Speaker 1: jet landed. Then Matt rang off, turned on his voice

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Speaker 1: recorder and got ready to roll.

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Speaker 5: This is the side of obviously the old Byron Ballina

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Speaker 5: Regional airport. I remember getting.

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Speaker 8: Flights to and from Sydney into here.

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Speaker 5: It hasn't changed that much that we're here now to

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Speaker 5: follow John Winfield's timeline and we'll.

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Speaker 8: Just see how the templates marry up.

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Speaker 5: Okay, just leaving the airport and out, traffic conditions are

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Speaker 5: pretty light. Simple direct route from the airport down to

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Speaker 5: the police station, past the Ballona Bayside and Ballon Affair

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Speaker 5: shopping centers, straight down to River Street and hang a left.

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Speaker 1: We're at over.

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Speaker 5: Five minutes at the moment, so I've arrived at the

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Speaker 5: Ballina Police station on River Street at twelve minutes and

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Speaker 5: eleven seconds. Winfield claims that he was brought here by

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Speaker 5: mister Watson and went into the station to check if

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Speaker 5: there were any legal restraints against him as in Bronwyn,

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Speaker 5: placing possibly domestic violence restrictions on his proximity to her. Okay,

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Speaker 5: that's exactly five minutes. I'm now leaving the police station

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Speaker 5: and heading towards the Ocean Road, which will head up

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Speaker 5: to Lenox.

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Speaker 1: Seventeen minutes eleven seconds.

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Speaker 5: There's a sort of little backway here to get onto

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Speaker 5: that which the locals would know, and it would be

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Speaker 5: a logical way through Ballinatown to get onto that coastal road.

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Speaker 1: I'm just coming through the main drag of Lenox.

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Speaker 5: There was a little bit of traffic, not a lot,

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Speaker 5: but it might have accounted for twenty or thirty seconds

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Speaker 5: over and above a clean run through that street. I've

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Speaker 5: just arrived where he picks up Jody's friend. We'll wait

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Speaker 5: for ninety seconds. It's thirty four minutes and fifteen seconds.

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Speaker 5: Just arrived outside the house at Sandstone Crescent. It was

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Speaker 5: forty one minutes and thirty nine seconds.

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Speaker 2: I'll wait now.

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Speaker 5: For another ninety seconds before we head back to drop

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Speaker 5: the young woman off and then come back to Sandstone. Right,

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Speaker 5: we're back at Gibbon forty nine minutes and one second.

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Speaker 5: We'll wait for fifteen seconds to Sandstone for the final leg. Okay,

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Speaker 5: just pulled up back at Sandstone Crescent in front of

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Speaker 5: the house. That journey from the airport took precisely fifty

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Speaker 5: six minutes and thirty five seconds.

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Speaker 1: Hey Matt, how'd you go?

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Speaker 5: I went from Ballino Airport, did all the stops, and

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Speaker 5: finally I've returned here back at Sandstone Crescent and giving

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Speaker 5: Winfield sort of two minutes at the end of the

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Speaker 5: journey to meet and greet his kids, etc. At the

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Speaker 5: door of the property which I'm parked out the front.

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Speaker 5: The final time came in at fifty eight minutes and

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Speaker 5: thirty five seconds, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's consistent with what John Winfield himself says in

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Speaker 1: the record of interview that he's done with Glenn Taylor

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight. So he says something like it

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Speaker 1: was about an hour to an hour and a half

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Speaker 1: after he'd arrived in Ballener that he got into the house.

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Speaker 1: So that makes sense exactly if we round it up

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Speaker 1: to one hour. He would have had to have arrived

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Speaker 1: in Ballaner and be getting into John Watson's car at

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Speaker 1: Banner Airport by five fifty pm on Sunday May sixteen

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Speaker 1: for him to have been able to make that first

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Speaker 1: phone call at six fifty three pm to his daughter

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Speaker 1: Jody on that same day.

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Speaker 8: What time did the plane land?

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Speaker 1: This is still the missing piece in this puzzle. We

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Speaker 1: know from John Watson's statement that John Watson says he

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Speaker 1: got to the airport at six thirty pm to collect

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Speaker 1: John Winfield. What we don't have for certain yet is

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Speaker 1: the arrival time of the aircraft from Sydney. We've got

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Speaker 1: a timetable that shows that in the months of October

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Speaker 1: to March, and said Australia had aircraft leaving at six

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Speaker 1: ten pm in Sydney and arriving into Ballana at seven

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Speaker 1: thirty But we don't yet have the timetable for the

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Speaker 1: months following the end of March, whether the timetable changed

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Speaker 1: for those subsequent months. You know Matt from previous episodes

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Speaker 1: in this series, as well as from his work in

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Speaker 1: other podcast investigations I've done into the murders of Australian women.

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Speaker 1: In a coincidental piece of voice acting symmetry. You know

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Speaker 1: Matt's voice from this episode too, because he read the

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Speaker 1: lines from the police statement of John Watson. Matt suggested

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Speaker 1: that the aircraft possibly landed in May nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 1: at around six thirty pm, not seven thirty pm. Matt

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Speaker 1: suggested that that might have happened because of daylight saving.

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Speaker 5: If you're a boat is in New South Wales in

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Speaker 5: the beginning of October of any given year, I think

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Speaker 5: since the early nineteen seventies, so you actually on a

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Speaker 5: Sunday you turn your clock forward one hour at the

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Speaker 5: beginning of daylight saving, so in essence you're losing an hour,

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Speaker 5: but by going forward it gives you an extra hour

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Speaker 5: or so of daylight at the end of the day,

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Speaker 5: which is the point of daylight saving, and that is

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Speaker 5: for people to be able to finish work and enjoy

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Speaker 5: the daylight in the summer months. Come April the following year,

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Speaker 5: six months later, daylight saving ends in New South Wales,

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Speaker 5: so you have to claw back that hour and it

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Speaker 5: goes back to normal Eastern Standard time. The flight, as

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Speaker 5: we know, was in May, so daylight saving was well

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Speaker 5: and truly over by at least six seven weeks by then,

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Speaker 5: so the clocks would have gone back an hour to

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Speaker 5: parity with the East Coast. So if a flight in March,

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Speaker 5: for example, landed in Ballina at seven point thirty pm

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Speaker 5: during daylight saving hours beyond April outside of daylight saving hours,

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Speaker 5: that flight would have landed at around six thirty pm,

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Speaker 5: so you claw back the hour. If he'd landed at

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Speaker 5: six thirty, it was picked up at six thirty pm

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Speaker 5: and then went to the bell on the police station,

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Speaker 5: so seven eleven pm is the first revisit to Sandstone

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Speaker 5: then to go back to be able to pick up Becky.

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Speaker 5: He would have arrived there at seven nineteen pm. Give

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Speaker 5: them ninety seconds for that, and then to swing back

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Speaker 5: to Sandstone, and to give him credit for a couple

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Speaker 5: of minutes of meeting and greeting at the door and

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Speaker 5: getting back into the house. He would have been in

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Speaker 5: Sandstone Crescent after all of that journey at around about

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Speaker 5: seven twenty eight pm.

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Speaker 1: Well, how does he make these telephone calls that he

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Speaker 1: said he made to Jody and to Peter at six

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Speaker 1: fifty three pm and then seven ozh six pm from

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Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent.

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Speaker 5: Well, he couldn't have, because going by these specific times,

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Speaker 5: he wasn't in the house to make the calls.

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Speaker 1: Let's go with a hypothetical, allow for perhaps a mistaken memory.

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Speaker 1: They didn't get Becky, or he decided to go to

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Speaker 1: the house at Sandstone Crescent ahead of getting Becky, something

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Speaker 1: like that. It seems from those time stamps, Matt, that

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Speaker 1: he still can't make it in time to make a

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Speaker 1: call at six fifty three pm, twenty three minutes after

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Speaker 1: the John Watson six thirty pm pick up at Balner Airport. No,

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Speaker 1: there's no way you know these roads, Matt. You've driven

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Speaker 1: them a lot before the Bromwin podcast, and more so

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Speaker 1: since we've been working on it together. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being able to drive from the Ballina Police station to

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's old house in Sandstone Crescent, Lenox Head in six

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Speaker 1: to seven minutes. It's impossible.

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Speaker 5: I've done the journey from Ballina Town Center along the

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Speaker 5: Coast Road for innumerable reasons, kids soccer, shopping at Woolies

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Speaker 5: at the back of Lennox invariably in the back of

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Speaker 5: your head. You know, it takes on average at least

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Speaker 5: fifteen minutes. There's no way around that. I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: even with a clear run. That's just the time it takes.

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Speaker 5: It's as simple as that.

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Speaker 1: I don't want us to count o chickens before they've hatched.

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Speaker 1: But this is a really big loose end because John

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Speaker 1: was adamant in his police interview that he made those

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Speaker 1: telephone calls. He was initially saying he didn't make any calls,

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Speaker 1: and then when propped it, he goes, oh, yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: I remember now I did make those calls.

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Speaker 5: Neither of them correspond on the timeline to Jonathan Winfield

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Speaker 5: being in the house and physically able to make those calls.

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Speaker 1: If he didn't make those phone calls because he couldn't

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Speaker 1: have been in the house. Then I'm suggesting the only

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Speaker 1: person who could have made those calls was Bromwin, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's consistent with Bromwin having telephoned her solicitor,

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdebott in the late afternoon because of her concern

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Speaker 1: about John's imminent return. John says that he made those

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Speaker 1: calls basically to tell his daughter and his brother that

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Speaker 1: he had arrived safely and was in the house.

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Speaker 5: I'm just thinking of myself and my own family, saying

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Speaker 5: I flew from Sydney to Ballina, which is a relatively

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Speaker 5: short flight within the same state. I fail to see

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Speaker 5: why there would be any reason or urgency to ring

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Speaker 5: not one family member but two to alert them that

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Speaker 5: they had arrived safely an hour and twenty minute flight maximum.

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure what sort of peril could one could

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Speaker 5: encounter in a humble domestic flight from Sydney de Ballena.

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Speaker 5: If you're flying into Delhi, or if you're flying into

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Speaker 5: Barcelona or London and you'd had a long haul, I

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00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 5: would totally understand that, but I simply cannot comprehend why

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Speaker 5: someone would have to alert close family members to their

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Speaker 5: safety after a very short domestic flight.

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Speaker 1: It makes no sense.

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Speaker 5: It's just simply illogical and something most certainly that I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't do, and I think most people wouldn't do.

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Speaker 1: My supposition on.

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Speaker 5: Your theory is that I think you've nailed it, even

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Speaker 5: if the timeline's out by a few minutes either side.

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Speaker 8: I reckon she's made those.

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Speaker 1: Calls six point fifty three pm. Is the first one.

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Speaker 8: Six fifty three pm?

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Speaker 9: Yes?

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Speaker 8: And when's the next one?

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Speaker 1: Seven six pm?

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Speaker 5: Something has prompted her to make the first call and

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Speaker 5: then another call twelve thirty minutes later.

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Speaker 1: If this theory is right, she brings Jody because it

431
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: was to Jody that she had her earlier conversation in

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Speaker 1: which she said, your dad had better not approach me,

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Speaker 1: or worse to that effect. If Jody and Peter have

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Speaker 1: no way of contacting John, what's the utility of Bromin

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Speaker 1: contacting them when John's on the way.

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00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 5: Well, she's tried the solicitor, right, Yeah, and somehow she's

437
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 5: learned he's on the way, made the call at six

438
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: point fifty three in a panic.

439
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 8: It's impossible he can't have made those calls. It's impossible.

440
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: And the only other explanation is that John Watson's claim

441
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: that he arrived to pick up John at six thirty

442
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: pm is wrong, and that in fact it was five

443
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: thirty pm.

444
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 5: If it was five thirty, then that may work in

445
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 5: terms of him being in the house.

446
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: He gets to the house then by six thirty bit

447
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: of meeting and greeting and he has a cup of

448
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: tea and then he makes those calls. But that's the

449
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: only way.

450
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 8: That's the only way. Yes, where did you come up

451
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 8: with the five thirty time?

452
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: I've just plucked it out of the air, taken two

453
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: hours off the arrival time of seven thirty. Yeah, he

454
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: says it was dark when he landed. Now, sunset at

455
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: that time was after five shortly after five pm. Yes,

456
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: it would have had to have left Sydney at fourteen pm,

457
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 1: two hours earlier than the schedule. In the month of

458
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: March yeap. What would be John's potential motive to claim

459
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: that he made those two phone calls if in fact

460
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: Broman had made them.

461
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 5: We know she's on alert because she's phoned her solicitor,

462
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 5: so she's in that heightened state. If she's phoned Jody

463
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 5: and Peter Winfield. One can only imagine logically it would

464
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 5: be out of concern for her safety.

465
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't want the police to know.

466
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 5: Now, with the benefit of hindsight, would John Winfield have

467
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 5: worried about two things? Firstly, he's worried that there are

468
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 5: two people in the world, Jody and Peter, who know

469
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 5: that she is fearful at that moment. And secondly, his

470
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 5: consideration would be to keep them out.

471
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: Of the narrative.

472
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 5: So is this woman who's already been warned that John's

473
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 5: not going to like it that she's back at the house.

474
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 5: She's worked up enough to ring the solicitor and seek advice.

475
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 5: She anticipating his arrival and not knowing whether he might

476
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 5: be in a mood or how he might react, it

477
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 5: would be very logical for her to reach out to

478
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 5: two of the closest people to him to try and

479
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 5: work out what do I do. I'm in trouble here, Yeah,

480
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 5: that makes sense. I'll just ride out the timestamp timeline

481
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 5: for you.

482
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Matt, and I'll keep trying to

483
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: find the timing of that flight. Some listeners may not

484
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: have heard of the once massive answered Australia Airline and

485
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: its founder, Sir reginald Anset. Here's a promotional clip from

486
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties.

487
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 9: It's no wonder the Answered group of Airlines flies the

488
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 9: largest domestic fleet in Australasia. Our constant aim is to

489
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 9: provide you with excellence in products and service.

490
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: When this much loved airline folded in two thousand and one,

491
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: it was Australia's largest corporate collapse, with more than sixteen

492
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: thousand jobs lost. Back in Canberra, two days after I

493
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: had first met her, Karina Berger had a breakthrough. Karina.

494
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: When I met you at lunch in Brisbane and told

495
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: you how I was looking for timetables for Anset in

496
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three and they were proving really elusive. You

497
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: probably didn't expect that you'd be on the chase for

498
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: them within a day or so.

499
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 7: I love a challenge, heed Ley, so I was happy

500
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 7: to help.

501
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: How did you find it?

502
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 7: I started off with a basic Google search. It made

503
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 7: me realize that timetables for planes and other modes of

504
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 7: transport are actually really collectible items, and there's quite a

505
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 7: lot of private collectors who tend to catalog them and

506
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 7: post blogs about them and take pictures of their covers

507
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 7: and things like that and pop them online. And that

508
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 7: was really helpful because I could have a look at

509
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 7: what people had put up on the Internet, and I

510
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 7: realized that there were a couple of timetables from Anset

511
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 7: that existed in nineteen ninety three. The problem was, though,

512
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 7: that these people only had pictures of the covers, and

513
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 7: they didn't seem to have photographs of the actual timetables

514
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 7: themselves or PDF copies. I reached out to Air Services

515
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 7: Australia in the hope that they might have actual flight

516
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 7: records for the Ballina Airport on the sixteenth of May

517
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety three, and I contacted the National Library of

518
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 7: Australia and did some searches of their online catalog. So

519
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 7: I then turned to the National Archives of Australia catalog

520
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 7: and the New South Wales State Archives catalogs and had

521
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 7: to look there, But those searches also weren't very fruitful,

522
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 7: and so then I just went back to Google and

523
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 7: started to work my way through all of the hits,

524
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 7: and I came across the Sir reginald Anset Transport Museum,

525
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 7: and then I stumbled across a hit that didn't appear

526
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 7: particularly relevant. At first blush something to do with anset buses,

527
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 7: not planes, But it was in the journal of the

528
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 7: Australian Timetable Association. It turns out that that's an organization

529
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 7: that describes itself as being for anyone interested in the

530
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 7: study of transport timetables, schedules, maps and associated literature. So

531
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 7: I decided to email the secretary of that organization and

532
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 7: then lo and behold. In less than an hour I

533
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 7: heard back from the association and they'd found what I

534
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 7: was after.

535
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was great. I'd tried to get a timetable

536
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: through a website for airline pilots and contacted a collector

537
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: in North America and he had lots of timetables, but

538
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 1: not that one. There was another really diligent listener who

539
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: had offered to help, and she knows who she is.

540
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: She wants to preserve her anonymity. Around the same time

541
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: as you were making those inquiries, she was also talking

542
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: to the museum and she was hopeful and then she

543
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: also got a positive hit. Just shows how when we

544
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: all collaborate, just people from home doing these searches, you

545
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: know what's possible. What we can see from that is

546
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: that there were two flights from Sydney with Anseid Airlines

547
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: on Sunday May sixteen, and the second of those flights

548
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: left Sydney shortly after six pm.

549
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 7: That's right, Headley. The timetable shows that a jet was

550
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 7: due to depart Sydney at six fifteen pm and arrive

551
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 7: in Ballina at seven twenty five pm on a Sunday.

552
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: And we're not aware of any other operator flying aircraft

553
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: from Sydney to Ballaner at that time.

554
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 7: No, not at this stage. And it's actually a query

555
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 7: that I did put to the Australian Timetable Association and

556
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 7: they indicated that they checked the Quantus timetable from the

557
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 7: time and had found that Ballaner wasn't a part of

558
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 7: the Quantus network and that they didn't think that smaller

559
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 7: airlines like East West or Hazleton had flown to Ballaner

560
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 7: from Sydney either.

561
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: You've done work with Coronial inquiries over a number of years, haven't.

562
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 7: You, Yes, I have, Hedley.

563
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: Is it easy to see how this would fall through

564
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: the cracks the actual time that a person of interest

565
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: traveled to the regional town.

566
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 7: I think it's probably dependent upon the nature of the

567
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 7: case and the police lines of inquiry. At the time,

568
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 7: it would be prudent for an investigator officer to seek

569
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 7: facts to support things like in our port arrival time.

570
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 7: If a suspect or someone who may very well become

571
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 7: a suspect is claiming that they arrived in a location

572
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 7: at a particular time, doing something like that at the

573
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 7: time would be much easier than doing it many years later.

574
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: We've done some on the ground checking of how long

575
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: it would take to travel from the airport. It's in

576
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: the fifty five to sixty minute range. And it's interesting

577
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: that in John's police interview he says that he was

578
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: in the ball and a police station for about fifteen minutes,

579
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: whereas we allowed for just five minutes when we did

580
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: that exercise. It seems to us that it was physically

581
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: impossible for John to have made those telephone calls that

582
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: at times six fifty three pm and seven h six

583
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: pm on the night of Sunday, May sixteenth. Your finding

584
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: of that timetable now really helps to demonstrate that. Can

585
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 1: you think of any other explanation that would have permitted

586
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: John to have got back in time to make those calls?

587
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 7: I suppose the only explanations that seem open would be

588
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 7: either John catching the earlier Ancet flight that was due

589
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 7: to land in Ballino at about ten past three in

590
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 7: the afternoon, but that seems unlikely. As I understand he

591
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 7: says that he arrived in the dark, and I think

592
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 7: the sun probably set in Ballino at around about five pm.

593
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 7: And the only other explanation that I can think of

594
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 7: is that he traveled with a different airline carrier, and

595
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 7: we haven't been able to identify such a carrier at

596
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 7: this point in time.

597
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, the passenger manifest would be amazing have

598
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: Whether that's available after thirty one years, I don't know.

599
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: I think you'd probably need a warrant for that. It's

600
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: probably something only the police could get, I.

601
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 7: Think so, and there'd be privacy considerations as well. Another

602
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 7: explanation that does occur to me that might allow John

603
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 7: to have made the phone calls would be if the

604
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 7: n set timetable had changed for some reason, such that

605
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 7: he did arrive in the dark in Ballina in time

606
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 7: to get home and make the calls. But we don't

607
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 7: at the moment have any information suggesting that that was

608
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 7: the case. We can't really take that any further.

609
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: In terms of the timings that other people have talked about,

610
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: there really aren't that many. There's nothing written down to

611
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: our knowledge at the police station. But you've made the

612
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: point for to me that the duty books of the

613
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: officers could show when John came in to talk to

614
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: Sergeant Hart, who's now deceased, about whether John can approach

615
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: the home. Despite the conflict with Bromwin.

616
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 7: I think John to say himself that he saw a

617
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 7: police officer write some things down whilst he was at

618
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 7: the station.

619
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: At one stage in his police interview he says that

620
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: it could have been around seven or eight pm that

621
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: he got to the house. Unfortunately, Becky Maguire doesn't nominate

622
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: a time as to when she gets picked up. Have

623
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: you read in the police interview where John's asked about

624
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: phone calls?

625
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 7: Yes, I have read that part.

626
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: He originally says I didn't make any.

627
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 7: That's right, and then he was more or less sort

628
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 7: of prompted about the phone calls and changed his story

629
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 7: and said, oh, that's right, I forgot I did make

630
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 7: those calls. Yeah, after the phone numbers were read out

631
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 7: to him and the persons that those numbers were allocated

632
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 7: to were confirmed.

633
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: Even if John hadn't driven Becky home, he still couldn't

634
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: have made those two phone calls. The evidence does show

635
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: that Bronwin knew John was coming back to Lennox Head

636
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: on that Sunday evening. Karina suggested that John had phoned

637
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: the house at Sandstone Crescent before he departed Sydney.

638
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 7: What about the idea that he could have phoned from

639
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 7: the Sydney airport, like he said before the flight took off,

640
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 7: figured out that they were home, said that he was coming,

641
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 7: and then that led to the panicked phone calls from Bronwan,

642
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 7: potentially to Jody and his relatives.

643
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. We also have Mel Taylor, who

644
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: was twelve years old at the time, and she'd been

645
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: playing with Lauren and Still on that Sunday afternoon. She

646
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: says that when Bromwin returned from work at Eden's takeaway,

647
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: she said, oh, where are the girls? Can you tell

648
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: them they've got to come home. Their father's arriving, Their

649
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: father's coming. Here's how Mel described it in episode four.

650
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 10: I know I was at the park with Crystal and

651
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 10: Lauren that afternoon around five point thirty ish six ish.

652
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 10: I came home before the girls came home. Bromin came

653
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 10: to that door and she's like, oh, hey, is Lauren

654
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 10: and Crystal here, and like, no, they're at the park,

655
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 10: and she said to me, can you go get them

656
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 10: because her father's coming home.

657
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: Is it a strong memory? Yeh, it's a strong memory. Yeah.

658
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: Speaking generally, what is the significance in lies that are

659
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: told during a police investigation by a person of interest, Well.

660
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 7: It tends to suggest that their evidence is unreliable and

661
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 7: can't necessarily be trusted, and that they might be looking

662
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 7: to deflect focus on them onto somebody else, probably because

663
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 7: there's a potential element of guilt there.

664
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: I called Andy and Michelle Reid Broman's brother and sister

665
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: in law, and explain the flight time issue with the

666
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: telephone calls. What time did you say the plane actually landed, Well,

667
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: we can't know for certain when it landed, but what

668
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: it was scheduled to do was land at about seven

669
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: point thirty pm.

670
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 11: Planes don't take off ahead of schedule, no, unless they've

671
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 11: got every passenger on board. But it still would not

672
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 11: be an hour because no.

673
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: One, it seems when got a record of that aircraft

674
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: when it actually there's been this assumption that those phone

675
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: calls would have just been made by John, as he asserted,

676
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: and that everything around the flight was not that important

677
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: and it just fell between the cracks under the radar,

678
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: so to speak.

679
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 4: She was concerned, and she already rung mcdebitt to express

680
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 4: concern that she'd found out he was on his way

681
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: up there.

682
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: Do you have a view about how Bromwin would have

683
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: been responding and feeling when she knew that John's arrival

684
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: was imminent. He was in the air.

685
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 12: Well the whole time in that lead up to her

686
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 12: going missing, The biggest worry was him trying to take

687
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 12: the kids.

688
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: She'd have been.

689
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 12: Worried about him turning up for sure, for sure, Hence

690
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 12: the reason she called Chris mcdebitt to get his advice advice.

691
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 4: Another thing that's quite evident in the lead up to this,

692
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 4: as she was obviously speaking of David getting legal advice,

693
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 4: advised to go back to the home, advised by us

694
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 4: to go back to the home, get yourself set in,

695
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 4: get away from all the financial stress. He knew exactly

696
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 4: what was going on.

697
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: He's flown for an hour from Sydney to Ballina and

698
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: then gone back into his own home. Is that the

699
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: sort of thing that John would do. Bring someone and

700
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: say I've got off the flight and I'm at home

701
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: now and I've arrived sakand sound.

702
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 12: Look it doesn't sound like him to me. The Jody

703
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 12: one possibly makes sense.

704
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 4: We need to know if Bromwin made them. What was

705
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 4: conversed about to Jody and to Peter or was it

706
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 4: Louise on the other end of the line.

707
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: We don't know. Could either at the second call.

708
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 11: Those two people Jodie's John's daughter and the Winfield is

709
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 11: his brother and sister in law.

710
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: Why there and not her brother? I wonder what she

711
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: was doing.

712
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 12: Was she pleading with them to try and talk to John.

713
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 11: Maybe it was in the hope that his brother and

714
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 11: his daughter might be able to talk to him.

715
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: She didn't ring us. Was she trying to get some

716
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: help from his family.

717
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 12: Maybe she thought they might have had more clout with him.

718
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 12: If she was worried about what he was doing, I

719
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 12: don't know.

720
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose she was worried.

721
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 11: She knew he was going to try and take the

722
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 11: house back, because that was always being said.

723
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 4: We need to find out We told that many different people,

724
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 4: that many different stories. If you went through everyone's statement

725
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 4: everyone's memory and all the rest of it. You wind

726
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 4: up with a one hundred points of facts that he's

727
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 4: got wrong. I've started to do that. That's incredible. To

728
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 4: be honest. The more you go through this now with

729
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 4: such a fine truth can absolutely my numbing. You're a

730
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 4: one man band, You've got your public help, and the

731
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 4: people have come forward out there in the real world.

732
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: There's Maddie, there's us, there's all us reviewing it.

733
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 4: And here they are a complete homicide unsolved unit and

734
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 4: a statewide police force, and we just hear nothing.

735
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: We just here not one thing that they're moving forward with.

736
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: To be fair, they may be aware of this, you

737
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: don't you. The public help has been incredible, with the

738
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: Facebook discussion group and people emailing me directly emailing Maddie.

739
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: Karina Berger she found the timetable along with another woman

740
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: who has requested an anonymity, and she's a gun investigator. Lazy. Now.

741
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: Early in this episode, you heard detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

742
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: questioning John Winfield. The second half of the nineteen ninety

743
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: eight interview began with a question which has been on

744
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: the minds of.

745
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 3: Many, was the conversation between you and browin quite on

746
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: good terms.

747
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 2: Amicable, Yeah, because the kids were still up and they

748
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: the kids went to bed at about sort of eight

749
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: point thirty.

750
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: Or suppose it's a leading question and John has embraced it.

751
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: A characterization of peace and harmony between a divorcing couple

752
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: must be better than the alternative, particularly when the wife

753
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: has been missing for five years. We can only speculate

754
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: now whether the answer from John would have been different

755
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: if he had been taken to an entry in the

756
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: Police Running Sheets from nineteen ninety three, the entry where

757
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: Deb Hall reports to police what she says John had

758
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: told Deb that John and Bromlan had an altercation on

759
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 1: the Sunday evening May sixteenth, when John arrived at the house.

760
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: The Dictionary definition for altercation is noisy disagreement. It's the

761
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: opposite of a conversation on good terms, a conversation that

762
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: is purportedly amicable. If Deb was the only person who

763
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: recalled John saying that he and Bromin had an altercation,

764
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: it might be one of those he said, she said

765
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: claims that makes sense but can't be given a huge

766
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: amount of weight. But Louise Winfield, the wife of John's

767
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: brother Peter Winfield, made a similar observation in her witness statement,

768
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: which is dated August fourteenth, nineteen ninety eight. That's just

769
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: nine days after John was questioned by Glenn.

770
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 13: Taylor, I became aware that John did go to Lennox Head.

771
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 13: My memory of the following events are very vague, but

772
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 13: I recall John telling us that he and Bronwyn had

773
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 13: a fight and that Bronwyn had walked out.

774
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: There were many important recollections and observations which came out

775
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: in the dozens of interviews Glenn did with witnesses during

776
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: his investigation, but he couldn't put any of those to

777
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: John because John gave the detective one shot at an interview.

778
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 1: We're going to look at this in the next episode

779
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: because Glenn Taylor, who is always trying to help this

780
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: podcast investigation and the Reed family, has offered his perspective

781
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: as an insider on all of it. The situation at

782
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen ninety

783
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: three was something akin to a powder keg with an

784
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: unlit fuse. In my view, I have wondered whether it

785
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: was triggered by John realizing that Broman was determined to

786
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: proceed to divorce did John see in the house that

787
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: night Bromlin's copy of a legal letter which her solicitor,

788
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: Chrismic Debitt, had sent to John in Sydney two days earlier,

789
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: a letter which John would not have received in Sydney

790
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: before he flew to Ballina on Sunday afternoon. But John

791
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: was going to get that letter anyway, and it would

792
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: have been logical for Bronwyn to tell John what her

793
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: instructions were, or to tell him what the legal letter conveyed.

794
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 1: It would have been normal for her to say something

795
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: like John, I don't want an argument, but as you're

796
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: here now, you might as well read what's in the

797
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: letter that was sent to you on Friday. This is

798
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: what Chrismic Debits legal letter to John stated in part.

799
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 14: Bronwyin is hopeful that you will both be able to

800
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 14: reach an agreement in relation to financial matters, and we

801
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 14: will be writing to you further with a proposal in

802
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 14: this regard in the near future. We are instructed by

803
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 14: Bronwyn that in her view, your marriage is out an

804
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 14: and that there is no prospect of a reconciliation. In

805
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 14: the meantime, we require your immediate agreement for Bronwin to

806
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 14: retain the use and possession of the Ford motor vehicle

807
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 14: depending finalization of your financial matters.

808
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: The last paragraph of the legal letter urged John to

809
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: get his own lawyer and to disclose his intentions around

810
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon within the next seven days, and it

811
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: warned John that Bromwin would go to court to get

812
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 1: an interim order giving her possession of the car if

813
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: John failed to respond. Now, let's go back to the

814
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: questioning of John by Glenn Taylor in that nineteen ninety

815
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: eight interview in the Ballana police station. Can you tell

816
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: us what was talked about?

817
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 2: I got no idea. I can't remember what we talked

818
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: about at the moment. We may not even have had

819
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: too much discussion. I really can't remember, to tell you

820
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 2: the truth. She didn't ask me anything about Sydney. I

821
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: didn't really ask her anything about Lettox or probably about

822
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: the kids, you know, just probably about the kids.

823
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: These answers from John where he says they didn't really

824
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: talk about anything, are hard to fathom. John is suggesting

825
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 1: two detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor that it was pretty much

826
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: like any other evening at the family home. Nothing out

827
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: of the ordinary, probably didn't discuss much about anything, but

828
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: this was an extraordinary evening. Tensions must have been very high.

829
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: John had gone to the expense and trouble of having

830
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: new locks installed at the family home. He did that

831
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: to ensure that his estranged wife would not get into

832
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: that home. But she had. Bronwyn had got herself a locksmith,

833
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: and she was living in the house. She had beaten

834
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: and discarded the physical barriers that John had organized, and

835
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: John could see that she now had possession of the house.

836
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: Whatever John believed that possession meant in terms of a

837
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: legal right. Bromwyn had already told John's daughter Jody that

838
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: the property was Bromwin's too, and that John needed to

839
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: be careful about approaching. Here's how Jody described it. You

840
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: heard this in episode four.

841
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 15: I can't recall how it happened, but I rang the

842
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 15: house at Sandstone Crescent and Bronwin answered the telephone. She

843
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 15: told me that she'd moved back into the house with

844
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 15: the kids and that she was staying there. She also

845
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 15: told me that Dad was not welcome there and that

846
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 15: he can stay in Sydney with me. She told me

847
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 15: that she was going to get a restraining order, so

848
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 15: that he couldn't come near the house. She also told

849
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 15: me that the house belonged to her, and I really

850
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 15: know that she changed from the person who wanted us

851
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 15: all to stay close. We both started to argue because

852
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 15: I told her that it was not her house and

853
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 15: that it belonged to Dad, Crystal, Lauren, and me as well.

854
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 15: I also told her that it belonged to us, more

855
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 15: so because she was the one that chose to leave.

856
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 15: It developed into a very heated argument and we were

857
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 15: yelling at each other, and she hung up on me.

858
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 1: Jody told her father about her difficult Friday, May fourteen

859
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 1: conversation with Bromwan. Jody had tried to talk to Bromin

860
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: again on the Saturday morning, but she couldn't reach her stepmother.

861
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: Jody spoke instead to ten year old Crystal, and from

862
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: whatever the child said, Jody concluded that Bromwin was leaving

863
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 1: the two girls on their own in the house. This

864
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: is how Jody described it in her nineteen ninety eight

865
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: police statement.

866
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 15: When I terminated the phone call and told Dad, he

867
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 15: appeared to be very stressed out about it because they

868
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 15: had never been left alone before and he was so

869
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 15: far away. I started ringing at four pm, and from memory,

870
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 15: I think she answered and hung up when she heard

871
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 15: my voice because she knew what was going to happen.

872
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 15: I tried bringing her straight after, but she must have

873
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 15: left the phone off the hook again. It was off

874
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 15: the hook all night. I told Dad and he made

875
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 15: arrangements to fly to Baliner the following day. I felt

876
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 15: that I was out of the situation then when Dad

877
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 15: was going back home to sort it out, so I

878
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 15: left it to him.

879
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: And soon after, a man obsessive about the home he

880
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: had built with his bare hands, who carefully watched every dollar,

881
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: suddenly packed up his things in Sydney, stopped work on

882
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: the building job he was doing in the Shire, and

883
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: spent money he would have preferred to keep in his

884
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: bank account on a costly fair to fly north to Ballina.

885
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: But according to his interview with Detective Glenn Taylor.

886
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: I can't remember what we talked about at the moment.

887
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: We may not even have had too much discussion.

888
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: Now, while Jodie's voice is fresh in your mind, let's

889
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: hear what she said in her police statement in nineteen

890
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: ninety eight about a phone call from Sandstone Crescent on Sunday,

891
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: May sixteenth. This is that six point fifty three pm

892
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: call which John told the detectives that he had made

893
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: to his daughter. It's the call which we believe John

894
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: could not have made because the flight timetables suggests he

895
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: was still in the air on an Anset jet to bowner.

896
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: Jodi referred to the call in the last paragraph of

897
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: her twenty one paragraph statement, which was dated August twelve,

898
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. That's a week after John was interviewed

899
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: by the detectives.

900
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 15: Today, Detective Tenby showed me an STD telephone record. I

901
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 15: can recall that my father rang me at that time

902
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 15: from the home at Lenox Head to tell me that

903
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 15: he'd arrived there safely. I don't recall much of the conversation,

904
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 15: but I believe that Bromwin must have been in the

905
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 15: house at the time. I did not speak to Bronwin,

906
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 15: and as I said before, the phone call was very short.

907
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 15: My father told me that he would ring me later,

908
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 15: and that was about it.

909
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: Jody confirmed in her statement that the telephone number which

910
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: made the call was known to her as having come

911
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: from the home phone at Sandstone Crescent, and Jody confirmed

912
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: that the number it called was Jody's number at the

913
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: time in her flat in Sydney. John's brother Peter Winfield,

914
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: in his statement to police in mid August nineteen ninety eight,

915
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: was also shown the telephone bill and the reference to

916
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: the telephone call being made to Louise and Peter Winfield's

917
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: home at seven oh six pm on sixteen May nineteen

918
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: ninety three. Peter Winfield told the detective Glen Taylor that

919
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: it would have been the call that John made to

920
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: Peter from Lennox Head. He said he didn't remember much

921
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: about that phone call and that John made it in

922
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: the evening. The next thing he says he recalled was

923
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: John and the children arriving in Sydney. Peter said that

924
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: he had tried to remember, but he couldn't recall what

925
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: John said about coming to Sydney with the children. In

926
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: episode five, you heard what John had told police five

927
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: years earlier in nineteen ninety three.

928
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 16: He stated that his wife met him at the door

929
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 16: and they sat and talked for some time in the

930
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 16: dining room. The children were then put to bed and

931
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 16: both he and his wife had an evening meal.

932
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: In this version, the one weeks after Bronwin's disappearance John

933
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: and Bronwin had quite a bit to talk about. After

934
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: the children went to bed, they had an evening meal

935
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: together they talked for some time. Five years later, Crystal

936
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: described it this way in the statement that she made

937
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: two Detective Sergeant Taylor at Ballina Police Station.

938
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 17: I remember being at home in the early evening when

939
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 17: I received a telephone call, and from my recollection, it

940
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 17: was from my father. I don't remember what it was

941
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 17: that I spoke about, but it was not long after

942
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 17: this that my father arrived at the house.

943
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 8: I remember my.

944
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 17: Mother saying something like, what are you doing here? My

945
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 17: father says something about having caught a plane back to Bleana.

946
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 17: I remember Dad coming into the kitchen and I was

947
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 17: sitting watching television. My Dad and Mom started talking, but

948
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 17: I don't know what was being said. The next thing

949
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 17: that I remember was Mum telling myself and my sister

950
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 17: Lauren to clean our teeth and go to bed. After

951
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 17: I went to bed, I heard Mom and Dad arguing

952
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 17: in the kitchen. I could hear Mom crying at the

953
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 17: same time. I don't recall what was being said between

954
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 17: Mom and Dad, but I could tell that they were arguing.

955
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 17: I could hear them arguing until I must have fell asleep.

956
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 17: My next recollection that night was being woken by my father.

957
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 17: Dad told me that he was taking Lauren a iight

958
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 17: to Sydney.

959
01:01:56,120 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the nineteen ninety eight interview. Did

960
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: you communicate to her that you were going to leave

961
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: that same night to go back to Sydney?

962
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: No, no, no way, no.

963
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: How did that all come about?

964
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't say, but like it, I mean, all

965
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 2: of a sudden after the phone calls that she apparently made,

966
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: you know, I heard a car pull up. I was

967
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: sitting there at the dining room table, and she was

968
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: in the bedroom and a car pulled up, and I

969
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 2: mean she opened the front door and she was off.

970
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: That was it. What time was that PNA About quarters

971
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 2: to midnight? I think eleven o'clock. I don't know, you know,

972
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 2: it's probably down there somewhere. This is a mistake by

973
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 2: John in terms of the timing. He had previously said

974
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 2: that Boman left about nine thirty pm. What were you

975
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 2: doing at that point? I was still sitting at the table.

976
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 2: I was still sitting at the table, and I stayed

977
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 2: at the table.

978
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,959
Speaker 1: What time did the kids go to bed?

979
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 2: I think the kids were in bed by that time.

980
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 2: I'm quite sure they were. I you know, I they

981
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: would have been in bed by that time, would have

982
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 2: been in bed by that time.

983
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 3: Well up until that point, hag, you communicated to Braunway

984
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: what you intended to do, whether you stay in the

985
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 3: family home or no.

986
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: No.

987
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 2: I just maybe there was, oh, I can't remember. Maybe

988
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: there was a discussion about sleeping arrangements. I don't know.

989
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 2: I might have said I'll sleep on the lounge. I

990
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 2: don't know what I said. I really can't remember, but

991
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 2: that was it. You know, I had a couple of

992
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 2: cups of tea. I wasn't really sort of tired. I

993
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 2: wasn't in a sleeping sort of mood. And then like

994
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 2: we heard a carpool up and she opened the front door,

995
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 2: and she was off and she left. The front door

996
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 2: were open, and I heard the car go off up

997
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: the hill.

998
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor might have been holding or looking at some

999
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: of the running sheets and other documents from Graham Diskin's

1000
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: investigation five years earlier. Referring to that time, Glenn said

1001
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: to John, you mention that you stayed at the dining

1002
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: room table for some time with Bromlin discussing family matters.

1003
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, probably, I don't know. I can't remember, I mean,

1004
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 2: five years ago. I can't remember where we sat. You know,

1005
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 2: I know I was sitting at the table because I

1006
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: always have this one seat I always sit in, you know,

1007
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: it's just sort of where I used to always sit,

1008
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 2: you know.

1009
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: Here, Glenn Taylor has highlighted John's nineteen ninety three claims

1010
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: about having talked about family matters with Bromwin for some

1011
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: time that night. Perhaps four tactical reasons, the detective has

1012
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: not challenged John about why he claimed they didn't really

1013
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: talk about anything. But it begs the question, what is

1014
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: the correct answer? John? Both answers can't be right.

1015
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 3: You mentioned this too, that there was some discussion between

1016
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 3: you and your wipe about her having a break from

1017
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 3: the children.

1018
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 2: Well, see she left a letter in the car too,

1019
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 2: I mean I go to pick her up. She left

1020
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 2: a letter in the back of the car, and in

1021
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 2: that letter she said that she needed a break.

1022
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:37,479
Speaker 1: And notice that John actually avoided answering the question here

1023
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: by raising the existence of a letter written by Bromwin.

1024
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: John doesn't deal with whatever he claims Bromman had told

1025
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: him that night about wanting to have a bit of

1026
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 1: a break. It's a deflection, and perhaps it was just

1027
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: an accident. Part of the response from John, though, is baffling.

1028
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,919
Speaker 1: It's hard to know what he was talking about when

1029
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: he said, I go to pick her up. She left

1030
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: a letter in the back of the car. The known

1031
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: timeline has John having no physical contact with Bromwan for

1032
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: weeks until his return to the house in Lennox Head.

1033
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: He hadn't picked her up, as in driven somewhere to

1034
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: get her. Broman was in the house with the children

1035
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: when he turned up there on the Sunday night, and

1036
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: she left, according to him, in a mystery car driven

1037
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 1: by an unknown individual, before John left with the children

1038
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 1: to drive to Sydney overnight. We know about the letter

1039
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: you heard excerpts from Broman's writing in earlier episodes.

1040
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 18: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.

1041
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 18: The house that was Bill became John's castle and my prison.

1042
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 18: Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. He had

1043
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 18: a heart of ice and always criticized me no matter

1044
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 18: what I did. The man was cold and heartless and

1045
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 18: gave nothing but expected everything. That'll be fine now, A

1046
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 18: little break for a few weeks and everyone will see

1047
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 18: the old me look out.

1048
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: John was vague about the contents of the letter when

1049
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor raised it.

1050
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 2: I can't remember what was in the letter. It was

1051
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 2: a long letter. I mean, I know I gave it

1052
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 2: to Graham anyway. You know, I'd be lying if I

1053
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 2: told you I can remember what was said, because I

1054
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,919
Speaker 2: can't remember what I said, you know. I mean, it's

1055
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 2: that long ago and I've put it out of my mind,

1056
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 2: I really have.

1057
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 3: You know, was it anything that you can retral about

1058
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 3: whether you and her to say that you were going

1059
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 3: to take the children down to Sydney?

1060
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 2: No, no, never, never. It's just that when she bolted

1061
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 2: out that door and drove up the street, you know,

1062
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 2: and left the car, well, you know, I thought, oh well,

1063
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 2: I'll just take the kids to city with me. You know,

1064
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just a spontaneous thing. But I

1065
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: just did it, you know, So I did it.

1066
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 3: Were you not concerned that she go to the police

1067
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:14,919
Speaker 3: and say that you've taken the kids?

1068
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1069
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 2: But see, in the eyes of the family court, everyone's

1070
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 2: got a right to access until the court determines, you know. So,

1071
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean I hadn't seen the kids for weeks, so

1072
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 2: I sort of decided to take them. I may have

1073
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 2: discussed it with her. I can't honestly remember, I'll tell

1074
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 2: you the truth. I can't remember whether I said, listen,

1075
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 2: how about leaving the kids with me, because like it's

1076
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,719
Speaker 2: five years I really don't think about it that much.

1077
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't school holidays at that time, was it?

1078
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 2: You can check that. I can't remember, but it may have.

1079
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was in May, so I don't know.

1080
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 1: In fact, it was not school holidays at the time.

1081
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: Children were meant to be at school on Monday, May seventeenth.

1082
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 1: It's still a mystery why John took off so suddenly,

1083
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: particularly as he said that he had brought his surfboard

1084
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: and his gear back to Banana on the aircraft, and

1085
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: his story was that Bromin had announced to him that

1086
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: night that she was going away for a few days.

1087
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: On his version, he would have had the house and

1088
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 1: the children to himself. He didn't need to drive anywhere.

1089
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: This car that you heard pull up, it just pulled

1090
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: up out the street, out the front.

1091
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 2: Did you say, yeah, I was thinking about the school holidays.

1092
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 2: It could have been school holidays. I don't know.

1093
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 1: What did it sound like? Did it sound just a car?

1094
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, if you're trying, was it a

1095
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 2: four cylinder or a V eight? I don't know, see

1096
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 2: what I.

1097
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:52,759
Speaker 1: Mean, you're not sure?

1098
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 2: No?

1099
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 3: No, how do you know that it stopped at the

1100
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 3: front of your place because I heard it? You know

1101
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 3: what the engine I was stopped there with the engine ray.

1102
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 2: The engine running. Yeah, and you didn't go to investigate. No, No,

1103
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 2: at next stage you thought, I mean, once she'd gone

1104
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 2: and the car gone up the hill, I walked up

1105
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 2: and she was gone. The car was gone. So I

1106
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 2: just shut the front door and the front door was

1107
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 2: still open. The front door was still open. Yeah.

1108
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,839
Speaker 1: Do you go and check whether she'd taken anything close

1109
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: or I didn't?

1110
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 2: No, I don't think I did. I mean I think

1111
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 2: I noticed her handbag was gone or something like that.

1112
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 1: So there was no communication with to her that she

1113
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: was even leaving in the house.

1114
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: No. No, she didn't say I'm going or anything like that.

1115
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 1: No, So these phone calls happened. I'm not long after

1116
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: the phone call was car pulls up?

1117
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I said to Graham at the time, well,

1118
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 2: maybe one of these phone calls that she made might

1119
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 2: have been to a bloke to come and pick her up,

1120
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 2: you know, or a friend. So like Graham has suggested

1121
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 2: to me, maybe that was her boyfriend, just come round

1122
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 2: a pay or a visit. I don't know that was

1123
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 2: his suggestion, you know.

1124
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: Bronwin is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1125
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1126
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1127
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:42,799
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1128
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1129
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website bronwynpodcast

1130
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1131
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1132
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1133
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

1134
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and

1135
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted

1136
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can

1137
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 1: only do this kind of journalism with the support of

1138
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,680
Speaker 1: our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman for

1139
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:39,560
Speaker 1: all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents

1140
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

1141
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1142
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

1143
01:12:52,360 --> 01:13:02,639
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe