Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I had a great chat with Liz Hayes. You probably
Speaker 1: recognized Liz, after all, she's been a television reporter and
Speaker 1: investigative journalist for more than forty years. In that time,
Speaker 1: she's interviewed serial killers, track down pedophiles, and covered some
Speaker 1: of the world's most notorious crimes. During Liz's journalism career,
Speaker 1: she not only hosted The Today Show for a decade,
Speaker 1: but also worked on the iconic sixty minutes program for
Speaker 1: over twenty years. It's a position that's highly sought after
Speaker 1: in the world of journalism. We spoke about a life
Speaker 1: and the amazing experiences traveling the world reporting from war
Speaker 1: zones to natural disasters. I also got the gossip on
Speaker 1: celebrities she's interviewed. There is not much Liz hasn't seen
Speaker 1: throughout her career. I work briefly with Liz as a
Speaker 1: journalist and I always enjoyed her company, and today's chap
Speaker 1: was no different. Liz, welcome to I catch killers.
Speaker 2: Gosh am I killer.
Speaker 1: We don't know yet. That's the start of it.
Speaker 2: Well, that is the exciting bit, isn't it.
Speaker 1: If I caution you, maybe you need to get your solicity.
Speaker 1: But I not caution you at this stage, So it
Speaker 1: feel free to just discuss whatever whatever. Thank you talking about?
Speaker 1: Thank you?
Speaker 2: I feel right?
Speaker 1: Can I put up front? I'm nervous interview in you,
Speaker 1: and I think I told you that the other day
Speaker 1: when we're speaking. Then you said, why would I be nervous?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't understand why you would be nervous, because
Speaker 3: you've faced off many a person who's been more threatening
Speaker 3: than I.
Speaker 1: Would have been well, we don't know. We'll find out.
Speaker 2: I'm not one of your worries, I don't think.
Speaker 1: But you are, Liz Hayes. And like from a journalist interviewer,
Speaker 1: you've probably interviewed more people than I've locked up bad guys.
Speaker 3: I haven't interviewed a lot of people, without a doubt.
Speaker 3: I'm a bit shocked about it myself, but you know,
Speaker 3: I've been doing it for well. When I left nine,
Speaker 3: I had been there for forty four years, and I
Speaker 3: was a journalist when I was seventeenth. I've just turned
Speaker 3: sixty nine, so I'm fifty two years to it.
Speaker 1: So that's a lot of experience. So that's why I'm intimidating.
Speaker 1: And I'll put it up front too, I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit jealous of you after reading your book and as
Speaker 1: a sixty minutes journalist. That has always been I think
Speaker 1: when I first saw George and Vegas driving along the
Speaker 1: desert with a scarf around his neck on the g
Speaker 1: such a showman he was, I thought, that looks like
Speaker 1: a cool geek.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was and it still is.
Speaker 3: But it was a cool gig way back then, when
Speaker 3: you know, not many people were doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: You have. You've spent a long time in journalism. As
Speaker 1: you said, what changes have you say in journalism over
Speaker 1: the years? How does it change?
Speaker 2: Do you mean?
Speaker 3: In terms, nothing's changed about telling stories. That stays the
Speaker 3: same as like policing and now you're telling stories. Stories
Speaker 3: don't change. It's the way in which they're told, I think,
Speaker 3: and how you get them out podcasts. We never heard
Speaker 3: of computers in my day. We didn't have a computer.
Speaker 3: I certainly didn't have a mobile phone.
Speaker 2: I came.
Speaker 3: I came from notebook and a pen and a typewriter manual,
Speaker 3: not even a plug in typewriter. So just in terms
Speaker 3: of how to deliver the stories, I think is about
Speaker 3: the only thing that's changed. Of course, maybe the other
Speaker 3: thing that's changed is that everybody's a bit of a
Speaker 3: reporter now because if you've got a mobile phone or something,
Speaker 3: you can record something and you can send that in
Speaker 3: and suddenly you're reporting or you're capturing a moment. So
Speaker 3: technologies I think the thing that's changed journalism. I don't
Speaker 3: think fundamentally it's changed that. Beyond that, there's lots of fads.
Speaker 3: Tabloid journalism has always been around. Maybe celebrities have captured
Speaker 3: the market. I don't know why we're obsessed with celebrities,
Speaker 3: but we are.
Speaker 2: So that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, once upon a time you would
Speaker 3: never see the news bulletin start with Kim Kardashian, but
Speaker 3: it does, even though there might have been a bit
Speaker 3: of a nasty train accident up the road, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean that sort of stuff startles me a bit.
Speaker 3: But I think the fundamentals haven't changed. You know, lots
Speaker 3: of stuff around the edges has changed, but telling stories
Speaker 3: is still what it's all about.
Speaker 2: Or in four or call into account. You know.
Speaker 3: That's the good thing about journalism. I think, you know what,
Speaker 3: it is all part of democracy.
Speaker 1: I think it does play an important role, doesn't in
Speaker 1: keeping people informed. We're going to get into how you
Speaker 1: got into journalism, but before we do, because the podcast
Speaker 1: is I Catch Killers, I've got to put a little
Speaker 1: bit of crime in. Can you tell us about the
Speaker 1: case that you recall or had an impact on you?
Speaker 3: The killer of Zara Baker, you know, the Australian girl
Speaker 3: who'd had had suffered cancer and she and her dad
Speaker 3: went over to America because he found online Lisa Baker
Speaker 3: and she stepmother.
Speaker 2: She was the stepmother.
Speaker 3: She'd had seven husbands and he didn't know that she
Speaker 3: wasn't divorced. But anyway, she ended up killing this little
Speaker 3: Zara Baker and chopping her into pieces. So I interviewed her,
Speaker 3: and I swear to God, that woman, Wow, wow. I
Speaker 3: did come away going wow, there's no part of her
Speaker 3: that's taking responsibility for this. Even though she pleaded guilty,
Speaker 3: she's not taking responsibility for this at all. She's wow.
Speaker 1: Trying to explain her crime.
Speaker 2: She didn't do it.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, she pleaded guilty, but that was so she
Speaker 3: didn't go to get the death penalty in her She
Speaker 3: just said, I didn't do it, and I feel really sorry,
Speaker 3: and I'm so sad.
Speaker 2: I really miss Sarah, you know. And it's just like wow,
Speaker 2: the evidence.
Speaker 3: Her own lawyer told her, the evidence is so overwhelming,
Speaker 3: you know, you there's not a chance.
Speaker 1: But I've met more than like the remember those type
Speaker 1: that I didn't do it, did.
Speaker 2: The fact and the whole thing, and nor Man.
Speaker 1: And I think it's almost they get to the point
Speaker 1: where they're convinced themselves, like they're just going to keep
Speaker 1: this narrative going no matter what, Like you can produce
Speaker 1: there's a failo of you killing the person.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, no without I was kind of shocked at
Speaker 3: how hard she was going to go for I didn't
Speaker 3: do this, Well who did?
Speaker 1: Did you break it down? List?
Speaker 2: I tell you what.
Speaker 3: The guards who were there at the time, they went,
Speaker 3: this is not gonna be a not like this is.
Speaker 3: Do we have to bring in reinforcements because I was
Speaker 3: I truly thought, I just can't listen to you do this,
Speaker 3: you know. I came away from that going, well, I
Speaker 3: just don't understand how anybody could do that to a
Speaker 3: little girl, I guess. And killing is one thing, mutilating
Speaker 3: cutting them up is another. Hiding the bits in the
Speaker 3: bush all. I just can't get my head around that stuff.
Speaker 3: And so, and I don't know why women do it.
Speaker 3: We know and she did, but I don't know. I
Speaker 3: always think that's a big step for a woman.
Speaker 2: I don't know why. I say, well, it's.
Speaker 1: A big step for anyone cutting the body up and
Speaker 1: it's not easy, but yeah, it's I think there's a
Speaker 1: misconception that women can't do those sort of violent crimes
Speaker 1: because I've seen women do that. But the jury even
Speaker 1: find it hard to convict someone of a murder if
Speaker 1: it's a person that looks like their mum sitting there
Speaker 1: in the in the dock. So it's an interesting take.
Speaker 1: How have you stayed so grounded?
Speaker 2: Oh blame my mom and dad.
Speaker 3: And I've got four brothers who all tell me I'm
Speaker 3: just best Ryan from Taru, and I am.
Speaker 2: Look, I yeah, I look truly.
Speaker 3: I think it's that fundamental upbringing lots of people around
Speaker 3: me who are just everyday people. I have always viewed
Speaker 3: myself as lucky, but I took opportunities. I was prepared
Speaker 3: to take a risk, but ultimately I was not good
Speaker 3: at buying into the bullshit because I was a bit
Speaker 3: frightened it would go tips up anyway. You know, it'd
Speaker 3: be like, oh God, if I blow my trumpet now
Speaker 3: and out of my ars next week, it's just going
Speaker 3: to be embarrassing.
Speaker 2: So I've always had that in the back of my head.
Speaker 2: You've got to be a bit careful.
Speaker 1: And that you think that comes from your childhood, like
Speaker 1: growing up you grew up in Tari.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is you know, just.
Speaker 1: Topics till at the moment, Yeah, still very soggy.
Speaker 3: Look, you know, I braxed my heart when I see
Speaker 3: that now I'm a dairy farmer's daughter, and seeing those
Speaker 3: cows wash down a river and turning up on a
Speaker 3: beach is truly I can understand. You know, it's just
Speaker 3: awful on so many levels. But also you know, so
Speaker 3: many families, houses are gone and our old farm's gone
Speaker 3: and all that. But country town upbringing is really interesting.
Speaker 3: Everybody knows who you are, and whilst that's good, it
Speaker 3: can be bad. But ultimately it's just basic. You're in
Speaker 3: a small community. Consequences are quick.
Speaker 1: Well, you held accountable in the small community because every runs.
Speaker 3: Busy, yeah, and you learn very quickly what community spirit's about,
Speaker 3: the good, the bad.
Speaker 2: You know, the gossip, but.
Speaker 3: You know how powerful it can be to support your
Speaker 3: neighbor and what it means to take care of another
Speaker 3: human being. And judgment is always there, but sometimes being
Speaker 3: quick to judges, you come to realize that that's painful,
Speaker 3: and that's hurtful, and that and that's wrong, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's a combination of things. But and we were
Speaker 3: never allowed to be arrogant.
Speaker 1: And it does hold you in good stead because the
Speaker 1: positions you've had within the media, you could lose your found.
Speaker 3: Lose absolutely and I think when I first particularly Channel nine,
Speaker 3: I mean Sam Chism was very good at making you know,
Speaker 3: he created this star state, if you want to put
Speaker 3: it that way, and and you know it was I
Speaker 3: could see how easy it was to get lost in
Speaker 3: all course squad up in that that. Yeah, because and
Speaker 3: for me it was like what you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: this is all crazy, but yeah, somehow in all of that,
Speaker 3: I you know what a lot of my colleagues are
Speaker 3: from country towns as well.
Speaker 1: Well, you've got to be a little bit rape us to,
Speaker 1: especially with your work in sixty minutes some of the
Speaker 1: places you go to.
Speaker 3: You've got to be robust in media, let's pay that's true.
Speaker 3: You know you've got to if you're if you're a
Speaker 3: bit fragile, I don't like your chances. And you know
Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily imbued with enormous confidence at all.
Speaker 1: Well, you displayed your confidence very early in the confessional box.
Speaker 1: And this is you know, I do my research before
Speaker 1: we did my research. And well, I think you're eight
Speaker 1: years old and following the Catholic faith and sent to
Speaker 1: confessional and you got in there and told the price
Speaker 1: that I have no sense I did.
Speaker 3: And the story is that he happened to be my
Speaker 3: mother's uncle, the priest. It's country towns. We're on an island,
Speaker 3: one little church and the professional boxes in the corn
Speaker 3: without a roof on it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just a little so everyone's listening.
Speaker 2: Everyone's listening. And yeah, he shouted at me.
Speaker 3: I said, you know, I had the audacity to suggest
Speaker 3: I had no sense, because, as I said, I hadn't killed,
Speaker 3: I hadn't stolen. I couldn't imagine this week was pretty
Speaker 3: clear as far as I could see as an eight
Speaker 3: year old. And he just shouted back at me, you
Speaker 3: are fighting with your brothers because.
Speaker 2: He had been staying with us. And of course he
Speaker 2: was right, but I just thought, oh wow, an eight
Speaker 2: year old people.
Speaker 1: Well, I liked that you were staunched because I'd clapped
Speaker 1: under the pressure. I've never been into a confessional box,
Speaker 1: but Jesus, if the big fellows looking down at me,
Speaker 1: I'd better tell the truth.
Speaker 2: Well, I you know, all I know is that it
Speaker 2: stayed with me. I have to tell you. I did
Speaker 2: think how bloody harsh was that? You know, that was
Speaker 2: a bit cruel.
Speaker 3: That is cruel, and and you know, I just thought,
Speaker 3: if that's what you do to an eight year old,
Speaker 3: My goodness.
Speaker 1: Another part of your childhood we could I could have
Speaker 1: been in the viewing you here as a former gold
Speaker 1: medal winner, winners athletics.
Speaker 2: It was never going to happen. It was never going
Speaker 2: to have my far.
Speaker 3: The thought that your father thought, oh my dad was well, look,
Speaker 3: I was a very good runner.
Speaker 2: I was a sprinter. I wasn't a staye you know.
Speaker 3: I was a sprinter and I was very good in
Speaker 3: my little circle. And I wasn't winner, and I did
Speaker 3: get to stay competitions, but I was out gunned totally
Speaker 3: by those who turned up. I was barefoot, the Sola
Speaker 3: bard of Oxley Island. But yeah, the others turned up
Speaker 3: with you know, spiky shoes.
Speaker 1: It was like, anyway, well what was it called Oxley? Well,
Speaker 1: diminish that you're fast.
Speaker 3: As I was a Guinea Guinea flash there for a while,
Speaker 3: which was another little community up the road.
Speaker 2: So I was a big deal.
Speaker 3: But as I said, I think I lost my ticker
Speaker 3: and I thought I was a bit lazy. Dad had
Speaker 3: me running behind the car.
Speaker 1: Well, and you're a sprint and not a stayer. But
Speaker 1: Cliff Young chasing the cows around the Paddy.
Speaker 3: I did look at him later in life and thought,
Speaker 3: thank god I didn't continue, So.
Speaker 2: I felt good that I might have changed direction.
Speaker 1: You found that you're ostracized, probably too strong a word.
Speaker 1: One of the schools you went to you didn't fit in.
Speaker 1: They weren't your people. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, and there you go, very small community, but there
Speaker 3: we were on this little island. And then we went
Speaker 3: to town, which is where the town was where I
Speaker 3: went to high school, because the island actually had its
Speaker 3: own school.
Speaker 2: I was one of three kids in my class.
Speaker 1: So where'd you come in the classroom?
Speaker 3: Did they always you know, one of the first three,
Speaker 3: in the top three, the top three? So yes, no,
Speaker 3: I experienced a little bit of what I guess now
Speaker 3: would be considered bullying, you know, and it did set
Speaker 3: me back. I did think I'm not good enough. It
Speaker 3: really rocked me, and my grades went down. But Mom
Speaker 3: and Dad had sort of picked up on something and
Speaker 3: determined that I should change schools, and I hadn't spoken
Speaker 3: to them about it because I was a bit embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I felt a bit, you know, like I'm not good
Speaker 2: enough and I can't let on.
Speaker 1: Difficult time, isn't it.
Speaker 3: It is a really difficult time as a kid, particularly
Speaker 3: and you you know I'm a pleaser.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you want to be I want to be
Speaker 1: one of the cool kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I want people to like me. You know.
Speaker 2: So it's a really terrible time.
Speaker 1: But you found your tribe at your next school.
Speaker 3: I found the tribe that was just you know, kicking
Speaker 3: around balls in the playground, just like me. You know,
Speaker 3: I mean the good country stock, let's face it, and
Speaker 3: no airs and graces.
Speaker 2: It was, you know, this is my tribe.
Speaker 1: So we've got Your career in athletics has not panned
Speaker 1: out the way you'd hoped and upset the priests by
Speaker 1: not being true in the confessional. You've changed schools you
Speaker 1: leave school. Did you ever consider journalism? Was that something passion?
Speaker 3: I was always fascinated because the my dad always loved
Speaker 3: the news. The newspaper always arrived and you know, no
Speaker 3: one was allowed to touch it until dad had finished with it.
Speaker 3: And when the news and we got a television because
Speaker 3: there was a champion sailor and won a television, and
Speaker 3: I started to see news on television because that's what
Speaker 3: we were allowed to watch. I never thought in a
Speaker 3: million years I'd be doing that, but I was fascinated
Speaker 3: by news, and of course in the dairy the radio
Speaker 3: is on and the news comes on, so somehow rather
Speaker 3: that might have filtered through, but I didn't anticipate I
Speaker 3: could do it until you know, ultimately an ad was
Speaker 3: in the paper.
Speaker 1: And tell us about that.
Speaker 3: You started well that near and that went well to
Speaker 3: begin with. I applied for the job a cadet journalist
Speaker 3: in at the local paper, at the Manning River Times,
Speaker 3: and Kenny mack, the editor Kenny McDonald at the time,
Speaker 3: basically said well, we're looking.
Speaker 2: For a sports reporter and you know you're a woman,
Speaker 2: you're a girl.
Speaker 1: I think out what good runner you were.
Speaker 3: I never even got that far because he said something like, well,
Speaker 3: how do you reckon you go at the football match?
Speaker 3: You know, because everyone knows that all the good interviews
Speaker 3: take place in the dressing room and you know you
Speaker 3: can't go in there. Well I could wait till they
Speaker 3: came out, you know. Anyway, I didn't get it, and
Speaker 3: ultimately they hired a big burly roar.
Speaker 2: I think he was from Sydney.
Speaker 3: I think he was a great guy all that, and
Speaker 3: I think everybody decided he couldn't spell or whatever, and
Speaker 3: he and the editor determined it was a great idea
Speaker 3: for him to really pursue his career elsewhere.
Speaker 2: And so I got another call.
Speaker 3: Well, actually, my mother ran into the editor walking down
Speaker 3: the street as you do in the main street of
Speaker 3: a country town, and said, do you know, do you
Speaker 3: think your daughter might be interested in applying? So mom
Speaker 3: came home, and Mum was the star of our family.
Speaker 3: She knew that that's probably what she would like, That's
Speaker 3: probably what.
Speaker 2: I would like and if I went.
Speaker 3: Of course, by then I was working for the Forestry Commission,
Speaker 3: earning forty bucks a week and Dad was like, that's
Speaker 3: a good government job. And Mom's like, well, you know,
Speaker 3: journalism could be interesting. It was thirty dollars a week.
Speaker 3: Dad was like, you're kidding me, Why.
Speaker 1: Are you leaving the you could be working in the
Speaker 1: Forestry Commission.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's exactly where I could have been.
Speaker 1: Doesn't that isn't that important? Like your mom? And you're
Speaker 1: attributing your mom to pushing the kid to take a
Speaker 1: little risk. As a parent, you can think I don't
Speaker 1: want them to take a risk. But what a great
Speaker 1: mum that encourage you.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think if I was.
Speaker 1: Because it's changed your whole life.
Speaker 2: Oh totally.
Speaker 3: My mother would speak to me under the hills hoist
Speaker 3: and say, you don't have to do anything you don't
Speaker 3: want to do it. I don't think you've got to
Speaker 3: get married, don't think you've got to do She was
Speaker 3: pretty on the ball about as a woman, as a
Speaker 3: young girl, how I should be allowed to see my life,
Speaker 3: not to limit it. And she was pretty conservative. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, her cues were coming from her
Speaker 3: own life as far as I could see. You know,
Speaker 3: she she too didn't want to stay at home. She
Speaker 3: wanted a job, she wanted to get out. She was
Speaker 3: a personality, she had she had, you know, rains to
Speaker 3: burn in many respects, and she wanted to use them.
Speaker 3: And I think she didn't want that for me to be,
Speaker 3: you know, tired down necessarily. If I didn't want that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great advice. And yeah, shape your
Speaker 1: shape your whole career.
Speaker 2: Well, she loved me to open the gate.
Speaker 3: And you know, in a country town, I did what
Speaker 3: I probably would not have normally done.
Speaker 2: I got out, you know, I mean, mind you, I did.
Speaker 1: Marry quite a few times. We go into that.
Speaker 2: I know, I just and she's just gone out with
Speaker 2: a lot of people.
Speaker 1: There's no judgment. We all make mistakes.
Speaker 2: Well I don't even know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're not mistakes.
Speaker 2: I don't even know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in your book you talk at your first reporting
Speaker 1: court experience was pretty funny.
Speaker 2: Oh, it was pretty awful.
Speaker 3: It was day one off my condection and I was
Speaker 3: told i'd be set up to the court. I'd never
Speaker 3: been to the court, all, no idea what I knew,
Speaker 3: nothing about police authorities, nothing, you know. It was totally intimidating.
Speaker 3: And it was up the hill. Of course you've been there,
Speaker 3: the Tari Court, which is the police station. The Catholic
Speaker 3: churches were up beside it where I went to school,
Speaker 3: where all those bullies were for a period of time.
Speaker 3: And I just remember walking up that hill with my
Speaker 3: notebook and pen, thinking, oh my god. But my editor
Speaker 3: before I walked out the door, just shouted, don't forget
Speaker 3: to bow.
Speaker 2: Was like what I couldn't.
Speaker 3: I felt like, what, I can't turn around and say
Speaker 3: what do you mean? Because I thought, oh, no, that
Speaker 3: sounds I'm stupid. I can't so we don't have to
Speaker 3: work that out. So I got up there, and of
Speaker 3: course I was bowing hello, Hello, doing a lot of bowing,
Speaker 3: bowing everybody, vowing to everybody, got inside, and finally the
Speaker 3: clerk of the court came up and.
Speaker 2: Said, you stopped.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you stopped that. We just a bow to
Speaker 3: the magistrate when it comes through the door. And was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, no wonder. Everybody's having a little bit
Speaker 3: of a chuckle.
Speaker 1: And I could just imagine the young fresh journalists and
Speaker 1: the old hardheads legal people around there, the cops, everyone
Speaker 1: would have just been going.
Speaker 2: First of all, I was a girl.
Speaker 3: I was, and I'm seventeen, so you can imagine I've
Speaker 3: walked that is a man's world. Yeah, yeah, seventies, we're talking.
Speaker 3: It was a man's world and there was no way
Speaker 3: and I was. I was out of place basically as
Speaker 3: far as they were concerned, except when they heard I
Speaker 3: was from the local paper. And then I can see
Speaker 3: them allmost thinking that's over. I thought her out later.
Speaker 1: How did you get it with your stories? You enjoy it?
Speaker 3: I did because it was a whole new world for me,
Speaker 3: and I actually found some nice people who did tell me.
Speaker 3: You know, you can check out the list beforehand and you.
Speaker 2: Can see who.
Speaker 1: For a month or two, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: I got a few hints and I got to understand
Speaker 3: court hearings, and I was fascinated by that. I do
Speaker 3: recall being so fascinated that I was sitting there in
Speaker 3: the children's court. Issue came up and the magistrate looked
Speaker 3: at me and I'm looking back at him, and he says,
Speaker 3: get out.
Speaker 2: It's close court.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, sorry, So they gave you
Speaker 1: a bit of letitude.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, No, they came to know me, and I
Speaker 3: came to be nice to me. But yeah, But and
Speaker 3: of course it's small. You know everybody. It's a local,
Speaker 3: it's a local court. I mean, there are lots of
Speaker 3: people driving through committing crime, which was always helpful. But
Speaker 3: when it was a local you just actually in a
Speaker 3: small community.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 3: When when they're driving fast up that highway and there's
Speaker 3: a big accident, and there always was, you always were
Speaker 3: worried that you would know who that was, that's and
Speaker 3: in the court room you always felt, please God, don't
Speaker 3: make it one of my family.
Speaker 1: What was that charge?
Speaker 2: But so it didn't, and of course the inevitable did.
Speaker 1: Happen, and you had to have the report on someone.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had to report.
Speaker 3: I was sitting there and I did see this on
Speaker 3: the list, this woman whose name just didn't register it
Speaker 3: with me, I don't even and it was up on
Speaker 3: fraud and I thought, and I was sitting there, I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: and in came this woman. I went, oh, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I'm her bridesmaid coming up in the.
Speaker 2: Next door in the next month or two.
Speaker 3: And I just remember thinking, oh, anyway, I wrote dutifully
Speaker 3: down all the details, and she kind of looked, but
Speaker 3: she looked away, and I just thought, I don't even
Speaker 3: know what I'm going to do here, But anyway, I
Speaker 3: wrote it all down, and then I got back and
Speaker 3: I just I thought, I'm just going to bang it out.
Speaker 3: And then of course, before my bum even hit the seat,
Speaker 3: she's ringing me to say, please don't, please, don't report
Speaker 3: this story. Please I don't tell the family, and.
Speaker 2: Be don't report this story. And I'm like, I'm made.
Speaker 3: Fairly, you know, And I just said, I just because
Speaker 3: one of the things I was told I had to
Speaker 3: present all the stories.
Speaker 2: I wasn't to pick and choose.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I was told that very but it's a
Speaker 1: lesson than a small environment that you would have encountered
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of moral decisions to make in journalists.
Speaker 2: And it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's funny you should say that because things
Speaker 3: aren't I know, things are black and white in law,
Speaker 3: but sometimes people's behavior falls into categories that you just go, god,
Speaker 3: you know, does that make them entirely bad? You know,
Speaker 3: you are constantly making decisions about how to deal with somebody.
Speaker 1: How to report them?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Is this is this where you in your case perhaps caution,
Speaker 3: I don't know, or is this a place where you
Speaker 3: go to up to someoney and go, look, I'm going
Speaker 3: to have to tell this story. But can you tell
Speaker 3: me why you know or something you know? Just it
Speaker 3: is a constant.
Speaker 1: Well, funny you say that, because I know when I
Speaker 1: first came into journalism and there was policing was black
Speaker 1: and white to a degree, or what I was doing
Speaker 1: as a detective locking people up. So you know someone's
Speaker 1: done something bad, you investigate it, lock them up if
Speaker 1: you can move on to the next one. But when
Speaker 1: I came into journalism and you know, I've been asked
Speaker 1: to write a story on this andy and I'm thinking, okay, well,
Speaker 1: which do I slant it this way? Or am I
Speaker 1: objective enough to write a story. So a lot of
Speaker 1: gray area in journalism I didn't realize. And I know
Speaker 1: media get the kicking, but there's a lot of There's
Speaker 1: some unethical people in there, like there is in the cops,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of ethical people in there too.
Speaker 1: I've seen people that I respect in the media really
Speaker 1: reflect on, Okay, should we tell this or shouldn't we
Speaker 1: tell this story?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you might be thinking about the long term
Speaker 3: consequences for that person, maybe it's a mental health issue
Speaker 3: or something, and it is you are having to determine
Speaker 3: whether it's.
Speaker 2: In the public interest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a killer, because ultimately there's a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff that's not necessarily in the public interest and
Speaker 3: that would fall into a gossipy department, you know, is
Speaker 3: that really the public interest? Is that something we're all
Speaker 3: going to benefit from, that we will all learn from,
Speaker 3: that will all go gosh, we should change the law,
Speaker 3: do something as a result because of that. Yeah, but no,
Speaker 3: it is a it isn't always black and white.
Speaker 1: And then for an eight year old fresh out of school,
Speaker 1: cadet have been a lot of difficult discasser.
Speaker 3: It was frightening, it was hair raising and it was
Speaker 3: you know, anyway, I turned up at the wedding.
Speaker 2: I wore the.
Speaker 3: Bridesmaids, but the story was written and she did have
Speaker 3: to tell the family and look and and everybody got
Speaker 3: on with it. But it was Yeah, that was my
Speaker 3: first hard lesson. Actually, I had to assess whether I
Speaker 3: was up for this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. How long did you stay there?
Speaker 2: Mannure of times? I was there for about four years.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a good ground thing. That's an apprenticeship,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Oh, a cadeccy is That's exactly what it is. But
Speaker 3: in a countrytown. I always tell people wanting to get
Speaker 3: into journalism because usually they want to start at the top.
Speaker 2: They want to read the news at six o'clock.
Speaker 3: But ultimately I'd say, if you can get a foot
Speaker 3: in the door, because everybody wants to be a journal
Speaker 3: but you know, if you don't want to go to UNI, whatever,
Speaker 3: But in my mind, if you can get a practical job,
Speaker 3: if you can get a foot in the door of
Speaker 3: a countrytown newspaper or radio or television, that's a great
Speaker 3: place to start because you'll be asked to do everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good advice. Isn't it really getting that done?
Speaker 3: And you will make mistakes, Yeah, and you will learn
Speaker 3: in that environment potentially without suffering too many, too.
Speaker 1: Much damage, come more robust too. You get to understand, okay,
Speaker 1: this is the way of the world.
Speaker 3: And you know how to ask questions. You'll learn what
Speaker 3: are the questions? You know what brought you the Sydney?
Speaker 3: Oh husband, okay, finding love?
Speaker 2: No, I was already married.
Speaker 3: My first husband was offered a job to He was
Speaker 3: a builder and come to Sydney, so I thought, what not? Yeah,
Speaker 3: of course, you know, well, you know, it's his job.
Speaker 3: And I didn't have any serious issue with that. In fact,
Speaker 3: I saw that as okay, well, let's see how it rolls.
Speaker 1: Give it the game. So you came down here with
Speaker 1: the intent and getting involved in journalism.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I didn't think that a country town journal
Speaker 3: would measure up necessarily. I didn't have high hopes, but
Speaker 3: I did think that I should give it a shot.
Speaker 3: So I applied for jobs to everybody, including Arta Buttros,
Speaker 3: who said thank you, no, thank.
Speaker 2: You, you know, but fair enough. But yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Kept banging away, and I think I spent a lot
Speaker 3: of time sitting on a bean bag watching.
Speaker 1: What happened to bean bags.
Speaker 2: I don't care what you say there.
Speaker 1: Okay, they're not really stylish, but they are comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know how you dress it up hard hitting issues.
Speaker 1: We discussed eye catch killers, but they were good. They
Speaker 1: were very comfortable. Okay, so you're down there.
Speaker 3: But you did get a start, yes, yes, so I
Speaker 3: got into I got into magazines and then the editor,
Speaker 3: which didn't go that well. Necessarily. I'm not good with celebrities.
Speaker 3: I just am not so.
Speaker 2: And this was a magazine.
Speaker 3: Oh actually the magazine was to Rifle was Signature magazine,
Speaker 3: which was for American Express people who were expecting, you know,
Speaker 3: very high level articles on wine and accommodation. I had
Speaker 3: none of that. They also did TV Week and whatnot.
Speaker 3: So anyway, I wasn't great with asking people.
Speaker 1: Instead of wine. There was reference in them you actually
Speaker 1: drank the wine.
Speaker 3: As I was set out to do a story on
Speaker 3: this new organic vineyard out of Mudge, and no one
Speaker 3: told me how to spit it out.
Speaker 1: That's nice. I look another one, but you know, and and.
Speaker 3: Of course you know, we started after I had a
Speaker 3: piece of toast and VIJI.
Speaker 2: Right, it was that early and.
Speaker 3: It was, and I did thank my photographer because he said, look,
Speaker 3: I'm just going to take us all down to get
Speaker 3: some shots.
Speaker 2: In the videos while you sit down.
Speaker 1: Time to leave.
Speaker 2: It was very funny. I mean, I just don't know how.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: It's well, you've got a fall, so you can get
Speaker 1: back up.
Speaker 3: Remember thinking, wow, how to get drunk on the bloody
Speaker 3: first job out of town?
Speaker 1: So how did you find your way in the TV world.
Speaker 3: Then the editor of that particular group of magazines was
Speaker 3: made the head of publicity Channel ten, and even though
Speaker 3: he had had to sack me, he did ring at
Speaker 3: the magazine.
Speaker 2: He did ring me. I think he knew I was.
Speaker 3: I think he just knew I was a decent person
Speaker 3: and I was trying very hard. So he said, look,
Speaker 3: would you like to come and join me in the
Speaker 3: publicity department. He was taking a couple of people with him,
Speaker 3: and I thought, yes, of course, I've never been to
Speaker 3: a television station in my life. And of course it
Speaker 3: wasn't good at publicity either. Just I was a storyteller.
Speaker 3: I was a news storyteller, and so he was the
Speaker 3: one that thought, I can't sack her again.
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's what he was thinking.
Speaker 3: He spoke to Tom Barnett, who was the news director
Speaker 3: of the time, and Tom came up and declared that
Speaker 3: there was probably a position in the newsroom and I
Speaker 3: had great.
Speaker 1: Pins, that's from your running crew.
Speaker 2: And of course I can understand why he said.
Speaker 1: That run up and that was perfectly that was perfectly
Speaker 1: acceptable in those days.
Speaker 2: It was perfectly legitimate. Yes, it was.
Speaker 1: Well, you couldn't have night could if they said you
Speaker 1: had good pins? Well let's try.
Speaker 3: You know, you and I can laugh about this, but
Speaker 3: you know in certain circles you can't laugh. You've got
Speaker 3: you've got to say how terrible.
Speaker 1: That was inappropriate?
Speaker 3: Red flag anyway, back then, I didn't blink. I just
Speaker 3: said my pins and are coming to the newsroom.
Speaker 2: So we did.
Speaker 3: Don I went and I learned the art of broadcast
Speaker 3: television done there, and that was a pretty pretty quick
Speaker 3: learning experience as well. But it was great, and there's
Speaker 3: some fabulous people there who really helped me understand.
Speaker 1: And were encouraging you and guiding you.
Speaker 2: Totally get out of that purple with Frock. That's really ugly.
Speaker 3: I mean, I learned that was the confronting bit was,
Speaker 3: oh no, I've got to be on the telly, and
Speaker 3: you know, I hadn't perfected the art of looking good
Speaker 3: in any shape of the imaginery.
Speaker 1: And like when you're in front of the camera, like
Speaker 1: you're critiqued on everything you do, how you speak, how
Speaker 1: you pronounce a word, how you look, and more so
Speaker 1: for a female than a male, how do you look?
Speaker 2: You have exhausting, isn't it? How did you go?
Speaker 1: Well? My head never helped, but I like your hair, Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. But yeah, you've got to You've got to
Speaker 1: be robust. And I don't think people understand the pressure
Speaker 1: of a live cross. Like if you do a live
Speaker 1: cross and you're standing there, there's all this noise in
Speaker 1: the background. You know you're going to be beamed in
Speaker 1: live and you want to get one go. You've got
Speaker 1: the piece in your ear that you can't hardly hear
Speaker 1: what's been said, or it's coming in a second late,
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. So did you have any
Speaker 1: bad experiences with your in front of the camera.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure I had a zillion, But ultimately I've
Speaker 3: got to try and remember if there was any at
Speaker 3: Channel Tan. Ultimately, no, I just had to get mine.
Speaker 2: Shit together.
Speaker 1: You and your pins me and my pins.
Speaker 2: No, I just had to I just had to learn.
Speaker 3: I just had to pick my game up and work out,
Speaker 3: watch others and see see where I was going wrong.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's important to see your own
Speaker 3: work and go whatever I can improve on that. So I,
Speaker 3: you know, I got I got through, but then I
Speaker 3: got poached to go to Channel nine.
Speaker 1: Look at you you're on because of your pins. Again.
Speaker 3: No, I came on a phone call, so I don't
Speaker 3: think anyone did see what pins at that point.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, and Channel nine.
Speaker 3: Of course, when I walked in, I knew this was like,
Speaker 3: oh because over ten they were having a great.
Speaker 1: Time because ten was well I won't say what's a
Speaker 1: big deal and what's not, but ten back in that
Speaker 1: time when you were at ten, they are a pretty
Speaker 1: big deal TV.
Speaker 2: Well they were.
Speaker 3: But though they had a lot of young new people,
Speaker 3: it was you know, the first time they had a
Speaker 3: double head news. Katrina Lee was the female reader, and
Speaker 3: it just it just had an energy and a vibe
Speaker 3: which was you know, it had a fair bit of spirit.
Speaker 3: But when I arrived at nine, it was like, okay,
Speaker 3: this is very serious business. Well you notice a different
Speaker 3: totally totally, totally, and not a lot of reporters, you know,
Speaker 3: but those entrenched serious being around for a long time
Speaker 3: reports and Brian Henderson, you.
Speaker 2: Know Hendos sitting there. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3: And that's when I thought, Okay, I've got to get
Speaker 3: into get into serious mode.
Speaker 1: And did you really have to apply yourself to it?
Speaker 1: Like did you like gome critique practice.
Speaker 3: I'm just no, I wasn't that kind of person where
Speaker 3: I practiced anything. But I realized, Okay, I've got to
Speaker 3: I've got to take I've got to step up. I've
Speaker 3: got to just yeah, I've got to exactly. I can't
Speaker 3: just think that's good enough or just feel lucky I
Speaker 3: got through. I'm now going to have to make it
Speaker 3: that I always will get through and I'm going to
Speaker 3: make lift my game to that point where it's not
Speaker 3: an issue sending me anywhere.
Speaker 2: But I had to, you know, I had to get
Speaker 2: I had to get on my game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I can imagine that the pressure because it's
Speaker 1: a spectacular fall. The more you've become known, it's a
Speaker 1: big fall, and if you're not in the good books,
Speaker 1: you're out of the industry very quickly.
Speaker 3: Because it's still it was a man's world. And still
Speaker 3: I was the only woman. In fact, I was replacing
Speaker 3: the only woman had been there, so I you know,
Speaker 3: it still was you know, I was still a.
Speaker 2: Bit of a token. I could tell. You could tell
Speaker 2: the place is not full of women at all.
Speaker 3: So if I'm the only one here, all right, why
Speaker 3: you know, you figure it out. But you don't want
Speaker 3: to just be, you know, the token woman. You do
Speaker 3: want to so that you're you're worthwhile, you have a
Speaker 3: reason to be here, your value.
Speaker 1: You're right, absolutely, Yeah, And when did you get offered
Speaker 1: to read the news?
Speaker 3: That was oh quite yeah, down the further down the track,
Speaker 3: at nine, after I'd been there for a couple of years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they asked me to read the news, which was
Speaker 2: just like what.
Speaker 3: I'd never never aspired to read the news, you know,
Speaker 3: it was like, oh my god. Anyway, and by that time,
Speaker 3: we were in a new news room and everybody was
Speaker 3: sitting around you, you know, and you're at a desk
Speaker 3: in the middle of them, and.
Speaker 1: You're nowhere the high Oh oh my god.
Speaker 2: Truly I think I could have had a stroke.
Speaker 1: I understand you would be nervous news. You don't hardly
Speaker 1: see anyone stuff up on the news and if they
Speaker 1: if they do, they've been there for twenty years and
Speaker 1: you forgive them.
Speaker 3: But no, you're not allowed to know. You've got to
Speaker 3: be worded perfect basically. But back then also the auto
Speaker 3: cures paper and Sylvia was feeding it through this machine
Speaker 3: and so on the screen up comes the words on
Speaker 3: the paper that she's feeding through. But then it would
Speaker 3: get stuck in her hand would just come up on
Speaker 3: the screen and that would be all you could see
Speaker 3: and you'd be like, oh, when that happened, that was
Speaker 3: the end.
Speaker 2: That was the end.
Speaker 1: Did you like in reading the news, did you keep
Speaker 1: yourself aware of what you were reporting on or were
Speaker 1: you basically just reading off the or their cuds.
Speaker 3: Well, at that stage, I was just having to sort
Speaker 3: of get the autoque sorted. And it was so we
Speaker 3: had a morning news eleven am news, but we also
Speaker 3: had an evening news and that could and we would
Speaker 3: get a call to say, the news tonight will be
Speaker 3: two minutes long and it'll be at ten past ten,
Speaker 3: and be like, or the news to night beyond nine
Speaker 3: thirty and you need to fill up forty minutes.
Speaker 2: And there was just the two of us were like, oh,
Speaker 2: my God, what are we going to talk?
Speaker 3: No, while we would drag up the news from the
Speaker 3: six pm and you know, revoice a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 3: But it was a great again, a great learning experience,
Speaker 3: and you know, we just made the best of it.
Speaker 3: But yes, then I know broadcasting became something I understood better.
Speaker 1: So you're still carving, carving your way through the career
Speaker 1: and these are all what you consider a step in
Speaker 1: the right direction on what you wanted to achieve or
Speaker 1: were you just having a look at the whole.
Speaker 3: I didn't have a game plan. I just didn't have
Speaker 3: a game plan at all. I was still coming from
Speaker 3: a place of.
Speaker 1: Wow, how did I find myself here?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh really because again that confidence I didn't have,
Speaker 3: you know, a massive amount of confidence.
Speaker 2: So I was always a.
Speaker 3: Bit surprised and I'd be like, oh, and then I think, yes,
Speaker 3: I can't say no, I should say yes to this.
Speaker 3: And I knew I was taking a.
Speaker 1: Risk, okay, but you had the courage to take that risk.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: I always felt like I didn't want to regret saying no,
Speaker 3: So I was taking the risks. So I was prepared
Speaker 3: to do that. And then and it happened with the
Speaker 3: Today Show as well, because I was asked to fill in.
Speaker 1: Well, the Today Show takes at another level, doesn't if
Speaker 1: you're the and you hosted the Today Show for ten years?
Speaker 3: I did, I did, but I came in filling in
Speaker 3: for some for patrise Newall, who was the co host
Speaker 3: at that time with Steve Libbin, and I would fill in.
Speaker 3: But you know what, I sat in that seat and
Speaker 3: felt immediately.
Speaker 2: Comfortable, felt right for I couldn't. I was shocked actually quickly.
Speaker 2: I don't know why.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was aware, you know that I had
Speaker 3: to sort of, you know, bring my A game to
Speaker 3: that as well, but I don't know that it was
Speaker 3: at that time of my life.
Speaker 2: It just suited me. The hours, didn't.
Speaker 1: What type of wake up call? What was the alarm?
Speaker 3: Oh? Was it like three in the morning or something?
Speaker 3: And poor old Geraldine from the reception at nine, her
Speaker 3: job was to back in the day. I don't think
Speaker 3: they do that now, would ring you morning? Liz?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh god, that was just the because I was not
Speaker 3: good at going to bed. You know, you want the
Speaker 3: sun to go down, don't you?
Speaker 2: Mostly so? But you know, I love the Today Show.
Speaker 2: But of course the Today Show is.
Speaker 3: Really where eyes really came to understand me. I had
Speaker 3: a few marriages in that time I was doing this
Speaker 3: live television. I had a Kerry Packer, somebody I came
Speaker 3: to know, Sam Chisholm, who was my god. I was
Speaker 3: now in this world and I didn't have a manager
Speaker 3: or anything like that. We didn't have managers, and I
Speaker 3: had to fight for a quality, you know, in how
Speaker 3: we were presented on the show, but also pay I
Speaker 3: never got a quality, but I had to fight for
Speaker 3: a pay rise and stuff like that. And I think
Speaker 3: that that was good for me.
Speaker 1: Well, it would certainly toughen you up.
Speaker 2: Sure did it? Sure did?
Speaker 1: How did how did your life from a personal point
Speaker 1: of view change when you became such a public figure,
Speaker 1: because you really, if you're hosting the Today Show and
Speaker 1: the way that Today Show ran, how did that impact
Speaker 1: on you?
Speaker 3: Well, as we see today, the Today's Show and those
Speaker 3: breakfast shows have people. You're there every day pretty much,
Speaker 3: so you become very much front and center in this
Speaker 3: world of well, we don't have royalty or anything like that,
Speaker 3: so we're about the only celebrities. Then it particularly you
Speaker 3: know that you're the person we wake up to do
Speaker 3: you know? People used to bet on what color I
Speaker 3: would wear. I've been finding these people are coming up
Speaker 3: to you. You listen, you know, do you know what Back
Speaker 3: in the day, we used to have betting at work
Speaker 3: about what color you're going to turn up?
Speaker 1: Make sure given you a tip, you might have made
Speaker 1: a bit of money.
Speaker 2: I might have.
Speaker 3: But first of all, I had to come to terms
Speaker 3: with being so public. I didn't appreciate how public that
Speaker 3: would be. Secondly, I wasn't the smartest person because my
Speaker 3: public my private life was now going to be very public.
Speaker 3: I really should have got a better grip on that.
Speaker 3: And just generally who you are. That's an internal conversation
Speaker 3: you begin to have, Who am I? I'm out there?
Speaker 3: Well the media, whoever's decided to have a go. I
Speaker 3: was having a go, and I'm I'm now questioning, Am
Speaker 3: I that bad?
Speaker 2: Is that really how I'm seeing? Am I really awful?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And it's a really terrible time to have.
Speaker 3: To And I was thirty or we went from thirty
Speaker 3: to forty years of age in that period, and I
Speaker 3: just and I took a few tumbles in terms of personally,
Speaker 3: I just you know, I had a couple of marriage breakdowns,
Speaker 3: and that was what was all that was being discussed.
Speaker 3: Plus I had found myself with a stalker, so everything
Speaker 3: was out of.
Speaker 2: Kilter there for a while. But the constant was my job.
Speaker 3: The thing that anchored me was getting up with that
Speaker 3: hideous hour and turning up and being with people who
Speaker 3: were very supportive, and Steve Living was like the most
Speaker 3: stable man in.
Speaker 2: My life other than my dad, you know.
Speaker 3: But yeah, suddenly suddenly you're constantly aware of yourself. And
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of myself quite like I had been before,
Speaker 3: and everything about me was up for grabs.
Speaker 1: So you had to become comfortable within yourself when I.
Speaker 2: Had to find it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to.
Speaker 3: I had to, and my parents played a big role
Speaker 3: in that. A couple of times when I just thought, Wow,
Speaker 3: I'm falling down at Krebs.
Speaker 1: Here imposter syndrome, did that sort of how have I
Speaker 1: got to this point? I shouldn't be here and I'm
Speaker 1: going to be discovered.
Speaker 3: I don't you have a little everybody has a little
Speaker 3: bit of that, And I didn't think about it like that.
Speaker 3: I just felt like, oh, I don't want to embarrass
Speaker 3: myself or fail. But of course I think anybody. Well,
Speaker 3: I think normal people have moments where they go hope,
Speaker 3: I don't rule this moment, So I think that's common.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was. It was.
Speaker 3: A time when I had to smarten up again on
Speaker 3: a personal front as well as on a job front,
Speaker 3: and to have a pretty strong conversation with myself about
Speaker 3: who I am, who I want to be, and how
Speaker 3: I was going to negotiate this was if I was
Speaker 3: going to stay in it, how I was going to
Speaker 3: negotiate it. So you know what I basically everybody thinks
Speaker 3: it's hysterical, but it's not. I thought I'm going to disappear,
Speaker 3: so I joined sixty minutes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's good. If you hide, hide out in
Speaker 1: the open, no one will find you.
Speaker 3: No. But what it meant was I was not around
Speaker 3: as much. I was just not that daily person on
Speaker 3: the news or on the Today shy. I was not
Speaker 3: at home being found by paparazzi or anybody else.
Speaker 2: I was able. No one knew where I was. And
Speaker 2: you just take yourself off the dial. And it worked.
Speaker 1: Okay, it doesn't.
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop headlines.
Speaker 3: I know that, but that daily grind, people knocking on
Speaker 3: my neighbor's door, what's happening?
Speaker 1: My take on morning TV, it's almost like we own you,
Speaker 1: Like if you get up and the TV's on, you're
Speaker 1: getting yeah, well I see you every day. It's so
Speaker 1: I can understand.
Speaker 3: It's the view of the viewers of AR views are
Speaker 3: usually fantastic, although you'll get those who you constantly tell
Speaker 3: you how terrible you are. But but it's really that
Speaker 3: which goes with it, that public you know, outing of
Speaker 3: you are on so many levels, like you, you look
Speaker 3: terrible today.
Speaker 1: You make a mistake, it'll be on the front pine you.
Speaker 3: Know, another marriage over or whatever. It's as a human being,
Speaker 3: it takes its ta and.
Speaker 1: Like going through those relationship separations or a marriage, it's
Speaker 1: painful enough. But if it's out in public, and then jeez,
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is awful.
Speaker 3: And I'm very sympathetic to anybody who finds themselves in
Speaker 3: that position because I've been there and I know it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You can't go knock on everybody's door and
Speaker 3: say it's not true or whatever. You just have to
Speaker 3: suck it up.
Speaker 1: You have to. You're tough enough to you'd have to.
Speaker 1: So with sixty minutes, how did that offer? And again,
Speaker 1: I say, I'm jealous because it's I reckon, it's it
Speaker 1: should be a great job.
Speaker 2: You should be just because actually, if I was to
Speaker 2: tell the absolute truth.
Speaker 1: Absolutely in fact, too many people God yeah, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think the secrets how people go?
Speaker 1: That's cool? Yeah, how did that come about?
Speaker 3: Literally, Peter Mekin, who was the head of music courrent affairs,
Speaker 3: rang me and said would you like to join sixty
Speaker 3: minutes Tracy Kuro, who is the reporter at the time,
Speaker 3: was leaving, and I thought, can I do that? So
Speaker 3: there's your slight imposter syndrome as I had that member.
Speaker 1: Of because you could be taking on the head of
Speaker 1: government or also any story.
Speaker 3: Well, I had reviewed this program so and I knew that,
Speaker 3: you know, even though the toenation was fabulous at teaching
Speaker 3: you how to get to the core of the subject
Speaker 3: in four quick questions or whatever, you because you had
Speaker 3: to and it's live and there's no turning back. I
Speaker 3: knew that I was stepping into a place that I
Speaker 3: really would have to dig deep into conversations and know
Speaker 3: and really know my stuff and all that. But I
Speaker 3: did see it as it came for me at the
Speaker 3: right time. Ten years was enough. But also I felt
Speaker 3: like I just couldn't. I'd been divorced, and I just
Speaker 3: thought it's time to take this next risk in life, all.
Speaker 1: Right, and well another risk, Well it is a risk
Speaker 1: risk challenge, but yeah, because you could go on there
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason it just didn't click.
Speaker 2: And it does happen.
Speaker 3: You know, some people come to sixty minutes and not
Speaker 3: so much reporters as ORTHO. You know that can happen.
Speaker 3: But because it's a it's an ecosystem. You know, there's
Speaker 3: a you know, producers and cameramen and some people and
Speaker 3: what was required of us back then it's changed now,
Speaker 3: I have to say, because COVID changed everything. But we
Speaker 3: would be out there forever and you'd be traveling with
Speaker 3: three other people and you just have to make that work.
Speaker 3: So and it didn't always didn't suit everybody.
Speaker 1: And I think there's like there's a fun times, but
Speaker 1: in the times, I've been a way of sixty minutes
Speaker 1: work hard. Like it's yeah, I was very impressed, not surprised.
Speaker 1: But now we're going to get this shot. There will
Speaker 1: be another two hours. Yeah, let's do it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I see everyone really roll their sleeves up and get
Speaker 1: into it.
Speaker 3: People are al who's surprised at how long it takes
Speaker 3: to shoot a story, and it is because you're going
Speaker 3: to all that trouble to get some really interesting pictures
Speaker 3: and angles, and you know, there's a lot of black
Speaker 3: holes to fill. But there is a lot of behind
Speaker 3: the scenes work that takes place. So it is a
Speaker 3: lot of hard work. When I was there, I think
Speaker 3: we were blessed. We had a very good budget. That
Speaker 3: wasn't an issue.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I heard people win about wing about in
Speaker 1: the old days.
Speaker 3: Well, and we should never talk about the old days
Speaker 3: because it's like it's hurtful. But no, in my day
Speaker 3: it was fantastic. But I think even today, you know,
Speaker 3: it's tough. Like all media businesses, it's not so you know,
Speaker 3: business class trouble is not on the agenda. But we
Speaker 3: could go anywhere in the world, but we always had
Speaker 3: to come back with the story.
Speaker 2: But you know, there were some pretty shitty places were.
Speaker 1: To Yeah, there was I was looking and people to
Speaker 1: get a sense of the amount of travel you do.
Speaker 3: Oh, I could be away easily six weeks at time
Speaker 3: and go around the world. You know, a couple of
Speaker 3: times and change producers a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Well I'm just and this again from your book, and
Speaker 1: this is talking about one particular time, just one night.
Speaker 1: Itinery had me covering the cloning of Dolly the Sheep
Speaker 1: in Scotland on the twenty sixth of March, and then
Speaker 1: traveling to London, New York, and Los Angeles, eventually landing
Speaker 1: in Miami, where, slightly hungover and somewhat starstruck, I interviewed
Speaker 1: the BG's and loved them. That's in brackets. You must
Speaker 1: have really loved them. On the eighth of April, I
Speaker 1: reported in Bogatar, Emerald Mine on the eleventh of April,
Speaker 1: then Afghanistan on Anzac Day. On the fifth of mayl
Speaker 1: I was in Pakistan. Three days later. I was sitting
Speaker 1: down for lunch one of my favorite beast side restaurants
Speaker 1: in Sydney. That's crazy travel.
Speaker 3: It was, it was, and you know it wasn't as
Speaker 3: I was. I kept a diary. I'm so glad I did.
Speaker 3: I don't know why I did.
Speaker 2: You know why I did? I do know. I was
Speaker 2: trying to keep up with what I had to be doing.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, so what am I doing? Now? I'm
Speaker 2: going to wear. That's why I kept the diary. But
Speaker 2: I would write.
Speaker 3: Things on the way because it just kept me vaguely entertained.
Speaker 3: But yeah, even when I went through my own diaries
Speaker 3: again over those twenty five years, I do think, what
Speaker 3: the hell I do recall it being, But I was
Speaker 3: excited and exhilarated by it at that time, so I
Speaker 3: didn't mind. And I think at the end of one trip,
Speaker 3: I arrived home from around the world and changed bags,
Speaker 3: got less clean unders in and went straight up to
Speaker 3: do Dolly done the next day.
Speaker 1: I think that was in the same same year You've
Speaker 1: traveled to Moscow. The interview the anty time, we're going
Speaker 1: to speak about the astronaut. I always wanted to be
Speaker 1: an astronaut because I couldn't be a sixty minutes report.
Speaker 1: Sounded pretty cool. To Kakistan and Beakistan, London, Sydney and
Speaker 1: off to Honduras. Yeah, crazy crazy travel. Yeah, let's because
Speaker 1: it is a true crime podcast. One of the stories
Speaker 1: that you talk about that you saw from start to
Speaker 1: finish was a Lindy Chamberlain case and from when you
Speaker 1: were reporting on the Today Show and then how it
Speaker 1: played out for people that don't know and I think
Speaker 1: most people would. Lindy Chamberlain had her baby Asaria, which
Speaker 1: now we accept was taken by a dingo, but she
Speaker 1: was convicted of the murder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was.
Speaker 3: She and her family were camping at Ularu and adingo
Speaker 3: literally came into the tent and took baby Azaria, who
Speaker 3: was like six weeks old at the time. And it
Speaker 3: was one of those stories that that divided a nation.
Speaker 1: Everyone had an opinion.
Speaker 3: There was a Hollywood film on it, Meryl Street played
Speaker 3: Lindy Chamberlin. It was one of those stories that divided journalists.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it divided police, but the community generally. It
Speaker 3: really really it really, You're right, everybody had an opinion.
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on that, because the media played a
Speaker 1: big part in that, And what's your take.
Speaker 3: On Well, my take on that is similar to Johan Lee's. Yeah,
Speaker 3: a very similar story where her boyfriend Peter Falconio at
Speaker 3: the time were not quite backpacking because they were in
Speaker 3: a van, a Comby van, but they were in Australia
Speaker 3: from the UK having a year of working and traveling
Speaker 3: around and they were traveling up the Stuart Highway I
Speaker 3: think it was, and out of Alice towards Darwin, and
Speaker 3: a car came up behind them it was dark and
Speaker 3: motioned to them to pull over, and they were of
Speaker 3: the opinion that something was wrong with the car and
Speaker 3: that's why they pulled over.
Speaker 1: That was a horrible, horrible case. But I know there
Speaker 1: was a lot of people had opinions about her and
Speaker 1: of them because of the way she reacted, all the perception.
Speaker 3: Of the way she Yeah, I think there were a
Speaker 3: couple of things. And I think Peter's never been found.
Speaker 3: His body has never been found, and you can if
Speaker 3: you go out there, you can tell why. Wow, if
Speaker 3: you found him, it would be amazing.
Speaker 2: But also.
Speaker 3: It was I think part of how she reacted, which
Speaker 3: is like Lindy Chamberlain, it didn't fit the mold or
Speaker 3: the expectation of somebody who would be in this terrible
Speaker 3: situation grieving with Lindy Chamberlain. I happened to be at
Speaker 3: Channel ten and I remember hearing over the radio this
Speaker 3: report while I was in the office about I didn't
Speaker 3: go had taken this baby, And I remember thinking, wow, gosh,
Speaker 3: because back then we'd never thought it didn't go or
Speaker 3: do such a thing, or could could do such a thing,
Speaker 3: and I think when I was at Channel nine when
Speaker 3: it was reported again and the Today's Show in sixty minutes,
Speaker 3: it is one of those stories which if if it
Speaker 3: gets into people's head early enough, they have trouble shaking
Speaker 3: the fact they might have got it wrong, and the
Speaker 3: media has a bit of trouble shaking it might have
Speaker 3: got it wrong too, you know. I think we can
Speaker 3: find it hard sometimes to say, oh, maybe we got
Speaker 3: that totally wrong, but it was just and maybe kept
Speaker 3: selling well, I don't know the story if you kept
Speaker 3: countering the story, but I just I think it wasn't
Speaker 3: assisted by some poor policing worker, forensic work. All those
Speaker 3: sorts of things obviously played into it. It's out back
Speaker 3: Australia at the time, you know, and I feel very sorry,
Speaker 3: but I think that Lindy and Michael at the time.
Speaker 2: Were religious people. Whether that played into it, It just
Speaker 2: we were judgmental back then about a lot of things
Speaker 2: for a lot of not so good reasons, and I
Speaker 2: think that played into this narrative of it just couldn't
Speaker 2: be possible that a dingo did this and somehow rather,
Speaker 2: you know, these are peculiar people and.
Speaker 3: Something obviously went you know awry and we'll say I,
Speaker 3: Dingo did this. You know, I had a High Court
Speaker 3: judge say to me, he's passed away now that he
Speaker 3: believed there were questions about that case, not in a
Speaker 3: good way, And I thought, wow, I couldn't figure.
Speaker 2: He couldn't quite tell me why either, just quietly.
Speaker 3: So I think we can get a prejudicial quite early
Speaker 3: in the piece.
Speaker 1: I think because everyone had an opinion and it was
Speaker 1: a snippet that could be a headline or that when
Speaker 1: people hang on to that piece of information. What with
Speaker 1: Joanne Lee's what was that about? Because I never understood
Speaker 1: why people were.
Speaker 3: So well again, I think I think there was this
Speaker 3: suggest you know, it's a bit like Linda Tambler as well.
Speaker 3: You know, she's not behaving like she's straw together and
Speaker 3: Joanne and lies is not behaving like she's supposed to
Speaker 3: now that she's almost lost her life as.
Speaker 1: Well, abducted in the middle of the desert.
Speaker 3: And to be honest, when I sat down with her,
Speaker 3: that woman is tortured by the fact that still today
Speaker 3: people don't believe that she didn't have something to do
Speaker 3: with Peter's disappearance. I mean, it's incredible, but I think
Speaker 3: it really it gets a hold very quickly, and it
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that there shouldn't be counter stories if you've
Speaker 3: got evidence or if you've got questions. I don't think
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to go against the grain. I think
Speaker 3: you can, but I think you've got to have a
Speaker 3: good reason to do it. But it never gave never
Speaker 3: let up. It just never let up. And I think
Speaker 3: I believe that that's where the media has played a
Speaker 3: detrimental role actually in both cases, where it's just compounded
Speaker 3: negativity for reasons I've not been convinced that the evidence
Speaker 3: has been there to say that any of these people
Speaker 3: are guilty of anything.
Speaker 2: Other than those who have been Don't Go and Bradley murder.
Speaker 1: And I think that you talk about the perception of
Speaker 1: how someone should react if they are in those situations,
Speaker 1: and that's from a detectives point of view, that was
Speaker 1: something we're always careful of because you don't know how
Speaker 1: people are going to react in the most traumatic situation
Speaker 1: you could find yourself in. And I think there's a
Speaker 1: bit of a perception with like a female they should
Speaker 1: be collapsed and crying because well, maybe they're hurting on
Speaker 1: the inside, but they're trying to be brave for support
Speaker 1: the others around them. So yeah, I found it interesting
Speaker 1: on that and that you linked it to the joe
Speaker 1: An Lee's one, because I couldn't get that because I
Speaker 1: thought she was reacting perfectly normal in a situation and
Speaker 1: like that, like.
Speaker 3: It's I think she was keeping herself away. I don't
Speaker 3: know whether she knew how to deal with it, and
Speaker 3: she was embarrassed because there was this, you know, a
Speaker 3: little piece of gossip that got out that she'd had
Speaker 3: an affair with somebody when she was in Sydney, you know,
Speaker 3: at the bar that she was working out or whatever.
Speaker 3: So it just it just I think it's the worst
Speaker 3: possible scenario for her. You know, she's felt the need
Speaker 3: to change everything about herself to sort of escape it.
Speaker 3: But in her heart, you know, she's she was for
Speaker 3: a very long time a broken moment.
Speaker 1: And that's a sense that you got totally.
Speaker 3: I totally got that. You know, she didn't trust the
Speaker 3: media at all. I sat down with her and I said, ultimately, Joanne,
Speaker 3: it's up to you how you do this, but it's
Speaker 3: okay to be vulnerable, because I think that's probably I
Speaker 3: know you are. I can see you are, but I'm
Speaker 3: not going to make a fool of you. I just
Speaker 3: want to hear from you, and I want you to
Speaker 3: tell me what it feels like from the heart. And
Speaker 3: I think she did. But I did change everybody's mind.
Speaker 3: I don't there to change people's minds anyway.
Speaker 1: It's so hard I and you know, we'll probably get
Speaker 1: this editor or legal But the William Tyill case, now
Speaker 1: I'm obviously very close to that. But what's been portrayed
Speaker 1: in the media in regards to the foster mother that
Speaker 1: we can't name for legal reasons. I just think it's
Speaker 1: been disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. And I know the investigation obviously,
Speaker 1: and I've watched that. I say publicly to people, I
Speaker 1: think it's like the Lindy Chamberlain case, like everyone's got
Speaker 1: an opinion. There's not a day I don't walk the
Speaker 1: street and someone come up and offer, oh, she must
Speaker 1: have done it. Why because some media headline or something
Speaker 1: that the police have leaked to the media. And I
Speaker 1: just think it's been so cruel watching watching that play out.
Speaker 3: I've got to be honest and say that is one
Speaker 3: of the aspects of the business. I'm in which you
Speaker 3: have to be very careful about uh. And we've learned
Speaker 3: that the hard way sometimes where we thought it looks
Speaker 3: a bit suss, only to find we were the ones
Speaker 3: who had it totally wrong. I recently did a story
Speaker 3: with Lauren's Onfrelo. Her husband, Jocksonfrelo, died and it's never
Speaker 3: been revealed how he died or why he died. He
Speaker 3: was found in a hotel in Melbourne. He was the
Speaker 3: master chef and he was about to start publicity for
Speaker 3: his new series, and the coroner determined it was not
Speaker 3: in the public interest for anyone to know why or how.
Speaker 3: And she didn't want to say and and there was
Speaker 3: there was a slap up over she had to tell people,
Speaker 3: and it was like, how unkind is that?
Speaker 2: Does she have to do it?
Speaker 3: It clearly is a big issue you for her, And
Speaker 3: it was like, Wow, people are so so feel they're
Speaker 3: entitled and they take on a position and they will
Speaker 3: judge a human being at the worst time.
Speaker 2: We are making.
Speaker 3: Judgments about people who are probably in the worst place
Speaker 3: they've ever been in their life. And it's really we
Speaker 3: have to be really careful about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I see like or I hear not just
Speaker 1: see I'm hearing like in Bill informed comments based on
Speaker 1: what I'm young with. The evidence doesn't support that, the
Speaker 1: facts don't support that, but that sort of gets lost
Speaker 1: in the type of public opinion. But that's probably the
Speaker 1: responsibility you have as a journalist.
Speaker 2: Oh. I think as a journalist we do.
Speaker 3: And I you know, that's when you have to really
Speaker 3: probably hang on to the facts, because that's when you
Speaker 3: could if you stray beyond the facts in cases like this,
Speaker 3: of the cases we've discussed, that's when you can get
Speaker 3: yourself into deep trouble. And I think surmising is was
Speaker 3: you just can't and I think I think we have
Speaker 3: a responsibility to be diligent on that front.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, look, we might take a break in the
Speaker 1: part one. When we come back, will dive more into
Speaker 1: the World's Best Job as sixty Minutes journalists and some
Speaker 1: of the stories that you've covered there, which is quite
Speaker 1: fascinating looking at some of the crimes that you've covered,
Speaker 1: natural disasters, traveling war zones, all sorts of things. I
Speaker 1: don't know where the conversation is going to go, but
Speaker 1: I'm also going to talk about the death of your
Speaker 1: father because I know that was a very I think
Speaker 1: you've described as the hardest story that you had to tell,
Speaker 1: and the lessons learned the importance of telling the story
Speaker 1: about that situation. So if we take a break and
Speaker 1: we'll be back, do I say, I'm Gary jubilin this
Speaker 1: is I catch Killers that you can can I say that?
Speaker 2: Why don't you like Lauren?
Speaker 1: I'm Gary Jubilan This says eye catch killers. We'll be
Speaker 1: back soon.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Thanks, please,