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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had a great chat with Liz Hayes. You probably

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Speaker 1: recognized Liz, after all, she's been a television reporter and

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Speaker 1: investigative journalist for more than forty years. In that time,

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Speaker 1: she's interviewed serial killers, track down pedophiles, and covered some

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Speaker 1: of the world's most notorious crimes. During Liz's journalism career,

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Speaker 1: she not only hosted The Today Show for a decade,

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Speaker 1: but also worked on the iconic sixty minutes program for

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Speaker 1: over twenty years. It's a position that's highly sought after

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Speaker 1: in the world of journalism. We spoke about a life

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Speaker 1: and the amazing experiences traveling the world reporting from war

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Speaker 1: zones to natural disasters. I also got the gossip on

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Speaker 1: celebrities she's interviewed. There is not much Liz hasn't seen

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Speaker 1: throughout her career. I work briefly with Liz as a

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Speaker 1: journalist and I always enjoyed her company, and today's chap

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Speaker 1: was no different. Liz, welcome to I catch killers.

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Speaker 2: Gosh am I killer.

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Speaker 1: We don't know yet. That's the start of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, that is the exciting bit, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: If I caution you, maybe you need to get your solicity.

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Speaker 1: But I not caution you at this stage, So it

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Speaker 1: feel free to just discuss whatever whatever. Thank you talking about?

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Speaker 1: Thank you?

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Speaker 2: I feel right?

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Speaker 1: Can I put up front? I'm nervous interview in you,

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Speaker 1: and I think I told you that the other day

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Speaker 1: when we're speaking. Then you said, why would I be nervous?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't understand why you would be nervous, because

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Speaker 3: you've faced off many a person who's been more threatening

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Speaker 3: than I.

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Speaker 1: Would have been well, we don't know. We'll find out.

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Speaker 2: I'm not one of your worries, I don't think.

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Speaker 1: But you are, Liz Hayes. And like from a journalist interviewer,

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Speaker 1: you've probably interviewed more people than I've locked up bad guys.

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Speaker 3: I haven't interviewed a lot of people, without a doubt.

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Speaker 3: I'm a bit shocked about it myself, but you know,

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Speaker 3: I've been doing it for well. When I left nine,

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Speaker 3: I had been there for forty four years, and I

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Speaker 3: was a journalist when I was seventeenth. I've just turned

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Speaker 3: sixty nine, so I'm fifty two years to it.

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Speaker 1: So that's a lot of experience. So that's why I'm intimidating.

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Speaker 1: And I'll put it up front too, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: bit jealous of you after reading your book and as

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Speaker 1: a sixty minutes journalist. That has always been I think

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Speaker 1: when I first saw George and Vegas driving along the

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Speaker 1: desert with a scarf around his neck on the g

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Speaker 1: such a showman he was, I thought, that looks like

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Speaker 1: a cool geek.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that was and it still is.

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Speaker 3: But it was a cool gig way back then, when

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Speaker 3: you know, not many people were doing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: You have. You've spent a long time in journalism. As

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Speaker 1: you said, what changes have you say in journalism over

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Speaker 1: the years? How does it change?

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Speaker 2: Do you mean?

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Speaker 3: In terms, nothing's changed about telling stories. That stays the

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Speaker 3: same as like policing and now you're telling stories. Stories

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Speaker 3: don't change. It's the way in which they're told, I think,

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Speaker 3: and how you get them out podcasts. We never heard

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Speaker 3: of computers in my day. We didn't have a computer.

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Speaker 3: I certainly didn't have a mobile phone.

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Speaker 2: I came.

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Speaker 3: I came from notebook and a pen and a typewriter manual,

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Speaker 3: not even a plug in typewriter. So just in terms

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Speaker 3: of how to deliver the stories, I think is about

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Speaker 3: the only thing that's changed. Of course, maybe the other

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Speaker 3: thing that's changed is that everybody's a bit of a

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Speaker 3: reporter now because if you've got a mobile phone or something,

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Speaker 3: you can record something and you can send that in

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Speaker 3: and suddenly you're reporting or you're capturing a moment. So

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Speaker 3: technologies I think the thing that's changed journalism. I don't

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Speaker 3: think fundamentally it's changed that. Beyond that, there's lots of fads.

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Speaker 3: Tabloid journalism has always been around. Maybe celebrities have captured

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Speaker 3: the market. I don't know why we're obsessed with celebrities,

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Speaker 3: but we are.

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Speaker 2: So that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, once upon a time you would

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Speaker 3: never see the news bulletin start with Kim Kardashian, but

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Speaker 3: it does, even though there might have been a bit

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Speaker 3: of a nasty train accident up the road, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean that sort of stuff startles me a bit.

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Speaker 3: But I think the fundamentals haven't changed. You know, lots

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Speaker 3: of stuff around the edges has changed, but telling stories

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Speaker 3: is still what it's all about.

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Speaker 2: Or in four or call into account. You know.

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Speaker 3: That's the good thing about journalism. I think, you know what,

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Speaker 3: it is all part of democracy.

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Speaker 1: I think it does play an important role, doesn't in

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Speaker 1: keeping people informed. We're going to get into how you

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Speaker 1: got into journalism, but before we do, because the podcast

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Speaker 1: is I Catch Killers, I've got to put a little

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Speaker 1: bit of crime in. Can you tell us about the

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Speaker 1: case that you recall or had an impact on you?

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Speaker 3: The killer of Zara Baker, you know, the Australian girl

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Speaker 3: who'd had had suffered cancer and she and her dad

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Speaker 3: went over to America because he found online Lisa Baker

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Speaker 3: and she stepmother.

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Speaker 2: She was the stepmother.

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Speaker 3: She'd had seven husbands and he didn't know that she

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Speaker 3: wasn't divorced. But anyway, she ended up killing this little

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Speaker 3: Zara Baker and chopping her into pieces. So I interviewed her,

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Speaker 3: and I swear to God, that woman, Wow, wow. I

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Speaker 3: did come away going wow, there's no part of her

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Speaker 3: that's taking responsibility for this. Even though she pleaded guilty,

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Speaker 3: she's not taking responsibility for this at all. She's wow.

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Speaker 1: Trying to explain her crime.

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Speaker 2: She didn't do it.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, she pleaded guilty, but that was so she

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Speaker 3: didn't go to get the death penalty in her She

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Speaker 3: just said, I didn't do it, and I feel really sorry,

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Speaker 3: and I'm so sad.

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Speaker 2: I really miss Sarah, you know. And it's just like wow,

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Speaker 2: the evidence.

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Speaker 3: Her own lawyer told her, the evidence is so overwhelming,

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Speaker 3: you know, you there's not a chance.

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Speaker 1: But I've met more than like the remember those type

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Speaker 1: that I didn't do it, did.

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Speaker 2: The fact and the whole thing, and nor Man.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's almost they get to the point

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Speaker 1: where they're convinced themselves, like they're just going to keep

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Speaker 1: this narrative going no matter what, Like you can produce

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Speaker 1: there's a failo of you killing the person.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, no without I was kind of shocked at

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Speaker 3: how hard she was going to go for I didn't

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Speaker 3: do this, Well who did?

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Speaker 1: Did you break it down? List?

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Speaker 2: I tell you what.

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Speaker 3: The guards who were there at the time, they went,

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Speaker 3: this is not gonna be a not like this is.

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Speaker 3: Do we have to bring in reinforcements because I was

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Speaker 3: I truly thought, I just can't listen to you do this,

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Speaker 3: you know. I came away from that going, well, I

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Speaker 3: just don't understand how anybody could do that to a

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Speaker 3: little girl, I guess. And killing is one thing, mutilating

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Speaker 3: cutting them up is another. Hiding the bits in the

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Speaker 3: bush all. I just can't get my head around that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And so, and I don't know why women do it.

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Speaker 3: We know and she did, but I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: always think that's a big step for a woman.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why. I say, well, it's.

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Speaker 1: A big step for anyone cutting the body up and

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Speaker 1: it's not easy, but yeah, it's I think there's a

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Speaker 1: misconception that women can't do those sort of violent crimes

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Speaker 1: because I've seen women do that. But the jury even

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Speaker 1: find it hard to convict someone of a murder if

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Speaker 1: it's a person that looks like their mum sitting there

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Speaker 1: in the in the dock. So it's an interesting take.

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Speaker 1: How have you stayed so grounded?

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Speaker 2: Oh blame my mom and dad.

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Speaker 3: And I've got four brothers who all tell me I'm

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Speaker 3: just best Ryan from Taru, and I am.

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Speaker 2: Look, I yeah, I look truly.

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Speaker 3: I think it's that fundamental upbringing lots of people around

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Speaker 3: me who are just everyday people. I have always viewed

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Speaker 3: myself as lucky, but I took opportunities. I was prepared

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Speaker 3: to take a risk, but ultimately I was not good

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Speaker 3: at buying into the bullshit because I was a bit

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Speaker 3: frightened it would go tips up anyway. You know, it'd

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Speaker 3: be like, oh God, if I blow my trumpet now

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Speaker 3: and out of my ars next week, it's just going

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Speaker 3: to be embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: So I've always had that in the back of my head.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be a bit careful.

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Speaker 1: And that you think that comes from your childhood, like

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Speaker 1: growing up you grew up in Tari.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is you know, just.

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Speaker 1: Topics till at the moment, Yeah, still very soggy.

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Speaker 3: Look, you know, I braxed my heart when I see

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Speaker 3: that now I'm a dairy farmer's daughter, and seeing those

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Speaker 3: cows wash down a river and turning up on a

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Speaker 3: beach is truly I can understand. You know, it's just

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Speaker 3: awful on so many levels. But also you know, so

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Speaker 3: many families, houses are gone and our old farm's gone

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Speaker 3: and all that. But country town upbringing is really interesting.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows who you are, and whilst that's good, it

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Speaker 3: can be bad. But ultimately it's just basic. You're in

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Speaker 3: a small community. Consequences are quick.

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Speaker 1: Well, you held accountable in the small community because every runs.

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Speaker 3: Busy, yeah, and you learn very quickly what community spirit's about,

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Speaker 3: the good, the bad.

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Speaker 2: You know, the gossip, but.

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Speaker 3: You know how powerful it can be to support your

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Speaker 3: neighbor and what it means to take care of another

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Speaker 3: human being. And judgment is always there, but sometimes being

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Speaker 3: quick to judges, you come to realize that that's painful,

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Speaker 3: and that's hurtful, and that and that's wrong, you know.

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Speaker 3: So it's a combination of things. But and we were

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Speaker 3: never allowed to be arrogant.

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Speaker 1: And it does hold you in good stead because the

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Speaker 1: positions you've had within the media, you could lose your found.

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Speaker 3: Lose absolutely and I think when I first particularly Channel nine,

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Speaker 3: I mean Sam Chism was very good at making you know,

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Speaker 3: he created this star state, if you want to put

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Speaker 3: it that way, and and you know it was I

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Speaker 3: could see how easy it was to get lost in

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Speaker 3: all course squad up in that that. Yeah, because and

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Speaker 3: for me it was like what you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is all crazy, but yeah, somehow in all of that,

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Speaker 3: I you know what a lot of my colleagues are

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Speaker 3: from country towns as well.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got to be a little bit rape us to,

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Speaker 1: especially with your work in sixty minutes some of the

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Speaker 1: places you go to.

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Speaker 3: You've got to be robust in media, let's pay that's true.

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Speaker 3: You know you've got to if you're if you're a

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Speaker 3: bit fragile, I don't like your chances. And you know

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Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily imbued with enormous confidence at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, you displayed your confidence very early in the confessional box.

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Speaker 1: And this is you know, I do my research before

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Speaker 1: we did my research. And well, I think you're eight

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Speaker 1: years old and following the Catholic faith and sent to

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Speaker 1: confessional and you got in there and told the price

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Speaker 1: that I have no sense I did.

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Speaker 3: And the story is that he happened to be my

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Speaker 3: mother's uncle, the priest. It's country towns. We're on an island,

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Speaker 3: one little church and the professional boxes in the corn

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Speaker 3: without a roof on it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just a little so everyone's listening.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's listening. And yeah, he shouted at me.

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Speaker 3: I said, you know, I had the audacity to suggest

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Speaker 3: I had no sense, because, as I said, I hadn't killed,

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Speaker 3: I hadn't stolen. I couldn't imagine this week was pretty

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Speaker 3: clear as far as I could see as an eight

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Speaker 3: year old. And he just shouted back at me, you

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Speaker 3: are fighting with your brothers because.

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Speaker 2: He had been staying with us. And of course he

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Speaker 2: was right, but I just thought, oh wow, an eight

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Speaker 2: year old people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I liked that you were staunched because I'd clapped

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Speaker 1: under the pressure. I've never been into a confessional box,

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Speaker 1: but Jesus, if the big fellows looking down at me,

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Speaker 1: I'd better tell the truth.

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Speaker 2: Well, I you know, all I know is that it

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Speaker 2: stayed with me. I have to tell you. I did

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Speaker 2: think how bloody harsh was that? You know, that was

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Speaker 2: a bit cruel.

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Speaker 3: That is cruel, and and you know, I just thought,

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Speaker 3: if that's what you do to an eight year old,

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Speaker 3: My goodness.

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Speaker 1: Another part of your childhood we could I could have

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Speaker 1: been in the viewing you here as a former gold

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Speaker 1: medal winner, winners athletics.

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Speaker 2: It was never going to happen. It was never going

256
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Speaker 2: to have my far.

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Speaker 3: The thought that your father thought, oh my dad was well, look,

258
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Speaker 3: I was a very good runner.

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Speaker 2: I was a sprinter. I wasn't a staye you know.

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Speaker 3: I was a sprinter and I was very good in

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Speaker 3: my little circle. And I wasn't winner, and I did

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Speaker 3: get to stay competitions, but I was out gunned totally

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Speaker 3: by those who turned up. I was barefoot, the Sola

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Speaker 3: bard of Oxley Island. But yeah, the others turned up

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Speaker 3: with you know, spiky shoes.

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Speaker 1: It was like, anyway, well what was it called Oxley? Well,

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Speaker 1: diminish that you're fast.

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Speaker 3: As I was a Guinea Guinea flash there for a while,

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Speaker 3: which was another little community up the road.

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Speaker 2: So I was a big deal.

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Speaker 3: But as I said, I think I lost my ticker

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Speaker 3: and I thought I was a bit lazy. Dad had

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Speaker 3: me running behind the car.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you're a sprint and not a stayer. But

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Speaker 1: Cliff Young chasing the cows around the Paddy.

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Speaker 3: I did look at him later in life and thought,

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Speaker 3: thank god I didn't continue, So.

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Speaker 2: I felt good that I might have changed direction.

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Speaker 1: You found that you're ostracized, probably too strong a word.

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Speaker 1: One of the schools you went to you didn't fit in.

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Speaker 1: They weren't your people. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, and there you go, very small community, but there

283
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Speaker 3: we were on this little island. And then we went

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Speaker 3: to town, which is where the town was where I

285
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Speaker 3: went to high school, because the island actually had its

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Speaker 3: own school.

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Speaker 2: I was one of three kids in my class.

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Speaker 1: So where'd you come in the classroom?

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Speaker 3: Did they always you know, one of the first three,

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Speaker 3: in the top three, the top three? So yes, no,

291
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 3: I experienced a little bit of what I guess now

292
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Speaker 3: would be considered bullying, you know, and it did set

293
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Speaker 3: me back. I did think I'm not good enough. It

294
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:55,120
Speaker 3: really rocked me, and my grades went down. But Mom

295
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,160
Speaker 3: and Dad had sort of picked up on something and

296
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Speaker 3: determined that I should change schools, and I hadn't spoken

297
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Speaker 3: to them about it because I was a bit embarrassed.

298
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Speaker 2: I felt a bit, you know, like I'm not good

299
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Speaker 2: enough and I can't let on.

300
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Speaker 1: Difficult time, isn't it.

301
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Speaker 3: It is a really difficult time as a kid, particularly

302
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Speaker 3: and you you know I'm a pleaser.

303
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you want to be I want to be

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Speaker 1: one of the cool kids.

305
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I want people to like me. You know.

306
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Speaker 2: So it's a really terrible time.

307
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Speaker 1: But you found your tribe at your next school.

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Speaker 3: I found the tribe that was just you know, kicking

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Speaker 3: around balls in the playground, just like me. You know,

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Speaker 3: I mean the good country stock, let's face it, and

311
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Speaker 3: no airs and graces.

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Speaker 2: It was, you know, this is my tribe.

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Speaker 1: So we've got Your career in athletics has not panned

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Speaker 1: out the way you'd hoped and upset the priests by

315
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Speaker 1: not being true in the confessional. You've changed schools you

316
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Speaker 1: leave school. Did you ever consider journalism? Was that something passion?

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Speaker 3: I was always fascinated because the my dad always loved

318
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Speaker 3: the news. The newspaper always arrived and you know, no

319
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 3: one was allowed to touch it until dad had finished with it.

320
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 3: And when the news and we got a television because

321
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Speaker 3: there was a champion sailor and won a television, and

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Speaker 3: I started to see news on television because that's what

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Speaker 3: we were allowed to watch. I never thought in a

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Speaker 3: million years I'd be doing that, but I was fascinated

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Speaker 3: by news, and of course in the dairy the radio

326
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 3: is on and the news comes on, so somehow rather

327
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Speaker 3: that might have filtered through, but I didn't anticipate I

328
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 3: could do it until you know, ultimately an ad was

329
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Speaker 3: in the paper.

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Speaker 1: And tell us about that.

331
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Speaker 3: You started well that near and that went well to

332
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Speaker 3: begin with. I applied for the job a cadet journalist

333
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 3: in at the local paper, at the Manning River Times,

334
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Speaker 3: and Kenny mack, the editor Kenny McDonald at the time,

335
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 3: basically said well, we're looking.

336
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Speaker 2: For a sports reporter and you know you're a woman,

337
00:16:58,760 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 2: you're a girl.

338
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Speaker 1: I think out what good runner you were.

339
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Speaker 3: I never even got that far because he said something like, well,

340
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 3: how do you reckon you go at the football match?

341
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 3: You know, because everyone knows that all the good interviews

342
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 3: take place in the dressing room and you know you

343
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Speaker 3: can't go in there. Well I could wait till they

344
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 3: came out, you know. Anyway, I didn't get it, and

345
00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 3: ultimately they hired a big burly roar.

346
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Speaker 2: I think he was from Sydney.

347
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Speaker 3: I think he was a great guy all that, and

348
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 3: I think everybody decided he couldn't spell or whatever, and

349
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 3: he and the editor determined it was a great idea

350
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Speaker 3: for him to really pursue his career elsewhere.

351
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Speaker 2: And so I got another call.

352
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 3: Well, actually, my mother ran into the editor walking down

353
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Speaker 3: the street as you do in the main street of

354
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Speaker 3: a country town, and said, do you know, do you

355
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Speaker 3: think your daughter might be interested in applying? So mom

356
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,679
Speaker 3: came home, and Mum was the star of our family.

357
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Speaker 3: She knew that that's probably what she would like, That's

358
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Speaker 3: probably what.

359
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Speaker 2: I would like and if I went.

360
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,840
Speaker 3: Of course, by then I was working for the Forestry Commission,

361
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 3: earning forty bucks a week and Dad was like, that's

362
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 3: a good government job. And Mom's like, well, you know,

363
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 3: journalism could be interesting. It was thirty dollars a week.

364
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 3: Dad was like, you're kidding me, Why.

365
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 1: Are you leaving the you could be working in the

366
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Speaker 1: Forestry Commission.

367
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 2: Oh, that's exactly where I could have been.

368
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 1: Doesn't that isn't that important? Like your mom? And you're

369
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 1: attributing your mom to pushing the kid to take a

370
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,359
Speaker 1: little risk. As a parent, you can think I don't

371
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,080
Speaker 1: want them to take a risk. But what a great

372
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 1: mum that encourage you.

373
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Speaker 2: Oh, I think if I was.

374
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Speaker 1: Because it's changed your whole life.

375
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Speaker 2: Oh totally.

376
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Speaker 3: My mother would speak to me under the hills hoist

377
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 3: and say, you don't have to do anything you don't

378
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 3: want to do it. I don't think you've got to

379
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 3: get married, don't think you've got to do She was

380
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 3: pretty on the ball about as a woman, as a

381
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,400
Speaker 3: young girl, how I should be allowed to see my life,

382
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 3: not to limit it. And she was pretty conservative. But

383
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 3: at the same time, her cues were coming from her

384
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 3: own life as far as I could see. You know,

385
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 3: she she too didn't want to stay at home. She

386
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,879
Speaker 3: wanted a job, she wanted to get out. She was

387
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 3: a personality, she had she had, you know, rains to

388
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 3: burn in many respects, and she wanted to use them.

389
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 3: And I think she didn't want that for me to be,

390
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, tired down necessarily. If I didn't want that.

391
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great advice. And yeah, shape your

392
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 1: shape your whole career.

393
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: Well, she loved me to open the gate.

394
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 3: And you know, in a country town, I did what

395
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 3: I probably would not have normally done.

396
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 2: I got out, you know, I mean, mind you, I did.

397
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: Marry quite a few times. We go into that.

398
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 2: I know, I just and she's just gone out with

399
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 2: a lot of people.

400
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 1: There's no judgment. We all make mistakes.

401
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 2: Well I don't even know.

402
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're not mistakes.

403
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 2: I don't even know.

404
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

405
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, in your book you talk at your first reporting

406
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 1: court experience was pretty funny.

407
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it was pretty awful.

408
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 3: It was day one off my condection and I was

409
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 3: told i'd be set up to the court. I'd never

410
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 3: been to the court, all, no idea what I knew,

411
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 3: nothing about police authorities, nothing, you know. It was totally intimidating.

412
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 3: And it was up the hill. Of course you've been there,

413
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 3: the Tari Court, which is the police station. The Catholic

414
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 3: churches were up beside it where I went to school,

415
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 3: where all those bullies were for a period of time.

416
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 3: And I just remember walking up that hill with my

417
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 3: notebook and pen, thinking, oh my god. But my editor

418
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,360
Speaker 3: before I walked out the door, just shouted, don't forget

419
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 3: to bow.

420
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 2: Was like what I couldn't.

421
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 3: I felt like, what, I can't turn around and say

422
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 3: what do you mean? Because I thought, oh, no, that

423
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 3: sounds I'm stupid. I can't so we don't have to

424
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 3: work that out. So I got up there, and of

425
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 3: course I was bowing hello, Hello, doing a lot of bowing,

426
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 3: bowing everybody, vowing to everybody, got inside, and finally the

427
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 3: clerk of the court came up and.

428
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,399
Speaker 2: Said, you stopped.

429
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you stopped that. We just a bow to

430
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 3: the magistrate when it comes through the door. And was like,

431
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 3: oh my god, no wonder. Everybody's having a little bit

432
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 3: of a chuckle.

433
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 1: And I could just imagine the young fresh journalists and

434
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: the old hardheads legal people around there, the cops, everyone

435
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: would have just been going.

436
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: First of all, I was a girl.

437
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,479
Speaker 3: I was, and I'm seventeen, so you can imagine I've

438
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 3: walked that is a man's world. Yeah, yeah, seventies, we're talking.

439
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 3: It was a man's world and there was no way

440
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 3: and I was. I was out of place basically as

441
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 3: far as they were concerned, except when they heard I

442
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 3: was from the local paper. And then I can see

443
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 3: them allmost thinking that's over. I thought her out later.

444
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: How did you get it with your stories? You enjoy it?

445
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 3: I did because it was a whole new world for me,

446
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 3: and I actually found some nice people who did tell me.

447
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: You know, you can check out the list beforehand and you.

448
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: Can see who.

449
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: For a month or two, Yes, exactly.

450
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: I got a few hints and I got to understand

451
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: court hearings, and I was fascinated by that. I do

452
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: recall being so fascinated that I was sitting there in

453
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 3: the children's court. Issue came up and the magistrate looked

454
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: at me and I'm looking back at him, and he says,

455
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: get out.

456
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: It's close court.

457
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, sorry, So they gave you

458
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 1: a bit of letitude.

459
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, No, they came to know me, and I

460
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: came to be nice to me. But yeah, But and

461
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 3: of course it's small. You know everybody. It's a local,

462
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: it's a local court. I mean, there are lots of

463
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: people driving through committing crime, which was always helpful. But

464
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 3: when it was a local you just actually in a

465
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 3: small community.

466
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 2: That's it.

467
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: When when they're driving fast up that highway and there's

468
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 3: a big accident, and there always was, you always were

469
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: worried that you would know who that was, that's and

470
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 3: in the court room you always felt, please God, don't

471
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:58,719
Speaker 3: make it one of my family.

472
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: What was that charge?

473
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: But so it didn't, and of course the inevitable did.

474
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: Happen, and you had to have the report on someone.

475
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I had to report.

476
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 3: I was sitting there and I did see this on

477
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: the list, this woman whose name just didn't register it

478
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 3: with me, I don't even and it was up on

479
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 3: fraud and I thought, and I was sitting there, I thought, okay,

480
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 3: and in came this woman. I went, oh, oh my god,

481
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: I'm her bridesmaid coming up in the.

482
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 2: Next door in the next month or two.

483
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: And I just remember thinking, oh, anyway, I wrote dutifully

484
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: down all the details, and she kind of looked, but

485
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 3: she looked away, and I just thought, I don't even

486
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: know what I'm going to do here, But anyway, I

487
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 3: wrote it all down, and then I got back and

488
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 3: I just I thought, I'm just going to bang it out.

489
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: And then of course, before my bum even hit the seat,

490
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: she's ringing me to say, please don't, please, don't report

491
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 3: this story. Please I don't tell the family, and.

492
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: Be don't report this story. And I'm like, I'm made.

493
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 3: Fairly, you know, And I just said, I just because

494
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 3: one of the things I was told I had to

495
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 3: present all the stories.

496
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 2: I wasn't to pick and choose.

497
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I was told that very but it's a

498
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: lesson than a small environment that you would have encountered

499
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of moral decisions to make in journalists.

500
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: And it is.

501
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's funny you should say that because things

502
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 3: aren't I know, things are black and white in law,

503
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 3: but sometimes people's behavior falls into categories that you just go, god,

504
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: you know, does that make them entirely bad? You know,

505
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 3: you are constantly making decisions about how to deal with somebody.

506
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: How to report them?

507
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah?

508
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

509
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 3: Is this is this where you in your case perhaps caution,

510
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, or is this a place where you

511
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 3: go to up to someoney and go, look, I'm going

512
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: to have to tell this story. But can you tell

513
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 3: me why you know or something you know? Just it

514
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: is a constant.

515
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: Well, funny you say that, because I know when I

516
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: first came into journalism and there was policing was black

517
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: and white to a degree, or what I was doing

518
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: as a detective locking people up. So you know someone's

519
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: done something bad, you investigate it, lock them up if

520
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: you can move on to the next one. But when

521
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: I came into journalism and you know, I've been asked

522
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: to write a story on this andy and I'm thinking, okay, well,

523
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: which do I slant it this way? Or am I

524
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: objective enough to write a story. So a lot of

525
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: gray area in journalism I didn't realize. And I know

526
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: media get the kicking, but there's a lot of There's

527
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: some unethical people in there, like there is in the cops,

528
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of ethical people in there too.

529
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: I've seen people that I respect in the media really

530
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: reflect on, Okay, should we tell this or shouldn't we

531
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: tell this story?

532
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you might be thinking about the long term

533
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 3: consequences for that person, maybe it's a mental health issue

534
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: or something, and it is you are having to determine

535
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: whether it's.

536
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: In the public interest.

537
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a killer, because ultimately there's a lot

538
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 3: of stuff that's not necessarily in the public interest and

539
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 3: that would fall into a gossipy department, you know, is

540
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 3: that really the public interest? Is that something we're all

541
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: going to benefit from, that we will all learn from,

542
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: that will all go gosh, we should change the law,

543
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: do something as a result because of that. Yeah, but no,

544
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 3: it is a it isn't always black and white.

545
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: And then for an eight year old fresh out of school,

546
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: cadet have been a lot of difficult discasser.

547
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: It was frightening, it was hair raising and it was

548
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: you know, anyway, I turned up at the wedding.

549
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 2: I wore the.

550
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: Bridesmaids, but the story was written and she did have

551
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: to tell the family and look and and everybody got

552
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: on with it. But it was Yeah, that was my

553
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 3: first hard lesson. Actually, I had to assess whether I

554
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: was up for this.

555
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. How long did you stay there?

556
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: Mannure of times? I was there for about four years.

557
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a good ground thing. That's an apprenticeship,

558
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: isn't it.

559
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: Oh, a cadeccy is That's exactly what it is. But

560
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 3: in a countrytown. I always tell people wanting to get

561
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: into journalism because usually they want to start at the top.

562
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: They want to read the news at six o'clock.

563
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: But ultimately I'd say, if you can get a foot

564
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: in the door, because everybody wants to be a journal

565
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 3: but you know, if you don't want to go to UNI, whatever,

566
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: But in my mind, if you can get a practical job,

567
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: if you can get a foot in the door of

568
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 3: a countrytown newspaper or radio or television, that's a great

569
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 3: place to start because you'll be asked to do everything.

570
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good advice. Isn't it really getting that done?

571
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: And you will make mistakes, Yeah, and you will learn

572
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: in that environment potentially without suffering too many, too.

573
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: Much damage, come more robust too. You get to understand, okay,

574
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: this is the way of the world.

575
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 3: And you know how to ask questions. You'll learn what

576
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 3: are the questions? You know what brought you the Sydney?

577
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: Oh husband, okay, finding love?

578
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: No, I was already married.

579
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: My first husband was offered a job to He was

580
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: a builder and come to Sydney, so I thought, what not? Yeah,

581
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: of course, you know, well, you know, it's his job.

582
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: And I didn't have any serious issue with that. In fact,

583
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: I saw that as okay, well, let's see how it rolls.

584
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: Give it the game. So you came down here with

585
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: the intent and getting involved in journalism.

586
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I didn't think that a country town journal

587
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: would measure up necessarily. I didn't have high hopes, but

588
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: I did think that I should give it a shot.

589
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: So I applied for jobs to everybody, including Arta Buttros,

590
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: who said thank you, no, thank.

591
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: You, you know, but fair enough. But yeah, I.

592
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: Kept banging away, and I think I spent a lot

593
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: of time sitting on a bean bag watching.

594
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: What happened to bean bags.

595
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: I don't care what you say there.

596
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: Okay, they're not really stylish, but they are comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

597
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 1: I don't know how you dress it up hard hitting issues.

598
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: We discussed eye catch killers, but they were good. They

599
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: were very comfortable. Okay, so you're down there.

600
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: But you did get a start, yes, yes, so I

601
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: got into I got into magazines and then the editor,

602
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: which didn't go that well. Necessarily. I'm not good with celebrities.

603
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: I just am not so.

604
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: And this was a magazine.

605
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: Oh actually the magazine was to Rifle was Signature magazine,

606
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: which was for American Express people who were expecting, you know,

607
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: very high level articles on wine and accommodation. I had

608
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: none of that. They also did TV Week and whatnot.

609
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: So anyway, I wasn't great with asking people.

610
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: Instead of wine. There was reference in them you actually

611
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: drank the wine.

612
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: As I was set out to do a story on

613
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: this new organic vineyard out of Mudge, and no one

614
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: told me how to spit it out.

615
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: That's nice. I look another one, but you know, and and.

616
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: Of course you know, we started after I had a

617
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: piece of toast and VIJI.

618
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: Right, it was that early and.

619
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: It was, and I did thank my photographer because he said, look,

620
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: I'm just going to take us all down to get

621
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: some shots.

622
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: In the videos while you sit down.

623
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: Time to leave.

624
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: It was very funny. I mean, I just don't know how.

625
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: I know.

626
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: It's well, you've got a fall, so you can get

627
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: back up.

628
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: Remember thinking, wow, how to get drunk on the bloody

629
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 3: first job out of town?

630
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: So how did you find your way in the TV world.

631
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 3: Then the editor of that particular group of magazines was

632
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: made the head of publicity Channel ten, and even though

633
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: he had had to sack me, he did ring at

634
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: the magazine.

635
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: He did ring me. I think he knew I was.

636
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: I think he just knew I was a decent person

637
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: and I was trying very hard. So he said, look,

638
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 3: would you like to come and join me in the

639
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: publicity department. He was taking a couple of people with him,

640
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: and I thought, yes, of course, I've never been to

641
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: a television station in my life. And of course it

642
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: wasn't good at publicity either. Just I was a storyteller.

643
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: I was a news storyteller, and so he was the

644
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: one that thought, I can't sack her again.

645
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's what he was thinking.

646
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 3: He spoke to Tom Barnett, who was the news director

647
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 3: of the time, and Tom came up and declared that

648
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: there was probably a position in the newsroom and I

649
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 3: had great.

650
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: Pins, that's from your running crew.

651
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: And of course I can understand why he said.

652
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: That run up and that was perfectly that was perfectly

653
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: acceptable in those days.

654
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 2: It was perfectly legitimate. Yes, it was.

655
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: Well, you couldn't have night could if they said you

656
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: had good pins? Well let's try.

657
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: You know, you and I can laugh about this, but

658
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: you know in certain circles you can't laugh. You've got

659
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: you've got to say how terrible.

660
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: That was inappropriate?

661
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: Red flag anyway, back then, I didn't blink. I just

662
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: said my pins and are coming to the newsroom.

663
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: So we did.

664
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 3: Don I went and I learned the art of broadcast

665
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: television done there, and that was a pretty pretty quick

666
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: learning experience as well. But it was great, and there's

667
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: some fabulous people there who really helped me understand.

668
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: And were encouraging you and guiding you.

669
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: Totally get out of that purple with Frock. That's really ugly.

670
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I learned that was the confronting bit was,

671
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: oh no, I've got to be on the telly, and

672
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: you know, I hadn't perfected the art of looking good

673
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 3: in any shape of the imaginery.

674
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: And like when you're in front of the camera, like

675
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: you're critiqued on everything you do, how you speak, how

676
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: you pronounce a word, how you look, and more so

677
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: for a female than a male, how do you look?

678
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: You have exhausting, isn't it? How did you go?

679
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: Well? My head never helped, but I like your hair, Oh,

680
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: thank you. But yeah, you've got to You've got to

681
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: be robust. And I don't think people understand the pressure

682
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: of a live cross. Like if you do a live

683
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: cross and you're standing there, there's all this noise in

684
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: the background. You know you're going to be beamed in

685
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: live and you want to get one go. You've got

686
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: the piece in your ear that you can't hardly hear

687
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: what's been said, or it's coming in a second late,

688
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. So did you have any

689
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: bad experiences with your in front of the camera.

690
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure I had a zillion, But ultimately I've

691
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: got to try and remember if there was any at

692
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: Channel Tan. Ultimately, no, I just had to get mine.

693
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: Shit together.

694
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: You and your pins me and my pins.

695
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: No, I just had to I just had to learn.

696
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: I just had to pick my game up and work out,

697
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: watch others and see see where I was going wrong.

698
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's important to see your own

699
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: work and go whatever I can improve on that. So I,

700
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: you know, I got I got through, but then I

701
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: got poached to go to Channel nine.

702
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: Look at you you're on because of your pins. Again.

703
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 3: No, I came on a phone call, so I don't

704
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: think anyone did see what pins at that point.

705
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, and Channel nine.

706
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: Of course, when I walked in, I knew this was like,

707
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 3: oh because over ten they were having a great.

708
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: Time because ten was well I won't say what's a

709
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: big deal and what's not, but ten back in that

710
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: time when you were at ten, they are a pretty

711
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: big deal TV.

712
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: Well they were.

713
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 3: But though they had a lot of young new people,

714
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 3: it was you know, the first time they had a

715
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: double head news. Katrina Lee was the female reader, and

716
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: it just it just had an energy and a vibe

717
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: which was you know, it had a fair bit of spirit.

718
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: But when I arrived at nine, it was like, okay,

719
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 3: this is very serious business. Well you notice a different

720
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: totally totally, totally, and not a lot of reporters, you know,

721
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: but those entrenched serious being around for a long time

722
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: reports and Brian Henderson, you.

723
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: Know Hendos sitting there. Yeah, of course.

724
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: And that's when I thought, Okay, I've got to get

725
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 3: into get into serious mode.

726
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: And did you really have to apply yourself to it?

727
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: Like did you like gome critique practice.

728
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: I'm just no, I wasn't that kind of person where

729
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: I practiced anything. But I realized, Okay, I've got to

730
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: I've got to take I've got to step up. I've

731
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 3: got to just yeah, I've got to exactly. I can't

732
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 3: just think that's good enough or just feel lucky I

733
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: got through. I'm now going to have to make it

734
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: that I always will get through and I'm going to

735
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 3: make lift my game to that point where it's not

736
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: an issue sending me anywhere.

737
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: But I had to, you know, I had to get

738
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: I had to get on my game.

739
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I can imagine that the pressure because it's

740
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: a spectacular fall. The more you've become known, it's a

741
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: big fall, and if you're not in the good books,

742
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: you're out of the industry very quickly.

743
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 3: Because it's still it was a man's world. And still

744
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: I was the only woman. In fact, I was replacing

745
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: the only woman had been there, so I you know,

746
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 3: it still was you know, I was still a.

747
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: Bit of a token. I could tell. You could tell

748
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: the place is not full of women at all.

749
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 3: So if I'm the only one here, all right, why

750
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,479
Speaker 3: you know, you figure it out. But you don't want

751
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: to just be, you know, the token woman. You do

752
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 3: want to so that you're you're worthwhile, you have a

753
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: reason to be here, your value.

754
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: You're right, absolutely, Yeah, And when did you get offered

755
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: to read the news?

756
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: That was oh quite yeah, down the further down the track,

757
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 3: at nine, after I'd been there for a couple of years.

758
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they asked me to read the news, which was

759
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: just like what.

760
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 3: I'd never never aspired to read the news, you know,

761
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 3: it was like, oh my god. Anyway, and by that time,

762
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 3: we were in a new news room and everybody was

763
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: sitting around you, you know, and you're at a desk

764
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: in the middle of them, and.

765
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: You're nowhere the high Oh oh my god.

766
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 2: Truly I think I could have had a stroke.

767
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: I understand you would be nervous news. You don't hardly

768
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: see anyone stuff up on the news and if they

769
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: if they do, they've been there for twenty years and

770
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: you forgive them.

771
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: But no, you're not allowed to know. You've got to

772
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: be worded perfect basically. But back then also the auto

773
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: cures paper and Sylvia was feeding it through this machine

774
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 3: and so on the screen up comes the words on

775
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: the paper that she's feeding through. But then it would

776
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: get stuck in her hand would just come up on

777
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 3: the screen and that would be all you could see

778
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 3: and you'd be like, oh, when that happened, that was

779
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: the end.

780
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: That was the end.

781
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: Did you like in reading the news, did you keep

782
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: yourself aware of what you were reporting on or were

783
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: you basically just reading off the or their cuds.

784
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 3: Well, at that stage, I was just having to sort

785
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 3: of get the autoque sorted. And it was so we

786
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: had a morning news eleven am news, but we also

787
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 3: had an evening news and that could and we would

788
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: get a call to say, the news tonight will be

789
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: two minutes long and it'll be at ten past ten,

790
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 3: and be like, or the news to night beyond nine

791
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: thirty and you need to fill up forty minutes.

792
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: And there was just the two of us were like, oh,

793
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: my God, what are we going to talk?

794
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 3: No, while we would drag up the news from the

795
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 3: six pm and you know, revoice a lot of that stuff.

796
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: But it was a great again, a great learning experience,

797
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: and you know, we just made the best of it.

798
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: But yes, then I know broadcasting became something I understood better.

799
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 1: So you're still carving, carving your way through the career

800
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: and these are all what you consider a step in

801
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: the right direction on what you wanted to achieve or

802
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: were you just having a look at the whole.

803
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 3: I didn't have a game plan. I just didn't have

804
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 3: a game plan at all. I was still coming from

805
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: a place of.

806
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: Wow, how did I find myself here?

807
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

808
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: Oh gosh really because again that confidence I didn't have,

809
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: you know, a massive amount of confidence.

810
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 2: So I was always a.

811
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 3: Bit surprised and I'd be like, oh, and then I think, yes,

812
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: I can't say no, I should say yes to this.

813
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 3: And I knew I was taking a.

814
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: Risk, okay, but you had the courage to take that risk.

815
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 2: Yes.

816
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: I always felt like I didn't want to regret saying no,

817
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 3: So I was taking the risks. So I was prepared

818
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 3: to do that. And then and it happened with the

819
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: Today Show as well, because I was asked to fill in.

820
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 1: Well, the Today Show takes at another level, doesn't if

821
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: you're the and you hosted the Today Show for ten years?

822
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 3: I did, I did, but I came in filling in

823
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: for some for patrise Newall, who was the co host

824
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: at that time with Steve Libbin, and I would fill in.

825
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: But you know what, I sat in that seat and

826
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: felt immediately.

827
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: Comfortable, felt right for I couldn't. I was shocked actually quickly.

828
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: I don't know why.

829
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: I mean, I was aware, you know that I had

830
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: to sort of, you know, bring my A game to

831
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: that as well, but I don't know that it was

832
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 3: at that time of my life.

833
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: It just suited me. The hours, didn't.

834
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: What type of wake up call? What was the alarm?

835
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 3: Oh? Was it like three in the morning or something?

836
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: And poor old Geraldine from the reception at nine, her

837
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: job was to back in the day. I don't think

838
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: they do that now, would ring you morning? Liz?

839
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

840
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 3: Oh god, that was just the because I was not

841
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: good at going to bed. You know, you want the

842
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: sun to go down, don't you?

843
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: Mostly so? But you know, I love the Today Show.

844
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: But of course the Today Show is.

845
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: Really where eyes really came to understand me. I had

846
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: a few marriages in that time I was doing this

847
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 3: live television. I had a Kerry Packer, somebody I came

848
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: to know, Sam Chisholm, who was my god. I was

849
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 3: now in this world and I didn't have a manager

850
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: or anything like that. We didn't have managers, and I

851
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: had to fight for a quality, you know, in how

852
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: we were presented on the show, but also pay I

853
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: never got a quality, but I had to fight for

854
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 3: a pay rise and stuff like that. And I think

855
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 3: that that was good for me.

856
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: Well, it would certainly toughen you up.

857
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: Sure did it? Sure did?

858
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: How did how did your life from a personal point

859
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: of view change when you became such a public figure,

860
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: because you really, if you're hosting the Today Show and

861
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: the way that Today Show ran, how did that impact

862
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: on you?

863
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: Well, as we see today, the Today's Show and those

864
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: breakfast shows have people. You're there every day pretty much,

865
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: so you become very much front and center in this

866
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 3: world of well, we don't have royalty or anything like that,

867
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: so we're about the only celebrities. Then it particularly you

868
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 3: know that you're the person we wake up to do

869
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: you know? People used to bet on what color I

870
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: would wear. I've been finding these people are coming up

871
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: to you. You listen, you know, do you know what Back

872
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: in the day, we used to have betting at work

873
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: about what color you're going to turn up?

874
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: Make sure given you a tip, you might have made

875
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 1: a bit of money.

876
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: I might have.

877
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: But first of all, I had to come to terms

878
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: with being so public. I didn't appreciate how public that

879
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: would be. Secondly, I wasn't the smartest person because my

880
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: public my private life was now going to be very public.

881
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 3: I really should have got a better grip on that.

882
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 3: And just generally who you are. That's an internal conversation

883
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: you begin to have, Who am I? I'm out there?

884
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 3: Well the media, whoever's decided to have a go. I

885
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: was having a go, and I'm I'm now questioning, Am

886
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: I that bad?

887
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: Is that really how I'm seeing? Am I really awful?

888
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 3: You know?

889
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: And it's a really terrible time to have.

890
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: To And I was thirty or we went from thirty

891
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 3: to forty years of age in that period, and I

892
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 3: just and I took a few tumbles in terms of personally,

893
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: I just you know, I had a couple of marriage breakdowns,

894
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: and that was what was all that was being discussed.

895
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: Plus I had found myself with a stalker, so everything

896
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: was out of.

897
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: Kilter there for a while. But the constant was my job.

898
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: The thing that anchored me was getting up with that

899
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 3: hideous hour and turning up and being with people who

900
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: were very supportive, and Steve Living was like the most

901
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: stable man in.

902
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: My life other than my dad, you know.

903
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, suddenly suddenly you're constantly aware of yourself. And

904
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of myself quite like I had been before,

905
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 3: and everything about me was up for grabs.

906
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: So you had to become comfortable within yourself when I.

907
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 2: Had to find it.

908
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to.

909
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: I had to, and my parents played a big role

910
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 3: in that. A couple of times when I just thought, Wow,

911
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: I'm falling down at Krebs.

912
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: Here imposter syndrome, did that sort of how have I

913
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: got to this point? I shouldn't be here and I'm

914
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: going to be discovered.

915
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 3: I don't you have a little everybody has a little

916
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: bit of that, And I didn't think about it like that.

917
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 3: I just felt like, oh, I don't want to embarrass

918
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 3: myself or fail. But of course I think anybody. Well,

919
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: I think normal people have moments where they go hope,

920
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 3: I don't rule this moment, So I think that's common.

921
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was. It was.

922
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: A time when I had to smarten up again on

923
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: a personal front as well as on a job front,

924
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: and to have a pretty strong conversation with myself about

925
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: who I am, who I want to be, and how

926
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: I was going to negotiate this was if I was

927
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 3: going to stay in it, how I was going to

928
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: negotiate it. So you know what I basically everybody thinks

929
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 3: it's hysterical, but it's not. I thought I'm going to disappear,

930
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: so I joined sixty minutes.

931
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's good. If you hide, hide out in

932
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: the open, no one will find you.

933
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: No. But what it meant was I was not around

934
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: as much. I was just not that daily person on

935
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: the news or on the Today shy. I was not

936
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 3: at home being found by paparazzi or anybody else.

937
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: I was able. No one knew where I was. And

938
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: you just take yourself off the dial. And it worked.

939
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: Okay, it doesn't.

940
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop headlines.

941
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: I know that, but that daily grind, people knocking on

942
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 3: my neighbor's door, what's happening?

943
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: My take on morning TV, it's almost like we own you,

944
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: Like if you get up and the TV's on, you're

945
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: getting yeah, well I see you every day. It's so

946
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: I can understand.

947
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 3: It's the view of the viewers of AR views are

948
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 3: usually fantastic, although you'll get those who you constantly tell

949
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 3: you how terrible you are. But but it's really that

950
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: which goes with it, that public you know, outing of

951
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 3: you are on so many levels, like you, you look

952
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 3: terrible today.

953
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: You make a mistake, it'll be on the front pine you.

954
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 3: Know, another marriage over or whatever. It's as a human being,

955
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 3: it takes its ta and.

956
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: Like going through those relationship separations or a marriage, it's

957
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: painful enough. But if it's out in public, and then jeez,

958
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: it is.

959
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is awful.

960
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: And I'm very sympathetic to anybody who finds themselves in

961
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 3: that position because I've been there and I know it

962
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You can't go knock on everybody's door and

963
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: say it's not true or whatever. You just have to

964
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 3: suck it up.

965
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: You have to. You're tough enough to you'd have to.

966
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: So with sixty minutes, how did that offer? And again,

967
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: I say, I'm jealous because it's I reckon, it's it

968
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: should be a great job.

969
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 2: You should be just because actually, if I was to

970
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: tell the absolute truth.

971
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely in fact, too many people God yeah, I think, yeah,

972
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think the secrets how people go?

973
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: That's cool? Yeah, how did that come about?

974
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: Literally, Peter Mekin, who was the head of music courrent affairs,

975
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 3: rang me and said would you like to join sixty

976
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 3: minutes Tracy Kuro, who is the reporter at the time,

977
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 3: was leaving, and I thought, can I do that? So

978
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 3: there's your slight imposter syndrome as I had that member.

979
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: Of because you could be taking on the head of

980
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: government or also any story.

981
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: Well, I had reviewed this program so and I knew that,

982
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 3: you know, even though the toenation was fabulous at teaching

983
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: you how to get to the core of the subject

984
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 3: in four quick questions or whatever, you because you had

985
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 3: to and it's live and there's no turning back. I

986
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: knew that I was stepping into a place that I

987
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 3: really would have to dig deep into conversations and know

988
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: and really know my stuff and all that. But I

989
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: did see it as it came for me at the

990
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: right time. Ten years was enough. But also I felt

991
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: like I just couldn't. I'd been divorced, and I just

992
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 3: thought it's time to take this next risk in life, all.

993
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: Right, and well another risk, Well it is a risk

994
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: risk challenge, but yeah, because you could go on there

995
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason it just didn't click.

996
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: And it does happen.

997
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 3: You know, some people come to sixty minutes and not

998
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 3: so much reporters as ORTHO. You know that can happen.

999
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: But because it's a it's an ecosystem. You know, there's

1000
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: a you know, producers and cameramen and some people and

1001
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 3: what was required of us back then it's changed now,

1002
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 3: I have to say, because COVID changed everything. But we

1003
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: would be out there forever and you'd be traveling with

1004
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 3: three other people and you just have to make that work.

1005
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 3: So and it didn't always didn't suit everybody.

1006
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: And I think there's like there's a fun times, but

1007
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: in the times, I've been a way of sixty minutes

1008
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: work hard. Like it's yeah, I was very impressed, not surprised.

1009
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 1: But now we're going to get this shot. There will

1010
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 1: be another two hours. Yeah, let's do it. And yeah,

1011
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: I see everyone really roll their sleeves up and get

1012
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: into it.

1013
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 3: People are al who's surprised at how long it takes

1014
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: to shoot a story, and it is because you're going

1015
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: to all that trouble to get some really interesting pictures

1016
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 3: and angles, and you know, there's a lot of black

1017
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 3: holes to fill. But there is a lot of behind

1018
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 3: the scenes work that takes place. So it is a

1019
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: lot of hard work. When I was there, I think

1020
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 3: we were blessed. We had a very good budget. That

1021
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 3: wasn't an issue.

1022
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, I heard people win about wing about in

1023
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 1: the old days.

1024
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: Well, and we should never talk about the old days

1025
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 3: because it's like it's hurtful. But no, in my day

1026
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: it was fantastic. But I think even today, you know,

1027
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 3: it's tough. Like all media businesses, it's not so you know,

1028
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 3: business class trouble is not on the agenda. But we

1029
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: could go anywhere in the world, but we always had

1030
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 3: to come back with the story.

1031
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 2: But you know, there were some pretty shitty places were.

1032
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: To Yeah, there was I was looking and people to

1033
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: get a sense of the amount of travel you do.

1034
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: Oh, I could be away easily six weeks at time

1035
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: and go around the world. You know, a couple of

1036
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 3: times and change producers a couple of times.

1037
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: Well I'm just and this again from your book, and

1038
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: this is talking about one particular time, just one night.

1039
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: Itinery had me covering the cloning of Dolly the Sheep

1040
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: in Scotland on the twenty sixth of March, and then

1041
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: traveling to London, New York, and Los Angeles, eventually landing

1042
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: in Miami, where, slightly hungover and somewhat starstruck, I interviewed

1043
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: the BG's and loved them. That's in brackets. You must

1044
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: have really loved them. On the eighth of April, I

1045
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 1: reported in Bogatar, Emerald Mine on the eleventh of April,

1046
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: then Afghanistan on Anzac Day. On the fifth of mayl

1047
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: I was in Pakistan. Three days later. I was sitting

1048
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: down for lunch one of my favorite beast side restaurants

1049
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: in Sydney. That's crazy travel.

1050
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 3: It was, it was, and you know it wasn't as

1051
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 3: I was. I kept a diary. I'm so glad I did.

1052
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: I don't know why I did.

1053
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: You know why I did? I do know. I was

1054
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 2: trying to keep up with what I had to be doing.

1055
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: I'd be like, so what am I doing? Now? I'm

1056
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: going to wear. That's why I kept the diary. But

1057
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 2: I would write.

1058
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 3: Things on the way because it just kept me vaguely entertained.

1059
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 3: But yeah, even when I went through my own diaries

1060
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 3: again over those twenty five years, I do think, what

1061
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 3: the hell I do recall it being, But I was

1062
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: excited and exhilarated by it at that time, so I

1063
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 3: didn't mind. And I think at the end of one trip,

1064
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: I arrived home from around the world and changed bags,

1065
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 3: got less clean unders in and went straight up to

1066
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 3: do Dolly done the next day.

1067
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: I think that was in the same same year You've

1068
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: traveled to Moscow. The interview the anty time, we're going

1069
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: to speak about the astronaut. I always wanted to be

1070
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 1: an astronaut because I couldn't be a sixty minutes report.

1071
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: Sounded pretty cool. To Kakistan and Beakistan, London, Sydney and

1072
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: off to Honduras. Yeah, crazy crazy travel. Yeah, let's because

1073
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: it is a true crime podcast. One of the stories

1074
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: that you talk about that you saw from start to

1075
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: finish was a Lindy Chamberlain case and from when you

1076
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: were reporting on the Today Show and then how it

1077
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: played out for people that don't know and I think

1078
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: most people would. Lindy Chamberlain had her baby Asaria, which

1079
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: now we accept was taken by a dingo, but she

1080
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: was convicted of the murder.

1081
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was.

1082
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 3: She and her family were camping at Ularu and adingo

1083
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: literally came into the tent and took baby Azaria, who

1084
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 3: was like six weeks old at the time. And it

1085
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 3: was one of those stories that that divided a nation.

1086
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: Everyone had an opinion.

1087
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 3: There was a Hollywood film on it, Meryl Street played

1088
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: Lindy Chamberlin. It was one of those stories that divided journalists.

1089
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 3: I'm sure it divided police, but the community generally. It

1090
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 3: really really it really, You're right, everybody had an opinion.

1091
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on that, because the media played a

1092
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: big part in that, And what's your take.

1093
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 3: On Well, my take on that is similar to Johan Lee's. Yeah,

1094
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: a very similar story where her boyfriend Peter Falconio at

1095
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 3: the time were not quite backpacking because they were in

1096
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 3: a van, a Comby van, but they were in Australia

1097
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 3: from the UK having a year of working and traveling

1098
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 3: around and they were traveling up the Stuart Highway I

1099
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 3: think it was, and out of Alice towards Darwin, and

1100
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 3: a car came up behind them it was dark and

1101
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 3: motioned to them to pull over, and they were of

1102
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 3: the opinion that something was wrong with the car and

1103
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 3: that's why they pulled over.

1104
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 1: That was a horrible, horrible case. But I know there

1105
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: was a lot of people had opinions about her and

1106
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: of them because of the way she reacted, all the perception.

1107
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: Of the way she Yeah, I think there were a

1108
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 3: couple of things. And I think Peter's never been found.

1109
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 3: His body has never been found, and you can if

1110
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 3: you go out there, you can tell why. Wow, if

1111
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 3: you found him, it would be amazing.

1112
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 2: But also.

1113
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 3: It was I think part of how she reacted, which

1114
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: is like Lindy Chamberlain, it didn't fit the mold or

1115
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 3: the expectation of somebody who would be in this terrible

1116
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 3: situation grieving with Lindy Chamberlain. I happened to be at

1117
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 3: Channel ten and I remember hearing over the radio this

1118
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 3: report while I was in the office about I didn't

1119
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 3: go had taken this baby, And I remember thinking, wow, gosh,

1120
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 3: because back then we'd never thought it didn't go or

1121
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 3: do such a thing, or could could do such a thing,

1122
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 3: and I think when I was at Channel nine when

1123
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 3: it was reported again and the Today's Show in sixty minutes,

1124
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 3: it is one of those stories which if if it

1125
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 3: gets into people's head early enough, they have trouble shaking

1126
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 3: the fact they might have got it wrong, and the

1127
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 3: media has a bit of trouble shaking it might have

1128
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 3: got it wrong too, you know. I think we can

1129
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 3: find it hard sometimes to say, oh, maybe we got

1130
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 3: that totally wrong, but it was just and maybe kept

1131
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 3: selling well, I don't know the story if you kept

1132
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 3: countering the story, but I just I think it wasn't

1133
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 3: assisted by some poor policing worker, forensic work. All those

1134
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 3: sorts of things obviously played into it. It's out back

1135
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 3: Australia at the time, you know, and I feel very sorry,

1136
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 3: but I think that Lindy and Michael at the time.

1137
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 2: Were religious people. Whether that played into it, It just

1138
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: we were judgmental back then about a lot of things

1139
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 2: for a lot of not so good reasons, and I

1140
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 2: think that played into this narrative of it just couldn't

1141
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: be possible that a dingo did this and somehow rather,

1142
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: you know, these are peculiar people and.

1143
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 3: Something obviously went you know awry and we'll say I,

1144
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 3: Dingo did this. You know, I had a High Court

1145
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: judge say to me, he's passed away now that he

1146
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 3: believed there were questions about that case, not in a

1147
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 3: good way, And I thought, wow, I couldn't figure.

1148
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: He couldn't quite tell me why either, just quietly.

1149
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 3: So I think we can get a prejudicial quite early

1150
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 3: in the piece.

1151
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: I think because everyone had an opinion and it was

1152
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: a snippet that could be a headline or that when

1153
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: people hang on to that piece of information. What with

1154
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: Joanne Lee's what was that about? Because I never understood

1155
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: why people were.

1156
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 3: So well again, I think I think there was this

1157
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: suggest you know, it's a bit like Linda Tambler as well.

1158
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: You know, she's not behaving like she's straw together and

1159
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 3: Joanne and lies is not behaving like she's supposed to

1160
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: now that she's almost lost her life as.

1161
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: Well, abducted in the middle of the desert.

1162
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 3: And to be honest, when I sat down with her,

1163
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 3: that woman is tortured by the fact that still today

1164
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 3: people don't believe that she didn't have something to do

1165
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 3: with Peter's disappearance. I mean, it's incredible, but I think

1166
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: it really it gets a hold very quickly, and it

1167
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that there shouldn't be counter stories if you've

1168
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 3: got evidence or if you've got questions. I don't think

1169
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to go against the grain. I think

1170
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 3: you can, but I think you've got to have a

1171
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: good reason to do it. But it never gave never

1172
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 3: let up. It just never let up. And I think

1173
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 3: I believe that that's where the media has played a

1174
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 3: detrimental role actually in both cases, where it's just compounded

1175
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 3: negativity for reasons I've not been convinced that the evidence

1176
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 3: has been there to say that any of these people

1177
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 3: are guilty of anything.

1178
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 2: Other than those who have been Don't Go and Bradley murder.

1179
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: And I think that you talk about the perception of

1180
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: how someone should react if they are in those situations,

1181
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: and that's from a detectives point of view, that was

1182
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: something we're always careful of because you don't know how

1183
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: people are going to react in the most traumatic situation

1184
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: you could find yourself in. And I think there's a

1185
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: bit of a perception with like a female they should

1186
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: be collapsed and crying because well, maybe they're hurting on

1187
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: the inside, but they're trying to be brave for support

1188
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: the others around them. So yeah, I found it interesting

1189
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,439
Speaker 1: on that and that you linked it to the joe

1190
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: An Lee's one, because I couldn't get that because I

1191
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: thought she was reacting perfectly normal in a situation and

1192
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:00,959
Speaker 1: like that, like.

1193
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 3: It's I think she was keeping herself away. I don't

1194
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 3: know whether she knew how to deal with it, and

1195
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 3: she was embarrassed because there was this, you know, a

1196
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 3: little piece of gossip that got out that she'd had

1197
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: an affair with somebody when she was in Sydney, you know,

1198
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 3: at the bar that she was working out or whatever.

1199
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 3: So it just it just I think it's the worst

1200
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 3: possible scenario for her. You know, she's felt the need

1201
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 3: to change everything about herself to sort of escape it.

1202
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 3: But in her heart, you know, she's she was for

1203
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: a very long time a broken moment.

1204
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 1: And that's a sense that you got totally.

1205
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 3: I totally got that. You know, she didn't trust the

1206
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 3: media at all. I sat down with her and I said, ultimately, Joanne,

1207
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 3: it's up to you how you do this, but it's

1208
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 3: okay to be vulnerable, because I think that's probably I

1209
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 3: know you are. I can see you are, but I'm

1210
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 3: not going to make a fool of you. I just

1211
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 3: want to hear from you, and I want you to

1212
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 3: tell me what it feels like from the heart. And

1213
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 3: I think she did. But I did change everybody's mind.

1214
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 3: I don't there to change people's minds anyway.

1215
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: It's so hard I and you know, we'll probably get

1216
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: this editor or legal But the William Tyill case, now

1217
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm obviously very close to that. But what's been portrayed

1218
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: in the media in regards to the foster mother that

1219
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: we can't name for legal reasons. I just think it's

1220
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: been disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. And I know the investigation obviously,

1221
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: and I've watched that. I say publicly to people, I

1222
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: think it's like the Lindy Chamberlain case, like everyone's got

1223
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: an opinion. There's not a day I don't walk the

1224
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: street and someone come up and offer, oh, she must

1225
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: have done it. Why because some media headline or something

1226
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: that the police have leaked to the media. And I

1227
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 1: just think it's been so cruel watching watching that play out.

1228
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 3: I've got to be honest and say that is one

1229
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 3: of the aspects of the business. I'm in which you

1230
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 3: have to be very careful about uh. And we've learned

1231
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 3: that the hard way sometimes where we thought it looks

1232
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: a bit suss, only to find we were the ones

1233
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 3: who had it totally wrong. I recently did a story

1234
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 3: with Lauren's Onfrelo. Her husband, Jocksonfrelo, died and it's never

1235
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 3: been revealed how he died or why he died. He

1236
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 3: was found in a hotel in Melbourne. He was the

1237
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 3: master chef and he was about to start publicity for

1238
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 3: his new series, and the coroner determined it was not

1239
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 3: in the public interest for anyone to know why or how.

1240
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: And she didn't want to say and and there was

1241
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 3: there was a slap up over she had to tell people,

1242
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 3: and it was like, how unkind is that?

1243
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: Does she have to do it?

1244
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 3: It clearly is a big issue you for her, And

1245
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 3: it was like, Wow, people are so so feel they're

1246
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 3: entitled and they take on a position and they will

1247
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 3: judge a human being at the worst time.

1248
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: We are making.

1249
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 3: Judgments about people who are probably in the worst place

1250
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 3: they've ever been in their life. And it's really we

1251
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 3: have to be really careful about that.

1252
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I see like or I hear not just

1253
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: see I'm hearing like in Bill informed comments based on

1254
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: what I'm young with. The evidence doesn't support that, the

1255
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: facts don't support that, but that sort of gets lost

1256
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: in the type of public opinion. But that's probably the

1257
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: responsibility you have as a journalist.

1258
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 2: Oh. I think as a journalist we do.

1259
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 3: And I you know, that's when you have to really

1260
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 3: probably hang on to the facts, because that's when you

1261
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 3: could if you stray beyond the facts in cases like this,

1262
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 3: of the cases we've discussed, that's when you can get

1263
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 3: yourself into deep trouble. And I think surmising is was

1264
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 3: you just can't and I think I think we have

1265
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 3: a responsibility to be diligent on that front.

1266
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well, look, we might take a break in the

1267
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: part one. When we come back, will dive more into

1268
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: the World's Best Job as sixty Minutes journalists and some

1269
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: of the stories that you've covered there, which is quite

1270
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: fascinating looking at some of the crimes that you've covered,

1271
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: natural disasters, traveling war zones, all sorts of things. I

1272
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: don't know where the conversation is going to go, but

1273
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm also going to talk about the death of your

1274
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: father because I know that was a very I think

1275
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: you've described as the hardest story that you had to tell,

1276
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: and the lessons learned the importance of telling the story

1277
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 1: about that situation. So if we take a break and

1278
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 1: we'll be back, do I say, I'm Gary jubilin this

1279
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: is I catch Killers that you can can I say that?

1280
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 2: Why don't you like Lauren?

1281
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: I'm Gary Jubilan This says eye catch killers. We'll be

1282
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: back soon.

1283
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 2: I love it.

1284
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 1: Thanks, please,