WEBVTT - The "world's oldest lesbian" 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.000 Once you get into it. By the time the Second 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.680 World War breaks out in Europe, the security services are 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:15.160 very alarmed about anybody with Japanese connections. And I even 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.840 found when I went to the National Archives that there 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.520 are little records of Monty, so they were keeping an 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:24.040 eye on the classes that she was taking. The things 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.160 that aroused fear and alarm at that time were quite remarkable. 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.239 I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.120 in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:43.040 forgotten characters. Today's story is about a woman who came 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.519 to national prominence when she was dubbed the world's oldest 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.840 lesbian after coming out at the age of one hundred 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.840 and three. Her name was Monty Punchin, and her perfect 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.280 diction and manners disguised her wild past as a bad 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.520 girl who once hung out at edgy Melbourne bars and 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.600 secret drag parties, and was monitored in the lead up 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.960 to World War II by security services who suspected her 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:14.520 Japanese teacher was a spy. The story is told in 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:19.679 a new book called A Secretive Century Monty Punchin's Australia. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:24.360 The author, Tessa Morris, Suzuki is Professor Emerita of History 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.640 at the Australian National University, and she joins us now, 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.720 welcome to the podcast, Tessa, thank you now. Monty Punchin 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.679 had such a long and remarkable life, and I'm sure 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.360 that people who met her in her later life and 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.039 saw this dear old lady with her perfect nineteenth century 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.280 diction would never have imagined that she was once this 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.680 bad girl who frequented edgy bars and was involved in 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.800 secret drag parties of nineteen thirty's Queer Melbourne. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.760 So she was quite a remarkable woman in her hundreds, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.880 because she lived to one hundred and six. She certainly 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:05.920 presented as a very correct speaking, very elderly lady, but 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.480 one with an extremely sharp memory. But she had had 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.799 a remarkable life, and really the remarkable life was still continuing, 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.760 because beneath the very correct surface, the bad girl was 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:19.880 still definitely there. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.200 One of the themes that you explore in your book 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.000 is that when you live such a long life as 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.880 Monty did, you live through so much history, and in 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.079 Monte's case, that extends right back to the eighteen eighty 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:37.440 eight Melbourne Centennial Exhibition. Can you tell us about some 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.919 of the many events that Monty lived through. 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.160 Yeah, So for me, one of the fascinating things about 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.400 her life is that it was so long and she 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:52.760 lived through so many crucial events in Australia's modern history. So, yes, 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.799 she was present at the eighteen eighty eight Melbourne Centennial Exhibition. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.560 She actually exhibited some handy work there. She lived through 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.800 the Great Depression of the eighteen nineties, but also the 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.880 Great Depression of the nineteen thirties, through the Boar War, 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.120 the First and the Second World War, the dismissal of 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.600 GoF Whitlam, And she was there and quite actively involved 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:23.200 in the nineteen eighty eight Bisentenary Exhibition in Brisbane. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.440 I can't wait to hear more about that later on 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.239 because there's a huge controversy surrounding her involvement in the 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.840 nineteen eighty eight expo in Brisbane. So we'll hear about 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.160 that more later in the episode. And just going back 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.120 to the eighteen eighty eight Melbourne Centennial Exhibition when she 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.880 exhibited she was only six years old when she exhibited 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.120 her handiwork. It's hard to believe, isn't it. 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:49.080 Yes, it's remarkable. So there was a competition that she 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.520 went in for as a small child, and she produced 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:56.600 this very fine piece of embroidery which you can still see. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.880 It's in a museum today and because of that exhibited 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:02.520 now tell. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.840 Us more about her early life. Whereabouts did she grow up. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.640 She grew up mostly in Ballarat. She came from a 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:16.640 fairly middle class, respectable family in Ballarat. She did also 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:22.360 spend part of her childhood in Saint Kilda, and her 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:26.800 grandparents had migrated from Britain during the Gold Rush, so 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.960 it was very much that kind of classical nineteenth century 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.719 white Australian history that she was born into. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.640 And how old was she when it became obvious that 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:39.160 she was a bit of a rebel. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.960 Well, I guess pretty early on. She has a story 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.400 that she tells about when she was a child, she 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.120 liked to dress up in her uncle's clothes or her 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.680 grandfather's clothes, and she was once caught in her grandfather's 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.440 clothes doing carpentry outside the house and her grandmother said, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.799 you know, no good will come up this child. 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.600 And she got involved with children's theater groups when she 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.799 was reasonably young, didn't she yes. 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:13.000 So when she was an adult she started performing on 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.200 the stage you know, at school she loved performing. She 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.359 would have loved to have been an actor, but for 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.800 her quite religious, middle class family that was out of 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.120 the question. Becoming a professional actor was out of the question. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.680 So when she was in her twenties going into her thirties, 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:38.000 she became a teacher with children's theater and traveled around 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.719 Australia with remarkable children's theater groups. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.800 Tell us about what she got up to during the 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:44.600 First World War. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.560 So during the First World War she was very active 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.440 in the theater. Things kind of changed during the First 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.840 World War. There was a great boom in theatrical activity. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.400 Rather it might seem rather strange, but you know, at 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.680 that time people in Australia really needed a distraction from 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.360 all the terrible things that were happening around the world. 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:11.120 So amateur or semi amateur theater flourished in Melbourne in 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.400 other parts of Australia during the First World War and 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.719 Monty was really active in this. And up until then 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.200 her parents had absolutely disapproved of her being on the 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:27.080 stage in any sort of professional capacity. But during the 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.440 First World War, in a way, the dividing line between 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.880 amateur and professional broke down and there were all these 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:37.919 groups staging plays to raise money for the Red Cross 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.880 or other war related causes, and suddenly her father was 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.160 very happy for Monty to be on the stage because 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.840 it was all part of the national war effort. So 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.840 she got involved in some extremely interesting theatrical performances during 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:52.760 those years. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.880 And she was involved in the pioneering days of radio 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:56.760 as well, wasn't he. 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.400 That's right? Yes, So very early on she got a 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.479 little slot on radio where she was allowed to really 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.920 choose the content of her short talks, and very interestingly, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:15.000 I think she chose to tell a version of Aboriginal 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.240 dream time stories. Now this was a version that had 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.720 been written by a friend of hers in Melbourne. They 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.240 were probably not very close to the original dream Time stories, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.040 but the fact that she wanted to tell these on 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.040 radio when there was so little content related to Aboriginal 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.800 people seems to be quite pioneering and remarkable for that age. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.800 Exactly. I mean, it would be such an incredibly normal 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.320 thing to do today, wouldn't it, but ninety years ago 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:44.560 would be unheard of. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.600 Yes, Now, thank. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.880 You very much for telling us about her professional background. 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.240 What was going on in her personal life. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.120 So she met a young man shortly before the Boer 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.240 War who had wanted her to marry him. She had 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.080 then gone after the Boer War and actually settled in 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.760 South Africa, and at one point he returned and asked 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.240 her to come to South Africa with him, but she 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.960 had decided by then that really relationships with men were 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.320 not for her. So by the time of the First 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:21.560 World War she was starting to become engaged in a 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.400 relationship which really became the love of her life with 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:30.760 a Melbourne woman called Debbie Sutton, and this relationship lasted 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.200 into the second half of the nineteen twenties. They lived 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.600 together for a while, but ultimately it broke up and 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.480 it really broke Ponty Punchon's heart. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.880 Just to put this in context at the time, was 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.280 this something that the two women would have been able 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.160 to tell their friends and family. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.559 Well, the interesting thing is that at that time Monty 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.240 Punchen and I think, you know, almost everybody of her 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:59.839 generation they'd never heard the word lesbian. She herself, I guess, 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.680 only starting to work out her own sexuality. But in 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.040 a way, because of that, for two women, you know, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.199 to live together was not really regarded as at all 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.360 strange or a subject of gossip. It was just assumed 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.240 there were, you know, two maiden ladies sharing a house. 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.280 It didn't seem to have alarmed or concerned her family 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.280 at all, but they didn't really understand the depth of 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:25.840 the relationship that was developing. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.720 Now. Monty always had a passion for travel, and she 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.080 always had an interest in learning about people from all 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.760 over the world tell us about her overseas travels. 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.280 So she embarked on a journey to East Asia entirely 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.000 by accident. Really, what had happened was that a friend 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.440 of hers called Marjorie Rieford, had been given a pair 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:53.320 of tickets for a free trip to Japan, which another 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.120 friend had wanted a ruffle and wasn't able to use. Now, 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.880 a trip to Japan in those days was a really 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.840 big deal. It was a lot sea journey and Marjorie 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.400 needed a companion, so she invited Monty Punchen to come 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.400 with her, and offe went, and it was an eye 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.880 opener for Monty. In the end, she didn't just go 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.120 to Japan. She went on briefly to China, to Korea 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.320 and also to Hong Kong, and it really changed her life. 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.319 One of the other interesting things about Monty is that 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.199 she was one of the first Australians to study Japanese, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:28.720 wasn't she. 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.520 Yes, she was a pioneer in that respect as well. 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.120 She didn't actually, you know, formally study at university, but 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.000 she was one of the first people to take classes 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.439 initially offered on the radio in the nineteen thirties, and 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.440 then she signed up for an evening class at Melbourne University. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.959 And she was passionate about studying Japanese, even though obviously 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.280 it was very difficult for somebody at that time. You know, 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.640 she'd only had a very brief stay in Japan, and 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.600 she did have much opportunity to talk to people other 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.440 than her teacher, who was Japanese himself. 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.080 But this was the nineteen thirties, so it was in 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.160 some ways a dangerous time to be studying Japanese, and 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.600 it brought her to the attention of security services. Can 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.520 you tell us more about that. 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.520 That's right, yes, So in the early nineteen thirties, the 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:25.480 relationship with Japan was not so bad and trade was 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.800 booming between Australia and Japan. But by the time you 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.679 get into the late nineteen thirties, of course, there's a 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.960 lot of alarm in Australia about Japan's growing militarism, particularly 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.480 after it had taken over Manchuria, and then there was 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:44.120 the invasion of China in nineteen thirty seven. So once 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.040 you get into about thirty nine, by the time the 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.000 Second World War breaks out in Europe, the security services 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:55.720 are very alarmed about anybody with Japanese connections. And I 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.520 even found when I went to the National Archives that 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.400 there are little records of so they were keeping an 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.040 eye on the classes that she was taking and on 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:09.040 her and rather bravely, I thought. At that point it 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.160 became difficult for the Japanese language group to meet, and 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.520 she actually opened her flat to her apartment and said, 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:17.960 you know, if you want to come and meet in 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.000 my apartment and talk Japanese here, you're welcome to do that. 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.080 So who was their teacher they would have had a 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:30.680 Japanese teacher? Was that the person that our security services 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.600 were concerned about? Do you think is that the reason 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.080 that they had come to the attention of security services. 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.400 Well, I think anybody who had any sort of Japanese 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.400 connection was being watched pretty closely. But yeah, her teacher 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.640 was a man known as Moshi in Agaki. It was 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.800 a sort of anglicizedation of his name. He had attracted 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.040 a lot of attention from the security services. There are 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.640 great fat files on him in the archives. There's really 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:04.200 no evidence that he was doing anything sinister, but he 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:09.120 did have some connections to cultural agencies and so on 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:14.719 in Japan, and so the Australian authorities first of all, 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.040 they thought he was a spy, and then they started 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:22.120 to think that he was deliberately being sent to teach 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:27.160 Japanese badly, so that Australians wouldn't learn proper Japanese and 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.760 this would weaken their position in their dealings with Japan, 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.040 which I think is a fairly remarkable assumption for them 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:34.840 to have made. 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:40.000 Oh how fascinating. So when Monteo opened up her flat, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.840 did the teacher come to her flat to teach the classes? 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.920 I guess. So it's difficult to tell exactly who came, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.079 but it's likely that he came. He'd become a good 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.560 friend of hers, and also he was married to an 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.000 Australian and she was a good friend of his wife 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:54.520 as well. 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.839 And was there any suggestion that the security services were 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.239 following any of the students in the class. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.520 Yes, I think there were certainly following some of them. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.480 I think, you know, in a slightly nineteen thirty sexist way, 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.160 they were much more worried by the men than they 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.840 were by the women. So there were a couple of 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.320 other women teachers who were also taking the classes, and 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:22.000 although they appear in the security records, they don't seem 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.160 to have roused the same level of alarm as the 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:26.960 men who were studying did. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:29.920 Was Monty ever followed herself. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.640 I couldn't see any records that she'd been followed. 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.120 How fascinating. That must have been so much fun to 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.120 look for all those details in the records. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.720 It was. It is extraordinary, you know. The things that 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.760 aroused fear and alarm at that time were quite remarkable. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.840 Often very small and innocent things caused great alarm to 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:52.200 the security services. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.040 We'll be back soon. Do you hear what happened to 0:14:55.120 --> 0:15:06.600 Monty next? So stay with us. Apart from studying Japanese, 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.160 she was also active in the secret gay party scene 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.040 in Melbourne, and they're involved in drag parties as well. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.080 I'd love you to tell us everything you know about that. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.720 Yes, so it is a fascinating part of Melbourne. History 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.480 and of Australian history more generally. Monte's story was she 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.480 had quite a few gay friends in the nineteen twenties 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.680 and thirties. Of course they wouldn't have used the word 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.880 gay then, but that's the word we'd use now. And 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.840 I think she found particularly that when her relationship with 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.400 Debbie Sutton, the woman she had absolutely loved, broke up, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.360 she was really devastated and she couldn't talk about it 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:54.240 to her family or to most of her friends because 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.040 they didn't understand. But her male gay friends did understand. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.560 In one of her interviews, she said they really saved 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.320 her life because she could talk to them about the 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.520 relationship and they knew where she was coming from. So 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.400 at that point she became much more engaged in this 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.080 sort of secret gay world in Melbourne, and she started 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.520 attending house parties which were held just sort of out 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.320 in the suburbs of Melbourne in big houses with gardens, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.720 usually at the weekend, and people could dress up. There 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.400 was even a wedding between two of her male friends, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.320 and Monty was the best man, dressed up in her 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.280 smart sort of tuxedo and boat high at this wedding. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.560 So it is quite a fascinating bit of history. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.240 And so tell us more about So they were drag parties, 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.440 so the women were dressed as men, the men were 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:49.280 dressed as women. 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.880 Yes, so they often involved dressing up. You know. It 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.200 was just a free space where people could express their 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.760 identity in the way that they wanted. It was of 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.960 course very much hidden away because of course homosexuality was 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.520 a crime at the time, so for the men it 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:12.200 was very important to keep their sexual identity away from 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.560 the prying eyes of media or you know, the police. 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.119 And Tessa, was there a particular part of Melbourne that 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.520 was a hub for these queer parties. 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.960 The main parties that Monte seems to have gone to 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.719 were at a private house called Lavender Lodge, which was 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:34.600 Inferntry Gully, so out of the city center. Quite a 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.160 big house apparently where they had these weekend house parties. 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.440 Ah okay, And for those not from Melbourne, that's the 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:46.840 base of the Dandenong Rangers. Very interesting. Now take us 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.720 forward to World War Two because Monte's knowledge of Japanese 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:52.959 became quite useful during the war, didn't it. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.000 Yes, So during the war she was recruited to be 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.320 a warden at the intern camp that was set up 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:08.840 in Tatura in rural Victoria to house Japanese civilians enemy 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.879 aliens as they were called then. It was a huge camp. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:18.520 It also had sections which held other enemy aliens, Italians 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.639 and Germans and so on, but Monty was in the 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.119 Japanese section. She seems to have been had mainly to 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:32.320 teach the children of Japanese internees. But in fact, the 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.880 slight difficulty was that I think the authorities probably overestimated 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.520 how much Japanese she knew, so she'd studied very hard, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.240 but her Japanese was not really good enough to teach 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.960 classes to native Japanese speakers, so she ended up more, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.280 you know, taking the children on outings and generally kind 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.160 of looking after the welfare of the Japanese civilians who 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.119 were interned in these camps. And I think one of 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.840 the important things to remember is that when you talk 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.959 about Japanese being in turn during the war, many of 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.919 them were not Japanese as we would understand it today, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:16.760 because Taiwanese and Koreans were treated as Japanese because they 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.920 were part of the Japanese Empire. And then there were 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.439 also quite a number of Australian and other women married 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.920 to Japanese men, including some Aboriginal Australian women, and they 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.520 and their children were also all in turn during the war. 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.520 And Monte continued teaching after the war, didn't she. 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.880 Yeah, So after the war she moved on to something 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.800 that was perhaps not entirely different, but in a very 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.840 different setting. She went to work in Bonnagilla, which was 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.680 the reception center set up for new migrants who came 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:58.159 immediately after the war. Many of these were refugees, displaced 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:05.240 people from Central Europe, and she really enjoyed working there. 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.800 She found the atmosphere completely different, of course, from the 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:14.359 rather repressive atmosphere of working in an internment camp. Although 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:19.520 conditions in Bonagilla and also Summer's Camp, which was another 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.120 reception center that she worked in, the conditions there were 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:28.280 not great. It was fairly tough for most of the migrants. 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.760 It was just such a relief, you know, to have 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.520 got out of the dangerous situation that they'd been in Europe. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.560 And Monty made very good friends with a number of 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.919 the people that she taught in these reception centers and 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.080 went on being friends with them for the rest of 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:45.520 her life. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.320 She must have absolutely loved being a teacher, because she 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.080 continued teaching for decades more, didn't she. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.320 Well, the interesting thing is that she was ambivalent about teaching. 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:01.240 She really didn't like conventional school teaching. In fact, sometimes 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.960 you know in her interviews she would say she hated it. 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.160 She didn't like having to discipline people, and I don't 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:13.959 think she liked being disciplined herself. But she enjoyed teaching adults, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.639 and she enjoyed teaching in more relaxed settings. So she 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.680 had loved teaching the theater children before the First World War, 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.119 and later on in her life she went on to 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.359 teach in an English school in the New Hebrides Vanuatu 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.800 as we would say today, And again that was a 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.320 very small school. She ran the entire school and she 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.040 could make her own kind of happy teaching atmosphere, and 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.080 she loved teaching there as well. She was already in 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.200 her seventies by that time, so that was quite remarkable 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:47.800 in itself. 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:49.880 And then she continued into her eighties. 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.080 Yes, so she went back to Japan in her eighties 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.320 and taught English in Japan for several months. 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.399 And then beyond there. What did she do after that? 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.280 Beyond that, she was still teaching, you know, private classes. 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:09.840 She taught Japanese private classes, certainly into her nineties, possibly 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.760 into her hundreds, I'm not quite sure about that. And 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:17.680 she also taught some English language classes for foreigners living 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:22.320 in Melbourne, including some Japanese people. And in addition to that, 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:28.000 she became quite an active host for foreign students coming 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:33.600 to Australia. And as Australia gradually started to open up 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:38.359 more to Asia, we had the Colombo Scheme and students 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.680 from Japan, Indonesia and other parts of Asia started coming 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:46.600 to Australia. Monty was very active in hosting and helping them. 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.160 And she actually received an award from the Japanese government 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:52.359 for all the work that she'd done over the years, 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:53.800 didn't she Yes. 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.679 She received an award that she was extremely proud of 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.399 for her role as a sort of informal ambassador in 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:04.320 a way between Australia and Japan. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.200 Now take us forward to the take us to the 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:11.040 nineteen eighties and the controversy that we mentioned at the 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.359 beginning when she was when she was appointed as a 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.960 roving ambassador for Brisbane Expo eighty eight. It's also bizarre 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.200 it's actually a little bit hard to believe. But could 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:23.400 you take us through the events of nineteen eighty five. 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.280 Yes, So there she was. She was one hundred and three, 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:34.000 and she was this marvelous old lady who had a 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:38.879 great memory, was a great speaker. She had been involved 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:43.359 in the Expo one hundred years earlier, and she had 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.040 this great connection to Japan. And this was the time 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:51.560 when Queensland was busy developing ties economic ties with Japan, 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.880 encouraging Japanese investment in tourism and real estate and so on. 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:01.000 So she looked like the perfect person to a roving 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.880 ambassador for Brisbane's Expo eighty eight. And she was invited 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.840 to do that, and she was delighted and very happy 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:14.520 to accept. But then there was a little controversy because 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:20.160 shortly before she'd been issued this invitation, she'd already given 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:25.000 an interview to a gay magazine where she talked about 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.240 her relationships with women, and particularly the fact that she'd 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.800 had this great love affair with Debbie in the nineteen twenties. 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.560 Sorry, just to clarify, was this the first time that 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:37.760 she had ever come out as a lesbian. 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:43.199 Yes, so that in the first article, which appeared just 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:46.239 before she was appointed. She did come out, but they 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:50.439 didn't identify her by name. There was a photograph of 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:52.800 her with the article, so I guess her friends knew 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.640