Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. We've had
Speaker 1: some interesting guests on my Catch Killers who have taken
Speaker 1: us to all sorts of places, but never where Today's
Speaker 1: guest is going to take us. To say that I'm
Speaker 1: a bit nervous is an understatement. Today's guest, retired Detective
Speaker 1: Chief Inspector Pamela Young, is a fascinating person. Now I
Speaker 1: can say that with confidence because not only did I
Speaker 1: work with her, in homicide for twenty years. She was
Speaker 1: also my partner, and we lived together for a long time.
Speaker 1: If you want to know what it's like living in
Speaker 1: the home with two highly strung out, hard working homicide detectives,
Speaker 1: you're going to find out. Pam's someone who I had
Speaker 1: total respect for as a detective. I learned so much
Speaker 1: from her, and despite how hard I worked, I could
Speaker 1: never match her dedication. She gave so much of herself
Speaker 1: to investigating murders. Today we're going to talk about a
Speaker 1: career and leading some of the country's biggest investigations, including
Speaker 1: the family law court bombings, heading up the detective's training unit,
Speaker 1: and life as a woman in a very male dominated
Speaker 1: world of major crime. That's what I hope to be
Speaker 1: talking about anyway. But I've never been able to influence
Speaker 1: or control Pam, so I'm sure she'll take the conversation
Speaker 1: where she chooses, wherever that might be. I reckon we're
Speaker 1: going to have a bit of fun, but I am
Speaker 1: also worried she's going to reveal more about me than
Speaker 1: I'm with. Let's get this started. Pay me young, Welcome
Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you?
Speaker 1: Are you nervous?
Speaker 2: A little bit?
Speaker 1: I'm very nervous. I'm very nervous.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: This has been a long time coming. I've tried to
Speaker 1: get you on the podcast for about I Reckon three
Speaker 1: years at this stage and the Planets of a Line,
Speaker 1: and I finally got you in the studio.
Speaker 2: You wore me down.
Speaker 1: Just keep chipping away, chipping away. Now. I want to
Speaker 1: clarify upfront with the introduction. People know that we live
Speaker 1: together for a very long time, and I'll probably refer
Speaker 1: to you as young and I'm sure you're going to
Speaker 1: call me Jubilan when I say something stupid or even
Speaker 1: as a term affection. But that's just how we communicate.
Speaker 1: It wasn't when we're together.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it was my I'm the one who
Speaker 2: initiated it because I didn't think Gary suited you. I
Speaker 2: still don't. Gary is quite a homely name. Where's your
Speaker 2: You're like a combat unit, so like Mayo and Maverick.
Speaker 1: Oh, so you.
Speaker 2: Should be called Jubilan. And when I start calling you Gary,
Speaker 2: are you've completely changed?
Speaker 1: So I always thought when you called me Garyo, you
Speaker 1: were disappointed I've done something, done something wrong. But anyway,
Speaker 1: it's going to be an interesting chat. I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to it. I want to ask you first up your
Speaker 1: policing career. How long were you in the police.
Speaker 2: For thirty three years?
Speaker 1: Okay, what's the proudest thing about your policing career? What
Speaker 1: are you most you look back at your career and
Speaker 1: what are you proud about.
Speaker 2: Ah, that I've faced the worst of humanity, but i
Speaker 2: still believe in humanity. I think that's a huge achievement.
Speaker 2: All the battles behind the scenes, the ones that aren't
Speaker 2: known about, not even too victim's families for instance, with
Speaker 2: fighting for resources and all the competition around that with
Speaker 2: your other peers and harmonious teams. You get to such
Speaker 2: a wide variety of different skill level and motivation, but
Speaker 2: you have to extract from them the very best. So
Speaker 2: I've managed to do those things quite a number of times.
Speaker 2: So that makes me very proud. And those relationships have
Speaker 2: lasted despite me putting pressure on particularly my staff. So
Speaker 2: I'm proud of that. And probably the twenty one life
Speaker 2: sentences and just nudging a thousand years of imprisonment that's
Speaker 2: been handed out because of the efforts of me and
Speaker 2: my teams.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. I'm glad. You look back at it
Speaker 1: look back at the career proud of what you achieved.
Speaker 1: And it was that you talk there about the battles
Speaker 1: behind the scene battles. Chasing killers is hard, going the
Speaker 1: courts hard, but the internal politic and the dynamics of
Speaker 1: leading or being involved in major crime investigations, that was
Speaker 1: another battle in itself, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, it's because we're always terribly under resourced, so
Speaker 2: you have to take charge of your job and make
Speaker 2: it the number one over your peers. Jobs are who
Speaker 2: you also respect and want to do well. But you're
Speaker 2: finding for your victims and that's really all that matters
Speaker 2: at that time.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what you should. And every time
Speaker 1: I got in the conflict, and as you know, I
Speaker 1: got into a fair bit so did you in different ways,
Speaker 1: but we got in the conflict, I always thought, well,
Speaker 1: that's my job. I'm looking after my investigation. My investigation
Speaker 1: is the most important investigation. And I'm saying that from
Speaker 1: a selfish point of view, but that's the commitment that
Speaker 1: you give to the victims. In conversations. We've had many
Speaker 1: conversations that we've had over the last couple of years.
Speaker 1: I know something that you take great. The fact that
Speaker 1: old team members still reach out to you even since
Speaker 1: you've retired, and keep you informed on what's going on,
Speaker 1: or invite you out for a drink, or keep you
Speaker 1: updated long coal matters that must meet a lot to.
Speaker 2: It means so much more than they know. I believe
Speaker 2: they think they get something out of it, but they
Speaker 2: don't realize I get so much more out of that
Speaker 2: continued contact and that enduring respect and dare I say
Speaker 2: love that we have for each other, because it's because
Speaker 2: you're dealing in matters of blood, so real and otherwise
Speaker 2: like brotherhood and sisterhood.
Speaker 1: All right, now, let's move on to your childhood. Now.
Speaker 1: I know a little bit about your childhood because I
Speaker 1: grew up in the same area. We both grew up
Speaker 1: in Epping. You went to Cheltenham Girls High School. I
Speaker 1: went to Eping Boys High School. There's a lot of,
Speaker 1: let's say, collaboration between two schools. I didn't know you
Speaker 1: when we were growing up, but I think you beside
Speaker 1: my mate Martin Lee or his family. What was it
Speaker 1: like growing up in the Epine area?
Speaker 2: Very stable, very tree lined. Particularly my family home we
Speaker 2: had a large block of land and Mum particularly mum,
Speaker 2: but with Dad made a beautiful, big garden. So I
Speaker 2: just remember growing up in a meadow and though I
Speaker 2: did find it not exciting enough and not what I
Speaker 2: wanted for myself then or now.
Speaker 1: No, we're both broken out of the suburbs, haven't we
Speaker 1: in a city is the way to go. But there
Speaker 1: was a couple of proud moments in your childhood, and yeah,
Speaker 1: because we know each other so well, there's not well,
Speaker 1: there is no secrets. But two of your proudest moments
Speaker 1: were winning the best on the dance floor at school dance.
Speaker 1: And I think you were dancing two years in a row,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. And your song year one was
Speaker 1: dancing Queen.
Speaker 2: I believe that was my specialty. And then Pretender's Brass.
Speaker 1: In Pockets was the second year in a row.
Speaker 2: Why do we remember these things.
Speaker 1: Because you would tell so many people, But I was
Speaker 1: a dancing queen of two school dances.
Speaker 2: I think it all came down. I wasn't a good
Speaker 2: dance so I just had very big hair and I
Speaker 2: flicked it around a lot, and I just think it's
Speaker 2: the only thing that could be seen from the stage
Speaker 2: where the judge was. That's That's what I think happened.
Speaker 1: That that was the move. Now, another interesting fact about
Speaker 1: you weren't going to join the police force. You actually
Speaker 1: auditioned to NIDER at one stage. You wanted to do
Speaker 1: something in the in that acting film I did.
Speaker 2: I did and was roundly rejected. I didn't have.
Speaker 1: Any big hair didn't count.
Speaker 2: No big hair didn't count. I didn't have any background,
Speaker 2: family or friends, or no network of anyone who had
Speaker 2: done that or was in that industry. And I just thought,
Speaker 2: I just thought, I want to do it. I'll be enthusiastic,
Speaker 2: they'll have me. So. But it was not on stage
Speaker 2: so much I might not have said no, but it
Speaker 2: was a stage managing, and it was about bringing all
Speaker 2: the different elements together in a timed, reliable way, which
Speaker 2: really came in handy. It clearly was a strength then.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known it at the time, but certainly
Speaker 2: comes in handy when you're arranging operations eighty plus personnel.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was I do see a link there.
Speaker 2: And also goodness with the theatrics in court, a little
Speaker 2: bit of a background helps.
Speaker 1: There is a little across and when you're actually a
Speaker 1: working detective in homicide you're also an amateur actor of
Speaker 1: some little plays that were being put on, which is
Speaker 1: a bit unusual for someone at one stage investigating homicides.
Speaker 1: Then I've got to get I'm on stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's when I still had a
Speaker 2: lightness of being. So I was in the job and
Speaker 2: in homicide, but I still had a lightness that that
Speaker 2: got lost, got buried, got removed from me through work.
Speaker 2: So I like to I'm glad you're sort of helping
Speaker 2: me reminisce of that time. Yeah, because it was a
Speaker 2: happy time. I had some balance then, Yeah, and you
Speaker 2: reminded me I might get back into it.
Speaker 1: Well this question audition. Just look into the camera when
Speaker 1: you're talking. But yeah, I think that's a good thing
Speaker 1: to have an interest outside the cops, because we do.
Speaker 1: We you and I and will talk about talk about
Speaker 1: your commitment to your job in detail, but we do.
Speaker 1: Homicide is something that you can just get sucked down
Speaker 1: the whole, can't you. It's just you can always be
Speaker 1: doing something and you can forgo everything else in your life,
Speaker 1: and you know, little pleasures like you're saying, doing amateur acting,
Speaker 1: you can just well it's not that important.
Speaker 2: Get back to this case, yes, and I believe you
Speaker 2: need to do that to be at your best and
Speaker 2: to gain the depth and minutia of experience that you need.
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced that you can be a part time
Speaker 2: homicide squad detective. I support and understand why some people
Speaker 2: need to be that, I really do, but I don't
Speaker 2: think it delivers the results.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you finished.
Speaker 2: And then the flip side to that is the sacrifice
Speaker 2: that you make by do well.
Speaker 1: I think if you put your hand up, and I've
Speaker 1: said this many a time, and you know I firmly
Speaker 1: believe it. I know you understand what I'm saying, that
Speaker 1: you don't have to be in homicide. So if you
Speaker 1: can't give one hundred percent, don't be in homicide, and
Speaker 1: don't strap around calling yourself a homicide detective. If you're
Speaker 1: not prepared to put in the work you go, are
Speaker 1: you going to support me?
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I just think, just wondering how
Speaker 2: many times I've heard you.
Speaker 1: Say that ad nauseum nase, because it used to shit
Speaker 1: people that I want to be a homicide detective, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to work on weekends and I can't
Speaker 1: work in the afternoon. Yes, and all that, and you
Speaker 1: understand work life balance, as we both understand, is important
Speaker 1: because your life can go track, but there's a commitment
Speaker 1: when you're investigating homesite.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was the first and only inspector to recruit
Speaker 2: into the homicide squad a mother. My goodness, it was
Speaker 2: seen is such a radical thing because there's assumptions about
Speaker 2: time commitment and not being available and having to perhaps
Speaker 2: rush away. There's ill health in the family, but you know,
Speaker 2: we meant to be a bit normal as well. So
Speaker 2: I thought it was important to try. And so when
Speaker 2: I had an enthusiastic mother, i e. Detective senior, comfortable mother,
Speaker 2: and she was really keen wanting to try it. She
Speaker 2: also had a long distance to travel to get to
Speaker 2: the office. I felt she was going to give one
Speaker 2: hundred percent of whatever that was she could give. It
Speaker 2: really worked well, she did, and though at the end
Speaker 2: of the time was two so years later she you know,
Speaker 2: her children were older and a little bit more demanding,
Speaker 2: so she had to leave. But it was it showed it.
Speaker 1: Possible, well if if you set the benchmark or of
Speaker 1: bringing mothers in. I had the same thing on myeams
Speaker 1: and I thought they were great. And if they're committed
Speaker 1: to the job and they're committed to their family, sometimes
Speaker 1: one has to give and they might, as you said,
Speaker 1: they're the person after two or three years. But definitely
Speaker 1: definitely give them a go. It's not not a barrier
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be. It certainly was. It was seen as radical,
Speaker 2: and I'm very conscious of the fact we talk about
Speaker 2: it in these terms like, oh, yes, we brought in
Speaker 2: our mother, isn't that good? And so you know, as
Speaker 2: though there an accept exception to the rule in no
Speaker 2: other workplace.
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose the real reality of homicide is that
Speaker 1: you get that phone call and you could be away
Speaker 1: for the next couple of weeks. Literally out the door
Speaker 1: in half an hour and you're away for a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks. So it's a hard juggle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the fact that it's not just about them,
Speaker 2: it's about the team needing them. Yes, they're assigned partner
Speaker 2: needing them. And of course now we couldn't expand that
Speaker 2: into men who take on the main parental caring role.
Speaker 2: But anyway, it was Yeah, I just remember it was
Speaker 2: quite It was well worth doing, but seen as quite radical.
Speaker 1: Well, you always were radical? Why did you decide to
Speaker 1: join the place? So?
Speaker 2: Really, I have no family background with it at all.
Speaker 2: I wasn't focused on any particular career. I was a
Speaker 2: little bit a late developer through school and not overly motivated,
Speaker 2: but I was good at a few things. I was
Speaker 2: always been a very physical person, much stronger and faster
Speaker 2: than most of the girls at my girls school as
Speaker 2: a girl's school, But nonetheless that gave me confidence physically.
Speaker 2: I was raised in a very decent family, with a strong, tall,
Speaker 2: a good kind father, and two kind brothers, and so
Speaker 2: joining a male dominated job didn't scare me. I didn't
Speaker 2: give it a thought, so because I'd had that good background,
Speaker 2: and then my mother is always very much ahead of
Speaker 2: her time, a very strong woman, So I had that
Speaker 2: combined confidence, I guess. So that all came when I
Speaker 2: realized these things that came at a time in the
Speaker 2: mid early eight nineteen eighties where they were trying to
Speaker 2: increase the six percent police women in the job to
Speaker 2: a radical twenty five percent?
Speaker 1: What's this world coming to?
Speaker 2: And they still haven't reached that percentage much much closer,
Speaker 2: of course, So at that time they were doing the
Speaker 2: recruitment runs, and there were all these fans who looking pamphlets,
Speaker 2: and my very good girlfriend who I've known since we
Speaker 2: were ten, Jeanette.
Speaker 1: She shout out to Jeannette. Hey, Jeannette shout out to Jeanette.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she had pamphlets. She ended up not pursuing
Speaker 2: it and taking a career as a graphic designer. But
Speaker 2: I saw the Panthers designle. That's exciting, that's our door,
Speaker 2: that's physical, that's that's interesting. I've always had this enormous curiosity.
Speaker 2: So I did not join thinking I would really like
Speaker 2: to help people. I'll be helping the community. Was I
Speaker 2: don't think I even thought of it in those terms
Speaker 2: at all. I didn't get hooked, and of course that
Speaker 2: became my driver. Absolutely, that compassion that I found in
Speaker 2: myself was striking. But yes, the reason I joined was
Speaker 2: for excitement indoor outdoor job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, how'd you feel going down the academy. What
Speaker 1: was your first impressions in the academ Uh?
Speaker 2: It was fine, meaning it was good and trying to
Speaker 2: think of nothing peculiar happened. Why am I saying that?
Speaker 1: Tell us if something peculiar happened in the police academy.
Speaker 1: So that was you joined before me. I think you
Speaker 1: were one or two classes before me. So I know
Speaker 1: the vibe down there. It was certainly not as polished
Speaker 1: as is now. There was, Yeah, a bit of the
Speaker 1: old old school mentality.
Speaker 2: Yes, though I think they knew they were getting in.
Speaker 2: I would have been the first or second class where
Speaker 2: they aimed for this twenty five percent, So I think
Speaker 2: they had gone through a transition themselves, the trainers, especially
Speaker 2: physical trainers, and the lecturers about language and various things.
Speaker 2: Because I didn't find it. I didn't find it confronting.
Speaker 2: I found it tough. I found it physically demanding in
Speaker 2: a good way. I found the ten k's ten k
Speaker 2: runs a nightmare. I just still still do. But where
Speaker 2: the ten k runs helped was this lovely thing happened
Speaker 2: because I was really bad at them and I was
Speaker 2: going to fail, and I found a group of you know,
Speaker 2: three or four young men from my class. They would
Speaker 2: just start jogging with me for the last few kilometers
Speaker 2: after they'd finished their ten came help you alone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so I that was my first taste of the
Speaker 2: camaraderie that you get in a sort of select industry
Speaker 2: in a way and the sense of culture, the positive
Speaker 2: culture that comes out of that. So that was a
Speaker 2: good thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, then your first experience in the police station Eastwood?
Speaker 1: Was that your first station?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ride, how'd you feel.
Speaker 1: Walking in on your first day? Uniform, shiny new uniform
Speaker 1: and the gun on your hip and everything else.
Speaker 2: Excited and ready? But I had no idea what I
Speaker 2: was ready for. But I was ready. I studied, and
Speaker 2: I'd passed, and I'd ironed my uniform and again just
Speaker 2: faith in which ultimately was a brotherhood. So again with
Speaker 2: that family experience I've had so and largely I found
Speaker 2: that's exactly what it was like. So I guess one
Speaker 2: startlingk thing to me was the amount of pornographic magazines
Speaker 2: in the in the bathroom because no one had ever
Speaker 2: thought that women would work in police stations or every
Speaker 2: police station in the state only had male toilets. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so of course we had to use them, and so
Speaker 2: of course I needed to. But there were these stacks
Speaker 2: of pornographic magazine. So here I am, within my first week,
Speaker 2: shiny new and I'm thinking, well, I don't like them.
Speaker 2: I picked them up, big piles, walk them out to
Speaker 2: the skip bin in the backyard, pass the police cars
Speaker 2: and dump them in the bin. I and then they reappear,
Speaker 2: and I do the same thing, not once, and I
Speaker 2: keep doing it until they no longer are in what
Speaker 2: is now a unisex bathroom. And no one challenged me
Speaker 2: on it. And to me that's odd, But to me
Speaker 2: that's good. Things had changed. They saw it had changed.
Speaker 2: So ah, I'm just curious why I was so confident
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you that's in your nature. You
Speaker 1: always you do the hard stuff, and you're quite intimidating.
Speaker 1: And that's why i'd say people are People didn't challenge
Speaker 1: you on them because there be a lot of young
Speaker 1: police women because you're only virtually a kid at the
Speaker 1: time there that would have got harassed and ridiculed and
Speaker 1: ostracized and all that.
Speaker 2: But you meant or just left them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you managed to navigate your way through that. What
Speaker 1: draw you to an interesting detectives? What was that about?
Speaker 2: So just a little bit still answering your last question,
Speaker 2: but I'll end up with the detectives.
Speaker 1: I knew you'd take me, just okay.
Speaker 2: The thing, the big thing that struck me other than
Speaker 2: that bit of behavior was domestic violence and the insidious
Speaker 2: nature of drug addiction. I had not had any experience
Speaker 2: of violence at all or drugs at all, not just personally,
Speaker 2: none of my family, none of my my circle. So
Speaker 2: to see the amount of brutality in both those areas
Speaker 2: there was out there in an area regarded quite well
Speaker 2: in middle course, was really shocking to me. It was
Speaker 2: my first real eye opener about how other people live,
Speaker 2: and the vulnerability of women, and in hindsight, how useless
Speaker 2: we were to protect the women in domestic violence situations.
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we used
Speaker 1: to go to domestic violence situations. We'd walk in there
Speaker 1: and the house could be an absolute mess. Obviously something
Speaker 1: terrible had gone on, But if no one was complaining,
Speaker 1: it was almost like you walk out the door. Back
Speaker 1: in those days, it was yes, absolutely and the poor
Speaker 1: and the poor woman is yeah, thank god, we've progressed
Speaker 1: past it. But the woman be sitting there terrified. Do
Speaker 1: you want to make a complain? No, No, it's all good,
Speaker 1: nothing happened.
Speaker 2: That's the shame that intelligent police. Police are meant to protect.
Speaker 2: That doesn't matter what else goes on. We're meant to
Speaker 2: protect people couldn't see that. Asking a victim, usually a female,
Speaker 2: in front of the offender, would you like to come
Speaker 2: with us and make a statement about this man who's
Speaker 2: standing so close I to intimidate, but nonetheless in the
Speaker 2: same anywhere, in the same environment. Why didn't it surprise
Speaker 2: us that they all said, I'll be fine, it's just
Speaker 2: this time. And not only that, then we actually walked away.
Speaker 1: So we had it wrong, didn't we.
Speaker 2: He also had no capacity to take out apprehended violence
Speaker 2: or on their behalf. Either they had to complain, they
Speaker 2: had to formally complain, and we.
Speaker 1: Would walk away. Well there's nothing we can.
Speaker 2: Do, yes, And when you're busy, you think, oh, well
Speaker 2: we tried, yeah, they let's move on.
Speaker 1: We stopped, stopped it happening then, But then you go
Speaker 1: back to the same place time and time again. I
Speaker 1: do like the fact and that is very current in
Speaker 1: what's happening with all the murders, domestic related murders. But
Speaker 1: we're realizing that something has to be done and we've
Speaker 1: just got to change the way that we approach these things.
Speaker 2: But confronting this big topic, but you know, anyone raising
Speaker 2: suns has a big role. It's not just a police problem.
Speaker 2: I agree with you.
Speaker 1: We have to have to educate that right right from
Speaker 1: the start. That's not on And hopefully we start looking
Speaker 1: at that because you hear like politicians are going to
Speaker 1: get tougher by our laws, this, this and that. But
Speaker 1: it's about education too. We're going to make sure that
Speaker 1: people don't think that's acceptable.
Speaker 2: Yes, basic principle is we are all equal. We are
Speaker 2: all equal. You are not better than me.
Speaker 1: Are you talking to me directly?
Speaker 2: You got.
Speaker 1: Sorry, you're talking in a general sense.
Speaker 2: And if you think you're better than me, it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean you can hit me when you feel like. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not a very complex.
Speaker 1: Complicated, it's pretty simple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but we've all been you know, if
Speaker 2: it was happening to men, it would have been solved
Speaker 2: by now. I'm totally convinced of that. On that theme
Speaker 2: and so many others.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I love I love your attitude, always always there
Speaker 1: to point these things out. That's yeah, that's great. Can
Speaker 1: because this is I Catch Killers as in I Catch
Speaker 1: Killers my podcast. Can we move on to the detectives? Now?
Speaker 1: Are you finish with the uniform bit? Okay? What what
Speaker 1: got your interest in going to detectives.
Speaker 2: So after two years then I believe in uniform. So
Speaker 2: we all had to stay in uniform to years. Then
Speaker 2: you get choice, and towards the end of the two
Speaker 2: years you were sent out. If you're lucky to have
Speaker 2: a short period at different things such as the highway patrol,
Speaker 2: scientific prosecutors and detectives. Plus I had some luck breaking
Speaker 2: a small but effective shoplifting ring in my local area,
Speaker 2: so I.
Speaker 1: Organized crime at the school tuch shop.
Speaker 2: So I had a bit of a bit of a reputation,
Speaker 2: but primarily because my brain grew so through the academy
Speaker 2: and so school. It didn't do much through the academy.
Speaker 2: I loved law and policy in my brain expanded, it grew,
Speaker 2: and I wanted a mental challenge, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: see cases through to feed that enormous curiosity I had.
Speaker 2: Whereas uniform people as a general rule certainly then had
Speaker 2: to pass on anything interesting to the detective. So I
Speaker 2: wanted to be part of the more interesting briefs of evidence.
Speaker 1: Well, I felt that it was always good that you
Speaker 1: got to follow it through. You saw the crime and
Speaker 1: took it to the end. It was hard passing on
Speaker 1: from uniform, but I'm really mindful with this podcast because
Speaker 1: so many detectives I get in that we've got to
Speaker 1: give a shout out to the uniform police, because both
Speaker 1: you and I know and our careers are defined by
Speaker 1: being detectives. The hard work is at frontline policing. Quite often,
Speaker 1: they're the ones that got to respond the agree more.
Speaker 2: And I say it as often as I can. They
Speaker 2: have the toughest job, just the amount of equipment and
Speaker 2: the sequence with which they're meant to use it, and
Speaker 2: if they dare use it in a different sequence, the
Speaker 2: number of questions they have to answer and them and
Speaker 2: I would put child abuse investigators up there in all this,
Speaker 2: maybe in all law enforcement agencies, they're the groups that
Speaker 2: do it the most.
Speaker 1: Can we throw in crime scene too, because we've all
Speaker 1: had that. We turn up at that murder scene and
Speaker 1: we do what we do as homicide detectives, and then
Speaker 1: we leave the poor crime scene person that's usually there
Speaker 1: on their own there for the next twenty four hours,
Speaker 1: going meticulously through a bloodstained room. They do it do
Speaker 1: it tough as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, But I won't be drawn to say that they're
Speaker 2: the same as street cups and chart abuse investigators.
Speaker 1: All right, they'll take that off.
Speaker 2: And you know how much I love them, Yeah, PHECSIC officers.
Speaker 1: But all right, because we have got a lot of history,
Speaker 1: I think with this podcast, and it's going to go
Speaker 1: for a while, I can tell that we're going to
Speaker 1: throw in some fun facts. And there was a job
Speaker 1: that we worked on, and that's probably the wrong way
Speaker 1: to start at the fun fun fact the Central Coase rapist,
Speaker 1: the serial rapists that we worked on together for a while.
Speaker 1: I think Paul Jacob, who you know, the influence has
Speaker 1: had a micreer. He was running it, then he went
Speaker 1: to another job, and then you took over the investigation.
Speaker 1: And five women and a child had been raped in
Speaker 1: a very violent way. So it was a horrible offense.
Speaker 1: I was working as an investigator and you and I
Speaker 1: had a job to do, which is when you're thinking
Speaker 1: of joining the police, you don't you don't think about this,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure you can remember how we were sitting
Speaker 1: in the bushes watching men masturbate, and when they ejaculated,
Speaker 1: we had to go and creep down into the sand
Speaker 1: and fine the seamen. Do you want to take the
Speaker 1: story from there? Because it's rather bizarre.
Speaker 2: So it is really bizarre. But the weather was nicer
Speaker 2: on the beach. And then then you had to plan
Speaker 2: your because you never had they left yet, Like you
Speaker 2: couldn't go up there.
Speaker 1: You still wait till they're finished. The decided to move on.
Speaker 2: And that they had left, had they left or were
Speaker 2: they just no? They had left around the next next
Speaker 2: Sandy and the wondering.
Speaker 1: Why so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very very very very bizarre. So yes, and we
Speaker 2: we I don't think we were planning on doing it.
Speaker 2: So we ended up finding some sticks that had a
Speaker 2: slight paddle effect and some plastic bags.
Speaker 1: I think, so, I don't know. I don't like to
Speaker 1: think about it too much, but I remember thinking, this
Speaker 1: is what our world has come in.
Speaker 2: Oh, but we were worse, yeah, because we had no
Speaker 2: luck with all our seamen samples, Sandy seamen samples.
Speaker 1: But I don't I don't think you're in on the
Speaker 1: arrest with the masturbator who we got the sample of
Speaker 1: the semen from. So what it was that there was
Speaker 1: DNA with the left at the crime scenes from these
Speaker 1: serious sexual assaults. So this person that we're keeping an
Speaker 1: eye on that just as we're watching him, he just
Speaker 1: start started. There's a number of men on that particular
Speaker 1: beach did start started to masturbate, so we get the
Speaker 1: semen so we can do a DNA in comparison. And
Speaker 1: then it came back and that wasn't our rapist, so
Speaker 1: that was obviously a huge disappointment. But I did go
Speaker 1: around to his place and knock on the door because
Speaker 1: there wasn't a fence. I don't know what it's called.
Speaker 1: Went round there and his wife answered the door, and
Speaker 1: I took great pleasure. It's great pleasure in that, and said,
Speaker 1: is John or whatever his name here, Yes, yes, I'll
Speaker 1: get him. And he came out, Can I speak to you?
Speaker 1: And I said, I think you probably want to speak
Speaker 1: to me on your own, but if you want your
Speaker 1: wife to listen, I'm not embarrassed about anything I've done.
Speaker 1: You can say this in front of my wife.
Speaker 2: It's lovely.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, where do we start? And then he
Speaker 1: went to court and that was the most well prepared
Speaker 1: brief for a wilful and obscene exposure. We have DNA
Speaker 1: links to the semen that we found in the sand,
Speaker 1: but yeah, they're just some of the stranger things you
Speaker 1: do policing. But to me, that and I won't say
Speaker 1: that particular job was. Well, it's funny. You can reflect
Speaker 1: and you think you're never going to do that in
Speaker 1: your life. But that was the excitement of police work,
Speaker 1: wasn't You never knew what you were going to do
Speaker 1: or what where you were going to end up.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not too sure those two things are connected
Speaker 2: to the excitement of policing and collecting semen samples on
Speaker 2: the beach. I think the seamen samples on the beach
Speaker 2: it's almost like one of those sayings you have to say.
Speaker 1: To say plenty of times to pronounce it properly, and
Speaker 1: it's not easy to It's not other people.
Speaker 2: Should try and say it exactly. So what I think
Speaker 2: the shows to me, it's a demonstration on what we're
Speaker 2: prepared to do. And we weren't junior then we were sergeants.
Speaker 1: And again, so you do whatever.
Speaker 2: It takes, and if that is climbing around on a
Speaker 2: beach one watching men masturbate, climbing on the beach, collecting
Speaker 2: it because you believe it will solve a crime, you
Speaker 2: do it. Some people won't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, was it interesting? Okay, so major crime detectives,
Speaker 1: you wanted to follow jobs through and that how did
Speaker 1: you find your way in the major crime because back
Speaker 1: in those days, and this is pretty royal commission and
Speaker 1: all that, it was pretty selective on how you found
Speaker 1: your way into major crime. And I dare say for
Speaker 1: a woman to find a way in the major crime
Speaker 1: that was outrageous.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, occasionally you had one token woman there, but you
Speaker 1: managed to make a career. How did that eventuate?
Speaker 2: Yes, So, after a few years in general detectives over
Speaker 2: at Chatswood, I started to have a feeling to want
Speaker 2: to which is where I got my designation when I
Speaker 2: was in general detectives, and then I felt I was
Speaker 2: building confidence I was good at things.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: I would have liked to go to the major crime
Speaker 2: squad North. I believed I had helped contribute a bit
Speaker 2: to the Grundy murder case and so therefore knew a
Speaker 2: few people there.
Speaker 1: That was a lot of pressure that whole time. There
Speaker 1: was six women killed on the north Shore, and it
Speaker 1: was just it was frequent and that he had to
Speaker 1: be stopped or he would have kept killing people.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, so I came across him during a after
Speaker 2: an indecent assault had been reported from a palliative care
Speaker 2: ward and I responded as the afternoon shift Chatswood detectives
Speaker 2: and a few witnesses and staff at the hospital described
Speaker 2: different people, but one of them was a pie salesman.
Speaker 2: So I chased up the pie company and who was
Speaker 2: working that area, and it was a man called John
Speaker 2: Wayne Glover. So I contacted him at home and asked
Speaker 2: for him while I was going to go there or
Speaker 2: him come in, I had no he was in amongst
Speaker 2: a number of suspects. I had no reason to hone
Speaker 2: in and just on him. But he asked for the
Speaker 2: next day. I think his daughter had been at the
Speaker 2: done her HC that day and that was factual, so
Speaker 2: it was for the next day. He didn't show up
Speaker 2: the next day, and I called him his home again
Speaker 2: and his wife answered the phone and said, literally at
Speaker 2: that moment he was in an ambulance being taken to
Speaker 2: hospital having attempted suicide. That information ended up going to
Speaker 2: your squad. Yes, So then that developed into him being
Speaker 2: the suspect. And the thing that they asked me to
Speaker 2: do was I was the first police officer to speak
Speaker 2: with him. They determined to send in a woman, young woman.
Speaker 2: I wasn't even designated a detective. Then they thought if
Speaker 2: they said me in to the hospital that he might
Speaker 2: cooperate and give them a photograph, which was needed to
Speaker 2: identify him for crimes. He was not on recording, certainly
Speaker 2: a photo of him was not. So I went by
Speaker 2: myself as the first time I had met a killer.
Speaker 2: Sitting in a room with one, I very much gave
Speaker 2: him the impression of being naive and I'm not particularly suspicious,
Speaker 2: but look at what help if I can have a polaroid,
Speaker 2: which was what it was then. So I took that polaroid,
Speaker 2: and that polaroid then was used to identify him whilst
Speaker 2: he was still in hospital, so they couldn't do the
Speaker 2: identification of him in the hospital, so they're able to
Speaker 2: get underway with that. But that photo the one of
Speaker 2: him in all the book covers, in all the newspaper
Speaker 2: his eyes are slightly off center. That's a photo that
Speaker 2: I took and he's my first killer.
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations, And that was that was a big one.
Speaker 1: That catch. He was. He was bad.
Speaker 2: But something happened at the end of that job that
Speaker 2: made me think I would not be welcome. Effectively, some
Speaker 2: politics stepped in with bosses. I had no idea what
Speaker 2: it was about, and normous snia comes, well, I don't
Speaker 2: know about these things, and the question is did I
Speaker 2: ever learn? So I thought I wouldn't be welcome there,
Speaker 2: so I ended up applying to major cromes. Were called
Speaker 2: Northwest at Paramatta, so it's really exciting being a squattie.
Speaker 2: There are only two women in about one hundred staff
Speaker 2: outside of the child protection unit, which is where most
Speaker 2: of the women wanted to go and certainly were put.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I had a chance, and I landed
Speaker 2: in the US squed first with oil ooiter rough, gnarly
Speaker 2: man on the inside and out, but you know.
Speaker 1: Was he good to work with? Sometimes the opposite in appearance,
Speaker 1: because it's so it's so important who you get paired with,
Speaker 1: because you can either look forward to work or hate
Speaker 1: going to the opinion on who.
Speaker 2: You've learned a lot and had a big, warm heart,
Speaker 2: which is what I find generally. So yeah, so that's
Speaker 2: where I started, and then I must have done something
Speaker 2: right because of course the network comes in about who's
Speaker 2: good or who's not so good, or what you might
Speaker 2: be attuned to. And I was the first woman to
Speaker 2: get into the space Special Breakers Unit jeez.
Speaker 1: That was that was the old hard heeads. How did
Speaker 1: they for the.
Speaker 2: For any good of which there were four? So and
Speaker 2: I was, I was invited.
Speaker 1: And what what what type of jobs were you?
Speaker 2: So it was in the days of where they were
Speaker 2: actually safe, so they're only security for banks. For businesses
Speaker 2: was a physical safe, very thick with a code or
Speaker 2: a big you know, secure locking mechanism of this funny yes,
Speaker 2: what are they calling it? And there was there were
Speaker 2: gangs organized gangs that would use oxyacettline equipment to and
Speaker 2: other things and explosive devices to break them open. So
Speaker 2: very organized and of course banks and commercial businesses there
Speaker 2: was a lot of money lost. So it was it
Speaker 2: was tough, tough crooks. Therefore the squad was tough. It's
Speaker 2: always seems to be this got to E.
Speaker 1: Creach. Yes, perhaps with the breakers they were like in
Speaker 1: the pecking order in the prison, so they were looked at.
Speaker 1: There there was a stick up guys and the the breakers,
Speaker 1: as in the crooks that were in jail, they were
Speaker 1: always hard, tight crews, so they were the interesting working on.
Speaker 2: And also yeah, large warehouse robberies. These are things that
Speaker 2: I don't think people in the community know much about
Speaker 2: anymore because of security improvements. But there was a time
Speaker 2: when you could with the robbers where you would turn
Speaker 2: up with your shotgun and your balaklava and your mate
Speaker 2: and threatened to shoot the teller and the customers.
Speaker 1: Actually you were talking about the cops turning up and
Speaker 1: the shotgun because we used to it used to be before.
Speaker 1: It just be so simple. We had shotguns.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, there were no screens, there were no alarm buttons,
Speaker 2: and then that you know, they go for the safe,
Speaker 2: so the whole so just I mean, that really was
Speaker 2: the that is that's my biggest memory of those early days.
Speaker 2: The drug the drug industry which mainly heroin flooding the world,
Speaker 2: causing the robberies on the banks, and the safe breaking
Speaker 2: in the warehouse for smokes and you know large get
Speaker 2: like fifty thousand dollars in the eighties was a lot smokes.
Speaker 1: That was that was a big crime.
Speaker 2: That was a big deal about four packs today's price,
Speaker 2: I think, but then it was you know, it was big.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was to get to get into that squad,
Speaker 2: to be clearly assessed and offered a position, there was
Speaker 2: a really significant thing for anyone. But for you know
Speaker 2: the first woman name, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: The way the squads were set up in those days,
Speaker 1: it was virtually you were invited there. It was they
Speaker 1: look around and okay we can we can have you.
Speaker 1: So it says something they trusted you to do the work.
Speaker 1: And you're quite right, they were the tough guys going
Speaker 1: after the tough crooks and tell us because I know
Speaker 1: there would be stories of when you've had to I'd say, chestise,
Speaker 1: it's probably that's a soft way if people stepped out.
Speaker 1: I'm talking your colleagues now. The way women were treated
Speaker 1: in those days in the place.
Speaker 2: Ah well, look might disappoint you and others who have
Speaker 2: asked me that, because look, I just found there's something
Speaker 2: about me and how I perceive what is being said,
Speaker 2: like understand what's being said that it's a negative, or
Speaker 2: it's bigoted, or it's racist, or it's sexist. And my
Speaker 2: willingness to point that out to the person saying it
Speaker 2: in a way that is was just fearless. I didn't
Speaker 2: I think it comes from my naivety. I didn't realize
Speaker 2: telling people off and they might have been bosses. I
Speaker 2: did it in an intelligent way, I didn't, but I
Speaker 2: didn't realize that much not work for my career. I
Speaker 2: just thought it was an important principle. So once that
Speaker 2: was my reputation, I got less and less hassled. The
Speaker 2: first time a message went out about me, what was
Speaker 2: back at Eastwood Police station again in uniform, where a
Speaker 2: sergeant I was on station duty, and it was just
Speaker 2: a sergeant. I mean, he started to put his hands
Speaker 2: down the back of my colots. If you don't know
Speaker 2: what colots, so I don't remember that long shorts, a
Speaker 2: long skirt joined in the middle like shorts. And I
Speaker 2: turned around and elbowed him because I remember the academy
Speaker 2: one I won. The elbow is the hardest bone you've got.
Speaker 2: So I elbowed him and he flinched, just momentarily, but
Speaker 2: that was seen, and that became. That flinching became that
Speaker 2: I had decked him, and.
Speaker 1: So you just that's why everyone was so scared of you.
Speaker 2: Everyone thought I've decked this, this sergeant who was not
Speaker 2: liked by the way. That was his type of reputation.
Speaker 2: And I of course didn't say, oh no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I know, I only elbowed him and he only flinched.
Speaker 2: I left it that I decked him. So when that's
Speaker 2: the start of things. And then when I was transferred
Speaker 2: and then went to the squads, they all talk. They
Speaker 2: being the men, they all talk, uh, And I tend
Speaker 2: to think that that's the only way I can explain
Speaker 2: why I why I had such a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1: Generally boys terms that from that culture would be there,
Speaker 1: it would be passed around. Don't fuck with Pam that.
Speaker 2: I would be You know, no one says that to
Speaker 2: you at the time, So you left wondering. But really
Speaker 2: you can only be yourself, and that was me playing
Speaker 2: out And so I do think in hindsight, I've seen
Speaker 2: that as it worked for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I look, I know the way you got
Speaker 1: through your career in that, and it was a change
Speaker 1: in the guard time when females were coming into the
Speaker 1: police in numbers and then making their way through major crime.
Speaker 1: I know you could navigate your way through there. You
Speaker 1: feel sorry for others that can't. And you see, yes,
Speaker 1: you see people that, yeah, you don't want to speak up.
Speaker 1: If you speak up, you're going to be ostracized. I
Speaker 1: want my career and that saddens me that people would
Speaker 1: have potentially good people in good positions lost out because
Speaker 1: they just couldn't couldn't deal with it the way you
Speaker 1: dealt with it.
Speaker 2: Yes, suffered, suffered, emotionally suffered, mental stress, no doubt. Consequence
Speaker 2: can be a limited career, shorter career. It must be oppressive,
Speaker 2: but it's not their fault. It's the oppressive fault. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a shame. And not everyone had a family upbringing
Speaker 2: like me to Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I was going to say this, and there's a thousand
Speaker 1: other things I can say, but we'll talk on it
Speaker 1: now while we're talking about women in policing and what
Speaker 1: you had to had to go through. And it's not
Speaker 1: all negative for every knucklehead that you meet, as in
Speaker 1: a bloke, you meet some very respectful people and good
Speaker 1: human beings in the time that you're in the police.
Speaker 1: Do you think where the culture has changed and changed
Speaker 1: for the better and have we got it right now?
Speaker 2: I just I might come up with an answer at
Speaker 2: some stage as we go along, but just initially with that,
Speaker 2: I don't because I ended up working in all my
Speaker 2: career in areas where there are very few women, and
Speaker 2: women weren't necessarily in the areas I want sometimes it
Speaker 2: wasn't because they weren't allowed though, I guaranteed that's part
Speaker 2: of it. But they got married, they had children, that
Speaker 2: was their priority, so they didn't have the longevity to
Speaker 2: then work up into the more specialist areas. Once you're
Speaker 2: in the specialist areas, then those mostly men. So I
Speaker 2: sitting here, I don't think I have a proper view
Speaker 2: of what women in policing generally experience, feel and experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah I was. I did put my hat in the ring,
Speaker 2: and I was clearly the most qualified person to go
Speaker 2: to Starwin. Tell us that because it was to go
Speaker 2: to Darwin. So it was all about briefs of evidence
Speaker 2: and investigation management and crime scene preservation.
Speaker 1: I mean that was hello, Hello, I wrote the manual.
Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't just doing it, it was yes, training
Speaker 2: in it, writing it what I I guess. So the
Speaker 2: positive in that it was at least the superintendent who
Speaker 2: told me I wasn't going to be allowed to apply
Speaker 2: for the job. At least he told me it was
Speaker 2: because I was a woman. To my face, I mean
Speaker 2: he made a special meeting of it. We had a
Speaker 2: cup of TEA tells me to my face, yes, you
Speaker 2: know you are the most qualified. But they meaning the
Speaker 2: Northern Territory, they won't want a woman. Oh they don't
Speaker 2: want a woman, or they won't cope with a woman.
Speaker 2: It all means the same. But I respect him for
Speaker 2: telling me to my face because that couldn't have been easy.
Speaker 2: But nonetheless I missed out. Yeah, and that as did
Speaker 2: the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1: Well, I know I remember that very well, and how
Speaker 1: well you took it not? How did you react?
Speaker 2: I was. I was very It offended all my principles.
Speaker 2: I was very disappointed.
Speaker 1: I think you said to me, just because I haven't
Speaker 1: got a penis to your job, the things.
Speaker 2: You remember, jubil and that worries is anything.
Speaker 1: I get stuck in there?
Speaker 2: You must have suitcases at home of your memories. So
Speaker 2: that's exactly what I said. I went around as I do.
Speaker 2: I'm not. I am an open person, so I objected
Speaker 2: to what I was told. I appreciated being told to
Speaker 2: my face that's rare. But I went around pronouncing that
Speaker 2: you know, if I had a penis, and where can
Speaker 2: I get one? And does anyone have a spare one?
Speaker 2: And you know money, I can buy one and then
Speaker 2: I can go to help the Northern Territory, but no
Speaker 2: one apparently out of spare.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well I do remember it now, wonder
Speaker 1: I remember it? It was Northern territory. They can't have
Speaker 1: a woman coming up here and telling us what to do.
Speaker 1: But I suppose they move ahead. One of the funny stories,
Speaker 1: and I've got a lot of funny stories about you,
Speaker 1: but one of the funny stories that I like, and
Speaker 1: we're talking on women in policing. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: name the squad. I'm not going to identify the person
Speaker 1: because what we're going to say is pretty pretty funny,
Speaker 1: but pretty embarrassing as well. There was a senior police officer.
Speaker 1: There was no names, no names. We're at a particular squad.
Speaker 1: There was a function on and which alcohol was served,
Speaker 1: and a senior police officer called you into his office
Speaker 1: and asked you to talk to this young female detective
Speaker 1: about her behavior at this function because her drinking and
Speaker 1: her behavior. My recollection of it, your words were him
Speaker 1: to him was I'm not going to talk to her,
Speaker 1: but I'll talk to you about your behavior because you
Speaker 1: were totally inappropriate. Do you want to expand on that
Speaker 1: without identified.
Speaker 2: That's all the words it took thank you for reminding
Speaker 2: me that person deserved.
Speaker 1: It so badly that to be put in his place
Speaker 1: on that I just thought it was so shameful, shameful.
Speaker 1: He was sexist everything. He was put in the blame
Speaker 1: on this young policewoman about his behavior.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it wasn't. It had nothing to do with her.
Speaker 2: He wasn't looking out for her interests. It was about
Speaker 2: how the rumor mill had kicked in about how inappropriate
Speaker 2: he had been. He was. He was wanting to assert
Speaker 2: if I, if I had been got involved like he'd asked,
Speaker 2: it would have justified himself his position. For him, it
Speaker 2: was nothing to do with her, so it was a
Speaker 2: self protection thing for him.
Speaker 1: It was just it was shameful, and you're quite right.
Speaker 1: He would have then passed around. I got speak about
Speaker 1: his behavior.
Speaker 2: And credit getting me a woman, but me as well.
Speaker 2: To speak to her is his credibility. So he wanted
Speaker 2: to misuse two women at the same time for his own.
Speaker 1: I love it. That's that's why it's such a shame
Speaker 1: and were going to talk.
Speaker 2: At least it didn't stop him getting multiple promotions. Well
Speaker 2: it's kind of enhanced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a bad quality of the person. It's
Speaker 1: just yeah, anyway, we won't get better. We might, but
Speaker 1: not at this stage. We're a little bit later on. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to drift into fun facts before we finished
Speaker 1: part one. I'm a bit worried about this because I
Speaker 1: don't even know if you'll remember it. But I remember
Speaker 1: the first time you didn't name me. You weren't looking
Speaker 1: at me when we're growing up in the area and
Speaker 1: I knew you. You were one of the kids playing
Speaker 1: in beside Martin's place. But I remember the first time
Speaker 1: I spoke to you. It was at Northwest Crime Squad.
Speaker 1: I'd just been on the job that I was running
Speaker 1: and the suspect was shot and killed was talking to him,
Speaker 1: So it was fairly traumatic. And we'd been taken from
Speaker 1: that like and we tried to revive him and everything else.
Speaker 1: We'd been taken straight from that location to Northwest's Crime Squad,
Speaker 1: and Northwest to say it was a fairly mucho environment
Speaker 1: was yeah, well he got what he deserved, and yeah,
Speaker 1: walking around tough guys. You came up to me and said,
Speaker 1: are you okay, And just for that moment, I could
Speaker 1: drop my guard down a little bit, and I really appreciated.
Speaker 1: It meant a lot because I was walking around and
Speaker 1: I was deeply affected by it because there was a
Speaker 1: history up into me going after this blake and you
Speaker 1: said that, and I thought that was a little bit
Speaker 1: of kindness.
Speaker 2: Do you remember that, I should say, yes, shouldn't I.
Speaker 1: You don't remember the first time you spoke to me? Young? No? Well,
Speaker 1: well that's fallen flat, can this bit?
Speaker 2: I'm just glad to hear I did my job nicely.
Speaker 1: Clearly you made it was four. Clearly you made an
Speaker 1: impression on me, But I must have made no impression
Speaker 1: on you. Anyway. I thought it was a significant moment
Speaker 1: in us. It is.
Speaker 2: The fact I don't remember it doesn't make it not
Speaker 2: a significant moment.
Speaker 1: Well, it sort of diminishes what I thought it was.
Speaker 1: But anyone will move on from there. Let's take a break.
Speaker 1: I'll have time to reflect on the fact that you
Speaker 1: didn't even remember when I spoke to you. But jokes
Speaker 1: aside in that environment, and like we've all been through
Speaker 1: stressful things in police and I think we're told when
Speaker 1: you're involved in the shootings and whatever, whatever you do,
Speaker 1: don't go out drinking, go home, do this, do that
Speaker 1: as police. We all go out drink and get on
Speaker 1: the drink and all that, and it does a little
Speaker 1: bit of humanity in those macho worlds. Helps, a little
Speaker 1: bit of emotional honesty, I think helps. And I think
Speaker 1: we've moved past what we were from the crime squad days.
Speaker 1: I think we've moved past that. There's a little bit
Speaker 1: more understanding of what we're all going through and you
Speaker 1: can't hide it behind alcohol.
Speaker 2: That be fair to say, oh, you mean the system.
Speaker 2: There's a system.
Speaker 1: There, a system in place, But I think the culture
Speaker 1: has changed to we've got more of a.
Speaker 2: You' oh I do, I do, but you can market.
Speaker 2: It started with them. What's it called when you're not
Speaker 2: allowed to drink and drive? Drink and driving?
Speaker 1: When did that rule come in?
Speaker 2: So I was fighting against the squad culture for sure.
Speaker 2: Remember the squad Remember the squads on their own bars.
Speaker 2: I heard that. I never I never went to one
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Well, we've talt, we've talked, we've talked about.
Speaker 2: That because and everyone did you were allowed to drink
Speaker 2: and drive? I mean so yes, so so so your
Speaker 2: question was a bit broad, could you.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying we've moved on a little bit from
Speaker 1: that from well, not finding comfort in alcohol, we understand
Speaker 1: a little bit more.
Speaker 2: It's not it's pretty handy.
Speaker 1: You've got to get off that one.
Speaker 2: But you can just afford better quality alcohol. Now, I think, all.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to wrap up part one and then
Speaker 1: I'm going to check my notes and make sure I
Speaker 1: keep you on song for part two.
Speaker 2: You have your rest, grand.
Speaker 1: When we when we come back for part two, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about an investigation that you worked on
Speaker 1: with a good friend of I Catch Killers Russell Oxford
Speaker 1: and the one down in Wollongong, the murders down there.
Speaker 1: It's still to this day one of the most grewsome
Speaker 1: crime scenes I've seen images of, and you worked on
Speaker 1: that investigation. I know it was a hard investigation to
Speaker 1: work on. So we're going to talk about that, and
Speaker 1: we'll probably talk about whatever else you decide to talk about,
Speaker 1: even though this is my podcast called eye Catch Killers.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll take a break.
Speaker 2: Thanks Pam, Thank you,