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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. We've had

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Speaker 1: some interesting guests on my Catch Killers who have taken

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Speaker 1: us to all sorts of places, but never where Today's

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Speaker 1: guest is going to take us. To say that I'm

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Speaker 1: a bit nervous is an understatement. Today's guest, retired Detective

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Speaker 1: Chief Inspector Pamela Young, is a fascinating person. Now I

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Speaker 1: can say that with confidence because not only did I

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Speaker 1: work with her, in homicide for twenty years. She was

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Speaker 1: also my partner, and we lived together for a long time.

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Speaker 1: If you want to know what it's like living in

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Speaker 1: the home with two highly strung out, hard working homicide detectives,

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Speaker 1: you're going to find out. Pam's someone who I had

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Speaker 1: total respect for as a detective. I learned so much

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Speaker 1: from her, and despite how hard I worked, I could

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Speaker 1: never match her dedication. She gave so much of herself

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Speaker 1: to investigating murders. Today we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: career and leading some of the country's biggest investigations, including

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Speaker 1: the family law court bombings, heading up the detective's training unit,

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Speaker 1: and life as a woman in a very male dominated

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Speaker 1: world of major crime. That's what I hope to be

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Speaker 1: talking about anyway. But I've never been able to influence

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Speaker 1: or control Pam, so I'm sure she'll take the conversation

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Speaker 1: where she chooses, wherever that might be. I reckon we're

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Speaker 1: going to have a bit of fun, but I am

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Speaker 1: also worried she's going to reveal more about me than

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Speaker 1: I'm with. Let's get this started. Pay me young, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you?

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Speaker 1: Are you nervous?

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Speaker 2: A little bit?

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Speaker 1: I'm very nervous. I'm very nervous.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: This has been a long time coming. I've tried to

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Speaker 1: get you on the podcast for about I Reckon three

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Speaker 1: years at this stage and the Planets of a Line,

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Speaker 1: and I finally got you in the studio.

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Speaker 2: You wore me down.

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Speaker 1: Just keep chipping away, chipping away. Now. I want to

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Speaker 1: clarify upfront with the introduction. People know that we live

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Speaker 1: together for a very long time, and I'll probably refer

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Speaker 1: to you as young and I'm sure you're going to

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Speaker 1: call me Jubilan when I say something stupid or even

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Speaker 1: as a term affection. But that's just how we communicate.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't when we're together.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it was my I'm the one who

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Speaker 2: initiated it because I didn't think Gary suited you. I

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Speaker 2: still don't. Gary is quite a homely name. Where's your

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Speaker 2: You're like a combat unit, so like Mayo and Maverick.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so you.

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Speaker 2: Should be called Jubilan. And when I start calling you Gary,

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Speaker 2: are you've completely changed?

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Speaker 1: So I always thought when you called me Garyo, you

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Speaker 1: were disappointed I've done something, done something wrong. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be an interesting chat. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it. I want to ask you first up your

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Speaker 1: policing career. How long were you in the police.

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Speaker 2: For thirty three years?

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Speaker 1: Okay, what's the proudest thing about your policing career? What

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Speaker 1: are you most you look back at your career and

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Speaker 1: what are you proud about.

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Speaker 2: Ah, that I've faced the worst of humanity, but i

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Speaker 2: still believe in humanity. I think that's a huge achievement.

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Speaker 2: All the battles behind the scenes, the ones that aren't

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Speaker 2: known about, not even too victim's families for instance, with

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Speaker 2: fighting for resources and all the competition around that with

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Speaker 2: your other peers and harmonious teams. You get to such

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Speaker 2: a wide variety of different skill level and motivation, but

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Speaker 2: you have to extract from them the very best. So

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Speaker 2: I've managed to do those things quite a number of times.

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Speaker 2: So that makes me very proud. And those relationships have

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Speaker 2: lasted despite me putting pressure on particularly my staff. So

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Speaker 2: I'm proud of that. And probably the twenty one life

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Speaker 2: sentences and just nudging a thousand years of imprisonment that's

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Speaker 2: been handed out because of the efforts of me and

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Speaker 2: my teams.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. I'm glad. You look back at it

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Speaker 1: look back at the career proud of what you achieved.

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Speaker 1: And it was that you talk there about the battles

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Speaker 1: behind the scene battles. Chasing killers is hard, going the

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Speaker 1: courts hard, but the internal politic and the dynamics of

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Speaker 1: leading or being involved in major crime investigations, that was

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Speaker 1: another battle in itself, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, it's because we're always terribly under resourced, so

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Speaker 2: you have to take charge of your job and make

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Speaker 2: it the number one over your peers. Jobs are who

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Speaker 2: you also respect and want to do well. But you're

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Speaker 2: finding for your victims and that's really all that matters

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Speaker 2: at that time.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what you should. And every time

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Speaker 1: I got in the conflict, and as you know, I

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Speaker 1: got into a fair bit so did you in different ways,

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Speaker 1: but we got in the conflict, I always thought, well,

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Speaker 1: that's my job. I'm looking after my investigation. My investigation

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Speaker 1: is the most important investigation. And I'm saying that from

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Speaker 1: a selfish point of view, but that's the commitment that

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Speaker 1: you give to the victims. In conversations. We've had many

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Speaker 1: conversations that we've had over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 1: I know something that you take great. The fact that

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Speaker 1: old team members still reach out to you even since

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Speaker 1: you've retired, and keep you informed on what's going on,

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Speaker 1: or invite you out for a drink, or keep you

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Speaker 1: updated long coal matters that must meet a lot to.

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Speaker 2: It means so much more than they know. I believe

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Speaker 2: they think they get something out of it, but they

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Speaker 2: don't realize I get so much more out of that

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Speaker 2: continued contact and that enduring respect and dare I say

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Speaker 2: love that we have for each other, because it's because

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Speaker 2: you're dealing in matters of blood, so real and otherwise

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Speaker 2: like brotherhood and sisterhood.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, let's move on to your childhood. Now.

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Speaker 1: I know a little bit about your childhood because I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the same area. We both grew up

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Speaker 1: in Epping. You went to Cheltenham Girls High School. I

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Speaker 1: went to Eping Boys High School. There's a lot of,

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Speaker 1: let's say, collaboration between two schools. I didn't know you

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Speaker 1: when we were growing up, but I think you beside

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Speaker 1: my mate Martin Lee or his family. What was it

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Speaker 1: like growing up in the Epine area?

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Speaker 2: Very stable, very tree lined. Particularly my family home we

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Speaker 2: had a large block of land and Mum particularly mum,

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Speaker 2: but with Dad made a beautiful, big garden. So I

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Speaker 2: just remember growing up in a meadow and though I

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Speaker 2: did find it not exciting enough and not what I

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Speaker 2: wanted for myself then or now.

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Speaker 1: No, we're both broken out of the suburbs, haven't we

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Speaker 1: in a city is the way to go. But there

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Speaker 1: was a couple of proud moments in your childhood, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: because we know each other so well, there's not well,

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Speaker 1: there is no secrets. But two of your proudest moments

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Speaker 1: were winning the best on the dance floor at school dance.

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Speaker 1: And I think you were dancing two years in a row,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. And your song year one was

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Speaker 1: dancing Queen.

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Speaker 2: I believe that was my specialty. And then Pretender's Brass.

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Speaker 1: In Pockets was the second year in a row.

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Speaker 2: Why do we remember these things.

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Speaker 1: Because you would tell so many people, But I was

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Speaker 1: a dancing queen of two school dances.

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Speaker 2: I think it all came down. I wasn't a good

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Speaker 2: dance so I just had very big hair and I

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Speaker 2: flicked it around a lot, and I just think it's

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Speaker 2: the only thing that could be seen from the stage

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Speaker 2: where the judge was. That's That's what I think happened.

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Speaker 1: That that was the move. Now, another interesting fact about

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Speaker 1: you weren't going to join the police force. You actually

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Speaker 1: auditioned to NIDER at one stage. You wanted to do

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Speaker 1: something in the in that acting film I did.

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Speaker 2: I did and was roundly rejected. I didn't have.

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Speaker 1: Any big hair didn't count.

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Speaker 2: No big hair didn't count. I didn't have any background,

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Speaker 2: family or friends, or no network of anyone who had

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Speaker 2: done that or was in that industry. And I just thought,

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Speaker 2: I just thought, I want to do it. I'll be enthusiastic,

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Speaker 2: they'll have me. So. But it was not on stage

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Speaker 2: so much I might not have said no, but it

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Speaker 2: was a stage managing, and it was about bringing all

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Speaker 2: the different elements together in a timed, reliable way, which

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Speaker 2: really came in handy. It clearly was a strength then.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known it at the time, but certainly

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Speaker 2: comes in handy when you're arranging operations eighty plus personnel.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that was I do see a link there.

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Speaker 2: And also goodness with the theatrics in court, a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a background helps.

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Speaker 1: There is a little across and when you're actually a

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Speaker 1: working detective in homicide you're also an amateur actor of

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Speaker 1: some little plays that were being put on, which is

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Speaker 1: a bit unusual for someone at one stage investigating homicides.

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Speaker 1: Then I've got to get I'm on stage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's when I still had a

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Speaker 2: lightness of being. So I was in the job and

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Speaker 2: in homicide, but I still had a lightness that that

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Speaker 2: got lost, got buried, got removed from me through work.

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Speaker 2: So I like to I'm glad you're sort of helping

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Speaker 2: me reminisce of that time. Yeah, because it was a

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Speaker 2: happy time. I had some balance then, Yeah, and you

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Speaker 2: reminded me I might get back into it.

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Speaker 1: Well this question audition. Just look into the camera when

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Speaker 1: you're talking. But yeah, I think that's a good thing

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Speaker 1: to have an interest outside the cops, because we do.

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Speaker 1: We you and I and will talk about talk about

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Speaker 1: your commitment to your job in detail, but we do.

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Speaker 1: Homicide is something that you can just get sucked down

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Speaker 1: the whole, can't you. It's just you can always be

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Speaker 1: doing something and you can forgo everything else in your life,

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Speaker 1: and you know, little pleasures like you're saying, doing amateur acting,

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Speaker 1: you can just well it's not that important.

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Speaker 2: Get back to this case, yes, and I believe you

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Speaker 2: need to do that to be at your best and

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Speaker 2: to gain the depth and minutia of experience that you need.

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Speaker 2: I'm not convinced that you can be a part time

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Speaker 2: homicide squad detective. I support and understand why some people

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Speaker 2: need to be that, I really do, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think it delivers the results.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you finished.

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Speaker 2: And then the flip side to that is the sacrifice

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Speaker 2: that you make by do well.

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Speaker 1: I think if you put your hand up, and I've

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Speaker 1: said this many a time, and you know I firmly

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Speaker 1: believe it. I know you understand what I'm saying, that

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be in homicide. So if you

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Speaker 1: can't give one hundred percent, don't be in homicide, and

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Speaker 1: don't strap around calling yourself a homicide detective. If you're

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Speaker 1: not prepared to put in the work you go, are

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Speaker 1: you going to support me?

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I just think, just wondering how

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Speaker 2: many times I've heard you.

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Speaker 1: Say that ad nauseum nase, because it used to shit

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Speaker 1: people that I want to be a homicide detective, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to work on weekends and I can't

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Speaker 1: work in the afternoon. Yes, and all that, and you

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Speaker 1: understand work life balance, as we both understand, is important

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Speaker 1: because your life can go track, but there's a commitment

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Speaker 1: when you're investigating homesite.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I was the first and only inspector to recruit

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Speaker 2: into the homicide squad a mother. My goodness, it was

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Speaker 2: seen is such a radical thing because there's assumptions about

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Speaker 2: time commitment and not being available and having to perhaps

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Speaker 2: rush away. There's ill health in the family, but you know,

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Speaker 2: we meant to be a bit normal as well. So

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Speaker 2: I thought it was important to try. And so when

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Speaker 2: I had an enthusiastic mother, i e. Detective senior, comfortable mother,

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Speaker 2: and she was really keen wanting to try it. She

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Speaker 2: also had a long distance to travel to get to

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Speaker 2: the office. I felt she was going to give one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent of whatever that was she could give. It

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Speaker 2: really worked well, she did, and though at the end

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Speaker 2: of the time was two so years later she you know,

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Speaker 2: her children were older and a little bit more demanding,

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Speaker 2: so she had to leave. But it was it showed it.

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Speaker 1: Possible, well if if you set the benchmark or of

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Speaker 1: bringing mothers in. I had the same thing on myeams

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Speaker 1: and I thought they were great. And if they're committed

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Speaker 1: to the job and they're committed to their family, sometimes

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Speaker 1: one has to give and they might, as you said,

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Speaker 1: they're the person after two or three years. But definitely

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Speaker 1: definitely give them a go. It's not not a barrier

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 2: It shouldn't be. It certainly was. It was seen as radical,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very conscious of the fact we talk about

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Speaker 2: it in these terms like, oh, yes, we brought in

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Speaker 2: our mother, isn't that good? And so you know, as

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Speaker 2: though there an accept exception to the rule in no

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Speaker 2: other workplace.

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Speaker 1: Well, I suppose the real reality of homicide is that

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Speaker 1: you get that phone call and you could be away

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Speaker 1: for the next couple of weeks. Literally out the door

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Speaker 1: in half an hour and you're away for a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks. So it's a hard juggle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the fact that it's not just about them,

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Speaker 2: it's about the team needing them. Yes, they're assigned partner

264
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Speaker 2: needing them. And of course now we couldn't expand that

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Speaker 2: into men who take on the main parental caring role.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, it was Yeah, I just remember it was

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Speaker 2: quite It was well worth doing, but seen as quite radical.

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Speaker 1: Well, you always were radical? Why did you decide to

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Speaker 1: join the place? So?

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Speaker 2: Really, I have no family background with it at all.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't focused on any particular career. I was a

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Speaker 2: little bit a late developer through school and not overly motivated,

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Speaker 2: but I was good at a few things. I was

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Speaker 2: always been a very physical person, much stronger and faster

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Speaker 2: than most of the girls at my girls school as

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Speaker 2: a girl's school, But nonetheless that gave me confidence physically.

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Speaker 2: I was raised in a very decent family, with a strong, tall,

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Speaker 2: a good kind father, and two kind brothers, and so

279
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Speaker 2: joining a male dominated job didn't scare me. I didn't

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Speaker 2: give it a thought, so because I'd had that good background,

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Speaker 2: and then my mother is always very much ahead of

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Speaker 2: her time, a very strong woman, So I had that

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Speaker 2: combined confidence, I guess. So that all came when I

284
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Speaker 2: realized these things that came at a time in the

285
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Speaker 2: mid early eight nineteen eighties where they were trying to

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Speaker 2: increase the six percent police women in the job to

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Speaker 2: a radical twenty five percent?

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Speaker 1: What's this world coming to?

289
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Speaker 2: And they still haven't reached that percentage much much closer,

290
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Speaker 2: of course, So at that time they were doing the

291
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Speaker 2: recruitment runs, and there were all these fans who looking pamphlets,

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Speaker 2: and my very good girlfriend who I've known since we

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Speaker 2: were ten, Jeanette.

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Speaker 1: She shout out to Jeannette. Hey, Jeannette shout out to Jeanette.

295
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she had pamphlets. She ended up not pursuing

296
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Speaker 2: it and taking a career as a graphic designer. But

297
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Speaker 2: I saw the Panthers designle. That's exciting, that's our door,

298
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Speaker 2: that's physical, that's that's interesting. I've always had this enormous curiosity.

299
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Speaker 2: So I did not join thinking I would really like

300
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Speaker 2: to help people. I'll be helping the community. Was I

301
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Speaker 2: don't think I even thought of it in those terms

302
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Speaker 2: at all. I didn't get hooked, and of course that

303
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 2: became my driver. Absolutely, that compassion that I found in

304
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Speaker 2: myself was striking. But yes, the reason I joined was

305
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Speaker 2: for excitement indoor outdoor job.

306
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, how'd you feel going down the academy. What

307
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Speaker 1: was your first impressions in the academ Uh?

308
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Speaker 2: It was fine, meaning it was good and trying to

309
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Speaker 2: think of nothing peculiar happened. Why am I saying that?

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Speaker 1: Tell us if something peculiar happened in the police academy.

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Speaker 1: So that was you joined before me. I think you

312
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Speaker 1: were one or two classes before me. So I know

313
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Speaker 1: the vibe down there. It was certainly not as polished

314
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Speaker 1: as is now. There was, Yeah, a bit of the

315
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Speaker 1: old old school mentality.

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Speaker 2: Yes, though I think they knew they were getting in.

317
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Speaker 2: I would have been the first or second class where

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Speaker 2: they aimed for this twenty five percent, So I think

319
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Speaker 2: they had gone through a transition themselves, the trainers, especially

320
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Speaker 2: physical trainers, and the lecturers about language and various things.

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't find it. I didn't find it confronting.

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Speaker 2: I found it tough. I found it physically demanding in

323
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Speaker 2: a good way. I found the ten k's ten k

324
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Speaker 2: runs a nightmare. I just still still do. But where

325
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Speaker 2: the ten k runs helped was this lovely thing happened

326
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Speaker 2: because I was really bad at them and I was

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Speaker 2: going to fail, and I found a group of you know,

328
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Speaker 2: three or four young men from my class. They would

329
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Speaker 2: just start jogging with me for the last few kilometers

330
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Speaker 2: after they'd finished their ten came help you alone. Yeah,

331
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Speaker 2: And so I that was my first taste of the

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Speaker 2: camaraderie that you get in a sort of select industry

333
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Speaker 2: in a way and the sense of culture, the positive

334
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Speaker 2: culture that comes out of that. So that was a

335
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Speaker 2: good thing.

336
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Speaker 1: Okay, then your first experience in the police station Eastwood?

337
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: Was that your first station?

338
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and ride, how'd you feel.

339
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: Walking in on your first day? Uniform, shiny new uniform

340
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Speaker 1: and the gun on your hip and everything else.

341
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: Excited and ready? But I had no idea what I

342
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,239
Speaker 2: was ready for. But I was ready. I studied, and

343
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 2: I'd passed, and I'd ironed my uniform and again just

344
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Speaker 2: faith in which ultimately was a brotherhood. So again with

345
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Speaker 2: that family experience I've had so and largely I found

346
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Speaker 2: that's exactly what it was like. So I guess one

347
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 2: startlingk thing to me was the amount of pornographic magazines

348
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Speaker 2: in the in the bathroom because no one had ever

349
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Speaker 2: thought that women would work in police stations or every

350
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Speaker 2: police station in the state only had male toilets. Yeah,

351
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Speaker 2: so of course we had to use them, and so

352
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 2: of course I needed to. But there were these stacks

353
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Speaker 2: of pornographic magazine. So here I am, within my first week,

354
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Speaker 2: shiny new and I'm thinking, well, I don't like them.

355
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Speaker 2: I picked them up, big piles, walk them out to

356
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 2: the skip bin in the backyard, pass the police cars

357
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 2: and dump them in the bin. I and then they reappear,

358
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Speaker 2: and I do the same thing, not once, and I

359
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: keep doing it until they no longer are in what

360
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 2: is now a unisex bathroom. And no one challenged me

361
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 2: on it. And to me that's odd, But to me

362
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: that's good. Things had changed. They saw it had changed.

363
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 2: So ah, I'm just curious why I was so confident

364
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 2: to do that.

365
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you that's in your nature. You

366
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: always you do the hard stuff, and you're quite intimidating.

367
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Speaker 1: And that's why i'd say people are People didn't challenge

368
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: you on them because there be a lot of young

369
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Speaker 1: police women because you're only virtually a kid at the

370
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 1: time there that would have got harassed and ridiculed and

371
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 1: ostracized and all that.

372
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 2: But you meant or just left them.

373
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you managed to navigate your way through that. What

374
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: draw you to an interesting detectives? What was that about?

375
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: So just a little bit still answering your last question,

376
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: but I'll end up with the detectives.

377
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: I knew you'd take me, just okay.

378
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: The thing, the big thing that struck me other than

379
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 2: that bit of behavior was domestic violence and the insidious

380
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: nature of drug addiction. I had not had any experience

381
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: of violence at all or drugs at all, not just personally,

382
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 2: none of my family, none of my my circle. So

383
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: to see the amount of brutality in both those areas

384
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: there was out there in an area regarded quite well

385
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: in middle course, was really shocking to me. It was

386
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: my first real eye opener about how other people live,

387
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: and the vulnerability of women, and in hindsight, how useless

388
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 2: we were to protect the women in domestic violence situations.

389
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Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we used

390
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: to go to domestic violence situations. We'd walk in there

391
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: and the house could be an absolute mess. Obviously something

392
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: terrible had gone on, But if no one was complaining,

393
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: it was almost like you walk out the door. Back

394
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: in those days, it was yes, absolutely and the poor

395
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: and the poor woman is yeah, thank god, we've progressed

396
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: past it. But the woman be sitting there terrified. Do

397
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: you want to make a complain? No, No, it's all good,

398
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: nothing happened.

399
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: That's the shame that intelligent police. Police are meant to protect.

400
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: That doesn't matter what else goes on. We're meant to

401
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: protect people couldn't see that. Asking a victim, usually a female,

402
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: in front of the offender, would you like to come

403
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: with us and make a statement about this man who's

404
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: standing so close I to intimidate, but nonetheless in the

405
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: same anywhere, in the same environment. Why didn't it surprise

406
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: us that they all said, I'll be fine, it's just

407
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: this time. And not only that, then we actually walked away.

408
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: So we had it wrong, didn't we.

409
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: He also had no capacity to take out apprehended violence

410
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 2: or on their behalf. Either they had to complain, they

411
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: had to formally complain, and we.

412
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: Would walk away. Well there's nothing we can.

413
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Do, yes, And when you're busy, you think, oh, well

414
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: we tried, yeah, they let's move on.

415
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: We stopped, stopped it happening then, But then you go

416
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: back to the same place time and time again. I

417
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: do like the fact and that is very current in

418
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: what's happening with all the murders, domestic related murders. But

419
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: we're realizing that something has to be done and we've

420
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: just got to change the way that we approach these things.

421
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: But confronting this big topic, but you know, anyone raising

422
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: suns has a big role. It's not just a police problem.

423
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: I agree with you.

424
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: We have to have to educate that right right from

425
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: the start. That's not on And hopefully we start looking

426
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: at that because you hear like politicians are going to

427
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: get tougher by our laws, this, this and that. But

428
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: it's about education too. We're going to make sure that

429
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: people don't think that's acceptable.

430
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: Yes, basic principle is we are all equal. We are

431
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: all equal. You are not better than me.

432
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: Are you talking to me directly?

433
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: You got.

434
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: Sorry, you're talking in a general sense.

435
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: And if you think you're better than me, it doesn't

436
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: mean you can hit me when you feel like. Yeah,

437
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not a very complex.

438
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: Complicated, it's pretty simple.

439
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but we've all been you know, if

440
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: it was happening to men, it would have been solved

441
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: by now. I'm totally convinced of that. On that theme

442
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: and so many others.

443
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: Sorry, I love I love your attitude, always always there

444
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: to point these things out. That's yeah, that's great. Can

445
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: because this is I Catch Killers as in I Catch

446
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: Killers my podcast. Can we move on to the detectives? Now?

447
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: Are you finish with the uniform bit? Okay? What what

448
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: got your interest in going to detectives.

449
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: So after two years then I believe in uniform. So

450
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: we all had to stay in uniform to years. Then

451
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: you get choice, and towards the end of the two

452
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: years you were sent out. If you're lucky to have

453
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: a short period at different things such as the highway patrol,

454
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: scientific prosecutors and detectives. Plus I had some luck breaking

455
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: a small but effective shoplifting ring in my local area,

456
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: so I.

457
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: Organized crime at the school tuch shop.

458
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: So I had a bit of a bit of a reputation,

459
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: but primarily because my brain grew so through the academy

460
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 2: and so school. It didn't do much through the academy.

461
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: I loved law and policy in my brain expanded, it grew,

462
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: and I wanted a mental challenge, and I wanted to

463
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: see cases through to feed that enormous curiosity I had.

464
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: Whereas uniform people as a general rule certainly then had

465
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: to pass on anything interesting to the detective. So I

466
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: wanted to be part of the more interesting briefs of evidence.

467
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: Well, I felt that it was always good that you

468
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: got to follow it through. You saw the crime and

469
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: took it to the end. It was hard passing on

470
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: from uniform, but I'm really mindful with this podcast because

471
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: so many detectives I get in that we've got to

472
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: give a shout out to the uniform police, because both

473
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: you and I know and our careers are defined by

474
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: being detectives. The hard work is at frontline policing. Quite often,

475
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: they're the ones that got to respond the agree more.

476
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: And I say it as often as I can. They

477
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: have the toughest job, just the amount of equipment and

478
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: the sequence with which they're meant to use it, and

479
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: if they dare use it in a different sequence, the

480
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: number of questions they have to answer and them and

481
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: I would put child abuse investigators up there in all this,

482
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: maybe in all law enforcement agencies, they're the groups that

483
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: do it the most.

484
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: Can we throw in crime scene too, because we've all

485
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: had that. We turn up at that murder scene and

486
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: we do what we do as homicide detectives, and then

487
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: we leave the poor crime scene person that's usually there

488
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: on their own there for the next twenty four hours,

489
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: going meticulously through a bloodstained room. They do it do

490
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: it tough as well.

491
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: Yes, But I won't be drawn to say that they're

492
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: the same as street cups and chart abuse investigators.

493
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: All right, they'll take that off.

494
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: And you know how much I love them, Yeah, PHECSIC officers.

495
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: But all right, because we have got a lot of history,

496
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: I think with this podcast, and it's going to go

497
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: for a while, I can tell that we're going to

498
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: throw in some fun facts. And there was a job

499
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: that we worked on, and that's probably the wrong way

500
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: to start at the fun fun fact the Central Coase rapist,

501
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: the serial rapists that we worked on together for a while.

502
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: I think Paul Jacob, who you know, the influence has

503
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: had a micreer. He was running it, then he went

504
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: to another job, and then you took over the investigation.

505
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: And five women and a child had been raped in

506
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: a very violent way. So it was a horrible offense.

507
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: I was working as an investigator and you and I

508
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: had a job to do, which is when you're thinking

509
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: of joining the police, you don't you don't think about this,

510
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: but I'm sure you can remember how we were sitting

511
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: in the bushes watching men masturbate, and when they ejaculated,

512
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: we had to go and creep down into the sand

513
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: and fine the seamen. Do you want to take the

514
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: story from there? Because it's rather bizarre.

515
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: So it is really bizarre. But the weather was nicer

516
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: on the beach. And then then you had to plan

517
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: your because you never had they left yet, Like you

518
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: couldn't go up there.

519
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: You still wait till they're finished. The decided to move on.

520
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: And that they had left, had they left or were

521
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: they just no? They had left around the next next

522
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: Sandy and the wondering.

523
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Why so.

524
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, very very very very bizarre. So yes, and we

525
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: we I don't think we were planning on doing it.

526
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: So we ended up finding some sticks that had a

527
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: slight paddle effect and some plastic bags.

528
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: I think, so, I don't know. I don't like to

529
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: think about it too much, but I remember thinking, this

530
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: is what our world has come in.

531
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: Oh, but we were worse, yeah, because we had no

532
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: luck with all our seamen samples, Sandy seamen samples.

533
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: But I don't I don't think you're in on the

534
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: arrest with the masturbator who we got the sample of

535
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: the semen from. So what it was that there was

536
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: DNA with the left at the crime scenes from these

537
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: serious sexual assaults. So this person that we're keeping an

538
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: eye on that just as we're watching him, he just

539
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: start started. There's a number of men on that particular

540
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: beach did start started to masturbate, so we get the

541
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: semen so we can do a DNA in comparison. And

542
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: then it came back and that wasn't our rapist, so

543
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: that was obviously a huge disappointment. But I did go

544
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: around to his place and knock on the door because

545
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: there wasn't a fence. I don't know what it's called.

546
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: Went round there and his wife answered the door, and

547
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: I took great pleasure. It's great pleasure in that, and said,

548
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: is John or whatever his name here, Yes, yes, I'll

549
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: get him. And he came out, Can I speak to you?

550
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: And I said, I think you probably want to speak

551
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: to me on your own, but if you want your

552
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: wife to listen, I'm not embarrassed about anything I've done.

553
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: You can say this in front of my wife.

554
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: It's lovely.

555
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, where do we start? And then he

556
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: went to court and that was the most well prepared

557
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: brief for a wilful and obscene exposure. We have DNA

558
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: links to the semen that we found in the sand,

559
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, they're just some of the stranger things you

560
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: do policing. But to me, that and I won't say

561
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: that particular job was. Well, it's funny. You can reflect

562
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: and you think you're never going to do that in

563
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: your life. But that was the excitement of police work,

564
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: wasn't You never knew what you were going to do

565
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: or what where you were going to end up.

566
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not too sure those two things are connected

567
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: to the excitement of policing and collecting semen samples on

568
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: the beach. I think the seamen samples on the beach

569
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: it's almost like one of those sayings you have to say.

570
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: To say plenty of times to pronounce it properly, and

571
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: it's not easy to It's not other people.

572
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: Should try and say it exactly. So what I think

573
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: the shows to me, it's a demonstration on what we're

574
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: prepared to do. And we weren't junior then we were sergeants.

575
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: And again, so you do whatever.

576
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: It takes, and if that is climbing around on a

577
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: beach one watching men masturbate, climbing on the beach, collecting

578
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: it because you believe it will solve a crime, you

579
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: do it. Some people won't.

580
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, was it interesting? Okay, so major crime detectives,

581
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: you wanted to follow jobs through and that how did

582
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: you find your way in the major crime because back

583
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: in those days, and this is pretty royal commission and

584
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: all that, it was pretty selective on how you found

585
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: your way into major crime. And I dare say for

586
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: a woman to find a way in the major crime

587
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: that was outrageous.

588
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

589
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, occasionally you had one token woman there, but you

590
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: managed to make a career. How did that eventuate?

591
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: Yes, So, after a few years in general detectives over

592
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: at Chatswood, I started to have a feeling to want

593
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: to which is where I got my designation when I

594
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: was in general detectives, and then I felt I was

595
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 2: building confidence I was good at things.

596
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: Yep.

597
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 2: I would have liked to go to the major crime

598
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: squad North. I believed I had helped contribute a bit

599
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: to the Grundy murder case and so therefore knew a

600
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 2: few people there.

601
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: That was a lot of pressure that whole time. There

602
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: was six women killed on the north Shore, and it

603
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: was just it was frequent and that he had to

604
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: be stopped or he would have kept killing people.

605
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, so I came across him during a after

606
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: an indecent assault had been reported from a palliative care

607
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 2: ward and I responded as the afternoon shift Chatswood detectives

608
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: and a few witnesses and staff at the hospital described

609
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: different people, but one of them was a pie salesman.

610
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: So I chased up the pie company and who was

611
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: working that area, and it was a man called John

612
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: Wayne Glover. So I contacted him at home and asked

613
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: for him while I was going to go there or

614
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: him come in, I had no he was in amongst

615
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: a number of suspects. I had no reason to hone

616
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: in and just on him. But he asked for the

617
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: next day. I think his daughter had been at the

618
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: done her HC that day and that was factual, so

619
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: it was for the next day. He didn't show up

620
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: the next day, and I called him his home again

621
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: and his wife answered the phone and said, literally at

622
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: that moment he was in an ambulance being taken to

623
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: hospital having attempted suicide. That information ended up going to

624
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: your squad. Yes, So then that developed into him being

625
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: the suspect. And the thing that they asked me to

626
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 2: do was I was the first police officer to speak

627
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 2: with him. They determined to send in a woman, young woman.

628
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: I wasn't even designated a detective. Then they thought if

629
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: they said me in to the hospital that he might

630
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 2: cooperate and give them a photograph, which was needed to

631
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: identify him for crimes. He was not on recording, certainly

632
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: a photo of him was not. So I went by

633
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: myself as the first time I had met a killer.

634
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: Sitting in a room with one, I very much gave

635
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: him the impression of being naive and I'm not particularly suspicious,

636
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: but look at what help if I can have a polaroid,

637
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: which was what it was then. So I took that polaroid,

638
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 2: and that polaroid then was used to identify him whilst

639
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: he was still in hospital, so they couldn't do the

640
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: identification of him in the hospital, so they're able to

641
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: get underway with that. But that photo the one of

642
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: him in all the book covers, in all the newspaper

643
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: his eyes are slightly off center. That's a photo that

644
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: I took and he's my first killer.

645
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations, And that was that was a big one.

646
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: That catch. He was. He was bad.

647
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: But something happened at the end of that job that

648
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: made me think I would not be welcome. Effectively, some

649
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: politics stepped in with bosses. I had no idea what

650
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 2: it was about, and normous snia comes, well, I don't

651
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: know about these things, and the question is did I

652
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: ever learn? So I thought I wouldn't be welcome there,

653
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: so I ended up applying to major cromes. Were called

654
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: Northwest at Paramatta, so it's really exciting being a squattie.

655
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: There are only two women in about one hundred staff

656
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 2: outside of the child protection unit, which is where most

657
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: of the women wanted to go and certainly were put.

658
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I had a chance, and I landed

659
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: in the US squed first with oil ooiter rough, gnarly

660
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: man on the inside and out, but you know.

661
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: Was he good to work with? Sometimes the opposite in appearance,

662
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: because it's so it's so important who you get paired with,

663
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: because you can either look forward to work or hate

664
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 1: going to the opinion on who.

665
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: You've learned a lot and had a big, warm heart,

666
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: which is what I find generally. So yeah, so that's

667
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: where I started, and then I must have done something

668
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: right because of course the network comes in about who's

669
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: good or who's not so good, or what you might

670
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: be attuned to. And I was the first woman to

671
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 2: get into the space Special Breakers Unit jeez.

672
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: That was that was the old hard heeads. How did

673
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: they for the.

674
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: For any good of which there were four? So and

675
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: I was, I was invited.

676
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: And what what what type of jobs were you?

677
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: So it was in the days of where they were

678
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 2: actually safe, so they're only security for banks. For businesses

679
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: was a physical safe, very thick with a code or

680
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 2: a big you know, secure locking mechanism of this funny yes,

681
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: what are they calling it? And there was there were

682
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: gangs organized gangs that would use oxyacettline equipment to and

683
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: other things and explosive devices to break them open. So

684
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: very organized and of course banks and commercial businesses there

685
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: was a lot of money lost. So it was it

686
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: was tough, tough crooks. Therefore the squad was tough. It's

687
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: always seems to be this got to E.

688
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: Creach. Yes, perhaps with the breakers they were like in

689
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: the pecking order in the prison, so they were looked at.

690
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: There there was a stick up guys and the the breakers,

691
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: as in the crooks that were in jail, they were

692
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: always hard, tight crews, so they were the interesting working on.

693
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: And also yeah, large warehouse robberies. These are things that

694
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: I don't think people in the community know much about

695
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: anymore because of security improvements. But there was a time

696
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: when you could with the robbers where you would turn

697
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: up with your shotgun and your balaklava and your mate

698
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 2: and threatened to shoot the teller and the customers.

699
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: Actually you were talking about the cops turning up and

700
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: the shotgun because we used to it used to be before.

701
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: It just be so simple. We had shotguns.

702
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: Yes, no, there were no screens, there were no alarm buttons,

703
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: and then that you know, they go for the safe,

704
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: so the whole so just I mean, that really was

705
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: the that is that's my biggest memory of those early days.

706
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 2: The drug the drug industry which mainly heroin flooding the world,

707
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: causing the robberies on the banks, and the safe breaking

708
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: in the warehouse for smokes and you know large get

709
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: like fifty thousand dollars in the eighties was a lot smokes.

710
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: That was that was a big crime.

711
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: That was a big deal about four packs today's price,

712
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: I think, but then it was you know, it was big.

713
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was to get to get into that squad,

714
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: to be clearly assessed and offered a position, there was

715
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: a really significant thing for anyone. But for you know

716
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: the first woman name, and that's a good thing.

717
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: The way the squads were set up in those days,

718
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: it was virtually you were invited there. It was they

719
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: look around and okay we can we can have you.

720
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: So it says something they trusted you to do the work.

721
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: And you're quite right, they were the tough guys going

722
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: after the tough crooks and tell us because I know

723
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: there would be stories of when you've had to I'd say, chestise,

724
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: it's probably that's a soft way if people stepped out.

725
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm talking your colleagues now. The way women were treated

726
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: in those days in the place.

727
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: Ah well, look might disappoint you and others who have

728
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: asked me that, because look, I just found there's something

729
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: about me and how I perceive what is being said,

730
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: like understand what's being said that it's a negative, or

731
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: it's bigoted, or it's racist, or it's sexist. And my

732
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: willingness to point that out to the person saying it

733
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: in a way that is was just fearless. I didn't

734
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: I think it comes from my naivety. I didn't realize

735
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 2: telling people off and they might have been bosses. I

736
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 2: did it in an intelligent way, I didn't, but I

737
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: didn't realize that much not work for my career. I

738
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: just thought it was an important principle. So once that

739
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: was my reputation, I got less and less hassled. The

740
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: first time a message went out about me, what was

741
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 2: back at Eastwood Police station again in uniform, where a

742
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: sergeant I was on station duty, and it was just

743
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: a sergeant. I mean, he started to put his hands

744
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: down the back of my colots. If you don't know

745
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: what colots, so I don't remember that long shorts, a

746
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 2: long skirt joined in the middle like shorts. And I

747
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: turned around and elbowed him because I remember the academy

748
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: one I won. The elbow is the hardest bone you've got.

749
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: So I elbowed him and he flinched, just momentarily, but

750
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: that was seen, and that became. That flinching became that

751
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: I had decked him, and.

752
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: So you just that's why everyone was so scared of you.

753
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: Everyone thought I've decked this, this sergeant who was not

754
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: liked by the way. That was his type of reputation.

755
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: And I of course didn't say, oh no, no, no,

756
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 2: I know, I only elbowed him and he only flinched.

757
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 2: I left it that I decked him. So when that's

758
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: the start of things. And then when I was transferred

759
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: and then went to the squads, they all talk. They

760
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: being the men, they all talk, uh, And I tend

761
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: to think that that's the only way I can explain

762
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: why I why I had such a wonderful experience.

763
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: Generally boys terms that from that culture would be there,

764
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: it would be passed around. Don't fuck with Pam that.

765
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: I would be You know, no one says that to

766
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: you at the time, So you left wondering. But really

767
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: you can only be yourself, and that was me playing

768
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 2: out And so I do think in hindsight, I've seen

769
00:45:58,400 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: that as it worked for me.

770
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I look, I know the way you got

771
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: through your career in that, and it was a change

772
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: in the guard time when females were coming into the

773
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: police in numbers and then making their way through major crime.

774
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: I know you could navigate your way through there. You

775
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: feel sorry for others that can't. And you see, yes,

776
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: you see people that, yeah, you don't want to speak up.

777
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: If you speak up, you're going to be ostracized. I

778
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: want my career and that saddens me that people would

779
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: have potentially good people in good positions lost out because

780
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: they just couldn't couldn't deal with it the way you

781
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: dealt with it.

782
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: Yes, suffered, suffered, emotionally suffered, mental stress, no doubt. Consequence

783
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 2: can be a limited career, shorter career. It must be oppressive,

784
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: but it's not their fault. It's the oppressive fault. So yeah,

785
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: it's a shame. And not everyone had a family upbringing

786
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 2: like me to Yeah, yeah, yeah.

787
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: I was going to say this, and there's a thousand

788
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: other things I can say, but we'll talk on it

789
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: now while we're talking about women in policing and what

790
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: you had to had to go through. And it's not

791
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: all negative for every knucklehead that you meet, as in

792
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: a bloke, you meet some very respectful people and good

793
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: human beings in the time that you're in the police.

794
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: Do you think where the culture has changed and changed

795
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: for the better and have we got it right now?

796
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: I just I might come up with an answer at

797
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: some stage as we go along, but just initially with that,

798
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: I don't because I ended up working in all my

799
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: career in areas where there are very few women, and

800
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: women weren't necessarily in the areas I want sometimes it

801
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: wasn't because they weren't allowed though, I guaranteed that's part

802
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: of it. But they got married, they had children, that

803
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: was their priority, so they didn't have the longevity to

804
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: then work up into the more specialist areas. Once you're

805
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: in the specialist areas, then those mostly men. So I

806
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: sitting here, I don't think I have a proper view

807
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: of what women in policing generally experience, feel and experience.

808
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah I was. I did put my hat in the ring,

809
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: and I was clearly the most qualified person to go

810
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: to Starwin. Tell us that because it was to go

811
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: to Darwin. So it was all about briefs of evidence

812
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: and investigation management and crime scene preservation.

813
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean that was hello, Hello, I wrote the manual.

814
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't just doing it, it was yes, training

815
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: in it, writing it what I I guess. So the

816
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: positive in that it was at least the superintendent who

817
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 2: told me I wasn't going to be allowed to apply

818
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: for the job. At least he told me it was

819
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: because I was a woman. To my face, I mean

820
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: he made a special meeting of it. We had a

821
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: cup of TEA tells me to my face, yes, you

822
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: know you are the most qualified. But they meaning the

823
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: Northern Territory, they won't want a woman. Oh they don't

824
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 2: want a woman, or they won't cope with a woman.

825
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: It all means the same. But I respect him for

826
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 2: telling me to my face because that couldn't have been easy.

827
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: But nonetheless I missed out. Yeah, and that as did

828
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: the Northern Territory.

829
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: Well, I know I remember that very well, and how

830
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: well you took it not? How did you react?

831
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 2: I was. I was very It offended all my principles.

832
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: I was very disappointed.

833
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: I think you said to me, just because I haven't

834
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: got a penis to your job, the things.

835
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: You remember, jubil and that worries is anything.

836
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: I get stuck in there?

837
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: You must have suitcases at home of your memories. So

838
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: that's exactly what I said. I went around as I do.

839
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: I'm not. I am an open person, so I objected

840
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: to what I was told. I appreciated being told to

841
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: my face that's rare. But I went around pronouncing that

842
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: you know, if I had a penis, and where can

843
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: I get one? And does anyone have a spare one?

844
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: And you know money, I can buy one and then

845
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: I can go to help the Northern Territory, but no

846
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: one apparently out of spare.

847
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well I do remember it now, wonder

848
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: I remember it? It was Northern territory. They can't have

849
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: a woman coming up here and telling us what to do.

850
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: But I suppose they move ahead. One of the funny stories,

851
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: and I've got a lot of funny stories about you,

852
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: but one of the funny stories that I like, and

853
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: we're talking on women in policing. I'm not going to

854
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: name the squad. I'm not going to identify the person

855
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: because what we're going to say is pretty pretty funny,

856
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: but pretty embarrassing as well. There was a senior police officer.

857
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 1: There was no names, no names. We're at a particular squad.

858
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: There was a function on and which alcohol was served,

859
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: and a senior police officer called you into his office

860
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: and asked you to talk to this young female detective

861
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: about her behavior at this function because her drinking and

862
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 1: her behavior. My recollection of it, your words were him

863
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: to him was I'm not going to talk to her,

864
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: but I'll talk to you about your behavior because you

865
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: were totally inappropriate. Do you want to expand on that

866
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: without identified.

867
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: That's all the words it took thank you for reminding

868
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: me that person deserved.

869
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 1: It so badly that to be put in his place

870
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: on that I just thought it was so shameful, shameful.

871
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: He was sexist everything. He was put in the blame

872
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,720
Speaker 1: on this young policewoman about his behavior.

873
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 2: Yes, and it wasn't. It had nothing to do with her.

874
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: He wasn't looking out for her interests. It was about

875
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: how the rumor mill had kicked in about how inappropriate

876
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: he had been. He was. He was wanting to assert

877
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: if I, if I had been got involved like he'd asked,

878
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: it would have justified himself his position. For him, it

879
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 2: was nothing to do with her, so it was a

880
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: self protection thing for him.

881
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: It was just it was shameful, and you're quite right.

882
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: He would have then passed around. I got speak about

883
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: his behavior.

884
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 2: And credit getting me a woman, but me as well.

885
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 2: To speak to her is his credibility. So he wanted

886
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: to misuse two women at the same time for his own.

887
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: I love it. That's that's why it's such a shame

888
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: and were going to talk.

889
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 2: At least it didn't stop him getting multiple promotions. Well

890
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: it's kind of enhanced.

891
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a bad quality of the person. It's

892
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: just yeah, anyway, we won't get better. We might, but

893
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 1: not at this stage. We're a little bit later on. Okay,

894
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: we're going to drift into fun facts before we finished

895
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: part one. I'm a bit worried about this because I

896
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: don't even know if you'll remember it. But I remember

897
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: the first time you didn't name me. You weren't looking

898
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: at me when we're growing up in the area and

899
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: I knew you. You were one of the kids playing

900
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: in beside Martin's place. But I remember the first time

901
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: I spoke to you. It was at Northwest Crime Squad.

902
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 1: I'd just been on the job that I was running

903
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: and the suspect was shot and killed was talking to him,

904
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: So it was fairly traumatic. And we'd been taken from

905
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,439
Speaker 1: that like and we tried to revive him and everything else.

906
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: We'd been taken straight from that location to Northwest's Crime Squad,

907
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: and Northwest to say it was a fairly mucho environment

908
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: was yeah, well he got what he deserved, and yeah,

909
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: walking around tough guys. You came up to me and said,

910
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: are you okay, And just for that moment, I could

911
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: drop my guard down a little bit, and I really appreciated.

912
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: It meant a lot because I was walking around and

913
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: I was deeply affected by it because there was a

914
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: history up into me going after this blake and you

915
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: said that, and I thought that was a little bit

916
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: of kindness.

917
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: Do you remember that, I should say, yes, shouldn't I.

918
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: You don't remember the first time you spoke to me? Young? No? Well,

919
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: well that's fallen flat, can this bit?

920
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 2: I'm just glad to hear I did my job nicely.

921
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: Clearly you made it was four. Clearly you made an

922
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: impression on me, But I must have made no impression

923
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: on you. Anyway. I thought it was a significant moment

924
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: in us. It is.

925
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 2: The fact I don't remember it doesn't make it not

926
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 2: a significant moment.

927
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: Well, it sort of diminishes what I thought it was.

928
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: But anyone will move on from there. Let's take a break.

929
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: I'll have time to reflect on the fact that you

930
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 1: didn't even remember when I spoke to you. But jokes

931
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: aside in that environment, and like we've all been through

932
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: stressful things in police and I think we're told when

933
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: you're involved in the shootings and whatever, whatever you do,

934
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: don't go out drinking, go home, do this, do that

935
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: as police. We all go out drink and get on

936
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: the drink and all that, and it does a little

937
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: bit of humanity in those macho worlds. Helps, a little

938
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: bit of emotional honesty, I think helps. And I think

939
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: we've moved past what we were from the crime squad days.

940
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 1: I think we've moved past that. There's a little bit

941
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: more understanding of what we're all going through and you

942
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: can't hide it behind alcohol.

943
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 2: That be fair to say, oh, you mean the system.

944
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 2: There's a system.

945
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: There, a system in place, But I think the culture

946
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: has changed to we've got more of a.

947
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: You' oh I do, I do, but you can market.

948
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: It started with them. What's it called when you're not

949
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 2: allowed to drink and drive? Drink and driving?

950
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: When did that rule come in?

951
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 2: So I was fighting against the squad culture for sure.

952
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: Remember the squad Remember the squads on their own bars.

953
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 2: I heard that. I never I never went to one

954
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 2: of them.

955
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: Well, we've talt, we've talked, we've talked about.

956
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: That because and everyone did you were allowed to drink

957
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 2: and drive? I mean so yes, so so so your

958
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 2: question was a bit broad, could you.

959
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm just saying we've moved on a little bit from

960
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: that from well, not finding comfort in alcohol, we understand

961
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: a little bit more.

962
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: It's not it's pretty handy.

963
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: You've got to get off that one.

964
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: But you can just afford better quality alcohol. Now, I think, all.

965
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to wrap up part one and then

966
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to check my notes and make sure I

967
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: keep you on song for part two.

968
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: You have your rest, grand.

969
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: When we when we come back for part two, we're

970
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: going to talk about an investigation that you worked on

971
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: with a good friend of I Catch Killers Russell Oxford

972
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: and the one down in Wollongong, the murders down there.

973
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 1: It's still to this day one of the most grewsome

974
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: crime scenes I've seen images of, and you worked on

975
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: that investigation. I know it was a hard investigation to

976
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: work on. So we're going to talk about that, and

977
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: we'll probably talk about whatever else you decide to talk about,

978
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: even though this is my podcast called eye Catch Killers.

979
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: All right, we'll take a break.

980
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: Thanks Pam, Thank you,