WEBVTT - A big-tech defector’s AI warning for the world

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. In the

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<v Speaker 1>last week, AI bosses around the world have suddenly grown

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<v Speaker 1>a conscience, urging a global slowdown amid fears the race

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<v Speaker 1>to develop artificial intelligence could outstrip humanity's ability to control it.

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<v Speaker 1>For Dex Hunter Torek, that realisation came a little sooner.

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<v Speaker 1>The big tech insider walked away last year. disillusioned after

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<v Speaker 1>spending 15 years inside the belly of the beast. He

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<v Speaker 1>wrote speeches for Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, worked with Elon

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<v Speaker 1>Musk at SpaceX, and most recently helped Google DeepMind explain

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<v Speaker 1>the rise of artificial intelligence to the world. Now he

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<v Speaker 1>says society is making the same mistakes with AI as

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<v Speaker 1>it did in the social media era, sleepwalking into what

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<v Speaker 1>comes next. Today, founder and president of the Centre for Tomorrow,

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<v Speaker 1>Dex Hunter-Torik. gives us a glimpse inside the big tech

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<v Speaker 1>firms shaping our future. It's Wednesday, September 16. Dex, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining us. You spent 15 years helping

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<v Speaker 1>some of the most powerful people in tech sell the

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<v Speaker 1>promise of technology. When did you stop believing technology?

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<v Speaker 2>I've never actually stopped believing in the promise of technology.

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<v Speaker 2>Technology can and should be something deeply hopeful. What I did, though,

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<v Speaker 2>was I stopped believing that a bunch of those leaders,

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of those companies are configured to really serve

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<v Speaker 2>the interests of most people in our societies or around

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<v Speaker 2>the world. I think, you know, connecting people, that is

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<v Speaker 2>a good thing, but you have to manage it well.

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<v Speaker 2>You get a lot of new challenges that come along

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<v Speaker 2>with building this totally new form of human community in

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<v Speaker 2>the online realm in a world of eight and a

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<v Speaker 2>half billion people at this moment in history. And it

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<v Speaker 2>puts responsibilities on platforms to ensure that they're meeting their

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<v Speaker 2>obligations to protect users, that they're really providing the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of ecosystem in which healthy discourse can unfold. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think after 2016, when we saw the arrival of Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump as president, we saw increasing political populism and volatility.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw this huge spike in disinformation, hate speech online.

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<v Speaker 2>And I went on to work after Meta for an

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<v Speaker 2>organization called the Oversight Board. which was a body that

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<v Speaker 2>was set up to actually scrutinize content decisions on Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>and Instagram. And there you really saw at scale all

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<v Speaker 2>the mistakes that meta was making all over the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's impossible not to pay attention to that stuff

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<v Speaker 2>once you've seen it.

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<v Speaker 1>Did Mark Zuckerberg and the Facebook execs you worked with

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<v Speaker 1>have any regard for the power they held and some

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<v Speaker 1>of the adverse effects that started to emerge with things

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<v Speaker 1>like addiction and the disinformation that we've seen explode?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, often these were problems that people paid attention to.

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<v Speaker 2>But then there was just a woeful lack of response

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<v Speaker 2>and a lack of investment in truly treating these things

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<v Speaker 2>as the priorities they should have been. Perfect example, right?

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<v Speaker 2>How is it that Facebook 20 plus years later doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>have any effective customer support team or function? Every day

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<v Speaker 2>there are millions of people on Facebook, businesses all over

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<v Speaker 2>the world, communities who have problems with Facebook, and they

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<v Speaker 2>find it impossible to get in touch with a real human.

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<v Speaker 2>at this company, which is one of the world's wealthiest,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's absolutely staggering. So for me, even if

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<v Speaker 2>you have leaders who say, yeah, this is a real problem,

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<v Speaker 2>we should solve it, clearly the commitments didn't live up

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<v Speaker 2>to the reality.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's move on to AI, because you joined Google DeepMind

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<v Speaker 1>in 2023, just as ChatGPT had exploded and generative AI

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly became something everyone was talking about. You said you

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<v Speaker 1>were brought back to Google to fix Google's storytelling on AI.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the story Google wanted to tell people about

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<v Speaker 1>what was coming?

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<v Speaker 2>I think all the big tech labs love to tell

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<v Speaker 2>the story. They love telling it up to the present day,

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<v Speaker 2>which is we're inventing this amazing technology which will allow

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<v Speaker 2>us to solve basically all of our problems. For decades,

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<v Speaker 2>mathematicians have been working to solve this problem. They haven't

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<v Speaker 2>been able to crack it.

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<v Speaker 3>But AI, it just did it easily.

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<v Speaker 4>OpenAI sending this out saying we're sharing a solution.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't matter what they are, you know, pick the

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<v Speaker 2>most heroic ones because, of course, you know, that's the

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<v Speaker 2>best way to tell a story often. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the focus would be on things like science and on

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<v Speaker 2>health care, on medicines. because those are things that are

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<v Speaker 2>really important for people's lives.

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<v Speaker 5>Melbourne researchers have developed a tool to detect the risk

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<v Speaker 5>of breast cancer using an AI algorithm. The breakthrough program

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<v Speaker 5>can provide.

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<v Speaker 2>One out of two of us is going to get

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<v Speaker 2>cancer in our lives. Everybody wants to, you know, live

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<v Speaker 2>in good health for as long as possible. We want

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<v Speaker 2>our children to have healthy lives. If you could use

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<v Speaker 2>AI to discover new drugs that cure cancers, that would

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<v Speaker 2>be a very good thing for the future, right? So

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<v Speaker 2>I think in their minds, that was a story that

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<v Speaker 2>was sufficient to get people excited about the trajectory of

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<v Speaker 2>this technology and all the things they were building. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>it left out all sorts of other massive questions about

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<v Speaker 2>what does a future shaped by the most powerful technology

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<v Speaker 2>in history really look like?

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<v Speaker 1>That was the story they were telling us. What were

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<v Speaker 1>they telling each other inside these companies about generative AI?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, in all the companies... The way that the

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<v Speaker 2>last few years has been presented has been as a race.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a race to achieve more and more advanced

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<v Speaker 2>AI against the other companies. So it's OpenAI, Google, Anthropic,

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<v Speaker 2>and so on. But it's also about nations.

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<v Speaker 1>We're leading China in AI.

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<v Speaker 5>We're the most sophisticated country in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>And frankly, I want to keep it that way because

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<v Speaker 4>whoever wins AI wins.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about the ecosystems of the United States. versus China

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<v Speaker 2>competing to be the leaders in global AI without thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>what is this truly in the service of? Is this

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<v Speaker 2>really going to serve the interests of most people, not

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<v Speaker 2>just the few people in these labs and in the

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<v Speaker 2>tech industry?

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<v Speaker 1>You said the way that we talk about governing AI

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<v Speaker 1>is fundamentally broken. So what are governments getting wrong?

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<v Speaker 2>Governments working with big tech have scoped most of the

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<v Speaker 2>problems of AI over the last few years as mostly technical.

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<v Speaker 2>with mostly technical solutions. So for example, this week, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a researcher at Anthropic who's been making global headlines.

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<v Speaker 4>Anthropic AI researcher, Jacob Coxon, who previously worked at OpenAI,

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<v Speaker 4>arguing that both companies are, quote, gambling with our lives.

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<v Speaker 4>But it's this post about his reason for stepping down

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<v Speaker 4>that's going viral, racking up more than 100 million views.

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<v Speaker 4>It reads in part, the people building AI earnestly believe

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<v Speaker 4>it could kill us all by the end of the

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<v Speaker 4>next decade.

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<v Speaker 2>This is nonsense. This is the kind of view that

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<v Speaker 2>comes from organizations where there's a very small number of

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<v Speaker 2>generally young men who are obsessed with science fiction trying

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<v Speaker 2>to peddle their fringe sci-fi thinking and turn that into

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<v Speaker 2>a full-scale agenda for how AI should be managed. Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>the real way we should be thinking about AI and

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<v Speaker 2>the true risks from AI is these are societal challenges

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<v Speaker 2>and societal choices that are at stake. There's no clever

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<v Speaker 2>algorithmic fix that's coming for the fact that AI will

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<v Speaker 2>end up displacing large numbers of jobs. It is not

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<v Speaker 2>a technical problem, the fact that AI is being used

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<v Speaker 2>now to turbocharge warfare.

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<v Speaker 3>Advances in technology are making it possible to develop autonomous

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<v Speaker 3>weapon systems that can pick and attack their targets without

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<v Speaker 3>human guidance. Around 200 autonomous weapon systems have been deployed

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<v Speaker 3>across Ukraine, the Middle East and Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>We are already seeing the huge effects, including in places

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<v Speaker 2>like Australia, of AI on consumption of resources and on

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<v Speaker 2>the environment, on our natural world.

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<v Speaker 6>This forecast from the Australian Energy Market Operator is saying

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<v Speaker 6>that in 10 years' time, these data centres, and there

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<v Speaker 6>are just dozens and dozens of them popping up around

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<v Speaker 6>the country, will consume 13% of the energy supplied into

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<v Speaker 6>the grid, the national electricity market, up from 3%, so

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<v Speaker 6>a massive jump.

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<v Speaker 2>So those are not technical problems. These are really choices

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<v Speaker 2>about how we choose to manage these things, about who's

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<v Speaker 2>paying the bills for these things, how we choose to

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<v Speaker 2>ensure that communities and their interests are respected. It's much

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<v Speaker 2>easier for the tech industry to say, these are all

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<v Speaker 2>technical problems. We can solve that if we just do

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<v Speaker 2>some unspecified things behind the scenes. Because surprise, surprise, that

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<v Speaker 2>puts power back in the hands of those very small

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<v Speaker 2>number of tech labs.

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<v Speaker 1>Still to come. Dex's warning for Australia. Dex, if we

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<v Speaker 1>look at the power balance here, you've worked very closely

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<v Speaker 1>with people running these companies. How much power do a

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<v Speaker 1>very small number of executives actually have over the direction

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<v Speaker 1>this technology takes? And do you think governments are in

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<v Speaker 1>a position to challenge them?

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<v Speaker 2>I think those small number of leaders have a huge

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<v Speaker 2>amount of influence over the technology. I mean, when you

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<v Speaker 2>look at some of the individual leaders, right, you can

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<v Speaker 2>see publicly the kind of capricious decision making by people

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<v Speaker 2>like Elon Musk being turned into product decisions for X

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<v Speaker 2>almost in real time. But, you know, when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to the power that governments and regulators and communities have

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<v Speaker 2>over all of those companies, I actually think we have

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<v Speaker 2>a tremendous amount of power, much greater power than big tech.

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<v Speaker 2>We've simply chosen in many cases to exaggerate big tech's power.

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<v Speaker 2>or not to exercise the power that we do have.

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<v Speaker 2>Power is ultimately an illusion. It resides where people think

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<v Speaker 2>it resides. For a long time, a lot of political

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<v Speaker 2>leaders have tricked themselves into thinking big tech is untouchable,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's not true at all. They have to work

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<v Speaker 2>with regulators and decision makers all over the world if

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<v Speaker 2>they want to access our markets, if they want to

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<v Speaker 2>comply with regulations so that they can serve users in

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<v Speaker 2>lots of communities, if they want to work with advertisers

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<v Speaker 2>and partners. Ultimately, we've just got to be tougher in

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<v Speaker 2>asking for the things that we want to see reflected.

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<v Speaker 1>You say society is at risk of making the same

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<v Speaker 1>mistakes with AI as it did in the social media era.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you mean by that, Dex?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, here's the question. We're now more than a decade

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<v Speaker 2>and a half into the social media boom. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we've had just more time to learn how is social

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<v Speaker 2>media working and how is it not working, we have

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<v Speaker 2>spent years arguing over social media before we then very

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<v Speaker 2>quickly brought in these age restrictions for young people on

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<v Speaker 2>social media. Things which, in many cases, have yet to

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<v Speaker 2>be enforced well, so they are imperfect regulations. Nobody, or

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<v Speaker 2>very few people certainly that I'm aware of, have made

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<v Speaker 2>the case yet for, should we be exploring having age

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<v Speaker 2>restrictions on generative AI for young people? if you concede

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<v Speaker 2>that AI is going to be the most powerful technology ever,

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<v Speaker 2>this could have huge effects on the way young people think,

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<v Speaker 2>the way their brains develop, the way they process information,

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<v Speaker 2>the way they learn. Should we be just letting a

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<v Speaker 2>whole generation be guinea pigs for these tools, or should

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<v Speaker 2>we proactively bring in those restrictions now and then try

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<v Speaker 2>to understand what the effects are before we simply open

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<v Speaker 2>the floodgates?

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is actively courting the same AI companies you used

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<v Speaker 1>to work for. What should our government be demanding from

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<v Speaker 1>them before that technology becomes deeply embedded here, particularly given

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about a handful of foreign companies that may

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<v Speaker 1>actually impact our national sovereignty?

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<v Speaker 2>I think government should be absolutely demanding transparency in how

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<v Speaker 2>their systems are operating, the things that will impact our lives, communities,

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<v Speaker 2>the interests of our communities in which this tech will

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<v Speaker 2>be operating. I think absolutely everything Governments should be also

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<v Speaker 2>shopping around. It is a true buyer's market. It is

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<v Speaker 2>an era in which the technology is being commoditized very,

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<v Speaker 2>very rapidly. When governments get obsessed with trying to cut

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<v Speaker 2>deals with just a very small number of hyperscalers, going

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<v Speaker 2>for these multi-billion dollar commitments in spending. These are things

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<v Speaker 2>where I think there's actually a massive global ecosystem out there.

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<v Speaker 2>There's plenty of other companies, there's plenty of great Australian

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<v Speaker 2>startups and companies who are building great bits of technology,

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<v Speaker 2>which in many cases are free from the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>baggage that comes from US big tech. So these are

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<v Speaker 2>all some of the big strategic questions. There's obviously a

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<v Speaker 2>whole lot of very practical questions around things like data sovereignty, privacy, security, IP, infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 2>But certainly, I think in general, decision makers should be

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<v Speaker 2>pretty tough in saying that we need you to abide

0:13:01.850 --> 0:13:03.570
<v Speaker 2>by certain things if you want to serve us. And

0:13:03.610 --> 0:13:05.980
<v Speaker 2>if you can't reach agreement on those, it's okay. You

0:13:06.010 --> 0:13:07.560
<v Speaker 2>can go your own way and we'll do business with

0:13:07.580 --> 0:13:10.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody else who respects our values and our interests.

0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.300
<v Speaker 1>And finally, Dex, you spent years helping these companies tell

0:13:14.340 --> 0:13:16.990
<v Speaker 1>us what the future could look like. You've said too

0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.710
<v Speaker 1>few people have a say in helping shape that future.

0:13:20.380 --> 0:13:23.070
<v Speaker 1>So how do we give workers and ordinary people a

0:13:23.170 --> 0:13:27.170
<v Speaker 1>real say in how AI changes their jobs and their lives?

0:13:27.809 --> 0:13:32.610
<v Speaker 2>I would like to see every decision maker, every leader

0:13:33.210 --> 0:13:37.119
<v Speaker 2>have a genuine open conversation now, put their cards on

0:13:37.140 --> 0:13:39.860
<v Speaker 2>the table about what they think is going to happen

0:13:39.900 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 2>with AI. AI is still largely a very elite conversation.

0:13:43.820 --> 0:13:45.780
<v Speaker 2>It's not a thing I think most people are talking about.

0:13:46.140 --> 0:13:47.970
<v Speaker 2>People will sort of hear the headlines and think, oh,

0:13:48.070 --> 0:13:51.580
<v Speaker 2>there's some stuff in the news. Every big tech leader

0:13:52.260 --> 0:13:55.590
<v Speaker 2>premises the vision of this AI future on the idea

0:13:55.630 --> 0:13:58.230
<v Speaker 2>that AI will make us all much wealthier. The world

0:13:58.250 --> 0:14:01.530
<v Speaker 2>will become more prosperous, economies will grow, there'll be more jobs.

0:14:01.910 --> 0:14:04.230
<v Speaker 2>Lots of people don't believe it. I'm very skeptical that's

0:14:04.270 --> 0:14:06.550
<v Speaker 2>how it will unfold in the current way it's being organized.

0:14:06.820 --> 0:14:09.500
<v Speaker 2>But certainly, if your vision is that this will help

0:14:09.540 --> 0:14:13.320
<v Speaker 2>grow Australia's economy, then as a country, as communities, we

0:14:13.380 --> 0:14:16.140
<v Speaker 2>should get a question asked. What do we want to

0:14:16.179 --> 0:14:18.900
<v Speaker 2>do with all that wealth? How should we be using it?

0:14:19.210 --> 0:14:21.030
<v Speaker 2>What should we be allocating it for? How should it

0:14:21.050 --> 0:14:25.390
<v Speaker 2>be distributed? And so fundamentally, there are massive choices now

0:14:25.410 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 2>about our futures, about our children's futures. And we've got

0:14:29.140 --> 0:14:30.860
<v Speaker 2>very little time in which we might get to make

0:14:30.900 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 2>some very big choices about what kind of country we

0:14:33.700 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 2>want to live in, what kind of people do we

0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.180
<v Speaker 2>want to become in the future. And so this is

0:14:38.220 --> 0:14:40.360
<v Speaker 2>genuinely a conversation. We've just got to have it. Somebody

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.080
<v Speaker 2>has to lead it. Um, and I think, um, anyone

0:14:43.100 --> 0:14:45.220
<v Speaker 2>who can help shape that and open it up, I

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.860
<v Speaker 2>think has a responsibility to do that.

0:14:47.620 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 1>How much time do we have to have that conversation?

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.820
<v Speaker 2>We have very little time for it because of course, uh, every,

0:14:54.380 --> 0:14:56.780
<v Speaker 2>you know, major AI lab will tell you, and I

0:14:56.860 --> 0:14:59.060
<v Speaker 2>do agree with them on this, that we will arrive

0:14:59.100 --> 0:15:02.800
<v Speaker 2>at a much more advanced form of AI, artificial general intelligence,

0:15:03.020 --> 0:15:07.120
<v Speaker 2>essentially human level intelligence and machines sometime in the next

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:11.600
<v Speaker 2>10 years. Most of those leaders believe it could be

0:15:11.620 --> 0:15:15.330
<v Speaker 2>closer to five years from now. OpenAI's leadership has just

0:15:15.350 --> 0:15:17.770
<v Speaker 2>been signaling in the last few days they believe they

0:15:17.790 --> 0:15:20.850
<v Speaker 2>may have already achieved it. Lots of disagreement about that.

0:15:21.170 --> 0:15:24.270
<v Speaker 2>Many people, including myself, think that's just marketing hype. And yet,

0:15:24.730 --> 0:15:28.800
<v Speaker 2>when that arrives, if we have not fundamentally reassessed some

0:15:28.820 --> 0:15:32.220
<v Speaker 2>of our thinking about our economies, about our societies, about

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.660
<v Speaker 2>our institutions, our governance, then we will be out of

0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.490
<v Speaker 2>time and the technology will end up deciding for us.

0:15:38.850 --> 0:15:41.510
<v Speaker 2>Which is exactly what happened with social media when we

0:15:41.610 --> 0:15:44.790
<v Speaker 2>sleepwalked through a whole generation of technology, but we hadn't

0:15:44.850 --> 0:15:47.710
<v Speaker 2>taken it seriously before we entered that new era. And

0:15:47.770 --> 0:15:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I just don't want us to make that same mistake again.

0:15:52.210 --> 0:15:54.370
<v Speaker 1>Well, Dex, we're out of time for this conversation, but

0:15:54.430 --> 0:15:55.450
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for yours.

0:15:55.870 --> 0:15:56.470
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

0:15:58.810 --> 0:16:02.650
<v Speaker 1>Dex Hunter-Torrick has been in Australia for the Philanthropy Australia Conference.

0:16:14.820 --> 0:16:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Pauline Hanson has offered a half

0:16:17.740 --> 0:16:22.120
<v Speaker 1>apology for her comments describing Indigenous Australians as primitive. saying

0:16:22.180 --> 0:16:24.460
<v Speaker 1>she's sorry if she's offended people.

0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.750
<v Speaker 5>We need to be united as a nation and stop

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.490
<v Speaker 5>the division that's happening by politicians.

0:16:29.510 --> 0:16:31.890
<v Speaker 1>But the argument is that you're worsening it by saying

0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:34.510
<v Speaker 1>things like that they were the most primitive race on

0:16:34.570 --> 0:16:35.450
<v Speaker 1>earth at the time.

0:16:35.910 --> 0:16:39.170
<v Speaker 6>That that upsets a lot of Indigenous Australians.

0:16:40.030 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 5>I don't... Well, then I regret saying that because I

0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.480
<v Speaker 5>don't want to upset people. That's not my intentions. That

0:16:48.500 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 5>wasn't my intentions to hurt people.

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Hanson also offered a half apology to the Prime Minister,

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>if he's taken offence, to her comments about his mum

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:02.270
<v Speaker 1>living in a housing commission. Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate

0:17:02.470 --> 0:17:04.450
<v Speaker 1>has sworn at a journalist and stormed out of a

0:17:04.510 --> 0:17:07.430
<v Speaker 1>press conference and made questions over a dinner he claims

0:17:07.470 --> 0:17:09.630
<v Speaker 1>to have had with Donald Trump earlier this year.

0:17:10.030 --> 0:17:11.109
<v Speaker 5>Why are you so aggressive?

0:17:11.130 --> 0:17:11.730
<v Speaker 1>Are you from the ABC?

0:17:11.790 --> 0:17:11.889
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:17:11.990 --> 0:17:12.310
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, f * * * off.

0:17:12.330 --> 0:17:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Excuse me?

0:17:12.970 --> 0:17:16.780
<v Speaker 2>F * * * off. I'm serious. I'm serious.

0:17:18.410 --> 0:17:20.990
<v Speaker 1>A statement from the Trump organisation claims the mayor's account

0:17:21.010 --> 0:17:24.980
<v Speaker 1>of what occurred is a complete fabrication. I'm Daniel James.

0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to 7am. We'll be back tomorrow.