1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,660 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,660 --> 00:00:09,119 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. You can tell a lot about the state of 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,300 Sean Aylmer: the economy by the advertising market. It's an insight into 4 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:17,010 Sean Aylmer: business confidence, retail spending, and consumer behavior. My guest today 5 00:00:17,010 --> 00:00:19,800 Sean Aylmer: sees all of this in detail as the founder of 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,750 Sean Aylmer: Nunn Media, Australia's largest independent media agency. Nunn Media has 7 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:28,860 Sean Aylmer: surveyed its clients on advertising confidence and sentiment for 2023. 8 00:00:28,860 --> 00:00:30,810 Sean Aylmer: Matt Nunn, welcome to Fear and Greed. 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,720 Matt Nunn: Oh, thank you very much. Happy to be here. 10 00:00:34,290 --> 00:00:36,690 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so we know the cost of living is rising. 11 00:00:36,690 --> 00:00:41,280 Sean Aylmer: Everything from interest rates to power bills are increasing. What's 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,940 Sean Aylmer: that mean for Australian business in terms of how they're advertising? 13 00:00:45,330 --> 00:00:49,590 Matt Nunn: Well, we commissioned a survey not too long ago, sort 14 00:00:49,590 --> 00:00:53,430 Matt Nunn: of our client base, both medium and large businesses. And 15 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:57,900 Matt Nunn: what we found that despite costs from inflation to living 16 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:03,240 Matt Nunn: costs increasing, 51% of the businesses and advertisers that we 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,230 Matt Nunn: deal with remain very confident their advertising strategy will still 18 00:01:07,230 --> 00:01:11,910 Matt Nunn: drive their growth and business outcomes in '23. Which was 19 00:01:11,910 --> 00:01:15,900 Matt Nunn: probably against what we thought initially, but also on the 20 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:18,450 Matt Nunn: flip side of that, the channel plan or the media 21 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,900 Matt Nunn: mix, people are very, very confident that they will stay 22 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:24,990 Matt Nunn: with the same media mix to deliver those outcomes. 23 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:28,560 Sean Aylmer: So before we get into these specific types of media, 24 00:01:28,770 --> 00:01:31,800 Sean Aylmer: are there certain areas that are more confident or sectors 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,280 Sean Aylmer: that are more confident, the consumer durables, the retailers, some 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,910 Sean Aylmer: of those guys, more or less confident than fast- moving 27 00:01:38,910 --> 00:01:41,370 Sean Aylmer: consumer goods or any of that sort of example? 28 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:46,020 Matt Nunn: We probably didn't go into specifics by that, but what I can 29 00:01:46,020 --> 00:01:49,890 Matt Nunn: tell you is that retail is probably down a little 30 00:01:49,890 --> 00:01:54,000 Matt Nunn: bit just with the consumer confidence, after probably, for some 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,090 Matt Nunn: categories of retail, some very high peaks in the last 32 00:01:57,090 --> 00:02:01,950 Matt Nunn: one to two years. We are probably seeing motor cars, the 33 00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:05,340 Matt Nunn: car industry doing quite well. Anybody that's ordered a car 34 00:02:05,340 --> 00:02:07,800 Matt Nunn: in the last probably 12 months or you bought a 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,330 Matt Nunn: used car, will probably be able to tell you there's 36 00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:10,710 Matt Nunn: been a huge demand in that area. 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,570 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. How sensitive is advertising to changes in business 38 00:02:15,570 --> 00:02:18,090 Sean Aylmer: sentiment? What you are talking about now is, it doesn't 39 00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:21,240 Sean Aylmer: surprise me too much because certainly while consumer confidence has 40 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,250 Sean Aylmer: fallen, business sentiment is quite strong still. When things get 41 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:30,090 Sean Aylmer: tough though, do people keep spending on advertising because they 42 00:02:30,090 --> 00:02:31,800 Sean Aylmer: want things to pick up, or is it one of 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,540 Sean Aylmer: those items they tend to pull back on? 44 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,520 Matt Nunn: Well, I could speak with this instance, but also with 45 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,700 Matt Nunn: COVID. What we saw, it really depends in the category 46 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:44,520 Matt Nunn: of business you are. I take that example back to 47 00:02:44,550 --> 00:02:48,990 Matt Nunn: COVID. If you were selling computers, anything home office related 48 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,930 Matt Nunn: or anything home related, they seem to have quite a 49 00:02:51,930 --> 00:02:55,590 Matt Nunn: good time of COVID. So I think it really depends 50 00:02:55,590 --> 00:02:57,990 Matt Nunn: on the category. I think what we probably see when 51 00:02:57,990 --> 00:03:01,020 Matt Nunn: things get really bad, there's some businesses that take it 52 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:03,840 Matt Nunn: on and will try to spend their way out. Harvey 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,360 Matt Nunn: Norman's probably one of those businesses over the years, when 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,790 Matt Nunn: things get tough, they'll probably overspend and when they come 55 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:11,250 Matt Nunn: out the other side, they probably have a higher brand 56 00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:13,799 Matt Nunn: awareness and therefore their businesses really thrive. 57 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:17,040 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What about that brand awareness? How important is it 58 00:03:17,310 --> 00:03:21,030 Sean Aylmer: just to spend, not for a specific outcome, not specifically 59 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:23,850 Sean Aylmer: to get someone to walk in and purchase a product, 60 00:03:24,389 --> 00:03:27,240 Sean Aylmer: but just to be top of mind for consumers? 61 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:30,990 Matt Nunn: Well, I think everybody's dream is to be on the 62 00:03:30,990 --> 00:03:35,310 Matt Nunn: consideration list. When a consumer is thinking of your category 63 00:03:35,460 --> 00:03:38,400 Matt Nunn: to purchase, if you can be at least in that 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,140 Matt Nunn: consideration set, then you are an absolute chance to be 65 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:46,680 Matt Nunn: purchased. I think the thing that's changed over the time 66 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,640 Matt Nunn: is that that purchase and the pathway to the purchase 67 00:03:50,670 --> 00:03:54,630 Matt Nunn: has changed considerably with the introduction of digital- based media. 68 00:03:55,110 --> 00:03:57,180 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Matt. We'll be back in a minute. 69 00:04:03,450 --> 00:04:06,210 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Matt Nunn, founder and director 70 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:09,570 Sean Aylmer: of Nunn Media. Okay, so let's get onto where people 71 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:17,490 Sean Aylmer: are spending money. I noticed the results from Google and 72 00:04:17,490 --> 00:04:21,150 Sean Aylmer: also from, maybe it was Microsoft or Amazon or one 73 00:04:21,150 --> 00:04:25,890 Sean Aylmer: of those, a bit mixed. Some sense that maybe spending 74 00:04:25,890 --> 00:04:28,260 Sean Aylmer: on digital isn't the be all and end all that 75 00:04:28,260 --> 00:04:30,180 Sean Aylmer: it seems to have been in the last decade or 76 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:32,370 Sean Aylmer: so. Where are people spending their money? 77 00:04:33,029 --> 00:04:36,839 Matt Nunn: Well, this is the thing. In our industry, we actually 78 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,250 Matt Nunn: track through SMI data where people and how much they're 79 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:46,680 Matt Nunn: spending. And if I look at January's figures versus every 80 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,480 Matt Nunn: January in previous history in the Australian market, advertising expenditure 81 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,440 Matt Nunn: is up about 13% from 2018, which was the next 82 00:04:55,529 --> 00:04:58,980 Matt Nunn: biggest level. So people are spending money and they're spending 83 00:04:58,980 --> 00:05:01,469 Matt Nunn: a lot of money on advertising. Let's just not forget 84 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:01,741 Matt Nunn: about that. 85 00:05:01,741 --> 00:05:03,570 Sean Aylmer: Where are they spending it, Matt? 86 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:07,620 Matt Nunn: Well, traditionally if I look at the splits, I think 87 00:05:07,620 --> 00:05:13,290 Matt Nunn: TV's around about 36%. Digital's about 40%. Outdoor's about 11, and 88 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:16,140 Matt Nunn: radio's about seven and press probably makes up a couple 89 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:19,380 Matt Nunn: of percent and then some miscellaneous stuff. So that's kind 90 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:22,109 Matt Nunn: of where the slice of the pie is. 91 00:05:22,380 --> 00:05:26,669 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Why do people advertise on free- to- air? Why 92 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:30,239 Sean Aylmer: do they advertise on radio? Why do they advertise in 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,719 Sean Aylmer: press at all? I'm just interested in what their focus 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,190 Sean Aylmer: is. What are they trying to achieve? 95 00:05:35,910 --> 00:05:40,529 Matt Nunn: Well, I think I could answer this with a 10- page document, 96 00:05:40,529 --> 00:05:42,240 Matt Nunn: but just to bring it down a little bit, I 97 00:05:42,270 --> 00:05:47,610 Matt Nunn: think TV is the world heavyweight champion of building reach 98 00:05:47,940 --> 00:05:51,600 Matt Nunn: and awareness in a very short period of time. So 99 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,460 Matt Nunn: advertisers sourcing that will potentially choose TV and free- to- 100 00:05:56,460 --> 00:06:00,480 Matt Nunn: air TV. Radio to me is a call- to- action- 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,919 Matt Nunn: based media, but also given the unit cost, you can 102 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,370 Matt Nunn: probably get a lot better frequency and potentially top of 103 00:06:08,370 --> 00:06:15,870 Matt Nunn: mind from advertising there. I think your digital, particularly your performance- 104 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:20,190 Matt Nunn: based digital is really ROI- tracked. So I put a 105 00:06:20,190 --> 00:06:23,610 Matt Nunn: dollar here, I get $ 2 back or relating it to 106 00:06:23,610 --> 00:06:24,599 Matt Nunn: some type of metric. 107 00:06:25,230 --> 00:06:30,780 Sean Aylmer: Are the other non- digital investments more difficult to track 108 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:34,290 Sean Aylmer: ROI? That's a statement, but how much more difficult because 109 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:37,289 Sean Aylmer: you really can get a great tracking result, at least 110 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:37,830 Sean Aylmer: from digital. 111 00:06:38,070 --> 00:06:41,909 Matt Nunn: Yeah, it really is really hard. To say that an 112 00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:46,110 Matt Nunn: advertiser that's advertising on TV, radio press, Google, Facebook, et 113 00:06:46,110 --> 00:06:49,800 Matt Nunn: cetera, et cetera, trying to unravel that. There are a 114 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,250 Matt Nunn: lot of studies in market that show when people advertise 115 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,849 Matt Nunn: on TV and digital media, that digital works and converts 116 00:06:56,850 --> 00:07:00,270 Matt Nunn: at a lot higher rate versus a digital- only advertiser. 117 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:03,810 Sean Aylmer: So they kind of go hand in hand in a way. 118 00:07:03,870 --> 00:07:06,630 Matt Nunn: They do. They do. And we do a lot of 119 00:07:06,630 --> 00:07:10,500 Matt Nunn: econometric studies and tracking as well with a lot of 120 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:13,590 Matt Nunn: our clients just to work out which media is going to 121 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,230 Matt Nunn: perform best and what media does perform best. 122 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,250 Sean Aylmer: What about streaming? I watch very little free- to-air. I 123 00:07:20,310 --> 00:07:24,900 Sean Aylmer: stream pretty much everything and I even stream the free- to- 124 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:27,600 Sean Aylmer: air channels now rather than actually finding the channel itself. 125 00:07:27,930 --> 00:07:31,620 Sean Aylmer: How does that work? Does streaming work? Are people using 126 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:32,880 Sean Aylmer: it more intensely? 127 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:37,230 Matt Nunn: Well, very interesting topic. I think if you ask mom 128 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:40,230 Matt Nunn: and dad or anybody down the street, everybody's watching Netflix 129 00:07:40,230 --> 00:07:43,080 Matt Nunn: and Stan and Amazon and what have you. We've seen 130 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,290 Matt Nunn: in the market is, and with our surveys, that a 131 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:50,490 Matt Nunn: hundred percent of businesses said that streaming was probably relevant 132 00:07:50,490 --> 00:07:52,680 Matt Nunn: to them. And then a hundred percent said that they'd 133 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,250 Matt Nunn: be willing to look at trialing. The ad models that 134 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:58,500 Matt Nunn: are in market at the moment, Netflix has, I think, 135 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:03,210 Matt Nunn: five minutes per hour and Binge has four minutes. So 136 00:08:03,570 --> 00:08:07,590 Matt Nunn: the results of that advertising has probably yet to be 137 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:12,930 Matt Nunn: quantified, but it's definitely of interest to a lot of businesses. 138 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,560 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, it's interesting. If you watch SBS streaming service, I 139 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,900 Sean Aylmer: always get quite upset about the fact that they have 140 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,120 Sean Aylmer: an ad in the middle of it. Whereas one of 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,530 Sean Aylmer: those commercial streaming services where I'm paying a subscription, I 142 00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:27,840 Sean Aylmer: like the no ads. I suppose that's something that the 143 00:08:27,870 --> 00:08:30,480 Sean Aylmer: industry has to overcome too, the interruption factor. 144 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Matt Nunn: Well, that's right. One attracts a particular type of audience, 145 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,630 Matt Nunn: and those that are prepared to pay and not receive 146 00:08:36,630 --> 00:08:38,790 Matt Nunn: ads probably attracts a different type. 147 00:08:39,390 --> 00:08:42,690 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Got to ask about podcasts. Be nice, Matt, be nice. 148 00:08:43,110 --> 00:08:45,179 Matt Nunn: Well, I actually have my own podcast, so I'm all 149 00:08:45,179 --> 00:08:45,870 Matt Nunn: about podcasts. 150 00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:46,980 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. 151 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,300 Matt Nunn: Just to get that plug in there. But podcasts is 152 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:55,170 Matt Nunn: probably more niche and very specific to a topic or 153 00:08:55,170 --> 00:08:59,099 Matt Nunn: an environment, but can be very popular and very relevant 154 00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:00,060 Matt Nunn: to a lot of businesses. 155 00:09:00,570 --> 00:09:03,390 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What about the metaverse? I know that it's something 156 00:09:03,390 --> 00:09:07,500 Sean Aylmer: that you have looked into. Do people understand the metaverse 157 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,119 Sean Aylmer: enough to advertise in it? 158 00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:13,830 Matt Nunn: I would say no, they don't, but it's intriguing. So 159 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:19,470 Matt Nunn: that deep engagement, digital showrooms, to the thought of test- 160 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:23,640 Matt Nunn: driving a car virtually, to what happened at Wimbledon with, 161 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,809 Matt Nunn: I think, it was Minecraft sort of built around that 162 00:09:27,809 --> 00:09:30,960 Matt Nunn: concept around Wimbledon. It's very interesting. 163 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:34,410 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. What about gaming? Because I know something from 164 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:38,400 Sean Aylmer: your survey, it's just that businesses don't advertise a lot 165 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:39,569 Sean Aylmer: in gaming. 166 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:45,450 Matt Nunn: Yeah, so what we saw with our survey was that, 167 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,300 Matt Nunn: perhaps a few years ago, it really was a topic 168 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:52,140 Matt Nunn: of discussion and there was a lot of planning around 169 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:56,219 Matt Nunn: looking at e- sports and gaming. But what we saw 170 00:09:56,490 --> 00:10:00,870 Matt Nunn: in our survey was that that's probably reduced, and given 171 00:10:00,870 --> 00:10:04,230 Matt Nunn: the tightening of the market, people are probably steering away 172 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:06,270 Matt Nunn: from that a little bit. And I think a hundred percent 173 00:10:06,270 --> 00:10:10,020 Matt Nunn: of our respondents were to either not spend or stay 174 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:10,500 Matt Nunn: away from. 175 00:10:11,429 --> 00:10:14,760 Sean Aylmer: One final one, and this is a specific question about 176 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:18,090 Sean Aylmer: Channel Nine. It did a $ 305 million deal for the 177 00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:22,320 Sean Aylmer: Olympics covering Paris next year, LA, the Winter Games, and 178 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,359 Sean Aylmer: of course Brisbane in 2032, which I'm sure is the 179 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,590 Sean Aylmer: big draw card. Is that a media organization very much 180 00:10:28,650 --> 00:10:31,320 Sean Aylmer: putting up its hand and saying, " This is what we 181 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,309 Sean Aylmer: work to."? To spend that much money, can you recoup 182 00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:36,240 Sean Aylmer: that in advertising? 183 00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:40,679 Matt Nunn: I think that the strategy of TV stations, and our 184 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,390 Matt Nunn: survey probably reflected that, that advertisers are really hot and 185 00:10:45,390 --> 00:10:48,870 Matt Nunn: 71% agreed that free- to- air sports broadcasting remained a 186 00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:54,630 Matt Nunn: very attractive proposition. But the TV networks generally will make 187 00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:58,320 Matt Nunn: that investment, increase their audience during that time, or look 188 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,140 Matt Nunn: to, and then try to promote a lot of their 189 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:05,369 Matt Nunn: programs within upcoming, and launch programs off the back of 190 00:11:05,370 --> 00:11:09,300 Matt Nunn: that to increase their audience and buy market share. So 191 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:11,730 Matt Nunn: I think long- term it can be a very effective strategy. 192 00:11:12,179 --> 00:11:14,100 Sean Aylmer: Matt, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 193 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:15,810 Matt Nunn: No worries. Thanks for having me. 194 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:19,290 Sean Aylmer: That was Matt Nunn, founder and director of Nunn Media. 195 00:11:19,290 --> 00:11:21,480 Sean Aylmer: Actually, Matt, before you go, what's your podcast called? We 196 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,459 Sean Aylmer: love shouting out to other podcasts. What is it? 197 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:30,359 Matt Nunn: Well, my podcast is probably more themed around business, sports, 198 00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:31,230 Matt Nunn: and leadership. 199 00:11:31,770 --> 00:11:35,340 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. So if we put in your search engine Matt 200 00:11:35,340 --> 00:11:36,990 Sean Aylmer: Nunn podcast, we'll come up with it, will we? 201 00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:38,370 Matt Nunn: You'll come up. It'll come up. 202 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,460 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. This is the Fear and Greed Daily interview. Join 203 00:11:41,460 --> 00:11:43,740 Sean Aylmer: us every morning for the full episode of Fear and 204 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:47,790 Sean Aylmer: Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 205 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:48,150 Sean Aylmer: your day.