WEBVTT - The social media ban isn’t working. Now what?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven Am. The

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<v Speaker 1>first report from E Safety on how the government's under

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen social media ban is going has been released and

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<v Speaker 1>the early picture is grim. Kids are getting around the

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<v Speaker 1>ban and E safety says it's seemed no drop in

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<v Speaker 1>cyber bullying or abuse reports and bolding children on those platforms.

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<v Speaker 1>So is this just a messy start and the government

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<v Speaker 1>is right in asking for more patients or is it

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<v Speaker 1>proven that you can't simply fix platforms built to hook

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<v Speaker 1>young people by simply locking them out. Today Krokey Associated

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<v Speaker 1>editor Cam Wilson on why the band isn't working and

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<v Speaker 1>whether Australia is focusing on the wrong fix. This Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 1>April seven, Cam, good to speak with you again three

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<v Speaker 1>months on Safety has released data and how the under

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen social media ban is going. So what's the verdict?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the first look from the government about how

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<v Speaker 2>the teen social media ban is going is a red

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<v Speaker 2>flashing light for the policy. The government released a report

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time as they announced that they're investigating

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<v Speaker 2>five of the biggest social media companies for failing to

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<v Speaker 2>comply to their expectations with the ban. But in the

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<v Speaker 2>report is the real story, which is that it confirmed

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<v Speaker 2>how much circumvention there is of the ban, that is

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<v Speaker 2>kids getting around it. About seventy percent of them said

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<v Speaker 2>they still had them after the ban. That is very,

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<v Speaker 2>very widespread. Also, when you start to think about, well, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, at the end of the day, the number

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<v Speaker 2>of kids who are being on or off is actually

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of you know, it's a means to an

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<v Speaker 2>end and not the end itself. There was some data

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<v Speaker 2>from E Safety, which is the regulator who enforces it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's also responsible for, you know, protecting young peop

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<v Speaker 2>people against range of other harms. They said their number

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<v Speaker 2>of reports about cyber buoying and image based abuse on

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<v Speaker 2>those platforms that have been banned from teens in the

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<v Speaker 2>age group that were meant to be banned had not changed.

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<v Speaker 2>So we can tell from that that harms that they

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<v Speaker 2>were hoping would be addressed by the ban so far

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<v Speaker 2>early days have not actually changed.

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<v Speaker 1>A lote time ago in Ganery, the government declared the

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<v Speaker 1>ban an early success, releasing data showing that roughly four

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<v Speaker 1>point seven million accounts have been deactivated.

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<v Speaker 3>In the first week of our social media ban to

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<v Speaker 3>four point seven million accounts were deactivated, action decommissioned. Those

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<v Speaker 3>are incredible numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>They said, Was that figure accurate?

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<v Speaker 2>CAMP, So to give the context like this is a

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<v Speaker 2>worldfast policy, the fact that they've done this and managed

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<v Speaker 2>to get these tech companies to actually enforce this is

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<v Speaker 2>an accomplishment. You know. I reported weeks before the band

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<v Speaker 2>was set to coming in mid December that some of

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<v Speaker 2>the companies were still quibbling about whether there were social

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<v Speaker 2>media companies at all. So on December ten, when it

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<v Speaker 2>came in, the ten companies that they had kind of

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<v Speaker 2>listed as being in the band all complied. It was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a remarkable achievement to actually like land the

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<v Speaker 2>plane in that regard. A month later, they had this

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<v Speaker 2>data from that first week saying these companies removed four

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<v Speaker 2>point seven million accounts or deactivated them.

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<v Speaker 3>Those are incredible numbers. They said. It couldn't be done,

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<v Speaker 3>but Australia is showing just how we could do it.

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<v Speaker 2>But there were some early holes poked in those numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I heard from tech company sources that many

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<v Speaker 2>of those were not active, were duplicates. So you shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>look at that number as necessarily proof that all these

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<v Speaker 2>kids have been removed. But we're seeing that despite that

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<v Speaker 2>enormous number, there are still clearly many kids who are online.

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<v Speaker 2>Many of them have like multiple accounts across platforms. So

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<v Speaker 2>you've got, you know, you've got a snaptrad account, and

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<v Speaker 2>you've got a TikTok account, you've got a Facebook account,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're also reportedly some kids have like deleting their

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<v Speaker 2>account that they had used for a while and just

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<v Speaker 2>created a new one with no real identifying information so

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<v Speaker 2>that they can continue to be on these platforms. The

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<v Speaker 2>government has entered into this massive game of whack a

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<v Speaker 2>mole where kids are actively trying to get around it,

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<v Speaker 2>and so this number that came out was proof that

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<v Speaker 2>they had done something, that the tech companies had done something.

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<v Speaker 2>Now we're kind of coming to terms with the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that that number doesn't actually necessarily directly prove that kids

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<v Speaker 2>have substantially been taken off these platforms.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's the government said about the fact that this

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to be going too well at the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, this is a comment that has always

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<v Speaker 2>stuck in my mind before the ban had even come

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<v Speaker 2>into effect, Anthony alb Easy said on TV the ban

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<v Speaker 2>was already a success.

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<v Speaker 1>How will you be measuring the success of this?

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<v Speaker 4>It is a success already divid because what's happening is

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<v Speaker 4>that parents are having this discussion with the young ones.

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<v Speaker 2>On the day that the ban happened, they celebrated it

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<v Speaker 2>and I think pretty fairly it was a significant policy.

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<v Speaker 2>And then a month afterwards they released these numbers and

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<v Speaker 2>again reason to say this is working. But in the

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<v Speaker 2>last week the government has now for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>started to acknowledge this widespread circumvention. The Communications Minister Anaka Wells,

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<v Speaker 2>who's charged with overseeing the policy. Their response so far

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<v Speaker 2>has been well, now it's time to really step up

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<v Speaker 2>and crack down on these tech companies and do a

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<v Speaker 2>better job now of figuring out how they're actually doing

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<v Speaker 2>ongoing compliance with this.

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<v Speaker 3>All of the platforms who are covered by our social

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<v Speaker 3>media minimum age laws said that they would respect our

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<v Speaker 3>laws and if these companies want to do business in Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>they must obey Australian laws.

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<v Speaker 2>I reported last year the government was given a report

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<v Speaker 2>that they didn't release the fourth thing to the public

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<v Speaker 2>by a research agency that said we believe that if

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<v Speaker 2>kids thwart the ban, they get around it, it will

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<v Speaker 2>lead to normalization of circumvention and also we think undermine

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<v Speaker 2>the ultimate benefits because like, if you're a teen and

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<v Speaker 2>you are one of the people who are unlucky enough

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<v Speaker 2>to draw the short straw and get kicked off social

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<v Speaker 2>media and all your friends are still on there, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, like you can think of the dynamics of that.

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<v Speaker 2>You want to see everyone else and even if you

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<v Speaker 2>are on there, you're going to think that it's still

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<v Speaker 2>normal to be on there. So you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>this change from the government is the first step to

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledging this problem. They say they're investigating these major companies

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<v Speaker 2>and they're turning the screws in the companies because they

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<v Speaker 2>want the companies to turn the screws on the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>The question I think is is to what extent is

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<v Speaker 2>this ability to get around the band to thwart the

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<v Speaker 2>certain methods that are being used, To what extent can

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<v Speaker 2>it be fixed by changing in policy, And to what

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<v Speaker 2>extent is it kind of intrinsic to the difficulty of

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<v Speaker 2>trying to prove people's age online?

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up why met as terrible week in the US

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<v Speaker 1>courts could impact our laws here.

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<v Speaker 3>As the independent regulator E Safety is actively investigating potential

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<v Speaker 3>non compliance in relation to five platforms, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok,

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<v Speaker 3>and YouTube. As Jay's world leading social media laws are

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<v Speaker 3>not failing, but big tech is failing to obey the laws.

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<v Speaker 1>A safety is working on a longer term evaluation of

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<v Speaker 1>the plan. So when it comes to what success looks

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<v Speaker 1>like actually reducing harms, how is a safety in the

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<v Speaker 1>government going to measure that?

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<v Speaker 2>So there are two ways that the government is currently

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<v Speaker 2>looking at this, or specifically the e Safety Commissioner is

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<v Speaker 2>looking at this. The first way is those investigations into

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<v Speaker 2>how well the companies are enforcing it. They are working

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<v Speaker 2>with an academic advisory board who is advising them on

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<v Speaker 2>the best way to study it. And it's a longitudinal

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<v Speaker 2>study that involves surveys. They're asking for medical health data.

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<v Speaker 2>They're asking both parents and kids. They took some data

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<v Speaker 2>before the ban came in. Now I think they've got

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<v Speaker 2>like five. I think they call them waves of sections

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<v Speaker 2>where they're checking in to see, you know, how is

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<v Speaker 2>it affecting you based on what you say, how is

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<v Speaker 2>it affecting how you use the phone. They're asking people

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<v Speaker 2>who are participating to install apps on their phone. So

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<v Speaker 2>they can actually see what apps that they are using.

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<v Speaker 2>So there is this really broader evaluation that's being done.

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<v Speaker 2>That's where we got this survey data saying that parents

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<v Speaker 2>say that their kids are largely still on these platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>Now the Communications Minister that will run a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>legal evaluation of the war two years after it came

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<v Speaker 2>into effect. That's part of the law and young people

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<v Speaker 2>they're wellbeing. Use of technology is a very very complex area.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's good to see this scrutinized study that's

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<v Speaker 2>being done. It will take a while to going to

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<v Speaker 2>get some answers, and I don't think we should be

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<v Speaker 2>holding our breath either to be told yes, no, this

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<v Speaker 2>has been a.

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<v Speaker 4>Success in breaking news out of the US. Now Meta

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<v Speaker 4>and Google have been found guilty on all counts in

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<v Speaker 4>a landmark trial that could shape the social media landscape.

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<v Speaker 4>The social media cam.

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<v Speaker 1>Meta itself has been in serious trouble in the US

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<v Speaker 1>this month. It's lost two major court cases, one in

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico and the next day another in Los Angeles.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me about those cases?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Sure. So there were two substantial cases that came

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<v Speaker 2>down in various US state courts. One that was around

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that Meta Meta alone, which is the owner

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<v Speaker 2>of Facebook, Instagram threads What's Up, had not done enough

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<v Speaker 2>to protect young people from sexual exploitation. Warriors for the

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<v Speaker 2>case had set up dummy youth accounts and found that

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<v Speaker 2>they were being exposed to predators and the company wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>doing enough to protect young users.

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<v Speaker 5>The jury woruld tuesday the company violated state law by

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<v Speaker 5>failing to warn users about the dangers of IT platforms

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<v Speaker 5>and protect children from sexual predators. Meta was ordered to

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<v Speaker 5>pay three hundred and seventy five million dollars in damages.

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<v Speaker 5>The company plans to appeal the decision.

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<v Speaker 2>There's separates a little bit more attention that was Meta

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<v Speaker 2>and YouTube were both found to have been negligent in

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<v Speaker 2>creating app designs that had led one specific young person

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<v Speaker 2>to have mental health issues that contributed to her well being.

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<v Speaker 6>Outside the California courthouse, families celebrating the outcome of a

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<v Speaker 6>David Versus Goliath lawsuit one twenty year old woman against

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<v Speaker 6>two social media giants. The jury found Mata and Google

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<v Speaker 6>liable on all accounts after she alleged that the addictive

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<v Speaker 6>design of their platforms kept her hooked and harmed her

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<v Speaker 6>mental health.

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<v Speaker 2>And this was substantial because one of the big legal

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<v Speaker 2>protections that tech companies had in the US is that

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<v Speaker 2>content that is served by platforms two users is not

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<v Speaker 2>the responsibility of the platform as long as they abuided

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<v Speaker 2>by some other laws. But essentially, like if you say

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<v Speaker 2>I was shown eating disorder content on Instagram and I

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<v Speaker 2>developed an eating disorder, these companies are actually protected by

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<v Speaker 2>a rule that says, well, we're not actually responsible for

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<v Speaker 2>the harm that is caused by content on our platform.

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<v Speaker 2>This lawsuit took a different route. It said, we're not

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<v Speaker 2>talking about the actual content that is served on the platform.

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<v Speaker 2>We are talking about the platform's design itself, and it

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<v Speaker 2>identified endless scroll, the algorithms that run the recommendation engines.

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<v Speaker 2>These things, they said were leading users to harm. They

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<v Speaker 2>caused harm in this one person's case, and this jury

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<v Speaker 2>in California decided that yes, they were responsible for that.

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<v Speaker 7>She will be paid millions of dollars. And that's just

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<v Speaker 7>one woman. But this case affects millions, if not billions,

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<v Speaker 7>more people all of us who use social media, because

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<v Speaker 7>inevitably the product will change to make it safer, and

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<v Speaker 7>the verdict in this will affect hundreds of other cases.

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<v Speaker 2>And one thing this is substantial is we're seeing this

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<v Speaker 2>distinction here. The distinction is not that like social media

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<v Speaker 2>inherently is damaging. The issue is how these companies have

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<v Speaker 2>designed their apps in a way that is linked to

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<v Speaker 2>their business practices that is harming users. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that is very important to understand because there was this

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<v Speaker 2>little change made to Australia's teen social media ban last

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<v Speaker 2>week to roughly coincide with this, that they narrowed the

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<v Speaker 2>band to say we are focusing on social media companies

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<v Speaker 2>with these apps that have features that we deem to

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<v Speaker 2>be harmful and addictive, the same things that were found

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<v Speaker 2>to be harmful in this lawsuit. And why that is

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<v Speaker 2>substantial is because meta like TikTok could actually now release

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<v Speaker 2>versions of their app to my understanding of the law

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<v Speaker 2>now in Australia, that could have teams back on it

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 2>if they get rid of those features. We're now seeing

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the band narrowed to actually say social media inherently is

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 2>not the wrong thing, it's actually these features. I haven't

0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 2>heard anything from social media companies. I don't think that

0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:13.760
<v Speaker 2>we're going to get like you know, Facebook tomorrow will

0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 2>drop you know Facebook Australia that is like great to

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.360
<v Speaker 2>use that we're not worried about all this stuff. But

0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.400
<v Speaker 2>it is a change in the WAW that I think

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.760
<v Speaker 2>is substantial because I think it is a more sophisticated

0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 2>war that gets away from this really blunt ban and

0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.360
<v Speaker 2>some of its unintended consequences.

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.800
<v Speaker 1>So when we look at our social media ban and

0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.000
<v Speaker 1>given what you've just said, CAM is Australia trying to

0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.079
<v Speaker 1>solve the problem of protecting kids mainly by excluding them,

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.520
<v Speaker 1>while courts and others are increasingly saying the deeper problem

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 1>is how these products were built in the first place.

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 1>And so through the narrowing of that law, are they

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.320
<v Speaker 1>opening the door for Meta and other social media conglomerants

0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 1>to serve content to children.

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.760
<v Speaker 2>Again, let me put it this way. I don't think

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.080
<v Speaker 2>court is going to save us, Like, if it does

0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 2>end up holding it up, it will be you know,

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 2>a cost that metatakes on board. But these things do

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.040
<v Speaker 2>influence what these companies do, you know, like the way

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.160
<v Speaker 2>I think for justice, the way for a better you

0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 2>know version of these apps that in particular that Australians say, well,

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.240
<v Speaker 2>we want them to work this way, you know, the

0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.000
<v Speaker 2>way to that is thinking about regulation that makes these

0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 2>apps more like the way that we want them. Because

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.560
<v Speaker 2>companies are like Meta, like TikTok, like Snap, they also

0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.760
<v Speaker 2>see Australian markets as a market that is valuable to them.

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 2>They want to keep the users, and so that's the

0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 2>leverage that we have over them. There would have to

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 2>be a lot for someone like to Facebook to withdraw

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.520
<v Speaker 2>from the market. So we should use that leverage to say, well,

0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 2>if you want to serve users in our country, we

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 2>expect you to work like this, and we actually think

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 2>that certain features are not okay or should we change.

0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 2>That is a leverage that we have, and I hope

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 2>that this court case gives politicians a courage to know

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 2>that there is a broad desire to do something. They've

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.920
<v Speaker 2>done this social media band that I think, you know,

0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 2>we still don't know, but I think that there is

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.800
<v Speaker 2>a broad desire fuel to help people and not just

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.800
<v Speaker 2>young people, but people of all ages to have experiences

0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 2>on these applications that would make them generally happier.

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Cam, thanks so much for your time.

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Australia has locked in another month's

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 1>worth of fuel as consumers and motorists browsed for higher prices.

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Energy Minister Chris Balen says Australia initially had supply until

0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>mid April, but that's now being secured until May, with

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.480
<v Speaker 1>three point seven billion leters of fuel set to arrive

0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.040
<v Speaker 1>this month. Prime Minister Anthony Alberinezi will also travel to

0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.520
<v Speaker 1>Southeast Asia later this week to meet with counterparts about

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 1>stabilizing each country's fuel supplies. And US President Donald Trump

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.120
<v Speaker 1>has rated it up pressure on Iran, threatening in an

0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Easter Sunday social media post to target Iran's power plants

0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 1>and bridges if the strategic Strait of Whole Moves is

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.640
<v Speaker 1>not reopened. An expletive laden truth social post, President Trump

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.640
<v Speaker 1>stated the Iranian regime will be living in hell if

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.800
<v Speaker 1>the strait isn't reopened, following up by giving the deadline

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 1>of Tuesday eight pm Eastern time. Iran meanwhile has expanded

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.040
<v Speaker 1>attacks and golf energy infrastructure, launching drones and missile strugs

0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 1>on petrochemical facilities in Kuwait, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates.

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to seven AM. We'll

0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 1>be back tomorrow