WEBVTT - ‘An assault on transparent government’: Albanese’s plan to make secrecy easier

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM in

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<v Speaker 1>opposition Anthony Alberinez. He said Scott Morrison led the culture secrecy.

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<v Speaker 2>We're shining sunlight on a shadow government that preferred to

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<v Speaker 2>operate in.

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<v Speaker 1>Darkness, but now in power, he's copying Morrison's playbook. His

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<v Speaker 1>government is planning to weaken our freedom of information laws,

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<v Speaker 1>laws which are meant the whole government's accountable, giving the

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<v Speaker 1>public access to documents that show how and why decisions

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<v Speaker 1>are made. The changes will limit who makes requests, expand

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<v Speaker 1>what stays secret, and make it harder the challenge refusals.

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<v Speaker 1>The government says it's a bad efficiency. Others say it

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<v Speaker 1>was undermining a core principle of democracy. Today former Senator

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<v Speaker 1>and transparency advocate Rex Patrick on the proposed FOI reforms

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<v Speaker 1>and the culture of secrecy plaguing Australian governments. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>September fifteenth, Rex, Thanks for joining us. During your time

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<v Speaker 1>in Federal Parliament you became known as the transparency warrior,

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<v Speaker 1>and since leaving Parliament you've stayed an advocate in the space.

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<v Speaker 1>What is transparency such a key issue for you?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, transparency is a really important part of our democracy.

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<v Speaker 3>Everything the government does it does for public purpose and

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<v Speaker 3>on the public coin, and so we own the information

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<v Speaker 3>that the government has. Now, there are, of course things

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<v Speaker 3>that we don't want to be made public in a

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<v Speaker 3>general sense. One could imagine our defense secrets, police operational information.

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<v Speaker 3>But information is the currency of power in a democracy. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I was seeking access to at the moment, what are

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<v Speaker 3>the government's plans in to the high level radioactive waste

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<v Speaker 3>that will result from ORCUS. Now, I think that's a

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<v Speaker 3>really reasonable thing for people in the Australian public to

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<v Speaker 3>know about the government has fought tooth and nail for

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<v Speaker 3>me not to get access to that. And I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>after secrets of how the reactor works or anything to

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<v Speaker 3>do with the operational characteristics of the summer. And I

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<v Speaker 3>want to know where they're going to put the waste

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<v Speaker 3>and how they're going to determine where they're going to

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<v Speaker 3>put the waste. And I'm in the Federal Court at

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<v Speaker 3>the moment trying to get access to that document. And

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<v Speaker 3>it's a document I just think the public ought to

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<v Speaker 3>be able to see.

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<v Speaker 1>Right So on some matters, even though the laws are

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<v Speaker 1>to give citizens a right to access information, there are

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<v Speaker 1>still barriers. What else have you personally experienced in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of trying to get information out of government?

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<v Speaker 3>Generally there's a reluctance for people or officials to disclose

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<v Speaker 3>information and that's not the way should be, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>quite problematic. I'll give you an extreme case where I

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<v Speaker 3>sought access to a document that was written by Christian Porter,

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<v Speaker 3>the Attorney General at the time, and to Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 3>Scott Morrison. It was a two page letter of advice

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<v Speaker 3>as to whether Senator Bridget mackenzie had complied with the

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<v Speaker 3>law in relation to what is known colloquially as the

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<v Speaker 3>Sports Roots affair.

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<v Speaker 4>Bridget mackenzie has quit cabinet and resigned as Deputy National's

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<v Speaker 4>Leader in the wake of the so called Sports Roots affair.

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<v Speaker 4>A report by the Prime Minister's Department found the senator

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<v Speaker 4>breach Minister or standards by failing to disclose her membership

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<v Speaker 4>of a gun club that received funding from the controversial

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<v Speaker 4>grants program.

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<v Speaker 3>The government spent five hundred and forty six thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 3>opposing the release of the document, and in this instance,

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<v Speaker 3>what the showed was that the Attorney General had told

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<v Speaker 3>the Prime Minister that everything was in order. Now I've

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<v Speaker 3>shown that letter to lawyers barristers who just say the

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<v Speaker 3>advice was wrong and it took me a long time

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<v Speaker 3>to get access to that.

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<v Speaker 1>How long did it take to get access to that

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<v Speaker 1>rex It.

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<v Speaker 3>Took about four years to get access to it. And

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<v Speaker 3>they're the extreme links that governments go to to try

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<v Speaker 3>and stop people being able to see what government's doing

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<v Speaker 3>and the basis upon which they're acting.

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<v Speaker 1>And now the government has decided it's time for Australia's

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<v Speaker 1>freedom of information laws to be reformed. So what changes

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<v Speaker 1>are they proposing.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we know that the FOI system is broken and

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<v Speaker 3>the government has introduced a bill which seeks to make

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<v Speaker 3>the FI better for government and make it worse for

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<v Speaker 3>the public.

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<v Speaker 5>Attorney General Michelle Roland says the move is necess to

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<v Speaker 5>stop the deluge of requests slowing down government agencies.

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<v Speaker 6>The purpose of this bill is to ensure the system

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<v Speaker 6>is fit for purpose in twenty twenty five and beyond.

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<v Speaker 3>This bill seeks to expand the stope of exemptions that

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<v Speaker 3>are currently in place.

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<v Speaker 5>The legislation will also make it harder to access some documents,

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<v Speaker 5>with tougher rules around cabinet confidentiality.

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<v Speaker 3>The areas in which that's occurring relate to the Cabinet Convention,

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<v Speaker 3>which is now expanding to include pretty much any document

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<v Speaker 3>that Cabinet talks about. And the other big area is

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<v Speaker 3>a provision that will allow the government to exempt information

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<v Speaker 3>that would, if disclosed, chill the advice of public servants.

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<v Speaker 3>You could imagine any piece of advice that's controversial. They

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<v Speaker 3>will say, well, if you disclose this, we will be

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<v Speaker 3>able to give ministers good advice the future. So they've

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<v Speaker 3>introduced things like chargers Minister Farrell.

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<v Speaker 7>That relates to the fact that in twenty twenty four

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<v Speaker 7>public servants spent more than one million hours processing FOI requests.

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<v Speaker 3>If only remove the ability for someone to make an

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<v Speaker 3>anonymous FOI request.

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<v Speaker 7>Anonymous FOI requests are no longer going to be permitted,

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<v Speaker 7>genuine FOI requests are prioritized, and taxpayers money is saved

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<v Speaker 7>on frivolous and automated requests.

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<v Speaker 3>They've done things like propose that a decision maker is

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<v Speaker 3>not to be named. The Parliament in nineteen eighty two

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<v Speaker 3>gave us a right to access to information, and the

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<v Speaker 3>government now thinks it's okay for someone to strip that

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<v Speaker 3>right from us and not be named. That does very

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<v Speaker 3>little to encourage the decision maker to actually make a

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<v Speaker 3>good decision.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, why transparency is only ever shadowed from opposition.

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<v Speaker 6>In one instance, a small agency received nearly six hundred

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<v Speaker 6>FOI requests in a short period of time from an

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<v Speaker 6>automated generator. This resulted in the diversion of an entire

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<v Speaker 6>public service team from their work for more than three months. Now,

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<v Speaker 6>mister speaker, you may ask who that agency is. That

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<v Speaker 6>agency was e Safety, whose core mission is to keep

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<v Speaker 6>astray and children.

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<v Speaker 1>Safe home rex. The government says there are a number

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<v Speaker 1>of reasons these reforms are needed. It says there's a

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<v Speaker 1>deluge or requests which is slowing down government agencies. It

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<v Speaker 1>says the system is costly, and Health Minister Mark Butler

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<v Speaker 1>even said that we don't know where all the request

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<v Speaker 1>where they're actually coming from, and there may be link

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<v Speaker 1>to criminal gains and foreign actors. So what do you

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<v Speaker 1>make of the government's reason.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, I don't really have an issue with the government

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<v Speaker 3>basically checking the bona fides of an applicant. The real

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<v Speaker 3>problem for me is I do make FOIS on behalf

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<v Speaker 3>of people, and those people may be whistleblowers. Those people

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<v Speaker 3>may be businesses that simply fear retribution if they make

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<v Speaker 3>inquiries to departments. As sad as that may sound, so

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<v Speaker 3>we do need the ability in some way to allow

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<v Speaker 3>for legitimate third parties to make FOI applications. But there

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<v Speaker 3>are issues like so, for example, the government talks about

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<v Speaker 3>the cost of FOIS. I've already indicated to you that

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<v Speaker 3>for a two page document they were prepared to spend

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<v Speaker 3>more than half a million dollars to keep the document's secret.

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<v Speaker 3>Now I keep a tab on how much the government

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<v Speaker 3>has been spending on resisting me, and the tally at

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<v Speaker 3>this point in time is one point six million dollars

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<v Speaker 3>spent losing to me on FOI. So if you want

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about costs, be more transparent. They've turned the

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<v Speaker 3>whole FOI process into this nightmare of bureaucracy. And that's

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<v Speaker 3>not the cause of members of the public. That's the

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<v Speaker 3>cultural problem that exists inside government with they're just shy

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<v Speaker 3>of releasing anything that might be in any way controversial

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<v Speaker 3>or cause an adverse media article or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it's not the principle that the Act was

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<v Speaker 3>established on, which is basically to say that we should

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<v Speaker 3>be able to see generally most of the information that

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<v Speaker 3>government has.

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<v Speaker 1>So these changes now basically formalizing the culture of fruit

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<v Speaker 1>of information with new principles that enshrine that culture.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll give you one example of one of the changes

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<v Speaker 3>right now. If you do an FI, government officials often say,

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<v Speaker 3>if we were to release this information, it would cause

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<v Speaker 3>a chilling effect on our advice moving forward. We wouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>be quite as forthright in our advice if we know

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<v Speaker 3>that it can be disclosed. But the Public Service Act

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<v Speaker 3>requires that public servants always give the best possible advice.

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<v Speaker 3>They're required to be professional, have integrity, act with honesty,

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<v Speaker 3>and the Act actually specifies that they must give a

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<v Speaker 3>political evidence based frank advice. Now, what the government's done

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<v Speaker 3>is now trying to put into law something that says

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<v Speaker 3>if the advice would chill advice, then it can't access,

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<v Speaker 3>can't be granted. Now, what that means is any controversial topic,

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<v Speaker 3>no matter what it is, if it's controversial, or they

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<v Speaker 3>will pull the frank and fearless argument. Now I have

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<v Speaker 3>to ask how fearless is advice? If you fear the

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<v Speaker 3>public seeing it, you should never want a minister to

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<v Speaker 3>act on advice that the author is not prepared to

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<v Speaker 3>be scrutinized. I mean, that's an outrageous situation.

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<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned that. The other way this bill seeks

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<v Speaker 1>to expand exemptions relates to cabinet confidentiality. So what cabinet

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<v Speaker 1>discusses behind closed doors? So how are they looking to

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<v Speaker 1>expand those laws?

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<v Speaker 3>So when politicians meet in cabinet senior ministers, they make

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<v Speaker 3>decisions and then they have to leave the cabinet room

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<v Speaker 3>and implement those decisions by, for example, introducing legislation into

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<v Speaker 3>the Parliament, or maybe getting their department to do something

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<v Speaker 3>exercising ministrial power, or perhaps going to the Governor General

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<v Speaker 3>through the Executive Council. Cabinet exemption is simply to make

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<v Speaker 3>sure that we don't get to see the differing views

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<v Speaker 3>of ministers. So we don't get to see the submission

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<v Speaker 3>of the Finance minister, we don't get to see the

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<v Speaker 3>submission of the Defense minister, because they may have differing views,

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<v Speaker 3>and our cabinet's got to be seen as one on

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<v Speaker 3>all issues. What the government now trying to do is

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<v Speaker 3>change the definition completely and say that any issue that's

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<v Speaker 3>been considered by cabinet then attracts an exemption.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, isn't that kind of like everything that the

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<v Speaker 1>government does.

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<v Speaker 3>It is an absolute assault on open and transparent government

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<v Speaker 3>from a man mister Albanezi, who went into the election

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<v Speaker 3>in twenty twenty two promising greater openness and transparency. It's

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<v Speaker 3>actually a betrayal of the principles that he laid down.

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<v Speaker 3>This bill is a shameful, shameful attack on the way

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<v Speaker 3>in which our government is supposed to work and work

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<v Speaker 3>for Australians.

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<v Speaker 2>Australians have placed their trust in our new Labor government

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<v Speaker 2>and I thank them for We are determined to repay

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<v Speaker 2>that trust by demonstrating a commitment to transparency and integrity.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about that. The Alberdezer government campaigned on transparency,

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<v Speaker 1>It attacked Scott Morrison's record on secrecy.

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<v Speaker 2>Holding ourselves to a higher standard of behavior. Then it's

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<v Speaker 2>not illegal.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do you think they've essentially abandoned that position.

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<v Speaker 3>I train a lot of Senator's officers in FOI, and

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<v Speaker 3>just after the Liberal Party left and the Labor Party

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<v Speaker 3>entered government, I had some of my former Senate colleagues

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<v Speaker 3>saying to me, Rex, you wouldn't believe how secretive this

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<v Speaker 3>government is. I think it's a natural thing to not

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<v Speaker 3>want to have to be held accountable, and that's where

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<v Speaker 3>the Parliament has to step up. And in this instance,

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<v Speaker 3>the Parliament is being asked to erode some fundamental principles

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<v Speaker 3>of democracy. We know that Anthony Alberezi is very concerned

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<v Speaker 3>about being seen to honor his promises. This is an

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<v Speaker 3>absolute breach and one of the things that will happen

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<v Speaker 3>is that if these laws get passed, they will never

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<v Speaker 3>get reversed because once they're passed, what will happen is

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<v Speaker 3>that when the Liberal Party eventually get back into government,

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<v Speaker 3>they are going to change it. There's a saying that

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<v Speaker 3>I use all the time, transparency is a word only

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<v Speaker 3>shouted from opposition benchers once you get into government. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>those pesky citizens, if they can just get out of

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<v Speaker 3>our way, we want to do things that we want

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<v Speaker 3>to do. So there is a real danger here that

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<v Speaker 3>if this gets past, it will set back our democracy,

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<v Speaker 3>our democracy a long long way. We live in an

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<v Speaker 3>age where there's emails, where there's podcasts, where there's media,

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<v Speaker 3>where there's social media, where it's really easy to get

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<v Speaker 3>access to information, and the government now is basically saying, well,

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<v Speaker 3>we've got to stymy this, We've got to stop this

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<v Speaker 3>in some way, and it's the absolute antithesis of what

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<v Speaker 3>technology has provided us now the ability to participate. They're

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<v Speaker 3>trying to clamp down on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Grex Patrick, thank you so much for.

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<v Speaker 3>Your time and you're most welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, the federal government has announced a

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<v Speaker 1>twelve billion dollar boost to Australia's building and summarine capabilities

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<v Speaker 1>support the Orchest Agreement. The government says the money we'll

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<v Speaker 1>go towards the delivery of the Henderson Defense Precinct, a

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<v Speaker 1>shipbuilding facility in Western Australia which will cost twenty five

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<v Speaker 1>billion over the next decade and be used to build

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<v Speaker 1>and sustain vessels and dock submarines. And there were scenes

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<v Speaker 1>of violence of Melbourne, CBD on the weekend as anti

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<v Speaker 1>government and anti racism protesters clashed. Opposing protests took place

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<v Speaker 1>across all capital cities and some regional areas, with some

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<v Speaker 1>marching in solidarity with Camp Sovereignty, an indigenous gathering place

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<v Speaker 1>in Melbourne, CBD that was recently attacked by neo Nazis.

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<v Speaker 1>Others were marching against immigration and perceived government corruption, with

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<v Speaker 1>some protesters paying tribute to prominent far right US commentator

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie Kirk, who was assassinated in Utah last week. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel James. Thanks for listening. Seven am. Will be back

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<v Speaker 1>tomorrow