WEBVTT - Catching the Postcard Bandit, twice: Glen Potter Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.600 Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.640 to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.640 twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.280 what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.040 I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.919 the public into the world in which I operated. The 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.600 guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.280 all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.760 just like the people I talked to. Some of the 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.959 content and language might be confronting. That's because no one 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.360 who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:46.240 me now as I take you into this world. Today 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.960 I had a great chat with a former Western Australian 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.400 Police officer, Detective Senior Sergeant Glenn Potter. Glenn led the 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.600 investigation into one of Australia's most wanted criminals, Brendan Abbott, 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.920 who is also known as a Postcard Bandit. Abbott was 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.720 a notorious arm robber who escaped from prison twice. He 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.120 was on the run for years and was believed to 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:11.119 have robbed between forty to fifty banks. Glenn spoke about 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.119 how the postcard bandit was eventually caught and the game 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.399 of cat and mouse between him and Brendan when he 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.800 was trying to track him down. This investigation is currently 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.800 being portrayed on the TV series called Run. You should 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.679 check it out. It's a great show. But that's just 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.960 one of many of Glenn's stories from his amazing career 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.080 in the Western Australian Police. We also talked about his 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.679 role as a police negotiator and his involvement in Australia's 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.160 longest running hostage situation. Wait until you hear that story. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.880 It's a cracker of a police story. We talked about 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.360 tactical policing and dramatic arrests, including the investigation into the 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:49.280 disappearance of a former soldier who was caught up in 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.920 an international diamond fraud with links to Romania. Glenn also 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.520 tells me about the worst injury he got as a policeman, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.160 which was whilst riding a horse, which is quite on 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.800 it given the fact he's also an accomplished rhodeo rider. 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.280 Some of the stories Glenn's got you won't believe, but 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.480 you just can't make this shit up. I hope you enjoy. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.600 Glenn Potter, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.519 Good a, Gary, happy to be here. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.400 When you joined the police, I'm sure you didn't have 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.119 an expectation that there'd be a TV series playing out 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.320 about an investigation you were involved in. What was that like? 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.440 Was that a sort of surreal experience for you? 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.440 It was. But I built up over a number of 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.919 years with the intention of getting into the movie industry, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.040 you know, during it after I retired, and as you 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.280 and I discussed previously, I worked with animals, horses. I've 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:46.520 been a horse rider for my adult life and I 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.639 wanted to take horses to film, and so I got 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.560 into the industry through acting lessons and it just evolved 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:53.959 from there. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.720 Yeah, that's an interesting side hustle train the animals and 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.200 in the police. But you actually, and we'll talk about 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.919 it later in the podcast, you were involved in the 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:07.840 horses when we were in the police. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.640 Yeah. Look, I decided to go for a career changed 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.000 about twenty five years into the job. I was a 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.840 detective senior sergeant, and I decided that I'd give something 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.160 different a crack, and I was asked to take over 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.480 the matter section to try and fix some of the 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.320 problems there and in the end I had fifteen years 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.120 there and with the dogs God as well, traveling the 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.040 world talking about matter and policing all through the world. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.000 So he was quite surreal that alone. And of course 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.920 I got to meet people like hethe Harris who was 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.839 responsible for horses and things like Gallipoli, and a man 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.120 from Snowy River and so I a famous force trainer, 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.440 and that was through the police because New South Wells 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.600 Police were using him to train their police forces, and 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:52.800 I thought that's a good gig. We're going to have 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.080 a crack at this, and they did well. 0:03:55.360 --> 0:04:00.200 It's nice having a fallback position after the police. You 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.040 enjoy the police, but you never know where that's going 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.560 to take you or when it's time to leave. So 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.560 a good good thing to have a back up. The 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:14.200 actual TV series we're talking about run related to Brendan Abbot. 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.200 For people that don't know Brendan Abbott, he escaped from 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.679 prison twice. I think he escaped from a police station 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.200 once before that. Was on the run for years. Bank Robber, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.840 the notorious bank robber and at the peak of his activity, 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:34.040 he is probably Australia's most wanted wanted man. We're going 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.360 to talk about that investigation and your involvement in the investigation, 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.280 but just to give the listeners an understanding about who 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.840 Brendan was as a person, how would you describe him? 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:46.920 Because he had such a high profile. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.760 Brendan was a four full criminal and I underlined criminal. 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.680 From a young age, he'd gone through a series of 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.200 issues with family. He was made a ward of the state. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.960 His mother put him up for a warden of the state. 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.480 He went into a boy's home. That's where he learnt 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.880 his trade. At eighteen, he started committing your normal petty offenses, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.839 but he was also a little bit more organized than most. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.320 He initially took on stealing electrical goods from shops and 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.520 reselling them at a bit of a side hustle, and 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.119 from there he was pulled in by the detectives at 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.120 Nola marac Iv and that's when he made his first 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.440 escape through the back door of the police station. From 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.360 there he went on to bigger and better things and 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.680 eventually went on to become the drop in bandit. He 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.960 took on a bank and dropped through the ceiling of 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.720 a bank that hadn't been done w a before that 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.400 created the initial start of a myth behind the man, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:55.200 and ultimately he was arrested at Perth Airport and charged 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.800 with the robbery, got a sentence, and then that's when 0:05:58.839 --> 0:05:59.880 things really kicked off. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.279 Hear what you're saying and watching the documentary and reading 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.960 up about Brendan, And it's not glorifying crime. We know 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.040 from being police officers the impact those type of crimes 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.440 can have. But there was something about him in the 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.599 way that he carried out the crimes. And we'll delve 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.839 into that because I think it's very interesting you talking 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.600 about the investigation how he was eventually caught. But let's 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.720 learn before we go into that, Let's learn a little 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.680 bit about yourself. Where did you grow. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:35.200 Up in Perth and a little bit in the Northwest. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.960 I initially wanted to join the army and that's all 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.120 I wanted to do. And I got as far as 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:45.799 almost accepting in to apprentices school at fifteen when my father, 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.200 who had served in the Navy, said you're not going. 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.320 You're too young, so he can that and I said, well, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.560 what am I going to do? Can I join the police? 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.600 He said sure, So fifteen I applied for the police 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:02.280 I've got images. I just turned seventeen at and then 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.599 spent the next few years bouncing around doing different jobs 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.520 till I decided what I wanted to do. I spent 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.160 some time in the pipe band because I played the 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:13.120 bagpipes as a kid. 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.000 Of course, you did, you ride horses, play the bagpipes. 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.600 You do all sorts of things here in negotiator. Yeah, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:19.040 so yeah. 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.160 I did a couple of years in the pipe band, 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:23.680 and then I decided I'll give traffic at a court 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.680 go and tore around on my motorbike and love that. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.559 And then I got into an investigative section in the 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.320 traffic branch, which was run by an old protective ex 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.560 detective sergeant, and he said, I think you should be 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.640 a detective. So he arranged for me to go and 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.400 see the chief super of the COB at the time, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.720 probably the most harrowing interview I've ever done. I didn't 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.920 realize it was an interview. I went in there and 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.560 he just hammered me for about forty minutes. Made me 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:58.920 say something silly about letting a shotlifter be summoned, and 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.440 he hammered me for that. Then he threw the criminal 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.840 Code at me and said now find Arson, and I'd 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.679 been given a tip on what to do when he said, fine, Arsen, 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.720 never go to the front, go to the back. So 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.120 I went to the back about Arson, answered the questions 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.160 stood out and thought, I've really blown this interview. I'm 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.880 never going to be a detective, shook his hand, said 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:20.600 thanks for the moment, went back to the office. By 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.880 the time I got back to the office, while Jack 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.360 Dearing had run Bill, my boss and said he's a 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.040 good fellow. We're going to take him just to tell 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.080 him his comment. He's joined the CIB and far out well. 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.880 So that's how how my life's detective started. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:36.040 What the year was that? 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.520 What that was nineteen eighty five? 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.720 Ok, that's We had something similar in New South Wales. 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.679 If you wanted to become a detective you had to 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.000 pass what they call the bull ring. And I think 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.679 it was aptly call the bull ring for a reason 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.240 because you'd have three old, cranky detective sergeants sitting at 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.520 the table opposite you and like at sounds, look what 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.080 you went through. Put the pressure on you. Just see 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.640 how you're going to react, Just really stir you up, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.880 and how you come across that dictates whether you get 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.120 the invite into become a detective or plane clothes. 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.040 I think had I'd not been told about the index 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.840 on the criminal Code, it probably would have been in 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:19.199 traffic for a very long time. 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.199 Well it's handy to have informants, isn't it. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.480 Oh yeah, I learned very early in those days. 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.959 Yeah, a little bit of inside knowledge that might have 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.560 been part of the test you also got into. And 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:33.800 I want to break it all down, but just again 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.240 to give you a sense, the listener, a sense of 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.160 the diversity of work that you've done within the police. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.320 In negoshading. You were in negotiater at some stage. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.720 I was, at the same time as becoming a detective. 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.520 I was also what we had apart time emergency Squad, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.880 which became the TRG, which is the Tactical Road. So 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.079 I was an operator in that, and we were off 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:56.679 doing course in that type of thing, and I saw 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.320 negotiaters and I thought, yeah, that's pretty cool. So I 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.960 made the choice become a detective, and then eventually gave 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:07.040 the tactical side up and when that became full time, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:13.360 and then later on became a negotiator, a hostage negotiator, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.239 And yeah, I went to Queensland, did all the courses 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.280 and ended up some pretty fascinating jobs as a negotiator 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:22.160 in wa. 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.760 Yeah, you were telling me about one that you're involved 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:27.839 in that I want to touch on later on in 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:33.280 the podcast, but it was particularly particularly interesting when you 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.959 were looking at the Brendan Abbot case. How did you 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.200 get involved in that? At what stage of your career 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.760 was he first came across your raidar. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.480 I was in the seventy nine division about between ninety 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.880 two and ninety four, and I was a detective senior 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.520 constable and that seventy nine division was crime cars, so 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.920 you ninety percent of the time you're working nights and 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.280 roving around the metropolitan area. They used to have four 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.640 detective cars or neron division, one uniform, one detective permanent 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:09.080 partners roaming around the city and it was fantastic. There 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.120 was just excitement every night it was and seventy nine 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.360 division was that, you know, that was the go to 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:16.800 crew for the night if you had a major crime. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.120 We do the initial stuff. From there, I got promoted 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.640 detectives ergeant and so I had to leave and I 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:29.280 got sent to robbery squad. So from there I went 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.640 to four years at arm robbery and I took over 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.520 a team, a team of three guys and myself, and 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.480 of course all the files for that team were just 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.480 landed on my desk and I was just going through 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.120 the files and I came across one that said Operation 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.920 Elma Fudd and that's what they called it, and that 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.040 was into Brendan Abbott. And this was five years after 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.319 his escape. So I've been on the run. We've been 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.760 they've been chasing around the country trying to get, you know, 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:58.000 leads on him. But really in those days, the states 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.520 were very siloed. They would he kind of be interested 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.080 in what they were doing unless you were doing interchange 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.880 between squads, which at that stage had since ceased, so 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.720 there wasn't much sharing. So I mean, I'm reading Operation 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.480 All the Fund, which was about Brendan Abbott, and it 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.000 sparked a memory of mine. While I've been in seventy 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.800 nine Division, which is that I had we went to 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.360 a domestic, violent domestic and I was talking to a 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.920 woman there by the name of Kelly Fisher, who was 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.319 the de facto of Glenn Sammott aka Glenn Abbott, which 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.560 was the younger brother of Brendan Abbott and she was 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.200 pretty angry with Glenn at the time, and she started 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.319 telling her stuff and she said, oh, that he was 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.319 over east, and I reckon he was with his brother, 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:49.080 Brendan Abbott, between such and such states, And that sparked 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.080 a memory because when I was reading through the files 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:56.439 and as the investigation went on, a gunshop robbery came up, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.080 and the Gold Coast and it was near the Pink 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:06.240 Poodle Hotel, and those things clicked the timing, the fact 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.520 that maybe suspected that Brennan was involved with that. So 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.000 I changed tact on the investigation, which was initially focusing 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.960 on informants and the family. Here the whole family too, 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.400 focusing on Glenn because to me, that was a proven connection. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:29.880 It's not a bad way to run or focus an investigation. 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.920 If that's a connection, then I assume you're working on 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.040 the belief that as two brothers, they had a bond 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.360 and they would likely meet up at some stage. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.520 Well, that's right. And the other thing that sparked my 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.720 interest obvious is that we couldn't find him. We could 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.679 not find Glenn Sham anywhere. We didn't know where he lived. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.400 We eventually we founded Glenn Salmon, a Glenn Norman Salmon 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:01.320 working in a factory in Bayswater. So for the next 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.240 week we set surveillance up until we realized that this 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.520 was a different Glenn Norman Salmon. It wasn't our guy, 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.120 so we just continued on trying to find him. We've 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.680 got a lucky break. We got some information that that 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.000 Glenn Salmon we were looking for was appearing in court 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.360 and Mandra for a speeding driving offense. So we set 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.400 up on that date and sure enough we picked him 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.560 up and we conducted surveillance on him and we found 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.760 he was living covertly in Mandrara, which is south of Perth, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:40.320 under a false name, false rental agreement, false bank, false everything, 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.720 completely covert, and so that was our focus. We started 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.760 working on him very closely surveillance or as much as 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.480 of the svealance we could get on him, and we 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.360 worked through our tactics of what we're going to do 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.920 to try and see whether he linked up with Brendan, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.360 which became a story on its own. 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.840 The way you talk surveillance and it was a different 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.960 ballgame back then, Wasn't it a lot of physical surveillance. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.000 We didn't have the technology tracking phones as much as 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:16.680 available today, and it was easier in a cash society 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.960 to go off the radar and not track people. So 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.120 I would imagine when you found the hideout that Glenn 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.120 had or where he was off the off the records, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.280 that would have felt like a good step in the 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:31.920 right direction. 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.240 Look, we knew we were onto something and I was 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:39.520 this stage talking both Sid Thomas and South Australia and 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.200 Jerry Costello in Queensland and ultimately then Clan Pritchard who 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.040 was a detective on the Gold Coast, And can I 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.800 add at this throughout this investigation, even before the five 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.520 years before me, a lot of credit must go to 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.040 the guys who were doing the previous investigation, a lot 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.000 of credit to Sid Thomas, and a lot of credits 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.720 to Jerry Costello who were detective sergeants in their respective jurisdiction. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.320 So it wasn't wasn't a one man, one team, one 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.640 state job. And by this stage we got up a 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.520 better communication between states. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.160 Tell us about the first breakout from Freemantle Prison, just 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.560 so people have got a sense of what we're dealing 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:24.840 here with Brendan Abbott, because it's pretty ballsy, as most 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.600 prison breaks are because the consequences are if it goes 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.160 bad that they can be shot, as the corrective services 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.520 are entitled to do. How did he break out the 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.880 Freemantle I've been the Freemantle Prison and those that don't 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.360 know that it's a very old style prison, the way 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.400 you'd expect something from the previous century, sandstone blocks and 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.520 iron bars. How did he actually break out of there? 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.440 So that to take a step back, there was a 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:55.840 prison riot and Brendan was one of the people involved 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.560 in the right and ultimately had to base court with 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.160 a number of a defendants and they were going to 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.000 and from court high security every day during the trial. 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.840 And that this is important because Brendan was they'd take 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.960 off their prison greens, they would put on civilian clothes 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.800 they'd taken to the prison, come back, strip off, and 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.160 over that period he was able to accumulate some civilian 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.359 clothes obviously take one item every now and then and so, 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.320 and he stashed those away. So he was always thinking 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.960 about escape. So we move along post the prison riot trial. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.720 He's convicted, he's got extra time and a sentence. He 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.800 got himself into the prison tailor shop where they were 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:43.960 making uniforms, prisoners, gear, overalls and this type of thing. 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.480 And I think it dawned on him very early that 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.679 he needed He couldn't just tunnel out. He couldn't go 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.320 out just over the wall. We couldn't walk out. So 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.120 he had to come up with a pretty devious plan. 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.119 And the plan he came up with was to look like, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.040 get out of the tailor sho shop through the bars, 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.159 get across the roof and over the wall. He had 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.080 a pretty good idea of the setup of the prison 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.919 because during the course of the trial there were maps 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.439 shown at the prison, and obviously he took those in 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.800 so he knew roughly where he had to go to 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.400 get out over the wall, and the tailor shop gave 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:22.680 him that access. So he'd managed to secure getting hold 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:27.720 of a hacksaw blades through the workshop there, and he'd 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:33.720 also managed to get onto making overalls, and once days 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.520 they'd had the overalls stashed away and made and they 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.359 were cutting through the bars over a long period, but 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.320 one of the bars broke early, so they made the 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.840 decision to go there. And then that was him Reynolds 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.040 and a guy called I actually can't remember soon on 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.280 the other one, but so they were going to do 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.080 to get out. They saw through the bars. Three of 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.240 them got through the window across the roof. They had 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.280 to jump agap. Reynolds and Abbott got over the gap, 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.960 and the third one fell down the gap and broke 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.800 his leg. So they continued on this gap through the 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.000 roofs over the wall, they dropped a big drop and 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.080 scarp and getting rid of the overalls, they had civilian 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.560 clothes underneath. From there they got on a bus and 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.080 went and got a hamburger from hungry Jacks and then 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.800 continued on their merry way. And Abbot ran for five 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:28.640 month or five. 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:34.959 Years, breaking down a couple of things. The jump the gap, 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.200 like prisoners are set up not to escape, So I 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.560 would imagine that's a pretty big gap and consequences if 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.920 you fail that gap. But I suppose if you're trying 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.200 to bust out of the prison, you highly motivated. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.080 Yeah, And look they had a good run up to it, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.280 and they got across, and of course one of them 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.600 didn't didn't quite make it. I think it was it 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.480 was quite a gap. And of course the prison guards 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.640 are seeing people in what they initially thought were overalls, 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.560 prison overalls as prison officers, so they got a fair 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.160 distance before it was realized that they were they were 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.040 escaping prisoners, So it was pretty ingenious. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.320 Yeah, and the fact that the planning, because in the 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.200 people I've spoken to or I know that they've escaped 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.080 from prison, you tend to have two types, ones that 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.600 are planning it and ones that are opportunistic that they're 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.679 just see a moment and they decide to take the chance. 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:33.880 And I've got to say most people that get out 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.639 of prison get caught relatively soon after because there's a 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.200 lot of focus from law enforcement. Obviously, if someone's busted 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.919 out of jail, it's a humiliation to the corrective services. 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.880 It's almost waving the red flag at police and corrective 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.000 services if you've escaped from escape from prison. So a 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.639 lot of work goes into it, and most people that 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.160 escape from prison don't spend that long on the other 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.080 side of the wall before they get caught. Brendan for 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:03.920 out on the run for five years five or six 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:05.280 six years. 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.960 Five years, five years, whereas Reynolds, the fellow he escaped with, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:10.879 he didn't take long to get caught, And that was 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.840 showing the difference between two types of crip Brendan was 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:20.560 the thinker. Reynolds was the opportunist and not as I 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.760 don't think has had the smarts of Brendan had. And 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.679 Brendan got rid of Reynolds in the end when he 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:29.960 realized he was a liability. And that was one of 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.840 the things. Brennan was always thinking about staying out. Reynolds 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.120 was always thinking about what can I do next? Because 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.399 I'm enjoying this life. There was one was a strategic 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:41.080 thinker and the. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:45.320 Other knot What sawt of things? Did your assessment of it? 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.240 And you've been heavily involved in the investigation. What saw 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.199 the things? Was Brendan doing that set himself apart in 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.920 being strategic enough to keep that low profile and slip 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:56.600 under the radar. 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.520 I think staying on the move and keeping a low 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:01.720 profile when he was on the move and doing things 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:03.320 that people would normally do. I mean he went on 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.399 an I think it was a kentiquy tour or a 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.960 tour through the through Lord and Territory, met up with 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.080 a Japanese tourist. They just look like pals. They headed 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:18.440 off and climb There's ulu As Rock as it was called. 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:24.120 Ben did real touristy stuff that didn't draw attention when 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.280 they If he did a job, he planned the job 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.479