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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed

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Speaker 1: to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For

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Speaker 1: twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's

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Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talked to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today

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Speaker 1: I had a great chat with a former Western Australian

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Speaker 1: Police officer, Detective Senior Sergeant Glenn Potter. Glenn led the

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Speaker 1: investigation into one of Australia's most wanted criminals, Brendan Abbott,

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Speaker 1: who is also known as a Postcard Bandit. Abbott was

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Speaker 1: a notorious arm robber who escaped from prison twice. He

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Speaker 1: was on the run for years and was believed to

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Speaker 1: have robbed between forty to fifty banks. Glenn spoke about

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Speaker 1: how the postcard bandit was eventually caught and the game

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Speaker 1: of cat and mouse between him and Brendan when he

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Speaker 1: was trying to track him down. This investigation is currently

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Speaker 1: being portrayed on the TV series called Run. You should

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Speaker 1: check it out. It's a great show. But that's just

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Speaker 1: one of many of Glenn's stories from his amazing career

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Speaker 1: in the Western Australian Police. We also talked about his

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Speaker 1: role as a police negotiator and his involvement in Australia's

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Speaker 1: longest running hostage situation. Wait until you hear that story.

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Speaker 1: It's a cracker of a police story. We talked about

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Speaker 1: tactical policing and dramatic arrests, including the investigation into the

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Speaker 1: disappearance of a former soldier who was caught up in

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Speaker 1: an international diamond fraud with links to Romania. Glenn also

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Speaker 1: tells me about the worst injury he got as a policeman,

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Speaker 1: which was whilst riding a horse, which is quite on

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Speaker 1: it given the fact he's also an accomplished rhodeo rider.

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Speaker 1: Some of the stories Glenn's got you won't believe, but

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Speaker 1: you just can't make this shit up. I hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Glenn Potter, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Good a, Gary, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: When you joined the police, I'm sure you didn't have

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Speaker 1: an expectation that there'd be a TV series playing out

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Speaker 1: about an investigation you were involved in. What was that like?

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Speaker 1: Was that a sort of surreal experience for you?

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Speaker 2: It was. But I built up over a number of

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Speaker 2: years with the intention of getting into the movie industry,

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Speaker 2: you know, during it after I retired, and as you

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Speaker 2: and I discussed previously, I worked with animals, horses. I've

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Speaker 2: been a horse rider for my adult life and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to take horses to film, and so I got

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Speaker 2: into the industry through acting lessons and it just evolved

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting side hustle train the animals and

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Speaker 1: in the police. But you actually, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: it later in the podcast, you were involved in the

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Speaker 1: horses when we were in the police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I decided to go for a career changed

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Speaker 2: about twenty five years into the job. I was a

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Speaker 2: detective senior sergeant, and I decided that I'd give something

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Speaker 2: different a crack, and I was asked to take over

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Speaker 2: the matter section to try and fix some of the

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Speaker 2: problems there and in the end I had fifteen years

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Speaker 2: there and with the dogs God as well, traveling the

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Speaker 2: world talking about matter and policing all through the world.

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Speaker 2: So he was quite surreal that alone. And of course

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Speaker 2: I got to meet people like hethe Harris who was

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Speaker 2: responsible for horses and things like Gallipoli, and a man

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Speaker 2: from Snowy River and so I a famous force trainer,

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Speaker 2: and that was through the police because New South Wells

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Speaker 2: Police were using him to train their police forces, and

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Speaker 2: I thought that's a good gig. We're going to have

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Speaker 2: a crack at this, and they did well.

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Speaker 1: It's nice having a fallback position after the police. You

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Speaker 1: enjoy the police, but you never know where that's going

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Speaker 1: to take you or when it's time to leave. So

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Speaker 1: a good good thing to have a back up. The

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Speaker 1: actual TV series we're talking about run related to Brendan Abbot.

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Speaker 1: For people that don't know Brendan Abbott, he escaped from

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Speaker 1: prison twice. I think he escaped from a police station

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Speaker 1: once before that. Was on the run for years. Bank Robber,

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Speaker 1: the notorious bank robber and at the peak of his activity,

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Speaker 1: he is probably Australia's most wanted wanted man. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that investigation and your involvement in the investigation,

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Speaker 1: but just to give the listeners an understanding about who

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Speaker 1: Brendan was as a person, how would you describe him?

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Speaker 1: Because he had such a high profile.

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Speaker 2: Brendan was a four full criminal and I underlined criminal.

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Speaker 2: From a young age, he'd gone through a series of

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Speaker 2: issues with family. He was made a ward of the state.

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Speaker 2: His mother put him up for a warden of the state.

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Speaker 2: He went into a boy's home. That's where he learnt

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Speaker 2: his trade. At eighteen, he started committing your normal petty offenses,

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Speaker 2: but he was also a little bit more organized than most.

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Speaker 2: He initially took on stealing electrical goods from shops and

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Speaker 2: reselling them at a bit of a side hustle, and

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Speaker 2: from there he was pulled in by the detectives at

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Speaker 2: Nola marac Iv and that's when he made his first

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Speaker 2: escape through the back door of the police station. From

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Speaker 2: there he went on to bigger and better things and

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Speaker 2: eventually went on to become the drop in bandit. He

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Speaker 2: took on a bank and dropped through the ceiling of

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Speaker 2: a bank that hadn't been done w a before that

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Speaker 2: created the initial start of a myth behind the man,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately he was arrested at Perth Airport and charged

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Speaker 2: with the robbery, got a sentence, and then that's when

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Speaker 2: things really kicked off.

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Speaker 1: Hear what you're saying and watching the documentary and reading

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Speaker 1: up about Brendan, And it's not glorifying crime. We know

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Speaker 1: from being police officers the impact those type of crimes

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Speaker 1: can have. But there was something about him in the

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Speaker 1: way that he carried out the crimes. And we'll delve

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Speaker 1: into that because I think it's very interesting you talking

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Speaker 1: about the investigation how he was eventually caught. But let's

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Speaker 1: learn before we go into that, Let's learn a little

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Speaker 1: bit about yourself. Where did you grow.

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Speaker 2: Up in Perth and a little bit in the Northwest.

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Speaker 2: I initially wanted to join the army and that's all

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do. And I got as far as

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Speaker 2: almost accepting in to apprentices school at fifteen when my father,

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Speaker 2: who had served in the Navy, said you're not going.

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Speaker 2: You're too young, so he can that and I said, well,

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Speaker 2: what am I going to do? Can I join the police?

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Speaker 2: He said sure, So fifteen I applied for the police

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Speaker 2: I've got images. I just turned seventeen at and then

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Speaker 2: spent the next few years bouncing around doing different jobs

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Speaker 2: till I decided what I wanted to do. I spent

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Speaker 2: some time in the pipe band because I played the

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Speaker 2: bagpipes as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you did, you ride horses, play the bagpipes.

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Speaker 1: You do all sorts of things here in negotiator. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah.

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Speaker 2: I did a couple of years in the pipe band,

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Speaker 2: and then I decided I'll give traffic at a court

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Speaker 2: go and tore around on my motorbike and love that.

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Speaker 2: And then I got into an investigative section in the

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Speaker 2: traffic branch, which was run by an old protective ex

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Speaker 2: detective sergeant, and he said, I think you should be

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Speaker 2: a detective. So he arranged for me to go and

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Speaker 2: see the chief super of the COB at the time,

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Speaker 2: probably the most harrowing interview I've ever done. I didn't

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Speaker 2: realize it was an interview. I went in there and

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Speaker 2: he just hammered me for about forty minutes. Made me

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Speaker 2: say something silly about letting a shotlifter be summoned, and

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Speaker 2: he hammered me for that. Then he threw the criminal

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Speaker 2: Code at me and said now find Arson, and I'd

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Speaker 2: been given a tip on what to do when he said, fine, Arsen,

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Speaker 2: never go to the front, go to the back. So

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Speaker 2: I went to the back about Arson, answered the questions

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Speaker 2: stood out and thought, I've really blown this interview. I'm

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Speaker 2: never going to be a detective, shook his hand, said

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Speaker 2: thanks for the moment, went back to the office. By

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Speaker 2: the time I got back to the office, while Jack

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Speaker 2: Dearing had run Bill, my boss and said he's a

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Speaker 2: good fellow. We're going to take him just to tell

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Speaker 2: him his comment. He's joined the CIB and far out well.

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Speaker 2: So that's how how my life's detective started.

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Speaker 1: What the year was that?

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Speaker 2: What that was nineteen eighty five?

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Speaker 1: Ok, that's We had something similar in New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: If you wanted to become a detective you had to

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Speaker 1: pass what they call the bull ring. And I think

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Speaker 1: it was aptly call the bull ring for a reason

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Speaker 1: because you'd have three old, cranky detective sergeants sitting at

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Speaker 1: the table opposite you and like at sounds, look what

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Speaker 1: you went through. Put the pressure on you. Just see

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Speaker 1: how you're going to react, Just really stir you up,

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Speaker 1: and how you come across that dictates whether you get

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Speaker 1: the invite into become a detective or plane clothes.

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Speaker 2: I think had I'd not been told about the index

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Speaker 2: on the criminal Code, it probably would have been in

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Speaker 2: traffic for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: Well it's handy to have informants, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I learned very early in those days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of inside knowledge that might have

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Speaker 1: been part of the test you also got into. And

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Speaker 1: I want to break it all down, but just again

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Speaker 1: to give you a sense, the listener, a sense of

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Speaker 1: the diversity of work that you've done within the police.

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Speaker 1: In negoshading. You were in negotiater at some stage.

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Speaker 2: I was, at the same time as becoming a detective.

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Speaker 2: I was also what we had apart time emergency Squad,

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Speaker 2: which became the TRG, which is the Tactical Road. So

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Speaker 2: I was an operator in that, and we were off

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Speaker 2: doing course in that type of thing, and I saw

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Speaker 2: negotiaters and I thought, yeah, that's pretty cool. So I

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Speaker 2: made the choice become a detective, and then eventually gave

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Speaker 2: the tactical side up and when that became full time,

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Speaker 2: and then later on became a negotiator, a hostage negotiator,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I went to Queensland, did all the courses

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Speaker 2: and ended up some pretty fascinating jobs as a negotiator

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Speaker 2: in wa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you were telling me about one that you're involved

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Speaker 1: in that I want to touch on later on in

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Speaker 1: the podcast, but it was particularly particularly interesting when you

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Speaker 1: were looking at the Brendan Abbot case. How did you

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Speaker 1: get involved in that? At what stage of your career

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Speaker 1: was he first came across your raidar.

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Speaker 2: I was in the seventy nine division about between ninety

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Speaker 2: two and ninety four, and I was a detective senior

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Speaker 2: constable and that seventy nine division was crime cars, so

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Speaker 2: you ninety percent of the time you're working nights and

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Speaker 2: roving around the metropolitan area. They used to have four

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Speaker 2: detective cars or neron division, one uniform, one detective permanent

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Speaker 2: partners roaming around the city and it was fantastic. There

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Speaker 2: was just excitement every night it was and seventy nine

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Speaker 2: division was that, you know, that was the go to

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Speaker 2: crew for the night if you had a major crime.

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Speaker 2: We do the initial stuff. From there, I got promoted

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Speaker 2: detectives ergeant and so I had to leave and I

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Speaker 2: got sent to robbery squad. So from there I went

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Speaker 2: to four years at arm robbery and I took over

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Speaker 2: a team, a team of three guys and myself, and

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Speaker 2: of course all the files for that team were just

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Speaker 2: landed on my desk and I was just going through

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Speaker 2: the files and I came across one that said Operation

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Speaker 2: Elma Fudd and that's what they called it, and that

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Speaker 2: was into Brendan Abbott. And this was five years after

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Speaker 2: his escape. So I've been on the run. We've been

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Speaker 2: they've been chasing around the country trying to get, you know,

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Speaker 2: leads on him. But really in those days, the states

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Speaker 2: were very siloed. They would he kind of be interested

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Speaker 2: in what they were doing unless you were doing interchange

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Speaker 2: between squads, which at that stage had since ceased, so

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Speaker 2: there wasn't much sharing. So I mean, I'm reading Operation

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Speaker 2: All the Fund, which was about Brendan Abbott, and it

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Speaker 2: sparked a memory of mine. While I've been in seventy

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Speaker 2: nine Division, which is that I had we went to

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Speaker 2: a domestic, violent domestic and I was talking to a

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Speaker 2: woman there by the name of Kelly Fisher, who was

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Speaker 2: the de facto of Glenn Sammott aka Glenn Abbott, which

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Speaker 2: was the younger brother of Brendan Abbott and she was

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Speaker 2: pretty angry with Glenn at the time, and she started

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Speaker 2: telling her stuff and she said, oh, that he was

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Speaker 2: over east, and I reckon he was with his brother,

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Speaker 2: Brendan Abbott, between such and such states, And that sparked

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Speaker 2: a memory because when I was reading through the files

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Speaker 2: and as the investigation went on, a gunshop robbery came up,

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Speaker 2: and the Gold Coast and it was near the Pink

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Speaker 2: Poodle Hotel, and those things clicked the timing, the fact

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Speaker 2: that maybe suspected that Brennan was involved with that. So

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Speaker 2: I changed tact on the investigation, which was initially focusing

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Speaker 2: on informants and the family. Here the whole family too,

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Speaker 2: focusing on Glenn because to me, that was a proven connection.

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Speaker 1: It's not a bad way to run or focus an investigation.

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Speaker 1: If that's a connection, then I assume you're working on

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Speaker 1: the belief that as two brothers, they had a bond

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Speaker 1: and they would likely meet up at some stage.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And the other thing that sparked my

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Speaker 2: interest obvious is that we couldn't find him. We could

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Speaker 2: not find Glenn Sham anywhere. We didn't know where he lived.

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Speaker 2: We eventually we founded Glenn Salmon, a Glenn Norman Salmon

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Speaker 2: working in a factory in Bayswater. So for the next

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Speaker 2: week we set surveillance up until we realized that this

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Speaker 2: was a different Glenn Norman Salmon. It wasn't our guy,

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Speaker 2: so we just continued on trying to find him. We've

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Speaker 2: got a lucky break. We got some information that that

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Speaker 2: Glenn Salmon we were looking for was appearing in court

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Speaker 2: and Mandra for a speeding driving offense. So we set

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Speaker 2: up on that date and sure enough we picked him

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Speaker 2: up and we conducted surveillance on him and we found

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Speaker 2: he was living covertly in Mandrara, which is south of Perth,

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Speaker 2: under a false name, false rental agreement, false bank, false everything,

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Speaker 2: completely covert, and so that was our focus. We started

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Speaker 2: working on him very closely surveillance or as much as

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Speaker 2: of the svealance we could get on him, and we

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Speaker 2: worked through our tactics of what we're going to do

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Speaker 2: to try and see whether he linked up with Brendan,

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Speaker 2: which became a story on its own.

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Speaker 1: The way you talk surveillance and it was a different

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Speaker 1: ballgame back then, Wasn't it a lot of physical surveillance.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have the technology tracking phones as much as

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Speaker 1: available today, and it was easier in a cash society

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Speaker 1: to go off the radar and not track people. So

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Speaker 1: I would imagine when you found the hideout that Glenn

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Speaker 1: had or where he was off the off the records,

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Speaker 1: that would have felt like a good step in the

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Speaker 1: right direction.

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Speaker 2: Look, we knew we were onto something and I was

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Speaker 2: this stage talking both Sid Thomas and South Australia and

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Speaker 2: Jerry Costello in Queensland and ultimately then Clan Pritchard who

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Speaker 2: was a detective on the Gold Coast, And can I

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Speaker 2: add at this throughout this investigation, even before the five

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Speaker 2: years before me, a lot of credit must go to

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Speaker 2: the guys who were doing the previous investigation, a lot

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Speaker 2: of credit to Sid Thomas, and a lot of credits

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Speaker 2: to Jerry Costello who were detective sergeants in their respective jurisdiction.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't wasn't a one man, one team, one

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Speaker 2: state job. And by this stage we got up a

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Speaker 2: better communication between states.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the first breakout from Freemantle Prison, just

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Speaker 1: so people have got a sense of what we're dealing

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Speaker 1: here with Brendan Abbott, because it's pretty ballsy, as most

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Speaker 1: prison breaks are because the consequences are if it goes

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Speaker 1: bad that they can be shot, as the corrective services

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Speaker 1: are entitled to do. How did he break out the

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Speaker 1: Freemantle I've been the Freemantle Prison and those that don't

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Speaker 1: know that it's a very old style prison, the way

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Speaker 1: you'd expect something from the previous century, sandstone blocks and

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Speaker 1: iron bars. How did he actually break out of there?

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Speaker 2: So that to take a step back, there was a

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Speaker 2: prison riot and Brendan was one of the people involved

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Speaker 2: in the right and ultimately had to base court with

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Speaker 2: a number of a defendants and they were going to

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Speaker 2: and from court high security every day during the trial.

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Speaker 2: And that this is important because Brendan was they'd take

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Speaker 2: off their prison greens, they would put on civilian clothes

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Speaker 2: they'd taken to the prison, come back, strip off, and

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Speaker 2: over that period he was able to accumulate some civilian

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Speaker 2: clothes obviously take one item every now and then and so,

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Speaker 2: and he stashed those away. So he was always thinking

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Speaker 2: about escape. So we move along post the prison riot trial.

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Speaker 2: He's convicted, he's got extra time and a sentence. He

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Speaker 2: got himself into the prison tailor shop where they were

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Speaker 2: making uniforms, prisoners, gear, overalls and this type of thing.

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Speaker 2: And I think it dawned on him very early that

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Speaker 2: he needed He couldn't just tunnel out. He couldn't go

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Speaker 2: out just over the wall. We couldn't walk out. So

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Speaker 2: he had to come up with a pretty devious plan.

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Speaker 2: And the plan he came up with was to look like,

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Speaker 2: get out of the tailor sho shop through the bars,

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Speaker 2: get across the roof and over the wall. He had

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Speaker 2: a pretty good idea of the setup of the prison

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Speaker 2: because during the course of the trial there were maps

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Speaker 2: shown at the prison, and obviously he took those in

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Speaker 2: so he knew roughly where he had to go to

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Speaker 2: get out over the wall, and the tailor shop gave

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Speaker 2: him that access. So he'd managed to secure getting hold

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Speaker 2: of a hacksaw blades through the workshop there, and he'd

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Speaker 2: also managed to get onto making overalls, and once days

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Speaker 2: they'd had the overalls stashed away and made and they

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Speaker 2: were cutting through the bars over a long period, but

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Speaker 2: one of the bars broke early, so they made the

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Speaker 2: decision to go there. And then that was him Reynolds

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Speaker 2: and a guy called I actually can't remember soon on

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Speaker 2: the other one, but so they were going to do

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Speaker 2: to get out. They saw through the bars. Three of

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Speaker 2: them got through the window across the roof. They had

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Speaker 2: to jump agap. Reynolds and Abbott got over the gap,

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Speaker 2: and the third one fell down the gap and broke

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Speaker 2: his leg. So they continued on this gap through the

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Speaker 2: roofs over the wall, they dropped a big drop and

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Speaker 2: scarp and getting rid of the overalls, they had civilian

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Speaker 2: clothes underneath. From there they got on a bus and

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Speaker 2: went and got a hamburger from hungry Jacks and then

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Speaker 2: continued on their merry way. And Abbot ran for five

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Speaker 2: month or five.

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Speaker 1: Years, breaking down a couple of things. The jump the gap,

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Speaker 1: like prisoners are set up not to escape, So I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that's a pretty big gap and consequences if

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Speaker 1: you fail that gap. But I suppose if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to bust out of the prison, you highly motivated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And look they had a good run up to it,

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Speaker 2: and they got across, and of course one of them

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Speaker 2: didn't didn't quite make it. I think it was it

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Speaker 2: was quite a gap. And of course the prison guards

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Speaker 2: are seeing people in what they initially thought were overalls,

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Speaker 2: prison overalls as prison officers, so they got a fair

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Speaker 2: distance before it was realized that they were they were

359
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Speaker 2: escaping prisoners, So it was pretty ingenious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the fact that the planning, because in the

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Speaker 1: people I've spoken to or I know that they've escaped

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Speaker 1: from prison, you tend to have two types, ones that

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Speaker 1: are planning it and ones that are opportunistic that they're

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Speaker 1: just see a moment and they decide to take the chance.

365
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Speaker 1: And I've got to say most people that get out

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Speaker 1: of prison get caught relatively soon after because there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of focus from law enforcement. Obviously, if someone's busted

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Speaker 1: out of jail, it's a humiliation to the corrective services.

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Speaker 1: It's almost waving the red flag at police and corrective

370
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Speaker 1: services if you've escaped from escape from prison. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of work goes into it, and most people that

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Speaker 1: escape from prison don't spend that long on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the wall before they get caught. Brendan for

374
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Speaker 1: out on the run for five years five or six

375
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Speaker 1: six years.

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Speaker 2: Five years, five years, whereas Reynolds, the fellow he escaped with,

377
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Speaker 2: he didn't take long to get caught, And that was

378
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Speaker 2: showing the difference between two types of crip Brendan was

379
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Speaker 2: the thinker. Reynolds was the opportunist and not as I

380
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Speaker 2: don't think has had the smarts of Brendan had. And

381
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Speaker 2: Brendan got rid of Reynolds in the end when he

382
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Speaker 2: realized he was a liability. And that was one of

383
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: the things. Brennan was always thinking about staying out. Reynolds

384
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Speaker 2: was always thinking about what can I do next? Because

385
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Speaker 2: I'm enjoying this life. There was one was a strategic

386
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Speaker 2: thinker and the.

387
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Speaker 1: Other knot What sawt of things? Did your assessment of it?

388
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Speaker 1: And you've been heavily involved in the investigation. What saw

389
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,199
Speaker 1: the things? Was Brendan doing that set himself apart in

390
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Speaker 1: being strategic enough to keep that low profile and slip

391
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Speaker 1: under the radar.

392
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Speaker 2: I think staying on the move and keeping a low

393
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Speaker 2: profile when he was on the move and doing things

394
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Speaker 2: that people would normally do. I mean he went on

395
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Speaker 2: an I think it was a kentiquy tour or a

396
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: tour through the through Lord and Territory, met up with

397
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Speaker 2: a Japanese tourist. They just look like pals. They headed

398
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Speaker 2: off and climb There's ulu As Rock as it was called.

399
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: Ben did real touristy stuff that didn't draw attention when

400
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: they If he did a job, he planned the job

401
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,479
Speaker 2: and left no trace. Really, most of the stuff he

402
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: was nailed for is based on his m O and

403
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: maybe some you know, caught with some of the items

404
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 2: later on. But so he was a He was a

405
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Speaker 2: thinker and I often said he thinks like a good detective.

406
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: You know, he just what. I'll conceptualize a plan, I'll

407
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Speaker 2: analyze it and I'll figure out where this plan is

408
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: going to go. But I always have a plan BEAR,

409
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Speaker 2: and a plan C and a plan D.

410
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: And minimize and reduce the risk. You talked about MA.

411
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: I know when I worked in the hold up Squad

412
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: it was familiar with Brendan Abbott because it was around

413
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: that same time when he was on the run. So

414
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: you know we were were in New South Wales that

415
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: you had a bloat that was traveling around robbing different places.

416
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: But I remember my work in the arm hold up Squad.

417
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: The MA was the type of things that you'd link

418
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: the crimes to. It was a way that people approached

419
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Speaker 1: It might be the words of what they say when

420
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Speaker 1: they storm into the bank, what they wear just said,

421
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 1: demeanor and the way that they would conduct themselves. What

422
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: type of bank robber was Brendan? How did he go

423
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Speaker 1: about when he was in the bank.

424
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Speaker 2: Well, he'd start before he was in the bank. He

425
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: does surveillance, so he knew the setup, he knew who

426
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: was who. He did a lot of planning. He understood

427
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: the alarm systems. He was technically pretty adapt He liked tinkering,

428
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: taking things apart. The family always talked he'd take radios

429
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: apart and put them back together and so on. So

430
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: he understood technology, and so he'd do all that groundwork.

431
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: He'd find out times when things were drived, when the

432
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: vault was going to be open, when staff arrived, So

433
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: a lot of groundwork. So that was before he went

434
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Speaker 2: in the bank. So when he went in the bank,

435
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 2: it was relatively smooth. Whether he came through the ceiling,

436
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 2: whether he was already in the bank, or he was

437
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 2: coming in through the front door. He just knew what

438
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: was going to happen. He was ahead of everyone, you know,

439
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 2: a couple of the jobs. He'd actually done things to

440
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: the alarms. He'd put listening devices into various banks to

441
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: hear who was in there, so he knew what was

442
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: going on. But then when he went in. He was

443
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: very he unlike some of his people he went with,

444
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 2: he was very systematic about what he was doing. I mean,

445
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: anything that went wrong in the bank usually was one

446
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: of his co offenders to do something dumb and stupid,

447
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: and so he would minimize the risk by knowing exactly

448
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: what was going on, you know, And I think that's

449
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 2: what made him apart from other bank robbers. I mean

450
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: I worked on a lot of bank robbers, you know.

451
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: I can remember one. You can see him rushing on

452
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: the camera going into the bank with a sauna, but

453
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: he hasn't put his balaklava on. His nose is sticking

454
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 2: through his eye hole and he runs into the door.

455
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: This is the type of character you were dealing with.

456
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 2: Whereas Brendan had done is he's pre planning.

457
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: So he was on after escaping from Fremantle Prison. He's

458
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: on the on the run for five years. Are you

459
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: is at the stage you started looking at it on

460
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: that run at that stage or is this after he

461
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: got locked up again.

462
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: No. I started working on him at the at the

463
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: end of his five run five years, when they were

464
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 2: all celebrating, We were getting you know, we were picking

465
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: up messages on various people's phones or whatever that you know,

466
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: congratulations on your five years from a couple who knew

467
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: the family and so on. So that's when I picked

468
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: it up. And that's a real thumbing nose. Now Ley's

469
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 2: talked about thumbing the nose and the postcard. It's pretty

470
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: well known now that he didn't send postcards. After he

471
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: escaped with Reynolds, there was a purshuit, a pretty wild purshoot.

472
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 2: Seventy nine Division working nights had got behind him and

473
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: he was driving a Cordier. He was driving and Reynolds

474
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: was the passenger, and they'd done a break in on

475
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 2: a gun shop and got a couple of shotguns and

476
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: obviously to do hold ups. So when the chase was on,

477
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: Reynolds was hanging out the window firing at shotgun at

478
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 2: the car. The car got dumped in a Perth northern suburb,

479
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 2: and Abbott and Reynolds had hidden the shotguns in a

480
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: sandpile out in front of the house and then run

481
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: and hit in the bush and as we say, went doggo.

482
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: So they lay still, and of course the search went

483
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: on and on and on. They stayed where they were.

484
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: They weren't picked up. Cobbs got pretty close to them, apparently,

485
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: and by daylight they just made off and got away.

486
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: But in the car was all their camping gear. They'd

487
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 2: been camping out in the bushdown and dwelling Up. They

488
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: bought a hip of camping gear and so on, and

489
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: they found a camera, one of those disposable old cameras,

490
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: and developed the film and sure enough there's Reynolds standing

491
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: outside the dwelling Up police station. It looked like a

492
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: postcard taken by Abbott. And so that was before I

493
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: got there, one of the and when I was there,

494
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: we liked generating publicity because publicity got people talking.

495
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: It puts a pressure on someone on the run.

496
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: Yes it does, and that was one of the main

497
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: tools we used, and they had been used. So the

498
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: photographs were released to the press. I think it was

499
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: the Austrasian Post at the time who decided to think

500
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: run the story that was a postcard. We didn't say

501
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: no because that then got everybody interested, and that's how

502
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: the myth of the postcard bandit started.

503
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's interesting, and from a tactical point of view,

504
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: I understand that too, because it puts the pressure, keeps

505
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: people talking about it and that, Yeah, makes it hard

506
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: for someone like Brendan trying to be keeping a low profile.

507
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: So how did he actually get caught after the five years?

508
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: What was the catalyst for that?

509
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: Look, I think it was just under two years that

510
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: we worked solidly on him. You know, we were dealing

511
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: with other armed robberies all the time and that.

512
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: And you just a reference it again. You said from

513
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: South Australia, Sid the Thomas sergeant there said Thomas. And

514
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: from Queensland.

515
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jerry Costello and Glenn Pritchard. Jerry was robbers in

516
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: Brisbane and Glenn was at broad Beach CIB at the time.

517
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: I think it was. So we were dealing with them constantly.

518
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: We had lesser dealings with Northern Territory, Victoria and New South.

519
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: Any time there was a bank robbery, with any imagination,

520
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: it suddenly became Brendan Abbott.

521
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can get drowned in that.

522
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: And look some of them were and some of who

523
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: was never charged with because we didn't have the evidence.

524
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: But you know, Brendan Abbott. Every time it's a bank robbery,

525
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: was it Brendan Abbott? And we were getting sightings in

526
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: w A. I remember we got contacted by a UCO

527
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: who was working on a drug job who said that

528
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: Brandan Abbott had come in on this fella's place. We

529
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: were never able to confirm that that was the UCO's

530
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: identification obviously didn't say he was Brendan Abbott. So there

531
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: was lots of these these rabbit holes we were running down.

532
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: But having decided to work on Glenn, we came up

533
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: with a strategy of what we were going.

534
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: To and how just on that, how did that play

535
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: out for you guys like from different different states. It

536
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: sounds like you got the a team together of three

537
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: or four obsessed detective sergeants from different locations. And it's

538
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: got to become personal, hasn't it when you when you're

539
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: chasing the blake that long, and it's not personal in

540
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: the negative sense, But you've got to be driven.

541
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: Look, this is you know, and you know from being

542
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: an executive that if you if you get something that

543
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: really interests you, that's got a bit too that you

544
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: don't want to let it go, you know, and so

545
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: you really push for it. And of course you also

546
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: know that from above hierarchy is saying, hey, pull your

547
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: head in. That's not the only case you got you're

548
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: not getting these resources, you're not getting this, you're not

549
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: getting that focus on and so you've got a kind

550
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: of your butt edge with hierarchy as well, which we did.

551
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: But working on Gwen, knowing he was driving around while suspended,

552
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: I decided to run a strategy on him and when

553
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: knew a car he had, So what I was going

554
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: to do was pull him up, leave his car on

555
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: the side of the road, get him processed through as

556
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: driving on suspension in his real name. And then what

557
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: we had done was we had did a rehearsal on

558
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: the same type of vehicle of instilling in putting in

559
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: a listening device and a tracking device, all new technology

560
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: for the time. So we did that. We knew how

561
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: long it was going to take us to do it,

562
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: and that was the plan. So anyway, we seven year

563
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: OD Division, couple of fellows, Brahan Randall and Doug Nelson

564
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: who I later worked with Doug at M Robbie when

565
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: he became a detective. He was in uniform at the

566
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: time they pulled up Abbott. As part of the plan,

567
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: surveillance was on sorry Salmon that pulled up Salmon. Surveilance

568
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: were on him for the moment up until it became

569
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: an interaction between policing him. So surveillance pulled off and

570
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: I give him these instructions, which were to if he

571
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: identifies his self as Glenn Salmon, just lock him up.

572
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: Don't do anything else, just lock him up for driving

573
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: it suspension to leave the car there. We'll deal with it.

574
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 2: We'll get the keys and we'll deal with it. So

575
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 2: when they pulled them up, Glenn was being a bit

576
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: shady and the Graham started searching the vehicle and in

577
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: the back he found what looked like a silencer to

578
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: a gun, and so Doug rainy and said, look, we've

579
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: got him here. He's also produced a false identification, a

580
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: Northern Territory license, and so I said to him, whatever

581
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: you do, just let him go because we needed him

582
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: to be with his real identification. We'll get another chance

583
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: for it. So he said, yeah, no, ours, we'll let

584
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: him go. In that time, Graham had also found some ammunition,

585
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: whizzed Abbot about it and Oh Salmon about it, and

586
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: then got Salmon got out of oc spray a pepper

587
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: strode sprayed both in the eyes. A fight started. They

588
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: were rolling around fighting. Salmon had managed to remove one

589
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: of the officer's gun from his holster. Had the gun

590
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: upside down, so it was holding it like that, and

591
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: it was pressed into the stomach at the officer. I'm

592
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: pretty sure that was Randal, and we saw it later

593
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: because we could see that the whole imprint of the

594
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: gun in his stomach. And this fight went on for

595
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: a while. Two coppers blinded, they managed to get the

596
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: gun out of his hands, throw the gun away. A

597
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: bysender then picked it up and took it away while

598
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: they eventually got him into custody. After that, Nelson ranged

599
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: me and I said, did you let him go? What

600
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: the fuck's going on? And they then he told me

601
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: the story. Oh Jesus, surveillance are pulled off, so no

602
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: one who was seeing this going on until after it

603
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 2: had been resolved. So we made a decision that Salmon

604
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: should just be dealt with as that incident, not talk

605
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: about Brendan, not talk about anything. While we got a

606
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: pager off him, we found other guns, We found pistols

607
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: in the car and so on, so we thought we'll

608
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: follow those leads down while he's in custody and being

609
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 2: dealt with, so we knew he would be remaining in

610
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: custody and let seventy nine Division deal with that side

611
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: of it. We stayed right out of it. Meanwhile, we're

612
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 2: then looking at the pager messages and we can see

613
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: he's got direct links to Brendan some of the messages.

614
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: So we worked on it. I think we left it

615
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: for twenty four hours and had him brought up from

616
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: Canning Vaal Remand and Shackles their tactical people shuffled him in.

617
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: We put him in an interview and our aim was

618
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: to try and elicit Brendan's whereabouts room to give him

619
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: give Brendan up using the fact that we knew that

620
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: he had a new child coming I think the kid

621
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: had just been born or was about to be born,

622
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: that he was going to go away for a long,

623
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: long time un left. He helped us all these negotiation

624
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: tactics and over a period of about five hours working on it,

625
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: eventually we went through the whole gamble of emotions with him. Now,

626
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: this is a hardened crook who initially didn't want to

627
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 2: talk to us, to the fact that okay, I'll give

628
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: you a post office box, and his thinking was that

629
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: he would be able to get to Brendan as soon

630
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: as he got back to the vision to warn him

631
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: not to his post office box. So as soon as

632
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: we got that detail straight on the phone too Wesland,

633
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: they went straight down, raided the post office, got into

634
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: the post office box, found a bill for an address

635
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast, set up surveillance opposite this high

636
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: rise which was quite a high up in the thing,

637
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: and we're watching directly across and shure it up, there's Brendan.

638
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: I think they told me he was naked, ironing shirts

639
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: and so on. Meanwhile, we let Samon go back to prison.

640
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: He was dealt with all that. He was very unhappy

641
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: with us. We got a message shortly after saying on

642
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: the thing that the page's dirty girl is off, so

643
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: in other words, Kelly's off, and so he got a

644
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: warning that we'd already set up in the Tavannes. They

645
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: saw him go downstairs carrying a couple of bags. He

646
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: was wearing his bum bag because he was always known

647
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: to be armed, and then the bum bag was always

648
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: a pistol, and they were kind of caught off footed

649
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: because things were moving very fast. But they had a

650
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: Savannaes guy down there down below, so everybody's charging downstairs.

651
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: The Savannas guy is moving towards him, and I later

652
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: spoke to Brendan and he thought he was about to

653
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: be mugged. The Savannahs guy pulls out his gun pointed

654
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: at Brendan. Brendan thinks, have I got time to get

655
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: to my gun? He hasn't. He lies down and he's

656
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 2: arrested and the cavalry come in. That's the summary of

657
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 2: the arrest and how that first arrest happened.

658
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: It's interesting a couple of points there, and I think

659
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: people will be fascinated about what goes on in the

660
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: negotiations when you arrest someone or you're dealing with him

661
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: in an interview room. And you talked about with Glenn Salmon,

662
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: Brendan's brother, how the thing that you had to negotiate

663
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: was how long he was going to spend in prison

664
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: and a young family, and they're the type of things

665
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: I think that's fair on the table put in. That's

666
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: just the realities of the world in the type of

667
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: the crimes that these guys are involved in, and these

668
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: are the type of things that police officers have to

669
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: bargain with and quite appropriately, I would suggest.

670
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: Well, we had raided his house the night before the night,

671
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: so the next day he was brought into us. That

672
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: night after the incident, we raided his house and we

673
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: found all sorts of stuff. We found a picture on

674
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: a wall of a blank driver's license for Northern Territory

675
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: and Western Australia, and so you'd stand in front of it,

676
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 2: they'd add in the detail, take the photo suddenly you've

677
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: gotten and then reduce it down. We found a stolen

678
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: police id. We found pistols with silencers, without a taser.

679
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: I later found out that he'd uced the taser on

680
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: himself to see what it was like, and it took

681
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: him about a day to recover. It was one of

682
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: those ones the old style had about one hundred and

683
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: twenty thousand bolts go through. Look, it was a very

684
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: long interview. There was two of us, another detective Steve Drown,

685
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: a very good detective. We were bouncing off and we

686
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: weren't doing so much good cop, bad cop. You know,

687
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: it's you have to tailor how you speak to someone

688
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 2: when you're interviewing him, and so it took some time,

689
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: and you know, to get that post office box. I

690
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: think Glenn was thinking, I'll give you that and I'll

691
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: be solved the problem because I'll be able to warm Brendan.

692
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: Not realizing how quickly and how prepared we were to move.

693
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: Well, how did you guys collectively as a team, all

694
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: the people looking looking for Brendan Pheel when he was

695
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: taken in the custody.

696
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 2: I think there are a few beers to be had,

697
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: as they as should be. I mean, I was pretty

698
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: well on the plane very quickly because we had stuff

699
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: we wanted to talk to him about, and you want

700
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: to get in there as quick as you can. By

701
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: this stage he was at Waco prison. Sid Thomas came

702
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 2: up from South Australia. So Jerry, Sid and I went

703
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: to Waco prison to interview. It's funny, you know. When

704
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: we went into the prison, they said they had an

705
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: interview room for him, and Abbott was in the corridor,

706
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: standing up against the wall, and he just did not

707
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: even acknowledge us, wouldn't even look at us. I think

708
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: Jerry had already to him, so there was at least

709
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: some recognition that there was an association there. And so

710
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: he was into an interview room and over the next

711
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: two hours we went from nothing to talking about the

712
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: cricket and there was really an interesting two hours. I mean,

713
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 2: there were three of us, so I went there with

714
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: pretty well no expectation he was ever going to cough

715
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: to anything, but we still had to ask. I wanted

716
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: to hear what he had to say, but probably more

717
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: likely he wanted to know what we knew and how

718
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: he was caught. Of course we weren't going to tell

719
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: him that either, so it was a bit of a

720
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: cat and mouse talking about what we're going on, about

721
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: how things had happened and so on. But from my perspective,

722
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: for any crimes that he committed in wa it was

723
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: not that he wasn't going to confess to anything. And

724
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: you know, we had the identifications had been tainted by

725
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: newspaper articles. We'd found the identification of Brendan had been

726
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: done earlier stages by showing the witness and newspaper article

727
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 2: of Brendan Appott with the headlined suspect for that bank

728
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: hold up. Well, that's that's going to go nowhere.

729
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:16,959
Speaker 1: You've blown that for the course.

730
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we really had nothing And my view was

731
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: at that by that stage, unless he was going to

732
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: give us anything, he was going to do a long

733
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: stretch in Queensland anyway, and likely a stretch in Adelaide.

734
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: So did they have it? Did they have him for well,

735
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: you've got him for a Western Australia for escape custody,

736
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: but did they have him for other jobs? They had

737
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: him locked in because yeah.

738
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: They had him for jobs in Queensland that there was

739
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: stuff they had, They had good CCTV. So he was charged.

740
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: He fought every charge every step of the way. And

741
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: that came out later on when all the committal hearings

742
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: were occurring, and.

743
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: He charged for robbing the bank, leading not guilty and

744
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: fighter that.

745
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: And Chris Niss was his lawyer, and I have to say,

746
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: what a articulate Yeah, he was obviously good counsel, could

747
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: every money yeah yeah. And and really as far as

748
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: the charges was on, I had a very small part

749
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 2: in it. Still copped as you do in those days.

750
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 2: We did. I expected to get a hard time.

751
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: It was a it was a different different world than

752
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: you got ripped apart and a good good defense barrissa

753
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: or solicitor seemed to have open slather on you that

754
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: could just question everything you get out of the witness

755
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: box sometimes and not even sure if your name is

756
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: actually Glenn.

757
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, you know, but I think also we came.

758
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 2: We come from a time when I used to enjoy court. Yeah,

759
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: it was, you know, it was a contest, whereas these

760
00:42:58,520 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: days no one goes to courtney law.

761
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: Well, the evidence was it was different from the evidence

762
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: you gather now. Sometimes the evidence that we get with

763
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: electronic CCTV links to phones and all that, it's overwhelming

764
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: by the time it's presented at court. Quite often, it

765
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: was when you were taking people to court for the

766
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: stick ups. Back in those days it was identification. You

767
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: might get lucky and have a fingerprint on the or

768
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: hair in an abandoned balaclava or something like that. So yeah,

769
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: I can imagine. I'm just interested in the psyche of

770
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: him speaking to him shortly after and you said two

771
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: hours you spend with him, he starts to talk cricket

772
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: did he have? Was it like I would imagine life

773
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: on the run would be a very stressful situation. You

774
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: have to be hyper alert the whole time. Was there

775
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: a sense of relief or did he still come across

776
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: as a caged animal he.

777
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: Did not want to be there. Yeah, I sense that

778
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: he was. He was going to get out. You know

779
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: he was going to try and get out. There was

780
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: no way he was going to go, oh, well you

781
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: got me now, it's a fair cop. And that came

782
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: from the fact that he was trying to elicit information

783
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: from us, right. He wanted to know everything, not just

784
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: how he got caught, but what we knew, what offenses

785
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: he committed. He was only going to tell us, and

786
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: he only told us what we had absolute proof on.

787
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 2: He talked about a radio he got out of the

788
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: police academy and adelaide and laughed about that. He didn't

789
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: tell us who got that for him, but he had

790
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: a police radio.

791
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: Oh, police radio?

792
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So yeah. It was a very interesting discussion.

793
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: And I remember afterwards listening because they had LD's listening devices.

794
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: And I can say this now in the visitors rooms

795
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: at the time for Abbott and the family were in there,

796
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: and the family he told his brother to get up

797
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: to Cairns and you with his safe safe house or

798
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: safe workshop or whatever it was up there. So Queensland

799
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: got onto that pretty quick. The family weren't involved with

800
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: his apart from Glenn. And also people talk about how

801
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: much money he a stolen, you know, as talk of

802
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: in one two million dollars at that time was a

803
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: lot of money. And but how expensive it is to

804
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: be on the run like he was everywhere was you

805
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: cost him, cost him through paying people off, cost him

806
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: through hotels, cars, travel. He was flying business class around

807
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: the country doing his jobs. You know, he'd put on

808
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: a suit and looked like a businessman with a wig.

809
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: He was doing disguises. Everything he did cost him a

810
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: lot of money and quite fatally, even if he has

811
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: money stashed away now currency has changed, I'll do anything

812
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 2: with it.

813
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: One million dollars.

814
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know the denominations the notes have all changed.

815
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 2: Now you walk into a bank with a whole lot

816
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: of those old notes, what's the first thing that's going

817
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: to happen.

818
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: It would be hard pressed someone trying to pass off

819
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: two dollars ten dollar notes, and.

820
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: It might as well burn it because it's worthless. So

821
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: to say, he's got a lot of money now.

822
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: And.

823
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: Did you recover his disguises or the fake passports and

824
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: different things? Did you find the stash of those.

825
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: When we raided Glen's house, we found a stash. I'm

826
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: pretty sure Queensland found a fair bit of gear too

827
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: to cover that. It's funny though, when it got to

828
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: that stage of who'd caught him, things kind of retracted

829
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 2: in that we start it's ours now. You can get

830
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 2: your you can get your hands on in ten years time,

831
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 2: but this is ours now. But if they wanted our help,

832
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: oh yeah, wee had to help.

833
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, that's that's the nature of the How

834
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: did you guys feel like collectively before you sort of

835
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: withdrew your thought that's the end of it. We've got him,

836
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: you get it through court. You know he's going to

837
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: get a lengthy sentence. Did you think that was the

838
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: last you'd be thinking or hearing of Brendan Abbott.

839
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: There was always something in the back of my mind

840
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: that maybe he'd have another crack again. But then when

841
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: I saw the security was under I thought, Jesus, you

842
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 2: know he's going to have to walk through walls to

843
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 2: get out of there. Well he almost did, didn't he?

844
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well tell us about that. How long he was

845
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: in before he escaped again?

846
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: I think from memory it was about two years, and

847
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: I had this stage gone back to TRG as a

848
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: uniform senior sergeant. I got promoted to senior sergeant and

849
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: I went to TRG.

850
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: Which is our tactical tactical teams.

851
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: And so I was working out of there and I

852
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: got a phone call and said, yeah, he's gotten out.

853
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: We need to look at your security. So they looked

854
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: at my security. I'd never been concerned by that because

855
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: I think, you know, coppers, anyone who's got any brains

856
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 2: is not going to go after a cropper because it's

857
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: just going to bring a lot of heat on you.

858
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: But you know, as a copper as adjective, you've always

859
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: been security conscious anyway, So I learned about that, and

860
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 2: then I knew that they had started another investigation here,

861
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: and it turns out Brendan had come across the WA

862
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: did a stick up on Mirror Booker Bank, and I

863
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: ended up running a team chasing what was a citing

864
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 2: around yanchat Way for him. But I think that's pretty

865
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: well got stayed out at WA apart from that one job.

866
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: How long was he on the run for the second time?

867
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: Six months? You know. Look, and they had the cooperation

868
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: was certainly better between states by the stage they'd gotten

869
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: their act together. The National Crime Authority existed now and

870
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: so that they were involved in as well well. And

871
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: you were getting sightings all around the country. I remember

872
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 2: I got asked to go into the because I was

873
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: one of the last croppers in WA to speak with him,

874
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: and they wanted me to listen to a phone call

875
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: they thought may have been him, and I did listen.

876
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: I went in there, listened to the phone call and

877
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: I think it was up in far North Queensland, and yeah,

878
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: it did sound like him, and I said, yeah, that

879
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: look that sounds like him. So yeah, so there I

880
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: was brought in on that. I think Northern Territory said no,

881
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: it wasn't him on that phone call. He was in

882
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: Northern Territory the whole time, which is fine. Interestingly, during

883
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: that period we got a information from I think over

884
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: East that Abbott has been seen boarding a plane coming

885
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: to w A and they were absolutely convinced it was him.

886
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: So we'd set up an operation to meet the plane

887
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: when it came here, and I was in TRG. But

888
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: I was also the last person actually had visual identification,

889
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: so we had people along the way saying yeah, it's

890
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: definitely definitely him, definitely him. We were sitting at the

891
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: base of the escalators on the other side of a

892
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: one way glass door. We had TORG teams everything they

893
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: were all gonna pounce on the sky coming down the escalator.

894
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: And of course, so I'm sitting there looking waiting for him,

895
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: and then they said that's him coming down the escalator.

896
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: I said, no, it's not, it's not him. It's definitely

897
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: not him. Didn't even look anything like him, and they

898
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: pounced on him and it wasn't him. But this is

899
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: the level people were operating. Now. We were seeing Brendan

900
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 2: Abbott everywhere.

901
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: Well that's what he's shown before, like escaping five years

902
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: on the run, robbed how many banks and cause the

903
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: chaosity did then he's back in and release again. I

904
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: know from my experience in the stick ups, armed hold

905
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: up squad. Christopher Bins. He went by the moniker of badness,

906
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: Christopher Badness Bins. He escaped from a Victorian prison, came

907
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: up to New South Wales, robbed a bank. We locked

908
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: him up for that, you know, a high high risk arrest.

909
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: Robbed the Commonwealth Bank at chats with I think it

910
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: was we put him away and charging with all the

911
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: offenses we're aware of. And he escaped from his escape

912
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: from Victoria. But then he was in prison here in Parramatta,

913
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,959
Speaker 1: then escaped again and I know the pressure that put

914
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: on everyone to find him before he was put away.

915
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, you've got these people that you can't break.

916
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 1: They're always looking for an opportunity to get out of prison,

917
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: aren't they.

918
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course they're always looking for the gaps

919
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: in our capabilities, you know. And that's how Brendan operated.

920
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 2: I mean, when it came for the second escape, did

921
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: work out what their gaps were in the security and

922
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: how he could take advantage that. And I think that

923
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 2: is the more interesting escape, is the second escape, because

924
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: he really, in my mind, really strategized so many things

925
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: would make life, take advantage of the gaps and make

926
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: life very hard or police to find him afterwards.

927
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more

928
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over

929
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can

930
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for

931
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start

932
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 1: watching today. And how the prison he escaped that second one,

933
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: I think in my research it's talked about he had

934
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 1: some stuff smuggle into the prison to cut through the bars.

935
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: What's a diamond string or what is it called a

936
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: diamond wire.

937
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: He was aventually let into the general prison or population,

938
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: which straight away it's the opportunity is to watch what's

939
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: going on and find the gaps. So he got diamond

940
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: wire smuggled in via an antenna of a radio transistor

941
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: radio to you sta Haven time. You know, they searched

942
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: obviously the radio, but no one thought that it put

943
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: diamond wire antenna. So he'd got that into the prison.

944
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: You just can't hold diamond wire and do that. You

945
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 2: had to work out and make a handle for it,

946
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: and I think got a handle off a bit of furniture,

947
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: and so he'd made a handle to slowly cut through

948
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 2: the bars of his self. But of course going by

949
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 2: himself makes him an easier target than that. She gets

950
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: four other guys to go with him. There was a

951
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: fellow in the prison of the guy by name of

952
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: Brendan Bereshon who befriended Abbott while he was in a

953
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 2: general population, and Bereshon was obviously in Abbott. With Brendan Abbott,

954
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 2: he had a celebrity status, which both worked for him

955
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: and against him. You know what prison's like cut down

956
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 2: the tall poppy as well. So he be Isshon was

957
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: due for parole and got parole and offered his services

958
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: to Abbot, And so there was a plan that when

959
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: the time was right, he would you know, obviously source

960
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: the diamond wire, that he would assist in the escape.

961
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: And so the plan came together. Brendan had cut through

962
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: his bars the diamond wire. They had gone down the line,

963
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: passed to other ones. Four other prisoners, two murderers and

964
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: I think two racists. So they were bad buggers and

965
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 2: they at all the same time had a plan that

966
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: Beverishon would be outside to assist him with bolt cutters

967
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 2: being thrown over to if there was any response armed

968
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 2: response from the armed response vehicle, he would in that

969
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: vehicle down using a rifle, which he did. And so

970
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: when the signal was given that it was all clear

971
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: to go, there were signals for either flashing lights or

972
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: dropping burning paper out to say it was a cell window,

973
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: to say it was a go. The operation their part started.

974
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 2: There were floors in the prison system because of lack

975
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: of staffing, because of changeovering and staffing so on. So

976
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 2: they were through the bars. They had joined a bunch

977
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: of plastic chairs together. So once they were out in

978
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: the first area, whether the first lot of wireors. These

979
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 2: plastic chairs were melded together and formed a bridge over

980
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: the first wire they reached. The bolt cutters got through

981
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: the second wire. When the response vehicle started tunneling up

982
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: an armored responsive vehicle, Barison started putting rounds into the

983
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 2: vehicle so that stops, so that stopped their ability to respond.

984
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 2: The meantime, the prisoners are making their way out and

985
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 2: gone embarrass and Abbott went off in their own direction.

986
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: The other four went off by themselves. Abbott was never

987
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: going to run with them because they knew he was

988
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 2: going to get them caught, and then started the next escape.

989
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 2: I think they lay low in the mangroves for quite

990
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: some time before they then got clothes and got on

991
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: their way, while the other four created mary hell around Queensland,

992
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 2: you know, doing what crooks who have been locked up

993
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: for a while, going to brothels, causing problems and pubs

994
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: and this type of thing, which then took the attention

995
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 2: or reduced the attention on Brendan Abbott. It was pretty smart.

996
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: How was he caught on the run for five months?

997
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: What five or six months? He was up in Northern

998
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: Territory in Darwin. He was caught coming out of a

999
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 2: laundromat right, and the cop has got a tip off

1000
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: and grabbed him out in the front of that chicky

1001
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: bugger at the end of it said can you finish

1002
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 2: by laundry for me? As he was loaded into the car.

1003
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: I don't like to give him respect, but there is

1004
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: something that you think you're going to rattle them with

1005
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 1: a shotgun pointed to the head and when they just

1006
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: throw back something like that, are you going to pick

1007
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: up my laundry?

1008
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's critical because that's then when the next stage started,

1009
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: the constant isolation solitary, you know, And that's when it

1010
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 2: became a political football, both in Queensland and wa WA

1011
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: for losing him the first time, and very much of

1012
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 2: political football. I think the Opposition used to shout out

1013
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 2: in Parliament where's Brendan Abbott? That blame was being politically

1014
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: heaped on the government of the day for not being

1015
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: able to keep him in. So what's going to happen.

1016
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: No politician is going to no attorney general or whatever

1017
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: it's going to say, I'll just put him in the

1018
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: main prison population. There's going to be in solitary for years.

1019
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: And is it true that he he's one of the

1020
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: longest serving prisoners for solitary confinement.

1021
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: I think so, I mean, I guess, but yeah, I don't. Yeh. Look,

1022
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, I think he did six years pretty well

1023
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: in solitary first up. And I once said, you know,

1024
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 2: try to spend twenty four hours by yourself.

1025
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough and inhumane. You know, they're put in

1026
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: there for a reason. And obviously there would have been

1027
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. And I know, quite rightly, corrective

1028
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: services don't take kindly when someone's escaped their custody, and

1029
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: the police don't like putting people before the courts having

1030
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: sentenced to prison. So there's a lot of people that

1031
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: he would have impacted on. And also, and we haven't

1032
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: spoken about it, but it's obvious and we'll just touch

1033
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: on it so people understand that we get it. It's

1034
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: not glorifying these crimes. That these crimes. You've worked in

1035
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: the arm toiled up squad. I've worked in the arm

1036
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: told up squad. We've spent a lot of time sitting

1037
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: down getting statements from victims that have been traumatized. When

1038
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: someone put it's a gun to their head has a

1039
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: lasting effect. Quite often people think well, there's no physical harm,

1040
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: but the psychological harm that it causes people that destroys

1041
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: some life. So we do understand that. Would you agree

1042
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: with that sentiment?

1043
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree, and Rennand's deserved everything he got as

1044
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 2: far as I mean a minimum term of imprisonment for

1045
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: an armed Robbie had been six years. He carried out

1046
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: a lot of armed robberies that a lot of people's

1047
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: lives were destroyed or traumatized, and so he deserved his sentences.

1048
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: I think the way the sentences were carried out were

1049
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 2: probably you know, prison authorities are always understaff there. It's

1050
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 2: not a vote winner for governments to maintain prisons at

1051
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 2: a high level. I mean, prisoners even today are left

1052
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 2: in solitary because there's not enough guards constantly. It's not

1053
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: something that wins votes. So there's two sides of that coin. Yes,

1054
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 2: he deserved to be in prison, he deserved to do

1055
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 2: the time probably what he got. It's a manner in

1056
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: which it's done, which I tend to have a bit

1057
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 2: of a conflict over it. I thought, to someone being

1058
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 2: in solitary, you know, either twenty four or twenty three

1059
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: hours a day, that's just cruel.

1060
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: It's inhumane when the impact it hasn't. People argue, well,

1061
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: they're in prison, but I've spoken to a lot of

1062
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 1: people have spent time in there, and when you break

1063
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: it down what's going through and what they're going through,

1064
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: there's a reason that there's restrictions on that type of treatment.

1065
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: Where is he at now, He's still in prison.

1066
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 2: He's a Casuarina prison in WA. He's actually been doing

1067
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 2: a lot of legal of his own legal work, and

1068
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:50,479
Speaker 2: I mean he's had a lot of time in his hands.

1069
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: He's no dummy.

1070
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: How long has he actually served up until this point.

1071
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 2: I think thirty three years all up.

1072
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: It's a long time.

1073
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: That's a long time. And look, I have said that

1074
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: murderers get less, but as is what rightly pointed out

1075
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 2: to me, most murderers commit their offense at thirty minutes

1076
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 2: of madness, whereas he was calculated, c needed money, conscious

1077
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 2: planned and did that. So again I think I don't

1078
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 2: have an issue with the sentence. So he's a Casuarina.

1079
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: He's fighting through the courts to have his releases sorted.

1080
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 2: He's just gone through a Supreme Court hearing. It's come

1081
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: back that he will serve his time, which I think

1082
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: takes him up to twenty thirty, but he also his

1083
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: parole date is now twenty twenty eight, so you know

1084
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 2: it's two little bit years away. Now after thirty three years,

1085
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 2: two years is probably waitable. He was originally going to

1086
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 2: be then extra guided to South Australia because they had

1087
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: a warrant in existence for his arrest over there that

1088
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 2: was a thirty five year old robbery. That warrant was

1089
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 2: stopping him from getting any rehabilitation maintaining his status in

1090
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 2: maximum security here because you then had to go on there.

1091
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: And I was asked to co sign a letter saying

1092
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 2: that the warrant should be washed because it's not in

1093
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 2: the public interest. And I think that we let too

1094
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 2: many prisoners on us out without any rehabilitation, and what

1095
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: do they do. The only thing they know is crime. Yes,

1096
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: he might commit crimes again, but he deserves to have

1097
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 2: some training of rehabilitation. So I, after a lot of

1098
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: thought and a lot of soul searching, I put my

1099
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 2: name to that the warrant was withdrawn by the Attorney

1100
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: General in that state. I don't think SID was very

1101
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 2: happy with me, and I can understand SID would not

1102
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: be happy, and some of my colleagues weren't either. But

1103
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's a case I've followed, and it's not

1104
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 2: because it's Brendan Abbott. It's because I do believe in

1105
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: in proper rehabilitation as well as incarceration. And yeah, so

1106
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 2: I signed it and that so he doesn't have to

1107
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 2: go to shout Australia. So after he's released here, that's

1108
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: the end of it.

1109
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: I respect you for that, Glenn. And it's hard because

1110
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: there's a police officer where often thought to look at

1111
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: things in black and white and yeah, well he's a

1112
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: bad guy where good guys, he should get the punishment.

1113
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: But I understand what you're saying, but I also understand

1114
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: that the costs that would Yeah, you've made an informed

1115
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 1: decision or a conscious decision on what's the right thing.

1116
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:44,479
Speaker 1: I not relating to Brendan's case, but other cases where

1117
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: someone's serving the custodial sentence in Queensland, knowing that the

1118
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: sinners they're released from Queensland, New South Wales is sitting

1119
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: there with a warrant and they're going to get another

1120
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: ten years. I don't see the benefit of that. If

1121
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: someone's in custody as well, have them all dealt with

1122
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 1: and say there's something something to aim for. Otherwise I

1123
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: see why people going, well, fuck this, I've got no

1124
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: chance of rehabilitation. Let me out, and I'm going to

1125
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: fall back into mild ways.

1126
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's all they know. And of course institutionalization

1127
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: in prisons, they everything laid on from where do you

1128
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: buy your toothpaste? How do you give a toothbrush? You know,

1129
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 2: shopping if you don't, And of course the world has

1130
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: changed in thirty odd years. You know it's going to

1131
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 2: be a shock to him. Fortunately he's got a family

1132
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 2: of son that wants to take him under his wing.

1133
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: But you know, there is a risk of letting people

1134
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 2: out like Brendan, There is a risk.

1135
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to speak and I'm sure you've got

1136
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: to speak with his son at that premiere and he

1137
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: presents as I met him for five minutes. He seems

1138
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: on the surface like a decent, decent young fellow that

1139
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: hasn't had had his father in his life. What I

1140
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: want to ask on the night because I had you

1141
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 1: both on stage and I just didn't want to ask

1142
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: the question where you don't know the answer to, what's

1143
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: your relationship like with Brendan's son. When you're caught up

1144
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: in matters like.

1145
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 2: That, look, it's a little bit awkward. Yeah, it is

1146
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: a little bit awkward. But having said that, he seems

1147
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: like a stand up young fella. I don't know him

1148
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 2: that well. I think it's awkward for both of us.

1149
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm part of the reason why he hasn't had a father,

1150
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 2: and as he said on stage, if we caught him earlier,

1151
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have been born. And he's got a sense

1152
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 2: of human swings a roundabout. But yeah, and I have

1153
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 2: often said I'm not any of their friends. I respect

1154
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 2: their privacy, their lives. I respect prisoners after their release

1155
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: they've done their time, and I would respect that his

1156
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 2: son has. James has a good relationship with his father,

1157
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 2: and good on him. Luck to him. It's funny. After that.

1158
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 2: The next night after that premiere, I was having a

1159
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 2: few drinks with the cast and James turned up and

1160
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 2: I'm sitting and talked to one of the members cast

1161
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: and he passes me a phone. Hello. He said, I thought,

1162
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: I know who this is. There's Brendan. And that was

1163
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 2: an awkward conversation because you know, I said, you know

1164
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: who I am? He said, yeah, I said, well, let's

1165
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: give it up. Let's let's get this out of the

1166
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 2: way straight up. Look, there's no real will on my part.

1167
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: I hope life goes really well for you. I hope

1168
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 2: you get out when you get out, and have a

1169
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 2: great life and a great relationship. Yeah, this is really awkward.

1170
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 2: But he laughed about it. He was good about it.

1171
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: You gotta laughs. Yeah, yeah, awkward, But what are you

1172
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: to do? And that's just a sort of surreal situation

1173
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: that you found found yourself in. That's it's bizarre.

1174
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 2: But hold on that point. Sorry. I just looked up

1175
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 2: at when I was on the phone, looked up. There's

1176
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 2: about four different camera phones on me.

1177
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: Oh this could yeah, yeah, you don't want that on

1178
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,920
Speaker 1: the on the front page. We might, we might take

1179
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: a break here. I just wanted to cover off on

1180
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: Brendan's case and your involvement because I find that fascinating.

1181
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: And we haven't finished with you yet, because when we

1182
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: get back, you've got a lot more stories. I don't know.

1183
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 1: I think it's something about Western Australian types. There's always

1184
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: always some stories.

1185
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 2: One who was wait a while here.

1186
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about the murder of

1187
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: what or suspected murder of Wayne Drill, which is a

1188
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 1: fascinating case. Your time as a negotiator and different things,

1189
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: and how you how you got your injuries. That's just

1190
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: for starters and perhaps for our question. Is there one

1191
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: that's got away, that one case that you think of

1192
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: that you know, you wish you could have could have resolved.

1193
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: But over all that in part.

1194
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 2: Two excellent mate. Look and I'm glad you touched on

1195
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 2: the one that got away because that is a that

1196
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 2: is a story.

1197
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:19,440
Speaker 3: And okay, look forward to it.

1198
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 2: H