1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,780 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,930 --> 00:00:09,659 Sean Aylmer: The last couple of decades have seen enormous change in the 3 00:00:09,660 --> 00:00:11,969 Sean Aylmer: media landscape. I saw it close up, having spent a 4 00:00:11,969 --> 00:00:15,329 Sean Aylmer: long time working at what was then Fairfax, the arrival 5 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:17,729 Sean Aylmer: of the digital giants, the rise of social media, the 6 00:00:17,730 --> 00:00:21,270 Sean Aylmer: shifts in media consumption, and the pressure on advertising and 7 00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:24,450 Sean Aylmer: the changes just keep on coming. I'm joined today by 8 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:26,999 Sean Aylmer: our guest who knows all of this very, very well. 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,030 Sean Aylmer: Michael Miller is the Executive Chair of News Corp Australia, 10 00:00:30,030 --> 00:00:33,659 Sean Aylmer: which owns publications including The Australian, The Daily Telegraph Herald Sun, 11 00:00:33,659 --> 00:00:37,290 Sean Aylmer: Courier Mail, Adelaide Advertiser, et cetera. Of course, the company's 12 00:00:37,290 --> 00:00:42,958 Sean Aylmer: interests go beyond newspapers. Affiliated businesses include REA, Foxtel, Fox Sports, HarperCollins, 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,520 Sean Aylmer: Sky News. The company reaches about 15 million Australians each month. 14 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:51,659 Sean Aylmer: News Corp is also the platinum partner of Mumbrella360, Australia's 15 00:00:51,659 --> 00:00:54,870 Sean Aylmer: largest media and marketing conference, which is on this week 16 00:00:54,870 --> 00:00:57,060 Sean Aylmer: in Sydney. Michael Miller, welcome to Fear & Greed. 17 00:00:57,540 --> 00:00:58,561 Michael Miller: Hi Sean. Good to hear from you. 18 00:00:58,561 --> 00:01:02,880 Sean Aylmer: So, how do you run a media company when the pace of change 19 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:06,899 Sean Aylmer: is so ferocious and relentless? How do you keep up? 20 00:01:07,709 --> 00:01:11,999 Michael Miller: The technology available now is definitely an aid. Some may 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,590 Michael Miller: say it is ever prevalent in our lives, but it 22 00:01:16,590 --> 00:01:20,190 Michael Miller: definitely helps run the business. Media companies have always put 23 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:25,020 Michael Miller: their audiences first, their customers, their communities. And the amount 24 00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:28,350 Michael Miller: of data we have now is instantaneous. We can see 25 00:01:28,889 --> 00:01:32,069 Michael Miller: who is reading what, where, how they're engaging what they 26 00:01:32,069 --> 00:01:34,260 Michael Miller: read prior, what they read next, and it gives you 27 00:01:34,260 --> 00:01:36,540 Michael Miller: a lot of insights into not just what is trending, 28 00:01:36,540 --> 00:01:40,589 Michael Miller: but what is not just driving subscribers, but driving audiences 29 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:43,469 Michael Miller: across our newsletters, our videos. So it starts off with 30 00:01:43,469 --> 00:01:46,589 Michael Miller: the data, but I also apply the old techniques of 31 00:01:47,340 --> 00:01:51,450 Michael Miller: nuance and calling people. I'm a constant phone caller, whether 32 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:53,520 Michael Miller: it be in the car or early in the morning, 33 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:56,520 Michael Miller: I take the calls and I make the calls. Because 34 00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:58,889 Michael Miller: it's often important to triage what you're seeing in the 35 00:01:58,889 --> 00:02:02,009 Michael Miller: data with the insights that people are seeing on the 36 00:02:02,009 --> 00:02:05,490 Michael Miller: ground. So there's nothing like a good contact together with 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,919 Michael Miller: what the macro technology is telling us. 38 00:02:08,430 --> 00:02:11,280 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's talk about social media and how it 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,590 Sean Aylmer: interplays with journalism. And I suppose it's distribution versus journalism. Pre- 40 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:20,730 Sean Aylmer: social media, the content providers were also the distributors. That's 41 00:02:20,730 --> 00:02:25,290 Sean Aylmer: changed with social media. Is the balance right yet, the 42 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:28,560 Sean Aylmer: balance between what social media gets access to, in terms 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,950 Sean Aylmer: of The Daily Tele or The Australian and how they 44 00:02:31,950 --> 00:02:36,030 Sean Aylmer: distribute it and what you receive in compensation effectively? 45 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,169 Michael Miller: Yeah, it's a issue that is now live in so 46 00:02:40,169 --> 00:02:44,280 Michael Miller: many parts of the world. We saw the Canadian government 47 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,060 Michael Miller: make decisions in the past month regarding the media companies 48 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:50,759 Michael Miller: there being fairly remunerated. A lot of people have compared 49 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,390 Michael Miller: that to the Australian laws, which were introduced two years ago, 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,399 Michael Miller: and that there are differences between the two. It's a 51 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:03,240 Michael Miller: must negotiate in Canada. In Australia, they haven't moved to 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,740 Michael Miller: a designation per se. But to your question around distribution, 53 00:03:08,130 --> 00:03:12,090 Michael Miller: journalism needs to be discovered to grow its audience, and 54 00:03:12,090 --> 00:03:16,078 Michael Miller: that we have in Australia dominant players in search, being Google, 55 00:03:16,139 --> 00:03:22,230 Michael Miller: and in social being Meta. And we are dependent upon 56 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:24,930 Michael Miller: those particular channels to have our journalism discovered to reach 57 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:31,019 Michael Miller: audiences to ensure that they equally pay and fairly for 58 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:33,749 Michael Miller: the investment that we make in not just journalism, but 59 00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:37,530 Michael Miller: in supporting communities and giving those without a voice a voice, 60 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:41,130 Michael Miller: holding those to account, but also celebrating giving solutions in 61 00:03:41,130 --> 00:03:48,330 Michael Miller: tougher times. So, is it fairly balanced? The algorithms I'd 62 00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:50,670 Michael Miller: love to know more about, but that's something which we're 63 00:03:50,670 --> 00:03:54,119 Michael Miller: unable to lift the lid on. And that in some 64 00:03:54,119 --> 00:03:57,870 Michael Miller: ways we're seeing those platforms also develop competing products. Ever 65 00:03:57,870 --> 00:04:00,540 Michael Miller: since the law has changed in Australia, it is now 66 00:04:00,540 --> 00:04:04,079 Michael Miller: a fairer playing field. They are now partners in ensuring 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,009 Michael Miller: journalism is discovered and that the journalism would show is 68 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:13,380 Michael Miller: important to their audiences is being recognised and remunerated for. 69 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:16,409 Michael Miller: More can always be done, but we're in a far 70 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:18,450 Michael Miller: better place than we were maybe four or five years ago. 71 00:04:19,350 --> 00:04:24,149 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So do you think that the media organisations themselves, News Australia, 72 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:28,318 Sean Aylmer: for example, the Nine Network and all its affiliations have 73 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,880 Sean Aylmer: done enough to be discoverable to find a younger audience 74 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,170 Sean Aylmer: to use those distribution means to grow their audience? 75 00:04:37,860 --> 00:04:40,050 Michael Miller: Again, you'd always do more, but I think we've learned 76 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:42,839 Michael Miller: that communicating on our own channels is only part of 77 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,330 Michael Miller: the story. The majority, 72% of our audience now is 78 00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:50,190 Michael Miller: off platform. Recently you're seeing Threads launch. All of our a 79 00:04:50,190 --> 00:04:54,660 Michael Miller: hundred plus brands were on Threads within 12 hours and 80 00:04:54,660 --> 00:04:58,500 Michael Miller: very active in those first three or four days in 81 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:03,119 Michael Miller: terms of communicating and galvanising to those audiences. News.com.au was 82 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,849 Michael Miller: one of the first to really embrace TikTok when others 83 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:08,789 Michael Miller: were questioning it. Vogue, which we had the franchise off 84 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:13,260 Michael Miller: in Australia, has a very large social media following on TikTok, 85 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:18,118 Michael Miller: on Insta and on Snap. And so it's those off platforms you 86 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,539 Michael Miller: need to work closely with and understand how you may 87 00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:25,620 Michael Miller: re-edit and repurpose and curate differently for those audiences a 88 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:30,029 Michael Miller: similar story. And in terms of appealing to those younger audiences, 89 00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:33,539 Michael Miller: I look pretty closely at the story is right, it 90 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:37,080 Michael Miller: may be curated differently, but you need to purpose it 91 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,820 Michael Miller: for the platform you're going to distribute it on. 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,339 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Michael, we'll be back in a minute. 93 00:05:47,069 --> 00:05:50,099 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Michael Miller, Executive Chair of News Corp 94 00:05:50,099 --> 00:05:54,210 Sean Aylmer: Australia. Okay, now I'd imagine news, and let's take The 95 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:56,638 Sean Aylmer: Daily Telegraph would have a far bigger audience than it 96 00:05:56,639 --> 00:06:00,900 Sean Aylmer: ever has, certainly compared to newspaper days, I would presume 97 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:02,070 Sean Aylmer: that's correct, Michael. 98 00:06:02,130 --> 00:06:02,490 Michael Miller: You're correct. 99 00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:06,000 Sean Aylmer: The economics, though, of the big media organisations is where 100 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,029 Sean Aylmer: it's tough because certainly more people are looking at your content, 101 00:06:09,029 --> 00:06:13,169 Sean Aylmer: viewing it, reading it however, than ever before. Are the 102 00:06:13,170 --> 00:06:17,488 Sean Aylmer: big news organisations in a place where the economics, you 103 00:06:17,490 --> 00:06:19,890 Sean Aylmer: said it's better than it was, is it sustainable for 104 00:06:19,890 --> 00:06:20,430 Sean Aylmer: the long-term? 105 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,640 Michael Miller: Yep. So one of the metrics I use is do 106 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,589 Michael Miller: we have a growing audience? And while you may have 107 00:06:25,589 --> 00:06:29,159 Michael Miller: your knockers and your detractors and activist groups and others 108 00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:32,790 Michael Miller: wanting to disrupt, and you'd see that a lot of 109 00:06:33,029 --> 00:06:36,000 Michael Miller: specialist players come in, you've mentioned the audience figure there, 110 00:06:36,570 --> 00:06:39,420 Michael Miller: we reach over half of Australians every month and that's growing. 111 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:42,060 Michael Miller: And so that's ultimately, are we meeting the needs of 112 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:45,690 Michael Miller: our audiences? Yes. I think what is available now to 113 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:48,570 Michael Miller: publishers are far more revenue streams than just a cover 114 00:06:48,570 --> 00:06:51,450 Michael Miller: price and an advertising stream. And in fact, I call 115 00:06:51,450 --> 00:06:54,509 Michael Miller: it a client category, not an advertising category. And so, 116 00:06:55,170 --> 00:06:58,740 Michael Miller: many organisations, and we're not quite there yet, but publishing 117 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:03,000 Michael Miller: organisations are 50-50 consumer to client revenue. We're heading in 118 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,590 Michael Miller: that direction. We'll be there in a few years time. 119 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:08,820 Michael Miller: That's really been aided by people's propensity to pay for 120 00:07:08,820 --> 00:07:12,840 Michael Miller: streaming of content, that ability to subscribe to not just 121 00:07:12,869 --> 00:07:16,350 Michael Miller: media companies now, but to your local supermarket and other 122 00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:19,650 Michael Miller: regularly purchased items. And so people are prepared to pay 123 00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:22,530 Michael Miller: and subscribe, and that has definitely helped the news media industry. 124 00:07:22,889 --> 00:07:26,700 Michael Miller: And last year we reached a million paid digital subscribers, 125 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:30,419 Michael Miller: and that is the one of a dozen publishers as well that have met 126 00:07:30,420 --> 00:07:32,880 Michael Miller: that market, but the highest per capita in the world. 127 00:07:32,940 --> 00:07:36,750 Michael Miller: And that's been an area of, I suppose, paying for that journalism. 128 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:39,150 Michael Miller: The other area in terms of client is that our 129 00:07:39,150 --> 00:07:41,700 Michael Miller: clients are not just paying for advertising, they're paying for data, 130 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,990 Michael Miller: particularly with the closure of cookies, the having first party data, 131 00:07:45,990 --> 00:07:48,480 Michael Miller: which a lot of publishers have. Every company now has 132 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,600 Michael Miller: an investment in their own content, but they don't always 133 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,730 Michael Miller: do it well. So agencies that we own, such as 134 00:07:53,730 --> 00:07:58,500 Michael Miller: Medium Rare (Medium Rare Content Agency) and SUDDENLY, Visual Domain and video, often producing content 135 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:02,070 Michael Miller: on behalf of Qantas, of David Jones, of Coles amongst 136 00:08:02,070 --> 00:08:05,849 Michael Miller: many others. Ecommerce is an area that we've been big 137 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:09,690 Michael Miller: participants in recent days on Prime Day, affiliate revenues. So 138 00:08:09,690 --> 00:08:12,210 Michael Miller: you've got a lot more levers to pull if you've 139 00:08:12,210 --> 00:08:14,730 Michael Miller: got an audience to reach, which we do. And so 140 00:08:14,730 --> 00:08:18,899 Michael Miller: the economics, while still emerging, are looking very positive in 141 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:22,500 Michael Miller: terms of how we can assist Australian businesses reach their 142 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:27,060 Michael Miller: business goals, but also ensure Australians are consuming quality and 143 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:27,690 Michael Miller: trusted content. 144 00:08:29,310 --> 00:08:31,590 Sean Aylmer: I have to, my background, as you know Michael is 145 00:08:31,590 --> 00:08:35,730 Sean Aylmer: in journalism. I have to ask how important is journalism 146 00:08:36,270 --> 00:08:38,309 Sean Aylmer: in it all? And now I keep thinking of someone 147 00:08:38,309 --> 00:08:40,169 Sean Aylmer: like Hedley Thomas, who obviously is part of the news 148 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:43,260 Sean Aylmer: stable at The Australian, an incredible job at The Teacher's 149 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:47,520 Sean Aylmer: Pet Podcast. He's done video, he's writing, kind of a 150 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,828 Sean Aylmer: jack of all trades in a sense. At the heart 151 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:52,439 Sean Aylmer: of that, though, was just a great story. Is that 152 00:08:53,070 --> 00:08:54,900 Sean Aylmer: something we're going to continue to see? 153 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:58,769 Michael Miller: One of the levers that we've pulled over the past 154 00:08:58,770 --> 00:09:01,440 Michael Miller: five years is doubling down on purpose. And that has 155 00:09:01,469 --> 00:09:07,770 Michael Miller: been a differentiator to other media companies and digital publishers 156 00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:12,000 Michael Miller: that are very focused on revenue models rather than giving back 157 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,790 Michael Miller: to the communities that ultimately consume them. So whether it 158 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:18,269 Michael Miller: be the Grace Tame story that's told by news.com.au and 159 00:09:18,270 --> 00:09:23,580 Michael Miller: the The Mercury couldn't cover her story, but #LetHerSpeak was 160 00:09:23,580 --> 00:09:27,059 Michael Miller: really important in terms of changing laws in that state. Yeah, Hedley, 161 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:32,549 Michael Miller: through his podcast, what has been a “no body, no parole” law that's 162 00:09:32,549 --> 00:09:36,989 Michael Miller: been introduced in New South Wales parliament is critical to 163 00:09:37,230 --> 00:09:41,190 Michael Miller: ensuring that families of victims now have an avenue to 164 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:44,819 Michael Miller: pursue the truth. And so I think that's a point 165 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:48,239 Michael Miller: of difference for local media companies that focus on local stories. 166 00:09:48,599 --> 00:09:51,840 Michael Miller: And that doesn't always pay, it costs a lot, but 167 00:09:51,929 --> 00:09:55,740 Michael Miller: it's that giving back and making a difference, pushing those boundaries, 168 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,740 Michael Miller: which ultimately I think is what your reputation is based on. 169 00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:01,860 Michael Miller: People buy your brand for your reputation and the positive 170 00:10:01,860 --> 00:10:06,270 Michael Miller: impact that you have on many. So it is more important 171 00:10:06,270 --> 00:10:09,630 Michael Miller: I think than ever. It's always been important, but it's 172 00:10:09,630 --> 00:10:10,709 Michael Miller: our point of difference. 173 00:10:11,070 --> 00:10:14,910 Sean Aylmer: My final question to you, Michael. News (News Corp Australia) has certainly, as has 174 00:10:14,910 --> 00:10:17,910 Sean Aylmer: the ABC, as has the old Fairfax, kind of been 175 00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:22,050 Sean Aylmer: considered a genre of journalism in terms of where they 176 00:10:22,050 --> 00:10:25,770 Sean Aylmer: sit in the political spectrum. So that's the base case. 177 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:29,069 Sean Aylmer: What's the future look like, though, for these organisations and 178 00:10:29,070 --> 00:10:33,540 Sean Aylmer: specifically for News as the world changes? Do you think 179 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:36,120 Sean Aylmer: media companies are as political as readers and viewers think 180 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,130 Sean Aylmer: they are, the first part of it? And do they 181 00:10:38,130 --> 00:10:39,360 Sean Aylmer: morph over time? 182 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:43,469 Michael Miller: I don't know that our audiences see us as being 183 00:10:43,469 --> 00:10:49,199 Michael Miller: as political as both media commentators and political commentators like 184 00:10:49,199 --> 00:10:53,460 Michael Miller: to amplify. All those three companies you mentioned are essentially 185 00:10:53,790 --> 00:10:58,289 Michael Miller: mass market, reach very broad spectrums through our various brands 186 00:10:58,290 --> 00:11:01,650 Michael Miller: of the Australian population and are successful due to the 187 00:11:01,650 --> 00:11:04,379 Michael Miller: portfolios we run, whether it be Triple J at one 188 00:11:04,379 --> 00:11:07,530 Michael Miller: extreme at the ABC, and news.com.au or Vogue at one 189 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:12,420 Michael Miller: extreme for News to The Australian to 7:30 (The 7.30 Report) to 190 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:15,269 Michael Miller: Media Watch. And so I don't think it's a bad thing 191 00:11:15,270 --> 00:11:18,780 Michael Miller: that on any particular day you've got a small handful 192 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:21,779 Michael Miller: of people at the ABC questioning News and a small 193 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:25,110 Michael Miller: handful at News questioning the ABC. But in the majority, I 194 00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:29,010 Michael Miller: think both organisations are doing a good job at serving 195 00:11:29,340 --> 00:11:32,760 Michael Miller: their broader constituents. What we have seen around the world 196 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:37,050 Michael Miller: is more niche players emerge. They don't have big audiences, 197 00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:42,840 Michael Miller: but are positioning themselves as being alternatives to the mass 198 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:46,980 Michael Miller: broadcasters and mass trusted media. And I think that's where 199 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,059 Michael Miller: the debate has kind of been amplified in recent years. Now, 200 00:11:51,059 --> 00:11:53,759 Michael Miller: I won't name them, but those smaller publishers that are 201 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:59,280 Michael Miller: trying to carve a niche through positioning their bigger competitors 202 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:03,358 Michael Miller: against themselves. So I understand their business model, I don't 203 00:12:03,630 --> 00:12:07,980 Michael Miller: particularly get enamoured by it, but it's good that Australians 204 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:08,610 Michael Miller: have choice. 205 00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:10,828 Sean Aylmer: Michael, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 206 00:12:11,250 --> 00:12:12,030 Michael Miller: Great to catch up, Sean. 207 00:12:12,630 --> 00:12:15,689 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Miller, Executive Chair of News Corp Australia. 208 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:18,208 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear & Greed Business Interview. Join us every 209 00:12:18,208 --> 00:12:20,699 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear & Greed, Australia's best 210 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,699 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.