WEBVTT - Spotify and the AI arms race

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Recently,

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<v Speaker 1>the founder of Spotify, Daniel Eck, announced his stepping back

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<v Speaker 1>from running the company. He leaves us one of the

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<v Speaker 1>richest men in his home country of Sweden, with Forbes

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<v Speaker 1>estimating his wealth at nine point six billion dollars. In

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<v Speaker 1>a departure note, the staff, Xody wants to focus on

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<v Speaker 1>creating more Europeans supercompanies, companies he's described as developing new

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<v Speaker 1>technologies to tackle some of the biggest challenges of our time.

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<v Speaker 1>The move comes months after x involvement in the global

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<v Speaker 1>defense industry was revealed, facing an artist backlash, with some

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<v Speaker 1>pulling their music from the platform. Today, we're bringing you

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<v Speaker 1>an episode we recorded back in July which exposes x

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<v Speaker 1>investments in AI based military technology and Spotify's embrace of

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<v Speaker 1>AI in music, which with author and journalist Liz Paley.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Sundai October twelve. Liz, thanks for speaking with me.

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify is fan that Daniel Lick has just invested. I

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<v Speaker 1>have a one billion Australian dollars into an IR military company.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been tracking Spotify and Daniel k fiyis, so can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell me about X history when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>investments like these.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, Daniel X first invested in this company called Helsing,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a AI military tech company, in twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 2>but not only invested in it, he also co authored

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<v Speaker 2>an op ed for Politico where he was advocating for

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<v Speaker 2>increased investment into AI military technology. This latest tabline, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it was really interesting to me because not

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<v Speaker 2>only of the dollar amount that was attached to it,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, they also announced that he'd become the

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<v Speaker 2>chairman of the board of this company, And Daniel Eck

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<v Speaker 2>and Spotify have really become embedded in the defense industry.

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<v Speaker 2>In addition to Eck. Also last year, Spotify announced that

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<v Speaker 2>their new CFO was someone who had previously worked at SOB,

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<v Speaker 2>which is another Swedish defense company. So you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>there's some deeper ties between Spotify and the military industrial complex,

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<v Speaker 2>even beyond just Daniel Eck.

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel k has become very rich off the back of

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify's a brilliant name many times, Iva, can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>me about his rise and what he first visached for

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<v Speaker 1>the platform.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, Daniel X's background before Spotify was in the

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<v Speaker 2>advertising industry. In two thousand and six. He started this

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<v Speaker 2>company with Martin Lawrenson, who also had a background in

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<v Speaker 2>the advertising industry too, and their original idea was for

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<v Speaker 2>a company that would pair advertising revenue with free streaming media.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't even necessarily one hundred percent clear that this

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<v Speaker 2>was solely going to be a music company.

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<v Speaker 1>I do think that, Like, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, over the years, it seems like there have been

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<v Speaker 2>attempts to kind of rebrand the co founders of Spotify

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<v Speaker 2>as music guys. You know, if you look back, you

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<v Speaker 2>can find press photos of Danie lackholding and guitar. There

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<v Speaker 2>also was an attempts to sort of shape this narrative

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, Spotify's goal was to save the music industry.

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<v Speaker 3>So early on, like nineteen ninety nine and naps Are

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<v Speaker 3>changed pretty much the whole world for me. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>it's the internet service that changed my life the most,

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<v Speaker 3>I would say it. But the enfortunate part was obviously

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<v Speaker 3>they didn't pay artists. So really at that point when

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<v Speaker 3>naps Are shut down, I started thinking about how can

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<v Speaker 3>you make it better?

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<v Speaker 2>And and you know, Spotify was leveling the playing fields

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<v Speaker 2>for independent musicians or contributing to democratizing music and culture.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, these creators are really spectacular individual people who

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<v Speaker 3>want to connect, want to grow, and we want to

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<v Speaker 3>create that platform for them where they can thrive.

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<v Speaker 2>And those are kind of like buzzwords that we heard

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<v Speaker 2>associated with a lot of tech companies and platforms in

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<v Speaker 2>the mid twenty tens. But it was important to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like interrogate those those ideas a little bit and

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<v Speaker 2>look into like, you know, okay, what's actually behind this company,

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<v Speaker 2>who's behind it, who serves to benefit from the rise

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<v Speaker 2>of streaming.

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<v Speaker 1>We live in an age of streaming services. Headed Spotify

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<v Speaker 1>become the biggest music streaming service in the world, Can

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<v Speaker 1>you talk me through the business decisions that led to

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<v Speaker 1>that happening.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a good question, because you know, they weren't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily the first. But one of the things that is

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<v Speaker 2>unique about Spotify is a rise of the Spotify playlist.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a cultural phenomenon and the strategic thinking that informed

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<v Speaker 2>the prioritization of a playlist as a way of growing

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<v Speaker 2>their subscriber base. Twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen was this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of time where the Spotify playlist playlists made by

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<v Speaker 2>in house editors, had this really kind of unique cultural

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<v Speaker 2>wait over how people discovered music, and just in the

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<v Speaker 2>music industry was considered like a really important part of

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<v Speaker 2>the promotion process for a new record, for example. So

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<v Speaker 2>artists were being convinced that these editorial playlists were going

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<v Speaker 2>to be an important part of how they connected with

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<v Speaker 2>and sort of gained new fans in some ways. Around

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, you started to see headlines in

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<v Speaker 2>the music business press claiming that Spotify was filling its

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<v Speaker 2>playlists with music by artists who didn't exist, with fake

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<v Speaker 2>artists in order to pay out fewer royalties. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the public had been calling me as fake artists. There

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<v Speaker 2>actually was an internal term at Spotify perfect fit content,

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<v Speaker 2>which is this phrase that they used to describe music

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<v Speaker 2>commissions to fit certain moods and playlists with improved margins.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's clearly it costs saving initiative in order to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of squeeze value in some ways out of listeners

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<v Speaker 2>but also musicians. There are so many different ways in

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<v Speaker 2>which processes of algorithmic recommendation and automated decision making have

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<v Speaker 2>shaped not just the sound of music, not just the

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<v Speaker 2>type of music, not just the reality of generative AI

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<v Speaker 2>music on these platforms, but shapes the way people think

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<v Speaker 2>about meaning in music and the way music is contextualized

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<v Speaker 2>and recommended. Spotify and other streaming services allow generative AI

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<v Speaker 2>content onto their platforms, and the generative AI question, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>only continues to be more urgent, and it says a

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<v Speaker 2>lot I think about the reality that you know, not

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<v Speaker 2>just Daniel Eck, but a lot of people who end

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<v Speaker 2>up in positions of power in the music industry, like

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<v Speaker 2>aren't super interested in music. They're interested in growing their wealth.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, definitely not music, guys, after.

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<v Speaker 1>The break, your favorite middle of the road old country

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<v Speaker 1>band and even real least we know Spotify uses AI

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<v Speaker 1>to keep you listening on their platform, So what do

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<v Speaker 1>we know about their plans for using generative II further?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's hard to like speculate about what they

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<v Speaker 2>might do when it comes to generative AM music on

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<v Speaker 2>the platform. But you know, what we do know is

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<v Speaker 2>that there's like tens of thousands of generative AI tracks

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<v Speaker 2>being uploaded to streaming services every day, and there's been this,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, story of this viral generative AI band called

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<v Speaker 2>the Velvet Sundown.

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<v Speaker 4>If you've been on Spotify recently, you might have seen

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<v Speaker 4>a band called The Velvet Sundown on your feed now.

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<v Speaker 4>At first glance, it seems like any other indie rock group,

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<v Speaker 4>but none of their members actually exist. The Velvet Sundown

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<v Speaker 4>has now amassed almost one million monthly listeners, with songs

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<v Speaker 4>including Dust on the Wind and End the Pain among

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<v Speaker 4>their top hits. Take a listen those.

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<v Speaker 2>Us from you know. One of the big threats of

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<v Speaker 2>generative AI material is the way in which it could

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<v Speaker 2>potentially undercut the creative labor of artists and users should

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<v Speaker 2>be able to make informed decisions about what they're listening to.

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<v Speaker 2>And you could say, well, you know, people should listen

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<v Speaker 2>more closely or do their own research. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>that if the technology is there to label this material,

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<v Speaker 2>it should be it should be labeled because there are

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<v Speaker 2>so many different concerns that people in the artist community

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<v Speaker 2>have about generative AI, about their music as being users,

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<v Speaker 2>training data, how it will be credited, how they'll be compensated,

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<v Speaker 2>how compensation might be driven down by the existence of

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<v Speaker 2>generative AI music on these streaming platforms.

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<v Speaker 5>More than a thousand musicians are releasing a silent album

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<v Speaker 5>to campaign against the British government's plans to change copyright

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<v Speaker 5>laws which could allow tech funds to train artificial intelligence

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<v Speaker 5>models using real performers.

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<v Speaker 4>Voices.

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<v Speaker 5>Artists including Annie Lennox, Kate Bush, and Andrew Lloyd Webber

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<v Speaker 5>back the campaign. They say the changes would reverse.

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<v Speaker 2>The right now. What we're seeing is a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the discourse that has sort of played out around generative

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<v Speaker 2>AI music has been around deep figs.

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<v Speaker 6>At first, it's quite convincing. Creator Ghostwriter nine seven seven

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<v Speaker 6>claims the song is AI generated, artificial or not. It

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<v Speaker 6>quickly generated real numbers over six hundred thousand streams on

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<v Speaker 6>Spotify before Drake's label had it pulled.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's important. It's important that you know if someone's

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<v Speaker 2>likeness is being used, that they have the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>get that work removed. But in reality, like the types

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<v Speaker 2>of artists that are going to have the legal muscle

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<v Speaker 2>to actually be able to do anything about that are

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<v Speaker 2>pop stars, people who have really big legal teams behind them.

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<v Speaker 2>There's also all sorts of ways in which generative AI

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<v Speaker 2>undercuts the labor of indie artists and DIY artists and

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<v Speaker 2>smaller artists who might not have the same name recognition

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<v Speaker 2>or legal team behind them to be able to take

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<v Speaker 2>action against situations like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry for the myriad of reasons, many of which we've

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<v Speaker 1>touched upon. People have deactivided this Spotify accounts honest to

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<v Speaker 1>remove their music from Spotify, but the lightest Ioli military

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<v Speaker 1>investment was the last straw for many people. What does

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<v Speaker 1>that tell you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I think that because the economic model

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<v Speaker 2>is the same across the board for most streaming services,

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<v Speaker 2>I think people are going to start looking into these

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<v Speaker 2>other things like, well, does this streaming service have ties

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<v Speaker 2>to the military industrial complex? Does the streaming service use

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<v Speaker 2>generative AI music and not label it. I'm not someone

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<v Speaker 2>who is really in the business of like putting the

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<v Speaker 2>streaming services side by side and saying, well, this one

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<v Speaker 2>pays a few penny fractions more than this one, so like,

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<v Speaker 2>so you should be subscribing here was there? Like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't really like playing the role of consumer guys, because

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<v Speaker 2>the vast majority of streaming services operate under the same

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<v Speaker 2>proada model that is really I think an unfair model.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that a better way of doing streaming economics

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<v Speaker 2>would be something called user centric, which is basically like

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<v Speaker 2>I pay ten dollars to a streaming service, they take

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<v Speaker 2>their thirty percent cut the remaining money goes to the

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<v Speaker 2>artists I stream.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally is what would you say to people who

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<v Speaker 1>are stocking the convenience of using Spotify or rather streaming services?

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<v Speaker 1>How did I break free?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if as a music fan, you are concerned with

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<v Speaker 2>making sure that the money that you spend on music

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't accidentally end up in the military industrial complex, doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>accidentally end up going to a generative AI band, your

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<v Speaker 2>best bet would be buying music directly from from the artists,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's through band camp or through their website, or

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<v Speaker 2>through their record label, or through supporting an independent record store.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, the combination of buying music directly plus listening to

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<v Speaker 2>independent community radio, for me is kind of like a

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<v Speaker 2>winning combination. Like, I understand that music is vast. People

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<v Speaker 2>listen to music for different reasons, and people engage with

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<v Speaker 2>music for different reasons. So I don't expect every single

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<v Speaker 2>person who really cares about music to start building an

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<v Speaker 2>MP three library again and to buy an FM radio,

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<v Speaker 2>even though those are the things that I would totally.

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<v Speaker 1>Suggest me too.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think though, that like that's kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>our best bet in this moment, remembering that, uh, it's

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<v Speaker 2>never been super convenient to be a fan of independent music,

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<v Speaker 2>and that you know, being our participant in independent music

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<v Speaker 2>culture like does require a little bit of friction.

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<v Speaker 1>In many ways, it's the inconvenience that Mike's are cool. Lise,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks so much for speaking with us.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Liz Pelly's book is called Mood Machine, The Rise of

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<v Speaker 1>Spotif and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>listening to this episode. At seven am tomorrow, I'm speaking

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<v Speaker 1>with Walkley Award winning journalist Monshafter about a decade's old

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<v Speaker 1>study that showed transgender children could be counseled out of

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<v Speaker 1>wanting to transition.

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<v Speaker 7>Back then, the children were described as gender disordered and

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<v Speaker 7>it was basically suggesting that psychotherapy could be used to

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<v Speaker 7>treat this behavior. These kids were hospitalized because they were

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<v Speaker 7>displaying what the report describes as cross gender behavior, and

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<v Speaker 7>it's clear that the intention was to stop that. And

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<v Speaker 7>we now know that such practices are very dangerous, they

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<v Speaker 7>don't work, and they cause long term psychological harm.

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<v Speaker 1>That study is still being used as an argument to

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<v Speaker 1>stop children getting gender affirming care. Have spoken to one

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<v Speaker 1>of the children studied to find out how their life unfolded,

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<v Speaker 1>and that conversation reveals a lot about the fault of

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<v Speaker 1>science underpinning our current debate on transgender healthcare. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating episode and it will be out tomorrow. See you then,