1 00:00:03,990 --> 00:00:06,389 Sean Aylmer : Welcome to the Fear and Greed business interview, I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,390 --> 00:00:10,410 Sean Aylmer : Aylmer. Health technology is a fascinating area to dip into. 3 00:00:10,410 --> 00:00:13,499 Sean Aylmer : There are almost as many next big things as there 4 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,799 Sean Aylmer : are disappointments. Getting products to market is a slow and 5 00:00:16,799 --> 00:00:21,180 Sean Aylmer : laborious process, but the rewards can literally be life- changing 6 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:24,360 Sean Aylmer : for many people. This morning's guest claims to take wearable 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,570 Sean Aylmer : technology to the next level by using sensors at a 8 00:00:27,570 --> 00:00:31,530 Sean Aylmer : hair's width in the skin, something that normal wearables can't 9 00:00:31,530 --> 00:00:35,848 Sean Aylmer : do. Mark Kendall is founder and CEO of WearOptimo, and 10 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:38,460 Sean Aylmer : joins me this morning. Mark, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:39,479 Mark Kendall: Hello, Sean. 12 00:00:39,870 --> 00:00:42,629 Sean Aylmer : So, I tried to describe what you're doing, but please, 13 00:00:42,630 --> 00:00:44,339 Sean Aylmer : I think it's better for the listeners that I leave 14 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:47,070 Sean Aylmer : it to you. For a lay person like me, what 15 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:48,150 Sean Aylmer : is WearOptimo doing? 16 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:53,429 Mark Kendall: So, Sean, we're generating the next generation of wearable sensors. 17 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:56,310 Mark Kendall: So, when we think of wearables, we think typically of 18 00:00:56,310 --> 00:01:00,120 Mark Kendall: something like an Apple Watch, something like that. And they're all 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,100 Mark Kendall: fine, but they sit on the surface of the skin, 20 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:05,429 Mark Kendall: and it turns out the skin's an amazing organ, it 21 00:01:05,429 --> 00:01:08,039 Mark Kendall: does a great job at keeping the bad stuff out 22 00:01:08,069 --> 00:01:10,559 Mark Kendall: and the good stuff in. And what that means is 23 00:01:10,559 --> 00:01:13,920 Mark Kendall: it holds back signals, basically, it's a barrier. It stops 24 00:01:13,950 --> 00:01:16,590 Mark Kendall: the Apple Watch reading things that really matter a lot. 25 00:01:17,220 --> 00:01:21,149 Mark Kendall: And so, what we've identified in WearOptimo is a way to 26 00:01:21,150 --> 00:01:23,520 Mark Kendall: gain access to those signals that matter. A good way 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,309 Mark Kendall: of describing it is, imagine you're in a room, and 28 00:01:26,309 --> 00:01:28,229 Mark Kendall: there's a room next to you, and you're trying to 29 00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:31,139 Mark Kendall: listen to that room. You could put your ear against 30 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:33,150 Mark Kendall: the wall and you'll hear some muffled sounds, but if 31 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:35,819 Mark Kendall: you actually put a small hole in that wall, you 32 00:01:35,819 --> 00:01:38,970 Mark Kendall: can actually listen fully into that room. And so that's 33 00:01:38,970 --> 00:01:40,259 Mark Kendall: what we do, and the way we do it is 34 00:01:40,260 --> 00:01:44,580 Mark Kendall: with really tiny micro electrodes. And these signals matter in 35 00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:45,779 Mark Kendall: so many different levels. 36 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:50,850 Sean Aylmer : So, when we talk about a hair's width into the 37 00:01:50,850 --> 00:01:52,290 Sean Aylmer : skin, what are we talking about? 38 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,880 Mark Kendall: So, we're talking about 50 microns, that literally, the width of 39 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,809 Mark Kendall: a hair is about 50 microns or so. So, if 40 00:02:00,809 --> 00:02:03,900 Mark Kendall: you run your finger along our sensor, it just feels 41 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:08,130 Mark Kendall: like a very small grade Velcro or sandpaper, that gives 42 00:02:08,130 --> 00:02:10,168 Mark Kendall: you a little bit of a feeling of that sensation. 43 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:13,260 Sean Aylmer : And it actually penetrates the skin, is that the idea? 44 00:02:14,010 --> 00:02:17,639 Sean Aylmer : Minutely, but that's the difference between it and an Apple Watch, 45 00:02:17,669 --> 00:02:19,290 Sean Aylmer : is it actually penetrates the skin. 46 00:02:19,380 --> 00:02:22,469 Mark Kendall: Yeah, just enough though. So, it's stealth- like, if like. 47 00:02:22,469 --> 00:02:25,169 Mark Kendall: So, it comes down to challenging the definition of what 48 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:29,790 Mark Kendall: penetration actually means. So, it literally is just a hair's 49 00:02:29,790 --> 00:02:33,570 Mark Kendall: width in, so just going enough to reach these signals 50 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:36,179 Mark Kendall: that matter. And a big part of what we've done is 51 00:02:36,179 --> 00:02:39,690 Mark Kendall: identified where you need to go as well, and the 52 00:02:39,690 --> 00:02:42,270 Mark Kendall: types of signals that you can open up within that 53 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:43,890 Mark Kendall: location within the skin. 54 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,970 Sean Aylmer : Okay. So, I'm very keen to hear about its uses, 55 00:02:47,970 --> 00:02:49,920 Sean Aylmer : but when you say where it can go, is that 56 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:50,970 Sean Aylmer : where on the skin? 57 00:02:51,690 --> 00:02:54,360 Mark Kendall: Both. So, where within the skin, and then where on 58 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,940 Mark Kendall: the skin. I'll just give you one example. So take 59 00:02:57,030 --> 00:03:01,439 Mark Kendall: hydration. So continuous monitoring of hydration is a massive, massive 60 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,060 Mark Kendall: area of unmet need. The current approaches for monitoring hydration, 61 00:03:06,090 --> 00:03:11,339 Mark Kendall: unbelievably rudimentary. We're talking about, in the industrial setting, like 62 00:03:12,419 --> 00:03:14,880 Mark Kendall: a (inaudible) poster on the wall, at the toilets, 63 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,969 Mark Kendall: just asking what color your pee is. So, that's the 64 00:03:17,969 --> 00:03:21,360 Mark Kendall: level it currently is. But the problem's massive. If you're 65 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,410 Mark Kendall: only 3% dehydrated, as one example, it can have a 66 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:27,599 Mark Kendall: similar effect on your brain function as being over the 67 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:30,419 Mark Kendall: blood alcohol limit. And the reason why this is a 68 00:03:30,419 --> 00:03:32,850 Mark Kendall: problem, of course, is as we dehydrate, our brain shrinks. 69 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:36,990 Mark Kendall: So, we've identified that there's an area called the viable 70 00:03:36,990 --> 00:03:39,450 Mark Kendall: epidermis, which is just as that hair's width into the 71 00:03:39,450 --> 00:03:42,630 Mark Kendall: skin, and that's the area in our body that is 72 00:03:42,630 --> 00:03:45,210 Mark Kendall: the most sensitive to hydration. So, all we need to 73 00:03:45,210 --> 00:03:47,460 Mark Kendall: do is sense that location and we get a really 74 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:51,119 Mark Kendall: strong and clear signal that's telling us directly what's going 75 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,810 Mark Kendall: on with our hydration within our body. But as opposed 76 00:03:54,810 --> 00:03:57,930 Mark Kendall: to a poster on the wall, which is bluntly really 77 00:03:57,930 --> 00:04:01,080 Mark Kendall: crude and too late, even when you get a signal, 78 00:04:01,350 --> 00:04:05,370 Mark Kendall: we're getting this information on the go, with basically real 79 00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:07,680 Mark Kendall: time readouts throughout our wearable sensor. 80 00:04:08,219 --> 00:04:09,840 Sean Aylmer : Stay with me, Mark, we'll be back in a minute. 81 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:22,079 Sean Aylmer : My guest today is Mark Kendall, founder and CEO of WearOptimo. So, I'd 82 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,860 Sean Aylmer : imagine just that example you are talking about, a hydration 83 00:04:25,860 --> 00:04:30,539 Sean Aylmer : sensor, that would obviously have medical applications, but also in 84 00:04:30,539 --> 00:04:35,669 Sean Aylmer : mines, on the sporting field, I'd imagine, a very broad range 85 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:36,480 Sean Aylmer : of applications. 86 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,810 Mark Kendall: That's right. So, of course, we're a business, and so 87 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,830 Mark Kendall: we're concentrating on areas that matter, and meeting that unmet 88 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:47,428 Mark Kendall: need with viable commercial products. But you've touched on those 89 00:04:47,670 --> 00:04:52,050 Mark Kendall: markets. So, we have, in terms of large markets or volume- 90 00:04:52,050 --> 00:04:56,669 Mark Kendall: based markets, there's the mining sector, energy resources, construction, but 91 00:04:56,670 --> 00:04:59,309 Mark Kendall: there's also the military as well. So, out in the 92 00:04:59,309 --> 00:05:02,309 Mark Kendall: field, carrying all of the equipment, being out in hot 93 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:07,080 Mark Kendall: zones, hot temperatures, et cetera. Beyond that, age care is 94 00:05:07,109 --> 00:05:10,919 Mark Kendall: really important as well. It turns out everything that's bad 95 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,830 Mark Kendall: about hydration when we're in our prime just gets worse 96 00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:15,600 Mark Kendall: as we get older. And the reason why is that 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:17,998 Mark Kendall: the sensors that are in our body that tell us 98 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,609 Mark Kendall: that we need to drink deteriorate as we get older. 99 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,779 Mark Kendall: And so, when you see someone who is elderly refusing 100 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,400 Mark Kendall: to drink, it's not because they can't be bothered, it's 101 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,400 Mark Kendall: because their body's not telling them to do it. And 102 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,359 Mark Kendall: it's a massive, massive problem. As one example, half of 103 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,610 Mark Kendall: the things that go wrong for people in aged care 104 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,990 Mark Kendall: are directly attributed to poorly managed hydration. So, the aged 105 00:05:39,990 --> 00:05:44,099 Mark Kendall: care market is important and growing. But also, there's the 106 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:48,359 Mark Kendall: hospital settings, accident emergencies, when the first thing that happens 107 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,670 Mark Kendall: to you when you arrive at a hospital is they 108 00:05:50,670 --> 00:05:53,549 Mark Kendall: put a drip in and give you fluids. They have 109 00:05:53,550 --> 00:05:56,849 Mark Kendall: no way of knowing what that level needs to be. 110 00:05:57,420 --> 00:06:00,780 Mark Kendall: So, rolled up, all of those markets are north of 111 00:06:00,990 --> 00:06:03,270 Mark Kendall: 10 billion SAM per year. 112 00:06:03,779 --> 00:06:06,930 Sean Aylmer : Okay. So, this is the hydration sensor. It's currently in 113 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:09,120 Sean Aylmer : clinical trials, am I right? Where's that up to? 114 00:06:09,928 --> 00:06:13,170 Mark Kendall: That's right. Earlier this year we commenced a clinical testing, 115 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,459 Mark Kendall: and that's underway, and we've been generating really interesting and 116 00:06:17,459 --> 00:06:21,839 Mark Kendall: positive, compelling data. And so, our sensors generate the raw 117 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,680 Mark Kendall: signals, the micro wearable sensors generate the data, and the 118 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,389 Mark Kendall: type of thing we're putting these participants through is a dehydration/ 119 00:06:30,389 --> 00:06:34,859 Mark Kendall: rehydration protocol in an environmental chamber. So, imagine you're in 120 00:06:34,859 --> 00:06:39,659 Mark Kendall: 40 degrees Celsius environment, at a given humidity, and you're 121 00:06:39,660 --> 00:06:42,900 Mark Kendall: put through an exercise regime, and we gather that data, 122 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:45,480 Mark Kendall: we're getting millions of data points per person per day, 123 00:06:45,928 --> 00:06:48,988 Mark Kendall: and then we apply our data analytics AI on top 124 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:53,099 Mark Kendall: of that, and pull out these insights into hydration, which 125 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:56,610 Mark Kendall: we're working towards generating what's called a hydration index. 126 00:06:57,330 --> 00:07:00,299 Sean Aylmer : Okay. So, how far down the track are you? When are 127 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,950 Sean Aylmer : you hoping that these trials, assuming they are successful, is 128 00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:07,740 Sean Aylmer : this another year or two before we get to that point? 129 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:09,959 Mark Kendall: Yeah, so we're in the thick of our trials now, 130 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,280 Mark Kendall: and we're working on that pathway towards products. So, that's 131 00:07:14,550 --> 00:07:18,000 Mark Kendall: what's underway right now. The process that we're looking to 132 00:07:18,060 --> 00:07:22,679 Mark Kendall: be towards product could be potentially all going well the 133 00:07:22,679 --> 00:07:26,099 Mark Kendall: backend of 2025, or early '26, for our first volume 134 00:07:26,099 --> 00:07:29,369 Mark Kendall: product sales. One thing I forgot to say, coming back 135 00:07:29,369 --> 00:07:31,950 Mark Kendall: to earlier question about the markets, I just wanted to 136 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:34,980 Mark Kendall: add something else. And that is before we go to 137 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:38,940 Mark Kendall: volume sales, like the military and/ or the mining sector, 138 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,800 Mark Kendall: they're big markets, right now we're working with elite athletes, 139 00:07:43,889 --> 00:07:48,000 Mark Kendall: and they're the most interested party, or the most motivated 140 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,540 Mark Kendall: party, because they're looking for that particular edge. So, one 141 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:54,810 Mark Kendall: of our investors is Mark Weber, the Formula One champion, 142 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,170 Mark Kendall: and he's also a strategic partner into WearOptimo. That means 143 00:07:58,650 --> 00:08:02,549 Mark Kendall: we're working actively with him in this space. And what's 144 00:08:02,549 --> 00:08:05,039 Mark Kendall: in front of us is a work plan where, all 145 00:08:05,039 --> 00:08:09,210 Mark Kendall: going well, elite Motorsports drivers, like Formula One drivers, all 146 00:08:09,210 --> 00:08:13,410 Mark Kendall: going well, could be wearing our sensors soon. And that's 147 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:16,980 Mark Kendall: on the pathway towards volume sales, but highly impactful for 148 00:08:16,980 --> 00:08:17,939 Mark Kendall: our business as well. 149 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:22,199 Sean Aylmer : Yeah, it's a good point. Commercializing technology has always been 150 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:25,740 Sean Aylmer : a challenge. A couple of points on that. I know 151 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:30,600 Sean Aylmer : the ANU, the Australian National University's Innovation Program had something to do with this 152 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,510 Sean Aylmer : in the early days, having a high profile person like 153 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:36,809 Sean Aylmer : Mark Weber around... Two questions. First, how important is it 154 00:08:36,809 --> 00:08:40,350 Sean Aylmer : to have someone like the ANU behind you? And the 155 00:08:40,350 --> 00:08:43,440 Sean Aylmer : second part is, when you are thinking about going to the 156 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,480 Sean Aylmer : market, how important is it to have someone as high 157 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,130 Sean Aylmer : profile as Mark Weber? 158 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,599 Mark Kendall: The ANU is essential. I'm convinced WearOptimo would not have 159 00:08:51,599 --> 00:08:55,049 Mark Kendall: played out in the positive and accelerated way that it 160 00:08:55,049 --> 00:08:59,429 Mark Kendall: has without the tremendous backing of the ANU. They came 161 00:08:59,429 --> 00:09:01,858 Mark Kendall: in at the very beginning and backed us in a 162 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:06,958 Mark Kendall: way that, it's unprecedented. Several million dollars of backing. When 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,319 Mark Kendall: we didn't spin out from the Australian National University, I 164 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,900 Mark Kendall: knew the vice chancellor of the ANU, but I'd never 165 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:15,420 Mark Kendall: worked with him professionally before, but he was willing to 166 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:18,059 Mark Kendall: back us, and the university was willing to give their 167 00:09:18,059 --> 00:09:23,848 Mark Kendall: full institutional support, for us to go hard on realizing 168 00:09:23,850 --> 00:09:27,389 Mark Kendall: this vision of wearables and precision medicine. And to do 169 00:09:27,389 --> 00:09:29,730 Mark Kendall: it in Brisbane as well, as opposed to do it 170 00:09:29,730 --> 00:09:35,009 Mark Kendall: in Canberra. So, they're brilliant foundational investors and partners and 171 00:09:35,010 --> 00:09:39,030 Mark Kendall: continue to do so. We've commenced our grant with the 172 00:09:39,030 --> 00:09:41,429 Mark Kendall: Queensland government to set up a facility based here in 173 00:09:41,429 --> 00:09:43,230 Mark Kendall: Brisbane that can make the better part of 20 million 174 00:09:43,230 --> 00:09:46,200 Mark Kendall: micro wearables per year, the ANU is dollar matching that, 175 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,200 Mark Kendall: so they're still putting millions of dollars into WearOptimo as 176 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,879 Mark Kendall: we speak. So, ANU is essential. Now, beyond that, we 177 00:09:53,879 --> 00:09:57,390 Mark Kendall: are a business, so we have a commercial strategic partnership 178 00:09:57,390 --> 00:10:00,840 Mark Kendall: and investment from Aspen Medical, as an example. And I'll 179 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,040 Mark Kendall: come on to Mark Weber momentarily. But Aspen Medical are 180 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Mark Kendall: the world's second- biggest provider of emergency services for the 181 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:14,218 Mark Kendall: mining energy resources and military sectors globally. And so, they've 182 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:17,790 Mark Kendall: come on, invested into WearOptimo, and we have a strategic 183 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:22,800 Mark Kendall: distribution deal partnership with them to open up that first 184 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Mark Kendall: channel for our first volume markets. So, we're gaining traction 185 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,559 Mark Kendall: commercially in that area and we're working with them closely 186 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,970 Mark Kendall: on learning the particular market needs. So, that's been great, 187 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:35,699 Mark Kendall: but the Mark Weber piece on top of that, with 188 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:40,410 Mark Kendall: the immediate elite sports settings, that's been fantastic too. 189 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:42,929 Sean Aylmer : Okay, so you've got plenty of support there. You are 190 00:10:42,929 --> 00:10:44,608 Sean Aylmer : raising capital at the moment, is that right? 191 00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:48,270 Mark Kendall: That's right, we are raising capital to realize the clinical 192 00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:50,280 Mark Kendall: trials that we've just talked about. We have a highly 193 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:56,910 Mark Kendall: focused company, creating and producing that pivotal first world only 194 00:10:56,910 --> 00:11:00,150 Mark Kendall: clinical data, here in Australia. And of course, to do 195 00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:03,089 Mark Kendall: that requires capital, and so we're doing a capital raise 196 00:11:03,089 --> 00:11:03,750 Mark Kendall: as we speak. 197 00:11:04,379 --> 00:11:06,179 Sean Aylmer : Good luck with that Mark, and thank you for talking 198 00:11:06,179 --> 00:11:06,960 Sean Aylmer : to Fear and Greed. 199 00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:08,430 Mark Kendall: Thanks very much, Sean. 200 00:11:09,059 --> 00:11:12,330 Sean Aylmer : That was Mark Kendall, founder and CEO of WearOptimo. This 201 00:11:12,330 --> 00:11:14,490 Sean Aylmer : is the Fear and Greed business interview, join us every 202 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:17,399 Sean Aylmer : morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 203 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,368 Sean Aylmer : best business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.