WEBVTT - How teens are fighting the social media ban

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven.

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<v Speaker 2>AM right now. TikTok is a wash with videos of

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<v Speaker 2>how to get around the social media ban for.

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<v Speaker 1>Under sixteens, which is due to come into effect in

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<v Speaker 1>a week.

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<v Speaker 2>At the same time, fringe apps like Yopah rockining up

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<v Speaker 2>the Apple charts as teenagers plan where they'll go when

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<v Speaker 2>the major platforms boot them off. There's also a court

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<v Speaker 2>case underway challenging the government on whether the ban is

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<v Speaker 2>even legal. Today, Associate editor at Kraichi, Cam Wilson on

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<v Speaker 2>who is behind the lawsuit, whether they'll win, and how

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<v Speaker 2>this ban could change the country. It's Wednesday, December three,

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<v Speaker 2>so can The social media ban is due to come

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<v Speaker 2>into effect in just a few days now, but already

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<v Speaker 2>there is a legal challenge underway. So to begin with,

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<v Speaker 2>can you tell me about who is trying to take

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<v Speaker 2>the social media band.

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<v Speaker 1>To the High Court?

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<v Speaker 3>The group behind the High Court challenge is this new

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<v Speaker 3>association called the Digital Freedom Project. They're led by libertarian

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<v Speaker 3>MLC from New South Wales, John Roddick. And not much

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<v Speaker 3>is really known about the group. It just came out

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<v Speaker 3>of nowhere. We don't even know the people who elected

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<v Speaker 3>John Roddick, the president. He just said that he was.

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<v Speaker 4>Expecting that young Google or Elon Musk, these big tech platforms,

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<v Speaker 4>that they would be taking this high court challenge. The

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<v Speaker 4>other ones are facing fifty million.

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<v Speaker 3>Dollar five good point, where are they?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, they were saying they were going to do it,

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<v Speaker 4>but I mean me and my mates sat around two

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<v Speaker 4>months ago said well, they're not going to We're on

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<v Speaker 4>track for no one to do anything. So we said, well,

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<v Speaker 4>let's start the Digital Freedom Project.

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<v Speaker 3>But the group claims to have now thousands of supporters

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<v Speaker 3>who are who've kind of got on board, and perhaps

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<v Speaker 3>some of them are donating to this case. The one

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<v Speaker 3>thing that we do know that gives us a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit of sid into the challenge is that it is

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<v Speaker 3>being run by a war firm that has been part

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<v Speaker 3>of a few I would call them cultural war challenges

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<v Speaker 3>to wars in the past. And one of their solicitors

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<v Speaker 3>who was contacting expert witnesses to appear for this challenge

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<v Speaker 3>is Catherine Deves. She's a former Liberal candidate in Warringa

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<v Speaker 3>who has a history of anti trans comments. Her background

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<v Speaker 3>is notable because one of the groups that Digital Freedom

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<v Speaker 3>Projects that will be most affected by this is LGBT teams. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean that definitely has gotten a little bit of

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<v Speaker 3>attention on that. So they filed a challenge in court

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<v Speaker 3>and they're hoping to get an injunction in the war

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<v Speaker 3>refinding out over the next couple of days. Whether either

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<v Speaker 3>of those two applications are successful.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, okay?

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<v Speaker 2>And what about the two teenagers that are kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the face of it, the names to the challenge. What

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<v Speaker 2>do we know about them and the case that they're

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<v Speaker 2>making here?

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<v Speaker 3>So there were two teenage plaintiffs in the case and

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<v Speaker 3>the grounds of which has been challenged. Is this idea

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<v Speaker 3>of the ban infringes on the implied right to freedom

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<v Speaker 3>of political expression in Australia.

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<v Speaker 4>There is an implied right to the freedom of political

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<v Speaker 4>communication in this country. Okay, Now it's not written in

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<v Speaker 4>the constitution, but they've accepted it now for about three or.

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<v Speaker 5>Four The freedom of political communication right different in free speech.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, well, the Americans have got it a lot better

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<v Speaker 4>than us, and that's what we will.

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<v Speaker 3>Trains don't really have a explicit freedom of speech right

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<v Speaker 3>as there are in some other countries, but there has

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<v Speaker 3>kind of been one cobbled together through case war and

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<v Speaker 3>other means, and so this is the grounds on which

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<v Speaker 3>the band has been challenged.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I'm grateful to be the plaintiff for young Australians

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<v Speaker 5>having like the right to free speech, and I feel

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<v Speaker 5>with this.

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<v Speaker 3>Band in place will be invisible.

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<v Speaker 5>We won't be able to share our views or opinions,

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<v Speaker 5>and we won't be able to hear political views or opinions.

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<v Speaker 3>So we'll just be isolated.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've heard that from many teenagers.

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<v Speaker 6>Haven't waited the idea that this ban interferes with their

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<v Speaker 6>freedom of political expression and might you know, hinder their

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<v Speaker 6>ability to say what they think.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean so, So the way that the band

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<v Speaker 3>works is obviously it's cutting off a portion of the

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<v Speaker 3>population from one of the main ways that politics is

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<v Speaker 3>done in Australia in terms of both getting information about

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<v Speaker 3>what's happened, but also having a say in what happens.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, the fact that they're not actually voters isn't

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily an issue, and I think it's pretty fitting that

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<v Speaker 3>you know, a lot of the discussion around the ban

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<v Speaker 3>and a lot of the pushback a lot if it's

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<v Speaker 3>happened online, So it's kind of almost in a way

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<v Speaker 3>case and point that teams are using in many cases

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<v Speaker 3>the tools that are being taken away from them to

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<v Speaker 3>prove that hey, actually this is the thing that we

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<v Speaker 3>use to take pun in politics.

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<v Speaker 2>And the Abenezy government has said that they'll stand firm

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<v Speaker 2>that they won't be intimidated by legal challeng.

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<v Speaker 7>And despite the fact that we are receiving threats and

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<v Speaker 7>legal challenges by people with ulterior motives, the Albanese government

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<v Speaker 7>remains steadfastly on the site of parents and not of platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>So do you think that they have been preparing for

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<v Speaker 2>cases like this to be brought When the.

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<v Speaker 3>War was initially passed, there was some discussion about a

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<v Speaker 3>potential challenge, but really this has been on the agenda

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<v Speaker 3>of the government, particularly since Google. In the middle of

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<v Speaker 3>the year, after it was announced that the government was

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<v Speaker 3>actually going to change tact and include YouTube in the

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<v Speaker 3>team social media ban, their response was to send through

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<v Speaker 3>a very legal sounding letter that was in fact signed

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<v Speaker 3>by Google's Australias head of counsel saying here are the

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<v Speaker 3>three avenues for a legal challenge, and one of them

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<v Speaker 3>was a constitutionality. And so obviously when you get one

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<v Speaker 3>of the biggest companies in the world, one who has

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sure very well paid and very effective lawyers on side.

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<v Speaker 3>They've been thinking about this and talking about, no doubt

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<v Speaker 3>preparing for this since then. And I think that's actually

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<v Speaker 3>one of the kind of interesting things, which is, like,

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<v Speaker 3>despite the fact that the law came into effect the

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<v Speaker 3>last year and it's had this long runway, many of

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<v Speaker 3>the details have taken a while to come out, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think that that process has actually been slowed down

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<v Speaker 3>by the fear of a legal challenge. I think that

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<v Speaker 3>there is like a kind of interesting question, which is,

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<v Speaker 3>even if it is successful and this war actually is

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<v Speaker 3>struck down, you know, the next step from the government

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<v Speaker 3>might be doing something very similar as we saw with

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<v Speaker 3>immigration law when there was one struck down in the

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<v Speaker 3>High Court. So it's a bit of a game of

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<v Speaker 3>chad and mouse, and everyone is trying to play this

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<v Speaker 3>out and understand what ends up happening. But you know,

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<v Speaker 3>in all of this, the government has been really firm

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<v Speaker 3>and saying, hey, we're sticking with this despite the legal threats,

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<v Speaker 3>because I think fundamentally they think it plays well for them.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the political forces behind this war is that

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<v Speaker 3>there has been this desire in the community to crack

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<v Speaker 3>down big tech. So the fact that there is a

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<v Speaker 3>fight of this, oh, I'm sure it's a pain in

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<v Speaker 3>the neck for some government warriors. It's something that I

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<v Speaker 3>imagine the government it relishes to take on some industry

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<v Speaker 3>that people are excited to see tange.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. Will the ban work?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll have to wait and see how this particular

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<v Speaker 2>legal challenge plays out. But in the meantime, we're already

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<v Speaker 2>hearing from politicians that this ban is not going to

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<v Speaker 2>be perfect and that we should expect there to be

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<v Speaker 2>problems when it does come into effect on December ten.

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<v Speaker 1>So what are they talking about? What is likely to happen?

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<v Speaker 3>So, I mean in fantas to the government. They've been

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<v Speaker 3>saying this since before the war has passed, the saying

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<v Speaker 3>we don't expect this to be perfect. But I've noticed,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly over the last few months, they've really made that

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<v Speaker 3>one of the core parts of this message.

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<v Speaker 7>We know this law will be perfect, but it is

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<v Speaker 7>too important not to have a crack.

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<v Speaker 3>And the key to understanding why all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 3>the government is really stressing the fact that this thing

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<v Speaker 3>that they're doing might have problems is because fundamentally this

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<v Speaker 3>will puts the onus on these companies to be the

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<v Speaker 3>ones who implement it, which is this funny tension where

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<v Speaker 3>at the same time they're saying, you know, they can't

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<v Speaker 3>be trusted, YadA ya YadA, they're also giving these companies

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<v Speaker 3>the responsibility of forcing it right.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell me more then about how the platforms plan

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<v Speaker 2>on doing that. How are they going to enforce the

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<v Speaker 2>man We.

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<v Speaker 3>Know that these social media platforms are using a variety

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<v Speaker 3>of tools. They're using everything from analyzing the data that

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<v Speaker 3>they already have about you, Like, for example, I'm going

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<v Speaker 3>to age myself here. I think I've had like a

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<v Speaker 3>Facebook account for thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years. It's not going

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<v Speaker 3>to take a genius at Meta to realize to look

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<v Speaker 3>at when my account was created and be like, that

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<v Speaker 3>probably belongs to someone who's more than sixteen years of age.

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<v Speaker 3>But if that doesn't work, if they don't have that

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<v Speaker 3>information on you, or they're not confident in that the

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<v Speaker 3>other men that they'll be using a things like facial

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<v Speaker 3>scans or uploading your government ID. Facial scans are a

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<v Speaker 3>technology that have pretty well known flaws, particularly when it

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<v Speaker 3>comes to distinguishing people who are over sixteen or under

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<v Speaker 3>sixteen when you get pretty close to it, and so

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the government is saying, hey, you might have

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<v Speaker 3>some issues with this, either the scans not working properly

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<v Speaker 3>and not letting you actually access to social media pound all,

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<v Speaker 3>the band itself might not be perfect, that people will

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<v Speaker 3>get through the band, that they'll have workarounds, that they'll

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<v Speaker 3>convince these systems that you are over sixteen when you're not.

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<v Speaker 3>So either way, you know, they're trying to lower expectations

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<v Speaker 3>to say doesn't work in progress. But where I think,

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<v Speaker 3>as the Prime minis has said, it's worthwhile having a crack.

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<v Speaker 2>And there is also, I suppose the other side of this,

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<v Speaker 2>which is that there are apps companies that aren't named

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<v Speaker 2>and don't fall under the ban yet and people could

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<v Speaker 2>you know, flock to them instead, and that could kind

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<v Speaker 2>of happen indefinitely.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, that's right. So I mean I noticed last

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<v Speaker 3>week I was just the top apps on the Apple

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<v Speaker 3>App Store, and I was like, that's an app I've

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<v Speaker 3>never heard of. It was called yop and it stew

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<v Speaker 3>is called YopE and it is a kind of little

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<v Speaker 3>known social media platform that was launched in the US

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<v Speaker 3>at the end of last year. I did a bit

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<v Speaker 3>of research and found that teens online were already saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>this band is coming up. The government has put out

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<v Speaker 3>this list of ten platforms that will definitely need to

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<v Speaker 3>comply with the ban. Others might be added, but just

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<v Speaker 3>for now, just so you know, these are the ones

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<v Speaker 3>who would definitely be in it. YopE is not in

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<v Speaker 3>the band. So teens trying to say what are we

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<v Speaker 3>going to do post December ten? Where are we going

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<v Speaker 3>to go? Meant that that app, as well as a

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<v Speaker 3>Instagram like app that comes from the same company that

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<v Speaker 3>owns TikTok, which is called by Dance. That app, which

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<v Speaker 3>is Lemonade, had also become one of the most downloaded

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<v Speaker 3>apps in Australia over towards the end of last weekend.

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<v Speaker 3>What is Lemonade? I keep getting these requests on TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>saying so and so wants to follow There's an.

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<v Speaker 6>App called lemon eight, which we all kind of know about.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we don't really all use I just

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<v Speaker 2>downloaded it and there's a link in my bio right now.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think the real question is when they go

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<v Speaker 3>to these alternatives, what experience are they going to have

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<v Speaker 3>on these platforms really good at taking care of young users?

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<v Speaker 3>Do they invest in it at all? I was having

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<v Speaker 3>a look at Yope's website. They don't even have any

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<v Speaker 3>information about any trust and safety that they do. This

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<v Speaker 3>is one of the scenarios that critics of the band

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<v Speaker 3>raises a fear, because you know, the thing is online.

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<v Speaker 3>When you ban something, it's very easy to just kind

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<v Speaker 3>of create something new and go there without much puzzle.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so the goal here of this legislation is to

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<v Speaker 2>protect children from harmful content online. So what is your sense,

0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:41.000
<v Speaker 2>broadly speaking of where the legislation like this can influence

0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.880
<v Speaker 2>young people's desire to get on already existing platforms new

0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.679
<v Speaker 2>platforms to the extent where this legislation would actually make

0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.480
<v Speaker 2>a meaningful difference to a generation of young people.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's going to make a meaningful difference. I mean,

0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.880
<v Speaker 3>love it or hate it. This war is drastically going

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<v Speaker 3>to change how young people use their device because the

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<v Speaker 3>most popular platforms for young people are now supposed to

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<v Speaker 3>be out of reach. And you know, while I definitely

0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.840
<v Speaker 3>think there'll be workarounds on the major platforms, people will

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.719
<v Speaker 3>fool them. People will get their parents to vouch for

0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.959
<v Speaker 3>them by using their face or providing their ID. I

0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:19.719
<v Speaker 3>do think that a lot of teams will not, and

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.559
<v Speaker 3>so there will be adaptation to that. I mean, I

0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.000
<v Speaker 3>think the question that's been up in the air the

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<v Speaker 3>whole time is not only will it work as well

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<v Speaker 3>as the government has promised, but also comparing it to

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<v Speaker 3>if we didn't do this, what else could we have done?

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<v Speaker 3>Because a lot of the public debate has been well,

0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 3>we should either do the ban or not do anything

0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 3>at all. But the experts that I spoke to, academics

0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 3>to study this, expressed to me that all the time

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<v Speaker 3>that we spent in this, all the political capital to

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.640
<v Speaker 3>do something that might not be as effective as was promised.

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.640
<v Speaker 3>There are other options out there about ways that we

0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.839
<v Speaker 3>can regulate with technology. Meanwhile, when this is done, will

0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.600
<v Speaker 3>it really be a public appetite to do more regulation,

0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 3>to have more discussion over it? The question is are

0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 3>we missing an opportunity where there is this will to

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.240
<v Speaker 3>do something that might be more targeted and more effective.

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.440
<v Speaker 3>I guess we'll say, well, Cam, thank you so much

0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.280
<v Speaker 3>for your time, thanks for having me.

0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Also in the news today, recent governments have rewarded friends

0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 2>with plum jobs, A scathing review into political appointments has confirmed.

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.080
<v Speaker 2>The government commissioned the report, which has become known as

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.000
<v Speaker 2>the Jobs for Mates Review, in twenty twenty two and

0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.280
<v Speaker 2>promised to release it in twenty twenty three.

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.000
<v Speaker 1>It was finally released yesterday.

0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.719
<v Speaker 2>And said that government appointments looked like forms of patronage

0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.120
<v Speaker 2>and nepotism that should have no place in modern Australian society.

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>In response, the government says it has a new framework

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.040
<v Speaker 2>for picking appointments, but it has also rejected a number

0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:02.679
<v Speaker 2>of key recommendations, and an inquiry intersexual violence in the

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 2>ADF is set to proceed. The Defense Personnel Minister Machio

0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.199
<v Speaker 2>has confirmed it's been a year since the final report

0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 2>from the Royal Commission into Defense and Veterans' Suicide, when

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 2>the inquiry was first recommended and agreed to. Now the

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 2>government has given more detail into the scope, which includes

0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 2>a review of the efficacy of military justice compared with

0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>civilian justice, a look at perpetrator accountability, and barriers deterring

0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 2>alleged victims from reporting their abuse. The inquiry is expected

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>to begin mid next year.

0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.