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Speaker 1: You know this gender reckoning of like modern and traditional

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Speaker 1: ideologies clashing is frightening, and so everyone returns to what

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Speaker 1: they know or what they've seen, as if that was

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Speaker 1: always in our best interests. It wasn't. There has to

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Speaker 1: be a twenty first century where we say, the modern

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Speaker 1: man looks different, feels different, acts different, and still feels

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Speaker 1: like a man, still looks like a man, and is

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Speaker 1: able to show up in whatever way he sees fit.

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Speaker 2: Good. Thanks for listening to the show. This is better

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Speaker 2: than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations helping them make

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Speaker 2: your day to day, But then yesterday every week since

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Speaker 2: twenty thirtyday. My name's Oshaly Ginsburg. Thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for being here. Question off the top here? How should

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Speaker 2: men be? How should men be? How should they be

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Speaker 2: for the ones that they love, for their commune, for themselves?

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Speaker 2: What gets in the way of men being the way

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Speaker 2: that we hope they can be? What can help them

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Speaker 2: be that way? We know what we don't want them

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Speaker 2: to be, But what examples or maybe what ideas can

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Speaker 2: we point to to say, hey that over there they're

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Speaker 2: they're questions? No question, But my guest today has I

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Speaker 2: don't know made a career out of researching the answers.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is doctor Zach Sidler. He's the Global

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Speaker 2: director of Men's Health Research at November. He's a clinical

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Speaker 2: psychologist to research Associate Professor at ORIGEN, Australia Center of

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Speaker 2: Excellence in Youth Mental Health, And as you're hear, doctor

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Speaker 2: Zach Sidler is an expectant dad to a young son

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Speaker 2: of his own weeks away. In this conversation, Zach explains

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Speaker 2: a few things why he has He prefers not to

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Speaker 2: use the word masculinity and has a different way that

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Speaker 2: we might be able to refer to that idea, his

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Speaker 2: thoughts on the manner sphere what young men really needs

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Speaker 2: right now has so much more and as the father

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Speaker 2: to be, it is kind of fascinating when everything we've

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Speaker 2: been discussing turns around to him and the next weeks, months,

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Speaker 2: and eighteen years of his life. It's a great conversation.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to it right after this. Thanks listening to

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Speaker 2: the show, Let's get to doctor Zach Seidler, who on

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Speaker 2: the day we met had a very strong opening opening

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Speaker 2: couple of overs for November. I think was the seventh.

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Speaker 2: I think when we met I'm fifty one, I'm still

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Speaker 2: only producing bumfluff, and yet here I am sitting across

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Speaker 2: the table from this man with a job. He was

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Speaker 2: working hard. That being said, even if you don't throw

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Speaker 2: some money my way, I'll put the link in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. Find someone you know that is trying to

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Speaker 2: grow and give them some money for November, because it

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Speaker 2: is the one charity that I support. They do incredible work,

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Speaker 2: incredible work, and doctor Zach Sideler is an incredible example

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Speaker 2: of the work that they do. Enjoy this conversation. Happy November.

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Speaker 2: It's good to see you, Zach.

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Speaker 1: You too, How are things with you? Things are pretty crazy.

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Speaker 1: I'm about to have a baby like in e in

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Speaker 1: eight weeks. Oh god, yeah, he's coming in fresh He's

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Speaker 1: currently called Zeus. But that's gonna last. So that's pretty actic.

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Speaker 1: And it's not at all a serious pressure to put

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Speaker 1: on a tiny child to be the god of gods.

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Speaker 1: I see no problem.

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Speaker 2: So you know, lean in. Have you ever been to Mexico?

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Speaker 2: Do you know how many people call Jesus there? Have you?

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Speaker 2: Just lean in? Mate? Muhammed is the most common name ever, right,

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Speaker 2: So people have no problem laving their children after you

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Speaker 2: know very revere people.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, it's fine, but at least this has got a dope

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Speaker 1: beard and lightning bolts and lightning bolts. Yeah, he's currently

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Speaker 1: lightning bolting my wife, every man, kicking her all over

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Speaker 1: the shop.

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Speaker 2: This is your first Yeah, okay, yeah, so I can

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Speaker 2: feel you in. I did another podcast with Charlie Lauslon

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Speaker 2: called Dad Potten, which is all about it. But I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you, like straight up, take snacks. You could be

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Speaker 2: there for a lot longer than you think you are.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely positively do not yawn, no, don't no, get all

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Speaker 2: those Boss coffee cans you can.

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Speaker 1: Don't just like toothpicks in the eye.

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Speaker 2: If she sees you like what, no, like, she is going.

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Speaker 2: She is doing the math max one rep Max of all.

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Speaker 1: It is the left.

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Speaker 2: It is the most profoundly incredible thing you've ever witnessed, unbelieved,

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Speaker 2: no wonder. You know patriarchy exists because people went, oh god,

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Speaker 2: women can do that. Well, let's make sure they don't

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Speaker 2: fucking figure out how to run things because we're yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's the best day of life. Wow. And when you

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Speaker 2: hold them and your skin's on them. There's a Pheromonal

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Speaker 2: conversation that happens between the two of you, and it's

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Speaker 2: the first time after the age of twenty five that

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Speaker 2: you get a burst of brain growth. You grow more neurons,

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Speaker 2: the only time in your life to help you deal

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Speaker 2: with the extra logistics of this child.

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Speaker 1: I need that I've been pruning for years just to

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Speaker 1: add give me some volume.

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Speaker 2: Please go, it's fucking it's so good to have you

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Speaker 2: on the show. We last time we spoke was under

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Speaker 2: my house in the old studio, which is still my office,

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Speaker 2: but it's not as spacious as this is. And we

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Speaker 2: were on day six of November. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: real undergun compared to you. Man.

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Speaker 1: My wife said, get that chin out of my house.

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Speaker 1: Oh dish. It's just because my beard is pretty voluminous,

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Speaker 1: and this is it's hard to know what's underneath sometimes

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Speaker 1: and she's not into it. And I go, men's health, mate, How.

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Speaker 2: Dare you you go straight from November to descend beard?

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Speaker 2: You just go roll straight through and there it comes

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Speaker 2: all right. Naturally, there's was that NBA player James Harden

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Speaker 2: Like no one's seen his face, no in fifteen years.

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Speaker 2: What does he look like?

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Speaker 1: We've got We've got so damn Repercoli, who's a minister

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Speaker 1: in the Hunter. He's the Special Envoy on men's health.

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Speaker 1: The biggest fucking beard you've ever seen in your life,

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Speaker 1: like twelve years growth proper Bushranger. Yeah, he shaved it

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Speaker 1: last last Friday for us. And his children are screaming

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Speaker 1: because they've never seen him. They have no idea this guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's going on with that? It's it's pretty it's scary stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm into it. It's the magic. There's also Halloween, like

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Speaker 1: just laying it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is a lot has happened in the space

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Speaker 2: of men's men's health, particularly men's mental health, since we

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Speaker 2: last caught up. You had done a huge report. You've

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Speaker 2: done that. You've really steno the report last year. You know,

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Speaker 2: this is what you're spilling ink for a living. This

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Speaker 2: is what you do though. This is where the rubber

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Speaker 2: meets road. This is where the money goes for November

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Speaker 2: is too, is not what do we do with this cash?

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Speaker 2: We make huge differences, and you know November have got

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Speaker 2: leaps and bounds in changing how research is done in

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Speaker 2: the prostate cancer space. What's something that you've done in

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Speaker 2: the last you know, since we've seen each other you're

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Speaker 2: going like, wow, yeah, this is this is big.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the funny thing that it's like this

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Speaker 1: month is for doing chats like this and the rest

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Speaker 1: of the year we work, and that people don't understand.

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Speaker 1: It's like that's where the funds go. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: the one making decisions. We've got governance, like you know,

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Speaker 1: there's legit twenty four year old business. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: worked out how to make decisions that are actually going

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Speaker 1: to trickle down into two men's lives. But something that

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Speaker 1: you know, we've focused on pretty heavily, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you've got plenty of thoughts on this is the manosphere.

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Speaker 1: We spend a lot of time looking at men of

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Speaker 1: masculinity influences, and I can talk about the research that

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Speaker 1: we did looking at how young men are engaging online,

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Speaker 1: what their worlds look like, really specifically trying to get

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Speaker 1: away from this deficit based Everything is fucking broken, Everyone

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Speaker 1: is toxic. It's just a bad idea for engaging young

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Speaker 1: men in a conversation. And we actually also moved away

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Speaker 1: specifically from the term manisphere because I think last time

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Speaker 1: we chatted we were really going deep on that, because

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Speaker 1: we were so early and lots of this stuff was blossoming.

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Speaker 1: But we got to the point where we realized that

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Speaker 1: it's so mainstream. The term manisphere, which was derived from

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Speaker 1: this notion of like in cells and MRAs, men's rights

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Speaker 1: activists for instance, and pick up artists, it's like that

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Speaker 1: is the least of our problem at the moment. It's

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Speaker 1: now like this proliferation of content where a fifteen sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old kid is going on TikTok or otherwise and

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Speaker 1: within seconds is being fed. It's funny because it goes

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Speaker 1: from innocuous to harmful so quickly. And so we've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of work on that, which I can talk about.

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Speaker 1: We're also focusing on AI and trying to understand the

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Speaker 1: way in which guys of all ages are using AI

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Speaker 1: for health information, therapy or otherwise. So online gaming were

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Speaker 1: still doing a lot of that, and then we're really

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Speaker 1: focusing on the health system in an ongoing way to

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Speaker 1: build it in a way that's going to fundamentally manifestly,

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Speaker 1: you know, help guys when they come in for OLP.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the focus is on people who are

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Speaker 2: at risk, which is quite often young men who are

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Speaker 2: I don't know, they're in the body of an adult,

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Speaker 2: and they're thirteen years old, twelve years old. I was

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Speaker 2: as tall and big as I was. I think I

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Speaker 2: was thirteen or fourteen when I was a big I

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Speaker 2: didn't grow any further. I've been this huge since then.

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Speaker 2: But with the brain of a child, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you can get into problems. Thank god I didn't have,

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Speaker 2: you know, a dopamine machine in my hand, with all

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Speaker 2: the porn and you know everything. Who knows where I

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Speaker 2: would have ended up for work. I have to post

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Speaker 2: stuff on these platforms I see like, no, I you know,

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Speaker 2: my last name is Ginsburg, right, why are you feeding

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Speaker 2: me these?

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Speaker 1: But that's you've got critical insight because you're not a

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Speaker 1: digital native like you can go, oh, I remember a

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Speaker 1: world where this shit wasn't ruining my life.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're sending me to some guy who's you know,

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Speaker 2: lifting weights and talking about how Australias for Australians like.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's terrifying to see how quickly if you

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Speaker 1: if you lean into the right narratives and you get

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Speaker 1: a guy in an isolated space, you weaponize his attention,

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Speaker 1: you commercialize, you know, and you really start to see

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Speaker 1: that young men specifically go, well, no one cares about me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not valued. I don't matter. Mattering is something that

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Speaker 1: we're starting to think about a lot more, not in

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Speaker 1: you know, at atomic terms, but in this idea of

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Speaker 1: like why am I here? What do I have to offer?

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Speaker 1: And when the messaging, the coding around masculinity is so

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Speaker 1: broken and def young guys are going, oh, this guy's

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Speaker 1: promising me the world. They don't fucking deliver. But I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what they do. They pull you in, they

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Speaker 1: say I've got a you know, twelve step guide for you.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and when things start to go poorly, isolate

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Speaker 1: yourself from all of the you know, smart people in

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Speaker 1: your world who might actually shake you and blame women

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Speaker 1: and girls, blame migrants, blame everyone else, even though I

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Speaker 1: am the source of your anger and confusion because I've

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Speaker 1: taken your money, I've taken your time, I've disconnected you

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Speaker 1: from your friends. It's this dangerous cycle where they actually

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Speaker 1: pulled its cult. So I do think that we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to find a way to engage and empower

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Speaker 1: the user to understand that this isn't in their best interests,

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Speaker 1: and like mythbusting with young guys. You know, they'll go

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Speaker 1: they'll listen to three and a half hour podcasts because

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Speaker 1: they want like critical insight. And so it's like what

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Speaker 1: matters to them? What values do they have and how

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Speaker 1: can we turn those up? Because they don't want to

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Speaker 1: be ripped off, they don't want to be taken advantage of.

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Speaker 1: They actually think they're getting a secret and if we

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Speaker 1: can show them that the real secret is is that

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Speaker 1: Tates University is a piece of shit and it's taking

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Speaker 1: all your money and not offering anything. And this is

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Speaker 1: how the model works. No one is actually attempting to

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Speaker 1: pull the curtain back and say, hey, fifteen year old guy,

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Speaker 1: because they're telling us. They're like, oh, we see this

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Speaker 1: misogynistic crap, and I leave that at the door, the

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Speaker 1: homophobic stuff. I don't want that, but I watch him

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Speaker 1: because he's entertaining. And the fact that entertainment and like

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Speaker 1: motivation and this idea of like optimism, you can be

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Speaker 1: anything growth, it's beautiful, it's powerful. We want more of that.

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Speaker 1: But it's the fact that it always comes with the shadow,

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Speaker 1: which is that in order to succeed, someone else has

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Speaker 1: to suffer. In order to do this, you must do

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Speaker 1: this and I actually think that that is the real

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Speaker 1: issue here, which is that that's not made visible to

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Speaker 1: these young guys. What they're actually losing out Because the

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Speaker 1: people who watch more of this stuff, the people who

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Speaker 1: engage more, have more traditional masculine values, They end up

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Speaker 1: being much more isolated. Their mental health is way worse,

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Speaker 1: their physical health.

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Speaker 2: Is way worse.

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Speaker 1: The amount of time directly you spend on this stuff,

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Speaker 1: the worse you're going to.

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Speaker 2: Feel for people who, you know, listen to what you

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Speaker 2: just said, and they're thinking about a young person in

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Speaker 2: their life. You mentioned something before which is really important,

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Speaker 2: like anybody, but particularly young young men who were in

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Speaker 2: those kind of teenage years where what's going on. You said,

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Speaker 2: it's important that they feel like they're matter. How can

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Speaker 2: we make the young men in our life feel like

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Speaker 2: the matter.

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Speaker 1: I'd love you to think about yourself because I'm reflecting

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Speaker 1: back on you know, thirteen fourteen, fifteen year old Zac.

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Speaker 1: I thought I fucking knew everything I did.

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Speaker 2: Buthd right now, So have that missus Johnson.

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Speaker 1: Mate, don't get me started on my school teachers went

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Speaker 1: back and looked at my reports the other day. I

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Speaker 1: was like, honestly though, because it did have a very like, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's inattentive. He runs around sometimes, and it's like and

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Speaker 1: then there was one teacher who like saw my strengths

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Speaker 1: and saw my mattering, and he was like, this is

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Speaker 1: what you're capable of. And there was kindness and curiosity fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: and parents, I think, because they are fundamentally out of

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Speaker 1: their depth, they are not willing to admit they don't know,

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Speaker 1: and so they are leaning into punitive measures and that

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Speaker 1: is just the worst way to engage a young person.

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Speaker 1: It's like, don't drink, don't smoke, Let's just lock the door.

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Speaker 1: You lock the door. We watched adolescence. We see how

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Speaker 1: you know locking the door, what happens there? You need to.

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Speaker 2: Express the fact.

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Speaker 1: That you're trying to work this shit out as well,

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Speaker 1: and you want to work it out alongside them. Mattering

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Speaker 1: to them means showing them that you value their opinion.

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Speaker 1: That if they're watching Tate, you don't go give me

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Speaker 1: your phone. I'm deleting everything. You say, what's happening? What

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Speaker 1: does that feel like? Why are you watching that? Do

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Speaker 1: you enjoy? What do you not?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Leave the judgment at the door, find a way to

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Speaker 1: connect with his lived experience. Without that, you're just saying

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Speaker 1: I am right, you are wrong, and all that does

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Speaker 1: is isolate him further into the darkness.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that these tech companies are making money

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Speaker 2: off is pretty much isolating young men and young women,

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Speaker 2: but isolating young people and almost stripping them of the

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Speaker 2: experiences that they need to have in person interactions because

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Speaker 2: it's a simulacrum of life right here. I get to

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Speaker 2: have it without leaving my house. But it's not the same.

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Speaker 2: So if we're noticing a young person in our life

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Speaker 2: has started, you know, doesn't have that many mates, or

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Speaker 2: is starting to isolate and not wanting to go out

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Speaker 2: on weekends and hang with people, what can we do?

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Speaker 2: What can we do because they're not gonna hang out

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Speaker 2: with ours.

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Speaker 1: I think that the interesting thing around that is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the likes of Rogan and others. Young guys always tell

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Speaker 1: us sitting and watching this stuff makes them feel like

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Speaker 1: they have friends. They're watching guys in a room hanging out,

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Speaker 1: smoking joints, having a good time, and they're like, there's

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Speaker 1: this cultural relevancy, there's this feeling of connection, but it

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Speaker 1: washes away very quickly. There's actually no depth to it.

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Speaker 1: And lots of these guys are watching this content in

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Speaker 1: order to be relevant, in order to have things to say,

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Speaker 1: but they don't have anyone to say it too. And

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Speaker 1: so I actually think that if we can get to

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Speaker 1: the point where, you know, offline, we could now the

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Speaker 1: fact that we talk about online offline is crazy. Like

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Speaker 1: the fact that young people specifically are spending more time

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Speaker 1: online than they are with real people is like the

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Speaker 1: worst twenty thirty video I've ever seen, you know, It's

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Speaker 1: like what happened to the Jetsons? Why get done? We

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Speaker 1: have flying cars and everyone's happy, you know, the idea

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Speaker 1: of what modernism you know, profess to offer us. I

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Speaker 1: think this is a failed social experiment, and the social

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Speaker 1: media ban is an example of us trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: we're very good at regulating in Australia. Other countries I

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Speaker 1: don't think are really going to follow, but if you might,

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Speaker 1: we need to understand that you have to if you're

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Speaker 1: going to create these open slather new worlds for people

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Speaker 1: to inhabit, you need to consider the ramifications of that.

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Speaker 1: You need to consider how history has always gone and

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Speaker 1: the fact that tech is not always good and there

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Speaker 1: are some people who are not willing to admit that,

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Speaker 1: but tech can be very good for specific things. It's

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Speaker 1: going to you know, from a biological perspective, We're going

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Speaker 1: to cure disease through AI. Like, there's so many benefits here.

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Speaker 1: It's offering therapy to people in regional areas who could

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Speaker 1: never see anybody like awesome, awesome stuff, but like unfettered

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Speaker 1: access twenty four hours a day, non regulated, very worrying.

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Speaker 1: So like, what can we do in the offer flying

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Speaker 1: world with our kids specifically to be like you know?

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Speaker 1: And I think that that comes down to finding a

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Speaker 1: way to create connective tissue with them. You know, I

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Speaker 1: know you ride with your kids, you go and you know,

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Speaker 1: doing like physical activities which are away creating bonding that

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Speaker 1: feels good for you, and them not doing what you

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Speaker 1: think they want to do. And I think that that's

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Speaker 1: just the emmo across the board, which is that parents

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Speaker 1: decide this is how my childhood was, this is what

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Speaker 1: they value. But you are working against the poking machines

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Speaker 1: you know, in their heads.

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Speaker 2: In their pockets.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it will pull them. You feel every morning,

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Speaker 1: I feel my fucking phone talking to me.

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Speaker 2: Oh I've and it pains me to say this, but

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Speaker 2: I've I'm like, I'm not a perfect parent. And yes,

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Speaker 2: my son's has an iPad every now and again. I've

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Speaker 2: seen him. I was like, when it's time to turn

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Speaker 2: off you know this or that, he's it looks like withdrawal.

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Speaker 2: He goes. He Now suddenly he's got this huge crash,

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Speaker 2: this giant you know, dopemine crash, and he's act out

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Speaker 2: and he's freaked out, and he's only six, and so

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Speaker 2: we get around him and we try to help him

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Speaker 2: out like that. But if you've got a man's sized

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Speaker 2: version of that, which, let's be honest, I was fifteen

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Speaker 2: years old bumping into things. Man, was very insightful. You know, No,

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Speaker 2: just keep watching it, mate, just keep freaking watching. I

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Speaker 2: understand why people just go no, no, no, no, just just

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Speaker 2: keep doing that thing, because when you stop doing that thing,

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Speaker 2: it's horrible for everybody. It's easier if you just do

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Speaker 2: that thing. But by letting him just do that thing,

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Speaker 2: what they're missing out on is just years of getting

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Speaker 2: it right, getting it wrong, figuring out what another person,

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Speaker 2: you know, how.

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Speaker 1: To date, how to be rejected, how to oh my god,

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Speaker 1: anything anything, And that's that's the real thing.

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Speaker 2: There's there's young women in my life, you know that

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Speaker 2: I know through my step daughter, and they don't really

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Speaker 2: have boyfriends now, like guys don't ask them out.

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Speaker 1: But this is where have you heard the term hetero fatalism?

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Speaker 2: Tell me about this?

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Speaker 1: What's this idea?

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you want to know about it? Like,

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Speaker 2: this is the last moment of my life. I don't

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Speaker 2: know about this? Hit me?

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Speaker 1: This is this is the saddest you know, social cohesion

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Speaker 1: manifestation that you can see, which is this idea that

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Speaker 1: young women are Like I don't want a bar of this.

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Speaker 1: I have no desire, there's too much risk. They don't

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Speaker 1: ask me questions. They have completely different political ideologies to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to red flag the shit out of everyone.

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Speaker 1: Like that's a horrible reality.

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Speaker 2: To be living in.

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Speaker 1: I don't say that I blame them. I think that

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Speaker 1: we need to find a new communication style. If you know,

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Speaker 1: we used to have this ven diagram where not only

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Speaker 1: young people in middle aged people would have an overlap

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Speaker 1: in their media diets, but young women and young men

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Speaker 1: would have a massive overlap. We would see the same stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, we would watch the same things, play the

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Speaker 1: same games, et cetera. We're now at the point where

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Speaker 1: they literally they don't touch. These circles do not touch.

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Speaker 1: And how do you expect to put them in the

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Speaker 1: same room when they have been told that the other

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Speaker 1: is dangerous, that the other is stupid and conservative and

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Speaker 1: whatever it might be. My issue really with the way

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Speaker 1: in which we're framing this whole thing is that it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not truth. Like talking about young men and

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Speaker 1: young women in these homogeneous blobs is so at odds

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Speaker 1: with the reality of what's happening on the ground. But

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Speaker 1: when you put those stories out into the world, we

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Speaker 1: now have a self fulfilling prophecy. And we have and

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Speaker 1: this I've spoken on various podcasts which I know young

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Speaker 1: women are the same. Do you see other podcasters are?

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Speaker 2: I thought.

403
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Speaker 1: My main squeeze is like, don't worry, who.

404
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Speaker 2: The fuck is Madaline? This is like it's like the

405
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Speaker 2: Lily record. I know where you invited me to a

406
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Speaker 2: house once.

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Speaker 1: Now we have to be seen were there. Now we

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Speaker 1: have to be seen in public spaces.

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Speaker 2: We will do this on and now you said, but

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Speaker 2: you never said yestermat invitation. It's all happened next time.

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Speaker 1: In budgetes for budgets man.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, So you have had these conversations.

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Speaker 1: Around and and young women are like, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to do the work on behalf of the guy that

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting across from. Totally fair. I think that that,

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Speaker 1: you know, this idea of emotion regulation and you know,

417
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Speaker 1: finding a sense of self and value and et cetera

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Speaker 1: is young men's work to do. But we're not really

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Speaker 1: offering them a pipeline to get there. We're not offering

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Speaker 1: them a pathway, and we're not offering them models to

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Speaker 1: do so.

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Speaker 2: So what does that look like? How can we help

423
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Speaker 2: How can we help young men in these pipelines? What

424
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Speaker 2: what is the model of masculinity that these young guys

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Speaker 2: can aspire tick?

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about role models. I do not

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Speaker 1: believe that's the panacea here. I'm moving very far away

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Speaker 1: from that. I think just putting another footy player on

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Speaker 1: a pedestal for him to fall off does not do

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Speaker 1: any favors for masculinity. I think I also am moving

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Speaker 1: away from the term masculinity and towards manhood. Yeah, it's iterative,

432
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: it's evolution, it's growth, it's a ongoing state, you know,

433
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 1: it's not like a static. Do you have it or

434
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: do you not?

435
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, what's the difference between

436
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: boyhood and manhood? What are the things that we want

437
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: to develop to grow into manhood.

438
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: I think it's that's kind of the difference between childhood

439
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: and adulthood, and when it comes to being a man,

440
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: I actually think it's about expanding from self to other.

441
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: That's what I think healthy manhood should be, which is

442
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: like the narcissist, which is the child give me ice cream.

443
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 1: I need this, I need that. My needs come first

444
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: to when you move into your mid teens, you get

445
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: to the point where you say, oh, my parents have

446
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings. I might need to respond differently, Oh

447
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: there's a girl over there. I might need to, you know,

448
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: ask for consent. All of these types of things questions

449
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: come into play. And I think that the positive healthy

450
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: manhood is going project outward, look outward, look at everyone

451
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: but yourself, and see how they're responding to you, and

452
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: internalize that rather than what I think currently happens, which

453
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: is this, let's close up shop because I've been told

454
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: that this is the only way to be, and so

455
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: you actually don't take in those beams that are coming

456
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: from the world.

457
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: Any kind of information that might give you a clue

458
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: that what you're doing might not be getting you where

459
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: you want to go. I was saying, it's wrong. But

460
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: if you want this job, this partner, you know, not

461
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: to yelled at to make more money. I don't know,

462
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: maybe it's you, but.

463
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: It's funny because a certain type like you look at goals.

464
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: Goals is the best way from a therapist's perspectives, like

465
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: to get young men to do anything. It's like, what

466
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: do you want to achieve here? And they say, I

467
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: want to make a million bucks by this time, I

468
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: want a girlfriend, etc. All of those things you can

469
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: frame in a way that's like, all right, if you're

470
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: the dickhead who walks into the club, shouldering everyone, demanding

471
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: that seat, asking for a drink, pushing people away, no

472
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: girl is coming up to you, like look at the endgame. Yeah,

473
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: And I think that if we can get to the

474
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: point where where we reframe the idea that nice guys

475
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: finish first, because they do in the end and this

476
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: I now go into schools and I'm like, all right,

477
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: let's talk about because we talk about mannod masculinity, and

478
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: there's always some guy like snickering in the back, and

479
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: I'm not here to police or shame because that's the

480
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: worst way to get behavior to change. So I'm just,

481
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: you know, curious, what's what's going on? And he's like, oh,

482
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: he's a pussy. He was saying this thing about his sister.

483
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, all right, so you think you're the

484
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: alpha or at least everyone, because everyone was cowering around

485
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: this kid, and I just looked him in the eyem like,

486
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: this hierarchy will not hold for you. Do you think

487
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: you're on top? This is a fucking deck of cards.

488
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: You're it's all over. So understanding the long game and

489
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: going to these young guys. You want power, you want privilege,

490
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: you want a partner, whatever it might be. This is

491
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: the shore fire way to have longevity in the game,

492
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: not really wake up at thirty and be like what

493
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: have I done?

494
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: To be an asset to others? To be seen as

495
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: an asset and to be seen as useful to others,

496
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: service gives you value to them and versus to be

497
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 2: seen as like I need others to get what I want. Well,

498
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: others aren't going to help you for very long. You

499
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: might work for a little while that guy leave school,

500
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, there's biggest, scarier people who just got.

501
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: And I didn't learn anything to do that, and I

502
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: don't have any real mates.

503
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: All I know how to do is be combatitive, probably

504
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: because I heard it. But now I'm in a lot

505
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: of trouble.

506
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: But the hurting, the hurting inside, it's like, how do

507
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: you how do you give them access to that in

508
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: a way that's not it's going to be scary. It's

509
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: always going to be scary. But if you can like

510
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: normalize it as the way as you can suggest that

511
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: there is no way to becoming a man without doing

512
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: that work, without feeling those things, without talking to other

513
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: guys about it. I just think that that needs to

514
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: be sold as the norm.

515
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: You know, what are some ways that we can have

516
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: our young men and particularly like if you've been raised

517
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: by a dad who only knows what he knows, but

518
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 2: knows that what he knows probably isn't great, But I

519
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: don't know where to start. Yeah, Like what's the thing

520
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: that a dad or might be able to do for

521
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: that young kid?

522
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: For sure? So you know, John Hate speaks about this

523
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: a lot when he's talking about social media and trying

524
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: to curb screen time. You know, peers are everything, especially

525
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: to young guys. The fear of ostracism is what leads

526
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: them to do bad shit fundamentally, even if it's at

527
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: odds with their desires. They will enact a certain behavior.

528
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: They'll laugh at a sexist joke, they'll beat up the nerd,

529
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, in order to feel like they belong.

530
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: And it's strange because that resentment that they actually feel

531
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: for themselves they put it on others and then shame

532
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: gets externalized and it ends up in this really dangerous

533
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: cycle where they go, I actually hate myself, but I'm

534
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: never going to admit that. I'm just going to keep

535
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: beating the shit out of others. And so what you

536
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: can do is, rather than trying to address this stuff

537
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: your child in isolation, do it with the group. If

538
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: you can get the five other parents who are amenable

539
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: to this, and start at dad's and sons activity of

540
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: some kind, because it norms it then and he's not

541
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: just a weirdo who's like hanging out with his dad

542
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: doing this thing, going out bush or whatever it might be.

543
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: And we don't need to lean into rights of passage

544
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: in the formal sense, but connection is always. Attachment is

545
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: at the core of our human needs. It's all young

546
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: guys want. And so if you can firm that up

547
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: for them and show them that, because they often think, oh,

548
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: if I hang out with my dad, I'm losing something. Else,

549
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: if you can say no, no, no, we're going to

550
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: bring around your mates as well, and we're going to

551
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: find a way to make this restorative and fun and

552
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: whatever else. I just think that that's the way. And

553
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: when you're on those activities, as I said at the start,

554
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: tell your ki that you don't know what's fucking happening.

555
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: Tell them because we could be in our thirties, forties, fifties,

556
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter that we are on the journey with them.

557
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: That I didn't have anxiety or depression. I have it.

558
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: It's a part of me. I'm living with it. I'm

559
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: learning with it. And I went through what you know

560
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: that we do this thing. I went through what you

561
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: went through when I was a teenager, so so much

562
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: past tense. I'm the master now I've overcome these things.

563
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: When in fact you still work, you know, walk into

564
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: a new workplace and you're like a fifteen year old

565
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: in the school yard. Yeah, same thing.

566
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: Here we are, Yeah, let's figure this out.

567
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: The messiness of manhood. Like it's beautiful, you know.

568
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: It is the idea of the peer group thing. And

569
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: this is what I saw in g who she had

570
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: her schoolmates, but then because she was so heavily involved

571
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: in dance school two she went to two dance schools,

572
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: she had this whole other peer group. And it was

573
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: wonderful because I never saw her get caught up in

574
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: any malarkey through fear of well, I don't want to

575
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: be on the outer. It was like, okay, well those

576
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: other guys are going after this thing, and no, no, yeah,

577
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: trying to have that, you know, another peer group outside

578
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: of the main kind of main kind of gang that

579
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: they hang.

580
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: Because you get locked in. You get locked in and

581
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: in a hierarchy, you're that guy. It's the same thing

582
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: with siblings. It's like you can be forty and you

583
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: come home for Christmas and you're all in the same

584
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: role immediately, and the same thing happens.

585
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: With the five guys.

586
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, here's the Alaric and he's this, and

587
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: everyone plays these roles, which is just you have no

588
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: room to move, and that's why you'll always get someone

589
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: who just like fucks off to India and then they

590
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: come back and it's like, oh, we can't talk to

591
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: him anymore because he suddenly suddenly actually evolved or found

592
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: a new part of himself and he doesn't fit into

593
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: our jigsaw puzzle anymore. So I actually like that idea

594
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: of and that's kind of what November actually attempts to do,

595
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: which is I always witness during this month that, like

596
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: the groups of guys who come together for whatever they're yearly,

597
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, crazy, like let's mow lawn mowers for the

598
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: Guinness World Record whatever, they don't actually know each other,

599
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: and it's like they've now got a shared purpose and

600
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: a shared activity and whatever else it might be we

601
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: can talk about, you know, social disconnection and isolation and loneliness,

602
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: which is just the thing that is a part, sadly,

603
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: of masculinity. Really, to become a man is to lose things.

604
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: It's a process of grief, and I think that that's

605
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: something that I believe we can turn around. But at

606
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: the moment, it's like you go from being a five

607
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: year old with an incredible spectrum of emotionality, with wanting

608
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: to be everyone's best friend and you come home from

609
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: Daga every day.

610
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh my god, you're seeing and dance.

611
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: You sing and dance triples, sing and dance and act,

612
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: you wear too too's. You do whatever you want to do.

613
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: And then there are these inflection points where you witness

614
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: the policing, you witness the risk, you witness this shame

615
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: and embarrassment, which is like the DNA of masculinity in Australia,

616
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: and you quarterize parts of yourself, you lesion it, you

617
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: get rid of these beautiful elements, you know. I think

618
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: of it in some ways, in the same way the

619
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: lots of gay guys have to be in the closet

620
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time. There are just different

621
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: different closets, you know. And it's not about these groups,

622
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: these identities. It's about your true self, your authentic self.

623
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: And I think that the mask that we wear is

624
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: so at odds with our authentic self. And if you

625
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: look back, and I think so many parents are grieving

626
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: when they watch their sun go from five to ten

627
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: to fifteen. And it's as if that this is a

628
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: natural process. Because young women go through something similar, they

629
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: become snarky, etc. But they don't they actually seem to

630
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: expand their world, and lots of young guys it narrows.

631
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: I don't think that that is how it used to be,

632
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: and I don't think it's necessary.

633
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: When I was at the North of Vocas Surf Club,

634
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: a Voca Beach surf club with Heggy after a storytelling

635
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: show we did up there, they have the photos all

636
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: around the walls and it looks like it was November

637
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: all year round. Like it's like just just drawing with

638
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 2: like slabs, pectrals, like huge surf boats. There's no fucking

639
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: clippers on their chest or anything. It's just like good

640
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: black hair everything. And Heggy pointed at it. He goes,

641
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: men like that used to bring people together, and it

642
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: really struck me, really really struck me. Is that's what

643
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: that's what manhood was? Was I am? Yes, I am

644
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: a man. I mean, social roles are very clear, far

645
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: more clearly defined. And at a time where everyone had

646
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: a mustache all year round, so there was you know,

647
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: I am protector from a provider. This is what my

648
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: role is here and this is what I do. I

649
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: know where my duty starts and stops. And it was,

650
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: you know, a thing that had its benefits, had its

651
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: side effects. But when where's the lines? Now, where's the role?

652
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: I unless than my partner, you know, I don't know.

653
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: My kid wants me to call them a non specific name.

654
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do now.

655
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: But this is the idea that flux is bad. And

656
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: I think that you know, this gender reckoning of like

657
00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: modern and traditional ideologies clashing is frightening. And so everyone

658
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: returns to what they know, what they've seen, as if

659
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: that was always in our best interests. It wasn't. We

660
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: look at our dads or our grandfathers, and we're like,

661
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: there are parts of this that I want, I want

662
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: to take on, and there is plenty that I want

663
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: to end with me. And I think we lose walk

664
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: in the door, y table now, yeah.

665
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: Food table now? Cigarette? You shut up, you shut up,

666
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 2: you shut up. I don't want to hear it.

667
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: Let me talk about my day.

668
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: Whiskey bed, Yeah, someone else put them to bed. Yeah,

669
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: that was it.

670
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. My grandma's now like, oh, my brother's got to

671
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: two girls. And she's like, oh my god, you're such

672
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: a active father because he cooks and he and she

673
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: literally cannot conceptualize it. And that's to say that these

674
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: roles are so deeply ingrained that plenty of women are like, oh,

675
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: this is where the tradwife movement has come from, you know,

676
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: in so many ways. And so I think that we

677
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: can get to a point where you don't have to throw.

678
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: Out the baby with the bathwater.

679
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: It is good to have roles and responsibilities, and there

680
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: are these core elements of altruism and service and connection

681
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: and finding ways to have this idea of growth and

682
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: self development. They don't need to be only tied to masculinity.

683
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: Plenty of women do it. They do it in whatever

684
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: way they see fit. But I do think that there

685
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: has to be a twenty first century where we say

686
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: the modern man looks different, feels different, acts different, and

687
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: still feels still feels like a man, still looks like

688
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: a man, and is able to show up in whatever

689
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,919
Speaker 1: way he sees fit.

690
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 2: There was a moment at the end of the State

691
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: of Origin this year which queens another one, and rightly so,

692
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: they're amazing when Cameron Monster, who lost his father ten

693
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: days I think before the game the second game, and

694
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: you can see Monster and Slater approach each other, and

695
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: these men hug and they both start crying, and they

696
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: just let this they didn't cut away. They let this

697
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: frame happen. Here's this guy who just played eighty minutes

698
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: of full terrifyingly violent football, right, and another man who

699
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: knows exactly what that is, and his body is probably

700
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 2: full quarterzone, right, the only reason can get out of bed.

701
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: And they're holding each other and crying, and not one

702
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 2: person was like oh yeah, a pit of emotion there,

703
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: but like everyone was like there, it is, like that's

704
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. It's a big moment and it

705
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 2: was cool and I kind of really like that that

706
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: we are at a place now where not feel a shame,

707
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: not trying to hide faces from the camera, not feel

708
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: that we can't do it, but just be I thought

709
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: that was a freaking brilliant thing, Like for all the

710
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: things we're talking about, bit of frightening at that moment.

711
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: Was like, man, I'm glad that happened.

712
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am deeply optimistic about where things are heading.

713
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: Despite the the.

714
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: Winds you know that are that are hitting us, that

715
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: are actually not young men's fault. They didn't create them.

716
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: This is this is society kind of pinning there. But

717
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: what you're talking about there is like the the spectrum

718
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: of condoned behavior that is slowly opening up. You know,

719
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: Federer cried every time Obama cried, Like within sport and grief,

720
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: there are certain and I think we're starting to open

721
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: that up. But then you look at like Mitch Brown,

722
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: who's a lovely guy. I've been hanging out with him,

723
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: you know, came out as the first openly by ex

724
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: player in the AFL, and he copped it. He copped it.

725
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: So I think that we need to It's two truths,

726
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: that we are making progress and that we have a

727
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: deeply ingrained discomfort with the idea that there are multiple

728
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: ways of being, the idea that masculinity can evolve, can

729
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: look different, and that we're not telling you there's anything

730
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: wrong with you, Macha sitting at home. This isn't a threat.

731
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: This is an invitation. This is an invitation to come

732
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: and join join the brotherhood of Firstly, we're going to

733
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: fucking live longer. Yes, you're going to not you know,

734
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: have as many divorces. It's not going to be as violent,

735
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: you're not going to drink as much. Your kids are

736
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: actually going to talk to you. There's not a lot

737
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: of downside here, Like if you're not making as much.

738
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: You can talk to your wife about it and you

739
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: can actually like come up with a plan rather than

740
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: just internalize it all and you know, freak out. I

741
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: just think that, as with anything, the same thing with feminism.

742
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. We are not doing a good enough

743
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: marketing job here. What do you want? We're going to

744
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: help you get there.

745
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: I just just on sport. There's one more thing. I

746
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: can't remember sname. He's an Australian college basketball player. There

747
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: was a press conference.

748
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: He's an NFL player, Nebraska NFL player.

749
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 2: That's why he's homesick NFL player And they just won

750
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: the game and he's doing the press conference and they

751
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: asked him and he goes to answer the question and

752
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: he just bursts into tears and he's unable to speak,

753
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 2: and then he goes but yeah, that's about it. Any

754
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: of the questions.

755
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: He just like like he was like and didn't say

756
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: sorry over again. He didn't explain that didn't that one.

757
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: That one was a new look at me, mate. I'm

758
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: in goosebumps because he's like and he was he was balling.

759
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: This wasn't like snot bubbles like he was like, I

760
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: love my mum and dad and I and yeah, cool, yeah,

761
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: well thanks for hearing, thanks for being here, guys. Norris.

762
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: It was a completely that was his answer.

763
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: I got a call from CNN that morning and they

764
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: were like, we'd like to talk to an Australian about

765
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: Australian emotionality amongst men. And they're like, this is incredible,

766
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: this is an Australian thing. And I was like, you

767
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: don't understand, like that is such an outlier, but it

768
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: breaks the molden again. It tells people. But that's a

769
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: really beautiful way of role modeling. He doesn't need to

770
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: be a role model. He doesn't need to be the guy.

771
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: His behavior is the thing, and that's in the doing,

772
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: in the showing, and the same way that fathering is

773
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: about the ing. It's about the verbing. It's about the doing.

774
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: It's not about like, oh, dad's got a good job

775
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: and I've got this thing in the back of my

776
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: head of like he's my hero versus he shows up,

777
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: he does the fucking dishes, he does the nappies, whatever

778
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: it might be, and he doesn't say anything about it,

779
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: like that's the doing, and that is how you pass

780
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: down positive manhood to your kids.

781
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: When I saw that clip. My first response was like,

782
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: there's a mom and dad who ace job like gold medal.

783
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: Well done.

784
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: That is that he feels held, he feels safe enough

785
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: to actually be himself.

786
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: Just need to take a quick break from Dr Zach.

787
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Just before we get back to

788
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: Doctor Zach, let me just take a moment to say

789
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: to you. The YouTube channel for story Club is finally live.

790
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: I tried to put it on substack, but that seemed

791
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 2: like a hard conversation for people to figure out. It's

792
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: another thing to subscribe to. So we've got six stories

793
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: that are up there right now, new stories coming every week,

794
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: and I couldn't be more happy. The next story Club

795
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: show is probably going to be about February. But if

796
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: you subscribe to that channel and you get on it,

797
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: you get new stories every single week. Speaking of subscription,

798
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: if you like this show, if this show is useful

799
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: to you, please subscribe to it, follow it, like it,

800
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: rate it, comment it, tell a friend it really helps us.

801
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: Let's get back to Doctor Zach. And this is the

802
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: point where you are, what less than two months away

803
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 2: from having a child. What are you trying to approach

804
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: fatherhood with? Damn?

805
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: It's funny how when it comes back to me. If

806
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: I tell someone I'm about to have a kid, it

807
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: doesn't resonate. Trust me, someone says it to me, I'm like,

808
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: is this about to happen? Is this Yes?

809
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 2: This is the part you get to go. I was

810
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: back on meds by the time I was where you are, Yeah,

811
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: because this is often when men go oh fuck, it's

812
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: it's really happening, and that there's nothing you can do

813
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: about it. It's on You're going to be there.

814
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to be that. I'm going to be there.

815
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: I'm I'm trying to.

816
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 1: I've had so many people and I spoke with Ramsey say,

817
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, incredible distinguished gentlemen's ride partners with November Best Mustache,

818
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: Best Motorbike, and he is just so lovely and his

819
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: head the other day is like any expectation you have

820
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: been it now, nothing will happen that you expect or

821
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: it will just you know, it'll blossom in beautiful ways

822
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: and you know, be a ship storm in others. I'm

823
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: trying to not. I think it's really hard. My wife

824
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: is a psychologist as well. Like the external pressure that

825
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: we're going to have.

826
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: This, you guys must be great when you argue. Oh man,

827
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying.

828
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I literally never do that. No, I'm

829
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: more of a coach. I'm like, this is how you're

830
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: fighting with me, but this is what's possible.

831
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: Why don't we go here?

832
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: No, we don't do any of that, just slammer.

833
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: Do not going to get everyone.

834
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: Everyone's the fucking same, But that that idea that we're

835
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: going to be more evolved. Like I think knowledge is

836
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: powered definitely to a certain extent. It's also when I

837
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: know what I need to do or how I need

838
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: to respond, and I don't have the energy or the

839
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: patience to do so, the knowledge is not necessarily going

840
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: to be that useful. But when it comes to being

841
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: a dad, I love the I love the thought of

842
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: like reprioritization. I love I'm already feeling it now the

843
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: third trimester where like third floor walk up, I'm like

844
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: building a chair so that cats can sit halfway up.

845
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: And that idea of how I show up what my

846
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: role is and leaning into things that have really never

847
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 1: been of interest to me, like patience, Like impatience has

848
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: gotten me where I am being a hustler, working like

849
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: a dog meeting everyone, saying yes to every trip, every podcast,

850
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: every everything, and now to go stability and sameness, monotony

851
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: is beauty is shit scary, but I'm up for it

852
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: for sure, and so I think that I'm most looking

853
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: forward to. I'm like the reason I am psychologists because

854
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with human behavior. I'm like, why do they

855
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: do that? Why? And you know it's like obsohumor, but

856
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: and some people find it fucking annoying. But my therapist

857
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: said to me, the first five years of this kid's

858
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: life is like your sweet spot because you can tell

859
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: him everything, and you know they get later on and

860
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: then I'm going to listen to you. But that idea

861
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: of like molding life is the greatest thing that I

862
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: could ever imagine, let alone. I'm grappling with the fact

863
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: that bringing up, you know, I've got two nieces, that

864
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: idea of like caring and nurturing for a young girl

865
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: feels much more natural to me. I've never felt that

866
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: that type of like soft love for another man, and

867
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: so to be able to be reparented by my own

868
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: child and be able to see that I can love

869
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: a man. I love my mates, but it's it's going

870
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: to be a very different like ride or die situation,

871
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: and I'm fully up for everything just being exploded like

872
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: that sounds fun to me.

873
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: Knowing what I know about, you know, I used to

874
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: work on the on the board at Saying Australia and

875
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 2: knowing how dangerous it is to be a young man

876
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: in Australia. When I found out we're having a boy,

877
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: I really struggled because I, you know, I've seen fucking

878
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: terrible pub violence. You know, I've I've seen you know,

879
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: people and end up they just make one dumb decision

880
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: and then you know that's it. I don't see them

881
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: again as terrifying things that are completely beyond your control,

882
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 2: beyond out of your control. Knowing what you know about

883
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, developmental psychology and it's mental health and things

884
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: that happened in schools and stuff like that. Is there

885
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 2: a part of you that's like, oh, just accepting that

886
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: I've got no control of it, or is it part

887
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: of you is like oh no, no, I don't exactly why

888
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: he like, where are you?

889
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's funny because when we found out the gender,

890
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: that's very much a time where I think it becomes

891
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: real and you're like, oh my God, there's a thing

892
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: and it's you.

893
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: Know, when you see the blue smoke coming off the burnout,

894
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: that's when you know.

895
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: You know me, I'm real big on gender reveals too.

896
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: The basketball it exploded, but the cast said, it's so funny,

897
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: just in line with what you're saying. She goes to me, Oh,

898
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: she just breathed a sigh of relief, and she goes, Oh,

899
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: he's going to be okay because her belief system is

900
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: that men just get by Wow, that the way in

901
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: which they move through the world is is fast, safer.

902
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: For me, I'm like, what the fuck have you seen

903
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: the stats? And I understand from like a day to

904
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: day basis, you know, we see, but from a decision

905
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: making internalized situation, girls live longer, they make better decisions

906
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: long term, their health is better, their education, you know,

907
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: the better at tself.

908
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: I think your wife has been in the boot of

909
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: an airborne and as the six two six out the

910
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: back of Bell Bowie, you know, and with eight other

911
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 2: dudes in that car. Because it was a great idea.

912
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: She said to me, I just don't want him to

913
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: jump off some high cliff somewhere.

914
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 2: That's that's the first thing he's going to do.

915
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: I know, I was like, Mat, that is all I did.

916
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: It is the best thing ever. But I think that

917
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: I am I really don't want to be that guy

918
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: who knows something and so goes We're going to turn

919
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: off all of these parts of you can't possibly go

920
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: and do all of those things. But then he doesn't

921
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: actually get socialized. And risk is important. But if I

922
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 1: can actually do it with him, I think that that

923
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: that's where it's at. Like having the physicality going and

924
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: doing the things whatever. I'm pretty excited about that. I

925
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: am concerned about the socialization process. I think like I

926
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: think I will inject myself, as I kind of said,

927
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,479
Speaker 1: with other dads and try and show up in a

928
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: hands on way to show them what you know, I

929
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: think is possible. But the way in which they interact

930
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: is fundamentally out of my control. And he's going to

931
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: do dumb shit like we did dumb shit. Of course,

932
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: that's how you learn it, but it's how you can

933
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: minimize the really crazy stuff.

934
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: When I see the other dads that Wolf Coast to

935
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: school with and the other dads that I'm around, Dad's

936
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: pretty switched on, you know, and so the hope I

937
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: guess that I would have for both that kids is

938
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 2: that the cohort of kids that are coming up now

939
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: they've been raised in response to all the stuff that

940
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: you have been doing research around for kids who are

941
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: now fifteen, sixteen or seventeen eighteen. But the fathers who

942
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: are raising their young boys now like well, fuck no,

943
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 2: I don't want that. And as there are hands on they

944
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: are in there Halloween the other night at our joint.

945
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 2: We live in one of the ones petersh and ones

946
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: in Mossman. Yeah, Like there's some streets that are just

947
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 2: bon because we live one of those streets. Like dads

948
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 2: who are like another Sarja boy with their son or

949
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: with their daughter, like they are in the k pop

950
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: they're in the gear. They're there and to be honest,

951
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: it's good for my mental health as well. It's great

952
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: to be out there with our lads and kind of go,

953
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: oh great, it's not just me. Yeah, it's wold, isn't it.

954
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 2: Because there's no dad's groups. There's heaps of others groups.

955
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: There's no dad's growing on we started. That's something I'll

956
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: probably aim to blow up. But I think that what

957
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: you're talking about there is like the you know the

958
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 2: zero to seven year old kids, dads are showing up.

959
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that.

960
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: The issue is that, because you know, paternally leave is

961
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: getting better, everyone's taking time at the start, it's really

962
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: important time. But then they pull back twelve to eighteen,

963
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: and that's actually when they need far more time. Like

964
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: you should take paternity leave. You should take six months

965
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: of leave when they're thirteen fourteen and go and spend

966
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 1: time with them, take the one a road trip, whatever

967
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: it might be, because that's when identity development happens in

968
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: a really different way. That's when the socialization happens, and

969
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: that's when parents pull out. They go, Nah, this is

970
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: too hectic, you're too moody. The screen can do it

971
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: for you. Your teachers can do it for you, and

972
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: they disengage. If we can get that same zero to

973
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: five for fifteen to twenty, we'd have a different world.

974
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: There's a line that was one of my mates, Stevie

975
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 2: told me. He said to me, oh, yeah, they're going

976
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: to ignore you. You have to be there for them

977
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: to ignore. You have to be the edge, you have

978
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: to be the boundary. And it sucks because you never

979
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: loved anyone like that and they don't want a barrier.

980
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 2: And I understand where people go okay, then fuck yeah

981
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: and they just leave. I get that, but it's really

982
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: hard to take it in the face opposite action. But

983
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 2: that's the job.

984
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: The fundamentally, that's the job. But also it's like, that's

985
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: what we say always in my member, like the check

986
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: in is the most important thing, and we we underestimate

987
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: what the check in looks like. It's always like, oh,

988
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: I sent him message to him, he didn't respond, and

989
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: I was like, when did you last year from him?

990
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: Then he's like, oh, three months ago, and I'm like, no,

991
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: when did you misunderstand? The consistency is key. You must

992
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: be able to understand that that rejection of him not

993
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: responding to you, that doesn't tell you anything about yourself.

994
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: That's nothing that you need to internalize about having failed

995
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: what you're doing in the same way that you're showing

996
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: up at dinner and they're not looking in the eye,

997
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: they're not talking or responding to you. Because down the line,

998
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: when they've got some sinister fucking guy online freaking them out,

999
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: ready to take their money and send nudes whatever it

1000
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: might be, they know that you're there. That night, in

1001
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: the same way that your mate who is suicidal and

1002
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: is sitting at home on his own, but you've sent

1003
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: him a message every week at a Thursday morning. He

1004
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: knows it's coming, and this time he's going to tell

1005
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: you I'm not all right. Yeah, just I don't know

1006
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: when the social fabric fell away and we had needs

1007
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: based communication don't show up in moments of crisis. In

1008
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: the same way, I don't want to see you as

1009
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: a therapist when you can't get out of bed. I will,

1010
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: and you end up always doing that crisis intervention. But

1011
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: I would rather see you when you're well. I want

1012
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: to see my mates when they're well, and I want

1013
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: to tell them when shit hits a fan, I got you.

1014
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: And you need to do the same thing with kids consistently,

1015
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: because that's where they get this understanding that they have

1016
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 1: an emotional crutch that they can lean on when they

1017
00:55:59,400 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: need it.

1018
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: Knowing what you know about the state of mental health

1019
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 2: in Australia, it means mental health in Australia. Are you optimistic?

1020
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: I really do think that we're on the verge of

1021
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: a revolution because and that requires that we stop talking

1022
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: about young guys and start talking with them. So, for instance,

1023
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: now finally November, we've got a Youth Advisory Council a YAK.

1024
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: Once a month we're going to meet with them. We're

1025
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: going to say we're doing this, what do you reckon?

1026
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: And they say that sucks. That's not how we talk,

1027
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: that's not the way to do things. I am very

1028
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: optimistic that if we walk around our neighborhoods, dads are

1029
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 1: doing the pickup, you know, dads are cooking. Like we're

1030
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: shifting some of these norms. It's just consistency. It's just

1031
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: making sure that we do this day in and day out,

1032
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: and that we we do the modeling, and that we

1033
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: also talk about it more broadly with our mates. I

1034
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: don't think that like you sit around at the pub

1035
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: and the bantery is awesome. This is the thing I

1036
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: don't want to get rid of it. The other day

1037
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: I went away with my mates for a weekend, a

1038
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: dad's stag, if you will. And the ability to move

1039
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: so quickly between the light and the dark, I think

1040
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,959
Speaker 1: is the greatest thing about like Australian masculinity. Being able

1041
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: to move from a guy who's just lost his dad

1042
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: and then be able to make jokes ten minutes later

1043
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: and then come back to it. We're not just going

1044
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: to leave him hanging because we know it's raw, but

1045
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: he needs to look away. And I think that the

1046
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: more we can have those types of conversations, I don't

1047
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: want these dark mental health conversations in a corner where

1048
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: it's like, what do you need? How are we going

1049
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: to do it? In the same way that we're having

1050
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: every other chat, and you just filter it through. And

1051
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: so I've got faith that guys want to be a

1052
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: part of a movement for change. They're not happy with

1053
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: how things are, and I just hope that we have

1054
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: that precipice where things topple over and they go I'm

1055
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: not going to blame everyone else for my problems. I'm

1056
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: going to like grab the ball by the horns and

1057
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: go I got this. I can do something different.

1058
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: Just before we go, you mentioned something about I just

1059
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: would like to kind of leave a bit on this,

1060
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 2: the idea of manhood being a reversal of from the

1061
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: self to the other. What are some qualities, what are

1062
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 2: some what are the verbs that that looks like for

1063
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: people so they can kind of get their head around

1064
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 2: what that is like in reality.

1065
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about showing up. It's about cooking, it's about cleaning,

1066
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: but it's about it's about crying because someone else is hurt,

1067
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: not just because you're hurt, you know. It's about sitting

1068
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: with your kid in the pain and not trying to

1069
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: fix it. It's about realizing that you don't need to

1070
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: suffer in order to be the protector and provider. And

1071
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: I think that that's where we've lost sight of what

1072
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: masculinity can and should be. Rather than going, oh, no,

1073
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: I've got to look after my family, and therefore I'm

1074
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: not going to look after myself because going to see

1075
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 1: a therapist is money that could go to rent, or

1076
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: is time that could go to my job, whatever it

1077
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: might be. Instead realizing that self destruction is at odds

1078
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: with the other and that you don't need to put

1079
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: yourself first. That's not what we're asking for. It's just

1080
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: respecting self in order to value others. And I think

1081
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: that lots of go eyes go oh. If I just

1082
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: push my own needs down, that's that's good manhood. My

1083
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: own emotions, my own needs, my own you know, thoughts

1084
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: and feelings. If I push those down, then others won't suffer.

1085
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: But it bleeds out of you.

1086
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can stick it out for a while, but

1087
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: eventually that court us all, well, there's a reason why

1088
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: heart diseases and number one killer in Australia. I know

1089
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: we spoke a lot about mental health, but like there's

1090
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: there's that and so many other things that you eat.

1091
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: Your feelings, you drink like shit, like all of this stuff.

1092
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: It just it externalizes because you haven't you haven't listened

1093
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: to it, you haven't valued it, you haven't spoken about it.

1094
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: So I don't want these warm and fuzzy chats, you know,

1095
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: like why we can have hard hitting, real manly fucking

1096
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: conversations about stuff that go I need this. Are going

1097
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: to do this so that next weekend when my wife

1098
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: goes away, I'm actually not going to fall apart when

1099
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: my kids ask me what's up?

1100
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: And I know this is a long conversation that's happened

1101
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 2: all around the two guys with real bum fluff mustaches.

1102
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: But we should have done this at the end of

1103
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: the month.

1104
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 2: This, yeah, but no, this is too late. Then I

1105
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: think this is the this is the real brilliance of

1106
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: what was it? The GRONI and yeah, the Trent and

1107
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 2: I can't remember the other men founders. Oh, this is

1108
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: silly thing going on with this person standing in front

1109
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 2: of me, and I asked him the question and they say, oh,

1110
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 2: it's this and and and now you're there, and it's.

1111
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: It's teleportation, like it gets you there so quickly, and

1112
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: it's it's the banter. It's that light and dark. It's like, oh,

1113
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: here's this dumb thing. Let's talk about male suicide like

1114
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: it's a it's a wild thing to walk into community

1115
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: events and have these constantly fluctuating conversations. It's incredible. Everyone's

1116
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: attempted to model it, they've all failed. We've got the

1117
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: good shit going and we're just going to keep rolling

1118
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: because this is this is the issue of our times. Yeah,

1119
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it.

1120
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 2: I'm so stoked that you're gonna have a baby, mate,

1121
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: it's the best thing ever.

1122
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: I'll bring him next year, get some sort of sessions

1123
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 1: in it.

1124
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 2: Suple of weeks. Yeah, pretty soon, the most exciting thing

1125
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: in the universe will be in your house and you

1126
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 2: really won't want to go anywhere because it's like, one, no,

1127
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: look this is here, Look at this is it's amazing.

1128
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe we should give these thirteen year olds just

1129
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: newborns to look out instead of screens.

1130
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: Oh, we did that have a badgel episode. Once it

1131
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 2: was real they were battery operated, they weed and pood. Yeah,

1132
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: it was pretty fun. Thanks for coming in, Zach. Thanks

1133
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 2: having me. That was doctor Zach Seidler, the Global director

1134
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: of Men's Health Research in November and soon to be

1135
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 2: dad of ZEUS. I do like that. I do like

1136
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: that very much. I don't know if they're going to

1137
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: stick with zous. We call Warfy Chickpea. He didn't have

1138
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: a name for first three days. Yeah, sometimes you don't

1139
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 2: know what their names are until they go. You go, oh,

1140
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 2: you're a wolfgang. It was pretty obvious. If you want

1141
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 2: to support the work that Zach does, find someone you

1142
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 2: know that's trying to grow a mustache and give them

1143
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 2: some money. That's pretty much. Yet we've ever do enormous

1144
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: things with the money, as you heard me describing in

1145
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: that conversation, as far as bang for buck when charities go.

1146
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 2: November are one of the greatest of the planet, and

1147
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 2: they've changed the way research medical research has done, particularly

1148
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 2: around prostect cancer, and they're changing it in the way

1149
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: that men's mental health is being researched. You can dinate

1150
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 2: to me. I'll put the link in the show notes.

1151
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 2: However you do. Thank you for your support. We'll see

1152
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 2: you on Monday.