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Speaker 1: Doctor Lillian Najad, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Paul.

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Speaker 1: So you are a clinical psychologist. Tell me how did

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Speaker 1: you get into that? What was what first spiked your interest.

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Speaker 3: In doing it?

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Speaker 1: Because it's a long old road of study, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: Probably nine or ten years actually in total. Well, it's

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Speaker 2: an interesting story. I think my choice was based on lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: surprisingly enough, so I went you might recognize my accent

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Speaker 2: as being American. So I went to university in the States,

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Speaker 2: and I was on a path towards law school, and

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Speaker 2: I really do think my mind's probably geared towards that.

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Speaker 2: But when I was in I was doing psychology as

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Speaker 2: a major, and I got to do some really interesting

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Speaker 2: projects like go to the UK and study children, and

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Speaker 2: I got to really see how my psychology professors lived

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Speaker 2: and what their lives were like, and what their environment

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Speaker 2: working environment was like. And it really appealed to me.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm like, do I want to spend my

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Speaker 2: life reading law books in the library, or do I

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Speaker 2: want to be on a campus full of vibrant learners

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Speaker 2: and teach people things and have a career that had

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Speaker 2: a lot of variety in a beautiful environment as well.

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Speaker 2: So actually that's so I started going down the path

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Speaker 2: of psychology instead, and then I ended up moving to

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Speaker 2: Australia and doing my postgraduate education here, so it was

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Speaker 2: like a master's in PhD com buying program. And during

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Speaker 2: the course of that was when I discovered that I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed doing the clinical work and that probably academic

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Speaker 2: life well it's very different here anyway, so I wasn't

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Speaker 2: going to have what I was envisioning anyway. But it

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Speaker 2: turned out that I really enjoyed doing the direct clinical

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Speaker 2: work and seeing that process of change that people go

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Speaker 2: through in that space. So that's why I continued to

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Speaker 2: do that for my career for the most part.

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Speaker 1: So you went down the road of practitioner rather than

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Speaker 1: academic I did.

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Speaker 2: I did experiment with academia for a few years in

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Speaker 2: the middle of my career just to check that I

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Speaker 2: did the right thing, and I enjoyed my time as

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Speaker 2: an academic and lecturer, but I really prefer the direct

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Speaker 2: clinical work and everything that comes with that.

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Speaker 1: So let me get throw some statistics at you and

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Speaker 1: I want to get your opinion, so we know that

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Speaker 1: right now. The Cochran Australia Review showed that one in

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Speaker 1: seven Aussies, one in e It Brits, one in the

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Speaker 1: Kiwi's and I think from memory in the States is

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Speaker 1: about to seem are on antidepressants like one in seven

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Speaker 1: to one in eight of US and in Australia where

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Speaker 1: the second highest consumers of antidepressants in the OECD countries.

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Speaker 3: What is going on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like a lot, and it is a lot.

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Speaker 2: I think part of what's going on is that we

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Speaker 2: saw a massive spike in anxiety and depression during and

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Speaker 2: after the pandemic, so a lot more people were experiencing

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Speaker 2: significant stress. And often what happens when people do experience

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Speaker 2: those kinds of symptoms as they go see their general

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Speaker 2: practitioner for help, and which is what you want them

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Speaker 2: to do. But what can happen sometimes is medications can

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Speaker 2: be used as a first line intervention, and sometimes that's appropriate.

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Speaker 2: Most of the time that's appropriate alongside therapy, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: only therapy is necessary. Really just depends on what the

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Speaker 2: person's presenting with. Generally, the clinical guidelines talk about depression

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Speaker 2: treatment sort of best practice is therapy alongside an antidepressant potentially,

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Speaker 2: whereas anxiety disorders are sometimes often sometimes and maybe often

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Speaker 2: now treated with antidepressants as well. That's not necessarily the

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Speaker 2: first line of treatment for an anxiety disorder. Generally, psychological

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Speaker 2: therapy can really assist on its own with most anxiety disorders.

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Speaker 2: So potentially there might be more medication being used than

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Speaker 2: is needed. But at the same time, we definitely see

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Speaker 2: that more and more people are experiencings psychological distress, and

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Speaker 2: that's maybe partly due to what we went through a

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Speaker 2: few years ago, and it hasn't completely alleviated yet. But

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Speaker 2: also there's a number of factors that are kind of

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Speaker 2: impacting us in society and just in our daily lives

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Speaker 2: that are causing people to feel more anxious and more

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Speaker 2: depressed and experiencing things like burnout as well and having

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Speaker 2: trouble sleeping, and those are kind of like the top

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Speaker 2: the top things that are concerning people at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think we will do definitely a deep

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Speaker 1: dive into those things. I think a massive contribution to this.

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Speaker 1: So there's two There's two things. Number one, eighty five

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Speaker 1: percent of psychiatric medication in this country is prescribed by

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Speaker 1: non psychiatric doctors, which I find absolutely bonkers. And as

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Speaker 1: you said, but I think with the pandemic, I think

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Speaker 1: what it did with such a shortage of psychologists, the

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Speaker 1: default then just became to go on an antidepressant for

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Speaker 1: both depression and anxiety because there was just such a

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Speaker 1: shortage of psychologists.

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Speaker 2: And psychiatrists yes.

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Speaker 3: And psychiatrists yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then when people are in that, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: know not the withdrawal effects when you try to come

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Speaker 1: off are pretty horrendous. We won't do a deep dive

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Speaker 1: in this because I'm going to talk to doctor Mark

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Speaker 1: Horowitz about that, because he's a real expert on this

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Speaker 1: and he's written the Maudesley d prescribing guidelines.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's of the viewers.

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Speaker 1: Several are that about fifty percent of people who are

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Speaker 1: on these medications could get off them with GP help

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Speaker 1: or with other assistants. But I think what also plays

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Speaker 1: into this that nobody talks about is that number one,

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Speaker 1: only twenty percent of Australians hit the recommended guidelines for

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Speaker 1: physical activity. And we know that that is massive, like

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Speaker 1: exercise is a more effective treatment for depression than antidepressants

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Speaker 1: for mindor depression. But also I think the ultra processed

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Speaker 1: food consumption in this country is crazy. We are in

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Speaker 1: the top six in the world. Those other companies that

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Speaker 1: I talked about Australia and New Zealand are sorry in UK,

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Speaker 1: New Zealand and the US are all in the top

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Speaker 1: six of the world. And you know this is not

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Speaker 1: your area, so you probably haven't seen it. But very

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Speaker 1: recently there was an Umbrella review, a review of systematic

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Speaker 1: reviews published on ultraprocessed foods and find class one convincing

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Speaker 1: evidence that increasing ultra processed foods increase the risk of

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Speaker 1: anxiety about forty eight percent, to common mental health disorders

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Speaker 1: by fifty three percent. Right, you take those two, You

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Speaker 1: take the fact that we're spending a shitload of time

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Speaker 1: on screens, especially use absolutely that is then then interfering

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Speaker 1: with sleep, and we know that sleep deprivation in and

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Speaker 1: of itself can cause anxiety and depression or can can

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Speaker 1: massively increase your risk. For me, when you take our

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Speaker 1: lifestyle combined with eating shit food, not sleeping well, too

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Speaker 1: much time on screens, and not exercising, I don't think

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Speaker 1: he can expect to be of good mental health if

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Speaker 1: not your lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you have to have the basics covered to

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Speaker 2: reduce your vulnerability to stress, to chronic stress to challenges

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Speaker 2: to psychological stress. And even though it's basic, right, these

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Speaker 2: are just foundational things everybody knows, like the five things right, nutrition,

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Speaker 2: physical activities, social connection, relaxation, and sleep. You know, we

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Speaker 2: need these things to keep us well. But as you say,

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Speaker 2: they can also be used as interventions, you know. Often.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because I have I remember seeing a client

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Speaker 2: a long time ago, and she was coming in for

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Speaker 2: anxiety and I was out, you know, doing the normal

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Speaker 2: assessment that you do with someone and asking her the questions,

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Speaker 2: and I usually ask a about substance use and abuse

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Speaker 2: as part of that, and there wasn't really any alcohol

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Speaker 2: use or anything like that. The next time I saw her,

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Speaker 2: I remembered I forgot to ask about smoking and coffee,

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Speaker 2: and so I asked her about that and turned out

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Speaker 2: she was smoking I think three packs of cigarettes a

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Speaker 2: day and having eight cups of coffee before she even

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Speaker 2: left the house in the morning. Cops, Yeah, eight and

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Speaker 2: like maybe twenty five total a day. So jumping Jesus exactly.

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Speaker 2: So if I hadn't asked that question for those questions,

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Speaker 2: I would have been treating anxiety and it wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been really doing anything, because I the main to start

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Speaker 2: with really needs to be let's reduce these stimulants in

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Speaker 2: your system which were astronomical, Like, no one's going to

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Speaker 2: be able to function well or sleep well or manage

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Speaker 2: their anxiety under those conditions. So it is really important

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Speaker 2: to assess those factors as well and encourage people to

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Speaker 2: make those basic foundational changes when you're treating anxiety, depression,

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Speaker 2: or any other kind of mental health condition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: Look, you specialize, and I mean you do lots of

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Speaker 1: different stuff, but one of the things that you specialize

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Speaker 1: in is anxiety disorders, which we know is increasing and

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Speaker 1: particularly amongst teenage girls. And we say particularly from social

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Speaker 1: media coming in and the smartphone. I think when they

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Speaker 1: came in at twenty and ten, Like the anxiety rioates,

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Speaker 1: the self harm rates, the suicide riots amongst teenage girls

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Speaker 1: went crazy boys increased, but nowhere the year as much

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Speaker 1: as teenage girls. Are you seeing similar things in your

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Speaker 1: practice that there's more and more teenage girls coming to

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Speaker 1: you and presenting with anxiety.

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Speaker 2: I generally see people who are eighteen and over. However,

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Speaker 2: I am I do inform myself of what's actually going

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Speaker 2: on amongst the youth population, and I do see young

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Speaker 2: women who are eighteen, nineteen, twenty twenty one, so.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: I think the status seventeen percent of Australians have experienced

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Speaker 2: and anxiety to sort in the last twelve months, and like

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Speaker 2: you said, among certain groups it's much higher. And among

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Speaker 2: women in general it's always been higher than among men.

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Speaker 2: So it actually makes us that among girls it would

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Speaker 2: be higher than boys. But it's interesting that it's spiking

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Speaker 2: even more so, and possibly part of the reason for

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Speaker 2: that is the impact of social media and the way

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Speaker 2: that women are treated on social media is quite different

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Speaker 2: to how men may experience it, which could potentially cause

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Speaker 2: not just anxiety, but a whole other, whole range of

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Speaker 2: other issues. But certainly, yes, it's a problem.

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Speaker 1: I've got another little little theory which I think contributes

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Speaker 1: to this, right, and it's an area that you're familiar with,

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Speaker 1: which is workplace, Bernard. So there's been a number of

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Speaker 1: studies because I was diving into this for my PhD,

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Speaker 1: so a number of studies that have shown and these

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Speaker 1: are studies that follow people over a couple of years

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Speaker 1: and do fMRI studies of their brand and ask them

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Speaker 1: about the amount of stress in their life and then

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Speaker 1: reimage their brands. And what they've seen from these studies

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Speaker 1: is that people who report significant and continuous workplace stress,

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Speaker 1: we see significant structural and functional changes in the brain.

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Speaker 1: So there are Migdala's hypertrophy, the frontal lobe shrink and

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Speaker 1: because stress kills off neurons in the frontal lobes, and

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Speaker 1: it affects women more than it does men, right, significantly.

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Speaker 1: And I was wondering about this, and I think, and

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Speaker 1: you know, this is just purely speculation on my point,

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Speaker 1: but I think that's a there's an evolutionary biology effect here, right,

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Speaker 1: that it makes perfect sense to me if we think

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Speaker 1: of caveman days and where we've developed from, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that our genome hasn't changed in forty five thousand years, right,

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Speaker 1: that's from Professor Frank book. So we have a hunter

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Speaker 1: gatherers genome, and the men were out hunting and the

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Speaker 1: women were gathering and bringing up the young and protecting

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Speaker 1: the young. So it makes perfect evolutionary sense to me

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Speaker 1: that females would be more hypervigilant to stress and more

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Speaker 1: affected by stress than meals. Right, And because of that,

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Speaker 1: you really don't as a species want your men who

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Speaker 1: are out hunting to be hyper vigilant to stress and

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Speaker 1: threat but it is an advantage if the females are

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Speaker 1: because they're looking after the young.

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Speaker 3: And all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to get your thoughts, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's sure speculation.

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Speaker 2: Well that's really interesting. I think part of that also,

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Speaker 2: like you said, whatever you practice is what kind of

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Speaker 2: how your brain develops. So if you've had evolutionarily men

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Speaker 2: being the hunters and gatherers and approaching dangerous situations and

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Speaker 2: threatening situations all the time for the survival of their families,

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Speaker 2: then their brains are wired in a way to withstand

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Speaker 2: that better. Because I mean, if you think about the

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Speaker 2: treatment for anxiety, part of it is exposure therapy, right. So, right,

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Speaker 2: so they've just been if you've got to say, working

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Speaker 2: on your theory, you've got males with male brains and

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Speaker 2: they're constantly exposing themselves to anxiety provoking situations. Then over

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Speaker 2: time their brains have developed some resilience to that, whereas,

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Speaker 2: like you said, with females, their job was different and

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Speaker 2: so it wasn't to approach threats, it was to avoid.

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Speaker 2: So an avoidance is really counter to the treatment of anxiety.

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Speaker 2: But it was functional then because they needed to do

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Speaker 2: that to stay safe and survive. It's not functional now

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Speaker 2: because most are the things that people feel anxious about

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Speaker 2: aren't actually dangerous. Yeah, correct, but our brains don't know that.

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Speaker 2: So it's about learning and understanding what is the function

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Speaker 2: of anxiety and being able to decipher for yourself what's

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Speaker 2: actually going on. But also is it functional or dysfunctional?

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Speaker 2: Is this serving me or not? Because sometimes it might be,

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Speaker 2: but most of the time it's the people that I see.

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Speaker 2: It's it's often misfiring. It's you know, it's signaling a

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Speaker 2: threat that doesn't actually exist, or it's exaggerating a threat

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Speaker 2: that might that you know, people are thinking may happen,

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Speaker 2: or it's lasting longer than it needs to, or it's

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Speaker 2: occurring more frequently or intensely than it needs to. So

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Speaker 2: all of those issues make anxiety dysfunctional. Whereas if it's

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Speaker 2: actually signaling a real threat and it's communicating to you

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Speaker 2: that you need to do something about that, and it's

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Speaker 2: helping your body prepare to deal with it, and it's

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Speaker 2: motivating you to take effective actions to manage the threat,

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Speaker 2: then it's working and you want anxiety in your life

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Speaker 2: for that purpose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent now on that theme. So

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Speaker 1: this is a bit of a long winded question and

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Speaker 1: I'll get your opinion on it. So that whole exposure

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Speaker 1: slash avoidance and again this is just a personal opinion,

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Speaker 1: but just you know, I have an eighteen year old daughter,

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Speaker 1: so I kind of know what goes on. I know

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Speaker 1: what goes on in schools, I know what goes on

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Speaker 1: in universities. For me, there is a real danger that

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Speaker 1: well intentioned awareness and intervention campaigns can potentially be contributing

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Speaker 1: to this. So we know that universities now and schools

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Speaker 1: are completely littered with trigger warnings around everything, and that

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Speaker 1: people can opt out of things. And there's a nice

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Speaker 1: meta analysis done of trigger warnings that showed that in

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of cases they make things worse and

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Speaker 1: even for people with PTSD because they encourage avoidance behaviors.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, but thinking about the amygdala as well. For me,

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Speaker 3: if you're.

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Speaker 1: Constantly being told this might be upsetting, this might be

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Speaker 1: something that you don't want to see.

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Speaker 3: Every time that.

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Speaker 1: Happens, you're a Migdala sits right up and goes, oh,

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Speaker 1: hold on, a minute, there's there's threat here, and I

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Speaker 1: actually think that we are potentially potentiating people's brains to

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Speaker 1: stress and threat and also with that, again well intentioned stuff,

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Speaker 1: so much discussion about mental health. I actually think we've

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Speaker 1: probably gone too far for some people, particularly very impressionable

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Speaker 1: young people.

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Speaker 3: Yes, really interesting are looking.

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Speaker 1: For an identity, right because you look at it and

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Speaker 1: the stats are the way worse in schools and in universities.

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Speaker 1: And I'm talking to lots of businesses right now that

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Speaker 1: are saying that people are coming out of university with

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Speaker 1: absolutely no resilience whatsoever. What's your thoughts on that as

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Speaker 1: a theory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think that's super interesting. I think that

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Speaker 2: on one hand, we want we know that there's information

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Speaker 2: overload that's causing a lot of stress, and we want

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Speaker 2: to effectively limit that to some degree so that you're

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Speaker 2: not exposing yourself all the time to trauma and disaster

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Speaker 2: and problematic news and all of that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, you don't want want to

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Speaker 2: shelter people too much to the realities of life, correct, Right,

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Speaker 2: So people have to know how to deal with challenging situations,

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Speaker 2: and they won't know how to do that unless they

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Speaker 2: are challenged. And so I think it's a balance, right

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Speaker 2: that we have to kind of maybe we've gone you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes when things are transitioning from literally nothing about mental

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Speaker 2: health and well being right, and no sensitivity at all

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Speaker 2: about what might be triggering to somebody and what might

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Speaker 2: be traumatic information for somebody to receive too, the overcorrecting

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Speaker 2: which sometimes happens in that transition of like now we

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Speaker 2: need to put a lot of focus on and talk

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Speaker 2: about all the time, and perhaps the balance is still

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Speaker 2: off and we need to kind of create more of

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Speaker 2: a balance with that. I think with resilience, the research

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Speaker 2: that I've done on resilience, it's three factors that contribute

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Speaker 2: to building resilience, and the most important thing is who's

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Speaker 2: who are the people around you are? Do you have close, supportive,

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Speaker 2: positive relationships not only that support you, but also model

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Speaker 2: the use of skills, the use of the challenge, you know,

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Speaker 2: going through challenges and seeing how they can do that effectively,

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Speaker 2: seeing how people around you can deal with distress and

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Speaker 2: approach things rather than avoid things. And that's number one,

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Speaker 2: and then number two would be your own self belief,

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Speaker 2: your mindset, your yes, that's right, self efficacy, all of

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Speaker 2: those things. And then the third is like your skills,

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Speaker 2: Like what skills do you have to deal with the challenges,

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Speaker 2: the ups and downs of life, to deal with the

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Speaker 2: potential you know that the expected things. We're all going

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Speaker 2: to go through challenges, so we have to expect and

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Speaker 2: accept that we will. So do you have the skills

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Speaker 2: to manage stress stressful situations? Do you have the skills

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Speaker 2: when you're confronted with information that is distressing to manage that?

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Speaker 2: Do you know what works for you to calm down

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Speaker 2: and to reduce physical or cognitive symptoms of anxiety? Those

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Speaker 2: are really important. And also you know, obviously those aren't

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Speaker 2: the only skills. There's our communication skills, into personal skills,

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Speaker 2: social skills. I mean, there's so many skills that we

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Speaker 2: need to kind of function effectively in the world. But

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Speaker 2: those three things, in combination with people being at the

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Speaker 2: you know, the the heart of it, like number one,

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Speaker 2: are really important to build resilience. So in what ways

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Speaker 2: are we not supporting young people two build those skills

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Speaker 2: that they need to develop a mindset that is optimistic

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Speaker 2: and determined and persevere and willing and courageous and willing

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Speaker 2: to approach challenging situations and who are who is there

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Speaker 2: to support young people and to show them the way. Really, m.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a I wholeheartedly agree with all of that.

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Speaker 1: I think there's something extra in there as well, and

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Speaker 1: my PSDs on resilience and hardiness.

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Speaker 3: And for me, there.

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Speaker 1: A huge element of this is been the environment that

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Speaker 1: we're brought up in. That is has been shaped over

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Speaker 1: the last decades, starting in the nineteen eighties with the

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Speaker 1: whole self esteem movement that came out of the United

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Speaker 1: States that boosting people's self esteem falsely, and now this

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Speaker 1: whole movement of helicopter parenting and coddling kids and keeping

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Speaker 1: them away from stress and going oph the you know

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Speaker 1: they've been through, they've been through COVID.

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Speaker 3: We need to protect them.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm going to give you one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite quotes on this from Epictetus, the historic philosopher, who

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Speaker 1: two thousand years ago said we must all undergo a

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Speaker 1: hard winter training and not enter into lightly that for

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Speaker 1: which we have not prepared. And he was talking about life.

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Speaker 1: You know, I believe there's I mean, there's so many

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Speaker 1: factors that come into it, but I believe it's pretty

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Speaker 1: significant that our kids are too sheltered, and particularly in

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Speaker 1: this country, Like people who say Australia is hard, it's

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Speaker 1: not hard. This country has it easier than the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of the world's population. And you know, when people

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Speaker 1: talk about COVID being traumatic, our grandparents went to war.

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Speaker 1: It's not worse than COVID nine. I know there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of mental health issues that came out that

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Speaker 1: weren't even acknowledged or addressed or those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm getting at is that the hardest thing

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Speaker 1: you've ever feest is the hardest thing you've ever feest,

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Speaker 1: and that becomes a barometer for what is tough.

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Speaker 3: Do you get my point?

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Speaker 2: I do. I understand what you're saying. Look, for sure,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of things in pop culture that have

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Speaker 2: been damaging. I think that's one correct. There's certainly things

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Speaker 2: now that I find really harmful that are prolific in

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Speaker 2: our culture now. And and also that start it would

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Speaker 2: have started like twenty you know, the positive thinking movement

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Speaker 2: that started twenty years ago, right, this idea that we

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Speaker 2: should be thinking a certain way all the time, and

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Speaker 2: that destructive or negative thoughts are bad and should be

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Speaker 2: avoided at all costs. It's absolutely impossible. It's impossible. But

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Speaker 2: also what you've created, and this might in my theory,

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Speaker 2: is these kinds of thoughts have or belief systems that

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Speaker 2: have come through wherever somebody's written a book and people

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Speaker 2: everyone you know is proliferated via OPRAH or somebody that

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Speaker 2: people are afraid of themselves. So for instance, like if

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Speaker 2: you say, if you say your thoughts have the power

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Speaker 2: to you know, if you think positive believe, then you

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Speaker 2: will get what you want in life.

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Speaker 1: Right, you can manifest, you can manifest the universe.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So if that's the case, then what happens if you

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Speaker 2: have depression or PTSD and all your thoughts are filtered

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Speaker 2: through those disorders, and they're going to have a negative filter,

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Speaker 2: They're going to be destructive, they're going to be pessimistic.

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Speaker 2: All if you believe that your thoughts have power in

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Speaker 2: that way, then if you're going to be consistent with

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Speaker 2: that belief, then that means your negative thoughts have power.

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Speaker 2: And now all of a sudden you have something to

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Speaker 2: be very anxious about, because now you have the power

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Speaker 2: to harm people with your thoughts, or now you have

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Speaker 2: the power to bring bad things into your life because

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Speaker 2: you can't help but think of negative things. You can't

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Speaker 2: help but worry. You can't help but have those random

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Speaker 2: destructive thoughts come in your mind. And what then happens

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Speaker 2: is you become hypervigilant of those thoughts and will become

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Speaker 2: hypervigilant that's all we think about, or are we try

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Speaker 2: to suppress the thoughts. While suppressing your thoughts also leads

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Speaker 2: to you thinking about them more. So, when you think

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Speaker 2: about things more, it can make you believe that they're meaningful. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: if you're thinking about something you don't want to think

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Speaker 2: about it, and then that it keeps popping back in

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Speaker 2: your head and you don't understand the mechanisms of that,

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Speaker 2: then you start thinking, well, it keeps popping back into

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Speaker 2: my head, it must be true, I must I should

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Speaker 2: be thinking about this. This all of a sudden has

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Speaker 2: more meaning. Meanwhile, your brain is rewiring as well, right than,

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Speaker 2: those connections between all of those thoughts are becoming stronger

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Speaker 2: and stronger, And then you end up highly anxious. You

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Speaker 2: might have a whole range of problems related to that.

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Speaker 2: I see a lot of people with where they have

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Speaker 2: You know, part of OCD can be being worried that

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Speaker 2: you're going to do harm to someone, for instance, and

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Speaker 2: they really believe because they thought it, it's going to happen, right,

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Speaker 2: So it leads to all of these compulsions to try

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Speaker 2: to neutralize the thought, neutralize that from eventuating. And part

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Speaker 2: of what I have to do as a psychologist is

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Speaker 2: address the pop culture movement of manifestation and this idea

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Speaker 2: that all of our thoughts are meant to be a

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Speaker 2: certain way, and dispel those kinds of myths and beliefs

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Speaker 2: and say, like, no, we have like up to eighty

435
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Speaker 2: thousand thoughts a day. A lot of them are going

436
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Speaker 2: to be destructive, a lot of them are going to

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Speaker 2: be negative. You know, We're going to have visions that

438
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: you know, visual images in our brains that we're not

439
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: that are unpleasant. We're going to have memories that we

440
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: don't particularly like. There's all of these things are normal processes,

441
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: but we're we can pay attention to every single one

442
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: of the thoughts that come to our head. What we

443
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: end up paying attention to is what we practiced paying

444
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: attention to and given meaning to.

445
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: So you talked about attention there.

446
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: I actually think that this is a huge part of

447
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: it is are where our attention actually goes. So in

448
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: Japanese psychology, which my wife's practitioner, in Marita therapy, and

449
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: in Stoic philosophy, by the way, similar ways of saying

450
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: the same thing, but in Japanese psychology they're very overt

451
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: about it, and they say, the most powerful thing in

452
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: your life that you have control over is the flashlight

453
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: of your attention. And as a neuroscientist, I love that

454
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: because you'll know this as well. Whatever you pay attention to,

455
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: you brain commit sales to. And in Japanese psychology and

456
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: Marita therapy they say, the issue is not that you

457
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: have negative experiences or you're having negative thoughts, they're just

458
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: that's a quintessential part of being human, right, It's the

459
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: fact that so many people shine the flashlight of their

460
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: attention in their own heads for long periods of time.

461
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: And to your point, if you're having those negative thoughts,

462
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: you're shining your attention on those negative thoughts, your brain

463
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: is committing sales to it. It's potentiating you're a migdala.

464
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: And then you get into the tyranny of the shoots.

465
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be having these thoughts and then you throw

466
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: in this world that we live in with all this

467
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: advertising and marketing that we should be happy and it's

468
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: all about happiness, happiness, happiness, and people expect to be happy,

469
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: and they're shining the flashlight of attention in their own

470
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: heads and they're trying to fundamentally change reality.

471
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they've been said that this is the version

472
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: of reality that they've been fed. Yes, And that's the

473
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: unfortunate part. There's some very very low quality information out

474
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: there on well being and just misinformation, and unfortunately it's

475
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: you know, psychologists or mental health professionals or people doing PhDs,

476
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, like they're not the people that people are listening.

477
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: To, like right, like.

478
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: They're listening to influencers. They're they're getting a version of

479
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: the story that's really particular to the person telling it

480
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: and not generalizable really, but it's presented as if it

481
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: is and it's I mean, I guess one of the

482
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: most important skills that we can teach our kids that

483
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: I have two one seventeen one's fifteen is critical analysis skills.

484
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: They really need to be able to tell what's good information,

485
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: what's quality information, and to be able to and know

486
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: how to check that because you can't necessarily just hell

487
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: by hearing something. But where do you check out your information?

488
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: It's so important because it's, like you said, it's what

489
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: you pay attention to and then meaning you attached to

490
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: that you know. So if you think that your thoughts

491
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 2: are bad or threatening, right, and they can cause bad

492
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: things to happen, that actually makes sense for you to

493
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: be really worried about that. Right. That means anxiety is

494
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: trying to protect you. They're saying, your thoughts are bad,

495
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: we need to do something about this. I need to

496
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: be on high alert. So you're going to be paying

497
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: more attention, unfortunately, instead of less. So it's about dispelling

498
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 2: those beliefs and helping people understand that not all your

499
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: thoughts have meaning. They're not factual. They're sometimes just a

500
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 2: string of words in your head that maybe you've practiced

501
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: over time, and that's why they're bothering you a lot.

502
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean that they have meaning and that they need

503
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: to cause you any distress, and that takes practice. And

504
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: sometimes it's through things like mindfulness that people can start tolerating,

505
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: tolerating distressing thoughts without doing anything about it, without reacting

506
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: to it, excepting that they will happen, and taking more

507
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: effective action as a result.

508
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is you just summed up acceptance commitment therapy

509
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: in a sentence, right, which I think is you know,

510
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: of all the and and you know, I'm not finished

511
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: my pH d in psychology, but of all the the

512
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: interventions of the therapies, I'm very drawn to act because

513
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: it's very similar to Japanese psychology. It's very similar to stoicism.

514
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: And basically it's like, you know what life's hard, and

515
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: bad ship will have with bad ship will help. You

516
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: need to accept that, not try to change reality, but

517
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: you need to commit to action that's aligned to your

518
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: values that's going to take you towards the person you

519
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: want to be, right, And I think that has to

520
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: be taught in primary schools right from the get go.

521
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: And don't listen to this crap on social media that

522
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: says that you should be happy and and you know

523
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: the other thing about social media, which I think plays

524
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: into it, is all the comparison stuff that we're comparing

525
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: ourselves to the best little her brush snapshots of people's

526
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: lives and thinking that that's the way that our lives

527
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: should be, which can be really damaging as well, but

528
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: let's do a deep dive into worry. There's a pretty

529
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: co research paper that I like to talk about. But

530
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: they took a bunch of people with generalized anksiety disort

531
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: of done if you've come across this research paper, and

532
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: got them to write down everything that they were worried

533
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: about and in journal, and then they followed them up.

534
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: I think it was a year later to go through

535
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: and actually work out what came true and what didn't.

536
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: And it turns out that ninety one percent of the

537
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: stuff that people worried about didn't actually come true.

538
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: That's right, So like, what the hell is? So what?

539
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: Why why do we spend so much time worrying? And

540
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 3: what can we do about it?

541
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: And just before you get into that, I think another

542
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: quote from the stoic Seneca said, foresight is man's greatest

543
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: gift and his greatest achilles heal, right, because it helps

544
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: us to plan for the future and do all those

545
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: things that we need to do to survive and have

546
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: a good life. But it also allows us to worry

547
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: about stuff. So let's unpack worry.

548
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, worry is our thoughts expression of anxiety. Right,

549
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: It's like all the what ifs and all the if onlies.

550
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: You know, if only is are kind of more aligned

551
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 2: with depression, like if only I had done this differently,

552
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: And you know, rumination.

553
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 3: Because it's about because it's about the past. Yes, where's

554
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: the one that the future?

555
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: Right, So that's more aligned with anxiety. Right. So, but

556
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: like you, like anxiety, worry serves a function. It's meant

557
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: to help us protect ourselves and prepare. But again, like anxiety,

558
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: it's miss it's misfiring sometimes, right, Sometimes we're spending a

559
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: lot of time worrying over things that will never happen

560
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the time. I read that paper as well.

561
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: I think it was a month later that they they

562
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: checked and not only was it, they also got them

563
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 2: to write how likely it was going to happen based

564
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 2: on their gut feeling and based on logic, and both

565
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: were equally just as inaccurate. So it's really it's really interesting.

566
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: But we're spending a lot of time if we're anxious,

567
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: we're spending or depressed, or really, if you think about

568
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: any mental health condition, worries at the bottom of a

569
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: lot of them, or at least a significant component, then

570
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: we're spending a lot of time in our own heads

571
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: and not focused on what we actually want to do

572
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: during the day. And we're also spending a lot of

573
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 2: time not being able to sleep at night. We're either

574
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: having trouble falling asleep or we're getting up in the

575
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 2: middle of that. We're waking up in the middle of

576
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: the night with our thoughts, you know, worried about whatever's coming,

577
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: you know, whatever's coming next. So it's can be functional,

578
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: but it can also be really dysfunctional, and it's really

579
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: important to understand the difference. And I don't think most

580
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: people are actually have been exposed to strategies to deal

581
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: with worries specifically, So I think it's a really important

582
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 2: thing to get out there.

583
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: So what that begs the question, what are some strategies

584
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: that people can actually use to deal with worry.

585
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 2: So one of the main things that people try to

586
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 2: do when they worry a lot is tell themselves to

587
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: stop worrying, right, to stop worrying.

588
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: And somebody else tellbody else tails.

589
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, or they get that message from the just stop,

590
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: like what are you worried about? But I think I

591
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: mentioned this earlier. There's there's a study back in the

592
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: eighties by David Wagner, and you'll know this. You'll know

593
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: a study that's similar because it's an act thing as well,

594
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: with the pink elephant. If you tell someone to know

595
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 2: about a elephant, that's all they're going to think about.

596
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: So David Wagner did that study in I think eighty

597
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: seven or something like that, and but his was the

598
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: white bear. So he just got people to think for

599
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 2: five minutes about whatever they wanted, but said, don't think

600
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: about a white bear. And of course people can help,

601
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: but think about the white bear. So they discovered in

602
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: that research and further research that trying to suppress thoughts

603
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: not only doesn't work, but it can actually cause a

604
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 2: rebound effect, so it can cause you to think about

605
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: it more later. Now, another researcher called Borkovic was tasked

606
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: to try to relieve worry for people who had insomnia,

607
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: and what they came up with was this strategy called

608
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: worry time. Have you heard of worry time?

609
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:39,959
Speaker 3: Paul?

610
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: No?

611
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: But can I have a guess at what it might be?

612
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: Just from what you said, it's you compartmentalize, you set

613
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: yourself up block of time or you're going to actively

614
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: worry and then you do all your worrying intensely, and

615
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: then you get some cognitivesure because your brand is like

616
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: avoided about that.

617
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: It's all good, yeah, perfect, well done, yeah exactly. So

618
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: what they actually found was if you tell yourself to

619
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: stop worrying, that doesn't work. But if you tell yourself

620
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: to delay it to a specific time, you're more likely

621
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: to let it go. And then what you're doing also

622
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: is you're setting a time in a place that's actually

623
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: convenient for you to actually think through your problems. So

624
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 2: you're going to be a lot more effective in dealing

625
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 2: with your problems than anyway. And also you're limiting the

626
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: time that you're thinking about your worries and your problems

627
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: to that particular amount of time, which is it's suggested

628
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: to be about fifteen to thirty minutes a day to

629
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: start with as a practice, so it's not a lot

630
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: of time. So the idea is to when you're kind

631
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 2: of well first to set your time and place to worry,

632
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: so that might be let's say five point thirty to

633
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 2: six every day, and then when you have worries throughout

634
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: the day, you write them down. So the old school

635
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: way of doing this that we were talking about, this

636
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: is a strategy that came out in the eighties was

637
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: literally writing it down on pieces of paper and then

638
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: having like a worry box or a worry jar where

639
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: you store your worries right, and then when you are

640
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: in your worry time, you just take them out, you know,

641
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: you can categorize them or do whatever you want to

642
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: process them and worry about them. Then. Unfortunately, nowadays most

643
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: people don't really want to write stuff down on pieces

644
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: of paper. And also it's not the most private and

645
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: secure way of like dealing with your problems either, Like

646
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: it's you know, people are much more concerned about privacy,

647
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: and that's perfectly reasonable as well. So just in the

648
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: last year and a half, well a couple of years ago,

649
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: I was having this conversation with a client about worry time,

650
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: and I could just see that he wasn't going to

651
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: do it because it was so messy and it just,

652
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, it just doesn't really go with the modern

653
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 2: way that we do things. And I just thought maybe

654
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: if it was an app, that we would do it.

655
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: And so I ended up working with a digital designer

656
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: and we created an app called Contain Your Brain to

657
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: give people a really practical, modern, and secure way to

658
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: practice worry time. So what it does is it helped

659
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: you set your times flexibly across the week. You can

660
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: set how long you want that time to be up

661
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: to an hour. We wouldn't want more than an hour,

662
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: and you can get notifications for that time. But then

663
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: we and then there's a secure place to store your worries.

664
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: So throughout the day, you know, if you've got to worry,

665
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: just quickly add it into the app. You can also

666
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: voice it in if you don't feel like writing it in,

667
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: and then when you're in your worry time, we have

668
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 2: a really simple framework for people to address their problems effectively.

669
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: And one of the so we get them to categorize

670
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 2: their worries to either solvable worries, unsolvable worries are solved.

671
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 2: So the research that you were talking about before, right,

672
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: mean that ninety percent of the worries are likely to

673
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: be in the solved category. And if they choose that category,

674
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 2: what happens is they get tips that are related to

675
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 2: that category. Right, So if you choose something that's already

676
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: been solved or something that happened but it didn't turn

677
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: out as badly as you thought, which is the other

678
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: thing that usually happens. Then the behavior or the action

679
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: we want people to take is really to reflect on

680
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: those What are all those worries that are taking up

681
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: all of your time that you actually don't need to

682
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: worry about, because once you know what they are, when

683
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 2: they come back in your brain, you'd be like, oh, yeah,

684
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: those are one of those ones that'll solve themselves. Be

685
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: much easier to let those go. And if you can

686
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 2: let ninety percent of your worries go, you're already saving

687
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: so much mind time. Right, you can focus better during

688
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: the day, probably sleep better at night. But the other category,

689
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: so the solvable category. With that one you would get

690
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: problem solving tips. I think most people are pretty comfortable

691
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: with the worries that they can do something about, but

692
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 2: if they wanted some problem solving tips, they can get

693
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 2: that in the app. It's the unsolvable worries that are

694
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: the problem. It's the ones that we can't do anything about,

695
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: we don't have any control over, or we're not in

696
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: the power to do anything about them, or they're just

697
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: the reality of life and there's literally nothing to be done.

698
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: Those are the problems. Or you know, something's happened in

699
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: the past and you can't change it. Those are the

700
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 2: ones that play on our minds, and so we offer

701
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 2: tips to deal with those unsolvable worries too, and are

702
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: tips that are based in and underpinned by ACT therapy,

703
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: but also dialectical behavior therapy and also cognitive behavioral therapy

704
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: and positive psychology as well. But there are things that

705
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: are about how do you tolerate the distress and not

706
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: being able to solve this problem? How do you accept

707
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 2: reality as it is? How do you refocus your attention

708
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 2: on something that's better for you to focus on. How

709
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 2: do you how can you use gratitude to assist you?

710
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: How do you how can you be self compassionate rather

711
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 2: than judgemental of yourself? Those kinds of things. So that's

712
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: really all it is. It's a very simple app and

713
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: it just gives people a really kind of easy way

714
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: to Like you said, it's a compartmentalizing strategy that will

715
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 2: reduce the frequency of your worry but also help you

716
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 2: solve your problems more effectively if you can accept the

717
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 2: problems that you have more effectively and also read yourself

718
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: of all those little ones that really don't matter that

719
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: are taking up your mind, so that you can focus

720
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: on the ones that are actually the most important.

721
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: That is genius.

722
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the concept of worry time

723
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: in and of itself is quite quite genius. But I

724
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: like the fact that you've brought the technology in because,

725
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: as you rightly say, a lot of people don't want

726
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 1: to write stuff down. But also that you're bringing in

727
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: one of the key stoic concepts epic titius, the very

728
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: first line of the encredy on of things.

729
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 3: Some are up to us and others are not.

730
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: And that's that whole stoic concept of everything in your

731
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: life is in two zones. You know, the stuff that

732
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: is up to you and the stuff that's not to you,

733
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 1: And you've got to focus your energy on the stuff

734
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: that's up to you and refuse to.

735
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 3: Invest your energy.

736
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: But I think what's nice is that you're then giving

737
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: people problem solving tips, so rather than avoiding stuff, they're

738
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: actually using problem solved in our problem solving focused skills

739
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: rather than just that avoidant stuff. So that's awesome. I

740
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: love the concept of that. And now that that whole

741
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: worry thing brings us very nicely into sleep and actually

742
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: talking about worry time, I remember years ago when I

743
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: was running workshops talking to people about a dump pad.

744
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: So this was just a little pad that you have

745
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: beside your bed. So people who were worriers, I would

746
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: get them to write down all the stuff they were

747
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: worried about so that they had some cognitive closure. And

748
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: there was a lady who was in I works up

749
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: who had in so many for years, and a couple

750
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: of months later she wrote to me and said that

751
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: just was a complete and utter game changer, because everybody

752
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: will get I'm so tired of being really stressed. I've

753
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: had a stress to day. I'm going to be asleep

754
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: in five seconds. They lie down, their head hits the pillow,

755
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: and the brain goes on fire. Right, So worry obviously

756
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 1: plays really really strongly into sleep. But we know also

757
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: that if you are sleep deprived, it massively increases your

758
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: risk of common mental health disorders anxiety depression. We know

759
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: that if you're self medicating to get to sleep with

760
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: either alcohol or marijuana, that impacts upon not only deep sleep,

761
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: but ram sleep, and I think Dutch researchers in twenty

762
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: nineteen showed that ram sleep is kind of like nightly

763
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: therapy for the Brian where you re play the day's events,

764
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: but in the absence of no epinephrin. What I thought

765
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: was freaking amazing that during ram sleep, you're brilliant blocks

766
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: the release of no epineffrin from the locus aurelius, so

767
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: you can remember that event in a less stressful situation, which.

768
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 3: Is just so cool. But let's let's talk about sleep.

769
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: I think I think everybody gets the importance of sleep

770
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: for not just good mental health but good physical health.

771
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: But what are some of the things that people can

772
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: do as well as using the app or that physical

773
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: worry time of the dump pod. What other sorts of

774
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: strategies do you have. I mean, we know that CBTI

775
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: is probably the most effective interventions.

776
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a range of interventions that people can use

777
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: for insomnia, which is difficulty falling or staying asleep. I

778
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: think what's really important is for you to understand the

779
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: source of the problem for you. There's a lot of

780
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: advice out there, and yeah, CBTI strategies are super useful,

781
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: but they're not useful if that's not your problem. Right,

782
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 2: So is your problem temperature, light noise? If it is,

783
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: then yeah, put your thermostat at the right level and

784
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: make sure, you've got curtains that cover all the light

785
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: and try to you know, manage noise, maybe where earplugs

786
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: or something like that. That's that can be really helpful.

787
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 2: Worry actually is probably one of the the main issues

788
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: getting in the way of sleep. If I when I

789
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: talk to people and they tell me, and a lot

790
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: of people talk about how they can't sleep, it's it's

791
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 2: quite prolific. And I say, well, what gets in the way,

792
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 2: It's like, ah, my mind is racing. Well, yeah, that's

793
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: what it is. So if your mind is racing, then

794
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: why did you buy blue light glasses like that? That's

795
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: not going to help you with your mind, right, So

796
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: it's like, understand what the problem is, what's the source

797
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: of the issue, and do something about that. So, yes,

798
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: so there might be things about your environment, which we

799
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: just talked about. There might be things about what you

800
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: do during the day, like, for instance, the client that

801
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: I saw with the coffee and the cigarettes and the

802
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: you know, if you're drinking a lot of coke and

803
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: processed foods and cheese just before bed, and chocolate and

804
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 2: you know, all of those things can interfere with sleep

805
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 2: at night. Sometimes it's about your routine just before bed

806
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: that can interfere or that you could change to make

807
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: it more conducive to being relaxed and falling asleep. Light

808
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 2: has a lot to do with it, so you want

809
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: to be getting really nice early morning natural sunlight if

810
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: you can, really helpful for your circadian rhythms and making

811
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: sure that melatonin is working in the right way and

812
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 2: firing when it needs to fire, and so yeah, light

813
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: in the morning and dimming your lights at night. You know,

814
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: if you're watching TV, that's fine, just but turn off

815
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: all the other lights in the house. You know they

816
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 2: don't need to be on. So that can really get

817
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 2: you ready for sleep as well. If you're really having

818
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 2: trouble falling and falling asleep and staying asleep, sometimes having

819
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: the routine of going to bed at the exact same

820
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 2: time and waking up at the exact same time can

821
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: be very helpful. But there are other things like if

822
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: it's a chronic problem, I would say see a sleep specialist.

823
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: There are a lot of things as sleep specialists can

824
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: do with you that it would be very hard to

825
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 2: do on your own. So there's sleep restriction therapy, for instance,

826
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: which is kind of a method of basically just staying

827
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: in bed for the only the time that you're sleeping for.

828
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 2: So they it's a calculation that they do and I

829
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 2: have I have an online course and a book that

830
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: describes how that's done, and so you could potentially do

831
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: it if you really wanted to, but it would be

832
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 2: very hard for you to do it by yourself. You

833
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: would it would be much better if you saw a

834
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: sleep specialist. And also you can do it.

835
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: There was sorry Leon, there was a guy I think

836
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: he's from it's one of the Melbourne universities, but he

837
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: developed this ring and I actually was was I got

838
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: one of them because he was doing a little pilot

839
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: study where basically it was four people with insomnia and

840
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: they would have this ring on and they would go

841
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: to bed and every fifteen minutes it would it would

842
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: buzz and they'd have to get out of bed. So

843
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 1: what it did is a created massive sleep pressure. And

844
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: within three nights of doing this, like people got so

845
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: bloody tired with the sleep pressure that you know that

846
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: they're they're ins many got massively improved and that that

847
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: was an extreme form of that sleep restriction. But I

848
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: think one of the issues people have is they just

849
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: line bit and they toss and turn, don't they And

850
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 1: they should really be getting up, going to another room,

851
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: read a book, do some breathing, do something.

852
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: Really sharing it. One of the things that can really

853
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 2: help though, also is especially if you're going through a

854
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 2: lot of stress in your current kind of circumstances, is

855
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: to try to lower your overall stress levels. And one

856
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: of the best ways that you can do that is

857
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: by practicing progressive muscle relaxation. So that's yes, yeah, that

858
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 2: relaxation exercise that involves tensing and then relaxing your muscles

859
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 2: in your body in a systematic way, and you can

860
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: do that during the day to reduce your stress and

861
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: anxiety levels, but you can also do them before you

862
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: go to bed. One of the things I've done over

863
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 2: the years is record lots of these kinds of exercises

864
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 2: and they're all on Spotify or inside time or for

865
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: free if people want to go access them. But I

866
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 2: have a progressive muscle relaxation exercise for stress and anxiety

867
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: that people can do during the day, and then I

868
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 2: also have one for sleep that they can do at night.

869
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: And.

870
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 2: It can be, like I said, really helpful to reduce

871
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: your overall level of stress and anxiety, but it can

872
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: also be really helpful just to reduce it in that

873
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 2: moment where you want to get to sleep or do

874
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: something that's going to cause you anxiety.

875
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: And the other thing I would say is don't do

876
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: cognitively stimulating activities combined with blue light just before you

877
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: go to bed, So get off your bloody phone and

878
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: don't be on social media just before you go to bed,

879
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: because yeah, and just going to stimulate stuff.

880
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I think it's probably more an issue

881
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: of tearing yourself away from social media than it is

882
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: about the light that's actually coming through. But yeah, it's

883
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: not it's not the best thing to do to be

884
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 2: doing stimulating activities, like you know there and everyone's level

885
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: of that is different, right, So it's not like blanket

886
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: statement about what's what's too stimulating for one person might

887
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: not be for another person, but just knowing yourself and

888
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 2: being aware within yourself what gets in the way, And

889
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: sometimes it's not obvious and other times it's like, oh,

890
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 2: like for me, I had about of not being able

891
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 2: to sleep and I was like, what is actually happening?

892
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: And I realized I don't drink that much coffee. I

893
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: drink like one a day. But I think I noticed

894
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: that week I had the coffee after two pm, like

895
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 2: it was like late afternoon, Like, maybe that's what it is,

896
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: And so I just stopped drinking coffee after two and

897
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 2: it fixed it. Like it's just a kind of being

898
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 2: aware of like, what what are you doing that could

899
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: be impeding on this, what could be the source of

900
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: the problem, and then targeting that.

901
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 3: No, look, you're absolutely right.

902
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: Some people are caffeine sensitive, right, depends on what version

903
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: of the CYP one A two gene that you have.

904
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: That some people that's actually true, but some people if

905
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: they have a couple of cups of coffee. You know,

906
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: there are most people that the average half life is

907
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: about six hours, but for some people who are slow processors,

908
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: that half.

909
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 3: Life can be ten twelve rs.

910
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: Right.

911
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: And then so if they're having two, they're trying to

912
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: go to sleep, and they've got caffeine in their brain

913
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: at stimulant levels, and it's a pretty stimulant, that's the thing. Right, Yeah,

914
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: that's right, Lily, And look, this has been absolutely awesome.

915
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: I think we've covered so many topics on this that

916
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: are are intertwined, and I think that's The important thing

917
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: is that your thoughts, your worry, your sleep, your practice,

918
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: your sleep, high gen practices, all of those things interact

919
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: with each other. Where can people go to find out

920
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: more about your courses to download your app?

921
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 3: Presumably there's there's a website and other things.

922
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: Yes, there are, well, my probably the best place is

923
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: doctor Lilliannaja dot com and you'll see everything there. And

924
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: if you wanted to get more information about the app,

925
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 2: that would be contain your Brain dot com. And you

926
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 2: can also just download that straight from the app store.

927
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 3: Cool. What a great what a great name for it.

928
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 3: Thank you.

929
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: You must have been like when you come up with that,

930
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: you must have just been like, yes, nieled it.

931
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 2: That's so funny. I actually because I've been talking about

932
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: worry time for years, so I've been calling it Contain

933
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: your Brain for like ten years. So when we thought

934
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: about when I thought about doing the app, I'm like, well,

935
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 2: this is what it's going to be named. I've already

936
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: come up with the name, and I was really pleased

937
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: that it wasn't taken, you know, like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

938
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's brilliant and this this has been awesome,

939
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: So thank you for sharing your time. And look, there's

940
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: no doubt that if people listen to this and and

941
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: start to implement some of the strategies and it will

942
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: definitely have an impact. And if you're a warrior, you

943
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: got a bit of anxiety, continue, Brian.

944
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 3: Dot com, Off you go.

945
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for take action, right, don't just think about it,

946
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: get into action mode.

947
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 3: That's right,