WEBVTT - A Life and Crimes holiday reading guide 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:05.160 I'm being stalked, and no one took serious note of it, 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:07.520 and so then I had to stage my own disappearance 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:10.639 in order to prove that I was being stalked, to 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.320 bring attention to the problem of being stalked. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.120 That logic is not what a proof. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:21.119 He was very close to the grandfather who also was murdered. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.119 Oh dear, and becoming a bit of a theme. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.600 And this young gentleman was the last to see Grandpa. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:29.600 Oh my goodness. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.360 I'm Andrew Rules's Life and Crimes. It's that time of 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:38.840 year again where we chat about what books to read 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.040 over summer, and possibly even what films to watch or 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:43.800 any other pastimes that crop up. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:45.479 I'm here with the. 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:50.280 Podcast Long Suffering producer John Burton, whose full name is 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.720 longer than that, and he is going to take part 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.840 in this because I think he's a very keen reader 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.760 and a student of the printer word, among others. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.520 Welcome John, thank you kindly, among others and among others. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.960 Today I'll be more talking about documentaries. Documentaries, I think sentries. 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.000 For those of you who are more audio and video wise. 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.360 Oh excellent. That's good, because I'm not terribly wise. And 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.360 what would you recommend our listeners watch or get hold of. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.760 So there's a few interesting ones that are kicking around 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.479 that are highly regarded, and I highly regard them as well. 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.120 One of them, probably one of the most timely, is 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:40.119 a documentary on Netflix about Sean puff Daddy Coombs. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.000 Yeah, I've heard of P Diddy. 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.600 P Diddy, and you may have been enthralled or at 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.000 least seen a passing reference or to the recent trials. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.800 And I think he's just been convicted and sentenced to 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.440 something like fifty months or something like that. One of 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.400 the weird ways that Americans, you know, run their prison sentences, 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.920 sometimes two hundred years, very strange. But there is a 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:10.000 new documentary on Netflix called Sean Coombs The Reckoning, and 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.080 it's basically this sort of multi part portrait of his 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:19.800 rise and fall. It starts off with footage of him 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.920 hold up in a New York apartment, frantically calling his 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.480 attorney and looking over the road to a bunch of 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.120 law enforcement folk who are looking back at him. And 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.799 you always know it's going to be a good documentary 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.239 if they've got that sort of thing, if someone has 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.760 found a piece of vision of the person in question 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.560 in the moment of strife that you know is going 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.639 to engulf their life. You know, someone's onto something they've 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:48.680 dug somewhere good. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.119 Yeah, it does have that ring about it. This one 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.160 of It's somewhere sort of a modern cross between O. J. 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.440 Simpson and The Fall of Prince Andrew. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.799 A bit, a little bit and throughout it it's a 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.120 mo two part series, but it goes through his rise, 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.000 but at every stage there are people, you know, warning, 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:08.440 you know, the sort. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.560 Of the the against him about him, about him, that 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.280 he might be a smooth dude and good looking and 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.040 this and that and make money in the music business, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.160 et cetera. Yes, but deep down he's a gangster with 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.119 some bad habits, deep down done not all that deep 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.760 PABs perhaps not just under the surface. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.639 And what was his real name is Sean Combs? 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.040 Real name Sean Coombs sort of seen as a bit 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.560 of a wonder kind producer, seen as someone in the 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:41.320 early nineties that was finger on the pulse youthful music 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.560 and presario knew his way around a recording studio, but 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.520 interestingly was very early is caught up in some worrying things. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.720 His group organized a charity basketball match which ended up 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.000 in a crush, too many people trying to get in. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.840 Everyone wanted to be there, multiple people died. This was 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.040 seen by some as the making of him, because he 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:05.800 got his name out there, even if it was in 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.560 a bad way. 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:11.360 No such thing as bad publicity in some respects exactly so, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:12.880 especially in the rap world. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.400 No exactly so chouting his rise, but always with that 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.840 little caveat, and the caveats get bigger, the whispers get bigger. 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.400 True, it strikes me, you know, I've been around a 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.520 while and you can see the way that history sort 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.400 of changes, but doesn't change that the rise of the 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:35.479 rapper group, big money in it, therefore hangers on. You 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.800 have rappers with big mobs of people following them around 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.040 and all, you know, soaking up the money. Of course, 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.719 it's very reminiscent of the old time boxes, you know, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.599 Liston and Ali and all the rest of them, all the. 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.599 Way back to Joe Lewis. These guys who were. 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.520 Black guys making a lot of money in a sort 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.320 of a new and exciting scene, which while boxing wasn't 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.240 new when it became televised and had radio coverage, etc. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.800 It became monetized and that meant that boxers were fighting 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.320 for big purses. 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:18.520 Which gave us those huge. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.640 Heavyweight events, and it meant that these guys became household 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.400 names and they made millions of dollars instead of not 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.240 making millions of dollars. And it seems to me that 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.080 the rappers are to some extent a bit like that. 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:37.000 And there's always that suggestion that the boxes are mixed 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.040 up with the mob and with gangsters and with big 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.320 book makers and with dishonest stuff. Always that suggestion from 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.560 that goes all the way back to the bare knuckle 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.040 days really, and the rappers same thing. Where there's easy money, 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:54.039 there's crooks. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.240 Well, everyone loves to hang around someone who's rich and 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:58.480 famous if they can as well. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:04.720 So yeah, that deadly mixtures of money, notoriety. You know, 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:09.160 the girls will follow the guys, all that stuff, It 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.440 all goes together. Yeah, So that's a very fertile feel 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.960 to make a documentary about. What other ones we're looking at? 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.840 So another Netflix one and it's called Fred and Rose West, 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:21.600 a British horror story. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.040 Oh yes, Fred West. I'd forgotten about Fred West. It 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:25.919 is a horror story. 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.159 It is a horror story. And you know, one of 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.880 these ones that may have been on the periphery of 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.960 your knowledge because it was, you know, mid nineties. It 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.680 would have troubled the world pages probably back then, but 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.040 I don't think it was front page material in Australia. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.159 No, I can recall it clearly. But then again, you know, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.360 I'm in the business and probably took more of an interest. 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.880 But very strange set up. They almost looked like each other, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.840 Fred and Rosemary West. There was something very deeply creepy 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:52.320 about them. 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.800 Absolutely, it should explain the plot. I think Fred West, 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.480 one of his and Ros's children went missing, didn't turn 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:04.600 up to school, and they found her body under some 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.720 paving stones in the backyard, and Fred was immediately brought 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.280 in for questioning and it unraveled. He thought he was 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.040 smarter than the cops. He had that sort of swagger 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.040 about him, and bit by bit they broke him down 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.520 and found out. 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.280 The true horror of what he was up to. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.280 I think it was nine or more young women who 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.280 he had murdered, and they were all sort of had 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.760 a very much a type young women, runaways or sort 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.840 of girls who were. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.920 Floating through life, hard to trace, hard to trace. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.960 And this was at a time the actual murders happened 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.400 in the seventies, but the police investigation and they caught 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.960 up with him in the mid nineties, so they got 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.000 away with it for a long time. The first episode 0:07:55.040 --> 0:08:00.440 is titled Fred, and again, like the Sean Combs docum entry, 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.679 they've got themselves. I think they must have got either 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.720 a police proof of evidence or the record of interview. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.160 They certainly have a record of interview of him, and 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.960 it seems like it was the first time it's come 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.760 to light, so they've managed to get that. They've also 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.920 got footage of Fred going through his backyard with police 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.480 and going through the paving stones and saying, well, yes, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.680 she's buried here, and this one's buried here, which is 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.480 quite confronting to look at. It's sort of old, analog, 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.360 grainy footage, but it's very compelling. And so the first 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.920 episode is called Fred, and so Fred obviously was brought 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.160 in and he was in it from the beginning. You know, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.440 he was not getting free. But the second episode is 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:55.320 called Rose Rosebary as in the Wife, and it's it's 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.559 all about well, hang on, maybe Fred isn't the sole 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.199 butcher here, maybe his accomplice. And so it goes through 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.600 a Rosa's story, which in itself is upbringing bad married 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.280 Fred when she was fifteen or something, and goes through 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:14.160 and will. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.280 Have been abused as a child. 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.520 It's inevitable, and goes through and it paints a picture 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.319 of Fred was not the only monster in this family. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:26.240 Yeah, it's a terrible thing. It's probably second only. I 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.400 don't know if you have a hierarchy in these things, really, 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:33.400 but it's up there with that terrible story which became 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:38.200 a very brilliant book really about the Moore's murderers. The 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.200 book was called Beyond Belief and the Mores murderers were 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.640 Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and they have also gone 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:50.959 into infamy back in the sixties and their crimes. They 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.760 killed a series of children up in Yorkshire and buried 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.000 them out on the moors. But that same aspect of 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.600 folly a French call it where you've got a couple, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.960 I mean a man and a woman, which is particularly 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.800 sinister and creepy and awful because most of us tend 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.120 to trust a couple. We tend to trust the fact 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.800 that a woman is present, that a couple won't be 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:23.320 abductors or killers. But when they are how sinister is it? 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.280 Because they can persuade children that they're okay, And children 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.880 who would not get into a car or except the 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:35.560 live from or whatever from a man alone, will happily 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.520 go when it's a couple. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.400 And they are the subjects of that really quite chilling 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.960 photo or sets of photos, aren't they where black and white? 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.520 They're both sort of staring into camera, whiteyde and yeah, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.199 very very creepy. 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:50.600 Very creepy. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.640 She had the bleached blonde hair, Mayra Hindley and Ian 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:59.000 Brady I think his name was. He had the quiff, 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.680 the sort of rock role quick, a lean face like 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:06.960 a ferrety face, hard looking Scottish in origin, I think. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:12.760 And he'd come out of pretty ordinary circumstances in Scotland 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.200 or somewhere, and he'd been adopted out as a child, 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.440 which I have to say is a very common shared 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.679 attribute of a lot of people. I have done a 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.280 lot of bad things. Adopted boys haven't got a great record. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.440 Mister Stinky was an adopted boy. Paul Stephen Haig, who's 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:34.640 still in jail in Victoria for killing seven people, is. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.000 An adopted boy. And on it goes. 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.400 It's quite a long list of monsters and Ian Brady 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.240 was right at the top of it. Don't know about 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.200 Fred West. It would be interesting to know his background 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:49.959 because it will be very patchy. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.120 Well, Rose was not his first wife. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.600 No, what happened to the first one? There? 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.640 I asked, Well, certainly the well and this is where 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.280 it gets particularly horrifying. It he and his first wife 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.760 had a child, and that's one of the more horrific 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.560 parts of the documentary talking about that and how that 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.480 ended up. But to being on a slightly more flippant note, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.080 Fred did have a very profound quiff. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:16.440 He had. 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.280 He had the sort of rush back, crush back, and 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.280 then that that sort of morphed into a kind of 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.240 a nineteen nineties kind of lad look, even though it 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.520 was about, you know, fifties at the time. With the 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.320 lad look, the lad looks, oh yeah, read this. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.240 Is up in the up in the Midlands or something. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.720 I want to say, it's it's Canterbury or somewhere like 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.560 yeah yeah. And it was one of these ones where interestingly, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:46.200 the documentary starts with a journal and this is always good. 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.520 It's a small town journo who was her first job 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.360 was to cover this thing and she did all the 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.400 right things, she asked the right questions, she did the 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.520 right searches, you know, really good on the ground journalism. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.080 And then it ends up with a gentleman from the 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.000 tabloids in Fleet Street, I think from the Mirror talking 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:10.720 about paying jurors for their stories and how that had 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.840 the potential to disrail the eventual conviction. 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.680 Oh yeah, of Rose, Oh god, yeah. And that's on Netflix. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:21.720 That's on Netflix. 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.199 Any other really creepy things you're going to watch? Is 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:25.600 anything just slightly lighter? 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.280 I'll give you one more creepy in one light? How's 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.400 that for creepy? Carmen family murders. The Carmen family murders. 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.320 This is a case I'd never heard of before, but 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:40.479 neither so. It starts off with a distress at sea 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:45.480 and the coastguard or someone goes out and they rescue 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:50.160 this guy who had spent seven days odd on the 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:55.000 sort of inflatable life raft. His boat had capsized. Sadly 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.640 on that boat. Also, was his mother lost at sea. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:07.440 He came from a very wealthy I think Rhode Island family. 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.720 His maternal grandfather was sort of bastion of the Greek 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.920 American community, had pulled himself up by his bootstraps, started 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:22.040 a business, multi millionaire, the large house, the indoor pool, horses, 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:27.400 the whole shebang, and his mother. This guy who's rescued 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.480 his mother's lost at sea. The son, the guy who's rescued, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:37.840 is on the spectrum or on the neurodiverse spectrum. So 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.520 he quite matter of fact in a lot of the 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.520 lot of his ways, interviewed by police, and his matter 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:48.400 of fact, and either the police didn't know or didn't 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.560 factor in, or maybe they did factor in his. 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.560 Condition. His condition, and that alt is the way he 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.520 doesn't act out the emotions the way most. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.680 Of us would exactly exactly around the funeral, he's talking 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.800 to reporters and he's being very matter of fact and. 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:05.640 All that sort of stuff. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:12.360 Anyway, so he's interviewed by police. Now we subsequently learned 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.840 that previous to that, previous to this particular tragedy, he 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:21.040 was very close to the Greek American grandfather that I 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.000 mentioned before, the one who set up the house and 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:24.280 the forces and wys. 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:30.120 Of stuff, who also was murdered, Oh dear, and becoming 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:31.360 a bit of a theme. 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.280 And this young gentleman was the last to see Grandpa 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:37.640 was the last to see Grandpa. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:38.720 Oh my goodness. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.040 So it sets up and I won't sort of go 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:47.440 towards the spoiler, but it goes through the various investigations, 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:49.840 and it's one of those ones where they do it 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.200 a very good job of saying, there is very credible 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.760 evidence on this side, but there's also credible evidence on 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.480 this side, right, And perhaps some of this evidence can 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.880 be explained by his condition. 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.440 Yes, but maybe it's not. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.640 This is very interesting, isn't it. It's interesting how we 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:13.200 judge people by their demeanor, and we do it unconsciously. Unconsciously, 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.280 but I would call what you're describing a stronger version 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.040 of the Lindy Chamberlain effect. Lindy Chaplain and her husband 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.280 Michael were slightly unusual people. They were well, they were 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.040 religious for a start, which meant deeply religious, which meant 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.560 they had a certain sort of calmness about bad things 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.040 happening because they believe there was a higher purpose or whatever. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.560 And they had a calm demeanor when many of us 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.800 would not. So they didn't carry on, they didn't wail, 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.760 they didn't cry, they didn't sob. They were very self contained, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.640 and that played against them both because people looked at 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:54.040 them and said, oh, you're not upset enough. We don't 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.120 trust you. We think you did it. And then they 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.880 set out to prove they did it, and then they 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.560 ignored anything that was going to exonerate them, and search 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.800 and searched for any evidence or any witness that they 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.440 could use to make a case against them. It became 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.679 a very one sided investigation merely, I think, largely. I 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.960 think because people took a set against them early, or 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.480 maybe only one or two investigators took a set against 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.800 them early in the piece, and I think that their 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.600 demeanor had a lot to do with it. 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.440 It's interesting in this documentary because the young gentleman at 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.679 the center of it all will be in a police 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.159 interview room and the police will ask him a question, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.640 you know, what did you think of your mother? And 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.080 he will say, I love my mother very dearly, and 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.440 I probably shouldn't I probably shouldn't say this, but she's 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:49.760 got a lot of flaws. So she's got a lot 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:51.479 of flaws, and listop a couple of floors, and then 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.520 he stop himself and say, maybe I shouldn't have said that. 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.560 Should I have said that? Yeah? It builds up a 0:17:58.640 --> 0:17:59.920 very interesting lisk that does. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.240 Yeah, it is fascinating that because you can see how 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.400 somebody could just with lazy investigators or investigators who jump 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.040 to conclusions, that someone like that could just dig a 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.119 hole for themselves and be manipulated into doing so because 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.080 we're investigators just want to dick the box and say 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.399 we've got a result, we've got a conviction, we've got 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.720 an arrest, and then a conviction. They attempted to go 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.800 with the one they've got in the hand rather than 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.280 one that's out there in the wind that they can't find. 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.400 And we've seen this a lot of times. We do 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:32.919 see this, don't we have? 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.439 If I can go from the tragic to the comic, 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.679 I'll give you one last recommendation, Andrew and listeners, And 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.200 this is one on ABC I Views, so we'll move 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.720 away from from Netflix. And this is a series. It's 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.439 actually a series that goes across a wide swath of 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.879 human experience and it's called I was Actually there, Oh yes, 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.560 And it's events like the two thousand and four tsunami, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.720 the nine to eleven. They've got an episode about that, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.919 someone who's at nine to eleven, all of these sort 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:07.280 of ones, but the one that I would like to 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:13.240 bring to your attention, Andrew is one starring one Fairly Arrow. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.920 I saw this, Oh it is wonderful. Fairly Arrow the 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:23.440 sort of nightclub singer with the Gold Coast, the Gold Coast, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.120 a very Gold Coast story, isn't it. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:26.159 It is Fairly was. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.240 She was the big blonde girl who could sing a bit, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:34.200 and that took a pretty normal Gold Coast voice from 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:40.120 the eighties, yeah, eighties, early nineties. And then we see 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.080 Fairly Arrow the way she used today after thirty years 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:49.320 in America and many many, many years of plastic surgery 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.439 and a different accent. It's sort of shocking in a 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.960 slightly comical way. Well, but fairly what did Fairly do? 0:19:58.119 --> 0:19:58.560 John Well? 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.520 Slightly comic in a engaging way is pretty much the 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.840 way that this documentary. I was not in a newsroom 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:06.199 at this point. I don't know if that you were 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.280 sent up at any stage to cover this at the time. 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.840 But a Fairly came to police, or came to the 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.280 world's or the world's attention, Australia's attention when she when 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.800 she went missing, presumed kidnapped. 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:20.960 Presumed kidnapper. 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.480 This was a very very grave thing. The Gold coast 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.560 police pulled out all stops. One of them says in 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.440 the documentary, we had more of these computer terminals put 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.800 into our building in order to try to find Fairly 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:38.040 Fairly appears two or three days or weeks or. 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.280 Something found on the trust up beside of roads and weak. Yeah, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.920 but not very well trusted, not overly well trust, not 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.800 knocked about much. No well fed, looked well fed, and 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.320 not that distressed. 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.399 Not that distressed by a couple of young lads who 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:55.480 were in this documentary. They do a very good job 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:00.560 in this documentary of finding finding the appropriate people and 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.360 you know fairly. It goes to the to the police 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.920 and they interview on all that sort of stuff. She 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.920 then fronts the media almost immediately to tell her story 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.600 of horror, which is not all that horrible, not all 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.600 that horrible, because she's sort of half smiling because it 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.680 turns out gentle listener, I don't think this is a spoiler. 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.240 It turns out a gentle listener at Fairly and an 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.800 acquaintance of hers, had hashed a plot to hide her 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:33.399 away in a motel where where she had over the 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.520 course of the time when she was disappitud Pezza, she'd 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.240 get room service. She'd gone out to you know, take 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.440 the bins out, you know. She she'd accepted new towels 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:44.520 from the new towns. 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.160 I asked for some motels. I think she was having showers, 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:48.840 all of that sort of thing. And she was staying 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:52.439 there with a partnering crime if for such as we 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.120 could say, was a friendly fellow, will call him Cowboy 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.120 or something. He did have a nickname like that, and 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.120 he looked to me like a guy that had once 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.840 been ado writer or something. He's a slightly we saw 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:08.359 the old version of him, but you can tell he 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.000 was a swaggering sort of dude back in the day, 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.680 and you'd be tempted to wonder whether Fairly had done 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.040 a bolt with him. And then said, oh, hang on, 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.359 I want in a bit of trouble here because my 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.800 husband's at home and he's not gonna be happy. Perhaps 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.119 I've been abducted. Perhaps that's how it's got rolling. But 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:28.639 she sold it to the police and the public, or 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.560 tried to as they didn't take notice of my claims 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.440 that I was being stalked. Yes, I'm being stalked, and 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.600 no one took serious note of it, which might be true, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.000 and so then I had to stage my own disappearance 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.879 in order to prove that I was being stalked and 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:51.040 to get attention, to bring attention to the problem of 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.720 being stalked with a false claim. The logic is not waterproof. 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.359 You'll know, it's fairly oh some people in them. We 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.600 could unwoke past to call it sort of blonde logic. 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.359 But it was very silly stuff. And you do wonder 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.880 whether she was covering up a temporary liaison with the cowboy. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.600