1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm being stalked, and no one took serious note of it, 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: and so then I had to stage my own disappearance 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: in order to prove that I was being stalked, to 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: bring attention to the problem of being stalked. 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: That logic is not what a proof. 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 3: He was very close to the grandfather who also was murdered. 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 2: Oh dear, and becoming a bit of a theme. 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 3: And this young gentleman was the last to see Grandpa. 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rules's Life and Crimes. It's that time of 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: year again where we chat about what books to read 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: over summer, and possibly even what films to watch or 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: any other pastimes that crop up. 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: I'm here with the. 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: Podcast Long Suffering producer John Burton, whose full name is 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: longer than that, and he is going to take part 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: in this because I think he's a very keen reader 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: and a student of the printer word, among others. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 3: Welcome John, thank you kindly, among others and among others. 20 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 3: Today I'll be more talking about documentaries. Documentaries, I think sentries. 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 3: For those of you who are more audio and video wise. 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Oh excellent. That's good, because I'm not terribly wise. And 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: what would you recommend our listeners watch or get hold of. 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 3: So there's a few interesting ones that are kicking around 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: that are highly regarded, and I highly regard them as well. 26 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: One of them, probably one of the most timely, is 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: a documentary on Netflix about Sean puff Daddy Coombs. 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard of P Diddy. 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: P Diddy, and you may have been enthralled or at 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 3: least seen a passing reference or to the recent trials. 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: And I think he's just been convicted and sentenced to 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: something like fifty months or something like that. One of 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: the weird ways that Americans, you know, run their prison sentences, 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 3: sometimes two hundred years, very strange. But there is a 35 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 3: new documentary on Netflix called Sean Coombs The Reckoning, and 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 3: it's basically this sort of multi part portrait of his 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: rise and fall. It starts off with footage of him 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: hold up in a New York apartment, frantically calling his 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: attorney and looking over the road to a bunch of 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: law enforcement folk who are looking back at him. And 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 3: you always know it's going to be a good documentary 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 3: if they've got that sort of thing, if someone has 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: found a piece of vision of the person in question 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: in the moment of strife that you know is going 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 3: to engulf their life. You know, someone's onto something they've 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: dug somewhere good. 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does have that ring about it. This one 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: of It's somewhere sort of a modern cross between O. J. 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: Simpson and The Fall of Prince Andrew. 50 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 3: A bit, a little bit and throughout it it's a 51 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: mo two part series, but it goes through his rise, 52 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: but at every stage there are people, you know, warning, 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: you know, the sort. 54 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: Of the the against him about him, about him, that 55 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: he might be a smooth dude and good looking and 56 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: this and that and make money in the music business, 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: et cetera. Yes, but deep down he's a gangster with 58 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: some bad habits, deep down done not all that deep 59 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: PABs perhaps not just under the surface. 60 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: And what was his real name is Sean Combs? 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 3: Real name Sean Coombs sort of seen as a bit 62 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: of a wonder kind producer, seen as someone in the 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: early nineties that was finger on the pulse youthful music 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: and presario knew his way around a recording studio, but 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: interestingly was very early is caught up in some worrying things. 66 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: His group organized a charity basketball match which ended up 67 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: in a crush, too many people trying to get in. 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: Everyone wanted to be there, multiple people died. This was 69 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: seen by some as the making of him, because he 70 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: got his name out there, even if it was in 71 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: a bad way. 72 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: No such thing as bad publicity in some respects exactly so, 73 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: especially in the rap world. 74 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 3: No exactly so chouting his rise, but always with that 75 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 3: little caveat, and the caveats get bigger, the whispers get bigger. 76 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: True, it strikes me, you know, I've been around a 77 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: while and you can see the way that history sort 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: of changes, but doesn't change that the rise of the 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: rapper group, big money in it, therefore hangers on. You 80 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: have rappers with big mobs of people following them around 81 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: and all, you know, soaking up the money. Of course, 82 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: it's very reminiscent of the old time boxes, you know, 83 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: Liston and Ali and all the rest of them, all the. 84 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 2: Way back to Joe Lewis. These guys who were. 85 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: Black guys making a lot of money in a sort 86 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: of a new and exciting scene, which while boxing wasn't 87 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: new when it became televised and had radio coverage, etc. 88 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: It became monetized and that meant that boxers were fighting 89 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: for big purses. 90 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: Which gave us those huge. 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Heavyweight events, and it meant that these guys became household 92 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: names and they made millions of dollars instead of not 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: making millions of dollars. And it seems to me that 94 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: the rappers are to some extent a bit like that. 95 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: And there's always that suggestion that the boxes are mixed 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: up with the mob and with gangsters and with big 97 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: book makers and with dishonest stuff. Always that suggestion from 98 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: that goes all the way back to the bare knuckle 99 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: days really, and the rappers same thing. Where there's easy money, 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: there's crooks. 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: Well, everyone loves to hang around someone who's rich and 102 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 3: famous if they can as well. 103 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, that deadly mixtures of money, notoriety. You know, 104 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: the girls will follow the guys, all that stuff, It 105 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: all goes together. Yeah, So that's a very fertile feel 106 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: to make a documentary about. What other ones we're looking at? 107 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: So another Netflix one and it's called Fred and Rose West, 108 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 3: a British horror story. 109 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: Oh yes, Fred West. I'd forgotten about Fred West. It 110 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: is a horror story. 111 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 3: It is a horror story. And you know, one of 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: these ones that may have been on the periphery of 113 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: your knowledge because it was, you know, mid nineties. It 114 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: would have troubled the world pages probably back then, but 115 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: I don't think it was front page material in Australia. 116 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: No, I can recall it clearly. But then again, you know, 117 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm in the business and probably took more of an interest. 118 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: But very strange set up. They almost looked like each other, 119 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: Fred and Rosemary West. There was something very deeply creepy 120 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: about them. 121 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it should explain the plot. I think Fred West, 122 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 3: one of his and Ros's children went missing, didn't turn 123 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: up to school, and they found her body under some 124 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 3: paving stones in the backyard, and Fred was immediately brought 125 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: in for questioning and it unraveled. He thought he was 126 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: smarter than the cops. He had that sort of swagger 127 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 3: about him, and bit by bit they broke him down 128 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 3: and found out. 129 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: The true horror of what he was up to. 130 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 3: I think it was nine or more young women who 131 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: he had murdered, and they were all sort of had 132 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: a very much a type young women, runaways or sort 133 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: of girls who were. 134 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: Floating through life, hard to trace, hard to trace. 135 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: And this was at a time the actual murders happened 136 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: in the seventies, but the police investigation and they caught 137 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: up with him in the mid nineties, so they got 138 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: away with it for a long time. The first episode 139 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: is titled Fred, and again, like the Sean Combs docum entry, 140 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 3: they've got themselves. I think they must have got either 141 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: a police proof of evidence or the record of interview. 142 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: They certainly have a record of interview of him, and 143 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 3: it seems like it was the first time it's come 144 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: to light, so they've managed to get that. They've also 145 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: got footage of Fred going through his backyard with police 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: and going through the paving stones and saying, well, yes, 147 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: she's buried here, and this one's buried here, which is 148 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: quite confronting to look at. It's sort of old, analog, 149 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: grainy footage, but it's very compelling. And so the first 150 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: episode is called Fred, and so Fred obviously was brought 151 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: in and he was in it from the beginning. You know, 152 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: he was not getting free. But the second episode is 153 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 3: called Rose Rosebary as in the Wife, and it's it's 154 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 3: all about well, hang on, maybe Fred isn't the sole 155 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 3: butcher here, maybe his accomplice. And so it goes through 156 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 3: a Rosa's story, which in itself is upbringing bad married 157 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 3: Fred when she was fifteen or something, and goes through 158 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: and will. 159 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: Have been abused as a child. 160 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: It's inevitable, and goes through and it paints a picture 161 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 3: of Fred was not the only monster in this family. 162 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a terrible thing. It's probably second only. I 163 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: don't know if you have a hierarchy in these things, really, 164 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: but it's up there with that terrible story which became 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: a very brilliant book really about the Moore's murderers. The 166 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: book was called Beyond Belief and the Mores murderers were 167 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and they have also gone 168 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: into infamy back in the sixties and their crimes. They 169 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: killed a series of children up in Yorkshire and buried 170 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: them out on the moors. But that same aspect of 171 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: folly a French call it where you've got a couple, 172 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean a man and a woman, which is particularly 173 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: sinister and creepy and awful because most of us tend 174 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: to trust a couple. We tend to trust the fact 175 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: that a woman is present, that a couple won't be 176 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: abductors or killers. But when they are how sinister is it? 177 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: Because they can persuade children that they're okay, And children 178 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: who would not get into a car or except the 179 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: live from or whatever from a man alone, will happily 180 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: go when it's a couple. 181 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: And they are the subjects of that really quite chilling 182 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 3: photo or sets of photos, aren't they where black and white? 183 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: They're both sort of staring into camera, whiteyde and yeah, 184 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: very very creepy. 185 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: Very creepy. 186 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: She had the bleached blonde hair, Mayra Hindley and Ian 187 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Brady I think his name was. He had the quiff, 188 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: the sort of rock role quick, a lean face like 189 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: a ferrety face, hard looking Scottish in origin, I think. 190 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: And he'd come out of pretty ordinary circumstances in Scotland 191 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: or somewhere, and he'd been adopted out as a child, 192 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: which I have to say is a very common shared 193 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: attribute of a lot of people. I have done a 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: lot of bad things. Adopted boys haven't got a great record. 195 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: Mister Stinky was an adopted boy. Paul Stephen Haig, who's 196 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: still in jail in Victoria for killing seven people, is. 197 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: An adopted boy. And on it goes. 198 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: It's quite a long list of monsters and Ian Brady 199 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: was right at the top of it. Don't know about 200 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: Fred West. It would be interesting to know his background 201 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: because it will be very patchy. 202 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: Well, Rose was not his first wife. 203 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: No, what happened to the first one? There? 204 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: I asked, Well, certainly the well and this is where 205 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: it gets particularly horrifying. It he and his first wife 206 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 3: had a child, and that's one of the more horrific 207 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: parts of the documentary talking about that and how that 208 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: ended up. But to being on a slightly more flippant note, 209 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 3: Fred did have a very profound quiff. 210 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: He had. 211 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 3: He had the sort of rush back, crush back, and 212 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: then that that sort of morphed into a kind of 213 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 3: a nineteen nineties kind of lad look, even though it 214 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: was about, you know, fifties at the time. With the 215 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 3: lad look, the lad looks, oh yeah, read this. 216 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: Is up in the up in the Midlands or something. 217 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: I want to say, it's it's Canterbury or somewhere like 218 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 3: yeah yeah. And it was one of these ones where interestingly, 219 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: the documentary starts with a journal and this is always good. 220 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: It's a small town journo who was her first job 221 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: was to cover this thing and she did all the 222 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: right things, she asked the right questions, she did the 223 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: right searches, you know, really good on the ground journalism. 224 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: And then it ends up with a gentleman from the 225 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: tabloids in Fleet Street, I think from the Mirror talking 226 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: about paying jurors for their stories and how that had 227 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: the potential to disrail the eventual conviction. 228 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of Rose, Oh god, yeah. And that's on Netflix. 229 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: That's on Netflix. 230 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: Any other really creepy things you're going to watch? Is 231 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: anything just slightly lighter? 232 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: I'll give you one more creepy in one light? How's 233 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: that for creepy? Carmen family murders. The Carmen family murders. 234 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 3: This is a case I'd never heard of before, but 235 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,479 Speaker 3: neither so. It starts off with a distress at sea 236 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: and the coastguard or someone goes out and they rescue 237 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: this guy who had spent seven days odd on the 238 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: sort of inflatable life raft. His boat had capsized. Sadly 239 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: on that boat. Also, was his mother lost at sea. 240 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 3: He came from a very wealthy I think Rhode Island family. 241 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: His maternal grandfather was sort of bastion of the Greek 242 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 3: American community, had pulled himself up by his bootstraps, started 243 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: a business, multi millionaire, the large house, the indoor pool, horses, 244 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: the whole shebang, and his mother. This guy who's rescued 245 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: his mother's lost at sea. The son, the guy who's rescued, 246 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: is on the spectrum or on the neurodiverse spectrum. So 247 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 3: he quite matter of fact in a lot of the 248 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: lot of his ways, interviewed by police, and his matter 249 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: of fact, and either the police didn't know or didn't 250 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: factor in, or maybe they did factor in his. 251 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: Condition. His condition, and that alt is the way he 252 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: doesn't act out the emotions the way most. 253 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: Of us would exactly exactly around the funeral, he's talking 254 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 3: to reporters and he's being very matter of fact and. 255 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: All that sort of stuff. 256 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 3: Anyway, so he's interviewed by police. Now we subsequently learned 257 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: that previous to that, previous to this particular tragedy, he 258 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: was very close to the Greek American grandfather that I 259 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: mentioned before, the one who set up the house and 260 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: the forces and wys. 261 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: Of stuff, who also was murdered, Oh dear, and becoming 262 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: a bit of a theme. 263 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: And this young gentleman was the last to see Grandpa 264 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 3: was the last to see Grandpa. 265 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 266 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: So it sets up and I won't sort of go 267 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: towards the spoiler, but it goes through the various investigations, 268 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 3: and it's one of those ones where they do it 269 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: a very good job of saying, there is very credible 270 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: evidence on this side, but there's also credible evidence on 271 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: this side, right, And perhaps some of this evidence can 272 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: be explained by his condition. 273 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: Yes, but maybe it's not. 274 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: This is very interesting, isn't it. It's interesting how we 275 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: judge people by their demeanor, and we do it unconsciously. Unconsciously, 276 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: but I would call what you're describing a stronger version 277 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: of the Lindy Chamberlain effect. Lindy Chaplain and her husband 278 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: Michael were slightly unusual people. They were well, they were 279 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: religious for a start, which meant deeply religious, which meant 280 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: they had a certain sort of calmness about bad things 281 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: happening because they believe there was a higher purpose or whatever. 282 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: And they had a calm demeanor when many of us 283 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: would not. So they didn't carry on, they didn't wail, 284 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: they didn't cry, they didn't sob. They were very self contained, 285 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: and that played against them both because people looked at 286 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: them and said, oh, you're not upset enough. We don't 287 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: trust you. We think you did it. And then they 288 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: set out to prove they did it, and then they 289 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: ignored anything that was going to exonerate them, and search 290 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: and searched for any evidence or any witness that they 291 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: could use to make a case against them. It became 292 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: a very one sided investigation merely, I think, largely. I 293 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: think because people took a set against them early, or 294 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: maybe only one or two investigators took a set against 295 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: them early in the piece, and I think that their 296 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: demeanor had a lot to do with it. 297 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: It's interesting in this documentary because the young gentleman at 298 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 3: the center of it all will be in a police 299 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 3: interview room and the police will ask him a question, 300 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 3: you know, what did you think of your mother? And 301 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 3: he will say, I love my mother very dearly, and 302 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't I probably shouldn't say this, but she's 303 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: got a lot of flaws. So she's got a lot 304 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 3: of flaws, and listop a couple of floors, and then 305 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: he stop himself and say, maybe I shouldn't have said that. 306 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: Should I have said that? Yeah? It builds up a 307 00:17:58,640 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: very interesting lisk that does. 308 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is fascinating that because you can see how 309 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: somebody could just with lazy investigators or investigators who jump 310 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: to conclusions, that someone like that could just dig a 311 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: hole for themselves and be manipulated into doing so because 312 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: we're investigators just want to dick the box and say 313 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: we've got a result, we've got a conviction, we've got 314 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: an arrest, and then a conviction. They attempted to go 315 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: with the one they've got in the hand rather than 316 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: one that's out there in the wind that they can't find. 317 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: And we've seen this a lot of times. We do 318 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: see this, don't we have? 319 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 3: If I can go from the tragic to the comic, 320 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 3: I'll give you one last recommendation, Andrew and listeners, And 321 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: this is one on ABC I Views, so we'll move 322 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 3: away from from Netflix. And this is a series. It's 323 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 3: actually a series that goes across a wide swath of 324 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 3: human experience and it's called I was Actually there, Oh yes, 325 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: And it's events like the two thousand and four tsunami, 326 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: the nine to eleven. They've got an episode about that, 327 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 3: someone who's at nine to eleven, all of these sort 328 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: of ones, but the one that I would like to 329 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 3: bring to your attention, Andrew is one starring one Fairly Arrow. 330 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: I saw this, Oh it is wonderful. Fairly Arrow the 331 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: sort of nightclub singer with the Gold Coast, the Gold Coast, 332 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: a very Gold Coast story, isn't it. 333 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 2: It is Fairly was. 334 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: She was the big blonde girl who could sing a bit, 335 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: and that took a pretty normal Gold Coast voice from 336 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: the eighties, yeah, eighties, early nineties. And then we see 337 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: Fairly Arrow the way she used today after thirty years 338 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: in America and many many, many years of plastic surgery 339 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: and a different accent. It's sort of shocking in a 340 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: slightly comical way. Well, but fairly what did Fairly do? 341 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: John Well? 342 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: Slightly comic in a engaging way is pretty much the 343 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: way that this documentary. I was not in a newsroom 344 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 3: at this point. I don't know if that you were 345 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 3: sent up at any stage to cover this at the time. 346 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: But a Fairly came to police, or came to the 347 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: world's or the world's attention, Australia's attention when she when 348 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: she went missing, presumed kidnapped. 349 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: Presumed kidnapper. 350 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: This was a very very grave thing. The Gold coast 351 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: police pulled out all stops. One of them says in 352 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 3: the documentary, we had more of these computer terminals put 353 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 3: into our building in order to try to find Fairly 354 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 3: Fairly appears two or three days or weeks or. 355 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: Something found on the trust up beside of roads and weak. Yeah, 356 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: but not very well trusted, not overly well trust, not 357 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: knocked about much. No well fed, looked well fed, and 358 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: not that distressed. 359 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: Not that distressed by a couple of young lads who 360 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: were in this documentary. They do a very good job 361 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: in this documentary of finding finding the appropriate people and 362 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 3: you know fairly. It goes to the to the police 363 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 3: and they interview on all that sort of stuff. She 364 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: then fronts the media almost immediately to tell her story 365 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 3: of horror, which is not all that horrible, not all 366 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 3: that horrible, because she's sort of half smiling because it 367 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: turns out gentle listener, I don't think this is a spoiler. 368 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: It turns out a gentle listener at Fairly and an 369 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: acquaintance of hers, had hashed a plot to hide her 370 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 3: away in a motel where where she had over the 371 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: course of the time when she was disappitud Pezza, she'd 372 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 3: get room service. She'd gone out to you know, take 373 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: the bins out, you know. She she'd accepted new towels 374 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: from the new towns. 375 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: I asked for some motels. I think she was having showers, 376 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: all of that sort of thing. And she was staying 377 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: there with a partnering crime if for such as we 378 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: could say, was a friendly fellow, will call him Cowboy 379 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: or something. He did have a nickname like that, and 380 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: he looked to me like a guy that had once 381 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: been ado writer or something. He's a slightly we saw 382 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: the old version of him, but you can tell he 383 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: was a swaggering sort of dude back in the day, 384 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: and you'd be tempted to wonder whether Fairly had done 385 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: a bolt with him. And then said, oh, hang on, 386 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: I want in a bit of trouble here because my 387 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: husband's at home and he's not gonna be happy. Perhaps 388 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: I've been abducted. Perhaps that's how it's got rolling. But 389 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: she sold it to the police and the public, or 390 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: tried to as they didn't take notice of my claims 391 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: that I was being stalked. Yes, I'm being stalked, and 392 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: no one took serious note of it, which might be true, 393 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: and so then I had to stage my own disappearance 394 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: in order to prove that I was being stalked and 395 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: to get attention, to bring attention to the problem of 396 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: being stalked with a false claim. The logic is not waterproof. 397 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: You'll know, it's fairly oh some people in them. We 398 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: could unwoke past to call it sort of blonde logic. 399 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: But it was very silly stuff. And you do wonder 400 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: whether she was covering up a temporary liaison with the cowboy. 401 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know. We should say that 402 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 3: that fairly ended up being fined. Magistrate did not see 403 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 3: fit to impose any further sanction on her, but she 404 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 3: was fined something like twenty thousand dollars back in nineteen 405 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 3: a lot of money. Whereas I think her we say 406 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: partnering in crimes with air quotes on this one, because 407 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: I believe her friend was in no way But yeah, 408 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: he seemed, by the police or anything like that. 409 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: He seemed to be a fairly harmless fellow and thought 410 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: he was doing her a favor or something. Her husband 411 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: wasn't amused. 412 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: Her husband, who was a member of the singing group 413 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: the Kinsman, was he Yes, who you know it's funny 414 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: because you know they do what they do when they 415 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: grab all of the archival TV. And there's him in 416 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: his singing group on family Feud or right, and there 417 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 3: she is singing pop song with someone else on very 418 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 3: very daytime television at eleven am. 419 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: It's very much that. 420 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: It's a very Gold Coast nineteen eighties cheesy story in 421 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: every way it is. It's it could almost a good 422 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: The Coen Brothers could make it into a very funny film. 423 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: There's a sort of itonia or something like that. 424 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: Yes, it issue yea, and fairly as she was then, 425 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: it was sort of funny. She's this naive bit, daffy 426 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: bit and sort of likable in a way, a bit naughty, 427 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: you know all of that. 428 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: Anyway, it's spelt the end for us. 429 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: She went around basically being interviewed by everybody then, and 430 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: they would put her on pay some money to come on, 431 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: which she needed to pay the police to pay for 432 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: the cost, she think. And so she go on Willithy 433 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: or something and be absolutely grilled and crucified, which had 434 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: to happen naturally, and then she get a payment for 435 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: that and that to help pay off the debt. 436 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: And now thirty years later. She's a bit unhappy about that. 437 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: She says she thought it was a little bit of 438 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: an overreaction and she's really only trying to bring attention 439 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: to being. 440 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: She says, stooked, which she never knows she might have. 441 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 3: Been, never know anyway, Andrew, that is the sum total 442 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 3: of my recommendations. And our listeners aren't really here to 443 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 3: listen to me, so oh. 444 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: Yes, well they do want to hear about that stuff. Well, books, 445 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a little bit of a dip 446 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: into the self publishing phenomenon. Crime writing particularly attracts a 447 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: big range of writers from you know, wonderful writers because 448 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: in the end, a lot of writing is about crimes 449 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: of some sort, you know Shakespeare, These a lot of 450 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: things are right through though, to especially in true crime, 451 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: to the rankest I mean rankest of amateurs, and they 452 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: all think they can do it. And in these days, 453 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: because the technology is simple and easy and everyone's got 454 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: a laptop, so anybody can publish some sort of true 455 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: crime thing, ll do a podcast or whatever it is. 456 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: And so we have a range of books out on 457 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: the market, and I see many of them which are 458 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: either pretty rough homemade books done by amateurs. Some are 459 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: a bit better than that. They've gone to a vanity 460 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: publisher who's helped do a bit better cover and knock 461 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: it into shape a bit. And some are better again 462 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: and intrigued by this phenomenon, and a couple of them 463 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: are quite worth reading. Now there's one out called eleven Minutes, 464 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: which is a very good title. It's pretty sharp. 465 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: This one. It's quite well conceived by a guy called 466 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 2: Gregory M. Carroll. 467 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: And Gregory M. Carroll has a surname which is intriguing 468 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: because it is shared with a long dead armed robber 469 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: and probably killer in Melbourne called Ianravel Carrol. And Ian 470 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: Carroll was a boxer and a gunman who was without 471 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: doubt one of the half a dozen people who did 472 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: the Great Bookie Robbery in nineteen seventy six as I 473 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: think it was, and that was the Victorian Club in 474 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: the city in Melbourne. Great Bookly robbery, very well known. 475 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: We've talked about it many times in the podcast. A 476 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: big amount of cash officially one point three million, unofficially 477 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: maybe five or six million dollars in cash untraceable. It 478 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: has attracted a lot of time and attention and stuff 479 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: over the years and what we didn't know was that 480 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: Ian Carroll who ended up dead within within two or 481 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: three years because he had an argument with mad Dog Cox, 482 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: the guy that we call mad Dog Cox, whose real 483 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: name was not mad Dog nor Cox, and Cox shot 484 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: him dead down at Matalizer I think it was, and 485 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: legged it. And Carol was one of these very heavy 486 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: hitters and a good crook as they call him, mixed 487 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: up with the Paterson Dockers and the whole thing in 488 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: the boxing gym's and classic Melbourne crook. But his brother, Gregory, 489 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: his little brother, Gregory, has written this book. And Gregory 490 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: was a straight guy who wasn't a crook. He went 491 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: into the legit world and did whatever he did, and 492 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: quite a smart guy. And he's ended up i think 493 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: in retirement writing this book, which is basically about the 494 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: Great Bookie Robbery, which is why he's called eleven minutes 495 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: because that's how long it took, and he's amalgamated quite clever. 496 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: He's called it a novel and he's twisted the facts around. 497 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: The facts were a bit rubbery anyway about the Bookie robbery. 498 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: There's facts and these assumptions, and there's claims and counterclaims, 499 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: but he has the advantage of having known his brother, 500 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: so he perhaps had some sort of insight into his 501 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: character and the character of the people he ran with, 502 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: and he's been. 503 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 4: Able to apply that to the whole booky rob robbery story. 504 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 4: But he's also closely studied all the stuff that's been 505 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 4: written and said about it in the past and amalgamated 506 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 4: it into one pretty good readable book. Now, it would 507 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 4: be improved. 508 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: If it were edited a bit better, but it's pacey 509 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: and easy to read and tough, un laconic. The dialogue 510 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: is sparse but pretty good. It's sort of believable. It's 511 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: not lots and lots of it. It's pretty sharp, and 512 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you could sit here and pick holes in it, 513 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: but I don't see any point in doing that. It's 514 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: quite a good read for what is essentially a vanity publishing, 515 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: self pubblished thing. It's at the top end of it, 516 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: and I'd suggest that it's probably very close to being 517 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: as readable as Brian Brown The Actors books, which are 518 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: in his dotage. Brian Brown, who's now in his seventies, 519 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: is knocking out these best sellers that are rough, tough 520 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: crime books, and I think the first one was called 521 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: Sweet Jimmy a couple of years ago, and he's done 522 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: some more because he's been quite successful. And of course 523 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: the fact that he is Brian Brown and has a 524 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: profile and he is who he is means he can 525 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: sell books. And they're quite readable and they're quite good. 526 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: But Brian Brown has written them using the knowledge he 527 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: has of the film industry, so he sketches stuff in 528 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: pretty fast, and his dialogue he's there, and it's pretty 529 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: sparse and tough, and they're pretty good. They're not literature. 530 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: None of this stuff is you know, Elmore Leonard let 531 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: Alone anything better. But it's pretty readable and pretty good, 532 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: and you can see that it would easily translate into 533 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: film or a streamer into some sort of film. And 534 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: I think that Gregory Carroll's book isn't far behind Brian Brown, 535 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: but of course Brian Brown will always outsell Gregory Carroll 536 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: because one's a big time actrum Month's not. There have 537 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: been some other self published books. We've done one on 538 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: the podcast. It is called Bandit or Priest, written by 539 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: a man who calls himself Fabian Christian. That is about 540 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: a case we've covered in the podcast, and we took 541 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: the Fabian Christian about a robbery, a real life robbery 542 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: that happened in the nineteen eighties in the Ara. 543 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 4: Valley, probably Australia's biggest robbery, because it was of. 544 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: Gems, opals, diamonds, gold stuff, all sorts of stuff which 545 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: could have been worth anything up to thirty million then 546 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: in the eighties, and which now, of course you'd say 547 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: with inflation, might have been worth a hundred million whatever. 548 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: If those valuations. 549 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: Are right, it would be by far Australia's biggest ever. 550 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: Robbery, and yet it's one that's largely forgotten. No one 551 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: was killed, although it did attract tragedy. As we heard 552 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: in the recent podcast, the wife of the robbed man 553 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: died of fright within months of the robbery, and the 554 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: husband the robbed man, the wealthy man that was robbed, 555 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: he died of a heart condition fairly soon after as well. 556 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: So it wrecked their family. This robbery not a great book, 557 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: not a great piece of writing. But again it's a 558 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: novel based heavily on a true story, and therefore it 559 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: has some currency and it's worth it. It's a good 560 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: one to read on the beach. 561 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 3: And listeners will have I think just heard that they 562 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 3: will have by the time this comes out. 563 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: I hope so Fabian Christian is the author, and not 564 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: totally his full name. He has a different surname, but 565 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: it's worth a look. And I noticed it's another one 566 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: on my desk. This is Father Teacher, Child Killer, the 567 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: Abduction of Louise Bell and Michael Black, and it's by 568 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: Michael Madigan. And that is another sort of self published 569 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: type book or reasonably amateurs sort of book that is 570 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: a real story about a true case that some people 571 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: might find quite interesting. So we're looking at the sort 572 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: of knock about end of the spectrum here. 573 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: This literature. It ain't. 574 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: But if it's literature you want, John, yes, I suggest 575 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: having a look at some from overseas. There is an 576 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: Irish author, a very big deal Irish author called John 577 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: Boyne b O, Y and A and John Boyne, among 578 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: many other books, and he's written some big bestsellers. This 579 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: big deal he's written a series called the Elements series, 580 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: I think, and it's four books Earth, Wind, Air, and 581 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: Fire in whichever order. I actually think the first one 582 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: might be Water in the series. But each of these 583 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: books they're not terribly long, they're less than one hundred 584 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: thousand words, they might be eighty thousand, and each of 585 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: them they all. 586 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 2: Look like each other. 587 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: These books, they've got a similar design theme and they 588 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: all link. So the main protagonist in the first book, 589 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: he's a woman who leaves her husband, who's a disgraced politician, 590 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: and she cuts her hair and wears sippy clothes and 591 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: no makeup, and she goes and lives on a little 592 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: island off off Ireland to get away from publicity. And 593 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: there she runs into local people and so on, has 594 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: an affair with a young guy, and all this stuff 595 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: very readable, very good, and got a bit of edging 596 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: on it. It's quite edgy, and there's a bit of 597 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: blood in it because she's here because her husband has 598 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: turned out to be a criminal, you know, he's a 599 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: child molester in fact, and it's a very believable scenario 600 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: with a crime subplot. Then the second book, it picks 601 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: up one of the young guys from the island who 602 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: leaves that island to go to Dublin and then to 603 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: London or somewhere. He becomes a professional football player soccer player, 604 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: and tells his story, which is involves a crime involves them. 605 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: He's a gay kid who's. 606 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: Playing soccer just to make money, but he's trying to 607 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: impress one of his co players, and one of the 608 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: co players, this co player rapes a girl and it's 609 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: a moral dilemma crime story. It's quite riveting. And then 610 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: the third book interlocks with the first two, and so 611 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: on and so on. So each of these books interlocks 612 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: with the other, and yet each one has a different 613 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: main protagonist. Right, So I think it's a great series 614 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: to get hold of that having read one, you will 615 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: want to read the other three. Recommend John Boyne's Elements 616 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: series earth Wind, Fire and Watar, which sounds like an 617 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: old sort of progressive rock album, doesn't not. 618 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 3: Oh I was going to ask, is this a new 619 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 3: series of books or has this around for. 620 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: A little bit, around a little while. It wasn't published yesterday, 621 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: but it's not old. But John Boyn has been around 622 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: a long time and has sold a lot of books 623 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: and won big awards. He's a very big deal in 624 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: the Northern hemisphere. Irish writing is really kicking goals at 625 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: the minute. 626 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 3: Well, we had on the show the author of The Chain, 627 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 3: which did a while. 628 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: Adrian McKinty, Irish guy who lived in Melbourne and was 629 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: a friend of one of our former colleagues, David Power, 630 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: who worked with us great and good friends. And Adrian 631 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: is from I think it was from the North of 632 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: Ireland perhaps, and he lived in Melbourne because I think 633 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: his wife was an academic who worked here, and I 634 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: think he was driving ubers or taxis or something and 635 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: writing at the same time now in America and has 636 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: had a had a bit of a hit with a 637 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: couple of books, I think, and I may have kicked 638 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: on I hope. 639 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 3: Yes, Indeed, the chain sort of blew up. 640 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: The chain was. Yeah, it was a very well constructed thriller, 641 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: very American, and you could see that it would film 642 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: very well, very tense and tight, a couple. 643 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 3: Of different points of view, which is always fun. 644 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. True, it was as if you know, it was 645 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: very well done, as if a computer did it. 646 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 3: Really it was very sharp, although we should say, just 647 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 3: for the benefit of listeners, have written before the time 648 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: of AI. 649 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: Yes, true, no, no, no, not at all. I know 650 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't, but it's just really well grafted together. 651 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely. What else is on your reading list? 652 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 1: My reading list? I should plug someone that we might 653 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: talk to in the new year. The evergreen Australian journalist 654 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: and author. Gideon Hague now Gideon Hague, is a man 655 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: of prodigious writing talents and a brain as big as Tasma, 656 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: with whom I worked when he was a slip of 657 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: a boy many years ago at another place, and he 658 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: was a pale faced, thin little guy that used to 659 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: smoke too much, and I had a worried look and 660 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: always very very fine writer. He's become a most accomplished 661 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: writer as a fully fledged adult writer, A great writer 662 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: about cricket, particularly which is a passion of his, but 663 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 1: also about other things. And sometimes he's done some very 664 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: interesting books about relatively small subjects. I think he did 665 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: one on the history of the office, the office in Australia. 666 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: I think the office as in the office, an office building. 667 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 4: I mean. 668 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: And did he do one about the car industry or something. 669 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: I haven't read them all, of course, but he did 670 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: one called Certain Missions about a murder in Melbourne in. 671 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 2: The fifties that was a very big deal. 672 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: In the fifties about a young woman who was murdered 673 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: fair body found down at Port Melbourne or somewhere under 674 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: a boat, and the man charged with it was a 675 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: very popular well spoken, handsome radio announcer, and it was 676 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: a phenomenon at the time. My mother told me about it. 677 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: She said, you know, people were queuing up to go 678 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 1: to court to see this, this radio announcer in court. 679 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: Gideon wrote a very interesting book about that. His latest 680 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 1: offering is one called who is Wallace and Wallace Mister Wallace, 681 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: I remember this story happening at the time. Mister Wallace 682 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: lived and was jailed or locked up sorry in the 683 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: Arradale Asylum for the criminally Insane at Ararat for sixty 684 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: something years. He went in there in early middle age 685 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: after shooting a man in King Street, Melbourne in the 686 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. He shot him in the nineteen twenties somebody, 687 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: I think, two young men tried to bounce him about 688 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: something he said. He told him not to smoke in 689 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: a cafe and they waited for him outside and we're 690 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: going to give him a hard time, and he pulled 691 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: a revolver out and shot one of them. Now, he 692 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: didn't defend himself in court terribly well. He wasn't well defended. 693 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: He was found not guilty by virtue of insanity. He 694 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: wasn't overly insane, although he did say things like I 695 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: own Brazil and things like that, but he didn't act crazy. 696 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: And he ended up locked up. 697 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: Until he died at one hundred and six one hundred 698 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: and seven, and he became quite famous in the last 699 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,320 Speaker 1: decade of his life as the oldest effectively the oldest 700 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: prisoner anywhere in the western world, because he'd been locked 701 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: up for virtually a well for life, really, and that 702 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: was more than sixty years. And in the end he 703 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: was totally institutionalized. But he had a nice suit on 704 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 1: and eat the same food every day. He would play 705 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: chess and beat everybody in the place, and sometimes he 706 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: would smoke a pipe and they call him mister Wallace 707 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: to his face, and old Bill. 708 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 2: Behind his back. 709 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: Some people would call him Mensies because he looked like 710 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: Sir Robert Mensi had the big bushy eyebrows. That is 711 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: a most unusual book about a most unusual man. And 712 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: like Gideon's other sort of crime related books, it's small 713 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: but sort of perfect in its way. And if you 714 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: want something unusual, get hold of that and a couple 715 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: of the others. And that John brings us to the end. 716 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 2: Of our holiday. God, because we've rabbit it on far 717 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 2: too long. Thank you, Andrew, it's a pleasure. Thanks for listening. 718 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 719 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: true Crimeersustralia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 720 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au 721 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. 722 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 2: For advertising inquiries, go to news. 723 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 4: Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 724 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcasts sold 725 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: And if you want further information about this episode, links 726 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: are in the description.