WEBVTT - Why Australia has more guns than ever 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:09.840 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.680 December last year, in the wake of the Bondai terror attack, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.560 Anthony Alberinezi promised the biggest national gun buyback since Port Arthur. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.360 He wanted the states and territories to agree to new 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:23.279 gun laws by March and legislate them by July. But 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.680 that first deadline has passed and the national response is fracturing. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.840 Queensland and the Northern Territory are refusing the buy back, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.840 Tasmania is rejecting a cap on the number of firearms 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.800 a person can own, and our national Register is not 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.159 expected to be running until twenty twenty eight. The Royal 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:43.040 Commission into Anti Semitism has also waited, saying Australia should 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.800 waste no time implementing the buy back. So today, thirty 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.240 years after Port Arthur, we're returning to our January episode 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.519 when Nicole Johnson speaks with Eberde Bennett from the Australia 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.720 Institute on why Australia has more guns than ever and 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:06.720 why reform is still so difficult. It's Sunday, May. 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:14.680 Three, Ebanie, thanks for speaking with me. Can you lay 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.400 out for me what the government's proposing. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.679 Well after the Bondai massacre last year, national Cabinet met 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.520 and agreed to a number of gun law reforms, and 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.920 now the Government is implementing a bill that will hold 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:30.880 up its end of the bargain on there, and that 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.520 includes things like limiting the number of firearms that anyone 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.880 individual can hold, as well as limiting the open ended 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.840 kind of firearms licensing that we've seen in the past. Obviously, 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.880 the National buyback Scheme, and things like accelerating the work 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.440 of standing up a national Firearms Registry. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.320 The government will establish a national gun buyback scheme to 0:01:55.720 --> 0:02:01.160 purchase surplus newly banned and illegal firearms, the largest buyback 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.880 since the Howard government initiated one in nineteen ninety six. 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.920 So in nineteen ninety six we saw the banning of 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:14.200 semi automatic and automatic weapons, and again we'll see many 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.240 more restrictions introduced of the type of firearm that we 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.760 used in the Bondai massacre here and the Commonwealth's part 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.919 of that in this legislation will be, for example, restricting 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.480 the importation of reloading rifles and shotguns into Australia. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.960 Australia's gun laws were last substantially reformed in the wake 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.560 of the Port Arthur tragedy. The terrible events at Bondai 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.760 show we need to get more guns off our streets now. 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.160 In the aftermath of the Bondaie attack, one of the 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.800 most shocking revelations was the fact that the older gunman, 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.320 Sajid Akron that he had six legally registered guns even 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.639 though he was living in this city and his son 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.760 had been investigated by ASIO. Why was that able to 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.799 happen and how do these laws go about addressing that. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.000 Well, it's not exactly clear as yet how that happened, 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.080 but obviously it's evidence that our current gun laws as 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.640 they stand aren't working as intended. It appears like the 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.000 New South Wales authorities may not have had access to 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.960 that intelligence from ASIO, or the fact that one of 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.920 those perpetrators was known to ASIO in the way that 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:25.240 he was, And this legislation will introduce provisions that mean 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.519 that all of those licensing authorities at the state and 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.480 territory level will be able to access that kind of 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:37.080 intelligence from Commonwealth agencies like AZO and the Australian Criminal 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:38.080 Intelligence Commission. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.840 For example, if we could talk about the last time 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.480 that we had major gun reform after Port Arthur. What 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.080 changes did John Howard make and how do we know 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.880 about how they actually made the country safer? 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:56.840 Yeah, the National Firearms Agreement was historic and landmark legislation 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.800 and it's obviously still hugely popular with the public. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.600 The Prime Minister John Howard tonight detailed sweeping plans to 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.960 reform Australia's national gun laws. 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.520 Which could mean the introduction of a. 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.040 One off tax to buy back illegal weapons. 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.920 John Howard, in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.160 gathered all the states and territories and the National Firearms 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.400 Agreement did things like banning or restricting semi automatic and 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:25.480 automatic firearms, restricting the importation of those kinds of firearms. 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:31.880 We need to achieve a total prohibition on the ownership, possession, stale, 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.599 and importation of all automatic and semi automatic weapons. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:41.719 It included introducing mandatory licensing systems and background checks for 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.440 all license holders. It introduced things like rules for the 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.680 storage and use of firearms. Obviously, it implemented the National 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.920 Gun Buyback Scheme, which saw around six hundred and fifty 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.760 thousand firearms surrendered to the authorities that at the time 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.560 cost around three hundred. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.760 Million dollars to the Commonwealth. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.159 People could surrender their firearms, often to their local police station, 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.400 and then from the Australian Federal Police were in charge 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.600 of destroying those weapons. And obviously it included people who 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:22.160 owned guns that subsequently became illegal to own, or who 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.440 in the wake of Port Arthur just felt like I 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.080 don't really need these firearms anymore and I would like 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.200 to do my part by handing them in. And we 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:35.680 know that the National Firearms Agreement was incredibly successful because 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.800 in the years leading up to the Port Arthur massacre 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.000 we saw around thirteen mass shootings. In the eighteen years 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.000 preceding Port Arthur, in the wake of the National Firearms 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.480 Agreement being introduced, that number of mass shootings involving casualties 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.280 of five or more people dropped to zero. It had 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.600 a number of other great benefits for the Australian community 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:05.000 and their safety. So it accelerated the decline of homicides 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.640 by firearm in Australia and it also accelerated the decline 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.440 in suicides by firearms in Australia. So it had a 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:17.159 dramatic improvement in public safety. And it's really clear that 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.480 the fewer guns are in the Australian community. 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.440 The safer Australians. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:39.280 Are coming up. The unfinished business after port Arthur Ebony Well, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.880 John Howard's reforms had a big impact, there is some 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.960 unfinished business from that time. Could you paint a picture 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.600 of our current patchwork of gun laws around the country. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.880 Yeah. Well, as popular as the National Firearms Agreement was 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:57.200 at the time, it's really important to note that really 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:01.160 no state or territory or the Commonwealth indeed fully implemented 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.200 all of the details of that agreement. Each state and 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:08.120 territory still has a slightly different approach to gun laws, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.360 and really we're only as safe as our worst state 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:16.800 or territory. So, for example, there was never implemented the 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.640 agreement to prevent children from having access to firearms. Across 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.920 the board, in most states, there's no limit on the 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:25.320 number of guns. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.880 That any individual can hold. 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.920 For a long time, Western Australia was the only state 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.440 that had any kind of cap on the number of 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.680 guns that you could legally own, and it was only 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.200 December last year that New South Wales introduced its own caps. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.600 For example, thirty years after the fact, there is still 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:49.320 no National Firearms Registry, something that all law enforcement would 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.560 lack access to. But for example, some states like here 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.040 in the Act, all of their records of gun ownership 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:01.640 for their Gun Register are analogue. They're on paper essentially, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.680 so that makes the process of establishing the National Firearms 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:11.080 Register obviously much more difficult. We've also seen a steady 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.800 chipping away in states and territories at Australia's gun law 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.160 reforms over many years. People might not remember, but just 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.520 prior to the Bondai massacre, for example, the Men's government 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.560 in New South Wales was considering really relaxing New South 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.240 Wales gun laws in a deal with the Shooters and 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.320 Fishers Party. They were looking to enshrine a right to hunt, 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.120 to open crown lands to hunting and shooting, and to 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:41.840 legalize the ownership of silences and suppressors. They've obviously dropped 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.920 all of that kind of legislation and now committed to 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.840 much more restrictive gun laws. But it just shows you 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:54.360 that over time state governments have become complacent about Australia's 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.640 gun laws and that there are always elements of the 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.800 gun lobby who've been trying to weaken them over decades. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.560 And on this issue of how many guns were allowed 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.080 to have all the limits. Could you tell us in 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:11.560 some states how many guns we can actually own and 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:12.679 what's the maximum. 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.280 Yeah, so in Western Australia they had a cap of 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.440 five for most gun owners and that could increase up 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:20.280 to ten guns. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.319 In New South Wales, I think the. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.800 Cap of four, for example, applies across the board. But 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.520 currently Wa and New South Wales are the only states 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.599 that have caps on the number of guns an individual 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.600 can own, so all the other states and territories really 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.360 have no limits. And we know from the data that 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.200 we looked into from various police forces across Australia that 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.560 there are a number of people who own huge numbers 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.079 of guns and it's not necessarily you know, farmers who 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.240 are using them to control pest animals on their properties. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.360 For example. We know a large number of guns are 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.200 held in city and metropolitan areas and in New South Wales, 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.600 for example, there are close to one hundred people who 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.320 own over one hundred guns each, many of them in 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.760 the city. And obviously when it comes to the Bondai perpetrators, 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.880 they had six guns lived in the city and there's 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.600 a lot of people in the Australian public saying, you know, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.480 why do you need that many guns? 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.280 Ebany, you mentioned the National Register, and there's been calls 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.760 for this since Port Arthur. Why do we need one? 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.520 Obviously it's really important for law enforcement to know things 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.840 like who has a gun at a property or if 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.200 there are guns at a property, but it's also important 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.680 for the Australian public. When the Australia Institute tried to 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.359 find out how many guns there were legally owned in Australia, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.600 it was actually really difficult to find that information. It's 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.359 not publicly available. Some states and territories really had difficulty 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:55.840 locating that information. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:57.559 It wasn't easily accessible. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.200 The Northern Territory just didn't respond at all to our 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.400 requests for that kind of information. So it's I think 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.000 really important for the public to know, not you know, 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.520 the personal home address of every gun own not obviously 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.720 that's only for law enforcement, but just knowing in general 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.800 how many guns there are in the community and roughly 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.439 where they are are they in your suburb? I think, 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:24.760 you know, should be publicly accessible information for Australians. 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.760 So, Ebanie, on that point, what is it that you've 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.960 found out about the numbers and how did they end 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.320 up increasing after the buyback scheme in the nineties. 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.119 Yeah, so obviously the number of guns in the community 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:43.600 has dramatically increased. It's now hovering around four million legally 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.320 owned guns in Australia. And we've also found that a 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.840 huge number of guns legally owned guns are stolen every year. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:54.960 When we looked at the number of guns that had 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.719 been stolen over time, it equated. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.120 To roughly one every four hours. 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.920 And law enforcement has said that the theft of legally 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:09.280 owned firearms is the biggest single source of illegal guns 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.400 in the community. And we know that police I think, 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.920 only recover around a third of those stolen weapons. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.480 So Ebonie John Howard was able to pretty easily change 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.720 Australia's gun laws and was celebrated for it ever since. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.120 But how's the debate changed to the point where getting 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.319 both sides of politics to agree on stricter gun control 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:32.960 seems almost impossible. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:33.720 Yeah. 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:38.080 I was just really saddened to see John Howard come 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.280 out in the wake of the Bondai massacre and call 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:47.920 gun law reform a distraction. Obviously, gun law reform can't 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880 stop hate, it can't stop anti semitism, but it can 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.880 stop the kind of hate that we saw in Bondi 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.720 from turning into the horror that we saw in Bondai. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.160 And I think John Howard's intervention here to label a 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.880 gun law reform just a distraction really shows that the 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.760 Coalition is really willing to trash its political legacy on 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.079 gun law reform in the interests of politicizing this issue 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:23.959 and making life more difficult for the Labor government. Obviously, 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.440 there are big parts of the Nationals constituency, rural people, 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:34.080 farmers who do want access to guns, and increasingly in 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.680 recent years we've seen the Nationals really as the tail 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:42.720 that's wagging the coalition dog. Thankfully, Australia does not kind 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.840 of fetishize gun ownership in the way that we've seen 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.000 in the United States, for example, but it's really clear 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.640 the kind of retric employed by the NRA and the 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.520 gun lobby, and to see Australian political debate all the 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.600 time and more and more frequently. It's only a few 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.760 years since we saw Pauline Hanson's One Nation, for example, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.840 caught on tape trying to solicit tens of millions of 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.640 dollars of donations from the NRA in exchange for weakening 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:11.920 Australia's gun laws. 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.200 But the Australian public really overwhelmingly. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.440 Supports stricter gun laws and it's widely considered, i think, 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.440 the biggest and most positive legacy of the Howard government, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.200 so it's really sad to see them abandon that for 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.720 what looks like pure electoral politics. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.920 Ebanie, thanks for speaking with us on seven AM. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:38.320 Thank you. 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.640 I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening seven am. We'll be 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.040 back tomorrow with a new episode where i interview Antoinette Latoufe. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.800 I'm taking on the ABC and what audiences are losing 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:01.360 in mainstream media. 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.240 This is across institutions. It's not just the media. 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:06.720 There's a real trust deficite. 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.400 There's very low historical levels of trust in government, historical 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.560 levels trust in business, but also in the media. I 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.200 think it's because it's been so plain to see, particularly 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.160 in the past two and a half years, the sorts 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.920 of lines and retrick that we're being fed by legacy 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.440 institutions and even our politicians where we're like, hey, are 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:26.720 you trying to gaslight us. 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:27.320 In real time? 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.000 That'll be in your feet tomorrow. See you then,