Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In
Speaker 1: December last year, in the wake of the Bondai terror attack,
Speaker 1: Anthony Alberinezi promised the biggest national gun buyback since Port Arthur.
Speaker 1: He wanted the states and territories to agree to new
Speaker 1: gun laws by March and legislate them by July. But
Speaker 1: that first deadline has passed and the national response is fracturing.
Speaker 1: Queensland and the Northern Territory are refusing the buy back,
Speaker 1: Tasmania is rejecting a cap on the number of firearms
Speaker 1: a person can own, and our national Register is not
Speaker 1: expected to be running until twenty twenty eight. The Royal
Speaker 1: Commission into Anti Semitism has also waited, saying Australia should
Speaker 1: waste no time implementing the buy back. So today, thirty
Speaker 1: years after Port Arthur, we're returning to our January episode
Speaker 1: when Nicole Johnson speaks with Eberde Bennett from the Australia
Speaker 1: Institute on why Australia has more guns than ever and
Speaker 1: why reform is still so difficult. It's Sunday, May.
Speaker 2: Three, Ebanie, thanks for speaking with me. Can you lay
Speaker 2: out for me what the government's proposing.
Speaker 3: Well after the Bondai massacre last year, national Cabinet met
Speaker 3: and agreed to a number of gun law reforms, and
Speaker 3: now the Government is implementing a bill that will hold
Speaker 3: up its end of the bargain on there, and that
Speaker 3: includes things like limiting the number of firearms that anyone
Speaker 3: individual can hold, as well as limiting the open ended
Speaker 3: kind of firearms licensing that we've seen in the past. Obviously,
Speaker 3: the National buyback Scheme, and things like accelerating the work
Speaker 3: of standing up a national Firearms Registry.
Speaker 4: The government will establish a national gun buyback scheme to
Speaker 4: purchase surplus newly banned and illegal firearms, the largest buyback
Speaker 4: since the Howard government initiated one in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3: So in nineteen ninety six we saw the banning of
Speaker 3: semi automatic and automatic weapons, and again we'll see many
Speaker 3: more restrictions introduced of the type of firearm that we
Speaker 3: used in the Bondai massacre here and the Commonwealth's part
Speaker 3: of that in this legislation will be, for example, restricting
Speaker 3: the importation of reloading rifles and shotguns into Australia.
Speaker 4: Australia's gun laws were last substantially reformed in the wake
Speaker 4: of the Port Arthur tragedy. The terrible events at Bondai
Speaker 4: show we need to get more guns off our streets now.
Speaker 2: In the aftermath of the Bondaie attack, one of the
Speaker 2: most shocking revelations was the fact that the older gunman,
Speaker 2: Sajid Akron that he had six legally registered guns even
Speaker 2: though he was living in this city and his son
Speaker 2: had been investigated by ASIO. Why was that able to
Speaker 2: happen and how do these laws go about addressing that.
Speaker 3: Well, it's not exactly clear as yet how that happened,
Speaker 3: but obviously it's evidence that our current gun laws as
Speaker 3: they stand aren't working as intended. It appears like the
Speaker 3: New South Wales authorities may not have had access to
Speaker 3: that intelligence from ASIO, or the fact that one of
Speaker 3: those perpetrators was known to ASIO in the way that
Speaker 3: he was, And this legislation will introduce provisions that mean
Speaker 3: that all of those licensing authorities at the state and
Speaker 3: territory level will be able to access that kind of
Speaker 3: intelligence from Commonwealth agencies like AZO and the Australian Criminal
Speaker 3: Intelligence Commission.
Speaker 2: For example, if we could talk about the last time
Speaker 2: that we had major gun reform after Port Arthur. What
Speaker 2: changes did John Howard make and how do we know
Speaker 2: about how they actually made the country safer?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the National Firearms Agreement was historic and landmark legislation
Speaker 3: and it's obviously still hugely popular with the public.
Speaker 4: The Prime Minister John Howard tonight detailed sweeping plans to
Speaker 4: reform Australia's national gun laws.
Speaker 1: Which could mean the introduction of a.
Speaker 5: One off tax to buy back illegal weapons.
Speaker 3: John Howard, in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre,
Speaker 3: gathered all the states and territories and the National Firearms
Speaker 3: Agreement did things like banning or restricting semi automatic and
Speaker 3: automatic firearms, restricting the importation of those kinds of firearms.
Speaker 6: We need to achieve a total prohibition on the ownership, possession, stale,
Speaker 6: and importation of all automatic and semi automatic weapons.
Speaker 3: It included introducing mandatory licensing systems and background checks for
Speaker 3: all license holders. It introduced things like rules for the
Speaker 3: storage and use of firearms. Obviously, it implemented the National
Speaker 3: Gun Buyback Scheme, which saw around six hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: thousand firearms surrendered to the authorities that at the time
Speaker 3: cost around three hundred.
Speaker 5: Million dollars to the Commonwealth.
Speaker 3: People could surrender their firearms, often to their local police station,
Speaker 3: and then from the Australian Federal Police were in charge
Speaker 3: of destroying those weapons. And obviously it included people who
Speaker 3: owned guns that subsequently became illegal to own, or who
Speaker 3: in the wake of Port Arthur just felt like I
Speaker 3: don't really need these firearms anymore and I would like
Speaker 3: to do my part by handing them in. And we
Speaker 3: know that the National Firearms Agreement was incredibly successful because
Speaker 3: in the years leading up to the Port Arthur massacre
Speaker 3: we saw around thirteen mass shootings. In the eighteen years
Speaker 3: preceding Port Arthur, in the wake of the National Firearms
Speaker 3: Agreement being introduced, that number of mass shootings involving casualties
Speaker 3: of five or more people dropped to zero. It had
Speaker 3: a number of other great benefits for the Australian community
Speaker 3: and their safety. So it accelerated the decline of homicides
Speaker 3: by firearm in Australia and it also accelerated the decline
Speaker 3: in suicides by firearms in Australia. So it had a
Speaker 3: dramatic improvement in public safety. And it's really clear that
Speaker 3: the fewer guns are in the Australian community.
Speaker 5: The safer Australians.
Speaker 2: Are coming up. The unfinished business after port Arthur Ebony Well,
Speaker 2: John Howard's reforms had a big impact, there is some
Speaker 2: unfinished business from that time. Could you paint a picture
Speaker 2: of our current patchwork of gun laws around the country.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, as popular as the National Firearms Agreement was
Speaker 3: at the time, it's really important to note that really
Speaker 3: no state or territory or the Commonwealth indeed fully implemented
Speaker 3: all of the details of that agreement. Each state and
Speaker 3: territory still has a slightly different approach to gun laws,
Speaker 3: and really we're only as safe as our worst state
Speaker 3: or territory. So, for example, there was never implemented the
Speaker 3: agreement to prevent children from having access to firearms. Across
Speaker 3: the board, in most states, there's no limit on the
Speaker 3: number of guns.
Speaker 5: That any individual can hold.
Speaker 3: For a long time, Western Australia was the only state
Speaker 3: that had any kind of cap on the number of
Speaker 3: guns that you could legally own, and it was only
Speaker 3: December last year that New South Wales introduced its own caps.
Speaker 3: For example, thirty years after the fact, there is still
Speaker 3: no National Firearms Registry, something that all law enforcement would
Speaker 3: lack access to. But for example, some states like here
Speaker 3: in the Act, all of their records of gun ownership
Speaker 3: for their Gun Register are analogue. They're on paper essentially,
Speaker 3: so that makes the process of establishing the National Firearms
Speaker 3: Register obviously much more difficult. We've also seen a steady
Speaker 3: chipping away in states and territories at Australia's gun law
Speaker 3: reforms over many years. People might not remember, but just
Speaker 3: prior to the Bondai massacre, for example, the Men's government
Speaker 3: in New South Wales was considering really relaxing New South
Speaker 3: Wales gun laws in a deal with the Shooters and
Speaker 3: Fishers Party. They were looking to enshrine a right to hunt,
Speaker 3: to open crown lands to hunting and shooting, and to
Speaker 3: legalize the ownership of silences and suppressors. They've obviously dropped
Speaker 3: all of that kind of legislation and now committed to
Speaker 3: much more restrictive gun laws. But it just shows you
Speaker 3: that over time state governments have become complacent about Australia's
Speaker 3: gun laws and that there are always elements of the
Speaker 3: gun lobby who've been trying to weaken them over decades.
Speaker 2: And on this issue of how many guns were allowed
Speaker 2: to have all the limits. Could you tell us in
Speaker 2: some states how many guns we can actually own and
Speaker 2: what's the maximum.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in Western Australia they had a cap of
Speaker 3: five for most gun owners and that could increase up
Speaker 3: to ten guns.
Speaker 5: In New South Wales, I think the.
Speaker 3: Cap of four, for example, applies across the board. But
Speaker 3: currently Wa and New South Wales are the only states
Speaker 3: that have caps on the number of guns an individual
Speaker 3: can own, so all the other states and territories really
Speaker 3: have no limits. And we know from the data that
Speaker 3: we looked into from various police forces across Australia that
Speaker 3: there are a number of people who own huge numbers
Speaker 3: of guns and it's not necessarily you know, farmers who
Speaker 3: are using them to control pest animals on their properties.
Speaker 3: For example. We know a large number of guns are
Speaker 3: held in city and metropolitan areas and in New South Wales,
Speaker 3: for example, there are close to one hundred people who
Speaker 3: own over one hundred guns each, many of them in
Speaker 3: the city. And obviously when it comes to the Bondai perpetrators,
Speaker 3: they had six guns lived in the city and there's
Speaker 3: a lot of people in the Australian public saying, you know,
Speaker 3: why do you need that many guns?
Speaker 2: Ebany, you mentioned the National Register, and there's been calls
Speaker 2: for this since Port Arthur. Why do we need one?
Speaker 3: Obviously it's really important for law enforcement to know things
Speaker 3: like who has a gun at a property or if
Speaker 3: there are guns at a property, but it's also important
Speaker 3: for the Australian public. When the Australia Institute tried to
Speaker 3: find out how many guns there were legally owned in Australia,
Speaker 3: it was actually really difficult to find that information. It's
Speaker 3: not publicly available. Some states and territories really had difficulty
Speaker 3: locating that information.
Speaker 5: It wasn't easily accessible.
Speaker 3: The Northern Territory just didn't respond at all to our
Speaker 3: requests for that kind of information. So it's I think
Speaker 3: really important for the public to know, not you know,
Speaker 3: the personal home address of every gun own not obviously
Speaker 3: that's only for law enforcement, but just knowing in general
Speaker 3: how many guns there are in the community and roughly
Speaker 3: where they are are they in your suburb? I think,
Speaker 3: you know, should be publicly accessible information for Australians.
Speaker 2: So, Ebanie, on that point, what is it that you've
Speaker 2: found out about the numbers and how did they end
Speaker 2: up increasing after the buyback scheme in the nineties.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so obviously the number of guns in the community
Speaker 3: has dramatically increased. It's now hovering around four million legally
Speaker 3: owned guns in Australia. And we've also found that a
Speaker 3: huge number of guns legally owned guns are stolen every year.
Speaker 3: When we looked at the number of guns that had
Speaker 3: been stolen over time, it equated.
Speaker 5: To roughly one every four hours.
Speaker 3: And law enforcement has said that the theft of legally
Speaker 3: owned firearms is the biggest single source of illegal guns
Speaker 3: in the community. And we know that police I think,
Speaker 3: only recover around a third of those stolen weapons.
Speaker 2: So Ebonie John Howard was able to pretty easily change
Speaker 2: Australia's gun laws and was celebrated for it ever since.
Speaker 2: But how's the debate changed to the point where getting
Speaker 2: both sides of politics to agree on stricter gun control
Speaker 2: seems almost impossible.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was just really saddened to see John Howard come
Speaker 3: out in the wake of the Bondai massacre and call
Speaker 3: gun law reform a distraction. Obviously, gun law reform can't
Speaker 3: stop hate, it can't stop anti semitism, but it can
Speaker 3: stop the kind of hate that we saw in Bondi
Speaker 3: from turning into the horror that we saw in Bondai.
Speaker 3: And I think John Howard's intervention here to label a
Speaker 3: gun law reform just a distraction really shows that the
Speaker 3: Coalition is really willing to trash its political legacy on
Speaker 3: gun law reform in the interests of politicizing this issue
Speaker 3: and making life more difficult for the Labor government. Obviously,
Speaker 3: there are big parts of the Nationals constituency, rural people,
Speaker 3: farmers who do want access to guns, and increasingly in
Speaker 3: recent years we've seen the Nationals really as the tail
Speaker 3: that's wagging the coalition dog. Thankfully, Australia does not kind
Speaker 3: of fetishize gun ownership in the way that we've seen
Speaker 3: in the United States, for example, but it's really clear
Speaker 3: the kind of retric employed by the NRA and the
Speaker 3: gun lobby, and to see Australian political debate all the
Speaker 3: time and more and more frequently. It's only a few
Speaker 3: years since we saw Pauline Hanson's One Nation, for example,
Speaker 3: caught on tape trying to solicit tens of millions of
Speaker 3: dollars of donations from the NRA in exchange for weakening
Speaker 3: Australia's gun laws.
Speaker 5: But the Australian public really overwhelmingly.
Speaker 3: Supports stricter gun laws and it's widely considered, i think,
Speaker 3: the biggest and most positive legacy of the Howard government,
Speaker 3: so it's really sad to see them abandon that for
Speaker 3: what looks like pure electoral politics.
Speaker 2: Ebanie, thanks for speaking with us on seven AM.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening seven am. We'll be
Speaker 1: back tomorrow with a new episode where i interview Antoinette Latoufe.
Speaker 1: I'm taking on the ABC and what audiences are losing
Speaker 1: in mainstream media.
Speaker 7: This is across institutions. It's not just the media.
Speaker 5: There's a real trust deficite.
Speaker 7: There's very low historical levels of trust in government, historical
Speaker 7: levels trust in business, but also in the media. I
Speaker 7: think it's because it's been so plain to see, particularly
Speaker 7: in the past two and a half years, the sorts
Speaker 7: of lines and retrick that we're being fed by legacy
Speaker 7: institutions and even our politicians where we're like, hey, are
Speaker 7: you trying to gaslight us.
Speaker 5: In real time?
Speaker 1: That'll be in your feet tomorrow. See you then,