1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: It's Friday, December five, twenty twenty five. Medical specialists who 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: overcharge their patients are on notice, with the federal government 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: preparing to require doctors to disclose their fees on a 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: public website and also considering regulation of fees. A new 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollar wast incinerator was supposed to produce 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: low carbon energy, but it's spewing out emissions at twice 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the rate of a nearby gas fired power station. Neighbors 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: are furious, and the case is raising new questions about 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: whether waste to electricity plants should be part of our 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: low carbon energy future. Those stories are exclusives live now 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: at the Australian dot com dot au. It's the case 13 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: that we've got all of Australia talking. The Australian's investigative 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: podcast Shadow of Doubt in twenty twenty three raised serious 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: doubts over the convictions of parents nicknamed Australia's Most Evil. 16 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: They were accused of grotesque sexual abuse of their own daughter, 17 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: but journalist Richard Gilliad revealed inconsistencies, recovered memories and some 18 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: huge twists. Now the case is the subject of a 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: legal petition to the Governor of New South Wales today, 20 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: could these convictions be overturned? Richard Gilliot is one of 21 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: Australia's most experienced investigative reporters, and today in The Australian 22 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: he's returning to a story that became the subject of 23 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: his top rating podcast Shadow of Doubt a couple of 24 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: years ago. Richard, this story is about two parents who 25 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: are serving very long jail sentences for the sexual abuse 26 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: of their daughter, something they've always denied. What's happening now, 27 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: what's the new development in this case? 28 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: Well, Claire, Largely as a result of the podcast, a 29 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: legal team representing the mother has filed a petition with 30 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: the Governor of New South Wales requesting a pardon or 31 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: a judicial inquiry into the case, based on new and 32 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: fresh evidence, quite a bit of which was revealed by 33 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 2: the podcast. 34 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, this couple, who we've called Martin and Susan Johnson 35 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: were not allowed to identify them for legal reasons. They 36 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: were convicted in the District Court of New South Wales. 37 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: Then their convictions were upheld by the Court of Criminal 38 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Appeal in that state. And then the High Court declined 39 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: to hear their case. This is really a lastich effort 40 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: for them to get out of jail, isn't it. 41 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: It is, and it's the same process that Kathleen Folbig 42 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: used successfully, in fact, which resulted in a judicial inquiry 43 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: three years ago which released her after twenty years in 44 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: prison for the murder of her children. So there is 45 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: certainly a precedent for this sort of inquiry not only 46 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: to be held, but to show that there was in 47 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 2: fact a miscarriage of justice. 48 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: Kathleen Folbig, though, had the support of dozens of scientists 49 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: who questioned the veracity of her conviction. This couple, Martin 50 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: and Susan Johnson, are really alone, aren't they. 51 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: Well, because of the nature of the crimes that their 52 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: daughter accused them of, which was essentially thirteen years of 53 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: extremely sadistic abuse, which they say never happened. Because of 54 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: the nature of that, yes, they have not had a 55 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: lot of support in pursuing their claims of innocence. However, 56 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: this petition, as I understand it, does contain expert reports 57 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: from four very senior medical and scientific experts who are 58 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: really raising quite serious doubts about significant parts of the 59 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 2: prosecution case. 60 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: Let's just talk a little bit about who these people are, 61 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: what were they accused of doing, and what's been their 62 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: life since they were convicted. 63 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: They were involved in athletics and they trained their children. 64 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: They had four children, three daughters and a son, and 65 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: the father was the coach and also coached a lot 66 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 2: of other young sports people. They held sporting camps on 67 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: their property over many many years. Their daughter originally went 68 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: into a psychea hospital because she was suffering severe depression. 69 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: She said that she'd. 70 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 2: Been raped by a coach, not her father, another man, 71 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: and then after about five months of counseling and really 72 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: severe suicidality, she began making allegations against her father, and 73 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: then began making allegations against her mother, and eventually after 74 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: about two years, she was basically saying that she had 75 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: been sexually assaulted by her father from the age of 76 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: five all the way through to eighteen in the most 77 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: sadistic way, being tortured with tools, locked in a box 78 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: in the garage, held in a chicken shed. The parents 79 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: were described in the media as the most evil parents 80 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: in Australia when they were convicted, and the sentences were 81 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: as you might expect extremely severe. The father is serving 82 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: the longest jail term in Australian history for child abuse, 83 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: forty eight years, and the mother is serving a sixteen 84 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: year sentence. 85 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: When we were working up this podcast, ideas as a 86 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: story that you've worked on for many years, you're the 87 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: most meticulous journalist, I've got to say, Richard, that I've 88 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: ever worked with, and you think about things very deeply. 89 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: We had a lot of conversations about your doubt that 90 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: you were not sure what the truth was in all 91 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: of this, and you decided to just present all your doubts. 92 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: That's why the podcast is called Shadow of Doubt. What 93 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: were some of the things, What were some of the 94 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: facts that you discovered that made you unsure whether this was, 95 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: as it initially seemed on the surface, a possible miscarriage 96 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: of justice. 97 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: Well, there's always doubt in these stories. 98 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: And so in this case, the daughter who accused the 99 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 2: parents was backed by one of her sisters, who told 100 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 2: the court that the father, when he used to conduct 101 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: sports massages, had sexually assaulted her. 102 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: And so even though that sister didn't. 103 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: Corroborate any of her sister's allegations or had never noticed, 104 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: in fact, no one had ever noticed any of the 105 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: signs of this torture and statistic abuse that was said 106 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: to have been going on. But the sister's testimony certainly 107 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: introduced an element where you've got two sisters accusing the 108 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: same parent. In addition to that, in the course of 109 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: researching the story, I learned that the father forty years 110 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: ago had been a high school teacher. He had been 111 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: accused back then of brooming some senior girl students. I 112 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: spoke to one of those women, and look, certainly that 113 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: raised a whole lot of issues, And I think in 114 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: retrospect it was pivotal in this case in the sense 115 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: that it made I think the police and perhaps the 116 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: counsel is determined to go after him. 117 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: And it's clear from the medical. 118 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: Records that the daughter who accused him of torture, her 119 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: memories of abuse didn't occur until she found out about 120 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: his history as a teacher, and appear to have been 121 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: triggered by that knowledge. And so that just introduced this 122 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: whole element of ambiguity into the whole case. 123 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: Really, yeah, some of those memories flooded out in or 124 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: after counseling sessions. This is a phenomenon known as recovered memory. 125 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: It was big in the eighties, Richard, and I thought 126 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: it had gone away until you started working on this case. 127 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: Where there's a theory that memories lie deep within us 128 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: and sometimes can only be tapped in the course of 129 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: counseling or in the course of a conversation, and then 130 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: the memory comes back. In this matter, recovered memories that 131 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: this woman didn't know that she had of childhood abuse 132 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: were used as evidence against her parents. Did you ultimately 133 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that these recovered memories were genuine 134 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: or that they were perhaps ilicited in an unethical way 135 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: by practitioners. 136 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: Well, this phenomenon of people going into counseling and being 137 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 2: told to think back to their childhood and over many 138 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: months of treatment, beginning to have glimmers of memory, it's 139 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: been problematic in counseling for a century, and it did 140 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: seem to die down in the nineties, But my sense 141 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: is that there's a large number of counselors who still 142 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: do this kind of excavating of memories. I should say 143 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: that the daughter herself denied that she had ever recovered 144 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: repressed memories, but the psychiatrist who treated her made it 145 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: quite clear. In her trial testimony that this young woman 146 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: had blocked out her memory of these events with her 147 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: father and they'd all come back to her as an adult. 148 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: So that is, in fact one of the principal issues 149 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: that's been raised in this petition to the governor. A 150 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: neuroscience expert, and memory expert and a pharmacology expert have all, 151 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: as I understand it, written reports stating that the drug 152 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: regime this young woman was put on and the sorts 153 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: of counseling that she was administered over two years or more, 154 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: could have caused her to go into delusional states where 155 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: she was confabulating and experiencing false memories of events that 156 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: never happened, but which she believes happened. And that's one 157 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: of the keys in these cases is that the person 158 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: who's had these memories believes these events happened, and so 159 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,359 Speaker 2: in the witness box they can be extremely convincing. 160 00:10:44,720 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: Coming up more of my conversation with Richard Gilliot. Your 161 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: podcast for The Australian was phenomenally successful. I think even 162 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: we were surprised that this pretty heavy material in which 163 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: we were exploring whether a victim of sexual abuse had 164 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: fabricated her case was incredibly popular with our audiences, and 165 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: one of the people who listened was a senior lawyer 166 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: who then got in touch with you. Who was that 167 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: and what did she want to know? 168 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: Well, in fact, a large number of people contacted me 169 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: after the podcast was released, and first of all was 170 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: a group of psychiatrists who were extremely concerned about the 171 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: material in the case and in the podcast, and they 172 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: started a petition calling for a review of the case. 173 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: That petition found its way to a very senior barrister 174 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: in Sydney called Ragney Mathur, and she agreed to take 175 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: on the mother's case pro bono. She then formed a 176 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: legal team which contacted me and essentially asked me to 177 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: provide them with any material I had that could be 178 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: relevant to this petition that they were planning to submit 179 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: to the governor. And so look, I did that. I 180 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: did have a lot of material. I had found a 181 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: lot of witnesses. They were interviewed on the podcast. Some 182 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: of them worked in the hospital where the young woman 183 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: was treated. A lot of them were her close friends 184 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,119 Speaker 2: or former friends, and they of course were vital witnesses 185 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: to events. So yeah, I did provide quite a lot 186 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: of material to the lawyers and put them in touch 187 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: with people who I thought could be crucial. 188 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: One of the pieces of material that's included with this 189 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: petition to the government is an extra or a series 190 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: of extracts from the diary of this young woman who 191 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: we've called Emily Johnson. This is a diary from when 192 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: she was fourteen years old, and her entries, which are 193 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: written in handwriting, indicate that she was being tied up 194 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: and abused in this shed. That the entries say things 195 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: like January twenty one, next time, do better, March seventeen, 196 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: night in shed. June nineteen counted three nights in shed 197 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: only water and chilies. What was actually going on on 198 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: these nights when this young woman said that she was 199 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: looked up in the chicken shed. 200 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: Well, that was a question that was actually never really 201 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: explored during the parents trial, which is one of the 202 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: things they say was a crucial lapse by their lawyers. 203 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: This diary was an absolutely crucial piece of evidence because 204 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 2: she told the police that not only had she been 205 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: tortured with tools in the shed over and over again, 206 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: but that she had recorded this torture in this diary, 207 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: and that she had buried the tools on the property 208 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: and that she had recorded. 209 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 3: The burying of the tools in the diary. 210 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: So about a year after she first accused her father, 211 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: she produced this diary to police saying that she just 212 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: found it, and then she took them to the property 213 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: and they sure enough dug up these buried tools. So 214 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: the diary authenticity is absolutely central to the case. And 215 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: I decided to do a kind of a forensic sort 216 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: of examination of this thing because this young woman was 217 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: a very acclaimed high performance athlete. 218 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 3: She was in the media, her sports results are quite 219 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 3: widely available. 220 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: And also the family, being all athletes, kept training diaries 221 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: and journals and all that sort of thing, and of 222 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: course had a lot of photos which had date stamps 223 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: on them. And so I got the parents' other daughter 224 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: to send me a lot of the material of that nature, 225 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: and I went through this diary and basically what it 226 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: showed was that there were one hundred and more than 227 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty entries where her account of where 228 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: she was on any given day, whether it was being 229 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: tortured in the shed or going into state to compete, was. 230 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: Just completely wrong. 231 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: She had herself being tortured in the shed when her 232 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: father was overseas or when she was actually interstate competing. 233 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: There are entries that show her being raped in this 234 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: chicken shed, when there's photos of her on that day 235 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: smiling at the winner's podium at a sporting event. And 236 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: so I understand that this diary is going to be 237 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: quite a crucial piece of evidence in this petition that's 238 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: been sent to the governor, because if it's shown to 239 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: be unreliable, then the question as to how it came 240 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: to be written, and the question of her credibility as 241 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 2: a witness, I think, you know, really becomes quite crucial 242 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: in this whole case. 243 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: M You can find our podcast Shadow of Doubt now 244 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening, and go to Shadow of Doubt dot 245 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: com dot au to read all of Richard's reporting.